Topic: s970 & s770 erratic behaviour / faulty [A] to [J] buttons - is yours affected?

[computec1349]

Good Aportation, my english is not good, I speak spanish.

I called to yamaha of México, and they said that this problem were in the PSR-s950 also. And this action of bottons is normal.
so not affect anything.

I think that the really problem is the skin of this model, painting is very delicate. and the other skin of s950 is more ressitant.

 

[Joe H]

There have been over 7900 views of the thread.  If this is "normal", why aren't more people posting stating that they had this experience with the S950 or are experiencing the same issues with the [A] - [J] buttons on their S970 or S770?        

There is obviously something wrong... Cameron probably got it right from the beginning saying it could be fixed in firmware code.  My brother and I agree with his assessment.  It is not normal for the keyboard to EXIT a screen for no reason... and especially when you do not want it to EXIT the current screen.

Attached is instructions for how to run the diagnostic test if anyone is interested in doing that.  Just keep in mind you can only press any button during the test just once. Pressing it a second time will give the NG message.   If a button sends a double-press message with a single press during the test, you will see the NG message.  This happened to me on two buttons the first time I ran the test but has not done it since then even though I have run the test several times now.

Joe H

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[androidgalaxyman]

There have been over 7900 views of the thread.  If this is "normal", why aren't more people posting stating that they had this experience with the S950 or are experiencing the same issues with the [A] - [J] buttons on their S970 or S770?        

There is obviously something wrong... Cameron probably got it right from the beginning saying it could be fixed in firmware code.  My brother and I agree with his assessment.  It is not normal for the keyboard to EXIT a screen for no reason... and especially when you do not want it to EXIT the current screen.

Attached is instructions for how to run the diagnostic test if anyone is interested in doing that.  Just keep in mind you can only press any button during the test just once. Pressing it a second time will give the NG message.   If a button sends a double-press message with a single press during the test, you will see the NG message.  This happened to me on two buttons the first time I ran the test but has not done it since then even though I have run the test several times now.

Joe H

Dear Joe,

i totally agree with your view. one of my colleague have said, this same problem seen on PSR SS950 too. but i couldn't understand why the problem is happening in PSR S770 / S 970 as well. here my comment on this, the firmware base technically same code for both numbers. may be some sort of enhancements have been done for S770 etc. because of the functionality like DJ option. Truly yamaha have to answer this question. This problem been earlier noticed by them, but not corrected as well. as we discussed earlier it could be a defective part or firmware. But i do insist, the yamaha not ready to resolve.

Thanks

Regards
androidgalaxyman

[billmc]

Joe, my S770 popped back to Main menu when I was pushing a button for the next song. In other words, I didn't have the keyboard in Jukebox mode (automatically playing one song after another). I was simply pressing the button for whatever the next song was and instead of playing that song, the menu backed out to Main (but with the desired song selected). Hope this tidbit helps in your data collection. It's a shame these keyboards do this. I, fortunately, seldom play live, so I'm not worried about changing voice/style mid-performance. But my prior S710 and S750 never did this. Something is wrong with how the processor in these keyboards reads or scans the menu buttons.

Thanks again for all you do.

[billmc]

Joe, I do have to admit that I never sat at my S710 and S750 and put them through a "button test" of repeated pressing these menu buttons in succession. On the other hand, and on both keyboards, I did filter through multiple songs, voices, and styles that I have collected down through the years to see which ones were, for me, "keepers" and these other 2 keyboards NEVER popped back to the Main menu screen. Of course, Eileen (and others) haven't seen this problem, so I was hoping I would get one that didn't exhibit this quirk. What I have to decide now, seeing as Yamaha doesn't seem to want to really address it any time soon, is whether I can "live with it" due to the way I use the keyboard (recording with sequencer) or whether I want to look for a used prior generation. If I was a live-performer, I definitely could not "live with it" if I needed to change voices, styles, or some other parameters during a performance. As always, just my 2 cents.

[textbook]

Well I finally got round to re-installing firmware version 1.04,   unfortunately I don't seem to have 1.03 so I downloaded 1.04 again and installed it,  and strangely though it's exactly the same version,  I've just pressed those buttons again about 40 times without having a single exit back to the main screen, and that was before I'd changed the voice select option to 'Open' only.

I must admit,  over the last few weeks when using those buttons I have had a tendency to press slightly on the outside, as on mine it definitely seemed to help,  so it's become second nature to do so now,  but I tried about 20 or 30 presses in the centre and I was a little surprised to find they seemed to work okay...very strange, though I'm certainly not complaining..lol

I'll see how it goes over the next few days, as Joe stated re-installing the firmware does not change your personal settings,  only thing is,  installing firmware unless it's necessary when upgrading the version is something one likes to avoid.

EDIT:  I've since tried many more times just pressing in the centre of the button, and it exited back to the main screen twice, so it's not cured it 100%,  but I certainly don't think it's as bad as it was previously, which I find very strange,  and indeed if I press near the outside of the button it never seems to happen.   I don't think it really matters whether that voice 'Open' 'Open/Select' option is set or not,   but I'm still of the opinion that a slight delay loop of a few mili seconds introduced in the firmware would likely resolve the problem for good...
ARE YOU LISTENING YAMAHA ? 

It's obviously being caused by the odd double contact, where it thinks you pressed the button twice,  if it were not, then it would immediately exit as soon as you selected a voice category if the voice select option was set to it's default of 'Open/Select'   and I can't say I've ever seen it do that,  on my 970 it usually exits out if I press in the centre after a few button presses,  but if I apply slight pressure to the outside as I press it or on the high point it works pretty much perfect. 

[Joe H]

Cameron,

Why is it you could figure out a solution in five minutes and Yamaha still doesn't get it?           

Doing s System Reset by holding down the right-most white key while turning on the power also helped.  This IS weird to say the least.  That's why one of my theories was a bug or glitch in the firmware installer program.

I've ran the diagnostic test a couple more times and cannot get a button failure (the NG - "No Good" message).  As I have stated above, unless this happens for the repair guy, he can't justify ordering parts.

Like you and a couple others who have reported here, doing the re-install of v1.4 firmware and a System Reset reduces the problem to a minimum.  Also pressing the button on the high-side does reduce the problem even more.

As Roger said, we may be at the end of the road in our quest to get a fix from Yamaha.   

Joe H

[textbook]

TBH Joe I don't know,  I spent most of my life designing circuits for various control systems from control circuit boards on washing machines to laser printers...lol before branching into Fruit Machines and then the design and manufacture of 4D theatres which is what my 2 sons now do in the business, they install throughout the world... do a search on 4D Emmersive Tunnel, there's only company in the UK that sells them...so easy to find.

Sadly you hit it on the head,  there's not enough people reporting the problem,  though I do think the issue is greater than the few on here might suggest.   This is my second one with the problem,  my vicar neighbours 770 also exhibits the same issues, and I've come across 2 of them in showrooms and both had the issue,  so you tell me.

Though I have little contact with others outside of this forum,   I personally have yet to put my hands on either a 770 or 970 that does not have the issue,  but in my case that's only 5 boards...lol,  ie. my 2, the neighbours, and the 2 in the store I tried.   My dealer said they had received 5 other reports from customers besides myself, but they are a very large dealership so would ship lots of them.
Maybe it is just a few isolated cases,  I honestly don't know,  one might ask how many people buy these boards and never use this forum so likely would not be aware, as it's not exactly something that makes it a deal breaker,  though that's a personal opinion.  However, I agree with Happy Jack it is something that may affect it's value or the potential for bouncing back if one ever sells it,  though I'm fortunate it wouldn't bother me too much,   but it could be a potential concern for some people.

I might give Yamaha UK a ring this week just to see if they have anything more to say since I last spoke to them,  the last time he more or less fobbed me off by telling me to press on the outside of the button and problem is solved..lol..adding they were monitoring the position ( I assume this thread ) He also said I could ask my dealer to replace it, which is what I did,  I never thought the second one would have the same issue, albeit not so bad as the first one,  on that first one I was lucky to press 4 or 5 times before it exited back to the main screen,  it was a real pain in the bum, at least it occurs less frequent on this one.

[Happy Jack]

TBH Joe I don't know,  I spent most of my life designing circuits for various control systems from control circuit boards on washing machines to laser printers...lol before branching into Fruit Machines and then the design and manufacture of 4D theatres which is what my 2 sons now do in the business, they install throughout the world... do a search on 4D Emmersive Tunnel, there's only company in the UK that sells them...so easy to find.

Sadly you hit it on the head,  there's not enough people reporting the problem,  though I do think the issue is greater than the few on here might suggest.   This is my second one with the problem,  my vicar neighbours 770 also exhibits the same issues, and I've come across 2 of them in showrooms and both had the issue,  so you tell me.

Though I have little contact with others outside of this forum,   I personally have yet to put my hands on either a 770 or 970 that does not have the issue,  but in my case that's only 5 boards...lol,  ie. my 2, the neighbours, and the 2 in the store I tried.   My dealer said they had received 5 other reports from customers besides myself, but they are a very large dealership so would ship lots of them.
Maybe it is just a few isolated cases,  I honestly don't know,  one might ask how many people buy these boards and never use this forum so likely would not be aware, as it's not exactly something that makes it a deal breaker,  though that's a personal opinion.  However, I agree with Happy Jack it is something that may affect it's value or the potential for bouncing back if one ever sells it,  though I'm fortunate it wouldn't bother me too much,   but it could be of some concern for some people.

I might give Yamaha UK a ring this week just to see if they have anything more to say since I last spoke to them,  the last time he more or less fobbed me off by telling me to press on the outside of the button and problem is solved..lol..adding they were monitoring the position ( I assume this thread...lol) He also said I could ask my dealer to replace it, which is what I did,  I never thought the second one would have the same issue, albeit not quite so bad as the first one,  on that first one I was lucky to press 4 or 5 times before it exited back to the main screen,  it was a real pain in the bum, at least it occurs less frequent on this one.

  That's a useful precis of the story so far, Cameron. 

   Yes, after the bad buttons issue, I opted to return my PSR-S770 for a refund.  Didn't want to be stuck with a keyboard whose lesser resale value would be a block to any future upgrades.   Fortunately my retailer was keen to show goodwill, and thanks to him for that fine gesture.

  As regards the advice of hitting the sweet spot (the highest tip) of the A-J buttons, I tried that and it proved too much of a distraction.  Plus one really needed a vacuum pump to suck out the dimples of my codger-type fingers.  Bear in mind, that one is  pressing something the size of a match head time after time.

  Hoping that Yamaha will fix this button issue one way or another.  Got plenty of other toys to keep me occupied in the meantime, so happy regards to all here

  Jack

 

   

 

[Roger Brenizer]

Hi Joe and Cameron,

As I have previously said, I've been following this thread with great interest, but don't own this keyboard so have never said very much.  Just one other comment by me that Joe referenced.

Most people probably think they are doing something wrong (operator error) and are not technically oriented like the three of us.  Therefore, they just pass it off and continue to play their keyboard until it happens again and continue the same process.

When I wrote and sold software, I had a select group of beta testers.  They were good beta testers and helped me to isolate problem parts of my code.  I could give this same software to the everyday employees and they would not report anything back to me.  They were always too embarrassed to say that anything might be wrong because they thought it was operator error and they didn't know how to use the program.

I suspicion that many owners of this keyboard fall into that category.  I will continue to follow this thread with great interest.

[textbook]

It's certainly a strange one Roger,  for example I re-installed the same version firmware earlier this evening, and though I admit I was a little sceptical when Joe said it seemed to improve things on his 970.  However having done the same thing, so in effect I'm still running the same version firmware but re-installed,  and further testing while setting up more registration banks does definitely show a big improvement,  which sort of defeats all logic...lol.   It hasn't cured it 100%  as it exited twice earlier, but it's certainly happening much less, indeed if it stayed like this I'd be perfectly happy.   Just twice in one evening is a **** of an improvement compared to how often it did it previously.

That's the main problem Roger,  it's not like something you can put your finger on,  we are all trying different things just to see if it alleviates the issue, as Joe has been doing to his credit.  In reality re-installing the firmware shouldn't make a scrap of difference,  but it has definitely improved things, so now we have to ask why ?

As far as I can see it's not changed any of my settings by re-installing it.   I just set up a extra 3 registration banks so thats 30 in total which in the process I went through quite a lot of various voice mixes with the odd change of octave to one voice to get the sound I liked, so a lot of button pushing and it never gave a problem,  though I do think my getting in the habit of pressing near the outside of the button every-time is playing a positive roll too, IOW I've learned how to press them to avoid the issue, and so I tend to do it automatically now.

I do think, the problem is caused by it picking up a double press of the button, so likely a hardware issue of some sort,  but at the same time I suspect a small time delay of  a few milli-seconds after detecting the first contact would possibly solve it too.
The problem is if your a manufacturer who say has sold say 50,000,  and you have few dozen with this issue but no-one else is reporting it,  you are unlikely to issue a potential firmware fix that may or may not fix it, and risk issues with all the other 49,800+ boards out there which to all intents and purposes are working fine.   Therefore the only option for Yamaha is to advise those afflicted by the issue to send them in for repair, and I suspect because it's not a major issue, not many will bother doing so, myself included, unless it begins to get worse of course, and I think they know that, as probably very few have been sent in for repair.

The big question is why should a re-install of the same version firmware noticeably improve things,   surely that is telling us something ?   clearing out some crap..lol some setting being reset...weird..Joe always reckoned that a system reset helped his 970,  coincidence or not,  it's so hard to tie it down...we need a Sherlock Holmes on the case.

I wouldn't mind so much if Yamaha acknowledged the issue, and came up with a few idea's,  but they won't do that as it would be admitting there's an issue with some models, and Yamaha Keyboards are perfect...right!....well their piano could be better...lol  sorry couldn't resist that..lol

[Joe H]

Roger,

As a beta tester it requires patience, persistence, and a willingness to perform redundant tasks.  And once you identify some quirk... you have to try to repeat the error by some identifiable procedure that can also be reproduced by the programmer.

This is not the case here.  It's like a cat and mouse chase.  Once in awhile we see the little critter, then she's gone. Only to reappear when you least expect it.

This is a tough nut to crack.

Regards,
Joe H

[Roger Brenizer]

There have been over 7900 views of the thread.  If this is "normal", why aren't more people posting stating that they had this experience with the S950 or are experiencing the same issues with the [A] - [J] buttons on their S970 or S770?        

My previous comment had to do with the above quote by you and not the technical issue itself.  Believe me when I say, I'm familiar with the testing process we are both used to performing.  I just think that the majority of keyboard players fall into the category of "I don't want to be bothered with this issue" and go on about their business of playing the keyboard.

On behalf of the members here, thank you for your persistence and diligence concerning this matter.  I, too, hope that Yamaha is listening.

[billmc]

   Perhaps Yamaha is using us as their beta-testers. It wouldn't be the first time. I recall some PSR keyboards having issues with their displays. And, as I've mentioned, I recall a whole slew of Yamaha digital pianos where the keys would break at the pivot, inducing Yamaha to replace the whole keybed for people, whether under warranty or not.

Having said all of that, I'm happy with my new S770. But I'm well aware of the manufacturer's desire to produce these keyboards with as much power as possible (bells and whistles to keep us happy) while keeping production costs low and profits high. It's always a balancing act for them. And it's a risk for us when we "upgrade", which usually has pros and cons to it. In many ways, I miss my old PSR3000, though it is certainly now obsolete and way behind the cutting edge of what these newest arrangers can do.

In my experiences, I was always pressing the middle of the button. Perhaps this is part of the problem. But I still think it is an issue that Yamaha should address. We may only be a few of the 50000 that have bought these keyboards, but many of us who love them faithfully upgrade every couple of years when the newest models come out. That should count for something. Something more than being a beta-tester.

[textbook]

Roger:
Yes I think your right, and the majority tend to ignore this small annoyance,  my neighbour for example has one registration bank set up,  all with various church organ voices, because being a church minister that's his main use for his 770 and I doubt he get 25% out of his 770 which it's capable of giving,  I don't think I've ever heard him play many other voices, organ and occasional piano and that's about it.   He certainly wasn't too bothered when I pointed this issue of exiting out of the voice category screen, he assumed it was supposed to do that.

billmc:
Do you find it helps if you do press the raised outside part of the button on your 770 ?  IOW does it mainly occur when pressed in the centre, which is certainly the case with the ones I've had,  though my first one would still do it occasionally if pressed on the high spot,  but on this 2nd 970, if I press on the outside of the button it's fine.

[Roger Brenizer]

I doubt this has anything with this issue, but it's just a thought, which is relative to our land surveying business.  We've owned a myriad of various electronic devices over the years, which interface with computers, robotic totals stations and data collectors.  Many of these devices had buttons that were a four-way toggle (left, right, up, down) and some were even a five way toggle adding the center of the button to the selection process.  Every direction toggled a different function and message sent or received from the device.

Now, having said that, many times only a few of these toggles were active and the other directions were supposed to do absolutely nothing.  The manufacturer simply built the device and that particular button for future use.  These buttons have been known to activate an entirely different message sent or received than intended, even though they were supposed to be disabled.  We then reported the problem and shortly thereafter received a firmware upgrade from the manufacturer.

I just thought I'd throw that in the mix for what it's worth.  Probably not much use, but a shot in the dark.

[Joe H]

Roger,

You must be reading my mind (or the other way around).  I'm going to send an "official report" to the tech support guy I started with (and copied to Steve Deming).  My intent is tell ****** what we know and have experienced and ask that he forward this information to Japan.

Sound like a plan?   

Joe H

[Roger Brenizer]

Hi Joe,

Yes, it definitely sounds like a very good plan to me.  Please keep us updated with your findings, as I'm sure you will.

[szwarc]

I have send my PSR-s970 to yamaha serwis (M. Ostrowski Sp. J. al. Armii Krajowej 5, 50-541 Wrocław tel. +48 71 79 74 605 email: serwis@muzyczny.pl http://muzyczny.pl in Poland).

Today my instrument come bac and THEY do nothing - they say that everything is ok. That this model (psr-s970) just have that and that they cant do nothing with this.

"The described occurrence is occasionally appearing at naciścnięciu of button in his lowermost part, it isn't the defect but the feature of this model which doesn't influence acting at the correct use of the button. The instrument stayed thoroughly tested and is truly efficient."

Instrument come back in unorginal paper and scratched casing.

I didn't accept the instrument and I sent him again.

Can you tell me what i can do whit this ?

[Joe H]

szwarc,

My concern has been that if a keyboard is taken to a Yamaha Service Center for testing and the buttons work OK during the Diagnostic Test... then we will be told that nothing is wrong with the keyboard.  And this is what has happened to you.

Now you have a keyboard that is scratched.  I suggest you file a complaint with your dealer, and Yamaha Tech Support and demand a replacement keyboard.

I am working on sending detailed information to Yamaha about all of our concerns including your report (but without any names).  It appears that Yamaha has chosen to not find a fix for this problem.  when the screen EXITS to a previous screen or the Main Screen when you do not want it to... this is not "normal" and is NOT a "feature" of the keyboard.   

I'm going to make one last effort and make an appeal to Yamaha to fix this problem, and will share that information here.

Joe H

[textbook]

szwarc.

As Joe stated,  I would most definitely be complaining quite loudly,  if I had sent a keyboard away for repair and it came back in that condition I would be demanding a new replacement.   That is really shameful of Yamaha Service and does not inspire much confidence in them does it,  and to not fix the problem either truly beggars belief.    Did you check serial number to ensure its the same  keyboard you sent them.?

After seeing how Yamaha treats your keyboard if it ever has to go back for repair, as shown in pictures above and with my experience with these A-E/F-J  buttons on my 970 which is compounded by Yamaha UK's  lack of willingness to admit there's a button issue on some of these models,  instead they suggest we press them on the high spot of the button only, they will then work     I for one am quickly losing any confidence I ever had in their products.   TBH I suspect this 970 will likely be my LAST Yamaha keyboard purchase, as out of 4 Yamaha keyboards purchased by myself since early last year only one was 100% perfect,  all the other three had issues.

The PSR-S443 I bought my granddaughter worked perfectly,  a 670 I bought myself was damaged on arrival, badly chipped on the front, with a Keybed thats was so poor it's keys were catching each other, so that went straight back.  the new T5 the 61 key version I bought lasted 3 days before the power supply board packed up rendering the keyboard dead, so that went back,  my 970 works okay except for this A-E/F-J button problem.   IOW out of 4 brand new Yamaha keyboards only one was perfect, which happened to be the cheapest one,  all the other 3 new ones all had issues,  which is a 25% success rate,  what confidence I had in Yamaha's keyboards is quickly disappearing.   

I translated it from Polish, the Yamaha Service Report above is basically saying  there is no defect,  but it's a normal feature of these  particular model keyboards when you press in the the lower/centre part of the buttons,   so there you have it,  there's nothing wrong at all,  we are just imagining it,    It's normal for it to exit out of the voice category screen on it's own. 
Truly unbelievable. If they want another video showing the problem,  I'd be happy to provide one, as I can replicate the issue quite easily by pressing them in the centre or lower part of the button.

[billmc]

Textbook, I loaded quite a few songs tonight (about 20 page-tabs worth) and pressed on the high side of the A-J buttons. Doing this, my keyboard never backed out of the Song menu back to the Main menu. But this doesn't convince me that there is not a problem. I agree with Joe who said that the keyboard should never leave a screen unless it is prompted to do so.

I'm an electronic technician by occupation and I would much prefer a hard failure than something like this that is illusive and intermittent. I know what it is like for a customer to complain that their unit is not working correctly and I can't get it to fail on my bench. In such cases (and in my field), we often subjected the complained-about units to vibration tests, heat tests, cold tests, and endurance tests to try to force them to fail at our facility. We weren't always successful. And there were times when we gave some customers a brand new unit. But based on what this thread says, I doubt a brand new unit would "cure" my particular problem. IMO, even if it is a matter of where on the button it is pushed, it is still a design failure and Yamaha should make it right, at least for the customers who complain about it.

[textbook]

billmc.

I agree, if they are pressed on the high point of the buttons mine generally works fine too,  and that basically is what Yamaha are saying,  and in their opinion it's merely a feature of these Yamaha keyboards,  even though it would seem this feature was not added to ALL 970/770 models...lol

So in the event we ever sell them, we just have to tell the purchaser,  to always press the button on the outside high point of the buttons,  it works fine, it's not faulty, it's a feature of these boards so nothing to worry about....because Yamaha said so.. which should allay any fears the purchaser might have.... would it convince any potential buyer ?...I think not. 
The fact is no matter how you paint it,  the **** things have button faults.

[szwarc]

The instrument was sent again for the service, I didn't collect him including standing. I think, that of button A-J they are out of order correctly and it is certainly the defect in the instrument rather than the feature. If was it is a feature there would be any description about it in the instruction.

[szwarc]

https://youtu.be/eoq0859RTIY

[Happy Jack]

The instrument was sent again for the service, I didn't collect him including standing. I think, that of button A-J they are out of order correctly and it is certainly the defect in the instrument rather than the feature. If was it is a feature there would be any description about it in the instruction.

  Hi, many thanks for your video link, which is very helpful:

https://youtu.be/eoq0859RTIY
 
    The intro text of your video says:

    "wada występująca w instrumentach YAMAHA PSR-S970. Próbuję ją zareklamować ale firma Yamaha broni się i twierdzi, że jest to cecha a nie wada."

 used an online translator:   Frequent defect occurring in the instruments YAMAHA PSR - S970 /S770.   I'm trying to advertise it but Yamaha defence says it is a feature and not a defect.

        (the addition of S770 is mine, since both models share this    feature).

    regards, Jack

[Joe H]

et al,

OK... here is what I have done.  I sent another email to Steve Deming at Yamaha USA.  It is a synopsis of all we have discussed here with excerpts from 71 posts highlighting our concerns and assessments of what the problem is and how to fix it.

I reproduce the email message to Steve below:

"Steve,
 
I said in my last email to you I wasn't going to bother you anymore regarding the erratic button issue on the PSR S770 and PSR S970 arranger keyboards, but I feel compelled to do so because the responses keyboard owners are receiving from Yamaha dealers and Tech Support that are having a negative impact on the PSR community.
 
There have been 225 posts and nearly 8500 views of the discussion regarding this button malfunction as of today 3-3-16.
 
Yamaha is making two statements that contradict one another:
 
1."There have been no reports of the problem"
2. "This is normal operation and a feature of the keyboard"
 
Here's what we know:
 
1. The erratic and unpredictable exiting out of the current screen we are working in is NOT "Normal"
2. The erratic and unpredictable exiting out of the current screen we are working in is NOT a feature of the PSR arranger.
3.  The button problem exists with ALL versions of firmware
4.  Doing a re-install of the firmware helps reduce the problem, but doesn't eliminate it
5.  Doing a System Reset helps reduce the problem, but doesn't eliminate it
6.  Changing the Voice Selection option in Config2 to OPEN ONLY helps reduce the problem, but does not eliminate it
7.  Knowledgeable and credible people with programming and beta testing experience understand there is a problem and that it can be fixed
 
Here's what else we know:
 
8.  People are becoming concerned and even angry with Yamaha for not taking this hardware/software problem serious
9.  People are loosing confidence in Yamaha as a company
10. People are concerned about the resale value of their keyboard with malfunctioning buttons
11. Some people have, or are considering returning their keyboards
12. Some people are abandoning the idea of buy a Yamaha keyboard and purchasing another brand
 
If I knew of someone else at Yamaha who could address this problem directly I would do that.  I know you have forwarded my previous correspondence, and appreciate that very much. We hope Yamaha gets serious about fixing the problem.  And yes... there is a problem and it is fixable. 
 
I've read the published statements from the President of Yamaha Corporation, and the company's philosophy. The President promotes integrity within the company and dedication to producing the highest quality products. I would hope (and I'm not referring to you in this case) Yamaha personnel would heed his advice.
 
http://www.yamaha.com/about_yamaha/corporate/message/index.html
 
 
Below are excerpts from 71 post on the PSR Tutorial Forum as of March 3, 2016
 
Please forward this latest information to whomever  has the authority and willingness address this serious problem
 
Regards,
Joe Hlifka"

[the 71 excerpts , excluding any names or member IDs followed my above message]

I don't know what else I can do at this point.   

Joe H

[textbook]

You are doing your best Joe, which I can assure you is greatly appreciated by all of us suffering this button problem.

I do think more Youtube videos might help, and so to further illustrate the button problem on these keyboards I too will also upload one to Youtube over the next few days, in English of course,  I might also upload one in French.

However I will video my neighbours 770,  which suffers from this problem terribly,  his 770 is far worse than my first 970,  on his 770 board it does it all the time, if one can manage 3 presses of the buttons without exiting to the main screen your lucky.  If it had been mine it would have gone back ages ago, but initially he didn't seem overly bothered, though I think even he is getting rather annoyed by it now, especially since I showed him how to set up multiple registration banks, so he's been doing more button pressing  just lately.

Thanks again Joe.

Cameron

[Roger Brenizer]

Thank you, Joe, for your undying, unwavering and persistent commitment to the members here.

[Joe H]

Roger,

The best any of us can do is speak the truth... and stand up for what is right.

 

Joe H

[Roger Brenizer]

Hi Joe,

You and I share the same philosophy in this regard.  There is no other way we should approach anything that confronts us in our lives.

Thank you, once again!

[Ed B]

Thanks Joe for your efforts.
So far I have not experienced this but I am watching this thread closely. I am pleased with the 970 so far the only complaint is the keyboard bed is clunky compared to some of the other models maybe that's to make it more piano like.
Regards
Ed B

[Joe H]

Ed B,

Thank you for your comment.  What makes this issue so difficult is that only a limited number of keyboards are effected, which suggests it is a hardware problem. 

But the real mystery lies in the FACT that reinstalling the current firmware and System Reset mitigate this unpredictable button behavior.  If it was strictly a hardware issue... I believe reinstalling the OS firmware or a System Reset would make NO difference at all.

It is baffling that many keyboards do not exhibit the button problem at all, and some are minimal, and yet there are others that are rather extreme with the button problem.   

Joe H

[Roger Brenizer]

Hi Joe,

I've been trying to deduce everything I have been following in this thread.  I'm sure that Yamaha keeps a record of what employee assembled and inspected each keyboard as well as what batch of parts were used in the construction of each individual keyboard also. 

So here's another shot in the dark.  Could this problem be traced to faulty workmanship in the assembly process by an employee or a group of employees and further, could this problem be related to a faulty batch of parts used on the affected keyboards?

[androidgalaxyman]

That's amazing Joe.

[Joe H]

et al,

I received a reply from Steve Deming at Yamaha USA.  He called me on the phone and we talked for about 20 minutes.  I think he may have been put off a little by my email.  He had told me before that Yamaha Engineers in Japan were aware of the button problem.  He reiterated that assertion today.  So... they are working on it!

He made a point to say that he has no control over the lack of information or misinformation from dealers or Yamaha repair centers in the USA or other countries.  He suggested we just RELAX and wait.  Don't bother taking your keyboard in for repairs... as my local repair guy said to ME... no repair bulletin has been issued, so therefore NO Yamaha Repair Center will know anything about the problem or how to fix it... yet.

I told him what I have done and how it improved my keyboard.  He said... that may BE the fix for all we know.  They may say there is nothing wrong... just re-install the firmware, or there may be a firmware fix.  All we can do is wait.

So I will again suggest to all who have the button problem.  Re-install your v1.04 firmware, then do a System Reset by holding down the right-most white key and power ON your keyboard. You may also try setting the Voice select option to OPEN ONLY in Config2.

As far as I'm concerned... I'm going to enjoy my S970 keyboard.  The button problem is so minimal after doing the re-install firmware and Reset procedure that I am going to let the issue rest.

The dealers know nothing, the repair centers know nothing; so don't spend anymore time on them.  Sooner or later we will hear from Yamaha.

Maybe the Moderator should lock this thread.  There is nothing more any of us can contribute.  Yamaha has heard us.  AND... there is nothing more to complain about at this point.

Time to go play some music!

 

Cheers,
Joe H 

[textbook]

Thanks Joe for the update,  and indeed I want to thank you for your persistence with this button problem, and understand your desire to get back to some playing,  I can see you feel your've taken it as far as possible.  Which is understandable.. so a big thanks for your persistence and contributions in this thread to date Joe,  your efforts have been much appreciated.

However, I don't think the topic should be closed,   as others are still reporting the problem as seen by the 2 or 3 new members posts in this thread recently,  otherwise members who find they have the problem will simply be starting new topics highlighting the problem. So I think it's better if everything relating to this button problem is kept in this one thread. 

I certainly think it's a little premature to be thinking about closing it,  people that don't have the problem don't have to read it,  but there are still a few of us who still need a thread where we can share information and make suggestions which may or may not help.  Indeed our recent discovery about re-installing the firmware which seems to help shows there's still a need for this thread to continue,  if only to share information on this button problem as the issue certainly hasn't gone away, as there are 19 individual users just in this thread who have reported button issues, plus I know of 4 others,  in fact I believe there are lots more out there with this issue....ooops..sorry...I mean feature..lol

What do other members with this problem feel ?  Do you think this thread should be closed or continue ?

For myself,  I'm quite happy to take it forward, as I too can also be quite persistent.  When I get chance I may open up my 970 and take a look at those buttons, maybe I can learn something, or maybe not, and take a few pics.  I'm certainly not too concerned about voiding the warranty.

Cameron

[Joe H]

HI Cameron,

I think Yamaha has failed in one regard... they could have issued a memo to ALL dealers and Service Centers around the world letting them know Engineers in Japan have received reports of the button problem and are investigating the problem.  That should be an easy thing to do.  Steve could also have posted here himself or directed someone else to do so and state publicly "on the record" what he told me on the phone privately.  This is a no brainer.

I have no arguments with continuing this thread.  Steve DID also say that if he hears anything new regarding the button problem he will personally let me know. But why not come on this Forum and post the info for everyone to read? 

I am playing my keyboard and really liking it.  I'm working on a new arrangement using the arpeggiator and LIVE CONTROL knobs.  I just love my new keyboard!

 

Joe H

[Happy Jack]

  Hi all interested users.

    All below is entirely my personal opinion: 

   I think it would be a mistake to close this topic for the following reasons: 
 
     1:  Any future reporters of the button blight issue on their PSR-S770/S970 might think their own faulty keyboard is unique in the button blight respect.  They might feel aggrieved to learn later of many similar complaints.

     2:  Better, surely, to wait until Yamaha gives a definitive (written) acknowledgement of this issue and inform us of their plans to rectify the fault, as it seems to me that Yamaha are hoping that ignoring this problem will make it disappear.   

    3:  Where do the Yamaha keyboard stockists stand on this issue? Have they taken the time to try the button test to all their PSR-S770/S970 models, and can now say without doubt that they are selling only the fully working models?

     4:  Where is Yamaha's opposite number of Mike Martin of Casio, who would have rolled back his sleeves, come online, and sorted this problem in the first instance, rather that seeing it creep into the multiple thousand reads?

     5: This topic's heading will be familiar to all regular members by now, so anyone who wishes to avoid it knows not to click on it.

     Many thanks to our own Joe H for bearing the stress of keeping this issue going. Thanks also to  Joe W..... who runs this great Yamaha PSR Tutorial forum.

      Seems to me that the big fix for the buttons problem is a way off, (maybe even not coming at all). I have just acquired a pre-owned Yamaha PSR-E433 for the time being as another PRS-S770 costs too much money to risk getting stuck with one of the runts of the PSR-S770 litter.

     Consider this: should you try to sell your treasured PSR-S770 / 970 via a popular auction site: you might now expect to be asked:

    Are the A-J buttons of this instrument fully functioning with no issues?  
 
        regards, Jack

[androidgalaxyman]

  Hi all interested users.

    All below is entirely my personal opinion: 

   I think it would be a mistake to close this topic for the following reasons: 
 
     1:  Any future reporters of the button blight issue on their PSR-S770/S970 might think their own faulty keyboard is unique in the button blight respect.  They might feel aggrieved to learn later of many similar complaints.

     2:  Better, surely, to wait until Yamaha gives a definitive (written) acknowledgement of this issue and inform us of their plans to rectify the fault, as it seems to me that Yamaha are hoping that ignoring this problem will make it disappear.   

    3:  Where do the Yamaha keyboard stockists stand on this issue? Have they taken the time to try the button test to all their PSR-S770/S970 models, and can now say without doubt that they are selling only the fully working models?

     4:  Where is Yamaha's opposite number of Mike Martin of Casio, who would have rolled back his sleeves, come online, and sorted this problem in the first instance, rather that seeing it creep into the multiple thousand reads?

     5: This topic's heading will be familiar to all regular members by now, so anyone who wishes to avoid it knows not to click on it.

     Many thanks to our own Joe H for bearing the stress of keeping this issue going. Thanks also to  Joe W..... who runs this great Yamaha PSR Tutorial forum.

      Seems to me that the big fix for the buttons problem is a way off, (maybe even not coming at all). I have just acquired a pre-owned Yamaha PSR-E433 for the time being as another PRS-S770 costs too much money to risk getting stuck with one of the runts of the PSR-S770 litter.

     Consider this: should you try to sell your treasured PSR-S770 / 970 via a popular auction site: you might now expect to be asked:

    Are the A-J buttons of this instrument fully functioning with no issues?  
 
        regards, Jack

Thanks dear Joe and True effort. From my opinion , until the thing sorted our by yamaha we shouldn't close the thread.  The reason as you mentioned , the dealers intend to hide the real problem in the keyboard. my concern the dealer as well the Service guys not able to understand the issue what we are saying, its truly painful to prove them. As per your conversation with steve, we will wait for the firmware update . But anyhow we can wait for the other users also post their problems , if its case of different scenario. 

Hi Textbook

i totally agree with your view. but selling newly bought keyboards will give lose for buyers like me! 

Thanks

Regards
androidgalaxyman

[szwarc]

Let us not close the subject.
Mine keyboard is now in the service and penie won't be able to fix it.
The service claims, that is everything ok !
Services don't have no information to this subject.
Yamaha is not giving any solutions.
If I could now choose I wouldn't only buy PSR-S 970. I wil buy  Korg Pa3X

[billmc]

I've found another fault with my S770, unfortunately. I'm learning to play, "Waiting for a Girl Like You" by Foreigner. I'm playing it in the key of D-flat. There are times in the song when I am transitioning from Fm to Bbm and when I do, the rhythm momentarily stops, as if I had the rhythm section on "sync only." It should not do this. The rhythm should always play unless I push the Stop or Ending buttons. It is as if the keyboard does quite know how to go to the Bbm chord. So it momentarily stops and then starts again. Frustrating.

I'm going to try a few other songs, but I'm growing more and more concerned about the "overhaul" of the S-series and what Yamaha may have done or not done to it.

[Joe H]

billmc,

Is it just doing that with this one style, or is it happening with a song file?

Joe H

[Joe H]

szwarc,

We have already been told the problem is being looked at in Japan.  Until Yamaha determines a fix... there is no point in taking your keyboard in for repair because Yamaha Service Centers will not find a repair bulletin on how to fix the button issue. 

Re-installing the firmware and doing a system reset seems to have fixed mine by the way.   

Joe H

[szwarc]

I think, around Yamaha isn't able to solve a problem. And isn't upset with us completely.
I regret, around I bought this instrument.
I intend to put around in Poland, that Yamaha isn't caring for its customers and is selling efective instruments.
How my PSR-S 970 will only come back from the service - I will sell it and I will buy KORG Pa3X

[Joe H]

szwarc,

Joe H wrote: "Re-installing the firmware and doing a system reset seems to have fixed mine by the way".

I still think you should give this a try.... what do you have to loose?

 

Joe H

[szwarc]

Not yet I have an instrument - farther is in the service. They will be replacing the scratched casing which they destroyed - it is supposed to last till 6 weeks!! To 27 April!!
Yamaha is a company which is bashing its customers on the ***

[EileenL]

Would have to strongly disagree with you. It is not Yamaha themselves but the people involved with the servicing. Here in the UK we have excellent Technical support and repair service. We also don't appear to have the button problems either. I have spoken to a couple of dealers who have not heard of it.

[szwarc]

"I have spoken to a couple of dealers who have not heard of it. " it's funny - hahahhaha - for liar - they couldn't hear or I don't want to hear. The problem on the 100% is and bulletins are saying, around dumb these are a feature rather than a defect. They aren't upset with customers are only lying.

[tbeltrans]

Though I have not (yet) experienced this button problem, reading this thread it is sounding as if it might be a hardware AND firmware issue.  Parts are made specifications regarding measured tolerances.  That means that there will be at least some variance among the same parts as to how they function.  With buttons, there is a certain amount of "bounce" when they are pressed and before they settle.  Usually, there is a "debouncing" circuit associated with the input of the button signal to the circuit board, along with some simple debouncing code in the firmware to determine if the button press that was detected is real.  This involves detecting the initial press signal and then waiting to see if any others follow.  There is timing involved in how long to wait for any following press signals, and that timing is crucial to triggering properly in response to the button press.  It may be that the timing of this algorithm is not sufficient to account for variances in the parts themselves.  It also might be that, since this is a relatively low cost product (in the grand scheme of manufactured things of this nature), there may be no debouncing circuitry, so that the firmware alone must do it all.  In that case, the timing of the debounce algorithm is even more critical.

Yamaha's choices seem to be to either use more expensive buttons (i.e. less "slop" in the trigger signal of a press) and/or rework the debounce algorithm in the firmware to accommodate the variances among the buttons.  If they purchased a large amount of these buttons (i.e. if they are not using just in time manufacturing procurement), then they either would need to negotiate a return of these to their vendor or "eat" the problem cost and either continue to use them as is in their products or replace them with higher quality buttons. 

In either case, I believe the firmware debounce algorithm will most likely need to be adjusted.  That would certainly be the most cost effective and easiest solution all around.

Tony