PSR Tutorial Forum
Genos (12 Boards) => Genos - General => Topic started by: keynote on April 06, 2023, 05:17:09 PM
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Here's the list of new Yamaha products that will be showcased at NAMM 2023 at the Anaheim Convention Center in Anaheim, CA on April 13-15, just a few days away. Disappointing for arranger keyboardists and traditional workstation users, since there will be no update to either the Montage or the Genos, unfortunately. PS: The synthesizer that was talked about from Yamaha's March 1st newsletter is the new CK line of keyboards. So I guess the MODX+ addition that was released months ago doesn't count?
https://usa.yamaha.com/namm/ You will probably need to scroll down a bit to see the new products.
All the best, Mike
Another PS: So the next real opportunity for Yamaha to make Waves 2.0 a reality will be in October/November 2023, at the Yamaha Keyboard Club event in the U.K. or NAMM 2024 on January 25-28 also in Anaheim, CA. Oh, well. :(
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Thanks Mike. As suspected. The good thing is that our old keyboads still work😀 Genos is still exciting.
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They mention the new P-S500 digital piano and the CK series, both of which had already been announced recently. It says “check back on April 13th for special product announcement”. So something else will be announced on the 13th, whether it's a new Montage or Genos who knows. MODX+ is not featured as news probably because it was released in September of last year, which was a while ago.
Rich
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People are still awaiting the Yamaha unicorn. :)
Yamaha do not live rent free in my head, but who knows?
Keep playing and have fun -- pj
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Yeah right, unless you are 'convinced' that another brand suites you better than the one you have: go that way. Otherwise play the one you once bought with legimate reason with pleasure and keep your money in the pocket. In the meantime put quite some money aside; you will need that in time !! ;)
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I just read the title: "check back on April 13 special product announcement".
For me, we always have to wait the final conclusion.
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Good news on April 13, 2023 ? It is not a Friday ! ;)
Cross my fingers.
JH
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Well, Yamaha USA's NAMM page is now broken under Chrome...
All instrument categories have a "Latest Releases" button. Only Piano and Percussion have "Coming April 13" buttons.
No reason to raise one's hope. Practice instead. :)
Stay sane -- pj
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Yes, the header says: CHECK BACK ON APRIL 13, SPECIAL PRODUCT ANNOUNCEMENT. It seems Yamaha is sending out smoke signals for people to decipher. A special product announcement could mean one of two things. Yamaha already stated it has a new acoustic Grand Piano (or perhaps more than one acoustic model) that will be revealed on April 13th. Plus, Yamaha has also stated it has a new acoustic Drum Kit + Percussion that will be unveiled on April 13th as well. But, perhaps Yamaha still has a few surprises up its sleeve that will be announced at NAMM. I'm hoping it's the latter because the Genos and Montage have been on the market for a very long time compared to Yamaha's standard mode of operation which usually releases new models every three to four years, at most. To be sure there are literally hundreds of thousands of Yamaha keyboardists who are itching to get their hands on new high-end Yamaha keyboards. We know that the COVID pandemic and the supply chain/chip crises probably dealt a huge blow to Yamaha and other keyboard manufacturers but the pandemic is now over and the supply chain crises have gotten somewhat better so the "SPECIAL PRODUCT ANNOUNCEMENT" on April 13th could be, perhaps, maybe, might,... be a new GENOS &/OR new MONTAGE!!! Btw, there is still a high demand for luxury items including high-end keyboards no doubt, and you know the old saying, right? >> Don't put off for tomorrow (next year, etc.), what you can do today (in this case, at NAMM). 👍 I guess I'm a glass half-full kind of guy. ;) Less than a week to go. 🤞 :)
All the best, Mike
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I think if there is Genos 2, Yamaha will dedicate it to a separate event and attract more attention to Keyboard Workstation players.
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It looks like most of us are hoping Yamaha will announce their new high end arranger on April 13, 2023 ...
New high arrangers are usually introduced in the month of September by Yamaha ...
I am not too optimistic it might happen ( on April 13 ) this time ... but one never knows. Miracles are still possible. ;)
Keep smiling, JH
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I suspect that Yamaha will not reveal their heir apparent on April 13th, as there are so many unsold Genos', and it will seal their doom if they do!
Perhaps, it would seem more likely that they will let us know in September so that Peter Bartmans and Martin Harris can demo it during the Yamaha Club event in November.
But any news is welcome, whenever!
Uday
:)
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Hey Uday :
If Yamaha are obliged to sell so many unsold Genos arrangers yet ( price ? ), I even wonder if the announcement of the new high end arranger will take place in September 2023.
As far as we informed, Peter Baertmans ( = living in The Netherlands ) has planned his next Dutch dealer's presentantion in December 2023.
First shipments early 2024 ?
Only patience can tell, I guess. ;)
JH
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I suspect that Yamaha will not reveal their heir apparent on April 13th, as there are so many unsold Genos', and it will seal their doom if they do!
Perhaps, it would seem more likely that they will let us know in September so that Peter Bartmans and Martin Harris can demo it during the Yamaha Club event in November.
But any news is welcome, whenever!
Uday
:)
So, it sounds like new Yamaha arranger would be available earliest 2024?
For me it sounds like Korg Pa5X (but not Ketron Event)...
-kiplis-
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If Yamaha were to release a New Genos we would of heard a rumour by now.
It is near impossible to keep thing air tight these days :)
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I have the money waiting for the Genos 2 for 3 years now 8)
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If Yamaha were to release a New Genos we would of heard a rumour by now.
It is near impossible to keep thing air tight these days :)
Hey John :
Let us wait and see what April 13, 2023 might bring us. Hope brings life, they say. ;)
JH
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Believe me Jeff . "I want the new GENOS"!!!!! :)
That now makes Soryt and me waiting with the money.
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Hey Guys :
If you both ( you & Soryt ) have saved and reserved approx. USD 5,500 ( ? ) you might be the ( first ? ) proud owners of the Genos' successor before the end of 2023, early 2024, IMHO.
Hopefully earlier than I am expecting. :)
I have to wait much, much longer ... at least 2 years before I can spend this hugh amount of money.
I hope my Ty4 and I will survive this period of time.😛
Good luck ! JH
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I have the money waiting for the Genos 2 for 3 years now 8)
Me too ;) but the 61 ...
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Most members ( 95 % ) do not expect a 61 note Genos' successor, a 76 note only.
For me a 61 note would also be very welcome ... wishful thinking ? ???
JH
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It's impossible to predict, but... Genos (successor) is seen as an professional keyboard and as such, it's just expected to have 76keys. Not only we can play piano more comfortable with 76 keys, but we also get wider keybed split ranges. Yes, for home use, we can always make octave shift and adapt our playing to 61keys (or add a small midi keyboard). But for a pro, this could be a hassle and quite a limitation. Saying that, I don't expect Genos successor to be available with 61keys. At Yamaha, for those who are happy with 61keys, there's PSR-SX series.
And there's a price thing... Korg Pa5X for example: difference between 61 and 76key version is relative small considering the total price (only 330€ difference). And because we don't buy TOTL keyboard every year, we better don't make compromises which we might regret few years later (because we saved 330€).
But yes, many times we collect every cent for our new keyboard and for 330€ one can buy decent studio monitors.
Just sharing my thoughts,
Bogdan
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Yes @BogdanH, I know ;) We have had this discussion month ago. It is not without reason that I replaced my Genos with the SX900 at the time. So it's a personal choice. I'm still convinced there will be a 61 version too.... maybe I'm missing the point completely, but I'm going to daydream some more. I will be awaked at time X by nightmare or a beautiful dream... ;)
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76 key is best and you have more room to split the keyboard if you wanted to
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For most, 76 is the 'best', but not necessary for me. I have never had any problems with my 61-sx900. And if it ever happens, I'll deal with it another way... or I don't let it happen :D
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Whatever it is, it still won't make me play any better :'( :'(
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Whatever it is, it still won't make me play any better :'( :'(
Haha, I can relate to that😀.
My arrangers over the years have all been 61 notes. Liked the portability.
Last year went nuts and bought an 88 note . No regrets, though.
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My lower octave of the Genos is like new , never touched ( almost) ;D
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If you currently look at https://usa.yamaha.com/namm/ , you will see that a special product would be announced today for the electronic keyboard section. Push « latest release » button to see the message
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Could it Be GGGGGGGG :) :-[
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If you currently look at https://usa.yamaha.com/namm/ , you will see that a special product would be announced today for the electronic keyboard section. Push « latest release » button to see the message
Yeah, I noticed the same thing this morning, although I didn't see that same added text when I browsed a few days ago. Perhaps I overlooked it until now but it looks promising. I live about an hour and a half drive from the Anaheim Convention Center, where NAMM 2023 will be held. They open the doors at 10:00 am Pacific Daylight Time, which is less than two and half hours from now. I can't attend this year, unfortunately, but we'll soon find out what all the commotion is about on the internet and especially YouTube videos from all the various manufacturers, no doubt. Notice, the keyboard Yamaha displays on their NAMM page is the P-S500 under the electronic keyboard section. Not a high-end product, but a nice keyboard. Will Yamaha bring out the headliner now that we've seen the opening act? We'll soon find out. Notice also, if you will, under Synthesizer we see the new CK series, but there is NO added text below the keyboard to indicate a new synthesizer product reveal at NAMM. Oh, well. Time will tell! It will also be interesting to see what other manufacturers have in store. 👍
All the best, Mike
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It's a New cvp 900
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Hardly groundbreaking new tech :(
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As far as I know, the CVP9XX has the basic technology of the Genos , with a larger memory for the piano samples. In other words, can you discover other technologies that indicate that they are not in the current Genos? That could be an indication that there may be further development of the Genos?? (Samples/styles/voices do not count)
Yamaha will make its own platform if it wants to announce something 'big' to the world at time X. ;)
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Surprised to see another CVP line so soon. Sure, it's been 4 years but Covid didn't seem to hamper this delay at all if you consider it also took 4 years between the 700 and 800 series. And the 800 series was already based on the Genos engine anyway.
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X :)
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Apart from the piano samples, the only 'technoclogy' I can see in the new CVP that's not in the Genos is the built-in bluetooth adaptor.
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Here's the list of new Yamaha products that will be showcased at NAMM 2023 at the Anaheim Convention Center in Anaheim, CA on April 13-15, just a few days away. Disappointing for arranger keyboardists and traditional workstation users, since there will be no update to either the Montage or the Genos, unfortunately. PS: The synthesizer that was talked about from Yamaha's March 1st newsletter is the new CK line of keyboards. So I guess the MODX+ addition that was released months ago doesn't count?
https://usa.yamaha.com/namm/ You will probably need to scroll down a bit to see the new products.
All the best, Mike
Another PS: So the next real opportunity for Yamaha to make Waves 2.0 a reality will be in October/November 2023, at the Yamaha Keyboard Club event in the U.K. or NAMM 2024 on January 25-28 also in Anaheim, CA. Oh, well. :(
I dreamed that the new Genos was the star of the NAMM show, and that all old Genos's were on sale at half price.
Unfortunately, then I woke up,
Strideplayer :-\
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A lot of well known music instrument/pro audio manufacturers are absent from NAMM 2023. Before COVID-19 hit the scene, NAMM was doing pretty good, although not as good as a decade or more ago when NAMM was really the talk of the town and in fact the entire world, as was Musikmesse, which folded just recently most likely because of the global pandemic, supply chain(s) crises, economic instability, and many manufacturers who are now moving toward a strictly online sales and distribution model. YouTube may end up becoming the new online version of NAMM which would be a huge disappointment for musicians of all stripes who like to roam around looking at and playing all the new gadgets, keyboards, guitars, etc. Plus, there used to be world renowned musicians and singers who would show up and people got to meet and hear them play instruments/sing, and it was a real thrill for everyone involved. If you've noticed, in some of the early videos showing the inside of the Anaheim Convention Center it's a lot less populated and quite frankly a lot of empty space of nothing to speak of. Btw, Yamaha promised a 'Synthesizer' but so far it's a no-show. The CK88/61 are NOT synthesizers, if you get my drift. But there are two more days left of the NAMM trade show, so you never know. A Genos2 is definitely out of the question, since the CVP-900 is the headliner in the keyboard segment, I would imagine. I think the Montage and Genos continue to sell fairly well, so as a matter of principle, if it ain't broke, why fix it? Or, in this case, upgrade it? Yamaha is sitting on piles of cash apparently and if both keyboards continue to sell well and beat expectations we might not see a new Montage or Genos until... [your guess is as good as mine], but possibly not for many moons. In plain English, several years. I hope I'm wrong, btw. PS: If Yammie waits too long, Korg and Ketron and Roland??... could end up being the big winners in Yamaha's slow to market business strategy that was adopted just recently as you may or may not know. You snooze, you lose, as the saying goes. I will try to stay positive, so we'll see what happens at the Yamaha UK Keyboard Club extravaganza event in November and then NAMM 2024 shortly thereafter on January 25-28 once again in Anaheim, California.
All the best, Mike
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Apart from the piano samples, the only 'technology' I can see in the new CVP that's not in the Genos is the built-in bluetooth adaptor.
I basically agree with Derek. A few additions:
With CVP, Yamaha tries to recreate the actual live experience of playing an acoustic instrument. If someone wants the best digital piano experience, doesn't need certain arranger features and has the DoReMe to buy one, I recommend CVP.
Yamaha designs the acoustic audio system and uses binaural sampling to make the player feel like they are seated at, playing and hearing an acoustic piano. The CVPs also have Grand Expression Modeling and Virtual Resonance Modeling (below); both take a lot of additional DSP power which Genos does not have.
If it's any consolation, Genos internal memory is much larger. :-)
I love CVP. Wish I had one -- pj
Binaural Sampling: Records the sound of the piano by using specialized microphones installed in the position of the player's ear so that they capture locational information and other nuances discerned by the human ear.
Grand Expression Modeling: Any variation in the intensity and speed of your touch, and you'll hear a nuanced difference in tone, one that's almost identical to a grand piano.
Virtual Resonance Modeling: Performs realtime reproductions of the resonance created by the strings and body of the instrument. In a grand piano, sound resonates throughout the body of the instrument, producing a rich reverberation that envelops the listener in sound. This phenomena is reproduced perfectly in the Clavinova through Virtual Resonance Modeling (VRM). It calculates the various states of the strings for each of the 88 notes on the keyboard, from one instant to the next, and timing and depth of damper pedals pressed.
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Well, Yamaha decided to release the flagship Clavinova CVP-909GP costing $21,000 @ the 2023 NAMM show rather than the $6999 Genos 2, which makes good business sense, I presume, as it provides an opportunity for the available Genos' to sell (providing revenue), before the release of the extended due successor to Genos, speculatively, in October, probably showcased by Peter Bartmanns and Martin Harris at the annual Yamaha gathering in November.
The new CVP will also add a revenue stream to the company, which is good.
I expect the new Genos 2 to be out by the 1st Qtr of 2024, and I am looking forward to it!
Uday
:)
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If anyone is interested, John Fogerty showed up at NAMM 2023 yesterday, which is an encouraging sign that NAMM could make a comeback if more big names start showing up and interacting with the public and if manufacturers don't abandon their customers and potential customers to the wolves by relegating most if not all of their sales and distribution to online only. Yamaha in particular said in their Waves 2.0 outline they wanted to obtain a more personal involvement and closer relationship with their customers, which is commendable. What makes NAMM so special is now the public gets to attend and experience the excitement, new products, and co-mingle with the various employees and personnel from all the different manufacturers and watch live band entertainment, etc., which can be a real boon in the way of additional sales of the various products on display.
All the best, Mike
PS: Day two is about three hours away, so it will be interesting to see what transpires today. Btw, perhaps the CK-61/88 is Yamaha's new 'synthesizer' product, even though it's not really a synthesizer in the true sense of the word.
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Yamaha in particular said in their Waves 2.0 outline they wanted to obtain a more personal involvement and closer relationship with their customers, which is commendable.
Hi Mike --
Well, after my stunning endorsement of CVP (where is my kick-back, Yamaha?), I'm going to trash them. :o
I have read these statements about "involvement and closer relationship with their customers" in their annual reports -- for years.
I don't know what kind of smoke they have blown up the CEOs pipeline. (I'm trying to be polite.) There is engagement this, and engagement that. Frankly, I haven't seen any change in their public face and presentation. The irony drips from their annual reports...
Where is the direct engagement with PSR Tutorial Forum? After speaking with some Yamaha USA folks, yes, they definitely know about this forum. [And they are nice folks, BTW.]
Yamaha corporate is still an "island" as far as I can observe.
Sorry to break bad on Yamaha, but enough of this empty corporate-speak -- pj
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Glad I bought my Genos earlier this year, enjoying all the features/sounds now, than waiting for the Genos 2 no-show at NAMM.
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Well, Yamaha decided to release the flagship Clavinova CVP-909GP costing $21,000 @ the 2023 NAMM show rather than the $6999 Genos 2, which makes good business sense, I presume, as it provides an opportunity for the available Genos' to sell (providing revenue), before the release of the extended due successor to Genos, speculatively, in October, probably showcased by Peter Bartmanns and Martin Harris at the annual Yamaha gathering in November.
The new CVP will also add a revenue stream to the company, which is good.
I expect the new Genos 2 to be out by the 1st Qtr of 2024, and I am looking forward to it!
Uday
:)
Well sure as **** I can't see great big queues of people lining up to part with 21 THOUSAND
Dollars. That's £17,000 pounds sterling uk. In a worldwide recession..... Yeah right!
Ignore the top end keyboard market at your peril Yamaha!
Not for me anyway , but I have already bought another SX700. It will stay in it's box until my current one dies.... or I do... My guess is that they will bring out some horrible half synth, half arranger thing like a posh E473....Nooooo. That won't do at all.
But I could be hugely interested in this new Hammond XK4 keyboard to add to my SX! Looks and sounds awesome!
Step up or step down Yamaha. The world will spin on!
Keith
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It’s not unusual to pay much more than this for a half decent grand piano, and that’s more the competition for the top CVP. Yamaha make vastly more revenue in this market than portable keyboards, and probably much better margins so you could say that the top end keyboard market is exactly where Yamaha are placing their focus.
Mike
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Hey Mike :
Correct : Classical piano's are mostly more expensive.
IMHO most home keyboard players might go for a new high end arranger instead of a CVP 900 serie mainly because of the high new present Clavinova pricing, I guess.
If the new Yamaha high end arranger ( Genos2 ) enducer price will become approx. USD 7,000 ( like some members here seem to be expecting ), even then some people might postpone their original plans or might even decide to go for the competition.
Time will tell.
Best regards, JH
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IMHO most home keyboard players might go for a new high end arranger instead of a CVP 900 serie mainly because of the high new present Clavinova pricing, I guess.
I doubt that. CVPs and arrangers customers are different, CVP customers are generally looking for a piano that can also be played a bit like an arranger, not an all singing all dancing arranger that can be played a bit like a piano, which is where Genos sits. I think the DGX is the low cost CVP alternative, but they could drop to a 905, or find a good used 600 series, if price is the issue.
Not only are acoustic pianos more expensive, but Yamaha sells way more of them. You might not be able to buy the stool for a Yamaha Bosendorfer for the price of a good arranger. If you were Yamaha top management which market would be dearest to your heart?
Mike
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Not only are acoustic pianos more expensive, but Yamaha sells way more of them...
-I've been searching for that info, but found nothing.
And here my thoughts and guesses...
Yamaha's "standard" Classical pianos prices start at about 35000€ (CFX-es aren't sold in mass, I guess). That is, one Classical piano is the same price as: 1xGenos(=5000€) + 5xSX900(=11000€) + 8xSX700(=11000€) + Others (=8000€). Now we might think "selling one Classical piano is the same money as a bunch of keyboards.. so why even bother with keyboards?".
It probably depends from country to country, but I still believe that it's easier to sell a "bunch of keyboards of various types", than that's the case with Classical pianos. I mean, every smallish city has some musical instruments store with keyboards on display and on stock. It's not that easy to find a store with Classical pianos, though.
And then there's another thing. Making a Classical piano is very labor intensive. I've seen "Visit at Yamaha factory" documentary and all pianos are in majority hand made. Additionally, very big area is needed for storing wood, painting, assembling, testing and storing finished products. What I'm saying is, making piano costs a lot of money.
Keyboards on the other hand, are mass products: once production is started, making a keyboard is very cheap (especially if assembled in 3rd country). And so in my opinion, percentage profit is much bigger than that's the case with Classical piano production.
Yes, being 10-times more expensive, amount of money (total income) is much bigger for Classical pianos -but so are the costs.
-as said, just my thoughts.
Bogdan
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Mike :
In a multinational company like Yamaha all departements need to be individual profit centres.
They have many of these different departements and all of them together make the company like it is today.
In fact it is a chain of links.
All of them are individually responsible for Yamaha's total welfare. IMHO.
It is up to the top management to control the forecast, turnover, costs and profit of the entire company, 24/7, IMHO.
JH
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Bogdan
I researched this some time ago but didnt keep the numbers. It’s was quite hard to get a handle on arrangers sales, because of they way they segment the market. But I remember that in peak years Yamaha sold well over 200,000 acoustic pianos. Probably closer to half that now. Yamaha sell 300 Bosendorfer pianos alone per year, and since they cost between $100,000 and $200,000 each, that by itself would be way more than TOTL arrangers.
They do also sell a lot of digital keyboards, but digital pianos are a very large part of that, much more than arrangers. So their total piano sales - acoustic and digital - are massive. Genos and SX arrangers are tiny compared to this. I think I speculated that a year of top end arranger sales might hardly equate to 1 week of acoustic and digital piano sales for Yamaha
And I am sure margins are also much better on traditional instruments, because a dealer told me that online competition drove margins on portable keyboards razor thin. This why in most North America cities it’s pretty easy to find a dealership where you can try a whole range of pianos, and CVPs, but hard to find a Genos.
Mike
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Acoustic piano sales have fallen substantially here in the USA. In 2005 there were about 95,000 acoustic pianos sold in the US. Not sure how many were Yamaha-specific but as we know Yamaha is the largest maker and seller of acoustic pianos in the world. But in 2021 (latest statistics) there were only around 29,000 acoustic pianos sold in the US. Quite a drop and it might be due to going out of style plus the availability and vast improvement of digital pianos like the Yamaha CVP series which are in most cases a lot less expensive and don't take up nearly as much room.
All the best, Mike
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Don’t think there is any doubt that digital pianos are now good enough to be taking sales from acoustic pianos. And you don’t have to go to the level of a CVP. Some much more modestly priced digital are very good. Even piano teachers are often advising parents to start their kids on modestly priced digital. I see them now as one piano market, but Yamaha and the industry divides it based on acoustic and digital.
Mike
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-I've been searching for that info, but found nothing.
And here my thoughts and guesses...
Yamaha's "standard" Classical pianos prices start at about 35000€ (CFX-es aren't sold in mass, I guess). That is, one Classical piano is the same price as: 1xGenos(=5000€) + 5xSX900(=11000€) + 8xSX700(=11000€) + Others (=8000€). Now we might think "selling one Classical piano is the same money as a bunch of keyboards.. so why even bother with keyboards?".
It probably depends from country to country, but I still believe that it's easier to sell a "bunch of keyboards of various types", than that's the case with Classical pianos. I mean, every smallish city has some musical instruments store with keyboards on display and on stock. It's not that easy to find a store with Classical pianos, though.
And then there's another thing. Making a Classical piano is very labor intensive. I've seen "Visit at Yamaha factory" documentary and all pianos are in majority hand made. Additionally, very big area is needed for storing wood, painting, assembling, testing and storing finished products. What I'm saying is, making piano costs a lot of money.
Keyboards on the other hand, are mass products: once production is started, making a keyboard is very cheap (especially if assembled in 3rd country). And so in my opinion, percentage profit is much bigger than that's the case with Classical piano production.
Yes, being 10-times more expensive, amount of money (total income) is much bigger for Classical pianos -but so are the costs.
-as said, just my thoughts.
Bogdan
I think you are forgetting about the much cheaper uprights such as the B1, B2, B3, U1, U3 and YUS series.
My guess is Yamaha sells at least twice as many uprights than grands.
You can have a B2 for close to the price of a Genos. I bet the B series alone outsells the Genos. Certainly the B + U series does.
Not many people will have space for a grand.
I doubt it actually costs Yamaha more to make a B2 than a Genos when you look at the bigger picture, despite the labor intensity and extra materials used. Genoses are made in China and B2s in Indonesia which on average has 25% lower manufacturer costs. The upfront cost of developing the Genos software will have to be paid back through the later sales (and subsequently re-using that stuff in the SX keyboards etc).
An upright will still be seen as a great piece of furniture that will last decades with often parents buying one for children (the second hand market is massively more active, but I bet when many people see a Yamaha upright for £5,000 or less + free delivery + warranty (thus less hassle) they may just buy it new.
A Genos, surely is seen as a bit of expensive music tech that only nerds like us will enjoy / understand the point of and will last 10 years max in most households.
Even if you want to focus fully on cost by unit vs sales figures and where Yamaha should thus focus its resources, one, I'm sure, would conclude a follow up to the P515 is going to be more lucrative than a Genos 2 for Yamaha.
Indeed, as pointed out sales figures of pianos have dropped off, but I expect they have of organs / keyboards / arrangers also. The DAW + endless instrument plugins growth (via the internet) over the last 20 years alone must have taken a massive bite out of these markets. The only saving grace probably being digital slab pianos do well and which is why we see such a variety and quick release of these across all brands and none abandoning them (unlike Roland with arrangers/keyboards has done).
Google trends indicates there are almost as many lookups for "Yamaha Genos" and "Yamaha U1" across the world with the U1 staying more consistent over the last 5 years and the Genos waning off, which is to be expected.
Also the likes of U1 will hold its value longer than a Genos which you probably can't even give away easily in 10 years time. Except for the few nostalgia nerds (like many of us here), who the **** would want it at that point? It's just an old inconvenient piece of tech which will no longer be supported almost anywhere online. A nice piano however...
All these factors will play a role in people deciding what to spend thousands on when buying an instrument.
I thus think for 95% of the people in the market for a new instrument with piano keys on it: an acoustic or digital piano is a more wise investment than a complicated arranger.
Thus Yamaha is and will spend its resources accordingly.
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Hi, 2 things that made me decide not to buy a cvp, first up I live in a rural area, something goes wrong, no one to fix it, I would have to get it shipped to the city. Very expensive exercise.
Secondly, unlike a keyboard which are relatively simple to sell, a piano wouldn’t be. I’m unfortunately one of those people, a new model is announced, I want it.😀. So eventually when there’s a sx900 replacement announced, I’ll no doubt want one. Sx900, should not have too many problems selling it. To give me the 88 notes I wanted I had an es920 piano connected via midi.
PA5x was announced round same time as I was trying to decide between a CVP, Genos , and Korg. Cvp I ruled out for above reasons, Genos mainly because I thought there might be a replacement any day and basically because I really like my sx900, so went for Korg 88 note. I managed thru stroke of luck to get it for less than the 76 note version, plus I was able to sell my es920, didn’t need 2 pianos.
As good as the cvp’s may sound, it’s an electronic instrument. Electronics tend to devalue a lot.
I had a Yamaha baby grand for about 15 years, when I sold it I got more than what hubby paid for it, despite it getting to the stage of it possibly needing new strings. The ocean and salt air where we lived was starting to take its toll on it according to my piano tuner.
I don’t think my Yamaha clp would have gone up in price .
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All very reasonable thoughts and observations.
I believe we always see the situation from our own perspective, depending on where we live. I realized, that pianos are more "a thing" in US, where an upright piano is also a part of interior decoration -that's quite rare in Europe nowadays (at least where I live). And as Mike (keynote) pointed out, similar trend starts to happen in US. Meanwhile, digital pianos became more than good enough for home use and nobody buys a Classical piano for grandchildren anymore.
About margins on keyboards... Genos started at price of 6000+€ and is now sold for 4400€ (still with a profit, of course) -now imagine the margins.
Bogdan
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Actually the biggest market for pianos today is China, not Europe or USA. And regardless of the type, Yamaha still regard pianos as their core business. Yamaha have about 40% of the world market for pianos, and combined Yamaha revenues from pianos - traditional and digital - are of the order of $750 million.
If they sell 1000 Genos in a year, and I’m not sure they sell that many, that is still only $5 million. So in the big picture things like high end arrangers are small fry. Their main benefit might be driving technology ahead that they can then more cheaply leverage in lower end models, and maintaining the perception of being brand and technology leaders. The consequences of losing 10% of the TOTL arranger market to smaller brands like Korg or Ketron are insignificant compared to losing even 2% of the piano market share to other brands. So the idea we see stated on this forum that Yamaha are losing sleep over not having a Genos2 in the market to compete is probably a non issue for top Yamaha management. Cash cow core businesses need good margins AND high volume. One or the other doesn't fly. And it is not uncommon in large corporations for the bulk of top management to have come through the cash cow core business, so they often have great affinity for that traditional manufacturing driven business, with its massive facilities and huge employee base.
Among Yamaha's stated business objectives is to drive more into the mass mini keyboard market, I am guessing by that they mean portable. And to leverage adding technology to their core piano business. I would guess that covers CVP type instruments, Disklaviers etc. and that may explain why they are pushing a new CVP model, even if it doesn’t seem much more advanced than the previous series.
All this info can be gleaned from their Annual Report published in March this year.
Mike
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*snip*
About margins on keyboards... Genos started at price of 6000+€ and is now sold for 4400€ (still with a profit, of course) -now imagine the margins.
Bogdan
I'd love to know where that is, because here the cost has crept up slightly since launch (only 10% more, 5 years later). It's never come down, at least not in Canada. Nor has the margin ever changed.
I can also tell you that 6000 euros is susprising; at $8800 canadian you could buy a really good CVP. (4400 euros is *exactly* what it is now in Canada though; and like I said 5 years ago was about 10% less.)
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mikf:
... If they sell 1000 Genos in a year, and I’m not sure they sell that many, ....
Do you mean that Yamaha does not sell more than 1000 Genos workstations (worldwide) ?
If that is true then I am the owner of a collectors item.
I think there are a few 0's missing.
Regards
Etienne
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I have no idea so I guessed 1000 per year not 1000 total. Even if it is double or treble that it makes little difference to the assumptions.
Mike
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Why is everybody so obsessed with getting the latest Genos? I have never understood the long winded discussions about the latest keyboards. Admittedly I am turning into a "Grumpy Old Woman" but everything i ever read when I was choosing my keyboard gave Genos as the be all and end all of all keyboards. it seems to win everything hands down---so why don't people just play them and enjoy what they did actually choose to buy instead of obsessing over when the next one will come out. How much better can it be than the one you have already got??????
I'll probably be banned from the site now !!! >:( >:(
Irene
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hi Mark,
...
I can also tell you that 6000 euros is susprising...
I can't prove that, but I remember that price (actually it was slightly above 6000€) from german Yamaha web site, where official prices are always listed -I think it was in 2019 or so.
hi Irene,
I quite agree with you. But being at Yamaha owners forum, such discussions are to be expected... we need to talk about our "babies" and their future :)
Speaking for me, after owning SX700 for more than two years, I still learn new things about it (not everything is in manual), which is very rewarding. Of course there are things I wish they existed on my keyboard, but surprisingly, they don't exist on any other arranger either (i.e. fill-in at scale pitch change -if that's the correct term).
So, how much better can (or should) new keyboard be than the one I have? I think this is something each of us must answer for himself. What I wish, is having much better voices. I'm probably alone in this, but I don't need 500 "cheap" voices.. give me 100 high quality voices instead -we can adjust them to our liking later, right?
ok, ok.. I go playing now and enjoy what I have ;D
Bogdan
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Why is everybody so obsessed with getting the latest Genos? I have never understood the long winded discussions about the latest keyboards. Admittedly I am turning into a "Grumpy Old Woman" but everything i ever read when I was choosing my keyboard gave Genos as the be all and end all of all keyboards. it seems to win everything hands down---so why don't people just play them and enjoy what they did actually choose to buy instead of obsessing over when the next one will come out. How much better can it be than the one you have already got??????
I'll probably be banned from the site now !!! >:( >:(
Irene
Hi Irene, relatively speaking, it's really not so many. Those who respond are ultimately only a handful and I don't think they/we/I are obsessed (I hope ;-)) It's more, healthy curiosity about technological development in the keyboard spectrum; like a new car, a new phone, tv. or whatever ..You poned it yourself:" How much better can it be than the one you have already got??????" That's indeed the question... Remember: there was a Tyros 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 etc. Same situtiation! Something new is always fun to focus on and share one thoughts if it's your hobby. That curiosity does not mean that you are also dissatisfied with your current keyboard! And.. just skip reading if it 'annoys' you, right?
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Hello Irene,
Certainly the Genos is the best keyboard Yamaha has produced so far with many nice additions and great sound compared to the Tyros range but as always it is each to there own.
I am very pleased with mine and the little SX900 I have but am content to sit back and enjoy what I have until a new one appears. It is then that I will make a decision on whether to move on. One thing is it will defiantly be Yamaha. There keyboards have never let me down and they are such a friendly bunch here in the UK if you do have problems.
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Hi Eileen
Even looking at demos from Ketron and Pax5 The Genos is still the best.
Piano's,Korg do a little bit better with and that is that.
I do think that this year we will see a new Genos as Pete Bartmans is scheduled for something happening around November i believe
All the best
John :)
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IMHO, due to the competition, it might be acceptable to understand why many of us are wondering how the Genos' successor will look like and when the market can expect it.
On the other hand I agree with Irene it will not be easy for Yamaha to improve the Genos drastically.
I expect the new Yamaha high end arranger might be rather an update than an upgrade ... but ... only time will tell what the new baby will bring us.
We simply do not know the answer yet. Hopefully in September
' 23.
Last but not least, if a customer is very happy with her/his present arranger, I think he/she is not in a hurry to go for the newest arranger. ;)
All the best, JH
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Why is everybody so obsessed with getting the latest Genos? I have never understood the long winded discussions about the latest keyboards.
Irene
Well Irene, we can’t spend every minute of every day playing , so we fill it with other things. One is chatting to like minded people about things that interest us - like the next arranger. That’s what keeps forums like this going! ;D
As for being obsessed with upgrading to the next arranger, that is not what most do, no matter what is said here. History shows that not many people upgrade by only one arranger model. A few maybe, but most buyers will be upgrading from much older models, or completely new to the market. They want to know what and when so they dont jump in a buy the current model only to find out a new one with great new features came out 2 months later, and they wish they had waited.
Mike
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Why is everybody so obsessed with getting the latest Genos? I have never understood the long winded discussions about the latest keyboards. Admittedly I am turning into a "Grumpy Old Woman" but everything i ever read when I was choosing my keyboard gave Genos as the be all and end all of all keyboards. it seems to win everything hands down---so why don't people just play them and enjoy what they did actually choose to buy instead of obsessing over when the next one will come out. How much better can it be than the one you have already got??????
I'll probably be banned from the site now !!! >:( >:(
Irene
I think it's natural for humans to wonder what will happen next when it comes to entertainment, technology, politics and life in general.
Which is why I think in movies / tv shows for example, the whole notion of prequels is usually an absolutely terrible and stupid idea. Kill a character off and to then go back to learn what happened with that character before is usually not that captivating beyond a twist here and there.
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There is so much to improve the Genos , its not bad at the moment . but if you use it for 5 years and you know al his good and bad things ( yes they exist)
than its time for a better and new Genos II
My short wish list so far > Wish list Genos
8 Gb Flash mem ( ore more)
Oled screen ( very high def)
metal case finish, black better build ( case is flex now)
on board voice editor
new foot pedal like the Mfc10 and all the controls
smaller design
better I-pad integration, or android apps
better build quality
HDMi output
YC61 Dawbar engine
Full style editor onboard
Multipad editor
balanced output ( Xlr)
Usb sound like Yc and Ck series
Bluetooth
seamless sound transition
Automatic VH like that other top arranger :)
a decent replacement for YEM ( it’s terrible now) Look at Nord sound manager
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Hi Soryt :
Do you think Yamaha might follow your wish list ?
In that case ... what are your consumer list price expectations :
present price + 20 % ? ;)
Regards, JH
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New Genos wish-----
Seamless switching
Better way to load sounds with editor and load banks.
Bigger hard drive to load your own samples
Easier way to make Styles
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Hi Soryt :
Do you think Yamaha might follow your wish list ?
In that case ... what are your consumer list price expectations :
present price + 20 % ? ;)
Regards, JH
If the Genos II is made with better housing and metal and all that improvements ot may cost about 5800 €.
And if it is also “upgradable “ and wil last for 10 years ore more it is not so expensive, look at the Tyros range , the most of them are still “alive” and kicking.
I using a YC61 with the Genos and it’s build like a tank and weight a 7 Kg , Yamaha can build a better Genos if they listen to the customers (Ideascale)
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We have a professional musician here who still gigs with his Tyros 1 !!! Many have told him to try the Genos, but he is not interested! I guess he looks on his keyboard as a tool, and as long as this tool works, why buy another expensive one? But we hobby musicians are not looking at our keyboards as tools, but as interesting gadgets! It is not only the playing for us, but we like to delve into new functions and features. We like to fiddle with our keyboardes and discover new tinngs, that is the fun of it. So I have 6 keyboards, while this musician has one. He is earning a lot of money, and has minimal cost of equipment. I, on the other hand, I am SPENDING money, I mostly play at home. But oh my, how FUN it is! Will I buy a Genos 2? I hope not, but fear I will :)
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Compared to the competition enduser' s price, an amount of Euro 5,800 might be much too high, IMHO. :P
JH
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Genos 2 does not yet exist, but we are discussing a completely fictitious price! 8)
Mike
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" Genos 2 does not yet exist, but we are discussing a completely fictitious price! "
I agree, Mike.
It looks like Yamaha are not in a hurry to announce a new high end arranger despite the potential pressure ( ? ) of competition.
Apparantly there is a lot of Genos' stock available yet. ::)
No reason at all to discuss a fictitious price now.
BTW all Genos owners are saying the Genos' sound quality is the best of all arrangers ever made.
Best wishes,
JH
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OK guys----having read your responses to my post above I will hold my hand up!!!!! Perhaps I'm having a "bad hair day" ;D ;D
I just don't really get it. I don't have a Genos btw ---if anyone remembers my earlier posts (doubtful) but i traded my S975 last December for the SX900.
I absolutely love this keyboard and just like Bogdan ( thanks again Bogdan for all the help you have given me) I am learning new things all the time and hopefully am improving a little. But I just don't get why anyone owning the Holy Grail of keyboards (ie the Genos) is so "obsessed "with waiting for the next one. It is sort of beyond me. However, you are quite right Ton---I can skip reading it if it annoys me. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
My only real excuse here is that i read this forum with the expectation of information which will help develop my "skills" (???!!!!) and so I guess info re the latest keyboards isnt what i,m looking for.
Toril, I cannot imagine for the life of me why anyone would have 6 keyboards ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D But i love your example of the musician with one and money and you with 6 and spending. :D :D :D :D :D
Then again, the love of my life was always golf---so perhaps we're not so different after all!!!
I think its perhaps time for me to sign out of the forum but I would like to thank all the people who have helped and encouraged me over the last few months. I am particularly grateful to Bogdan for his help and closely followed by Mike, Toril, Drake, Eileen, Chris and Keith. Thank you all.
Kindest regards
Irene
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Well, You have to understand men
We love toys and lots of knobs to play with. 8) ::) ;D
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.. But I just don't get why anyone owning the Holy Grail of keyboards (ie the Genos) is so "obsessed "with waiting for the next one. It is sort of beyond me...
-it is interesting indeed. Most impatient seems to be those who say Genos is perfect for them and better than anything else on planet. I think future will tell, that big majority of those "waiting for new Genos" will never buy one. I can imagine seeing reasons like "because next Genos isn't that much better..." -yeah, impossible to improve "perfect" keyboard ;)
But as I mentioned in my previous post, we just love to talk about new upcoming stuff and make predictions... it's in our nature, I think. Especially for us, hobby players. As Toril said: it's not only a playing -that's why she needs 6 pieces, I guess ;D
I try to be reasonable in this (my wallet takes care about that) and even I'm happy with keyboard I have, I do dream about having something "better"... I think I need to block all web pages showing Pa5X ;D
Bogdan
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... see original post....
I think its perhaps time for me to sign out of the forum but I would like to thank all the people who have helped and encouraged me over the last few months. I am particularly grateful to Bogdan for his help and closely followed by Mike, Toril, Drake, Eileen, Chris and Keith. Thank you all.
Kindest regards
Irene
It goes without saying that everyone decides for themselves whether to stay or to unsubscribe. You can also read only those topics that interest you (or use 'notify' in the top right of the posts!!). In addition to many nonsense discussions, there is much more helpful information to be found in the various sections. You just have to sort and/or look them up yourself. Enjoy your keyboard....
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Keeping up with the latest is cheaper in the long run especially with Yamaha keyboards as they hold there value.
Also new discoveries.
Just take my Yamaha DXR8's which cost £1000 just under in 2018 with a six year guarantee.
Now the Yamaha satalites speakers with a boom box and battery wires included for £300 when new is a rip off as they sound like a transister radio compared with the DRX8's
In 2018 i just paid for the Genos and my DRX8's will last easily another 10 years plus, and when new Genos comes out that brings the Yamaha tinny box set up to £600 if released this year.
The DXR8's are a world apart in quality compared with the Yamaha Genos GNS MS01's
I use Focal Alpha50's for mixing
I still think that if you pay for a Yamaha Genos at nearly £5000, it deserves quality sound.
or you will run a Rolls Royce on a Mini engine as i have said before.::) ;D ;D ;D ;D
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-it is interesting indeed. Most impatient seems to be those who say Genos is perfect for them and better than anything else on planet. I think future will tell, that big majority of those "waiting for new Genos" will never buy one. I can imagine seeing reasons like "because next Genos isn't that much better..." -yeah, impossible to improve "perfect" keyboard ;)
For me to upgrade to the next arranger from Yamaha it would need to be substantially better than the Genos otherwise I think I will just keep the Genos, so for example, it would need to be a jump similar to past jumps, eg, From 9000pro to Tyros, and Tyros5 to Genos, if it's just an increment then I really doubt I would change it especially now that the OS is that advanced that you could do any increments via OS now, eg, the improvements from T2-T5 could all have been done via OS upgrades I am sure, so I doubt Yamaha would get away with doing a Genos2 with just a few extra drums, styles and sounds at today's standards. The Pa5x is a massive jump from the Pa4x in nearly every way especially in the drums and bass where it can even sound like a Ketron sometimes and I am absolutely enjoying the Pa5x and it's the keyboard I currently play the most as I am discovering new things every time I touch it. I am really enjoying the Event too because it's a breath of fresh air, and then there's the fantastic Genos that always makes me smile with how beautiful it also plays. I still hold to this day at how much Yamaha can improve on the current Genos, sound wise that is, I just don't know what they can do. They can improve it cosmetically of course and add loads of extra usbs, plugs, knobs, screen tilt, but if it still sounds the same as the Genos then I don't know if I'd get it. It will need to be a huge leap like Korg and Ketron have done for me to be worthwhile, if that makes sense. The difference has to be really noticeable.
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OK guys----having read your responses to my post above I will hold my hand up!!!!! Perhaps I'm having a "bad hair day" ;D ;D
I just don't really get it. I don't have a Genos btw ---if anyone remembers my earlier posts (doubtful) but i traded my S975 last December for the SX900.
I absolutely love this keyboard and just like Bogdan ( thanks again Bogdan for all the help you have given me) I am learning new things all the time and hopefully am improving a little. But I just don't get why anyone owning the Holy Grail of keyboards (ie the Genos) is so "obsessed "with waiting for the next one. It is sort of beyond me. However, you are quite right Ton---I can skip reading it if it annoys me. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
My only real excuse here is that i read this forum with the expectation of information which will help develop my "skills" (???!!!!) and so I guess info re the latest keyboards isnt what i,m looking for.
Toril, I cannot imagine for the life of me why anyone would have 6 keyboards ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D But i love your example of the musician with one and money and you with 6 and spending. :D :D :D :D :D
Then again, the love of my life was always golf---so perhaps we're not so different after all!!!
I think its perhaps time for me to sign out of the forum but I would like to thank all the people who have helped and encouraged me over the last few months. I am particularly grateful to Bogdan for his help and closely followed by Mike, Toril, Drake, Eileen, Chris and Keith. Thank you all.
Kindest regards
Irene
I read this with a growing feeling of sadness, and then actually got quite cross about it.
So I will only say this, and it's not often I stick my head above the parapet these days.
I'm sure I'm not the only member who is SICK OF HEARING ABOUT......In no particular order....
NAMM.......It's Finished...... No Arrangers.....Tough....Get over it!
GENOS 2......No such keyboard.....Period
KORG......Who cares? We're a YAMAHA forum.
KETRON......As above.
C'm all you people haven't we got more worthwhile things to discuss?
I am pretty cross that a good member Irene, has felt that she doesn't want to be here any more. Especially, as like me, she lives in the UK....
I'm also aware that we can all comment on subjects that maybe we should stay clear of.
But losing Members......NO.....That's not right. Sorry but It's NOT right.
I'm off now. .....No replies neccessary
Keith. >:( >:(
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I read this with a growing feeling of sadness, and then actually got quite cross about it.
So I will only say this, and it's not often I stick my head above the parapet these days.
I'm sure I'm not the only member who is SICK OF HEARING ABOUT......In no particular order....
NAMM.......It's Finished...... No Arrangers.....Tough....Get over it!
GENOS 2......No such keyboard.....Period
KORG......Who cares? We're a YAMAHA forum.
KETRON......As above.
C'm all you people haven't we got more worthwhile things to discuss?
I am pretty cross that a good member Irene, has felt that she doesn't want to be here any more. Especially, as like me, she lives in the UK....
I'm also aware that we can all comment on subjects that maybe we should stay clear of.
But losing Members......NO.....That's not right. Sorry but It's NOT right.
I'm off now. .....No replies neccessary
Keith. >:( >:(
Maybe I am not understanding the problem, but isn't the whole purpose of a forum is to talk, discuss, report, debate about these very things!? I don't know about anybody else but even though it's a Yamaha forum I still appreciate hearing about other instruments too, because after all aren't we music lovers first!? And then there's those who are anticipating the next Genos or whatever, and why not!! I am as well! I think it's perfectly fine and I also completely understand the slight disappointment with no announcements about it yet.
I think the forums would be quite bland if we just spoke about 1 topic with just 1 opinion and everybody agreeing to it, wouldn't make much for great conversation I don't think and we'd learn nothing new either!!
I don't think it's necessary for anybody to leave the board for just posting what they think and what's on their mind, I think it can be refreshing and quite healthy to hear different points of view.
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For me to upgrade to the next arranger from Yamaha it would need to be substantially better than the Genos otherwise I think I will just keep the Genos...
...The difference has to be really noticeable.
I hear you. And for that to happen, Yamaha needs a new fresh approach, which some Yamaha owners don't really welcome -they wish an "upgrade" and not a "change".
I'm happy with SX700, but if Yamaha doesn't change it's "philosophy", then my next keyboard probably won't be Yamaha anymore. As it is, Yamaha is too "closed" system. There are limitations without apparent reason and too many "can't do" things. Some things can only be done if we use 3rd party software or if we "hack" files (i.e style unlocker) and many things are just kept as secret by Yamaha (i.e.: how to create cpf file without specific instrument info file, undocumented sysex-es, etc.).
But I'm not holding my breath for that change to happen...
@Irene
Don't leave.. we need someone who will keep us sane here ;D
Just sharing my thoughts,
Bogdan
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I did not think Irene was leaving the forum but just not going to take part in this thread anymore.
After all there are still many members that look forward to getting information on there currant keyboards and asking for help where required.
Most forums became very quite a while back because there were no new flagships from Yamaha coming along and sad to say but nothing to moan about like how bad Piano's were.
These new threads crept in about the opposition and for my part have gone on far to long. Yes it is nice to know what else is out there but going on and on about it takes away the enjoyment of coming onto the forum for some. Come on all you Yammie's lets get back to our own topics. Why be on a Yamaha forum that is producing such long threads about other keyboards.
The new Genos or what ever they call it will be along at some point and also the price it will be. Then we make our discissions.
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Eileen----yes I was planning on leaving the forum as I just feel these subjects are of no interest to me at all and what I wanted from a forum (and did originally get) doesnt seem to happen anymore and I just end up getting slightly annoyed at the continual long winded discussions about other keyboards and when the latest Genos is coming out. i know I shouldn't bother -----(Grumpy Old Woman)---- and so I thought it would be best , therefore, to just opt out.
I was very touched though to receive a PM from a forum member telling me not to go.
Also I see Bogdans comment above which brought a huge smile :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
I have very little to contribute actually as I have more questions than answers-----I think that was the signature tune many years ago to a sport programme on the telly!!!!!
Kind regards
Irene
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While some still complaining about the same thing, I wonder how to make my own revo! drums in my Genos.
I think it's more important than regretting NAMM and no Genos 2 yet etc.
Still enjoying my Genos. :D
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I didn't read every post but just because there was no Genos 2 displayed at NAMM, doesn't mean Yamaha won't release it next month (for example). It may be in the final stages of OS proofing and other QC stuff. Time will tell.
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... more questions than answers...
For you Irene (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY2Dc3m1syQ) :)
Bogdan
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Irene
It is of course entirely up to you to decide what is or what is not of interest to you and worth your time. But there is no need to ‘sign out’ or leave the forum. You can just cut back on your visits or posts. But by keeping your membership alive, then it’s very easy for you in the future if some question arises, to come back and post this question.
I also wanted to make sure that people realize that the forum is only one part of this website. There is a whole world of lessons and advice opens up when you click on the PSR Tutorial link. I admit that many of these are not brought fully up to date for the latest keyboard models, but since the basics remain unchanged, they still are useful.
I liken the forum to an after dinner conversation, it might go anywhere, it might be interesting to you, it might not. But as long as it’s respectful that is fine.
Someone posted in frustration on this thread .”. NAMM, Genos2, Korg, Ketron .. is there nothing more interesting to talk about?”
Well obviously not, because that’s what is currently generating the longest thread !!
Mike
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I didn't read every post but just because there was no Genos 2 displayed at NAMM, doesn't mean Yamaha won't release it next month (for example). It may be in the final stages of OS proofing and other QC stuff. Time will tell.
Meanwhile, let's enjoy making music, without which life would be mono-tonous!(sorry, for that, couldn't help it!) ;D ;D
Uday
:)
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Good morning,
I think everything has been said on this subject.
There are those who will consider buying the Genos 2 and others who will not immediately. There is no judgment to be made on the choices of each.
And it can continue until November-December is another 9 months!!!! 9 months is a very long time on the same subject!!!
Christian
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Yes I must agree Christian. I think we now have enough information on the opposition and carrying on with this is now getting very boring.
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Yes I must agree Christian. I think we now have enough information on the opposition and carrying on with this is now getting very boring.
I really don't get posts like this……
Note: I have since spoken to Eileen about wording of the above message and apologised to her if it sounded too direct or even rude, it certainly wasn't my intention to do so as I have absolutely nothing but respect for Eileen, I just worded my point of view a bit badly.
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I didn't read every post but just because there was no Genos 2 displayed at NAMM, doesn't mean Yamaha won't release it next month (for example). It may be in the final stages of OS proofing and other QC stuff. Time will tell.
Absolutely, it will be either as you said or they are just timing it right. I will say though, just say if an announcement was quite imminent, they have been hiding it really well this time because there are usually at least a leak or two, mock pictures or leaked specs, but none of that this time at all !
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Thats the one Bogdan!!! Back in the day I had a Clavinova---think it was probably one of the very first models as it was over 30 years ago when my son came home from a piano lesson raving about his teachers piano---so we had to buy one!!!!!! This piece was one piece I could play by ear together with the very few rhythms that were on and I remember it was a Bossa Nova. Things have moved on since then ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
regards
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I really don't get posts like this, if you don't like something, you don't need to read it or even reply, just ignore it and move on and find a topic you like to participate it, it's really that simple.
Okay, now apply this logic to yourself and your post. :)
You don't get the post?? So don't read it or reply, move on, it's really that simple.
People are allowed to have an opinion and if they see something that is pointless, then they can post a remark to that effect.
Do not tell people to not read or comment as an argument to post sometimes meaningless content.
Just my opinion.
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Okay, now apply this logic to yourself and your post. :)
You don't get the post?? So don't read it or reply, move on, it's really that simple.
People are allowed to have an opinion and if they see something that is pointless, then they can post a remark to that effect.
Do not tell people to not read or comment as an argument to post sometimes meaningless content.
Just my opinion.
It’s ok, thank you. I’d rather stick to the topic at hand and look forward to more input from those who are genuinely interested in discussing the topic.
All the best to you.
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Good evening,
I approve of Christophe's statements.
At some point, you have to know how to move on and not just focus on the future Genos 2.
Really? But isn’t it what the topic is about? So therefore one would expect lots of ‘Genos2’ talk.
So what you are saying is we shouldn’t discuss anything about Yamahas next arranger because it’s upsetting or too boring for people?
I thought this was the whole point of forums.
So we can’t talk about the next Yamaha arranger on a Yamaha forum. Right… got it.. 🙄😂
I’m baffled.
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Seven years ago, when the then-new Genos was released, Yamaha prepared us for the event by showing us three months of teasers to get us talking about it and getting mighty excited, which would increase their early sales.
So, I would expect that Yamaha will herald in the new G2 using the same rollout strategy, three months of teasers before the release! Pure speculation, but something to look forward to!
Uday
:)
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Hello Danny,
I read in many forums that some would like 90 keys, that it be white, that it obey the voice.
Of course, I exaggerate at will.
But, it must be understood that YAMAHA has already finalized its product, that it will be released at the end of November at the beginning of December at a price close to its neighbors. So what is the point of speculating in a vacuum.
It's like saying I want the new TESLA to have the steering wheel in the middle of the cabin. Elon Musk has nothing to do with it. He will release his model as he planned.
It will therefore be like this for Genos and the discussions could still drag on for 9 months, that would not change anything.
Who are we to influence the trade policy of such a giant?
As soon as it is understood, everything is said. Of course, speech is free in the forum, but it still has to be reasoned, rational and above all constructive.
And to conclude, I will say that pedaling in the vacuum of knowledge has never made things happen.
Hello colas,
Thank you for your post and I appreciate your thoughts :)
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Elon Musk did put a dummy inside the Tesla ;D
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Why is everybody so obsessed with getting the latest Genos? I have never understood the long winded discussions about the latest keyboards. Admittedly I am turning into a "Grumpy Old Woman" but everything i ever read when I was choosing my keyboard gave Genos as the be all and end all of all keyboards. it seems to win everything hands down---so why don't people just play them and enjoy what they did actually choose to buy instead of obsessing over when the next one will come out. How much better can it be than the one you have already got??????
I'll probably be banned from the site now !!! >:( >:(
Irene
You make a good point, Irene. I think it's mostly a man thing, although Rikki from Down Under said she's also interested in the latest/greatest releases when they come out. The Genos is top-notch, no doubt about it. A professional keyboardist can really make the Genos sing. People like Peter Baartmans from the Netherlands and Martin Harris of the UK, etc. That said, I don't think Yamaha wants to rest on its laurels too long. There are other keyboard manufacturers like Korg, Roland, Ketron, Kurzweil, Casio, Medeli, etc., that also want a piece of the pie and Yamaha needs to keep up with the competition or could be caught flat-footed. In other words, I don't think Yammie wants to give up market share easily.
In fact, Yamaha orchestrated two websites, one called YamahaSynth.com, and the other IdeaScale.com for the purpose of gaining insight into what their customers and potential customers want in future keyboard products. That means, Yamaha is interested in maintaining and gaining market share and of course bringing products to market that reflect current trends and hopefully the latest technologies. Guys that play keyboards thrive on new products that deliver the best sounds and latest technology in a reasonably affordable package. If a Genos2 is released by Yamaha (or perhaps they'll call it something else) the buzz and excitement will immediately follow, especially if the Genos2, etc., meets or beats all the hype that Yamaha touts. The Genos still sells reasonably well, from what I understand, but it's getting long in the tooth and behind the times technology-wise. OTOH, if the Genos2 finally arrives but doesn't meet or beat people's expectation, there are other options on the table for people to consider if Yamaha doesn't deliver on said product(s). Both the Korg Pa5X and the Ketron Event will be on the market for another 5–7 years before something else is released, most likely. In the interim, Yamaha could take the slow boat to China route and wait several more years before releasing a Genos2 or a new Montage. The ball is in Yamaha's court. We as consumers are at the whim of companies that produce products for sale. It is up to Yamaha to get the ball rolling. Yamaha's customers and potential customers can simply try and persuade them to get the ball rolling on their behalf. ;) That's what we're doing on this forum and other forums, and I think Yamaha does browse this forum on occasion to see what we're up to, and hopefully they're taking notes. 8)
All the best, Mike
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I don't think there is much left to discus. Yamaha Korg and Ketron Have been welll covered.
Indeed most of the idea's people have for the new Genos are also posted on IdeaScale.com word for word but no answers are given.
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;D ;D Mmmm..I wonder.. peoples reactions are sometimes 'remarqueble'. Why one react at certain post and says: this is so boring or all is said a hundred times already. Also pronounce that one quit the discussion because the content lead to nothing. By writing such kind of reaction one in fact participate on that discussion. I doubt if one succeed to convince other (future) participans to stop replying on a certain issue. Why not simply ignore or don't reply ... that's not so difficult ... or it is ... ? ;)
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;D ;D Mmmm..I wonder.. peoples reactions are sometimes 'remarqueble'. Why one react at certain post and says: this is so boring or all is said a hundred times already. Also pronounce that one quit the discussion because the content lead to nothing. By writing such kind of reaction one in fact participate on that discussion. I doubt if one succeed to convince other (future) participans to stop replying on a certain issue. Why not simply ignore or don't reply ... that's not so difficult ... or it is ... ? ;)
You don't need to wonder, it's a part of human nature. :) Just examine your own feelings and why you felt you had to comment on why others had reacted and posted. You have now participated in a discussion about which people have posted there feelings on boring, meaningless comments. Why did you not ignore? That's not so difficult, or is it? ;D
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;D I fully agree with you! ;)
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You make a good point, Irene. I think it's mostly a man thing, although Rikki from Down Under said she's also interested in the latest/greatest releases when they come out.
All the best, Mike
Hi Mike,
definitely, been a keyboard junkie since the 80’s. Just find the progress of the technology fascinating. Have a very indulgent husband 😀, though he’s probably saved heaps over the years, as, I hate shopping ( except for keyboards), worked it’s cheaper to replace keyboard every 2 to 3 years , than buy a wardrobe full of new clothes every year. Haha.
Nowadays I figure why not. Might as well enjoy what ever time I have left looking forward to ,” what’s next?” 😃
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Hi Mike,
definitely, been a keyboard junkie since the 80’s. Just find the progress of the technology fascinating. Have a very indulgent husband 😀, though he’s probably saved heaps over the years, as, I hate shopping ( except for keyboards), worked it’s cheaper to replace keyboard every 2 to 3 years , than buy a wardrobe full of new clothes every year. Haha.
Nowadays I figure why not. Might as well enjoy what ever time I have left looking forward to ,” what’s next?” 😃
Rikki, as you know I am the same as you, I like the term keyboard junkie haha! I now have over 20 keyboards, I recently bought a Pa900 to complete my Korg collection, that is, the Korg keyboards that I either used to own and want back or to experience what I missed at the time and so getting them whilst I still can and at a good price. This same with Yamaha as well, I have all the Yamahas I want now as well. Having this many is quite beneficial as it also allows family members to experience arranger keyboards too including my children which I am hoping they will all eventually get into and therefore I will give them one each if that's the case, so there are benefits to this as well. It's wonderful to have such a great hobby :)
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Banter is good and gets people together 8)
Nice to have loads of opinions
Anything is better than watcing reality shows on tv 8)
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... I now have over 20 keyboards..
hahaha.. that makes you record holder, I guess. Makes me curious how your room looks :)
hmm.. I definitely need a 2nd keyboard.. ::)
Bogdan
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hahaha.. that makes you record holder, I guess. Makes me curious how your room looks :)
hmm.. I definitely need a 2nd keyboard.. ::)
Bogdan
Haha! It's not too bad when most of them are in a keyboard bag, don't take up too much room. I have three keyboards on stands that I use every day (Genos, Pa5x & Event), and the rest are in keyboard bags, a few in my main room and the rest in the spare room. My dad has 3 of my keyboards at the moment so that helps a little. My sister is looking to use one too so that could be another one soon.
If you get a second keyboard I would recommend the Pa1000 or Pa700, both are great and would compliment your SX700 unless you would want another Yamaha. I think Korg's next step would be to replace the Pa1000/Pa700 but not sure when that would be and it's something I am really looking forward to because the new OS of the Pa5x is so good and so easy to use that I am finding it's becoming a bit easier to use that the Genos which I never thought would be the case but it is. The way the user banks work for styles now is so easy, no more .SETS to worry about and it's like using windows explorer now.
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Rikki, as you know I am the same as you, I like the term keyboard junkie haha! I now have over 20 keyboards,
*** Danny, I knew you had quite a collection, didn’t realise you had 20 wow. I’m down to 2. Even though hubby lets me buy new ones, I always to try and sell my old ones, keeps him happy 😀
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hahaha.. that makes you record holder, I guess. Makes me curious how your room looks :)
hmm.. I definitely need a 2nd keyboard.. ::)
Bogdan
You do Bogdan, a Korg of some sort. Haha. Variety is the spice of life😀
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...
If you get a second keyboard I would recommend the Pa1000 or Pa700, both are great and would compliment your SX700 unless you would want another Yamaha...
Currently I'm saving money, so anything can happen until I'm "ready".. but right now I'm flirting with idea to get Pa5X -to make a jump worth jumping, so to speak. Of course I would consider Pa1000 successor, but considering Korg current supply capability, I don't expect that to happen soon. Anyway, I'm trying to get the best I can and stop looking for a long while.
@rikkibears .. stop doing that -I'm already on fire ::) :o :-\ ;D
Bogdan
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Hey Danny :
I own 3 high end pro guitars, a Marshall amp, many guitar sound accessories, a Tyros4 ( for my use one of the best arrangers ever made by Yamaha ), MAC and Win computers and last but not least : I ordered a brand new Korg synthesizer today.
Most people do not understand why an old man of 75, living in a small apartment, needs so many music toys and never seems to stop buying them ... ;D
I have a lot of fun and ... I feel very happy I am crazy !
Keep well, my friend !
Best regards, JH
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Hey Danny :
I own 3 high end pro guitars, a Marshall amp, many guitar sound accessories, a Tyros4 ( for my use one of the best arrangers ever made by Yamaha ), MAC and Win computers and last but not least : I ordered a brand new Korg synthesizer today.
Most people do not understand why an old man of 75, living in a small apartment, needs so many music toys and never seems to stop buying them ... ;D
I have a lot of fun and ... I feel very happy I am crazy !
Keep well, my friend !
Best regards, JH
Hi Jeff,
And that's exactly what it's all about, to have fun, play music and enjoy yourself doing so. I know that if I didn't start a career in IT as a profession I would more than likely be playing music full time instead which I would have loved but IT was the path and I can't look back now. But having these instruments as a hobbyist instead is fantastic as well.
The T4 is a great instrument and when I finally managed to get my hands on one in the past, it did blow me away. It's one of the rare keyboards that had that affect on me, only a few have ever done and the T4 is one of them.
Congrats on your new Korg synth, that's fantastic, what did you get?
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Thanks Danny :
A small ( 61 n ) synth but a good addition ( I guess ) to my beloved TY4 : Korg Kross2 61.
Best wishes, JH
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I reckon a Kord Wavestate combined with Genos would be a good idea :)
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Currently I'm saving money, so anything can happen until I'm "ready".. but right now I'm flirting with idea to get Pa5X -to make a jump worth jumping, so to speak. Of course I would consider Pa1000 successor, but considering Korg current supply capability, I don't expect that to happen soon. Anyway, I'm trying to get the best I can and stop looking for a long while.
@rikkibears .. stop doing that -I'm already on fire ::) :o :-\ ;D
Bogdan
Hi Bogdan , sorry 😔. For one, they’re still not that readily available, and another ,anyone that’s asked, I’ve recommended they wait till next update. Note so much for people who want to just enjoy playing music, but the ones who enjoy delving into the workstation functions. Some are still missing.
Trying to make you feel better.😁
Worth waiting and getting something you can keep for a long time, be it a Korg or a Genos when the new model is announced..
Had I not misread the signs 3 to 4 years ago and sold my pa4x(ie I thought Pa4x was going to be replaced) my Pa4x would now be 6 to 7 years old. Would have been good value for money.
Same for Genos owners 5 years plus.
Maybe the time has gone where they bring out a replacement every 3 years. Probably good for junkies like myself😆. ( and Danny) haha.
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Maybe the time has gone where they bring out a replacement every 3 years. Probably good for junkies like myself😆. ( and Danny) haha.
hahahaha! Well I think you will be a bit shocked with the message I sent you. I am truly a proper keyboard junkie for sure! You'll find out why when you read my message !!!!
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hahahaha! Well I think you will be a bit shocked with the message I sent you. I am truly a proper keyboard junkie for sure! You'll find out why when you read my message !!!!
You definitely are Danny. Haha
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I did not think Irene was leaving the forum but just not going to take part in this thread anymore.
After all there are still many members that look forward to getting information on there currant keyboards and asking for help where required.
Most forums became very quite a while back because there were no new flagships from Yamaha coming along and sad to say but nothing to moan about like how bad Piano's were.
These new threads crept in about the opposition and for my part have gone on far to long. Yes it is nice to know what else is out there but going on and on about it takes away the enjoyment of coming onto the forum for some. Come on all you Yammie's lets get back to our own topics. Why be on a Yamaha forum that is producing such long threads about other keyboards.
The new Genos or what ever they call it will be along at some point and also the price it will be. Then we make our discissions.
very True Eileen ;)
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EVERYTHING COMES TO HE WHO WAITS :)
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If only that were true"…………..
Mike
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NOVEMBER WILL BE HERE IN A JIFFY!! :)
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Seven years ago, when the then-new Genos was released, Yamaha prepared us for the event by showing us three months of teasers to get us talking about it and getting mighty excited, which would increase their early sales.
So, I would expect that Yamaha will herald in the new G2 using the same rollout strategy, three months of teasers before the release! Pure speculation, but something to look forward to!
Uday
:)
My goodness, did you get the Genos a year and a half before the rest of us?? ;) ;D
Genos launched Oct 2017 for USA & parts of Europe, Dec 2017 in Canada. (5.5 years ago from your post, but I agree it feels like it's been longer)
Mark
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I read somewhere now forgotten that a salesman had approached Yamaha and they said they cannot divulge any information.
In my book if Yamaha said they cannot divulge information, it means there is something in the ethers.
Elemetary my dear Watson. :)
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I apologize, Mark, senior moments do occur especially when the events have been ages ago!
Uday
:D
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Wasn’t doing much today - rainy sitting around bored - so I was looking back on the forum and came across this older thread and decided to add a couple of comments.
Bogdan , unfortunately true margins are driven by much more than just manufacturing cost. While it is correct that electronic keyboards have lower direct manufacturing costs, they often have significant other overhead costs, like design, development and support. And because the main selling platform has largely migrated to the internet rather than specialist shops and studios, they are under huge competitive pricing pressure. Margins on electronic instruments are often now razor thin, while that hasn't yet been the case for quality pianos.
And on Jeff’s point, he is correct that large corporations are organized into smaller units with a management team tasked with profitable day to day running. But the job of senior corporate management is not just to set targets and monitor these units. It is to set corporate direction, and setting direction is much more than just what is or is not currently profitable. It looks at longer term things like market trends, corporate strategy, availability of investment cash, and where best to leverage that investment.
Mike
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Wasn’t doing much today - rainy sitting around bored - ...
I know such days :)
Bogdan , unfortunately true margins are driven by much more than just manufacturing cost...
-I'm fully aware of that.
While it is correct that electronic keyboards have lower direct manufacturing costs, they often have significant other overhead costs, like design, development and support. ...
Support... what kind of support exactly? Hardware wise, there's only warranty repair... which luckily, isn't needed that often. If at all, then things break (or wear out) after few years and then parts & labor is paid by customer anyway. And on software side, there's nothing to be supported (ok, there could be, but it isn't). To put it with another words: right now nothing would be different for me, if Yamaha factory stopped existing at the time when I bough my keyboard.
Margins on electronic instruments are often now razor thin...
Agree. However it's important to know that margins are actually dictated by manufacturer (Yamaha in this case). Yamaha has different net pricing depending on market strength (USA, Europe, etc.). And to be competitive in region, a retailer can only add a minimal margin -let's say 10% (I speculate). Now let's assume every retailer in every market region has 10% margin. But if we compare prices for PSR-SX900, for example, in:
Europe: 2045€ (https://www.thomann.de/intl/yamaha_psr_sx900.htm)
India: 1191€ (https://rajmusical.com/yamaha-psr-sx900-arranger-workstation-keyboard.html)
-then we can imagine how much margin is kept by manufacturer.
Philosophy is quite simple: because consumer in wealthy region can afford to pay more, manufacturer just sets net price accordingly higher -this has nothing to do with manufacturing costs (I'm sure that Yamaha makes profit in India too).
Doesn't matter if I'm right or wrong in my thinking... these things are always darn too expensive :)
Bogdan
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Bogdan, you’re certainly right that customer support may not be not be huge, but my experience was that a lot of support went to the sub contractors, manufacturing, suppliers, etc. , so it’s always there and has a significant overhead cost.
But my main thought was that everyone on the forum is speculating on how Yamaha has to produce a competitive product to Korg asap, and what needs to be in it, but really we have no idea on what the thinking is at corporate level in Yamaha.
Corporations look at things so differently from customers.
Mike
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Corporations look at things so differently from customers.
+1
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Support... what kind of support exactly?
A friendly chap at Yamaha USA just helped me out. I'm sure he and his family like to eat and have a place to live. :)
Yamaha's prices are relatively consistent across regions after currency conversion, VAT, tariffs and whatnot are taken into account. Yamaha may not feel compelled to sell up-scale products into all regions, however. Product offerings do vary by region.
Oh, well, feeling tired today -- pj
-- pj
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I read somewhere now forgotten that a salesman had approached Yamaha and they said they cannot divulge any information.
In my book if Yamaha said they cannot divulge information, it means there is something in the ethers.
Elemetary my dear Watson. :)
A German supplier, in response to my enquiry, informed me their sales department had contacted Yamaha, no information on a new Genos and/or its potential logistics/delivery is currently available, and that if such information were made available to the supplier, “they regrettably will not share with customers”… :)
The anticipation is as sweet as the anticipation for my upcoming first child (expected to arrive in Feb :).
I waited a long time for the KorgPA5x (88), and then unfortunately had to return it after 10 days, buttons were loose (floating), could not switch between headphones and speakers without unplugging or turning off the speakers (my DGX-670 had this option)…
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This entire thread is based entirely on speculation! No one really has a clue what Yamaha or any other manufacturer will be bringing to the table in the next few months, or years.
Gary 8)
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You are right there Gary. Yamaha never lets us know until just before it is ready to launch a new product. What will be will be.
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I ordered it a year ago , and I want it now :)
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every retailer in every market region has 10% margin. But if we compare prices for PSR-SX900, for example, in:
Europe: 2045€ (https://www.thomann.de/intl/yamaha_psr_sx900.htm)
India: 1191€ (https://rajmusical.com/yamaha-psr-sx900-arranger-workstation-keyboard.html)
-then we can imagine how much margin is kept by manufacturer.
Philosophy is quite simple: because consumer in wealthy region can afford to pay more, manufacturer just sets net price accordingly higher -this has nothing to do with manufacturing costs (I'm sure that Yamaha makes profit in India too).
Doesn't matter if I'm right or wrong in my thinking... these things are always darn too expensive :)
Bogdan
I'm afraid you're missing the mark there; I can tell you the difference isn't being made up by the retailer, and most likely not (much) by Yamaha either.
It has a *lot* to do with duties, & certification, which all ties up to population (or more accurately, market size).
I *wish* I could get a PSRsx900 for the price of 1 in India (that's well below cost here). But why?
When something is brought into a country, there's certification (among other things) that costs *per model* to certify. A different colour counts as a different model, hence why often there are other colours that aren't brought into North America (CSP170 white for example). I can't remember the rates, but it was in the hundreds of thousands $$$. I'm betting India doesn't have those certification requirements.
Oh and support? Yamaha does have a technical dept for some of the more deep delve questions, but for the most part, *local* support is supposed to be given by the dealers (like us).
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Bogdon, retailers could not open the doors to the stores with a 10 percent markup - 10 percent would not even cover the electric bill, let along taxes, store rental costs, water, heat, employee salary, employee taxes, etc... If you know someone that says they are only making 10 percent on keyboard sales, they either are not telling you the truth, or neglecting to tell you that it's what they are making after expenses, or not profit. I spent a lot of years in the retail business, with my own store, a sporting goods store that also sold boats, motors and trailers to 21 feet in length - high dollar items compared to arranger keyboards. The markup on them was about 15 percent, but the net profit was at best 2 percent. However, some of the sales exceeded $40,000 back then. The markup on small items, fishing tackle, rods, reels, marine accessories, hunting gear, etc..., was 35 to 40 percent.
The big markups in the retail business here are in furniture and appliances, which can be as much as 120 percent. And, they always want to sell you a service or insurance policy along with the product. Lots of bucks to be made there, as well.
All the best,
Gary 8)
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To be fair to Bogdan, he never said that the typical margin was 10%. He used it as an example to make the point that if the retail price varied between retailers/countries by a huge amount, then some retailers must be making a much bigger margin than others. His same argument holds even if he had used 25% as the number.
However, he is wrong there anyway, because that all assumes the retailer’s cost from the manufacturer is similar, and that might not be true. In fact it almost certainly is not the case.
There are many ways the manufacturer might justify different prices into different markets. Yamaha might be prepared to swallow almost no gross margin in one market if they can make enough in a different market, to cover operating expenses (indirect costs like R and D, admin etc, by having higher prices elsewhere., and still therefore generate a workable global net margin. Happens in the global corporations all, the time.
This kind of differential pricing might often make sense if it keeps manufacturing volume high ie fills the factories.
Mike
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Mike, thank you for explaining that "10% margin" thing -yes, was meant as an example obviously.
My profession was sales/marketing (not consumer electronics, though) and so I think I know a little about how it works. But that doesn't necessary mean that I'm right in my assumptions. I say assumptions, because we have no evidence -is just a discussion.
Every country has import costs, taxes, vat, etc. and although they might differ in naming, percent wise, the end result is usually very similar -economics dictates that. That is, if import price of some article is 100€, end price will be (let's say) 80% higher and that's true for US, Europe and India. Yes, it might be only 70% higher in some countries or it can be even 110% higher in others, but this is less relevant in this case. I mean, between 170€ and 210€ is only 24% difference -even in this case, import costs difference is 40%! What does make an important difference, is import price -because end price is (percent wise) based on import price.
I agree with Mike, that manufacturer can be ready to sell at some countries with very minimal profit: being present in market can be very important for future. However, I'm not sure that's the case for India. Why I think so? Because India has more than four times the population than US (for example) and I'm quite sure that much more PSR keyboards are sold in India than in US -probably more than in US+Europe together. And because of that, I just can't imagine that Yamaha would work on such huge market with minimal profit and cover profit difference with sales in US and Europe.
In short, we pay here more, because we can afford. Average monthly income in India is about 450€ and so the person there need to pay two monthly incomes for keyboard -now compare that with monthly income in US or Europe. And Yamaha knows that.
Ok, time for some practicing on my overpriced keyboard ;D
Bogdan
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Well you are right Bogdan, we don’t have enough data to know exactly the Yamaha strategies. But some things are universal. If you sell at negative gross margin that is a form of economic suicide, because then every keyboard is sold lower than COGS and requires a ‘subsidy’. If the lower price generates increased sales volume, - which is the whole point of lower price - all you are doing is losing more and more money and are on a death spiral.
But, theoretically at least, most overhead costs remain fixed. Lower prices, provided they don’t get below the point of negative gross margin, increase sales and the increase in sales volume therefore absorbs more overhead recovery. So I could see someone saying, for example, dropping the price in India will generate four times more sales volume, and that although each keyboard has a lower than ideal net margin, the total margin from India, and overall contribution to overhead is much improved.
mike