Author Topic: Wave Rom Sizes  (Read 6614 times)

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Offline voodoo

Wave Rom Sizes
« on: October 30, 2015, 07:17:34 AM »
Hi together,

I found that we had already a thread about wave ROM sizes earlier this year. Perhaps we can update the information.

  http://sandsoftwaresound.net/psr-product-family (older post)
  http://sandsoftwaresound.net/arranger-memory-one-more-time/ (new post)

Together we get the following information:

  • PSR-1500: 16 MB
  • PSR-3000: 64 MB
  • PSR-S550: 32 MB
  • PSR-S650: 64 MB
  • PSR-S710: 64 MB
  • PSR-S910: 128 MB
  • PSR-S750: 256 MB
  • PSR-S950: 256 MB
  • PSR-S770: ?
  • PSR-S970: ?
  • Tyros 2: 192 MB
  • Tyros 3: 256 MB
  • Tyros 4: 512 MB
  • Tyros 5: 768 MB

So speaking of "sound quality" one sees that the S750 and S950 had the same amount of sample ROM (and I think that this is kept for the S770, that has nearly the same voices as compared to the S950), whereas the Tyros 4 and 5 have much more.

Whatever you mean with "quality", the larger keyboards have more voices, and in case of SA2, also better (more complex) voices.

Uli
« Last Edit: October 30, 2015, 07:21:48 AM by voodoo »
Yamaha PSR-S970 (sold)
Yamaha Genos (ordered)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline pjd

Re: Wave Rom Sizes
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2015, 11:06:06 AM »

Hi Uli --

Thanks for posting this summary. Just wanted to add a few observations.

The wave ROM sizes are the (total) physical capacity of the memory devices that hold waveforms and feed the waveforms to the hardware tone generator.

Yamaha uses a compression technique that packs sample data into the physical wave memory. On the Motif-side of things, I estimated the compression ratio as 2+ to 1. It's good to keep the compression factor in mind when making comparisons to uncompressed waveforms (e.g., sample libraries).

Next, yeah, the S750 and S950 wave memories have the same physical capacity. Yamaha got a better price by buying the same size memory in larger quantities. The S750 very likely has less waveform data. So, physical size is not an absolute indicator of the number and size of the internal waveforms.

The S750/S950 OS most likely reserves space in the wave memory for voice samples that are loaded from an expansion pack. That's one reason why it takes so long to install an expansion pack and why a reboot is necessary.

The information in the table was taken from service manuals. The two question marks can be filled in once the official Yamaha S770/S970 service manual is available. Unless someone wants to take a screwdriver to their new S770/S970 -- something that I do NOT recommend. :-)

Take care -- pj

P.S. OT: I just took a look at the internals of Krome, Kronos and PA500 in a recent post at http://sandsoftwaresound.net/

Offline capriz_68

Re: Wave Rom Sizes
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2015, 12:44:45 PM »
Write to me if you need to receive service manual for the analysis.
capriz68@yandex.ru
"You are delusion so deep that even delusion about the depth of his delusion."
 

Offline Volkmin

Re: Wave Rom Sizes
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2015, 05:11:24 AM »

  • PSR-S770: ?
  • PSR-S970: ?


PSR S770 and PSR S970, wave rom are aprox 400 MB.
Croatia
 

Offline musicman100

Re: Wave Rom Sizes
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2015, 10:53:24 PM »
How do you know that from the device manuals
 

HSL

  • Guest
Re: Wave Rom Sizes
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2015, 04:42:33 AM »

Next, yeah, the S750 and S950 wave memories have the same physical capacity. Yamaha got a better price by buying the same size memory in larger quantities. The S750 very likely has less waveform data. So, physical size is not an absolute indicator of the number and size of the internal waveforms.


128 MB, 256 MB, 512 MB of "flash" memory nowadays cost peanuts (= cents, = NOTHING), even those chips manufactured with ultra rare kryptonite plated transistors. Especially if they are installed in a device that costs 10002000 (not to mention the 30004000 of a 768 MB Tyros 5). 768 MB? Wow: what a mind boggling capacity in 2015! Deo gratias! ("Deo gratias" is latin language and means "thanks to God")

The cost is so irrelevant that it makes sense, to ease and simplify logistic and production, to equip a 1000 model (S750) with the same chip of a 1700 model (S950) and leave it partially unused (S750 has less usable waveform data than S950), in order to make a marketing differentiation.

You basically segment the market (= take more money from those willing to pay for it) with "almost the same" hardware product + crippled firmware in order to disable functionality in the product sold at discount prices.

This practice is seen in countless "electronic" products, where top of the line models are usually sold at a much higher price above the actual manufacturing cost.

Offline EileenL

Re: Wave Rom Sizes
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2015, 06:29:36 AM »
And you know this for sure from Yamaha do you.

Offline marius9

Re: Wave Rom Sizes
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2015, 02:41:56 AM »
I can confirm that in this world that we live in, such practices are happening and bring good yearly revenues to many companies. There are companies (and I know from inside) that put their same product in different packaging and sell it for different price. It is the truth.
About Yamaha, I cannot tell. Maybe they do the same. Maybe not. Or maybe the truth is in the middle.
What I know is that indeed we live in the days when the memory cost is very low and should not be ignored.
For example, if we speak about the Wave ROM, the growth is normal to happen but do not expect miracles. R&D keeps the goodies until the competitors come to a certain level. The implementation of new technologies means also changes in production lines, which gives extra costs and mass production problems if it is not done correctly.
About the internal memory, because the thread is in the PSR S770-S970 zone: 13 MB it is very, very low. Nowadays 13 MB means nothing. Even if you utilize it for MIDI or Style files. For an arranger which has the .mp3 and .wav technology on them and no HDD or SSD capabilities, 13 MB is like a joke. For example Korg has in their PA600 2 GB of internal memory (and it is not a 2015 product). Internal memory for any arranger keyboard of any price level should not be less than 1 GB. This is a must. You don't have and cannot use a USB stick all the time: what if I have to use an iPAD and an external MIDI controller - what do I do then?
About the expansion memory, we have to give credit to Yamaha that coming from the last models there is a big improvement. Yamaha PSR-S950 and A3000 have 512 MB memory for new voices, which seems to be bigger than even the new flagship from Korg (PA4X, which has 400 MB).

Many users are more than satisfied with the memory they have. But the trend is for being able to customize you keyboard to your needs. And different people have different needs. Yamaha, most of all the others, understands that.

We will assist in the coming years to a lot and more technology improvements. For sure the competition is not sleeping. But Yamaha is on the right track. There is a lot of space to get better though.
If Yamaha will improve for the keyboards below the Tyros level and even for Tyros in: the memory size, style creator at a professional level, sampling import capabilities, touch screen technology with multitasking, real internal voice editing with real control (with possibility to save it, but not as a new voice), voice creator directly on the keyboards without need of a computer (with mono samples legato, with being able to establish sample loop directly from keyboard), Android and Mobile Windows support (for the devices that support core MIDI) - for sure will not have any competitor to be afraid of.
Also, if Yamaha started the Packs for different zones of the World, can improve and personalize even more (some really need improvement, mostly on the ethnic voices - some do not sound natural or are very different than the original instruments).


Offline pjd

Re: Wave Rom Sizes
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2015, 06:13:53 AM »
Hi --

Thanks to Capriz and Uli for helping out with this one!

Here's the short answer to Uli's original question about wave memory size in the PSR-S770 and PSR-S970:

    PSR-S770     512MBytes
    PSR-S970       2GBytes

Yamaha switched from a wave memory interface with separate address and data busses to a single serialized bus that passes both the address and data. Yamaha applied for a patent on this technique. See:

    http://sandsoftwaresound.net/serial-mem-tone-gen/

for more details.

Both the S950 and S970 have separate memories for audio style data (and the operating system). The memory capacities are:

    PSR-S950     512MBytes
    PSR-S970     768MBytes

Access is also serialized -- one reason why loading is relatively slow versus storing the OS in a full parallel memory on the CPU bus.

As Uli and Capriz pointed out, the big news is a new tone generator -- the SWP70. The serialized wave memory is part of the new chip.

There are a few other significant changes that have implications for future products. A thread under "Next Yamaha Keyboard" seems appropriate.

As usual, there's a few more details at http://sandsoftwaresound.net

All the best and congrats to folks with the new SWP70!  :D :D :D

-- pj

Offline voodoo

Re: Wave Rom Sizes
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2015, 07:52:08 AM »
As usual, there's a few more details at http://sandsoftwaresound.net

Thank you for your interesting discussion, as always.

Uli
Yamaha PSR-S970 (sold)
Yamaha Genos (ordered)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline Volkmin

Re: Wave Rom Sizes
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2015, 09:15:49 AM »
However, one should understand the electronic technology that is based on the internal wave ROM architecture. I wrote that the S770 wave ROM 400 MB, which will be the closest to the truth. Perhaps wrongly evaluates the total volume, internal wave ROM + external expansion! It is however different indexed. For example MOTIF XF has 768MB internal wave ROM; do you think Yamaha S970 tied with top class workstation? I think not. We can compare the relative price of the product box. We also like to express; S770 internal wave ROM aprox 400MB + expansion slot new custom voices aprox 400 + 158 = 558MB! Did you see the difference? Internal sound content - this is what we call internal wave ROM. Extras on the expansion of memory or audio styles - do not belong to this form of calculation "the wave."

The difference in sound module S770 and S970 is not so different, and I think there is no question about 2GB internal wave ROM content. I think this is wrong evaluates objective value. S970 used VCM DSP processors that improve sound image, but this will increase the content. What is the Yamaha sound chip built into the generator - internal wave ROM, and everything else are expansions. If I'm close to the truth, then the S970 could have internal wave ROM aprox (S770 approx 400MB) 500-550MB, but not more. I'm a fan of Yamaha keyboards. My aim is only to know what I have, when I play. One should not exaggerate.

Best regards

Volkmin
Croatia
 

HSL

  • Guest
Re: Wave Rom Sizes
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2015, 09:16:31 AM »
How can be explained the difference in flash rom size between S770 and S970  (512 Vs 2048 MB)?

The S970 has 352 MB of additional rom for expansion voices, it has probably ~100 MB of flash rom for expansion audio styles (yet to be released, if ever).

So in total the S970 uses ~450 MB more than the S770. Then you have the extra sample rom used by the extra voices included in the 970 but not the 770. I guess that this extra sample rom could be around 60 MB, bringing the grand total of additional used rom to 512 MB.

There is still a whole 1 GB missing (which is more than the entire wave rom of a Tyros 5).

How can be explained this waste of 50% of the installed rom?

The only explanation I find is that the 2GB chip costs so little that it does not matter if this is wasted for 50%. Probably the 1GB chip was off standard for Yamaha, and the effort to have one more SKU was not worth the few cents you could possibly save on the part.

Think about it: the S970 has more than double of the flash rom of the flagship Tyros 5, and yet it stays unused because otherwise Yamaha could not ask 3500 for the Tyros

Marketing uber alles (this is German).
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Wave Rom Sizes
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2015, 09:32:46 AM »
HSL,

As I state in pj's new thread, it's intentional...  this is a marketing strategy by Yamaha... to give us more Expansion Memory 3 years from now in the next PSR model.   We won't be able to upgrade to a larger memory module... we will have to buy a new keyboard instead  :P

Joe H
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 09:34:15 AM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline Volkmin

Re: Wave Rom Sizes
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2015, 12:05:57 PM »
The S970 has 352 MB of additional rom for expansion voices, it has probably ~100 MB of flash rom for expansion audio styles (yet to be released, if ever).

No, no ... I do not need it in such a way comparable. Internal wave ROM is a separate, separate from the expansion memory. As I said, he moves within 500-550Mb capacity - tone generator is filled with default sound set, and the set is called internal wave ROM content. Expansion memory is a separate factor. It is separated from the structure IWR content. Exp memory is about 510MB usable. At S770 it is about 158MB. These are different things being said here. Audio styles too, separate frum IWR content block.

Best regards

Volkmin
Croatia
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Wave Rom Sizes
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2015, 01:10:58 PM »
Volkmin,

Likewise Yamaha has left room in the wave ROM to grow as well.  Again... Yamaha could have used it all in the S970, but lets consider the fact that there will be more Panel Voices added in 3 three years and probably increased Expansion Memory too.

The PSR line won't have external plug-in memory so it makes sense to me that Yamaha redesigned the new PSRs with room to grow.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline Volkmin

Re: Wave Rom Sizes
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2015, 01:39:42 PM »
Joe, I understand your optimism. I am also optimistic, we must nonetheless be much more realistic. It's not for me to say that it is impossible (at the moment) ratio products shows how the inputs, outputs new product. But ... I tell you all the time talking about the facts. What many mixed in this story, has nothing to do with the addition of an internal wave sample - within the tone generator chip sound. What is pre-installed as default base (charge material sample volume) is not the same as (for example) in addition to the form of extended memory, memory audio styles etc.

With my remark that the S770 has a clean (approximate) 400MB, this does not diminish its value (product). I speak to exaggerate as presenting "inaccurate" information (what she said - she said). It should be understood that the raw audio material saved in the synthesis of PCM in the Yamaha product, linear value is in a compressed form, however limited, for you as a user is very important that information about the linear pattern, and it is in the extremes - lower. It is not so important, but ok, who was interested in the mathematical value - should ask directly Yamaha.

I think it is finally thrown out a very good product in the form of S770 / 970, but I also believe that it is possible to improve a lot more to us customers some necessary additions. I believe that experts from Yamaha when - then take into account the opinions of their users.

best regards

Volkmin
Croatia
 

Offline pjd

Re: Wave Rom Sizes
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2015, 02:04:15 PM »
Hi --

Wow! I didn't expect this much "energetic" discussion about Yamaha's marketing intentions.  ;)

I just want to offer one technical point. Yamaha's tone generators have a dedicated bus between the tone generator (TG) chip and the wave memory:

                                     DSP RAM
                                           |
        Wave memory -------- TG -------- CPU and other things
                                           |
                            Working memory (Sx70 only)

If an expansion pack contains voice samples, the voice samples must be loaded into the wave memory first. Then, the TG can play the samples. This is the only way that voice samples are played. The wave memory in the S970 consists of two 8Gbit integrated circuits -- one for the high byte, one for the low byte.

My point is this. Yamaha must reserve space in the wave memory for samples to be loaded from an expansion pack. Yamaha's engineers are quite conservative. Thus, they most likely reserve 512MB in the wave memory.

The same is true for audio style data. There isn't a block or separate device called "expansion memory." It's all done on a reservation basis. Although it's difficult to speculate from schematics alone, I feel confident that this is Yamaha's approach.

BTW, the new SWP70 may implement a new (patented) sample compression scheme. So, cha, the same waveforms may take even less physical room in the Sx70 workstations.

Hmm. I guess that's two technical points.  :)

All the best to everyone, pj

P.S. The CPU has to load the wave memory through the tone generator.
 

Offline pjd

Re: Wave Rom Sizes
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2015, 03:11:13 PM »
This idea popped up during dinner...

What if there is a new compression algorithm and the new compression scheme has a lower compression ratio (i.e., the compressed samples take more space), but produce better sound quality. This would trade space for a better audio experience. Just another way to use "extra" memory capacity.

There really is so much about the implementation that we don't know.

All the best, pj
 

HSL

  • Guest
Re: Wave Rom Sizes
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2015, 11:23:56 PM »
S770: 512 MB of wave rom, 160 MB reserved for expansion pack. Up to 512 - 160 = 352 MB for factory voices wave data. Nobody knows if these 352 MB are fully used in practice. Probably they are. If we assume a 2:1 compression ratio of sample data, we obtain ~750 MB of linear wave data.

S970: There are some more preset voices. Let's assume 15% more of sampled content: 352*1.15 = 405 MB.  Let us add ~100 MB reserved for possible future audio styles expansion packs, let us add 512 MB of flash rom for expansion voices ---> 1024 MB of flash rom.

The S970 has therefore 1024 MB left unused (which is 50% of its installed flash rom chips).

What's the point of improving the compression algorithm when:

1) You do not even use the installed flash rom
2) The volume of data to be stored is so small (~1 GB) that the storage chips needed cost peanuts anyway.

So why bother about compression?

Further considerations:

The main differentiating factors of a Tyros 5 vs any other lower ranked/priced PSR are:

1) More/better quality voices (including SA2)
2) Some more goodies (like 3rd right voice, ensemble functionality, ..)

These are implemented with more flash rom chips (which in case of the S970 are already there physically installed into the chassis) and firmware (which could be copied as well for zero additional cost, and with clear evidence it is indeed the same with disabled functionality with compile-time switches).

So from a manufacturing cost point of view there is basically nothing that prevents a S970 (and possible also other lower ranked PSRs) to perform (= sound) similarly like a Tyros.

P.S.: Since the firmware and (most of) the samples have always been the same since countless generations of PSR/Tyros their initial development cost has already been amortized, long ago!!
 

Offline voodoo

Re: Wave Rom Sizes
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2015, 01:45:42 AM »
So from a manufacturing cost point of view there is basically nothing that prevents a S970 (and possible also other lower ranked PSRs) to perform (= sound) similarly like a Tyros.

This is what I think, too, It is mainly the firmware which differentiates the classes. For example: The Tyros supports the MFC10 midi foot pedal by using a special midi-note to internal-function  translation function. However, the software of the PSR looks identically, except that this tab for the MFC10 configuration is missing. This is obviously only a software (or compile time) switch to hide this function in the PSR. It would cost nothing to activate it.

And now my question: Why is the Tyros so huge and heavy, when the same function would fit in the case of a PSR keyboard, even if you add the speaker system. Is it only the intention that it looks professional and expensive? (I think, that this is an important point. No professional entertainer would play a gig with a keyboard looking like a PSR-E model.)

But when many forum members say "for small gigs I use the PSR, because my Tyros is too heavy to transport", Yamaha could make the Tyros more attractive by making it smaller.

(Sorry, slightly off topic....)

Uli
Yamaha PSR-S970 (sold)
Yamaha Genos (ordered)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline marcodg

Re: Wave Rom Sizes
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2016, 01:45:44 AM »
This is what I think, too, It is mainly the firmware which differentiates the classes. For example: The Tyros supports the MFC10 midi foot pedal by using a special midi-note to internal-function  translation function. However, the software of the PSR looks identically, except that this tab for the MFC10 configuration is missing. This is obviously only a software (or compile time) switch to hide this function in the PSR. It would cost nothing to activate it.

And now my question: Why is the Tyros so huge and heavy, when the same function would fit in the case of a PSR keyboard, even if you add the speaker system. Is it only the intention that it looks professional and expensive? (I think, that this is an important point. No professional entertainer would play a gig with a keyboard looking like a PSR-E model.)

But when many forum members say "for small gigs I use the PSR, because my Tyros is too heavy to transport", Yamaha could make the Tyros more attractive by making it smaller.

(Sorry, slightly off topic....)

Uli

The material of the tyros is heavier. The key are semi weighted and the case is in aluminium i think other something heavier than the plastic of the psr series. The tyros are Plastik lighted button and more connectic. The Psr serie are made with gummies. So i think it is the whole reasons.
kind regards
 

Offline hoang tam

Re: Wave Rom Sizes
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2017, 11:49:46 PM »
Dear brothers all VKB.
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New Year's Eve moment scorpions will announce important messages to you Keyboard
Along with the PSR-S710, has successfully upgraded MITUMI PSR-S770 line with the ability to read 512MB sample, remove the memory limit sample of this line with the PSR-S970. We are sure this is good news for you using S770, the brothers are struggling, headache with 160MB memory with huge losses of S970 512MB memory. From now after the upgrade, the sample used in the S970 completely used on S770 with a maximum capacity of 512MB.

Next year there will be more products from MITUMI launched simultaneously to support up to you keyboard.
Thank you always supporting MITUMI. We are fully confident and secure products and services provided by MITUMI is directed to you, is to serve the maximum passion you play keyboards.
You need to learn to connect with us through two communication channels on facebook with the following:
Find on Facebook with keyword: mitumi.vn or 0934229022
Here's brothers all questions will be answered most enthusiastically. But we certainly do not comment on price as well as the issue price. Please brothers sympathy because this is a sensitive issue and we do not intend to disclose the entire security reasons.

New Year wish all the success you thousands. Doing my best, quality oriented services to our community is always at the forefront in the field of musical instruments in Vietnam.

Thank you very much.
MinhTuan89 - MITUMI Center
Ha Lam - Thang Binh Dinh Dau 10h40 Festival Night 30, 2017
http://vietkeyboard.net/showthread.php?t=90269&page=2&p=704269#post704269
« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 11:51:05 PM by hoang tam »