PSR Tutorial Forum

Genos (12 Boards) => Genos - General => Topic started by: RoyB on September 24, 2022, 11:26:08 AM

Title: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: RoyB on September 24, 2022, 11:26:08 AM
A lot was made of the new Korg PA5x Arranger on this forum so, as no one has mentioned it so far,  I thought I would start this thread about the forthcoming flagship arranger from Ketron called the Ketron Event.

So far, Ketron has only released this video teaser:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igss1qU9_8c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igss1qU9_8c)

* Professional Arranger. 76 half-weighted keys keyboard.
* New dual processor
* 128 Notes polyphony. Top quality Orchestral Sounds. 2 Voices ( 3 Sounds each )
* Performance. User Voice, User Style. Registrations.
* 3 Groove Section3, with new Loops and Midi Patterns
* New Digital Drawbars are back.
* 4 x DSP Effects. External DSP controls with potentiometers.
* More than 400 Styles. Full Audio Arrangements, featuring Live Drums, Real Bass and Real Chords, Live Guitars and 5 Midi Chords. 3 Lower Voices.
* Phrase Recording. Midi Song recording.
* User Sample Editor with 32 Splits, Stereo samples, up to 4 Layers

Other than the above highlights listed on this teaser, Ketron has not yet released any futher details on specs and features, but it has been inferred that it contains 'exciting' new creativity features.

To this right of the keyboard, there is a collection knobs which give real-time physical control of a number of DSP effects.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on September 24, 2022, 01:11:19 PM
Thank you, Roy for this Ketron video.
Their new arranger, I guess ?

I am very impressed by the sound quality of the guitar ( sounds like a Fender Stratocaster ) and the live sound of the drums.
A total different sound than the PA5X ( in my ears ).

Now I am sure Yamaha will also come with a new high end arranger keyboard.
And ... as I said before, there is no doubt in my mind Yamaha will show the world an arranger with a unique sound, equiped with their latest technology.

Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on September 24, 2022, 02:04:14 PM
I'm not a person of interest in this price category, but at least in my eyes, it's an example of fine italian design. 76 keys and no space wasted on each side -I think many will appreciate that in regard of portability (even I think, that  joystick is more practical to use).

Ok, visually, it's a nice teaser. But as we all know, more important are the things that we can't see on that video. So, let's wait and be impressed hopefully :-)

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on September 24, 2022, 03:50:23 PM
Interesting. No tip screen? Is the screen a capacitive touch screen? Great sounds! Yamaha has a lot of homework to do. If they stick with the status quo of inferior pianos, organs, etc and out of date styles, they'll get swamped by the other arrangers. I have faith though 😀!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: usaraiya on September 24, 2022, 04:47:54 PM
Superb sounds, like the Pedal Steel guitar, live drums, which they call "Real Drums," "Real bass," real everything, style modeling, and it goes on and on. It feels like an ideal TOTL arranger, and we'll know in a few weeks.
What can we expect from Genos 2 to knock our socks off? Holding my breath, I hope I don't pass out!
 :)
Uday
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: tyrosman on September 24, 2022, 06:07:00 PM
A lot was made of the new Korg PA5x Arranger on this forum so, as no one has mentioned it so far,  I thought I would start this thread about the forthcoming flagship arranger from Ketron called the Ketron Event.

So far, Ketron has only released this video teaser:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igss1qU9_8c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igss1qU9_8c)

* Professional Arranger. 76 half-weighted keys keyboard.
* New dual processor
* 128 Notes polyphony. Top quality Orchestral Sounds. 2 Voices ( 3 Sounds each )
* Performance. User Voice, User Style. Registrations.
* 3 Groove Section3, with new Loops and Midi Patterns
* New Digital Drawbars are back.
* 4 x DSP Effects. External DSP controls with potentiometers.
* More than 400 Styles. Full Audio Arrangements, featuring Live Drums, Real Bass and Real Chords, Live Guitars and 5 Midi Chords. 3 Lower Voices.
* Phrase Recording. Midi Song recording.
* User Sample Editor with 32 Splits, Stereo samples, up to 4 Layers

Other than the above highlights listed on this teaser, Ketron has not yet released any futher details on specs and features, but it has been inferred that it contains 'exciting' new creativity features.

To this right of the keyboard, there is a collection knobs which give real-time physical control of a number of DSP effects. i dont kno why this has any thing to do with Genos
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: tyrosman on September 24, 2022, 06:08:20 PM
why on Earth has this got any thing to do with genos >:(
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on September 24, 2022, 06:30:15 PM
Hey Tyrosman :

Another Genos' competitor, maybe ?

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on September 24, 2022, 09:25:59 PM
It has everything to do with the Genos. Basic business principle.

Competition makes a company great, otherwise they sit back in their padded leather chairs counting their profits, while some smaller company brings out a far superior product. It's happened a lot. Classic example: Japanese cars in the 70s nearly destroyed the entire Big Three auto makers in the US because the Japanese solved the problem of gas guzzling cars in the midst of an energy crisis, while the Americans were satisfied with the status quo and did nothing but continue to produce 8-cylinder muscle cars so Mrs. Smith could drive three blocks to the grocery store. But I digress...🙄.

Oh yes, Korg and Ketron are in the process of helping all us Genos users. They're going to make Yamaha sit up and take notice. We'll prevail. The more TOTL arrangers, the better 😀!!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Gunnar Jonny on September 24, 2022, 09:53:33 PM
It has everything to do with the Genos. Basic business principle.

Competition makes a company great...
The more TOTL arrangers, the better 😀!!

+1  :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on September 25, 2022, 06:05:04 AM
Hi :

I wonder when Yamaha will finally come with their answer ?

Hope their video teaser will follow very, very soon to make a dream come true.
Before the end of this year ?

Best wishes, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Gunnar Jonny on September 25, 2022, 11:04:41 AM
why on Earth has this got any thing to do with genos >:(

Well, if we cannot speak about and compare other competitors products, it will be dull and sad. :o
Even at Korg forum they discuss and compare Yamaha and Ketron like it should be the most normal thing to chat about in the whole wide world......
Earlier in a post someone suggested that it could be opened a dedicated part here at PSR, in example 'Chat about other brands'. Think it got thumbs down, but maybe that was a good idea after all?
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: genosmusic on September 25, 2022, 11:31:05 AM
Technics and Rowland Discontinued their Arranger Keyboard lines
as sales were very poor.
Yamaha will do the same, as creating new build keyboards
for production line is very expensive, when Arranger sales are poor.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ckobu on September 25, 2022, 12:58:46 PM
Technics and Rowland Discontinued their Arranger Keyboard lines
as sales were very poor.
Yamaha will do the same, as creating new build keyboards
for production line is very expensive, when Arranger sales are poor.

I don't believe so.
New Ketron video ...

Jazz players in a keyboard
https://youtu.be/QpzKndCMOkg (https://youtu.be/QpzKndCMOkg)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: genosmusic on September 25, 2022, 01:32:03 PM
I am sad for rowland and technics
people no longer upgrade any more.

(https://i.imgur.com/C821Y6L.png)

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on September 25, 2022, 01:32:42 PM
... in example 'Chat about other brands'. Think it got thumbs down...

I think we must be open minded and capable to look outside our box -being a fanboy of particular brand is never a good thing. I'm sure Korg Pa5X is an excellent product and I hope Ketron will surprise too. Why? Because that means Yamaha (which I'm used to) will need do make even something better, to attract me to buy Yamaha new keyboard again. If not, I will switch to another brand -simple as that. I mean, I'm happy with my current keyboard, but I'm not married to it. So, the better the competition is, the better it is for me.

Quote
Technics and Rowland Discontinued their Arranger Keyboard lines as sales were very poor.
Yamaha will do the same, as creating new build keyboards for production line is very expensive, when Arranger sales are poor.

I don't think that will happen with Yamaha:
1. because it's business in not based only on musical instruments
2. Yamaha is still recognized as quality brand
3. competition actually isn't that big

But things can happen very fast. 40 years back, Technics was one of the most innovative brands in audio industry. But then they started to make bad decisions: to save money, products became more and more low quality and lacked innovations. At the end, even keyboard department still had quite good product, Panasonic decided to shut down the whole Technics brand. And now they are known by electric toothbrushes, shavers and some other not important stuff. Don't get me wrong, Panasonic is still big company -it's just less known in consumer market.

Roland right now.. I don't think they're doing well. I've seen a video not long ago, where it turned out that Roland is buying some chinese entry level keyboard and sells them under Roland brand. I mean... seriously?
On the other hand, chinese Medeli became worldwide known for it's AK-X10 keyboard -not without the reason!

So, I think we should keep eyes open.. and enjoy playing music on... whatever we have  :)

Just sharing my thoughts,
Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on September 25, 2022, 01:46:43 PM
From that recent video about Ketron's new release, it sounds like they are using Band In A Box (BIAB) styling technology. For those who have never used this program, all you do is insert the basic chords in a song and BIAB generates the correct styling complete with stylistic chords. It can be Country, Jazz, Blues, you name it BIAB will do it. That, combined with what sounds like round robin styling, will make the Ketron a most formidable competitor to the PA5X and Genos 2. But there's more...

It's one thing to produce perfect sounds and styles on a new arranger. It's another thing to make the device usable. Many have criticized the PA5X operating system as being clunky and too tech orientated. This falls under the category of "usability." For the better part, the Genos is easy to use, other than the Style Editor being similar to a bull in China shop. If Korg and Ketron have produced a superior product than the Genos, that's one thing. If their OS system is clunky or too complicated, Yamaha has little to worry about. I'm sure Genos 2 will give these two other companies pause.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: genosmusic on September 25, 2022, 01:59:57 PM
Genos is due for Discontinued
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Toril S on September 25, 2022, 02:09:52 PM
Where did you get that info?
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on September 25, 2022, 02:12:20 PM
Genos is due for Discontinued
True. Genos 1 would be discontinued when Genos 2 comes out 😉.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on September 25, 2022, 03:30:48 PM
Genos is due for Discontinued
Dear @Genosmusic, nobody knows if you are right and you don't know either. Since you just signed up and made your first post, you might know that everyone (including myself) yells every now and then. I suspect most are saying this out of 'frustration' or 'disappointment' because Yamaha hasn't communicated with its customers for so long and some of them are getting impatient. Understandable. Of course you are free to mention such 'certain' statements in your post. There are plenty of those in this forum. Is that bad or do I find that disturbing? No, as far as I'm concerned: it's part of the game and sometimes adds some color to the discussion. After all, it's not about earth-shattering topics and every forum member is perfectly capable of finding their own. It only becomes more credible if you cite a verifiable legitimate source, which you probably won't have. The future usually shows which speculations have become truths. ;)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: andyg on September 25, 2022, 04:03:36 PM
Technics' decision to pull out of all music instruments, not just keyboards, had nothing to do with poor sales. Big corporate decision from the parent company Matsushita that they could make more money doing other things.

As for Roland, no-one - apart from those high enough up in the company - knows why they stopped arranger keyboards, but then started making 'backing keyboards' that did almost the same thing! We know that Mr K's departure hastened the end for Atelier organs and I sometimes wonder if internal personality clashes and disagreements had something to do with the arrangers. I doubt if anyone will tell! :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: tyrosman on September 25, 2022, 04:18:16 PM
Genos is due for Discontinued
i dont thinks so this is false >:(
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on September 25, 2022, 04:21:43 PM
Hi :

The Ketron EVENT looks nice and impressive.

BUT ... specs, sound quality, styles, voices, applications, reliability and prices are not known yet.
IMO it is too early to evaluate this arranger yet.  :P

However, If it sounds like it looks like, perhaps it might become a commercial success, if it is reliable too.

Before jumping to conclusions, I am going to wait for Yamaha's answer first.
I am a loyal Yamaha customer for more than 20 years. NEVER met any problems with one of my Yamaha high end arranger keyboards.

Hopefully their answer will officially be published before January 1, 2023 to avoid many ( potential ) customers would be disappointed.

All the best, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Gunnar Jonny on September 25, 2022, 05:16:37 PM

The Ketron EVENT looks nice and impressive....
However, If it sounds like it looks like, perhaps it might become a commercial success...

Hi Jeff.
It sounds real good too, and if this video at Ketrons webpage is a result of just loading a style and play along and if the rest of the styles sounds as good and balanced as this, it probably will be a success! 
After all, the majority of arranger players use styles and 'autocomp', and what there is to find in the styles and soundarea is the major point before start explore the OS and userfriendlyness. Looking forward to the day we get to see all specs. Exiting.

www.ketron.it/en (http://www.ketron.it/en)   (Remeber to uncheck the mute in video if no sound)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on September 25, 2022, 06:45:00 PM
Hey Jonny G :

Up to now the Ketron brand has never been so popular in The Netherlands.
The Ketron Audya5 was an exception. 
Giggers and vocalists were impressed by the " natural "sound of the voices and audio styles of the Audya5.
The Audya5 and 4 ( module ) were expensive compared to Yamaha and Korg.

Since 2002 most customers wanted to have a Yamaha arranger keyboard only.
The Tyros was the most wanted arranger ... and perhaps still is.  ;)

I really wonder if the Event will be a reliable arranger ?
I am aware Ketron have replaced and ( apparently ) improved their OS now. 

Wait and see but I would be very cautious if I were a buyer.

Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: maartenb on September 26, 2022, 11:33:38 AM
While the short Ketron Event clip sounds very good, I am very cautious with Audio Styles. It's very inflexible. I love MIDI styles, where you can change the sound of a style track.

I made songs with the Audio drums on the Tyros 5 and now I can only play them without drums on the Genos. I am sooooo glad Yamaha stepped away from Audio Drums and started using Revo drums! These are the best of both worlds: they sound very realistic, yet are still 100% MIDI and you can do whatever you want with them.

Same for the voices: I would rather have Super Articulation than audio phrases. Full control, 100% MIDI.


Maarten

P.S. When this new arranger is presented, will that moment be called a Ketron Event event?  :o I'll see myself out...  ;)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on September 26, 2022, 11:56:28 AM
 Most arranger keyboard players ( will ) prefer midi - instead of audio styles and voices.
 
 I fully agree with your very interesting and useful comments, Maartenb !

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on September 26, 2022, 12:47:10 PM
Excellent point, Maarten. Editing MIDI is infinitely easier than audio. We just need a decent Style Editor/Creator. An external Windows or Mac program linked via MIDI USB or Bluetooth would be heaven! Even an emulator program that works with Cubase would suffice. Creating or modifying a style in Cubase and importing it back into the Genos would be excellent
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mixermixer on September 26, 2022, 12:51:40 PM
Very interesting, though pretty moot point for us "USA" players since ketron has no market presence over this side of the pond.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on September 26, 2022, 12:58:47 PM
Very interesting, though pretty moot point for us "USA" players since ketron has no market presence over this side of the pond.
Heck, I never thought of that. I assume it's the same in Canada? No dealers? They could ship us one but the cost of shipping would double the price of the keyboard, nor would we able to demo it.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Gunnar Jonny on September 26, 2022, 01:01:12 PM
Very interesting, though pretty moot point for us "USA" players since ketron has no market presence over this side of the pond.

It's not totally empty 'over there'  ;)
https://www.ketronamerica.com/
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on September 26, 2022, 01:15:08 PM
Hi Guys :

The new Event ( Ketron ) might not be interesting for most of us, IMHO.

No MIDI - No FUN : see very smart comments given by Maartenb.


Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on September 26, 2022, 01:32:39 PM
I must admit a fantastic guitar sound on demo
I think that a new Genos will be out shortly 8)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on September 26, 2022, 02:13:24 PM
It looks to be true, John.   :)

Hope the new Yamaha high end arranger will be #1, as usual.
And ... for me 61k are a must. No 76k ! Lack of space. 8)

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on September 26, 2022, 02:26:21 PM
Ketron has always made interesting products, and quite innovative, but the company was just too small to build large distribution/support networks. The presence in the USA was quite limited so only got traction on word of mouth mainly between pro players. I did hear a demo and play one briefly at the arranger get together Don Mason organized, and was particularly impressed by the piano voices, and the whole thing was pretty good. On the negative side there were comments I heard about bugs in the OS and lack of resources to get them resolved.
The Ketron and the the PA5X are the main competitors for the Genos, although Genos is the clear market leader. But at the moment they have both made what seems like a significant step ahead of Yamaha. And so far the silence from Yamaha on the next TOTL arranger has been deafening.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on September 26, 2022, 03:07:22 PM
Apparently it looks like Yamaha will announce a new high end arranger soon, Mike. Not confirmed by Yamaha yet.
Let us cross our fingers.

Kind regards. JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on September 26, 2022, 03:50:14 PM
And will you be the first to buy one Jeff as you have written so many hopes that it comes out soon.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on September 26, 2022, 04:29:35 PM
Hey Eileen :

A good question.
I cannot answer that question right now due to recent health problems in my family.

If e.g.the new one will available in 61 keys ( lack of space in our apartment for 76 k ), I might be interested in buying that new arranger at the end of 2023.

Time will tell.
Best regards, JH


Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on September 26, 2022, 05:51:18 PM
Apparently it looks like Yamaha will announce a new high end arranger soon,
Kind regards. JH
Don't know how you deduce that, it might or might not turn out to be the case, but there is currently zero evidence to support such a statement.
It might be interesting to know if there is to be a new Genos, but I really don't think its a big concern for most forum members. If they like their Genos, which most do, then they are not desperately waiting with fingers crossed for a new model, and if they are disappointed with their Genos they have a couple of new choices to look at - Korg and Ketron. Its all good. 
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Del B on September 26, 2022, 06:48:09 PM
And will you be the first to buy one Jeff as you have written so many hopes that it comes out soon.
;D
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on September 27, 2022, 09:57:04 AM
;D

Ouch!! ::)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on September 27, 2022, 01:11:36 PM
Let's not kid ourselves. When Yamaha posts the first 45 second teaser video for Genos 2, everyone on this forum will suddenly have overactive salivary glands. Even those with no intention of upgrading will comb over the video in awe of this new creation from Yamaha 😁. And those who will be upgrading will simply not sleep at night 🤣.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on September 27, 2022, 09:27:39 PM
Here's the newest video sound demonstration from the Ketron Event arranger keyboard that I found on YouTube. I didn't notice any other posting of the same link in this thread but I just skimmed through them since a lot of people posted a comment. Anyway, here ya go...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ6sLw95mXs
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on September 27, 2022, 09:52:24 PM
As a follow-up, this raises the bar for sound quality in the style category. All the styles on the Event are fully audio and have good sound quality and presence. The drums sound very natural as do the guitars. But I'm somewhat concerned that what we're hearing may be .mp3 (compressed) audio not .wav (uncompressed) audio. You can make .mp3 sound pretty good but .wav (uncompressed) audio is a whole lot better because compressed audio loses both high-end and bass response. Uncompressed audio reveals more of how a recording and playback should actually sound since it retains more of the audio data and therefore resulting in better sound quality. If the Event styles are .mp3 I would expect Yamaha to give the Genos 2 .wav audio styles to one-up the competition.  8)

Best,

Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on September 27, 2022, 09:56:36 PM
Quote
But I'm somewhat concerned that what we're hearing may be .mp3 (compressed) audio not .wav (uncompressed) audio.
...not to mention that YouTube applies its own compression. They need to get into the modern world of sound and make sure every video's audio track plays back at about the same level. One minute, you're hearing a low signal, the next minute, you're killed with high dB!!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on September 28, 2022, 06:17:52 AM
Hello. Here is the Original playlist demos of EVENT in 16 bit/44khz (uncompressed) wav file.
It's an official list and I have company approval for these demos since I'm working for Event for a year as a developer.
This guy on YouTube took them from here and and after downloading them made the video.
Thanks
https://soundcloud.com/sokratis-1974/sets/ketron-event
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Gunnar Jonny on September 28, 2022, 08:34:17 AM
Thank you Socratis.
It sounds **** good, if I may say so. Actually sounds like a real band.  8)
I think Audiostyles is the future. Just look at BiaB, it's amazing how much it has evolved.
Looking forward to see more of the features and specs....
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on September 28, 2022, 08:48:54 AM
I think I'm quite sensitive to audio quality... But I challenge everyone above the age of 30, to recognize the difference between wav and hi quality mp3 just by listening. Saying that, the problem is not mp3 format itself. It's more about the quality of audio source before converting to mp3 and what compression settings are used.
Youtube is recommending to use high audio quality for uploading, but not every Youtube uploader knows how to do it properly.

Just my 2 cents,
Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on September 28, 2022, 12:22:34 PM
NEW VIDEO https://youtu.be/u3Ab71Rf77U
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: maartenb on September 28, 2022, 04:28:21 PM
I challenge everyone above the age of 30, to recognize the difference between wav and hi quality mp3 just by listening.
This.

A 128 kilobit per second constant bit rate MP3 may be discernible from a wav audio file if you do a direct A/B comparison. But 192 and 256 kbps MP3s are almost impossible to distinguish from the original wav. And 320 kbps sounds exactly as the wav, even if you have golden ears.


Maarten
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on September 28, 2022, 05:51:52 PM
Given the average age of arranger users, for most even the 128 will not be discernible from wav!
One of the disadvantages of forums is that there will always be a few purists and ‘experts’ that make a big deal of things that don’t matter to most of us.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on September 28, 2022, 10:59:39 PM
NEW VIDEO https://youtu.be/u3Ab71Rf77U

This is the first instance of someone actually playing the Event arranger. The quality of the sounds the person played were excellent in my opinion. More playing, please! I know Ketron is teasing us by building up a crescendo of hype so I guess we'll have to be patient. Two things I really question. The Pitch and Modulation are wheels like the Tyros series but a Joystick actually can give you more control and nuance to the sounds you play. Also, it only has 128-note polyphony. The original Audya which came out years ago actually had 192-note polyphony. Why the regression? The Genos has 256 polyphony although divided between the Preset sounds and the Expansion sounds. The new Korg Pa5X has 160-note polyphony so Korg is making progress. Both the Event and the Pa5X are produced in Italy. I realize Ketron is a relatively small company compared to the Big Three but boosting the polyphony of the Event, in my opinion, would be more of an incentive to plunk down your hard-earned cash for the Event because it would be considered more of a future-proof keyboard. 💡 I really like the Event from what I've heard and seen so far but I'll wait and see what Yamaha has to offer on the Genos successor. I'm hoping the Genos 2 will have 256-note polyphony across the entire range of the keyboard no matter what section you play from i.e. Preset/Legacy or Expansion.

All the best,

Mike 
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on September 29, 2022, 12:00:51 AM
This.

A 128 kilobit per second constant bit rate MP3 may be discernible from a wav audio file if you do a direct A/B comparison. But 192 and 256 kbps MP3s are almost impossible to distinguish from the original wav. And 320 kbps sounds exactly as the wav, even if you have golden ears.


Maarten

There is about four times the amount of information (data) per audio second in the uncompressed format as there is in the highest-quality MP3 file. Sony and Philips set the bitrate for compact discs in 1980 at 1,411 kbps at 16-bit as we all know. But, of course, you can record/listen at a higher bit rate i.e. 24-bit @192kHz, etc. With a 16-bit audio file, there are over 65,000 possible levels available for capture. If you step up to 24-bit audio, the capacity reaches over 16.7 million levels. More data captured reveals better sound quality in music. A violin for example or any other instrument for that matter. You are able to hear more 'detail' in the instruments/music/song which equates to better overall sound quality. An MP3 file at 256/320 kbps is ideal for general listening. But if you've got good ears with no noticeable hearing loss do yourself a favor and record/listen to music in uncompressed (.wav) audio format if possible. It takes up more space on your computer/phone of course so depending on how much free space is available is worth noting. Another thing. Buy some really nice full-range speakers (goes for everybody if your budget allows) that are made specifically for professional audio reproduction. Speakers are every bit as important as the songs/music you listen to, whether in .mp3 or .wav audio. Cheers. PS: I see Maarten has the Yamaha HS-7 speakers which is a great choice. 👍
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Gunnar Jonny on September 29, 2022, 12:02:39 AM
I noticed this from the video:
"The new State of the Art    Audio Arranger"

Another video at Ketron USA's site: https://youtu.be/cEbipISmhG0 (https://youtu.be/cEbipISmhG0)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on September 29, 2022, 12:21:06 AM
Isn't polyphony a moot point when you're dealing with audio styles? A minimal amount of polyphony would be adequate for the right hand playing function?
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: usaraiya on September 29, 2022, 01:02:36 AM
💡 I really like the Event from what I've heard and seen so far but I'll wait and see what Yamaha has to offer on the Genos successor. I'm hoping the Genos 2 will have 256-note polyphony across the entire range of the keyboard no matter what section you play from i.e. Preset/Legacy or Expansion.

All the best,

Mike

Mike,

Do you have definite release information for Genos 2 soon, or like all of us, hoping/guessing?

 :)
Uday
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on September 29, 2022, 02:28:31 AM
Isn't polyphony a moot point when you're dealing with audio styles? A minimal amount of polyphony would be adequate for the right hand playing function?

Hi Lee. Yeah, you don't need to worry about polyphony when dealing with audio files. So that is a great point since supposedly all the styles on the Event are audio styles. So yes, you will use less polyphony when playing the keys along with styles, and multi-pads, which are all triggered by MIDI, since the styles are audio. But in this day and age when everything on arrangers today have become more sophisticated and complex more polyphony is always better. For example, playing the keys along with a midi file, using the sustain pedal when playing, voice layering i.e. (R1, R2, R3, Left) at the same time, you start to run out of polyphony quite rapidly. Plus single instrument sounds themselves are oftentimes already layered thus consuming more polyphony. Today's top-of-the-line Arrangers should have at LEAST 256-note polyphony but that's just me. Note drop out during a live performance can be quite frustrating as many professional keyboardists can attest to. And you don't want your audience to start throwing tomatoes, right?  ;)

We still have many questions regarding the new Event arranger. How much will it cost? It doesn't show any information at all on the Event on the Ketron USA website that I could tell. How much does it weigh? How fast are the "Dual Processors"? Does it have Seamless Sound Switching like the Korg Pa5X? After hearing AJ play the Event it most likely doesn't. SSS is a game changer IMO and so that gives the Korg Pa5X a huge leg up on the competition. I guess in the weeks and months ahead will finally get to the bottom of what the Event can do including all the features and functions, etc. Although, if it's anything like the roll-out of the Pa5X perhaps will see the Event in stores in the USA by mid-April 2023?  :(

All the best,

Mike

 
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on September 29, 2022, 09:58:05 AM
Yes, for those who consider a new keybaord, 2023 will be an exiting year. There are 3 leading branches; Ketron, Korg and Yamaha.That is good news for us as consumers.
This Ketron Event (half 2023?), Korg PA5X (fully updated with new releases  begin 2023), and the new Yamaha Genos with 61, 76 and 88 keys (half 2023)...happy new year  ;D
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on September 29, 2022, 10:39:53 AM
I'm aware that this topic doesn't belong into this forum section, but as it was already mentioned, it needs to be clarified so someone wouldn't make wrong conclusions.
CD audio quality is defined by:
*sample rate of 44.100kHz -that's the lowest sample rate at which flat frequency response of 20Hz-20kHz is possible (in stereo).
*bit depth of 16bit -defines sampling precision of dynamic range (over-simplified: precision of loudness).
*wav format -is recorded data stream (means, series of 16bit numbers sampled at given sample rate) saved on media.
-that's the shortest simplified definition.

If we look at keyboard specifications, we can see, that the sound from our keyboard has exactly the same specifications. And it doesn't matter if we record digitally on keyboard, or if we use the audio output on back panel -because the source is the same.

..But, of course, you can record/listen at a higher bit rate i.e. 24-bit @192kHz, etc...
-yes, one can do that, but the quality will still be the same (as coming from keyboard). In short: quality of the sound depends on source. We can't change that afterwards by increasing recording parameters.
Higher bit- and sample rates are (only) used for master recordings in studios. Reason being, to make final product to sound as intended, a lot of sound post-processing is needed. And by doing this, audio quality might degrade. Means, master track of higher quality is used, so final sound still can have CD quality.

Now, depending on compression settings, mp3 still has sample rate of 44.100kHz and bit depth of 16bit. So where's the catch? It's called bit rate, which can be 8kbps all the way up to 320kbps. Chosen bit rate defines amount of compression, which directly influences the size of the file.. and the quality of sound.
So what is actually sacrificed in mp3? The shortest answer would be: frequency response. But in reality, it's not that simple. Depending on compression settings, only some (not all) of high frequencies are removed. This can easily be seen (on spectrogram) if we choose bit rate of 192kbps. In this case, we can see, that sound between 16kHz and 18kHz is still present. However not all frequencies in this range are covered. Which frequencies will remain depends on source (music complexity). Anyway, mp3 doesn't cut at low frequency range. The thing is, while we can hear (and "feel") low frequencies regardless of our age, high frequency perception degrades all the time as we age -without exception. And so, majority of people above the age of 30 can't hear sounds much above 16kHz. Yeah, guys at Fraunhofer Institute were quite smart when they invented mp3.

But one thing needs to be mentioned. With wav file, audio quality doesn't degrade if we re-save it again and again. That's not necessary the case for mp3 files -at the end, it's called "lossy" format. And finally, not all mp3 codec behave exactly the same. And so, for archiving purpose (of music we make on keyboard), I recommend using wav file, which we can use as master file in case of later post-processing. Or even better, we convert wav to flac format -that way we reduce file sizes substantially and still keep the original quality.

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on September 29, 2022, 01:21:06 PM
Bogdan, it's very common on these forums for people to drift off topic a bit. I think it's healthy and thank you for the excellent clarification of those audio terms. We're one giant group and even though we disagree and point fingers the odd time, when all is said and done, we're a Genos family. If we were all in a giant convention center having a beverage and meal together, most of the discussions would be centered around the Genos but there would be a lot of side drifting about other things. Your input is valuable and welcome.

Interesting how you mentioned about human hearing topping out around 16kHz. I've been an amateur speaker designer for 45 years. I've studied the designs of the larger producers, one of which was Altec Lansing. Anyone who has been to a movie theater has likely listened to a movie through a medium to large Altec "Voice of the Theater" (VOTT) sound system. Their speakers are still used in several theaters around the world. To your point, their larger systems had an F3 of 17.5kHz, their theory being that most humans can't hear much past that frequency as adults. Altec came up with that number in the 1950s. For those who don't know what F3 stands for, it is the highest frequency a speaker system can produce before that frequency drops off by -3dB. Hence, the coined term, F3. Interesting! You're right on the money!!

I own a mint pair of VOTT A-7-800 speakers. I bought them in 1973. I've had the tweeter diaphragms restored and one bass driver has a slight rub in the voice coil but they still sound great. I use them in my home theater, along with two new subs of my own design. They take the heavy lifting off the older Altec bass drivers.

Once again, sorry to the OP for drifting way..........off topic 😀.

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on September 29, 2022, 02:07:39 PM

Hi Guys :

Apparently in the past, Ketron had bugs with their Audya 5's software they never could resolve.
I don't have any further information what was wrong.
Was it just a rumour or true ?

The new Event seems to be equipped with a complete new OS.

Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on September 29, 2022, 02:42:56 PM
Hello Jeff,
I don't have much knowledge, if any, about Ketron -simply because it's above my budget limit. And my guess would be, that's the case for many other Yamaha owners. And when we check on Youtube, it's hard to find non-biased (non-paid) reviews.

A while back I stumbled on "Tiho" Youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/user/Tiho2012/videos
If you look at his older content, you can see that he owned many TOTL keyboards, including Genos. So he might be a valuable source (Ketron vs Genos) from first hand experience. Btw. most of his videos are also in english language.

I just thought, some of us (Yamaha owners) would be interested to know "what's Ketron about". Speaking for me, I follow Ketron just to be informed, as I'm always interested on innovations.

@Lee Batchelor
Of course I remember Altec Lansing... it was (still is?) synonymo for high quality sound. I never had any Altec, though.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on September 29, 2022, 02:51:18 PM
Mike,

Do you have definite release information for Genos 2 soon, or like all of us, hoping/guessing?

 :)
Uday

Hi, Uday. I don't have any particular release date information to give you. That said, I live not far from the Yamaha US Music Division headquarters in Buena Park, CA. I called there recently to order parts and everyone I've spoken to seems really friendly and happy and even exhilarated. Perhaps that means something big is about to happen? When you've got a blockbuster product in the works people tend to be optimistic and even jovial because they know people will be in for a real treat. So if I'm reading the situation correctly Genos2 could be forthcoming soon but perhaps not until the 2023 holiday season since Yamaha and other vendors are probably a couple of years behind schedule as a result of the global pandemic and the supply chain/chip crisis. So, as you say, it's just speculation at this point. Somebody at Yamaha knows the real skinny but I think Yamaha Japan made every employee sign a non-disclosure agreement to keep everything sealed up and tight-lipped. But if anyone from Yamaha is listening in and wants to provide an update we're all ears. Uh Huh, I didn't think so.  ;D

All the best,

Mike 
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on September 30, 2022, 12:05:43 PM
Here is a new demo from the Ketron Event. It's a very nice Flugel Horn. Note: The Genos also has a superb Flugel Horn as we all know. Cheers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q_MbeQvpFU

Here's a Country Waltz style with an ac. Piano played by one of Ketron's employee musicians, I reckon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3deAuYNvjk

Best,

Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on September 30, 2022, 12:56:15 PM
These demos sound very good. It’s not possible from just a demo to know the detail of the keyboard performance, —  things like ease of use, depth of features, possible OS glitches — but certainly the the voices and styles seem outstanding.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: usaraiya on September 30, 2022, 01:34:02 PM
Another great demo of breathy Sax sounds from Ketron Event.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oE1G7Gfz_Ww

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on September 30, 2022, 02:53:51 PM
Another great demo of breathy Sax sounds from Ketron Event.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oE1G7Gfz_Ww
This video has been removed. Anyone else able to see it?
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on October 01, 2022, 07:51:04 PM
Interesting! I looked for the video online and couldn't find it. What would make AJ remove the uploaded file? I guess some people heard it before it was yanked and supposedly it sounded great. Did anyone that listened to it before it was deleted notice any anomaly in the recording? If that's the case, maybe AJ decided to redo it. It's the weekend so maybe he was stretched for time and had other commitments. Or it could be that Ketron Italy told him to slow down and let them trickle out more slowly. FWIW, most keyboard manufacturers i.e. the Big Three, Casio, Kurzweil, Nord, etc., when they have a new product ready for release they'll usually leak some info about the product to notify the public, and then comes the official announcement and we're all inundated with a LOT of information, demos, videos, etc. Not Ketron.  ;D  Anyway, since most of us haven't heard the "Breathy Tenor Sax" demo yet, I thought I'd post a demo of the Genos "Breathy Tenor Sax" in action. It's a rendition of a Sonny Rollins/John Coltrane number from the 1950s.

Genos S.Art2 Breathy Tenor Sax (https://www.dropbox.com/s/s4lafokustzd9ob/S.Art2%20Breathy%20Tenor%20Sax.wav?dl=0) 

All the best,

Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Strideplayer on October 01, 2022, 08:23:46 PM
I don't believe so.
New Ketron video ...

Jazz players in a keyboard
https://youtu.be/QpzKndCMOkg (https://youtu.be/QpzKndCMOkg)

This sounds similar to the sounds of the band backing Natalie Cole's Route 66.  Is any similarity purely coincidental?
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on October 02, 2022, 08:02:09 AM
Interesting! I looked for the video online and couldn't find it. What would make AJ remove the uploaded file? I guess some people heard it before it was yanked and supposedly it sounded great. Did anyone that listened to it before it was deleted notice any anomaly in the recording? If that's the case, maybe AJ decided to redo it. It's the weekend so maybe he was stretched for time and had other commitments. Or it could be that Ketron Italy told him to slow down and let them trickle out more slowly. FWIW, most keyboard manufacturers i.e. the Big Three, Casio, Kurzweil, Nord, etc., when they have a new product ready for release they'll usually leak some info about the product to notify the public, and then comes the official announcement and we're all inundated with a LOT of information, demos, videos, etc. Not Ketron.  ;D  Anyway, since most of us haven't heard the "Breathy Tenor Sax" demo yet, I thought I'd post a demo of the Genos "Breathy Tenor Sax" in action. It's a rendition of a Sonny Rollins/John Coltrane number from the 1950s.

Genos S.Art2 Breathy Tenor Sax (https://www.dropbox.com/s/s4lafokustzd9ob/S.Art2%20Breathy%20Tenor%20Sax.wav?dl=0) 

All the best,

Mike
Hello.
So.. Completely official demos are ONLY published by Ketron Italy.
Anything else is just not official so it's anyone's guess what that means.
The official Ketron YouTube chanel is it https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1_--gf1j27aX1wC99ZAWsA

Also a few days ago I uploaded a playlist with some demos of Event in my SoundCloud https://soundcloud.com/sokratis-1974/sets/ketron-event and in order to do this I had absolute approval from the company which published it on its Facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/Ketronsrl

I personally follow my NDA exactly and I do absolutely nothing arbitrary that is not known to the company.
P.S. Your demo with SAX is EXELENT!!
As a Genos user even today, I think above all this saxophones of Yamaha (Genos) are the best of any other Arranger/workstation in the world.
Really, the way they are programmed this Sax sounds by the Yamaha programmers is the most ingenious I have ever come across.
RESPECT!!


Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on October 02, 2022, 12:40:45 PM
Hi Sokratis 1974 :

Your new Event ( Ketron ) has Audio styles and voices only.
A nice looking arranger with good sounds ....
BUT ....
No Midi styles, no Midi voices might be a huge problem to convince Yamaha customers, IMHO.

Best regards, JH

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on October 02, 2022, 01:31:37 PM
Hi Sokratis 1974 :

Your new Event ( Ketron ) has Audio styles and voices only.
A nice looking arranger with good sounds ....
BUT ....
No Midi styles, no Midi voices might be a huge problem to convince Yamaha customers, IMHO.

Best regards, JH
Sorry my friend but this is a HUGE MYTH.
Who ever said that Ketron ONLY provides Audio Styles?
The truth is that he specializes in this type of style but!!
Who among you knows that Ketron is the only company which without any other conversion but with simply copy/paste on Modeling Folder of all Ketron models (SD9 etc) we can to have anything midi file riff  that you want to any midi channels (in Styles) we want without the slightest edit or process??
The Event as well as ALL Ketron,s arrangers are EXCELLENT and in the midi process thing that you obviously don't know..
And in the Event we have even more..

Also let me clarify.
I didn't make this post aboutn Ketron Enent and you spokes about Yamaha customers.
So let's make this clear so that no one thinks that I was doing some kind of promotion here.
Even when the first demos were announced, I here, respecting the role of the forum, did not make any announcements and this post was made by someone else.

P.S What do you mean No Midi Voice?
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on October 02, 2022, 07:13:38 PM
While the short Ketron Event clip sounds very good, I am very cautious with Audio Styles. It's very inflexible. I love MIDI styles, where you can change the sound of a style track.

I made songs with the Audio drums on the Tyros 5 and now I can only play them without drums on the Genos. I am sooooo glad Yamaha stepped away from Audio Drums and started using Revo drums! These are the best of both worlds: they sound very realistic, yet are still 100% MIDI and you can do whatever you want with them.

Same for the voices: I would rather have Super Articulation than audio phrases. Full control, 100% MIDI.


Maarten


Hey Sokratis 1974 :

I refer to Maartenb's above mentioned comments.
Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on October 03, 2022, 07:00:26 AM
Hey Sokratis 1974 :

I refer to Maartenb's above mentioned comments.
Best regards, JH

Dear Jeff.
The opinion of our friend is respected, but personally it does not give me an answer to what I asked.So I replied to the comment "No Midi styles, no Midi voices" which of course does not apply because Ketron, as I said before, is very advanced in midi styles and here I should probably make it more specific.So let's look at some functions when it comes to Ketron midi styles.

EDIT: I'M REFERRING TO THE MODELS THAT ALREADY EXIST (SD9, SD90, SD60 etc) AND NOT SPECIFIC TO THE EVENT

1 ) Drums Mixer with completed different mix in Variations directly from Main Screen without needing for this to be done exclusively by the Style Creator like Genos.Here we have Volume, Pan, Send FX, Compress Velocity and more for each Drum part.

2 ) Change Drum Sound for all Drum part (Kick, Snare, etc) different settings to each variation

3 ) Different key Chord inversion of Midi Chords, and different change octave for all Variations directly from mixer of Style Modeling.

4 ) Different TEMPO and Time Signature of each Variation with a very easy way.

5 ) Midi Bass possibilities :
A) ALTERNATE: This is a special mode for the alternate Bass that adapts it to the chord change according to the correct rule of musical harmony. For example, by not repeating the basic note or the fifth that you have played. This function works only in Styles where the alternate Bass is programmed with tonic and fifth intervals.
B) LIVE BASS: This function synchronizes the Bass immediately regardless of when the chord is played within a measure. In other words the Bass plays immediately when you play the note without waiting for the “down beat” of the measure. When this is off, the bass not is only heard on the down beat of the style’s measure.
C) VOICE LOCK: This locks the bass sound so that regardless of which style you pick or keyboard setting/Registration you load, the bass instrument does not change.
D) TO ROOT: The arranger takes all the melodic notes of the automatic Bass and plays them as a basic note of the chord. When playing a song, you can turn this on and off at various parts of the song to emulate a live-band feel.

6 ) Midi files phrase copy/paste phrase on the style modeling folder and WITHOUT ANY PROCESS OR EDIT we can activate this on every Midi Chord with different selections of different Variations and of course following the chords.

7 ) Style Modeling. A brilliant and ridiculously easy way to create our own new styles without a trace of editing..

8 ) AUTO CRASH (without Record) Sound hear whenever a fill in is pressed or when you switch from one variation to another.
The same way we have and in Intro, Fill
And so more...
Thanks.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on October 03, 2022, 08:08:19 AM
Thank you for your reply, Sokratis 1974 ! :)

When can the public expect the Event spec's, price(s) etc. ?

Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on October 03, 2022, 08:40:50 AM
Thank you for your reply, Sokratis 1974 ! :)

When can the public expect the Event spec's, price(s) etc. ?

Best regards, JH
I don't know dear Jeff. I hope soon.. :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 03, 2022, 11:32:55 AM
Thanks for that list, Sokratis. Many of those features are what we can only do in a DAW program. I'd buy that keyboard just for the live drum editor - something that was totally missed on the Genos! Yamaha has a lot of homework to do, although it wouldn't surprise me if they have it all set to go already 😁.

Questions
1- Is there any mention of seamless sound switching between registrations?
2- Will the Event be available in Canada?
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on October 03, 2022, 11:46:04 AM
Thanks for that list, Sokratis. Many of those features are what we can only do in a DAW program. I'd buy that keyboard just for the live drum editor - something that was totally missed on the Genos! Yamaha has a lot of homework to do, although it wouldn't surprise me if they have it all set to go already 😁.

Questions
1- Is there any mention of seamless sound switching between registrations?
2- Will the Event be available in Canada?

As it is in final stage of development before the release allow me to answer you after the official announcement. Thank you for understanding. :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on October 03, 2022, 12:32:40 PM
Hey Lee :

As mentioned by Sokratis, he has signed an NDA with his employer, Ketron Italy. Am I right, Sokratis ?
It is obvious he cannot answer ( our ) questions ( for the time being ), I guess.

Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Gunnar Jonny on October 03, 2022, 12:44:18 PM
Hi
There is some 'teasers' at AJ's YT-site that may be of interest for some.
The CtrWaltz sounds good in my ears.
Would be great to see more live play with all variations and change of sounds (memories) during a song with use of different styles.

https://www.youtube.com/user/AjamSonic (https://www.youtube.com/user/AjamSonic)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on October 03, 2022, 12:48:09 PM
Hey Lee :

As mentioned by Sokratis, he has signed an NDA with his employer, Ketron Italy. Am I right, Sokratis ?
It is obvious he cannot answer ( our ) questions ( for the time being ), I guess.

Best regards, JH
Exactly!! You are right dear Jeff.
So I will answer any questions you have after the official announcement.
Thanks
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on October 03, 2022, 01:05:30 PM
Sokratis' answer, as far as Event's Midi styles etc. are concerned, is confusing to me.
BUT ...
I am respecting his NDA and his other obligations.
No problem. Future will tell.

Regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Gunnar Jonny on October 03, 2022, 01:42:37 PM
I hope soon.. :)

If 'soon' have the same meaning today as when Ketron 'leaked' the arrival of Audya, we'll probably see an updated PA5X and a Genos successor (if any) before Event is out to  the stores.  ;D ;D ;D
Was going to replace my lovely SD1 that I sold, but the looooooong wait brought the G70 in as replacement......
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on October 03, 2022, 02:23:17 PM
Must admit I am not keen on the look of it as it seems quite bulky to me. No mention if it has a touch screen. Not very impressed.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on October 03, 2022, 02:51:27 PM
2- Will the Event be available in Canada?
Lee- I don’t know if things have moved forward with Ketron, but when I was interested in one some years back, all they had was a very loose arrangement of part time local representatives working from home. Not employees. The guy they had in Houston was pretty useless, not knowledgeable and couldn’t even play worth a darn.
They have AJ who seems to be Mr North America for Ketron, whom I met at Don Mason’s get together in Shreveport. AJ is a nice guy, based I think somewhere in the north east, and he is pretty expert, and a fair player. But I wasn’t sure if even he was a Ketron employee or just a gig player who represented them as a sideline. Mind you he did talk as if he had some input into Ketron design/development.
I think if you are interested in a Ketron, you would have to contact AJ, and find out if they have anyone in your area. But even if they do, when he would have a keyboard  to bring to your home to try (apparently that’s how they work) is anyone’s guess. I think it’s likely that Sokratis is one of these local representatives, so he has an inside track.
Basically, although the Ketron Audya seemed a great keyboard in many regards, their distribution and support network appeared pretty primitive. Reminded me of selling Tupperware. So good luck if you want to pursue it.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on October 03, 2022, 03:09:01 PM
Sokratis' answer, as far as Event's Midi styles etc. are concerned, is confusing to me.
BUT ...
I am respecting his NDA and his other obligations.
No problem. Future will tell.

Regards, JH
I wasn't specifically referring to Event Midi Styles, but I'm writing in my post (Ketron Midi Styles)
Whenever what I wrote above also applies to the models that are already on the market (SD 9, 90, 60 etc).
But you're right, maybe I should have clarified that.
The Event has even more new features related to Midi Styles.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on October 03, 2022, 03:12:31 PM
If 'soon' have the same meaning today as when Ketron 'leaked' the arrival of Audya, we'll probably see an updated PA5X and a Genos successor (if any) before Event is out to  the stores.  ;D ;D ;D
Was going to replace my lovely SD1 that I sold, but the looooooong wait brought the G70 in as replacement......
Hi Jonny
You are right. I also experienced this with Audya.
I wasn't in Ketron's team then.. But no.. I think it won't be long now..
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on October 03, 2022, 03:17:41 PM
Must admit I am not keen on the look of it as it seems quite bulky to me. No mention if it has a touch screen. Not very impressed.
Hi EileenL
I would like to tell you that Genos is quite a bit more bulky..
I know this well.
All Ketron Arrangers from SD7 until today (several years ago that is) have touch screen.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on October 03, 2022, 03:24:19 PM
Lee- I don’t know if things have moved forward with Ketron, but when I was interested in one some years back, all they had was a very loose arrangement of part time local representatives working from home. Not employees. The guy they had in Houston was pretty useless, not knowledgeable and couldn’t even play worth a darn.
They have AJ who seems to be Mr North America for Ketron, whom I met at Don Mason’s get together in Shreveport. AJ is a nice guy, based I think somewhere in the north east, and he is pretty expert, and a fair player. But I wasn’t sure if even he was a Ketron employee or just a gig player who represented them as a sideline. Mind you he did talk as if he had some input into Ketron design/development.
I think if you are interested in a Ketron, you would have to contact AJ, and find out if they have anyone in your area. But even if they do, when he would have a keyboard  to bring to your home to try (apparently that’s how they work) is anyone’s guess. I think it’s likely that Sokratis is one of these local representatives, so he has an inside track.
Basically, although the Ketron Audya seemed a great keyboard in many regards, their distribution and support network appeared pretty primitive. Reminded me of selling Tupperware. So good luck if you want to pursue it.
Mike
Hi Mike.
I have been working exclusively for the Event for a year.
I had never worked on any other Ketron model before it came on the market.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on October 03, 2022, 05:16:03 PM
Sokratis -  You are in Greece I believe, so I am guessing you work from your home, maybe as a contractor on testing/product evaluation and feedback.
Can you tell us what the North America sales distribution looks like for Ketron? Don’t think that information would cut across your NDA.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on October 03, 2022, 05:25:48 PM
Sokratis -  You are in Greece I believe, so I am guessing you work from your home, maybe as a contractor on testing/product evaluation and feedback.
Can you tell us what the North America sales distribution looks like for Ketron? Don’t think that information would cut across your NDA.
Mike
Yes dear Mike. I live and work in Greece (Crete) and I am Greek. For Ketron, yes, I work from my home. Now with the internet everything is possible. Unfortunately I cannot answer your question because I am not competent in this matter. Perhaps it would be good to send an email to Ketron Italy.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: usaraiya on October 03, 2022, 07:26:50 PM
Mike,

AJ is the man in the US! Even if you order from retailers, they have to get it through AJ, in fact he will drop ship it to you even if ordered elsewhere.
I emailed him and he promptly replied that he will inform those interested when more info is released, and yes, they have a strict NDA that everyone is adhering to.
So, get on his email list and you will get the info. I believe, he's the man for US customer service, too, so he is Ketron America! Just FYI.

 :)
Uday
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on October 03, 2022, 07:35:49 PM
I am aware that AJ has a company called AJAM, that essentially operates as Ketron North America. But no retailers appear to carry the product. I don’t have sufficient interest to contact Ketron further, but I think others on this forum discussing this product should be aware how very limited Ketron presence is here, and maybe in other countries like the UK.

Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 03, 2022, 09:19:27 PM
Hey Lee :
As mentioned by Sokratis, he has signed an NDA with his employer, Ketron Italy. Am I right, Sokratis ?
It is obvious he cannot answer ( our ) questions ( for the time being ), I guess.
Best regards, JH
Understandable. Thanks guys.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 03, 2022, 09:24:14 PM
Lee- I don’t know if things have moved forward with Ketron, but when I was interested in one some years back, all they had was a very loose arrangement of part time local representatives working from home. Not employees. The guy they had in Houston was pretty useless, not knowledgeable and couldn’t even play worth a darn.
They have AJ who seems to be Mr North America for Ketron, whom I met at Don Mason’s get together in Shreveport. AJ is a nice guy, based I think somewhere in the north east, and he is pretty expert, and a fair player. But I wasn’t sure if even he was a Ketron employee or just a gig player who represented them as a sideline. Mind you he did talk as if he had some input into Ketron design/development.
I think if you are interested in a Ketron, you would have to contact AJ, and find out if they have anyone in your area. But even if they do, when he would have a keyboard  to bring to your home to try (apparently that’s how they work) is anyone’s guess. I think it’s likely that Sokratis is one of these local representatives, so he has an inside track.
Basically, although the Ketron Audya seemed a great keyboard in many regards, their distribution and support network appeared pretty primitive. Reminded me of selling Tupperware. So good luck if you want to pursue it.
Mike
Okay, thanks Mike. I think the European market is of the greatest interest to most arranger makers, including Yamaha. In Canada, we're always last to receive new stock items. Kind of makes us feel like bottom feeders 🐟.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Christophermoment on October 03, 2022, 09:33:50 PM
Understandable. Thanks guys.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JOE AMOEDO'S MUSIC, Niagara Falls Canada (905-371-3109)

PINO LORUSSO Terrebonne, Quebec, Canada (Tel:- 438-580-7182 - PinoLorusso@Hotmail.com)

Lee, these might have more info.

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: DrakeM on October 03, 2022, 09:46:27 PM
Can we please MOVE this thread to the KETRON part of our forum?

Thank you,
Drake
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 03, 2022, 10:01:47 PM
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JOE AMOEDO'S MUSIC, Niagara Falls Canada (905-371-3109)

PINO LORUSSO Terrebonne, Quebec, Canada (Tel:- 438-580-7182 - PinoLorusso@Hotmail.com)

Lee, these might have more info.
Thanks, Christopher 😉.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Gunnar Jonny on October 03, 2022, 10:17:22 PM
Can we please MOVE this thread to the KETRON part of our forum?

Thank you,
Drake

I cannot see that it would do any harm if we had a "Chat about other brands Arranger" part.  :D 8)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on October 03, 2022, 11:23:07 PM
We already considered that and decided it just doesn’t happen enough to justify a separate section. There is always a flurry when a new product arrives, then it dies off naturally.
And what difference does it make anyway. You don’t have to read it if you don’t want to. The forum is arranged in sections for tidiness and ease of post searching. But most people looking frequently probably browse recent posts rather than sections anyway .I know that’s what I do.
There is another important reason for not having a separate section for other brands, or multiple sections for other brands. We have always been very tolerant of posts that are not strictly Yamaha arranger related. They  can be general chit, chat, information about other brands .. whatever ..as long as it’s respectful. But there is difference between that and inviting posts on other brands. That in my view is a step too far and could turn this forum into something different. Nothing is ever perfect, or suits everyone, but I think we largely get the balance about right.

BTW I am sure Drake knows there is no Ketron section. He is just being mischievous.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on October 04, 2022, 01:14:41 AM
This.

A 128 kilobit per second constant bit rate MP3 may be discernible from a wav audio file if you do a direct A/B comparison. But 192 and 256 kbps MP3s are almost impossible to distinguish from the original wav. And 320 kbps sounds exactly as the wav, even if you have golden ears.


Maarten
Hi Marten
I am 71 and can tell the difference.
Mp3 at 320 Kbps is ok for most people
Flac files are much better quality than Mp3

To me songs that are simple without a lot going on like early 60s  there is not a lot of difference , but as you get through the 70s and 80's there is a lot more detail in the songs and Mp3's squash certain things to bring the best out of an Mp3.
So some of the detail can be missing.
You want to have a listen to Hi Definition files  and with a good VPN you get can loads from certain sites free. Nudge , nudge!! 8)
I have a sony and an older Ipod Classic , but i only use wave files as they sound great on my  Marantz Hi -fi
Most of all . I am back also to vinyl in a big way as you cannot beat that analogue sound of warmth especially Emerson, Lake and Palmer --Tarkus 8)


All the Best
John
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 04, 2022, 01:24:51 AM
Agreed, Gunnar. There's not much happening in terms of Genos queries at the moment. With all the talk of a new Genos and two other companies making some waves with their new releases, the current discussion is quite healthy.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on October 04, 2022, 07:38:43 AM
After a long time of silence, competition information might now be something that keeps this business alive and exciting for many of us.

Nowadays most of us do own a Yamaha arranger keyboard and are happy with their instrument.
There is no direct/urgent need to upgrade nor to go for another brand but ... many of us like - in the first place -  to know, to hear, to see and to compare what is going on in " Keyboard Land ", IMHO.

I would like to call it : Natural Arranger Keyboard Instinct.  :)

However, I wonder if the sales of these ( expensive ? ) new arrangers will be successful in a time period where nothing is stable and prices of basic needs are increasing daily, all over the world ?

I have my doubts.

For home players ( more than 80% of this Forum ? ) there is no rush to step up, I guess.
Most of us will think twice before spending such an amount of money, IMO.  ::)

Best regards, JH
 



Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: maartenb on October 04, 2022, 11:23:57 AM
Most of us will think twice before spending such an amount of money, IMO.  ::)

I wouldn't be so sure about that, Jeff. If a new keyboard is important to someone, they'll find ways to have it.

Every month I put €60 in my Keyboard savings account. After three years, there is €2,160 in that account. Combined with the sale of my present keyboard (whether it was a Tyros 4, 5 or Genos) I have enough to buy the next Yamaha keyboard.

So if a Genos 2 offers important improvements (whenever it comes I don't care; I'm still thrilled with my Genos), I'd buy it in a heartbeat.


Maarten
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on October 04, 2022, 12:07:42 PM
Yes I agree,
  If someone really want's a new model, they will find the means to buy it. After all there are no pockets in shrouds.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on October 04, 2022, 02:01:51 PM
What Eileen says is true at individual level. But at a macro economics level there is no doubt that high inflation and a recession would heavily affect sales of non-essential items. Providers of these type of goods - and home keyboards are certainly in this category - must be concerned.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: usaraiya on October 04, 2022, 02:43:48 PM
I agree with Eileen at an individual level!

I want to upgrade when the time comes. All three companies have great products with features that stand out, but what makes one come to the top, IMO, is the excellent customer service/support and supporting software, and no one does that better than Yamaha.

So, I am looking forward to getting the Genos 2, which, if Yamaha follows the Genos release, will show us teasers about three months before the official release.

 :)

Uday
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on October 04, 2022, 03:15:53 PM
Agree with mikf -and even more, when we speak about TOTL keyboards. These things are meant for professionals (also price wise) and pro's don't really change equipment that often as we would think. And when they do upgrade, they try to stick with the brand they already use -simply because it makes continuing more comfortable. And so, there really must be something exceptional "on the other side of fence", to make brand switch to happen.
As for enthusiastic home/hobby keyboard musicians (willing to spend some cash)... For many here, it's probably the first time they even heard about Ketron. I think, we tend to make a "safe" (future proof) decision: we buy what's proven not to be wrong. And here Yamaha and Korg are well positioned, I think. Especially Yamaha, because here we can also find good entry level keyboards. And as we know, once you start with certain brand, you usually stick with it. Ketron however, has no such offer... and so we come to my first paragraph.

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on October 04, 2022, 03:41:36 PM
Hi Guys :

The street prices of the newest high end 76k arranger keyboards ( Ketron, Korg and Yamaha ) will be approx. between Euro / US$ 4,500 -- and 5,000 each, I guess.

I wonder how many people ( present keyboard owners ) will upgrade in 2023 ?
Between 10 - 15% or ( much ) more ? 8)

Best regards, JH

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: soundphase on October 04, 2022, 03:56:48 PM
I wouldn't be so sure about that, Jeff. If a new keyboard is important to someone, they'll find ways to have it.

Every month I put €60 in my Keyboard savings account. After three years, there is €2,160 in that account. Combined with the sale of my present keyboard (whether it was a Tyros 4, 5 or Genos) I have enough to buy the next Yamaha keyboard.

So if a Genos 2 offers important improvements (whenever it comes I don't care; I'm still thrilled with my Genos), I'd buy it in a heartbeat.


Maarten

+1 at 100%.
It's a matter of personal budget and priorities.
I have never been disappointed by my Yamaha purchases for 40 years. Even if I always expect more ....

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 04, 2022, 10:29:00 PM
After hearing the PA5X and Event, for me to put out that kind of money to upgrade my Genos, Yamaha would need to be leaps and bounds above these two competitors. While I know they're capable, the Genos 2 cannot be a simple "refresh" of the Genos 1 the way Tyros 4 was to Tyros 5 and earlier. That idea will not cut it in this new world of arrangers 😬. The technological demand alone is for a HUGE upgrade.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on October 04, 2022, 11:24:07 PM
I have seen lot of keyboardists that bought a new keyboard (me too :) sometimes) Not of a better quality that justify the amount of money, They also became not better musIcians or learned more skills. Just a matter of want having a new tool with the latest digital technique and it has to  be the top model. Nothing wrong with that. One can see it in cars, phones, tv etc. One have mostly good resons (to  convince themselves) to justify the deal or are simply honest. ;)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on October 05, 2022, 06:46:45 AM
After hearing the PA5X and Event, for me to put out that kind of money to upgrade my Genos, Yamaha would need to be leaps and bounds above these two competitors. While I know they're capable, the Genos 2 cannot be a simple "refresh" of the Genos 1 the way Tyros 4 was to Tyros 5 and earlier. That idea will not cut it in this new world of arrangers 😬. The technological demand alone is for a HUGE upgrade.

I think you are right, Lee.

Now it will be an old-fashioned competition battle. ;)
... WHO WILL BE THE WINNER IN 2023 ?

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on October 05, 2022, 11:56:27 AM
YAMAHA as always.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 05, 2022, 12:09:11 PM
Good points, Jeff and Eileen. I agree with Eileen. Yamaha will be last to this party but they'll bring the best house warming gift 🎹! A few weeks after Genos 2 hits the market, the other two will be saying, "Why didn't we think of that??"
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on October 05, 2022, 06:45:44 PM
Good points, Jeff and Eileen. I agree with Eileen. Yamaha will be last to this party but they'll bring the best house warming gift 🎹! A few weeks after Genos 2 hits the market, the other two will be saying, "Why didn't we think of that??"
Then I hope for a Genos with a 61,5 keys ... nobody has that yet  ;D ;D
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on October 05, 2022, 11:24:05 PM
I think Yamaha will only produce a 76 note Flagship as they have proved so popular.
 The S Series will be the ones with 61 note.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on October 06, 2022, 12:10:50 AM
I respect you, but in this case i believe my dealer: 61,76 and 88. Things can change...  ::)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on October 06, 2022, 05:50:41 AM
Only time will tell if you are right, Ton. :)

But ... why should Yamaha produce an 88k Genos2 version ?
They have their CVP's family ( only 88k ), right ?

Best wishes, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on October 06, 2022, 07:22:39 AM
The reasoning is actually very simple: because the customer demands it and to compete with other brands. The former certainties no longer apply in these turbulent times. So in order to survive, every company has to forge a new path if it is to ensure its survival.
If I'm wrong I'll admit it frankly, but for now I'll keep it to my inside information: Genos in 3 models.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on October 06, 2022, 08:02:00 AM

I understand your argument, Ton but ... keep in mind that each Yamaha dealer ( all over the world )  has signed an NDA ( = Non Disclosure Agreement ).
That means each Yamaha dealer is absolutely not allowed to give any new product information before these products are officially announced and/or launched by Yamaha.

I have the impression your dealer probably wanted to inform you KORG will launch a PA5X in 3 key versions : 61, 76 and 88 ... or am I completely wrong ?

Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Shubid on October 06, 2022, 08:21:15 AM
I have the impression your dealer probably wanted to inform you KORG will launch a PA5X in 3 key versions : 61, 76 and 88 ... or am I completely wrong ?
That's what I thought, and bear in mind that nobody has talked about a 61/76/88-Genos, before the PA5X was released.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on October 06, 2022, 11:49:05 AM
Well, I for one have not seen lots of people wanting 61 note Genos. If anything, most want a 76 note one. That is why it has sold so well.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 06, 2022, 01:29:00 PM
Agreed, Eileen. The 76 key version is the "sweet spot" for most players, especially gigging musicians. It's light to carry, has all the bells and whistles, has a decent key bed, and is big enough to assign three zones for us players who need piano, strings, and brass in one registration (for example).

I can see an 88 key version for the die hard piano players but the very nature of the Genos' functions and voices negates the need for an 88 weighted keybed. Like someone said, there's the CVP series for that purpose.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on October 06, 2022, 02:29:13 PM
Ton
Doesn’t help survival to produce a version that is not economically viable. Yamaha had real sales numbers from Tyros to show this was the case with their 61 vs 76 versions. That’s why they dropped it.
Yes, there are some customers who would really like a 61 note version, but there just didn’t prove to be enough of them on Tyros to be worth the additional cost of designing, marketing, manufacturing and supporting a separate model. And customers had a good 61 note alternative anyway from Yamaha with much lower cost SX models. Smaller and cheaper, - that proved popular. But smaller and almost same price did not.
 I don’t think anything changes just because Korg did it. May be it works for Korg because  they have no SX equivalent. Or maybe Korg are just making a mistake and will regret it. I just don’t see Yamaha doing it.
Mike

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: maartenb on October 06, 2022, 03:02:02 PM
May be it works for Korg because  they have no SX equivalent.

Korg have the PA-hundreds series, like PA600, PA700, PA1000.


Maarten
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on October 06, 2022, 03:09:04 PM
I understand your argument, Ton but ... keep in mind that each Yamaha dealer ( all over the world )  has signed an NDA ( = Non Disclosure Agreement ).
That means each Yamaha dealer is absolutely not allowed to give any new product information before these products are officially announced and/or launched by Yamaha.

I have the impression your dealer probably wanted to inform you KORG will launch a PA5X in 3 key versions : 61, 76 and 88 ... or am I completely wrong ?

Best regards, JH
Yes, you are completely wrong  ;)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on October 06, 2022, 03:23:05 PM
Hey Ton :

I would be grateful to let me know why I am completely wrong. :)

What makes you think why Yamaha will manufacture 3 Genos2 versions : 61, 76 and 88 keys ?

It looks like you are 100% convinced these 3 Genos2 versions will be available, right ?

I am looking forward to reading your reaction.
Thank you for your reply !

Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on October 06, 2022, 04:25:45 PM
I'm not tied to any NDA, but I do want to protect my resource so he doesn't get in trouble. And I just trust him. This answer doesn't improve credibility, so everyone is most right if they think differently. In any case, I am postponing the purchase of the PA5x-61, pending the new Genossen which will appear within 1 year. Then I have plenty of choice ( I prefer the 61 Genos?). The pre-announcement could go a little faster than we think ;-)).
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on October 06, 2022, 09:50:37 PM
Korg have the PA-hundreds series, like PA600, PA700, PA1000.
Maarten
Yes, but these models are previous generation and quite a bit of a downgrade compared to the new and very impressive PAX5. Whereas the SX900 was not all that far behind the Genos in overall performance at the time of its introduction. Yes there were some feature differences, but it was pretty close to being a Genos 'mini with 61 keys and a significant price difference. 
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on October 06, 2022, 10:19:06 PM
Cannot understand people wanting a 61 note Keyboard when you can have a 76 note keyboard.
With a 76 note keyboard you have a better range and also handy for keyboard splits. 8)

Genos 2 --No smoke without a fire ;D
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on October 06, 2022, 10:45:29 PM
Cannot understand people wanting a 61 note Keyboard when you can have a 76 note keyboard.
Neither can I and Tyros sales demonstrated that most people think this way. Some people claim that size makes a difference, but the size difference is so little that it's hard to imagine how that could matter to more than a very few.
I think that most who claim that a 61 note is important really want a much lower price version, but it would not be much lower in price. 
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on October 06, 2022, 11:47:41 PM
It is a matter of having a choice, each for his/her own. How many sizes are there for a smartphone, a laptop, a tv, a computer monitor, a car, a tablet etc. etc.?? All those products can do the basic wherefore it is made. So why would it be different for a keyboard? It doesnot always have to be a financial dimension, it could be a practical choice. Luckily one can decide for themselves what makes you happy   ;)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 07, 2022, 01:09:08 AM
Quote
It is a matter of having a choice, each for his/her own. How many sizes are there for a smartphone, a laptop, a tv, a computer monitor, a car, a tablet etc. etc.?? All those products can do the basic wherefore it is made.
A valid point but you're comparing apples to oranges. When it comes to keyboards it boils down to how many octaves you need. The extra octave provided with the 76 key version requires very little space and yet offers so much more. Trust me - I would have to drastically alter the sounds I provide to the various bands I play in if I only had the 61 key version! In fact, it would be quite impossible to do some of the things I do now.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on October 07, 2022, 01:17:27 AM
For the manufacturer, it’s always the financial consideration that rules.  It would be poor management for it not to.
If you have several variations of a cell phone or other high volume consumer products then you can easily absorb the additional cost of having multiple variants because of the large additional sales volume they might generate.
But arrangers are not sold in those quantities. And the Tyros history obviously convinced Yamaha they couldn’t recover those additional costs  from the small number of 61 key Genos likely to be sold. Its seems a sound business decision. 
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on October 07, 2022, 05:16:32 AM
I appreciate your reactions, but what I meant is simply; I decide what I need and you decide what you need  :) . I never ever had problems with a 61 kb, allthought I have had the Genos and the Tyros 5-76. So why would there a reson for me to buy a 76 note kb ? Only because the fact that the manufacterer decides for me what is good for me by giving me no choice? O no! I'm
only interested in a 61 notes kb even if the consequence is a little less quality or less functionalyties. But the nowadays quality is quite good of some branches. Besides: lesser keys means lesser mistakes...  to play my favourite I need only 1 key: 'One note Samba' 😁😁
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on October 07, 2022, 05:23:18 AM
Up to now we know the Ketron Event will be available
in 76 keys only.
The Korg PA5X in 3 note versions 61, 76 and 88.

All of us - except Ton37 - believe the Yamaha Genos2 will be available in 76k only.

Apparently Ton37 has been convinced by his dealer the Genos2 will come in 3 note versions: 61, 76 and 88.

Time will tell who is right. ;D

JH



Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on October 07, 2022, 05:39:52 AM
Now you are right, Jeff ;)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on October 07, 2022, 01:31:09 PM
I doubt that any dealers anywhere know a thing about a new Genos. Yamaha are very strict on who knows what and only essential staff will know anything and will risk losing their jobs if things are released before time. Dealers are the last to know anything about new launches.
  My Money is on 76 note only.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on October 07, 2022, 01:57:20 PM
Eileen - here’s a couple of questions for you. If they were to release a new Genos early next year would you definitely buy one.  And if they released a 76 key and 88 key version with only a small price difference, which would you choose?
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on October 07, 2022, 03:20:13 PM
The present consumer Korg PA5X Dutch street prices :

61 note = Euro 4200,--.
76 note = Euro 4500,--.
88 note = Euro 4999,--.

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on October 07, 2022, 11:54:59 PM
Hello Mike,
  Yes I would buy a new Genos and as I am not a pianist would still choose a 76 note one.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: tyrosman on October 08, 2022, 06:17:29 PM
Genos is due for Discontinued
Total Rubbish >:(
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: tyrosman on October 08, 2022, 06:20:24 PM
I must admit a fantastic guitar sound on demo
I think that a new Genos will be out shortly 8)
  i dont think so ;)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: tyrosman on October 08, 2022, 06:30:43 PM
Must admit I am not keen on the look of it as it seems quite bulky to me. No mention if it has a touch screen. Not very impressed.
Same here Eileen ill stick with what we kno ;)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: tyrosman on October 08, 2022, 06:32:16 PM
Yes I agree,
  If someone really want's a new model, they will find the means to buy it. After all there are no pockets in shrouds.
Very true
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Amwilburn on October 08, 2022, 06:35:04 PM
I doubt that any dealers anywhere know a thing about a new Genos. Yamaha are very strict on who knows what and only essential staff will know anything and will risk losing their jobs if things are released before time. Dealers are the last to know anything about new launches.

Can confirm. I rarely find out more much before launch date (at most a month), but usually a matter of days or a week.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on October 11, 2022, 02:06:09 PM
The more I listen to the Ketron Event the more I like it. Here is a new live demonstration of the KETRON EVENT - Sexy Ambient Sax played live. Short, but sweet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5pD_dmm1t0

Best,
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on October 11, 2022, 02:19:28 PM
Am I interpreting what I hear correctly - the sax is free playing riff fills by itself following the chord played? If so that is an amazing feature.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on October 11, 2022, 02:24:35 PM
Looks to me like the sax part has been pre recorded so that you can play along with it. You can do this on most keyboards. Also the saxes on Genos are every bit as good if not better.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: genosmusic on October 11, 2022, 02:36:06 PM
Looks to me like the sax part has been pre recorded so that you can play along with it. You can do this on most keyboards. Also the saxes on Genos are every bit as good if not better.

well they cant be better, because genos does not have
LIVE-SAX-recordings.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on October 11, 2022, 03:15:49 PM
Of course they do. Most samples used in keyboards are sampled live from the actual instruments to give them their authenticity.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: genosmusic on October 11, 2022, 03:21:02 PM
Of course they do. Most samples used in keyboards are sampled live from the actual instruments to give them their authenticity.

Nah... A machine could never compete with a Real-Live Saxaphone player
perhaps you havn't heard any live ?
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Duffy on October 11, 2022, 04:39:14 PM
Nah... A machine could never compete with a Real-Live Saxaphone player
perhaps you havn't heard any live ?
Very true. You can praise any keyboard as much as you like but, it's fantasy to think a keyboard can match a real sax player.
You can go on YouTube and listen to sax players and think, "whatever possessed Yamaha to sample that one"
I had a good friend who played Sax & Clarinet. He wouldn't claim to be the best in the world BUT, no keyboard could match his sound.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: usaraiya on October 11, 2022, 04:55:21 PM
So, do you know whether the SAX part is recorded or is it jamming live following the chords?
If it is live, that is an incredible feature!

 :)
Uday
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: genosmusic on October 11, 2022, 05:27:01 PM
Very true. You can praise any keyboard as much as you like but, it's fantasy to think a keyboard can match a real sax player.
You can go on YouTube and listen to sax players and think, "whatever possessed Yamaha to sample that one"
I had a good friend who played Sax & Clarinet. He wouldn't claim to be the best in the world BUT, no keyboard could match his sound.

midi-SAMPLES are not the same as live-recordings from Players,
tyros5 had live audio recorded styles,
but they never thought to include Live-Sax-Recordings
this makes ketrons Feature totally unique

i wish i could demo one but its not possible at present.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: pjd on October 11, 2022, 06:20:16 PM
So, do you know whether the SAX part is recorded or is it jamming live following the chords?
If it is live, that is an incredible feature!

 :)
Uday

Hello Uday --

I suspect that the saxophone licks are pre-recorded, i.e., not jamming. One could create a similar effect on Genos (or SX) using audio multi-pads. Each audio file would be a sax lick from whatever source: the recording of a friend playing sax, a lick from a sample library, etc.

The difference -- Ketron has incorporated such pre-recorded licks into their styles. The current chord guides selection of the audio file to be played and real-time transposition (if necessary). Yamaha multi-pads do not follow chord changes.

I noticed that the Ketron Event front panel mixer has Drum, Bass, Chord and Real Channel sliders to mix audio style elements. The Real Channel most likely controls the licks. There appears to be a trademarked feature, "Real Solos," which may be related.

Yamaha actually has a pile of patents on audio style generation:

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-patents-summary-2017/

I wonder if they got shy about rolling out this technology in a product after hearing such shrieks and howls about their original (and current) implementation of audio styles.

Hope this helps -- pj


Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: genosmusic on October 11, 2022, 06:41:50 PM
Luv the audio-styles from the tyros5, soooooooooo real, cause they Are.

you can also record both the styles, and the audio-drums together
using the audio-recorder, armed to Record-play/pause,then,
Hit Start-Stop, next to Sync-start
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: usaraiya on October 11, 2022, 07:55:39 PM
Hi PJ,

Thanks for the explanation! The Ketron playing audio files according to the chords, with tranpositions if needed, "real solos" sounds good and the "AI" technology perfected by Ketron is impressive.
Waiting for the final release of all the specs to determine what other goodies are there in the Pandora's Box!

 :)
Uday
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 11, 2022, 08:32:20 PM
The more I listen to the Ketron Event the more I like it. Here is a new live demonstration of the KETRON EVENT - Sexy Ambient Sax played live. Short, but sweet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5pD_dmm1t0
Best,
Mike
Impressive! Like I said earlier, Yamaha has lots of work to do, unless they already have something in the wings that will blow the Event out of the water. It wouldn't surprise me in the least.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: genosmusic on October 11, 2022, 08:54:06 PM
Impressive! Like I said earlier, Yamaha has lots of work to do, unless
they already have something in the wings that will blow the Event out of the water.
It wouldn't surprise me in the least.

It would surprise me
What more can be done that hasnt been done already.
In a way , Arrangers have reached the end of the road.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on October 11, 2022, 09:53:58 PM
I agree that the technology is on the plateau phase but what Ketron has done with those live riffs embedded in the style sand triggered by the chords is definitely new, so there is always something more. And there are things implemented on some models but not on others , like the visual piano room on the CVPs/. And then there are some things that are just not yet right on the current models - like smooth voice transitioning, final mixing on recording, that should be addressed.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: genosmusic on October 11, 2022, 10:33:33 PM
I agree that the technology is on the plateau phase but
what Ketron has done with those live riffs
embedded in the style sand triggered by the chords is definitely new, so there is always something more. And there are things implemented on some models but not on others , like the visual piano room on the CVPs/. And then there are some things that are just not yet right on the current models - like smooth voice transitioning, final mixing on recording, that should be addressed.
Mike

Im only guessing here, but i would presume,
that if ketron can Auto, live-sax-audio-licks, to styles, then
they can obviously do it for Other voices too like,
Flugelhorn, Country Guitars, Pianos, Jazz Flutes ?

But is it the concept thats definitely new , or is it the Technique thats New ?
Audio styles are not something new

Regarding the pa5X, there is zero cutoff
you can play the piano and transiton into orchestral strings, in a very smooth natural way,
same goes  for styles, god knows how they do this.
and any other brand that would bring this out later on , would have left it a bit late.
--------------------------

Reasons for my pre ordering the 5x, are primarily because its offers 2 features
that no other arranger in the world has

1: sampling
2: sidechaining

those 2 features alone will transform any production recording into a pro sounding track.
example :

"id love to have that rhodes electric keyboard sound that my friend has,
and his new grand piano sound too, and his sax that he plays live"


you can with a sampler, so skys the limit.

the sidechaining brings a modern pumping sound to r&b music
that cant be replicated in any other way, and was only available on high end
synths like the Yamaha Motif.

so yes , technology is on the plateau phase.

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 11, 2022, 11:28:02 PM
Quote
I agree that the technology is on the plateau phase but what Ketron has done with those live riffs embedded in the style sand triggered by the chords is definitely new...
Incorrect. Band In a Box has been doing this with their MIDI and now Audio styles for almost 30 years. Ketron has simply integrated that idea into their latest arrangers.

Quote
What more can be done that hasnt been done already.
In a way , Arrangers have reached the end of the road.
Again, untrue. There is still a ton of room to improve voices and styles. The next big addition (hopefully) will be FAR better editing capabilities for styles, rather than, the primitive "teaser" editor that the Genos uses now. In a perfect world, they'd have it so we could edit on our computers, audition the newly edited style, and then save it to the Genos User drive. There are a boatload of people here who are equally qualified to create their own custom styles. All they need is a less clunky way to do it.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on October 11, 2022, 11:45:33 PM
Lee - I don’t hear this feature like as a customized style with nice audio loops. On a style the riffs repeat at the programmed intervals.  It appears to me that what is happening here is different because the sax riffs on the Ketron are much more random than that. Seems like some sort sort of smart algorithm that calls up very different phrases like a real sax player would as the chord sequence is played.  It almost seemed like there were no repeats. Not something I have heard from an arranger before.
I am not familiar with Band in a Box.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: pjd on October 12, 2022, 12:22:45 AM
Until someone can play the actual instrument and report back to us, it's difficult to say what Ketron is actually doing with those sax riffs, i.e., selecting it, transposing/modifying it if necessary and so forth. And maybe figuring out how they do it.

In the meantime, I just assume, like all demos, that the example is cherry picked. Hip-hop artists bash jazzy riffs onto progressions all the time, albeit using musical ears to guide them. It would be interesting to know how many phrases one can cycle through before a repeat. The EVENT has a rather large storage drive, so it should be possible to store a big phrase library.

I will say that the end result sounds very nice.

Best to all -- pj
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 12, 2022, 02:56:23 AM
Hi Mike,

Band in a Box is a standalone software package that runs on a PC or Mac. It triggers a MIDI keyboard or uses its own internal audio sounds. Users enter the chords into the program in a standard chart form, and then press the Start button. A full background track is generated. The backgrounds were simple in the earlier days but have become very sophisticated over the years, much like what the Event does now. It has a "round robin feature," which means it varies the generated background tracks at random like the sax voice you heard on the Event demo. I used it on my first Christmas album in 1996. It was stellar back then and is even more evolved today.

The Genos is similar but far less sophisticated (boring actually, in comparison). Genos 2 will likely take this concept to a whole new level. After hearing the Event, I'm counting on it.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: genosmusic on October 12, 2022, 07:34:49 AM
Lee - I don’t hear this feature like as a customized style with nice audio loops. On a style the riffs repeat at the programmed intervals.  It appears to me that what is happening here is different because the sax riffs on the Ketron are much more random than that.

 Seems like some sort sort of smart algorithm that calls up very different phrases like a real sax player would as the chord sequence is played.  It almost seemed like there were no repeats. Not something I have heard from an arranger before.
I am not familiar with Band in a Box.
Mike

Yes i think your right.

(https://i.imgur.com/MbIZHx0.jpg)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on October 12, 2022, 10:46:54 AM
The Ketron Event's manual is not available yet.  Early 2023 and delivery in June 2023 ?

Very recently Yamaha launched a VH Genos' update ( V 2.13  ).
Perhaps no Genos2 upgrade soon ?

Best regards, JH



Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 12, 2022, 12:00:26 PM
Jeff, it looks like some small bug fixes. I think Genos 2 is still on the way. If they added a bunch of new features, I'd be concerned.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on October 12, 2022, 12:27:48 PM
Hey Lee :

Do you think we might expect a small upgrade like a Genos+ instead of a "real " upgrade ?

Would that be the right decision now competition is offering attractive arranger keyboards for 2023 ? ::)

I hope Yamaha will launch a Genos2 that will beat all competitors.  ;D

Best wishes, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 12, 2022, 01:46:23 PM
Not sure Jeff. I would think a "midline refresh" would still require a boatload of financial resources from Yamaha and not generate a whole lot of revenue. On the other hand, it can be argued that many of the Tyros successors were mere improvements of the original jump from the PSR design to Tyros itself. Perhaps Yamaha will do the same with Genos?

Trying to figure out what Yamaha will do next is like trying to figure out what that lunatic in Russia is up to. My gut tells me Yamaha will release a major upgrade to the Genos because of the two new players on the block.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on October 12, 2022, 03:29:12 PM
When that should happen, Lee ... maybe Yamaha will give it also a new brand name, who knows ?

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on October 12, 2022, 03:44:41 PM
Well I am sure all this talking about what may or may not happen because of two competitors is utterly useless. What will be will be. We will buy or we won't bye.
  Much sooner read about what people are doing now with their currant keyboards.
Much more interesting.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on October 12, 2022, 04:42:24 PM
Speculation has always been funny.  ;)
Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 12, 2022, 06:21:55 PM
You're spot on, Eileen. The main purpose of this forum and the reason for buying a Genos is to "make music." On the other hand, engaging in wide speculation as to what Yamaha has up its sleeve is further testament to Yamaha's ability to get people to ditch all the endless texting and back to playing music.

As each new Yamaha keyboard has emerged, I have become a better player. It's only in part because I practiced and acquired new skills. A lot of it was due to the improvements to the sounds and functions added by Yamaha over the years. It's like a cabinet maker who produces some pretty nice furniture by using simple hand tools. As time passes, give that same person a bunch of power planers, saws, sanders, shapers, routers, and other tools, and watch what he or she can build.

Advanced musical skills and superior music tools are not mutually exclusive. When you have great tools, you can become greater than you ever thought possible. I'm playing a lot of neat brass and organ parts now for my new band that I'm not really good enough to otherwise do. Between the Genos' great sounds and a lot of free YouTube help, I'm adding a dynamic to my current band they never thought possible. Wait until they hear Genos 2 😬!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on October 13, 2022, 06:29:57 AM
KETRON'S DEALERSHIP AND SERVICE AFTER SALES ?

I spoke to a few ( previous ) Audya5 owners and most of them confirmed as follows :
" Ketron dealers and service centres are not easy to find ".
 
I wonder what customers may expect when their Event will be on the market ?

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: genosmusic on October 13, 2022, 11:52:00 AM
Well I am sure all this talking about what may or may not happen is utterly useless. What will be will be. We will buy or we won't bye.
  Much sooner read about what people are doing now with their currant keyboards.
Much more interesting.

very insulting to negate someones view,
just because it doesnt match your way of thinking ?

People have VALID points they want to make, and trying to Shut them up
is quite disrespectfull.

im a member of several other forums including, rowland,korg,casio
they do not Disrespect others by telling them their comments are
utterly useless?

you have your own forum, ?  why not do it there ?
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on October 13, 2022, 01:32:39 PM
Sorry you feel this way Genos music,
  I come on this and any other forum to read about what people are achieving with their currant keyboards and what little gems they may have found. Things that I can try or pass on any tips for. This is what the PSR forum was all about.
  Now all people seem to do is knock the Yamaha keyboards they have and wonder what Korg and Ketron will have that is better. Whilst it is good to hear about what is out there in the way of new boards who wants to keep reading about What if's and May Be's and when. I am sure I am not the only one who feels this.
  As to my forum it is true to Yamaha and I do not get these sorts of posts. We all are there to help one another with these great keyboards and to share the music we play.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on October 13, 2022, 01:35:17 PM
Genosmusic - Lee tried to excuse you on the other thread but I repeat here what I said, you are are a nineteen year old being a smart ***. This is an 85 year old long time, well respected member you are addressing here.
We are very tolerant and respectful here, and I think maybe you don’t belong on this forum. I’m thinking about it.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: genosmusic on October 13, 2022, 02:00:48 PM
Genosmusic - Lee tried to excuse you on the other thread but I repeat here what I said, you are are a nineteen year old being a smart ***. This is an 85 year old long time, well respected member you are addressing here.
We are very tolerant and respectful here, and I think maybe you don’t belong on this forum. I’m thinking about it.
Mike

I excused you for not apologizing to me
for interpretating one of my comments incorrectly.

Lee Batchelor, had the intelligence to understand , and spoke up in my defence,
but your pride didnt allow you to do that.
--------------------

Now your allowing someones AGE to over ride insulting comments like :
UTTERLY USELESS
-----------------------------

Your right,  i dont belong here,

As a Moderator , your judgements are Flawed.

.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on October 13, 2022, 02:59:17 PM
I think your follow up posts show that I “interpretated” your comments correctly.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on October 13, 2022, 04:36:45 PM
My comment was made in general use and not aimed at anyone as an insult.
  Trying to guess what or will not be on anything is utterly useless. We must waite and see for ourselves what is on New Flagships and then Decide if it is what we want.
  Why waste time daydreaming. Much better things in life to do.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: usaraiya on October 13, 2022, 06:09:10 PM
My comment was made in general use and not aimed at anyone as an insult.
  Trying to guess what or will not be on anything is utterly useless. We must wait and see what is on New Flagships and decide if it is what we want.
  Why waste time daydreaming? Much better things in life to do.

Like making music on what we have currently and enjoying it!
 :)
Uday
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: vitalog2010 on October 13, 2022, 07:26:04 PM
Genos New Firmware Update V2.13 released.

https://usa.yamaha.com/support/updates/firm_genos.html (https://usa.yamaha.com/support/updates/firm_genos.html)

As we can see, they did not release major updates.

- Fixed a problem in which, with firmware version 2.00 or later, the pitch detection accuracy of Vocal Harmony decreases when the input volume from the MIC INPUT jack is low, and the original harmony sound could not subsequently be obtained.
- Fixed other problems.

Perhaps this is a reason to think that the yamaha corporation will release a new genos 2 soon?  ::)

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 13, 2022, 07:46:32 PM
I really wish they'd specify what "other problems" are 😖!!

At the moment, I have Yamaha Canada totally stumped as to why my Knob and Slider window displays are corrupted. Perhaps they figured it out and fixed it but how would I know? Yamaha Canada is communicating with me but at a painfully slow speed.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on October 14, 2022, 02:33:06 AM
My comment was made in general use and not aimed at anyone as an insult.
Eileen, Of course you did not insult anyone ,   - to say Bob is utterly useless would be an insult, to say speculating or daydreaming is utterly useless is just a harmless opinion. Everyone - or maybe I should say every reasonable person - knows this. We can’t legislate for unreasonable people, but what we can do is not invite them to our house - or forum!
Best wishes
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: pjd on October 14, 2022, 08:05:29 PM
I really wish they'd specify what "other problems" are 😖!!

Back in software engineering days, we had quarterly bug review sessions. [Dear Lord how I hated those. Glad to be retired.] Anyway, the bugs were ordered by priority and by level of effort, and assigned to an engineer.

If Yamaha is preparing a major new release, then they have probably fixed the lowest hanging, easy fruit. This allows a quick bug-fix release without taxing the main development effort. "Fixed other problems" is a euphemism for "Yeah, we fixed some small, minor stuff. Leave us alone."  ;)

At some point, Yamaha will see a business requirement to move on from the current product.

Oh, well -- pj
 
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 14, 2022, 09:35:50 PM
Thanks for that, PJ. And there folks, is the benefits of having forum members from all walks of life on board. The level of expertise never ceases to amaze me. I believe PJ also plays a Genos 🤣.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: RoyB on October 30, 2022, 11:34:48 AM
A Chinese poster has recently posted these spec details of the Event on SynthZone. Appears to be genuine, and those members on SynthZone who are close to Ketron development have not disputed it.

*********************************************************
Ketron EVENT :

Polyphony: 216 notes, multitimbral.

Keyboard: 76 half weighted keys. 4 Dynamic curves. Pitch and Modulation wheels. Aftertouch. Portamento.
Legato Mono_Poly. Transposer -/+ 24. Octave +/- 2. Expr. Pedal with 6 curves.
Controls: 15 sliders with RGB Led indicator. Brightness and color controls. 8 potentiometers for external EFX
control.

Display: 7” touch capacitive. Brightness control. 5 different skin colors.

Factory Sounds: 10 Voice groups: Piano, Strings, Organ, Brass, Sax, Pad, Synth, Guitar, Bass, Ethnic. 464 Preset
Voices. Voice 1, Voice 2, each Voice with up to 3 different sounds. Drawbars. Factory Advanced Voice Editing.
High quality multilayer Sounds with a vast selection of Real Solos ®. Factory overwrite and restore. Up to 1.280
User Voices available. Arabic scale and key shift programmable per Voice.

User Sounds: 2,5 GB free storage in non-volatile Flash memory (1,5 GB for additional Factory Sound Banks – 1
GB for User samples). Sample Editor: up to 8.192 samples (max 6 seconds per sample). Up to 4 layered stereo
instruments (Voice or Drum Set). Advanced editor with Split, Octave, Level, Range, Tune, Cut off, Velocity, Adsr.
Sample Loop utilities. User Drum kits.
Adsr/Filter: separate sound controls for Attack, Decay, Sustain, LFO, Cut Off and Resonance.

Drum Set: 62 Stereo Drums kits. 32 User Drum kits with Remap, Filter, Tune, FX controls. Drum Mixer: 9 sections
with separate controls for level, pan, reverb, pitch, velocity compression. 86 Midi Drum styles (Pattern)
available on Grv1_Loop section.

Drawbars: 9 digital drawbars. Slow-Fast Rotor. Overdrive, Click, Vibrato, Reverb, Percussion. Full
programmability. 24 Organ Presets. Twin Organ: possibility to mix PCM and Digital organ tones for a wide stereo
sound reproduction.

Arranger: Over 400 Styles. Real Styles, featuring a mix of Midi and audio parts (see below), Live Styles and Midi
Styles. 10 groups: Ballad, Pop, Dance, Rock, Swing, Latin, Country, Folk, Party, Unplugged. 3 Intro, 3 Ending, Fill
to End, ABCD, 4 Fills, 4 Break. Reintro, Count In, Pause, Key Start, Key Stop, Variation. User Styles with unlimited
store capabilities.
5 Midi Chords and Bass. Close, Parallel, Logic mode. 3 x Lower with Mono/Poly function. Chord Variation.
Varitone. Voice to ABCD. Auto Fill, Fill to Arrange, Fill to Aftertouch. Chord modes: Easy1, Easy2, Easy3, Fingered
1, Fingered 2. Orch. Variation Morphing. Rootless mode. Manual Bass, To Lowest, To Root. Bassist and Pianist
mode (Standard/Expert). Bass and Chord Lock.

Live Drums: 580 Live Drums with a complete Arranger structure (3 Intros, 3 Endings, ABCD, 4 Fills, 4 Breaks).
Reverb and 3 band Parametric Equalizer with 10 presets, programmable on each style. Drum Boost. Possibility
to load external User Live Drums. Drum Lock.

Grooves: 3 x independent Groove sections. Huge library of more than 780 Latin percussions, Electro and
Acoustic Drum loops, Single percussion hits. Groove to Variation. Separate volume and EFX controls.

Live Guitars: 216 sliced Guitar patterns including Long Chords. Separate volume and EFX controls.

Real Chord: More than 300 Real audio accompaniments covering a full chord range (up to 13 different chords).
A wide variety of electric, acoustic, and jazz guitars patterns and other orchestral sequences perfectly
synchronized to Midi. Dedicated Insert EFX with full editor, programmable for each style. Possibility to load
external User Real Chords.

Real Bass: 256 Real audio Basses synchronized to Midi. Twin Bass: possibility to switch Midi or Audio on the
same style. Support to external User audio Basses. 3 band Parametric Equalizer with 10 Presets, programmable
on each style. Possibility to load external User Real Basses.
Style Modeling: navigate and choose Drums, Grooves, Bass and Chords from the massive Midi and Audio
Library. Multichord and Multibass templates.

Style Edit: advanced pattern recording and editing. Copy, Quantize, Velocity, Octave functions. Special quantize
available for oriental styles (7/8, 9/8, 13/8, etc.).

Registrations: 4 Banks with unlimited Registrations controlling the global set up of the keyboard.

Performance: provides fast access to Styles, Registrations with Style, Mp3, Wav or Midi files. 7 Sets with
unlimited file storage.

Play Mode: Master, Accord/Style, Accord/Classic, Organist.

Phrase: real time recording and play for Style chord sequences.

Custom Slider: 2 x Custom slider (alternative to Lower 2 And 3) assignable to Micro, Arranger sections, Drum
filter and other functions.

Footswitch: 4 programmable Set. Assignable to the most relevant machine functions and features.
Arabic Scale: 16 sets. 6 scale memories.

Dsp: Reverb, Chorus, Phaser, Flanger, Overdrive, Distortion, Tremolo, Autopan, Equalizer. 2 stereo EFX Insert
assigned to Voice and Voice 2, 1 Insert to Arranger chords, 1 Insert to Real Chord. External panel controls:
Overdrive, Brilliance, Chorus/Wah Depth and Rate, Delay Feedback and Level, Reverb Time, and Level. 64 Single
Presets and 64 Chain Effects. Deep editing.

Stem: 4 Scenes. 5 audio tracks per scene to be played simultaneously. Lead track, Transpose, Time Stretching,
Loop, Solo, Mute, Autoplay. Fixed pitch for Drum section. Support for external User Stems.

Player: 2 separate Player units feat. Transpose, Audio Time stretching, GM, Jukebox, Playlists, Drum Remix,
Markers, Lyrics, Cross Fade, Search, PFL, Midi Mix, Karaoke Backgrounds. Support for wav, midi, mp3, mp4, avi,
mov, flv, cdg, jpg, png, txt and pdf files.

HD Recording: 1 stereo audio track. Midi and Song Style recording.

Audio Miltitrack: 5+1 audio tracks with separate slider control.

Micro: 2 x Micro inputs. Micro 1 (XLR) with gain control. Effect with Reverb, Delay, Equalizer, Pitch shift. Micro
2 (jack) with volume and reverb control.

Voicetron: 3 voice vocalizer. Assignable to Arranger or Midi file with Presets, Equalizer, Mode functions.

Video: HDMI connection for displaying lyrics, pictures, and videos. Mirror mode. Up to Full HD Resolution.
Support for external touchscreen displays.

Bluetooth: Streaming audio input (ad2p profile).

Wi_Fi: Networked remote control via KETRON app.

Storage: 240 GB internal SSD disk (80 GB reserved for System). Optional external SD Card (up to 512 GB ).

Side Connections: 2 x USB device. USB Host. HDMI.

Rear Connections: Main Out Left / Right. Aux 1 & Aux 2 (Left/Right). Headphone. Sustain pedal. Volume pedal.
Footswitch. Midi In1, Midi In2, Out, Thru. Line In L/R. Micro 1, Micro 2.

Optional: Volume pedal normal or deluxe. Sustain pedal normal or piano type (available also with Footswitch
connector). Footswitch 6 or 13 switches. Midi Pedalboard 13 notes (K8 ). Soft bag. Hard case.

Dimensions: 114 x 36,5 x 12,5 cm (44,8 x 14,3 x 5 in)

Weight: 14,8 Kg (32,6 lbs.)

************************************************************************

There's some interesting stuff in there. The Stems feature (also found on the Ketron Lounge module) will be of particularly interest for those players who use audio backing tracks in live performances.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Bill on October 30, 2022, 12:29:21 PM
 Support for wav, midi, mp3, mp4, avi,
mov, flv, cdg, jpg, png, txt and pdf files.

Video:  HDMI connection for displaying lyrics, pictures, and videos. Mirror mode. Up to Full HD Resolution.
Support for external touchscreen displays

Hi Roy

A compressive list.  Like the 2 highlighted above.

Bill
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on October 30, 2022, 01:58:21 PM
Hi Guys :
Very impressive but frightening at the same time. ;)
Best wishes, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Joe H on October 30, 2022, 03:59:09 PM
I excused you for not apologizing to me
for interpretating one of my comments incorrectly.

Lee Batchelor, had the intelligence to understand , and spoke up in my defence,
but your pride didnt allow you to do that.
--------------------

Now your allowing someones AGE to over ride insulting comments like :
UTTERLY USELESS
-----------------------------

Your right,  i dont belong here,

As a Moderator , your judgements are Flawed.

.

I think Mike is right... you don't belong here with your negative attitude and a lack of respect for others.

Joe H

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on October 30, 2022, 04:23:20 PM
Specs might be interesting but not really that helpful to the majority of arranger players.  What matters for most is -
how does it sound over the full range of voices and styles,
how easy is the overall operation,
how does it feel,
Does it do everything I need,
how does it look,
what does it cost,
how available is it,
what is the support like.
The first is probably great, but then it gets a bit more hum ho.
Ketron seemed a good little company, has the reputation of producing innovative and quite advanced products but with limited distribution, and often some flaws. But then they all have some flaws and shortcomings!
As I stated earlier in this thread I have actually seen and played the previous flagship Ketron, albeit briefly, and it was pretty impressive. Had some cutting edge features. My understanding is that it has a number of loyal users, especially in Europe, and mostly performing pros.
 I could envisage it being of some interest for example to someone like Lee, but doubt it will be a serious attraction to the vast majority of typical arranger players like those on on this forum, who will have little exposure to it, and who want the comfort of a market leading distribution and support network.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: RoyB on October 30, 2022, 05:03:01 PM
20 or so years ago I had a (made in Italy) GEM WK4 Arranger, which was great. However, GEM had the same drawback as Ketron - limited international distribution network and limited international dealerships. Although the arranger itself was terrific and I loved it (it was also built like a tank, and had the weight of one), I found that owning a GEM arranger was quite a lonely experience - lack of dealers meant help and support could be tricky; there was a GEM user group but it had a small membership and you had to pay for anything.

Ketron today I believe is somewhat better and there is an active user forum. However, it is a small company so you just have to accept that international distribution and dealerships (and the consequent help and support network) are somewhat limited in comparison to the likes of Yamaha, Korg and Roland.

Ketron also produce a number of sound modules, and have tended to produce module versions of a number of their arrangers. There has been no word yet as to whether we can expect to see a module version of the Event.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on October 30, 2022, 05:06:06 PM
In Europe Ketron's arranger keyboards have never been such a real commercial success compared to Yamaha and/or Korg arrangers due to poor distribution, weak service and high prices.
Regards, JH



Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on October 30, 2022, 09:11:57 PM
I think I'm quite sensitive to audio quality... But I challenge everyone above the age of 30, to recognize the difference between wav and hi quality mp3 just by listening. Saying that, the problem is not mp3 format itself. It's more about the quality of audio source before converting to mp3 and what compression settings are used.
Youtube is recommending to use high audio quality for uploading, but not every Youtube uploader knows how to do it properly.

Just my 2 cents,
Bogdan
My 1/2 cent
Mp3's are nowhere good as a wave file. Some of the nuances are compressed out of the song for320Kbps quality
Flac files are better than Mp3 they can be 800kbps plus.
Wav files are King. Better detail.

Better still Hi definition 24 bit music is fab!! :)  You can get loads with a VPN!!! :) :) :) Nudge , Nudge, wink Wink!! :P :P :P 8)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on October 30, 2022, 09:24:33 PM
Nah... A machine could never compete with a Real-Live Saxaphone player
perhaps you havn't heard any live ?

The Genos has great saxes and it is close as it gets to the real thing.
If you set the Genos sax up right it is really convincing especially if you can master the articulations.
The Tenor is really warm and the alto is pretty good.
I must admit though it can get a little sqeaky if you go too high and that is where a real sax excels over a Genos sample.
Genos saxes also have those nice breathy sound if that is what you want.
I can get those Baker Street saxes almost blob on with the right touches of reverb.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on October 30, 2022, 09:42:03 PM
...
Flac files are better than Mp3 they can be 800kbps plus.
Wav files are King.
...

Flac is lossless compressed Wav -no difference between these two.

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: musicman01 on October 31, 2022, 12:36:05 PM
What attention to a self-playing keyboard, is that what you want???
A good advice! buy some cd's and you will have almost the same!!!
My opinion is, you buy a keyboard to play yourself, and not let it play.
What are musicians still needed for?????
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on October 31, 2022, 02:14:10 PM
What attention to a self-playing keyboard, is that what you want???


Did not know it was a " self playing keyboard " !  ;D
Sorry, I do not know what you mean.
Plse advise. Thanks JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: soundphase on October 31, 2022, 05:27:20 PM
Did not know it was a " self playing keyboard " !  ;D
Sorry, I do not know what you mean.
Plse advise. Thanks JH
Hello Jeff

In the Ketron/Event sax demo you promoted on another current thread (PA5X one), the player didn't play the main sax part, but the piano accompaniment part.
That's also a "self playing keyboard" for me.
And I'm not interested at all.

Regards
Soundphase
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on October 31, 2022, 06:00:28 PM
Thank you very much, Soundphase, for your reply.
Now I understand what has been meant. :)

BTW, it has never been my intention to promote the Event.
I only was interested in John's ( UK ) comments and impressions.

For many reasons the Event will not be my next arranger keyboard.

Best wishes, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on October 31, 2022, 06:18:11 PM
Soundphase - you have completely the wrong end of the stick here. The video you refer to was to demonstrate the quality of the voice on the Event, not that the Event is a self playing keyboard. Doesn’t matter whether it’s a midi or a style part or some other function that lets the keyboard play automated parts, the voice quality is the same, so it demonstrates it well. And neither was it posted by Jeff.
The Event is no more a self playing keyboard than any other arranger. They all have some capability of playing parts or even  full songs ‘by themselves’ either by styles, midis or other features. But their primary purpose is to be played. I assume you already have an arranger which has some or all of these features, so some level of self playing, even if you are driving. That’s what arrangers do. 
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 31, 2022, 07:43:49 PM
Agreed, Mike. I assume the Event has a mixer where parts can be lowered or turned off. Some of the Genos styles have equally "busy" backgrounds, which can be tempered to nothing.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on October 31, 2022, 09:57:01 PM
Hi
Put VST with Genos and it blows the cobwebs off off anything :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: soundphase on November 01, 2022, 07:00:36 AM
Soundphase - you have completely the wrong end of the stick here. The video you refer to was to demonstrate the quality of the voice on the Event, not that the Event is a self playing keyboard. Doesn’t matter whether it’s a midi or a style part or some other function that lets the keyboard play automated parts, the voice quality is the same, so it demonstrates it well. And neither was it posted by Jeff.
The Event is no more a self playing keyboard than any other arranger. They all have some capability of playing parts or even  full songs ‘by themselves’ either by styles, midis or other features. But their primary purpose is to be played. I assume you already have an arranger which has some or all of these features, so some level of self playing, even if you are driving. That’s what arrangers do. 
Mike
I don’t like arranger demos where the player is not playing the main melodic part and the chords I hear. I always think someone is trying to deceive me.

I’m fully Ok when I see a computer is playing preprogrammed sequences.

So, using the style is ok, using the chord looper is really « my personal limit ». It’s an opinion. No more.

I understand other people disagree. But I wonder why they choose an arranger and not a sequencer with VSTs. They would have better results and it would be less expensive than a Genos.

As far as the sax sound is concerned, I think the Genos is currently able to reproduce the same result by carefully using the good midi messages in any sequencer.

I think Artificial Intelligence will help « normal players » to get such results « manually » in the future.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on November 01, 2022, 07:25:15 AM
Hey Guys :

Received a message this morning the Event/Ketron ( 76 n ) would cost approx. US$ 4,999.-- and supposedly available for sale in December 2022.

Hopefully time will tell soon if this news is fake or true.
Do not shoot the messenger, please.  ;)

Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Gunnar Jonny on November 01, 2022, 12:59:46 PM
Received a message this morning the Event/Ketron ( 76 n ) would cost approx. US$ 4,999.-- and supposedly available for sale in December 2022.

https://audioproct.com/ketron-event-76-key-flagship-arranger-keyboard/?showHidden=true (https://audioproct.com/ketron-event-76-key-flagship-arranger-keyboard/?showHidden=true)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on November 01, 2022, 03:02:16 PM
Thank you very much, Jonny, for your link that confirms the content of my message of this morning. :)

The Event looks to be an impressive arranger keyboard with ( too ? ) many " frightening " features and/or applications ?
Best regards, JH

 


Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: jugge on November 01, 2022, 03:26:12 PM
This guy is using both Genos and a Ketron SD90 and have some comparison videos between the two.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2bFH7ms9A4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2bFH7ms9A4)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on November 01, 2022, 05:01:31 PM
Hey Jugge :

Thank you for this link.

Never seen/heard such a weird presentation/comparison. Sorry.
I do not know what to say. ::)

Best regards, JH

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on November 01, 2022, 06:16:42 PM
The guy presents badly, talks too much, repeats the same points over and over, …but…cutting through all that it does show a very neat editing ability on the Ketron, and it’s definitely a step ahead of the Yamaha.
Of course, it makes little or no difference to many - maybe most - arranger players, who don’t want to do this kind of editing anyway. They just want to select and play.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on November 02, 2022, 02:13:52 PM
Here's a new demo from the Ketron Event - Soft Rock. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJpONy1_rx4

Sounds very good to me. Being able to have a different intro and ending when using a different key with the same Style is interesting.

Best regards,
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: usaraiya on November 02, 2022, 03:24:19 PM
Listening to these short demo clips is fascinating to know its superb sounds, but I cannot find a full review of the KB, which would be great to get to know the ins and outs of it.
MSRP $6000, street price of $5000 is quite sobering.
 :)
Uday
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 02, 2022, 04:01:23 PM
Listening to these short demo clips is fascinating to know its superb sounds, but I cannot find a full review of the KB, which would be great to get to know the ins and outs of it.
MSRP $6000, street price of $5000 is quite sobering.
 :)
Uday
Agreed on the price. I'm definitely waiting to hear Yamaha's response. Arrangers are getting way out of some peoples' price range. They used to be pricy but within grasp. I'm starting to wonder if my current Genos will be my last arranger. All I need is for Yamaha to fix my registration issue 👿!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on November 03, 2022, 06:24:24 PM
The Ketron Event will cost $5,000 here in the USA, and it will apparently be available in December in some countries. I really like the Event, although it apparently doesn't have Seamless Sound Switching/Transition, but of course the Pa5X does. I would rather have a Joystick than wheels, by the way. Since I already have a top-of-the-line arranger i.e. the Genos, I would be interested in a Ketron Event 'module' if Ketron makes one. The module should be more moderately priced too. PS: The Ketron Italy website is unreachable currently, so perhaps Ketron is doing maintenance and updating the website with hopefully comprehensive information regarding the Event including specifications since the Event is now listed on the Thomann Germany website. https://www.thomann.de/fr/ketron_event.htm?shp=eyJjb3VudHJ5IjoiZnIiLCJjdXJyZW5jeSI6MiwibGFuZ3VhZ2UiOjR9&reload=1

Here is a recent YouTube video talking about the Korg Pa5X and the Ketron Event.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnTt3vNUXhk

UPDATE: There is actually specifications regarding the Ketron Event on the Thomann Germany website link. I noticed the Event has 216 note Polyphony which is a lot better than the 160 note polyphony of the Pa5X. Better yet, I'll just add the info from the Thomann website.

Ketron Event Entertainer-Keyboard, 76 semi weighted touch responsible keys with aftertouch, 464 voices with 3 independet sounds each, 62 drum kits + 580 live drums, dual/layer, split, more than 400 styles, 4 banks with unlimited registrations, polyphony: 216 voices, 7" touch screen display, 15 sliders with LED indicator, 8 potis, pitch bend and modulation wheel, audio & midi Recording, audio player with 5+1 mulitracks, 2 separate player units, effects: DSP (reverb, chorus, flanger, overdrive, distortion, tremolo, autopan, equalizer, and more), 3-voice vocal harmony, 240 GB SSD (80GB for system), SD-Card slot (up to 512 GB), 1 GB user sample storage,bluetooth audio (input), WiFi network remote control via Ketron App, connections: main stereo output (2x 6.3mm jack, L/R + R), aux 1 & aux 2 (L/R), headphones 6.3mm stereo jack, sustain pedal, volume pedal, footswitch, Midi In1/In2/Out/Thru, line in L/R (2x 6.3mm mono jack), microphone input 1 (XLR), microphone input 2 (6.3mm jack), 2x USB to Device, USB to host, HDMI Out, dimensions (W x T x H) in mm: 1140 x 365 x 125, weight: 14.8 kg, color: black

No Seamless Sound Switching/Transition mentioned, so that's somewhat disappointing. All in all, it seems to be a great option for consideration.

All the best,
Mike 

 
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: usaraiya on November 03, 2022, 06:37:34 PM
http://ketronamerica.com/dealers.html

This website lists multiple dealers of Ketron in the US including 2 in Canada.
This may be useful information to some.

 :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 03, 2022, 11:42:17 PM
http://ketronamerica.com/dealers.html
This website lists multiple dealers of Ketron in the US including 2 in Canada.
This may be useful information to some.
 :)
Thanks. I didn't think we had any dealers. The one in Niagara Falls is about 2.5 hours away from me.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on November 03, 2022, 11:55:58 PM
This keyboard has my attention  :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on November 06, 2022, 10:40:10 PM
Well, dont get carried away, they made a decent looking list of dealers, but look at it in detail and you see many of the states are covered just by a bloke who plays a Ketron, not what I would think of as a a real keyboard dealer. I met one of the 'dealers' in Texas, and he was just a bloke responding from his house, and when I heard him play he sounded like my granddaughter who is just learning. Not an impressive company image.
I dont want to knock Ketron because it is a nice product, but their distribution and support network in North America seems very embryonic, and has been that way for many years.   
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on November 07, 2022, 04:54:49 PM

Have you heard/seen this video ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxYRuchkqw4

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 07, 2022, 06:36:03 PM
Have you heard/seen this video ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxYRuchkqw4
JH
Great sounds. That's not the Event though. He's likely a good player. Just wish he'd actually play something. Thanks for the link, Jeff.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on November 09, 2022, 10:50:00 AM
Hi Guys :

Finally we hear/see more about the Event's features and applications. :)

In these videos ( links below ) this gentleman ( of the Balkan region ? ) is explaining the various features and applications of the EVENT.
Some Yamaha Genos' and Korg's PA4X comparison.

It might be useful to know this man confirms there will be an EVENT MODULE available next year ( 2023 ) with the same features of the Event 76n.

Apparently there will come a 61n Event version - with less features - but it will be called differently.
I understand the 61n will have another brand name.

LINKS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_W8ozk2ZhM.
Some corrections/additional information : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8zOFRps0PQ

Have fun !
Best wishes, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on November 09, 2022, 02:19:07 PM
No sound samples in this video but a lot of information on its capabilities and advances. I took three things from this.
1. This keyboard is heavily designed to meet the needs/ dreams of live playing pro musicians rather than easy operation. Some of the features seem quite groundbreaking, although we have no idea from this video how well they actually work. But the big trade off is that all these features complicate the operation quite a bit, buttons everywhere, but good live control potential. Good gigging players will like it though because they are better for live control than having to go deep into menus to make changes.
It appears to me that both Ketron and to some extent Korg are targeting a different market segment than Yamaha, less of the home hobbies/ learner. That intermediate player or learner is a big slice of the arranger market, and I think Yamaha is dominant there. Maybe Korg are covering both bets a bit, but Ketron seems all in for the gigging player.
2. From what he says seems Ketron have concluded what became clear to Yamaha on the Tyros ….ie most people won’t choose a 61 key at almost the same price as a 76. So likely they will go the same route as Yamaha, the 61 key version will have less features, different branding and bigger price differential, a la Genos versus SX.
3. They are having same issues as Yamaha and Korg actually getting product manufactured and into the market.

To early to draw conclusions, but for what it’s worth my initial reaction is that this Ketron keyboard is not going to seriously dent the Genos or whatever Yamaha do next, nor would they expect it to. Ketron doesn’t have the market presence, or support and it is a more intimidating looking keyboard than the Genos or most Yamahas, so has less appeal to the intermediate player. But it is impressive on paper, and the gigging players with Yamaha arrangers might be liking what they see.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on November 09, 2022, 03:33:42 PM
Thanks for your interesting comments, Mike. :)

I wonder who might be interested in buying an Event Module next year ?
When I go back to their Audya4 ( Module ), the price difference was
small and the sales was low compared to their Audya5 ( keys ).
I guess their Event's pricing might be comparable, who knows.

I think you are right about their future 61n marketing policy.

Regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 09, 2022, 03:51:24 PM
Yes, excellent all around guys.

Ketron has two hurdles with which to deal: 1) Supply chain issues (as mentioned) and 2) Distribution. They can have the "best of the best" arrangers on the planet but there are about 360 million potential customers in North America but barely a handful of dealers. If they can survive on the European and Asian markets, all the more power to them but I'm old school. I need to audition a keyboard for hours before buying. I refuse to drive hours on one direction looking for a dealer who likely knows nothing about the keyboard. Buying a Ketron won't happen very often in Canada and will be difficult in the U.S.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on November 09, 2022, 05:21:50 PM
You are absolutely right, Lee.

Their worldwide distribution and their after sales' service have always been a serious issue.
Will that change soon ? Hard to believe, I guess.

In Europe Ketron most musicians know some of Ketron's products but I have no idea how important their market turnover is.
I have no clue how active they are in Asia but it would surprise me very much they are well known in this part of the world.

BUT ... IF the Event would become an attractive arranger keyboard for many pro giggers ( like you ) and home players, there might be found dealers in the USA and Canada.
Wishful thinking, I guess.  ???
Perhaps, our friend SOCRATIS, ( member of this PSR Tutorial Forum and one of Ketron's present Event's developers ) could tell us how Ketron's worldwide distribution strategy will look like.
I am afraid he will never answer this question due to his employment contract obligations.

Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on November 09, 2022, 05:30:51 PM
I think he will not answer this question because he doesn’t know. He is a contract ‘outside’ development engineer, probably working on specific design issues and unlikely to be in the know about Ketron business plans.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on November 10, 2022, 03:58:33 AM
You are absolutely right, Lee.

Their worldwide distribution and their after sales' service have always been a serious issue.
Will that change soon ? Hard to believe, I guess.

In Europe Ketron most musicians know some of Ketron's products but I have no idea how important their market turnover is.
I have no clue how active they are in Asia but it would surprise me very much they are well known in this part of the world.

BUT ... IF the Event would become an attractive arranger keyboard for many pro giggers ( like you ) and home players, there might be found dealers in the USA and Canada.
Wishful thinking, I guess.  ???
Perhaps, our friend SOCRATIS, ( member of this PSR Tutorial Forum and one of Ketron's present Event's developers ) could tell us how Ketron's worldwide distribution strategy will look like.
I am afraid he will never answer this question due to his employment contract obligations.

Best regards, JH
Hello.
This information does not conflict with the NDA that I have signed, but I am not in a position to know because I have absolutely nothing to do with the commercial department.
I will try to find out though, although I don't know how soon I might have an answer because these days the whole factory in Italy is very busy with the production and completion of the Event project so that it will be ready for shipment in early December.
However this is the distributors in accordance with site of Ketron https://www.ketron.it/en/distributors
I don't know if the list has been updated but it's not hard to find out.
Thanks. :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on November 10, 2022, 07:21:01 AM
Hi Socratis :

Many thanks for your fast reaction. Very much appreciated. :)
Impressive list though.

Looking forward to receiving your answer(s) soon ;).

Thank you.
Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 10, 2022, 01:21:19 PM
Thanks for the list, Sokratis1974. There is only one distributor in Canada and one in the U.S. What's more important is a decent dealer network. There are none in Canada as far as I can see. We can't audition one from a distributor - I don't think.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rphillipchuk on November 10, 2022, 03:29:18 PM
There are none in Canada as far as I can see. We can't audition one from a distributor - I don't think.

That is stopping me from purchasing.... I have been in touch with AJ ....I have did the math and it would be $7600 Canadian with taxes..and probably another $250 for Customs.     So approximately $8000.00 Canadian all in !!!!    WITHOUT TOUCHING THE KEYBOARD.... + 20% restocking fee........

I need to play one before spending that kind of money !
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 10, 2022, 03:37:44 PM
That is stopping me from purchasing.... I have been in touch with AJ ....I have did the math and it would be $7600 Canadian with taxes...and probably another $250 for Customs.     So approximately $8000.00 Canadian all in !!!!    WITHOUT TOUCHING THE KEYBOARD.... + 20% restocking fee........
I need to play one before spending that kind of money !
Agreed. That price is nuts. I'd wager Genos 2 won't get that high.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Duffy on November 11, 2022, 09:01:46 AM
Ketron Event price in UK £4249
Full details now on Ketron UK site
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on November 11, 2022, 09:55:09 AM
Hello Canadian Friends :

Paper is patient.
I absolutely agree with your concerns about purchasing a Ketron/Event in your country.

It is very risky to buy blindly such an unknown and expensive arranger keyboard in a region where this brand/model is barely to be found.
There is no musician in the whole world who will order a not thoroughly tested expensive instrument.

IMHO it might be wise to wait for the new high end Yamaha ( Genos2 ? ).
If it takes too long before Yamaha will launch a Genos'successor or ... if you do not like it ... there is now a very good Japanese alternative, at a reasonable price, right ? :) 

Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on November 11, 2022, 09:57:26 AM
Keytron Event in Europe/ Benelux, €4849,- (delevering 3 weeks) as the Genos 1 costs €4248,- (on stock)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on November 11, 2022, 10:47:40 AM
Thank you, Ton, for this interesting local Event's price information. :)

I wonder if there are still musicians who have the intention to buy a brand new Genos now, at the present unit price ?  ???
As soon as the world will know when the new high end Yamaha arranger will be launched ( or maybe sooner ? ) we might expect there will follow a Genos price advantage
to get rid of Yamaha's and/or dealers ' remaining stock.

Best wishes, JH



Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 11, 2022, 12:35:29 PM
Hello Canadian Friends :
Paper is patient.
I absolutely agree with your concerns about purchasing a Ketron/Event in your country.
It is very risky to buy blindly such an unknown and expensive arranger keyboard in a region where this brand/model is barely to be found.
There is no musician in the whole world who will order a not thoroughly tested expensive instrument.

IMHO it might be wise to wait for the new high end Yamaha ( Genos2 ? ).
If it takes too long before Yamaha will launch a Genos'successor or ... if you do not like it ... there is now a very good Japanese alternative, at a reasonable price, right ? :)
Best regards, JH
Great advice, as usual Jeff. I'm still willing to wait for Yamaha to reply with Genos 2. Meanwhile, despite the shortcomings of my Genos, it still works and sounds great. It's not like I can't gig anymore until Yamaha figures out my registration issue, which I doubt they will. I haven't heard from my support guy for two weeks 😣.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on November 11, 2022, 02:15:40 PM
Hello Lee :

Let me first thank you for your critical, realistic and very positive comments as far as the Genos is concerned. :)
Your arranger is your much needed tool to guarantee your daily income. For us, home players, our arranger is a hobby. Two different worlds.

When a new high end competitive arranger is presented on the internet, like the PA5X and the Event, most of us are reacting differently : critical -, positive - and negative impressions.
After the first impressions, we want to know much more about their new baby and we are comparing the differences between the new competitive arranger and our Yamaha : features, novelties, appearance, quality, applications etc.
Yamaha's competitors have very good products but they are different than ours.

BUT finally ... generally, many of us have decided not to go for a competitive arranger keyboard. We are buying an other Yamaha again and we all know why.

For more than 20 years Yamaha is the global market leader. That is a fact.
Of course our keyboards have shortcomings. All arrangers have their pros and cons.
And of course Yamaha must stay sharp and continuously improve their products to keep their #1 position.
It is our duty to keep Yamaha sharp, right ?  ;)

Even our competitors are always comparing their arrangers with ours.
They do not even hide their deep respect for Yamaha's reputation. See all video's on YouTube.
I am also respecting Korg and Ketron, nice new arrangers, but ... I prefer Yamaha. :)

Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 11, 2022, 03:45:12 PM
Thanks and good points, Jeff.

The one Golden Egg we Genos users have is, the competition has shown their hands early in the card game (using a poker analogy). Yamaha knows what they're up against. They are also experts at reverse engineering a competitor's product. If the Genos 2 is delayed by 6 months or a year so Yamaha can surpass the competition, so be it. We Genos users will be the beneficiaries of that technological gain, assuming Yamaha can achieve the desired results. I have faith that they can.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on November 11, 2022, 03:59:21 PM
When you are spending a lot of money you want to know what the company you are buying from has in the way of Tech support and after care services. We all know that Yamaha are top notch at this.
 In the past I had very poor service from Korg and had to get in touch with the Managing Director to get my faults put right. I did not keep my Korg long after that.
 Have never had dealings with Ketron and feel I don't want to risk dealings with the unknown.
  I always say better the Devil you know than not.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on November 12, 2022, 02:00:20 PM
When you are spending a lot of money you want to know what the company you are buying from has in the way of Tech support and after care services. We all know that Yamaha are top notch at this.
 In the past I had very poor service from Korg and had to get in touch with the Managing Director to get my faults put right. I did not keep my Korg long after that.
 Have never had dealings with Ketron and feel I don't want to risk dealings with the unknown.
  I always say better the Devil you know than not.

Hi Eileen
Today i listened to the Ketron up against the Genos  and  Sandra my other half immedietly said that the Ketron sounded to sharp.
The Genos sounds a lot mellower than the Ketron.
I remember when you said that my songs sounded sharp and that as i have found out was due to missing low mids.
Now i have found a program called AB Metric which compares your song to the original and you can match between  sub, lowmid, highmid, bass and high.
After the ears get used to soloing each frequency you are in the final mix ballpark.
So my latest recording will be a lot warmer HOPE!!!
I am nearly at the end of my apprentice learn curve now and hope to be an average mixer at my age, but still the master!!Lol :)



All the best
John :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on November 12, 2022, 03:09:17 PM
Hi John :

Making a recording, a mixing and a mastering is a very difficult job.

Today many musicians have their own " home recording studio ".
 It became a huge business to sell home recording gear since the digital era took over the analogue period.

However there is a big difference between professional recording and home recording.

With a home studio one can make reasonable demo recordings but professional recordings can only be made in pro audio recording studio's.

Best wishes, JH

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Amwilburn on November 12, 2022, 06:27:15 PM
I'll be blunt, the Event looks pretty cool. But even working at a music store, will I ever see one? Probably not. And for exactly the reasons stated above: there is very little distribution and service in Canada. We *did* carry Ketron a *long* time ago, and so did our local competitor until a few years ago. Both of us have dropped them. Was there something wrong with the sound quality? Not as far as I know (we dropped it before I started working here), but I was told that it was just too much of a pain to get warranty service, etc (you can imagine being told "Sorry, we have to ship this to another country so you may have to wait a *year* or longer to get your keyboard back as there is no local repair depot". It wasn't the only brand we had this issue with, same reason we stopped carrying GEM (GEneral Music); which had superior Middle Eastern sounds and beats at the time, but the troublesome service issues meant it just wasn't worth carrying.

Not that both brands had tons of issues either; it's just glaring when you have no local service depot.
Additionally, Ketron's last keyboard before the Event, the SD60? Is an eye-watering $9499 CDN. Nearly all North American retailers stopped carrying them when that happened.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: pjd on November 12, 2022, 06:42:13 PM
Yamaha knows what they're up against. They are also experts at reverse engineering a competitor's product. If the Genos 2 is delayed by 6 months or a year so Yamaha can surpass the competition, so be it.

Yamaha already know quite a bit about combining audio and MIDI for auto-accompaniment. They have several patents:

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-patents-apr2017/
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-patents-summary-2017/

There was such a hue and cry about the original (and still existing) "audio styles" that Yamaha may be reluctant to pursue this approach. We'll see, I guess.

The Ketron Event does sound good and has some spiffy features to break up the monotony of auto-accompaniment. I have to go along with Mark (and others) as to North American (NA) sales, distribution and support infrastructure. It's kind of a weak sales climate for top-end arrangers in NA already -- not a good business climate for Ketron.

I do respect Ketron products, BTW.

All the best -- pj


Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on November 12, 2022, 10:52:15 PM

The Ketron Event does sound good and has some spiffy features to break up the monotony of auto-accompaniment. I have to go along with Mark (and others) as to North American (NA) sales, distribution and support infrastructure. It's kind of a weak sales climate for top-end arrangers in NA already -- not a good business climate for Ketron.

I do respect Ketron products, BTW.

All the best -- pj

Ketron is trying to increase their meager sales and support infrastructure. As far as sales and service there are now a few affiliations in California, Connecticut, several in Florida, Illinois, Indiana, Maryland, several in New York, North Dakota, Oregon, Puerto Rico, Texas, Wisconsin, and Canada. I live in California, so if I purchased a Ketron Event I could have it serviced if need be near Los Angeles, which is around 100 miles from me. I'm not sure if Ketron provides free shipping both to and from service centers for products under warranty. There is no FAQ on the Ketron America website, and there is no way to contact Ketron America by email, since the 'Contact Us' link on the website is broken. Seems rather amateurish and archaic that there is no way to communicate with them except by phone. A professional looking and working website would draw more attention and interest to Ketron products, needless to say. Oh well. AJ i.e. Ajua Alemanji is in charge of Ketron America from what I understand and this should be brought to his attention if it hasn't already.

The Event ain't cheap but it sounds great, and it has features not found on the competition, but it also doesn't have Seamless Sound Transition/Switching that is found in the Korg Pa5X. A little bit of give and take. I agree the Saxes on the Pa5X leave something to be desired, but I'm guessing Korg and 3rd Party affiliates will offer expandable sounds including Saxes, etc., that sound superior to the factory Saxes? Also, with the Pa5X micro-editing capability, it's likely possible to improve upon the 'out of box' sounds more to your liking with a few tweaks. $5,000 for the Event is actually about a grand less than the current price of a new Yamaha Genos here in the States. When the Genos first arrived on the scene, I could have purchased one for $4,200 out the door, delivered to my doorstep. But instead I chose to buy one at a Guitar Center near me which eliminates the hassle of having to return it to an out-of-state dealer such as Sweetwater.com, etc. where I'd have to cover shipping and handling charges if I decided I didn't want it. Plus, at Guitar Center, I was able to actually play a Genos before I decided to purchase it. Buying sight unseen is a risky venture and I, for one, would rather see and play a keyboard first if possible. But I digress. Have a great weekend!

All the best,
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: tyrosman on November 13, 2022, 09:41:11 AM
I doubt that any dealers anywhere know a thing about a new Genos. Yamaha are very strict on who knows what and only essential staff will know anything and will risk losing their jobs if things are released before time. Dealers are the last to know anything about new launches.
  My Money is on 76 note only.
same here Eileen ;)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on November 13, 2022, 09:50:52 AM
Hi Mike :

Thank you very much for your interesting US Event information. :)

Up to now Ketron's European service has always been weak.
Will that change now the Event will be available as of
December 2022 ?
Only time will tell but ... even dealers and endusers seem not be convinced yet, IMO.

It is hard to believe Korg and Yamaha customers will order
an Event now the new PA5X is available and a new Yamaha high end will arrive in 2023.

JH

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 13, 2022, 01:20:08 PM
Good points. One thing is for certain - any company who wants to go against Yamaha in the music business had better "go big or go home." Yamaha has the support and dealer network in place over much of the world. Ketron is up against two issues: 1) Producing a superior product and 2) Getting it out there so people can try it out and perhaps buy it. There's no money in a product that just sits as inventory 🤣.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on November 13, 2022, 03:12:29 PM
Hi Lee :

In most Event video's this keyboard seems to sound OK, seems to look well, the specs are shown but ... the product is high priced.
We do not hear one single word about their global distribution strategy, dealership and after sales service.
A very unusual commercial approach, IMO.
 
I think you made a proper analysis.
There are too many unanswered questions, too many question marks that might frighten potential dealers and endusers.
It feels so risky and irresponsible to spend this amount of money. No Event for me. ;) 

JH




Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 13, 2022, 03:22:16 PM
Agreed, Jeff. It does sound great but what good is that when you can't even get one 🤣?
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rphillipchuk on November 13, 2022, 03:56:31 PM
Good points. One thing is for certain - any company who wants to go against Yamaha in the music business had better "go big or go home." Yamaha has the support and dealer network in place over much of the world. Ketron is up against two issues: 1) Producing a superior product and 2) Getting it out there so people can try it out and perhaps buy it. There's no money in a product that just sits as inventory 🤣.

Well Said Lee !
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on November 13, 2022, 09:05:46 PM
Lee , It depends on their business plan. A company with low overheads, bare bones infrasttucture may only need to sell 500 of one keyboard model to be deemed successful while a giant like Yamaha might need to sell 10,000. Ketron may not care that much about growing to compete head to head with the mega companies. There’s lots of ways to be a successful business or maybe even get acquired and never need to invest in infrastructure.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 13, 2022, 11:09:53 PM
Agreed, Mike. The bigger they are, the harder it is to maintain market share. There have been companies bigger than Yamaha that disappeared overnight! Ketron may feel that selling 500 units is a major win for them. Gross sales sometimes mean nothing. It's "How much profit did you make?"
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: usaraiya on November 14, 2022, 12:45:27 AM
Got this email from AJ, Ketron sales/support:

Taking orders now until 11/15/2022 for delivery in December 2022. Cost is $4,999.00 shipped.
Next orders will be in Feb 2023 for delivery in March 2023.

KETRON EVENT DEMOS (Please subscribe to our Youtube channel for more)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igss1qU9_8c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QrzAgrqR5M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpzKndCMOkg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q_MbeQvpFU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sakfcfkzKc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9folgah8v0



KETRON USA

"It has to sound right & tight"
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on November 14, 2022, 05:21:56 PM
Lee - there is also the question of focus. Yamaha do a pretty good job of dividing up the company into smaller units that focus on specific ranges of instruments, while probably still being able to leverage corporate resources at least somewhat. And I am sure that somewhere in the Yamaha org there is a middle manager that lives or dies by the Genos sales.
But to put the Genos into perspective, Yamaha make well over 100,000 acoustic pianos per year. Taking into account the average selling price of an acoustic is probably close to 5 or 6 times the selling price of a Genos, that makes Genos no more than a drop in the ocean in the Yamaha spectrum. So how much time do you think the top corporate people really spend worrying about whether or not a Ketron or a Korg arranger might impact their Genos sales?
People on the forum spend a lot of time talking about how Yamaha need to wake up and address the competition for the Genos. Do you think Yamaha as a whole spend as much time??
But Ill bet Ketron talk about nothing else.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: pjd on November 14, 2022, 06:02:55 PM
I think I posted this breakdown of USA sales (by dollar volume) once before:

Fretted Products           $1,891M
Pro Audio                     853M
Wind Instruments              611M
Percussion                    374M
Acoustic Pianos               307M
DJ Gear                       264M
Digital Pianos                182M
Keyboard Synthesizer          159M
Portable Keyboards            127M
Stringed Instruments          125M
Electronic Player Pianos      100M

Market data from 2019, source: NAMM. "Portable keyboards" is subdivided by retail value:

Keyboards under $199         41.3%
Keyboards over $199          58.7%

That's NAMMs methodology, not mine.  :)

Compared to guitars, we're chump change.  ;D

All the best -- pj



Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on November 14, 2022, 06:08:17 PM
Hi @Mikf, I partially agree with you. But don't underestimate that nowadays big internationals also focus strongly on 'brand awareness' and global 'advertising'. So while this keyboard customer base may be a bit smaller, for the company it's certainly an important aspect of its global revenues throught the proces mentioned above.  ;)
It's not always only the profit of the 'hardware' sales, 'marketing the brand' is also important.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 14, 2022, 07:15:55 PM
Good points, ton37 and Mike.

Spin off sales are also critical for Yamaha. I've owned several PSR and Tyros models but I've also owned a few Motif, MOX, stage pianos, and Clavinova pianos. I'm probably a drop in the bucket compared to other players but Yamaha is aware of the importance of players like me who venture into products other than the Genos. They'll do a lot to keep us guys around.

As a sidebar, I used to play a little guitar in high school. I'm thinking of picking up a Yamaha student acoustic to use in our jazz trio. Playing background piano gets boring after a while unless your name is Oscar Peterson or Diana Krall 🤣. If I do this, there's yet another side sale for Yamaha.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mixermixer on November 14, 2022, 07:47:25 PM
I think I posted this breakdown of USA sales (by dollar volume) once before:

Fretted Products           $1,891M
Pro Audio                     853M
Wind Instruments              611M
Percussion                    374M
Acoustic Pianos               307M
DJ Gear                       264M
Digital Pianos                182M
Keyboard Synthesizer          159M
Portable Keyboards            127M
Stringed Instruments          125M
Electronic Player Pianos      100M

Market data from 2019, source: NAMM. "Portable keyboards" is subdivided by retail value:

Keyboards under $199         41.3%
Keyboards over $199          58.7%

That's NAMMs methodology, not mine.  :)

Compared to guitars, we're chump change.  ;D

All the best -- pj





Interesting to see whats the updated breakdown, Yamaha is having issues with supply in their Dante products in the Pro Audio spectrum. All their digital mixing consoles haven't been available for quite some time. Thinking that would take a hit.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on November 14, 2022, 10:54:08 PM
My guess is that for the worldwide acoustic piano sales the number is probably about
$1.5Bn - they claim to make over 100,000 plus pianos a year. Say at about average $15,000.  Uprights maybe average $2- 3000, but grands go all the way up to 100k plus for a Bosendorfer. They make about 300 Bosendorfers per annum.
Genos worldwide sales annually - maybe a few million $$s, probably less than one days output of acoustic pianos.
Puts it in perspective.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: soundphase on November 15, 2022, 09:26:17 AM
Hopefully, Yamaha has also to prepare the future and not only looks at the past financial results.

I think Genos participates to Yamaha's reputation, relatively more than its part in sales and has a big internal impact for Yamaha R&D results.
So it could have more strategic value for this.

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on November 15, 2022, 09:42:50 AM
Is it realistic to think the new Genos2 price might be approx. 10% higher than the present Genos price ?
( The present Genos price already has been increased recently by 10% compared to the 2017 price due to the covid 19 problems in 2021/22, am I right ?? ).

Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on November 15, 2022, 11:39:40 AM
It is not realistic to think anything until a new keyboard is launched and the price is then known. Then it makes sense to talk about it. All this Will it Won't it Dose it Doesn't it gets you know where.
Just enjoy what you have and produce some nice music. Let the forum get back to what it is supposed to do and help one another get the best from what we have and enjoy trying new things. I bet half the people on here have not used all of the functions on their Yamaha keyboards that they could.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Henni on November 15, 2022, 11:52:33 AM
From that recent video about Ketron's new release, it sounds like they are using Band In A Box (BIAB) styling technology. For those who have never used this program, all you do is insert the basic chords in a song and BIAB generates the correct styling complete with stylistic chords. It can be Country, Jazz, Blues, you name it BIAB will do it. That, combined with what sounds like round robin styling, will make the Ketron a most formidable competitor to the PA5X and Genos 2. But there's more...

It's one thing to produce perfect sounds and styles on a new arranger. It's another thing to make the device usable. Many have criticized the PA5X operating system as being clunky and too tech orientated. This falls under the category of "usability." For the better part, the Genos is easy to use, other than the Style Editor being similar to a bull in China shop. If Korg and Ketron have produced a superior product than the Genos, that's one thing. If their OS system is clunky or too complicated, Yamaha has little to worry about. I'm sure Genos 2 will give these two other companies pause.

Agreed: The impression I get is that finally Ketron made an arranger that would compete with Band In a Box. They use live wave samples for the style parts with solo live instruments following your chord progressions accurately. Some thought that this could not be done in a Live environment as BIAB can analyze your song before rendering it and Event cannot.

My hat off to Ketron. I've always said that this would be the way forward for arrangers. Once again Ketron is the trailblazer is this new environment. You bet I will have one of these in the near future...
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on November 15, 2022, 02:04:18 PM
It is not realistic to think anything until a new keyboard is launched and the price is then known. Then it makes sense to talk about it. All this Will it Won't it Dose it Doesn't it gets you know where.
Just enjoy what you have and produce some nice music. Let the forum get back to what it is supposed to do and help one another get the best from what we have and enjoy trying new things. I bet half the people on here have not used all of the functions on their Yamaha keyboards that they could.
Hi @Eleen, your reactions to this are predictable and are also appreciated. If people are annoyed by it, they can just skip it and not read it. But don't deprive the forum members for some 'daydreaming', it's just for fun for many. It doesn't harm anyone and it keeps the 'jeu' in a bit. Usually the 'having' is the end of the pleasure... happy daydreaming ;-)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on November 15, 2022, 02:56:11 PM
It is not realistic to think anything until a new keyboard is launched and the price is then known.
But it is launched and the price is known…… this thread is about the Ketron Event not the next Yamaha.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on November 15, 2022, 03:26:40 PM
This thread has been posted on the Genos section and seems to be about three different keyboards Korg, Ketron and Genos. It is Jeff that mentions the price of new Genos which of course is not known.
  Of course, knowing what else is out there is of interest to some and there have been links posted for us to see.
  I am not out to deprive anything from anyone, but I think this thread is now going round in ever decreasing circles and maybe should be moved to general chit chat.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 15, 2022, 03:44:00 PM
Eileen's points are well taken and respected.

She's correct in saying the main goal of this forum is, "How to do this or that" on the Genos because the manual is ambiguous or too general. Its been five years since the Genos was released and I'd venture to say that most topics and issues have been covered. That leaves us to discuss, "What's next for Genos owners?" The only fodder currently available that can stimulate such conversation or dreams is the emergence of two competing arrangers. It's natural for this discussion to take place. If Yamaha even catches one idea from our discussion to add to the Genos 2, we all win.

Move it to another topic area? Perhaps but I have this forum saved in my favorites. I really dislike having to go to the Home page and dig for the topic. I suppose that once found, I could create a second favorite, but the speculation about Genos 2 and its relationship to the two new products on the block is still very relevant. Despite the twists and turns in this ONE thread, it still boils down to our thoughts about the current Genos. For example, suppose someone says, "The PA5X can do 'this' but the Genos can't." Then, someone says, "Yes you can do that on the Genos. Here's how." Do we move this topic back here because all of a sudden, the question pertains to this part of the forum?

Leave this topic where it is.

Edit
One more thought, if I may. I've noticed in the past year that questions about the Genos are drifting very deep into areas where 99% of us never go, and that is recording and production. This is further proof that we've pretty much covered everything common to most players.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: RoyB on November 15, 2022, 03:46:54 PM
As the original poster, I started this thread in the Genos section as a news item of specific interest To Genos owners because a direct competitor to the Genos was about to be launched with some new interesting and unique features.

In the spirit of free debate, members have made contributions, expressed opinions and taken the discussion in the direction of their choosing (but still revolving around the Ketron Event compared to the Genos). It is all rather harmless (and some of it is informative). so I don't see anything wrong with that.

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 15, 2022, 03:48:40 PM
Agreed, Roy. If your topic had little relevance to most of us, it wouldn't occupy six pages of forum space 😉.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on November 15, 2022, 04:02:50 PM
This thread has been posted on the Genos section and seems to be about three different keyboards Korg, Ketron and Genos. It is Jeff that mentions the price of new Genos which of course is not known.
  Of course, knowing what else is out there is of interest to some and there have been links posted for us to see.
  I am not out to deprive anything from anyone, but I think this thread is now going round in ever decreasing circles and maybe should be moved to general chit chat.
Ok, but where's that 'General Chit Chat' section? I assume you know the policy of the forum owner/forum moderators in this regard?

Additional: I can assure you if Yamaha only comes out with a new keyboard in 2024/2025 (I still count it on half 2023!) the 'chit chat' about Korg and Ketron (in combination/comparison with e.g. a SX-900/Genos1) only but will increase ..
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: pjd on November 15, 2022, 05:36:31 PM
Agreed, Roy. If your topic had little relevance to most of us, it wouldn't occupy six pages of forum space 😉.

It's only bits. How much Internet space have we "wasted" -- a few hundred kilobytes?  ;D I'd rather worry about hunger and world peace.

MEH -- pj
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 15, 2022, 06:51:10 PM
Right on, PJ. Down with war and hunger!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Henni on November 16, 2022, 01:10:00 PM
The more videos I watch, the more I am convinced that this is like BIAB put into an arranger. It seems like the styles use mostly, if not only, audio parts. And then there is the solo parts which plays semi melodies that follows your chord progressions. Plus different intro/endings for different chords (not only majors & minors, but also for  purely different major chords) which will make things much less boring.

Once again Ketron made a stunning breakthrough and I simply cannot wait to have one of these. They are readily available around $4999 which is good value for money. For now I am collecting all videos I can find. No more tweaking midi styles. Nothing can compare with real life audio. You close your eyes and you hear a real band - as this IS a real band playing. No fakes anywhere to be found. AMAZING!!!

https://youtu.be/8glvNLZtph8  https://youtu.be/p07dCeTRcEw  https://youtu.be/MqWyyfh5ELQ  https://youtu.be/9ARTaU3I4nE  https://youtu.be/iqZSaQiBymk

https://youtu.be/V-VE02rdmjQ  https://youtu.be/gVWwrOSgvlY  https://youtu.be/z04kHuatFNU  https://youtu.be/C-WYrfDdRsA  https://youtu.be/i3deAuYNvjk

https://youtu.be/L-XPOkF6FvA  https://youtu.be/aSN-3xvRYwI  https://youtu.be/BKydoIukjLY  https://youtu.be/o_di2n-rCkU  https://youtu.be/o_W8ozk2ZhM

https://youtu.be/a8zOFRps0PQ  https://youtu.be/z04kHuatFNU  https://youtu.be/igss1qU9_8c

Apologies if some of these already appeared on this topic - I am merely listing EVERYTHING I can find above.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on November 16, 2022, 05:38:32 PM
Hey Hennie :

It is great to hear your voice again. :)

It looks like you are very interested in the Event.
You are very familiar with Ketron, see your Audya5 you had in the past.

The sound and features of the Ketron's Event look great but their after sales service has always been a problem.
What about their dealership and service in your country, South Africa ?

For most members here Ketron's present global dealership and after sales service might be a serious problem.

Last but not least we do not know how the Yamaha's new Genos2
will look like and which novelties can be expected yet.

Best wishes, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 16, 2022, 05:50:32 PM
I used Band In A Box about eight years ago and even that version was and still is far superior to any arranger.

If Ketron has managed to turn this famous piece of software into an arranger, they'll be very popular. I have to say, after hearing the Ketron styles and then the Genos styles, the Genos styles sound way behind the times. Don't get me wrong. The Genos is still a stellar stage and home arranger but if Yamaha only "refreshes" the Genos 2 with some minor upgrades as they did with all five of the Tyros series, I won't be updating. Somehow I think Yamaha will do better then Ketron. Can't wait to find out 🤣!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: maartenb on November 18, 2022, 09:43:24 AM
I used Band In A Box about eight years ago and even that version was and still is far superior to any arranger.

This can be explained by two factors:

BIAB and arrangers are two different animals, designed with different use cases in mind.


Maarten
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: maartenb on November 18, 2022, 10:09:35 AM
I am merely listing EVERYTHING I can find above.

Thank you, Henni. This collection of demos does sound impressive.

I am just so curious to hear the Event in a real life situation, like someone playing a (cover) song with it. What will I hear then? Will the chord changes sounds smooth? How well will the "improv lines" follow the chord progression? Will the improv lines be musically useful and suiting to the song being played? Etc.


Maarten
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 18, 2022, 01:40:07 PM
You're 100% right, Maarten. However, you're comparing the operational part of BIAB versus the Genos. It's like comparing apples to oranges but those are both fruit, just as the ultimate goal of BIAB and the Genos is to produce music.

I suppose what I'm saying is, the Event just sounds better with its far superior variations in background instrumentation. Ketron has managed to create a hybrid of BIAB and an arranger. That puts Yamaha WAY behind. The Genos is excellent but it still uses outdated, boiler plate patterns that just repeat. For me, if Genos 2 doesn't abandon that ancient technology and ends up as a refreshed Genos, I won't bother upgrading.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Misu on November 18, 2022, 02:37:53 PM
Hi to everyone,

IMO
With only 1Gb memory for the user, 7 inch fixed display and good sound it should be at a price between SX900 and Genos.
If it has greater style editing capabilities, let's say 3500 euros, it's a fair price.
I don't know anything about BIAB but for 3 years I've also had a KORG and in many styles variation 3 (7) G7 goes up with the bass and others to C as well as var.4 (dim) can do arpeggios and when changing it continues exactly as it should be.
Let's not forget that there are 6 chord variations in total.
Even the saxophone that follows the chords is not something new, but only something newly presented. I may be wrong.
I have enough styles with a melodic line on styles similar to some musettes on Main D.
Different inputs on Maj and Min have been with Korg for at least 15 years.
Even at Yamaha I have something like this, only that there is a condition to have the same sequence of C-F-G7 and Cm-Fm-G7 chords so that part of the channels can be used for both intros.
Or without this condition, fewer channels on intros.
If there are more news, we will see.

Best regards.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on November 18, 2022, 02:38:27 PM
Hi Guys :

Apparently the first Event's deliveries are expected to arrive at some European ( ? ) dealers just before X-mas 2022.
The second shipment has been planned for March 2023, one said.

We do not know if the delivered Event keyboards ( December 2022 ) have been sold yet ( to endusers ) and when dealers will have time to make their first video's on Youtube.
X-Mas is a very busy period and dealers' priority #1 will be to sell stock items as much as possible.

Up to now we have heard and seen very short Event video clips and specs.
I have to agree the Event seems to be impressive but what about " the real thing " ?

No video news before mid January 2023 ? Wait and see what will happen early January 2023.  ;)

BTW price info : approx. 5,000 US$.

Best regards, JH

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on November 18, 2022, 02:57:44 PM
[quote author=Misu link=topic=64153.msg490829#msg490829 date=1668782273
IMO
With only 1Gb memory for the user, 7 inch fixed display and good sound it should be at a price between SX900 and Genos.
If it has greater style editing capabilities, let's say 3500 euros, it's a fair price.

[/quote]
Misu- not sure how you came up with this, Ketron Event price indications are much higher. Maybe 5000 euros or more. I think someone had a quote of $8000 Canadian, more like $6000 US.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Misu on November 18, 2022, 03:01:09 PM
Hi

I know it is 4900Euros
Here you have a friend comment from my country.

<<<At this price, the keyboard is a joke.
1GB for samplers?
As 1.5 are for extorting money from users, probably through the sound banks sold by them..
Then, in the digital age, is there no digital audio output?
not even at Output Analog, it doesn't say that they are balanced...
... not even at the entrances.
Even the Medeli AKX10, a Chinese product, has 256 polyphony.
1280 user sounds, means about 10 banks of 128, but with 1 GB of sample memory... if you can't combine the internal oscillators with the sampler ones, in 2 banks you've finished the sampler memory.
Ah, I was forgetting...
Now, in Genos, I have 38 packages of 128 users..
And I still have about 700-800mb free...

And 4 layers per user sound, again, it's a bad, amateurish joke.
On the Yamaha you have 32 stereo layers.

The sounds he boasts about are actually a kind of S.Articulation from Yamaha. Anyone who knows how the Saxophone sounds on the Genos, or other instruments with Articulation, what glissando, or other effects it has, understands what I'm saying.

2 simultaneous effects can be inserted as an insert on a style?
"1 Insert to Arranger chords, 1 Insert to Real Chord."
On Genos, I play all 8 tracks, you can even combine them.
Genos has 27 inset fx simultaneously. 27!!!

Genos is right, only Audio Style as drums, Ketron would also be bass.
They say it goes directly from the ssd (direct streaming), which would not load the sampler memory.
But also with Genos, Audio Style goes directly from usb or ssd.
I don't see anything written about sampler compatibility, not even with the old Ketron series.
What am I kidding?
On 2 Main out and 2 auxiliary (which from the description are actually 1 stereo)? But maybe I'm wrong and Aux 1 is a separate stereo output from Aux2.
Then we have L-R (Main), Ls-Rs (Aux1) and C-Sub (Aux2).
But if they are not balanced outputs, it's a shame of the sound, goodbye fidelity.

But what are the specifications, I would only understand a Ketron fan buying something like this, instead of a Genos.>>>

Regards
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on November 18, 2022, 03:35:23 PM
Misu - I see where your friend is coming from, but don’t think the ‘tech spec’ comparison approach is very important to most arranger buyers. For example I bet 90% of arranger players never mess with samples. Don’t care about layers etc.
 Do they like how it sounds, looks, plays, - thats what they will judge. I don’t think I have ever even looked at specs when buying a keyboard, I look at what others are saying about it, play it if possible then decide. $5000 is a lot, but not extraordinary for a TOTL arranger.
Ketron is a bit of a niche product, but based on what we see and hear so far, it seems impressive regardless of the specs.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Henni on November 18, 2022, 04:13:48 PM
If one could use some of the AWESOME BIAB wave loops to modify existing audio Ketron styles, the results would be AMAZING!!!! And I have a strong suspicion that this might just be possible...
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rphillipchuk on November 18, 2022, 05:04:02 PM
What I find amazing is that even though the PA5X is relative new, for every one video that Ketron makes, there are 10 that are professionally made for the PA5X.

I know that Ketron is small compared to "Korg" but surely they could spend some money on marketing to at least compete with Korg.

I have a huge interest in the "Event" but I cannot play one, I cannot see one, I cannot touch one ..... So all that I have left is the few videos that I can find on Youtube.  I just got back from "Long and Mcquade's" and there is absolutely no info of its existence on their main Site.

I have done the math and if you order from AJ or any other American Company, they will happily send you an Event for approximately $7500/8000 Canadian total ( $4999.00 + State Tax + Shipping (?) + Customs + exchange rate )

That is a lot of money to spend on a keyboard unseen.

I have saved and put aside some monies and I am ready to purchase. The only Boards that interest me are:
Ketron Event
Yamaha CVP 809
Korg 88 PA5X



 
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 18, 2022, 06:08:40 PM
What I find amazing is that even though the PA5X is relative new, for every one video that Ketron makes, there are 10 that are professionally made for the PA5X.
I know that Ketron is small compared to "Korg" but surely they could spend some money on marketing to at least compete with Korg.
I have a huge interest in the "Event" but I cannot play one, I cannot see one, I cannot touch one ..... So all that I have left is the few videos that I can find on Youtube.  I just got back from "Long and Mcquade's" and there is absolutely no info of its existence on their main Site.
I have done the math and if you order from AJ or any other American Company, they will happily send you an Event for approximately $7500/8000 Canadian total ( $4999.00 + State Tax + Shipping (?) + Customs + exchange rate )
That is a lot of money to spend on a keyboard unseen.
I have saved and put aside some monies and I am ready to purchase. The only Boards that interest me are:
Ketron Event
Yamaha CVP 809
Korg 88 PA5X
Fellow Canadian here 👍. The Event is a no go for me. Too much money for an unknown and unplayable keyboard before purchase. If L&M knows nothing about it, no one else will. I'm confident Yamaha's answer to the Event and 5X will be amazing. I'm willing to wait.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on November 19, 2022, 11:59:48 AM
Hey Lee :

The Event is no option for me either.

Will Yamaha launch the Genos2 in 2023 ?
It is so quiet ... much too quiet.

Best wishes, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on November 19, 2022, 03:07:07 PM
Yamaha usually launch around October time, so it is far too early for any information yet.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on November 19, 2022, 05:33:30 PM
Thank you for your reply, Eileen.
I have to keep my Tyros4 for at least another year then.  :)

JH
 
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: hammer on November 19, 2022, 06:13:11 PM
I have owned the Ketron S7 keyboard, the Ketron SD90 module, and stll own
The Ketron SD40 module.  In the past I have owned Korgs, Rolands, ane
All the Yamaha arrangers starting with the
PSR3000, The T4, T5, and the Genos.  Believe
me when I tell you NOT ANY of those keyboards
even come close to producing the realistic instrument
sounds as do the Ketron products. 

Deane
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on November 19, 2022, 07:54:23 PM
Mmm.. very interesting, that's quite a statement @hammer  ;)

I'v never heard a ketron 'live', but will do once I get a chance to hear it by myself!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on November 19, 2022, 09:21:12 PM
Believe me when I tell you NOT ANY of those keyboards
even come close to producing the realistic instrument
sounds as do the Ketron products. 
Deane


I have never heard that before !!!  ::)

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on November 19, 2022, 10:10:31 PM
I have owned the Ketron S7 keyboard, the Ketron SD90 module, and stll own
The Ketron SD40 module.  In the past I have owned Korgs, Rolands, ane
All the Yamaha arrangers starting with the
PSR3000, The T4, T5, and the Genos.  Believe
me when I tell you NOT ANY of those keyboards
even come close to producing the realistic instrument
sounds as do the Ketron products. 

Deane
Pls. could you explain what did you miss in the Ketron as you bought e.g. all those yamaha's, even a Genos. Why didn't stick with tfhe Ketron sec. Maybe only for the soundquality etc. in those mudules? Or..?
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: hammer on November 19, 2022, 11:59:59 PM
Ok, I have been performing music professionally for 65 plus years and am now 82 and very happily retired.
As I got older some of the equipment was to heavy to carry out to 5-6 gigs a week and carry back into the house
so I moved on to something I thought  was lighter.  I still use my Ketron SD40 module and it is awesome!  I also
have a Yamaha PSR SX900.  I did not like the Genus because of it's weird shape.  One of the best arrangers I had
for gigs was a Korg MicroArranger but it broke and the cost of a repair was way more than it cost to buy one.
I still play 3-4 gigs each week and some days I use the SX900 and some the SD40.  I was blessed to play next
to some of the best players around in the big band days and like I said, Ketron by far has the best realistic sounds
for instruments. 
Now, this Is not to say all the others are not good arrangers because they are.  It all depends on what each player's
personal real life performance experience is and how there personal tastes swing.  None of the arrangers I purchased
sounded bad.

Hammer


Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rphillipchuk on November 20, 2022, 01:01:43 AM
Ok, I have been performing music professionally for 65 plus years and am now 82 and very happily retired.
As I got older some of the equipment was to heavy to carry out to 5-6 gigs a week and carry back into the house
so I moved on to something I thought  was lighter.  I still use my Ketron SD40 module and it is awesome!  I also
have a Yamaha PSR SX900.  I did not like the Genus because of it's weird shape.  One of the best arrangers I had
for gigs was a Korg MicroArranger but it broke and the cost of a repair was way more than it cost to buy one.
I still play 3-4 gigs each week and some days I use the SX900 and some the SD40.  I was blessed to play next
to some of the best players around in the big band days and like I said, Ketron by far has the best realistic sounds
for instruments. 
Now, this Is not to say all the others are not good arrangers because they are.  It all depends on what each player's
personal real life performance experience is and how there personal tastes swing.  None of the arrangers I purchased
sounded bad.

Hammer

I wish Ketron would give you an "Event" for a month or so and then have you give your thoughts on it......... You would be the perfect user to do this......
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on November 20, 2022, 07:09:21 AM
Hi Guys :

I think I understand Deane's words better now. ;)
Apparently it was/is much more a weight problem than a sound quality issue.

Based upon the present very short Ketron/Event video impressions I have seen/heard up to now, it is much too early to judge this new arranger, IMHO.
Hopefully during the first quarter of 2023 we might read the first endusers' reactions.

Ketron's global market share has never been important compared to Yamaha's and even Korg's, whatever the cause may be.
The Event's first sound quality looks to be OK but its price and specs have not convinced me to replace my TY4 by this new arranger.

Cheers, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on November 20, 2022, 08:29:31 AM
Thank you for your reply @hammer. Do you use the SX900 together with the SD40 module (in connection)? Or SX900 apart and the SD40 apart (with another keyboard?)?
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on November 20, 2022, 09:11:19 AM
As announced by Sokratis ( one of the Event's developers ), it is Ketron's intention to produce and sell ( in 2023 ? ) an Event module and a 61n light Event version.
The 61n version will have another brand name and might be available in 2024, said Sokratis.

The Event Module ( without keybed of course ! ) will have exactly the same Event's features.

In the past Ketron produced the Audya4 ( an Audya5 module ).   
The Audya4 has never been a commercial success in Belgium or in The Netherlands. No clew what the situation was in other countries.
The price difference between the Audya5 and the Audya4 was ( too ? ) small and musicians preferred the Audya5 ( with keybed ).

The Ketron history will repeat itself for the Event and its module, I guess.
As far as I know it ain't easy to sell a second hand expensive module. ???
JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on November 20, 2022, 11:17:32 AM
...Apparently it was/is much more a weight problem than a sound quality issue.
-what hammer is saying (the way I read his post) is: he sacrificed good sound for lighter SX900.

Quote
...Ketron's global market share has never been important compared to Yamaha's and even Korg's...
Market share tells nothing about quality -it only tells it's more affordable. As far I could observe, Yamaha practically doesn't exist in professional music scene (big live concerts). There, only Yamaha's synthesizers can be seen, but the rest of the keyboards are mostly Korg, Roland, Nord... or even Casio.

Ok, and now I will throw a "bomb" again: Yamaha arrangers only have mediocre sound quality because basically, nothing has changed much in past 20 years. All these "new" SA, SA2, Cool, Live, etc. voices are just artificially modified (tweaked, if you wish) voices from the past. That way we might only get impression of more realistic sound, but that's pretty much all. That is, I really hope Seattle orchestra doesn't sound as it does on Yamaha. Not to mention, that some voices don't sound even close to real instruments (i.e. tambourine is a plain joke -to name one).

Now someone might say, why I bough Yamaha if I think it's that bad? Well, "bad" and "good" are relative terms.. but my answer would be, I bough it, because it was affordable and it's more than good enough for me for having fun -however I don't fool myself by thinking it's "the best".
Support? If product is good, not much support is needed anyway. In that sense, waiting up to 3 months for simple on/off button isn't some great support by Yamaha either.

Just my view on this thread,
Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Duffy on November 20, 2022, 01:17:49 PM
Hi Guys :

I think I understand Deane's words better now. ;)
Apparently it was/is much more a weight problem than a sound quality issue.

Cheers, JH

Not so Jeff,
The weight became a problem but Deane clearly says that he prefers Ketron's voices to Yamaha's.
I have used a Solton (former name of Ketron) for well over 20 years and I now also use a Ketron MidJay Pro with my Yamaha Genos and,
Dependant on what I am playing, I often use the Ketron voices more often than the Genos ones.
Some Yamaha voices seem more artificial or contrived and too dependant on Touch and I believe that is what Deane feels too.
We are all different and hear things differently and different voices in each keyboard vary so much so, it's a case of buy and play what suits you personally.
There is really no best or worst
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on November 20, 2022, 02:13:01 PM
As announced by Sokratis ( one of the Event's developers ), it is Ketron's intention to produce and sell ( in 2023 ? ) an Event module and a 61n light Event version.
The 61n version will have another brand name and might be available in 2024, said Sokratis.

The Event Module ( without keybed of course ! ) will have exactly the same Event's features.

In the past Ketron produced the Audya4 ( an Audya5 module ).   
The Audya4 has never been a commercial success in Belgium or in The Netherlands. No clew what the situation was in other countries.
The price difference between the Audya5 and the Audya4 was ( too ? ) small and musicians preferred the Audya5 ( with keybed ).

The Ketron history will repeat itself for the Event and its module, I guess.
As far as I know it ain't easy to sell a second hand expensive module. ???
JH
Hello.. So..
Guys, in order to avoid any misunderstanding, I would like to make the following clarification: I don't remember saying the specific thing about Event 61 and that it may be called something else. I honestly don't remember. Basically, I don't usually talk about the company's plans since I am prohibited by the NDA that I have signed. So I would like to say the following: A) For the Event Module there is a plan (as Ketron is used to with all its models) but I can't say anything more. As for Event 61 there is nothing there for now. This will be decided by the company when and if it produces such a model.
Thank you and my apologies if I said something by mistake that may have confused you.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Bill on November 20, 2022, 10:19:28 PM
Hi Sokratis

The reason you can’t remember is that you never made the statement in the first place.

It’s about time people stopped making such remarks about what other people said when they themselves are just making it up.

I think you are owed a very sincere apology.

I don’t understand why people have to spend hours speculating- why don’t they just wait and see.

Regards
Bill
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: hammer on November 20, 2022, 11:17:12 PM
It is interesting how people "read into" other's post.  Yes, for me the weight of TOTL keyboards became a problem.  But there is another reason for my changes-PRICE!  Regardless of quality of build, sounds, and styles there is not an arranger made by any company that is worth $5000.00 to me.  There is a point at which it is just not worth it.  Someone mentioned a possibility of an EVENT Module.  Well, that would be awesome I am sure but at what price.   Right now I am perfectly happy and well served by my PSR SX900 and my Ketron SD40 Module and see no reason to upgrade at today's prices.  The bottom line is simple-does what you own provide the things you need for our gigs if you play out.  Or, are you happy with your homebased setup and does it do all you need from it. 

Deane (Hammer)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on November 20, 2022, 11:49:34 PM
I agree Bill.
 Sokratis did not make that statement. And I also think this type of thread dose not achieve anything. I understand it is nice for some to learn about competition so that if a member is interested, they can go to that particular forum and learn more. Keep going on about when things come out or who will bye one and what price it will be gets you no where.

   
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on November 21, 2022, 05:58:23 AM
It is interesting how people "read into" other's post.  Yes, for me the weight of TOTL keyboards became a problem.  But there is another reason for my changes-PRICE!  Regardless of quality of build, sounds, and styles there is not an arranger made by any company that is worth $5000.00 to me.  There is a point at which it is just not worth it.  Someone mentioned a possibility of an EVENT Module.  Well, that would be awesome I am sure but at what price.   Right now I am perfectly happy and well served by my PSR SX900 and my Ketron SD40 Module and see no reason to upgrade at today's prices.  The bottom line is simple-does what you own provide the things you need for our gigs if you play out.  Or, are you happy with your homebased setup and does it do all you need from it. 

Deane (Hammer)
Hi Dean, does this setup looks like you referring to (sx900 + sd40)?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YflRiACBhFw
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on November 21, 2022, 08:39:26 AM
Dear Sokratis :

Subject : Event 61n wrong information.

I feel very sorry and would like to offer my sincere apologies for mentioning your name, realizing now it were NOT your words.
It has never been my intention to hurt a real gentleman like you.

Best wishes, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Duffy on November 21, 2022, 09:19:00 AM
Dear Sokratis :

Subject : Event 61n wrong information.

I feel very sorry and would like to offer my sincere apologies for mentioning your name, realizing now it were NOT your words.
It has never been my intention to hurt a real gentleman like you.

Best wishes, JH

Hi Jeff,
It's probably more my fault than yours for speaking for Deane when I should have simply given my own view.
My apologies to both Deane and yourself.
We probably shouldn't get so excited about different makes of keyboards, especially when they haven't even appeared yet.
All the best,
Duffy
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on November 21, 2022, 12:43:29 PM
No problem!!.. No problem dear friends!! :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on November 21, 2022, 08:07:32 PM
Well to put the cat among the pigeons I have learn't that if i transitioned from the Genos to the Korg Pax 5, it would only cost me £1250 approximately.
Well you say that cannot be bad for a keyboard that is 5 years old for a trade in.

Is the Pax5 as good as the Genos in reality??

If Yamaha bring a new Genos out in two years time how much would the depreciation be by then!!!! :P
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on November 21, 2022, 08:46:00 PM
...If Yamaha bring a new Genos out in two years time how much would the depreciation be by then!!!! :P

There will always be "better" keyboard on horizon and so.. decisions, decisions  ::)

Genos vs new Pa5X... 5 years difference... well, besides looking great, I assume Korg also has put some "nice to have" candies into Pa5X. The only question is, how desperate are you to have them -it's a serious question only you can answer.
Don't get me wrong, I'm quite sure that next Genos (or whatever name) will also have a lot of them. But so far there's not even a rumor about it... and one can't really play on something that doesn't exist.
Being an SX700 owner, it would be easier for me to decide (if I would won on lottery) -right now, it would be Pa5X. But you already own TOTL keyboard and so there should be some very good reason why you need Pa5X. Ok, sometimes one need to invent a reason -is also valid  8)

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on November 21, 2022, 08:53:17 PM
Well, when you trade it in it will cost you money anyway. But everyone knows that. That was probably also when you bought the Genos. How much someone is willing to pay for it is a personal choice. In any case, the additional amount to be paid will continue to increase. Prices today will be different in a few months. Hard to predict. This is due to inflation, supply and demand and the global economy, etc. etc. It has become a relatively 'expensive' hobby for most who want to buy a top keyboard, but many (but fewer) are willing to do so ...
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on November 21, 2022, 09:22:05 PM
Hi
From my point of view i play at home and go through Cubase .
What does the Genos really offer and the Korg Pax 5 offer which makes one better than the other
For me the saxes shine more on the Genos and that is about it for me.
I would like to know what a Korg owner experiences are using a daw such as Cubase.
I like the idea of smooth transitions.
In reality are Korg sounds more advanced than the Genos?
Is there a decent editing program for the Korg like sounds and styles etc??
Do you get style flac in Cubase you have to keep clearing out to get a clean backing.
Also i would like to know what the gain is like when gain staging in Cubase.
I must admit i have seen lots of videos on the Korg and a lot of the comparison videos and are very different.
We all know some put more icing on a sounds for a demo than others and it is hard to get a true perspective.

The Ketron has not got any outlets here in UK , only a base at Milton Keynes and a Corner shop in Northampton which looks like a run down off Licence.
Korg also have a base in Milton Keynes and plenty of stockists.

If Yamaha does not come up with a new keyboard in the next two years then i may have a big think. :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on November 21, 2022, 09:33:06 PM
It's very disappointing (and I wrote it politely) that Yamaha, as owner of Cubase, has so far refused to make a flawless integration with its keyboards and I doubt it will be with the new one. It seems to me that if you want to keep using Cubase, you will benefit more with a Yamaha than with a Korg. I think if it turns out that Korg would work very well with Cubase, then Yamaha will build a barrier there. Cubase, on the other hand, can make very nice wave samples for use in the Ketron. All a bit contradictory, but that's trade.... ;)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 21, 2022, 09:51:13 PM
I've thought the same thing for a long time, Ton. Genos integration to Cubase is (to be polite) pathetic. When the Motif series first arrived, integration was possible only after listening to a one hour video on how to do it. Otherwise, you had to be a Yamaha software engineer to figure it out. This deficiency caused a ton (no pun intended) of flack to be fired at Yamaha. They responded by creating an app that configured everything for Motif users with the press of a button.

If more people complained about this serious lack of Cubase integration with the Genos, perhaps Yamaha would do something about it. I wouldn't hold your breath though. They still look upon the Genos as a living room keyboard, when in reality, it could be a full production tool.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on November 21, 2022, 10:56:20 PM
Hi

From looking around and and finding out things , it is best in my opinion to stick with the Genos.
There are no explanations on how you can do quick recordings using styles on the Korg. All they go on about is adding a midi file and making mp3's.
Everything is too sketchy.
Also i notice that the Genos has a more depthier drum sound, whether that is recordings given or a reality.
Yes it is nice to hear all about new keyboards but things just do not sound or sit right at the moment for me.
I love the quick record on the Genos and that does not exist on the Pax5.
The Genos does have an easier layout.


all the Best
John :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: soundphase on November 22, 2022, 07:28:12 AM
I've thought the same thing for a long time, Ton. Genos integration to Cubase is (to be polite) pathetic. When the Motif series first arrived, integration was possible only after listening to a one hour video on how to do it. Otherwise, you had to be a Yamaha software engineer to figure it out. This deficiency caused a ton (no pun intended) of flack to be fired at Yamaha. They responded by creating an app that configured everything for Motif users with the press of a button.

If more people complained about this serious lack of Cubase integration with the Genos, perhaps Yamaha would do something about it. I wouldn't hold your breath though. They still look upon the Genos as a living room keyboard, when in reality, it could be a full production tool.
Genos target market is "sit and play" players, very far from DAWs.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on November 22, 2022, 08:12:56 AM
Hi

I know it is 4900Euros
Here you have a friend comment from my country.

<<<At this price, the keyboard is a joke.
1GB for samplers?
As 1.5 are for extorting money from users, probably through the sound banks sold by them..
Then, in the digital age, is there no digital audio output?
not even at Output Analog, it doesn't say that they are balanced...
... not even at the entrances.
Even the Medeli AKX10, a Chinese product, has 256 polyphony.
1280 user sounds, means about 10 banks of 128, but with 1 GB of sample memory... if you can't combine the internal oscillators with the sampler ones, in 2 banks you've finished the sampler memory.
Ah, I was forgetting...
Now, in Genos, I have 38 packages of 128 users..
And I still have about 700-800mb free...

And 4 layers per user sound, again, it's a bad, amateurish joke.
On the Yamaha you have 32 stereo layers.

The sounds he boasts about are actually a kind of S.Articulation from Yamaha. Anyone who knows how the Saxophone sounds on the Genos, or other instruments with Articulation, what glissando, or other effects it has, understands what I'm saying.

2 simultaneous effects can be inserted as an insert on a style?
"1 Insert to Arranger chords, 1 Insert to Real Chord."
On Genos, I play all 8 tracks, you can even combine them.
Genos has 27 inset fx simultaneously. 27!!!

Genos is right, only Audio Style as drums, Ketron would also be bass.
They say it goes directly from the ssd (direct streaming), which would not load the sampler memory.
But also with Genos, Audio Style goes directly from usb or ssd.
I don't see anything written about sampler compatibility, not even with the old Ketron series.
What am I kidding?
On 2 Main out and 2 auxiliary (which from the description are actually 1 stereo)? But maybe I'm wrong and Aux 1 is a separate stereo output from Aux2.
Then we have L-R (Main), Ls-Rs (Aux1) and C-Sub (Aux2).
But if they are not balanced outputs, it's a shame of the sound, goodbye fidelity.

But what are the specifications, I would only understand a Ketron fan buying something like this, instead of a Genos.>>>

Regards
Hello.
Looking a bit through the previous comments I found yours as well.
I believe that there should always be an answer in a friendly atmosphere and respecting every point of view.
Βut because your friend wrote things that are not true, I would like to make some clarifications.
I think that when we want to say something we should know very well the truth about what is happening in whatever we are commenting on and not say things that are not true.
First, let me say that I have no intention (and I never did) to blame Genos because even today I still work with it since my main work from which I live is music in live performances (apart from development).
But since you contrasted the features of Genos, I feel I should say a few things.
So, let's take them in order and let me answer what your friend raised.

1) "At this price, the keyboard is a joke.
1GB for samplers?”


I think you might remember how much total Ram Genos started with.
Since I happen to have the Genos since the beginning of 2018, I would like to remind you that initially the Genos had 1.7 giga Ram and the price I bought it (in Greece) was around €4200.
Of course, you will tell me that Genos was released in 2017 (5 years ago) but it still had more Ram as well as being cheaper than Event. Yes.
And you'd be right. However, for better or for worse, the company has decided this thing for now, but I have to say that the Event has a total of 2.5 giga Ram.
So, just as Yamaha was able to essentially change the specifications and give 3 giga Ram with OS Version 2.0, just like Korg in the Pa4x with 3.0 Next, Ketron can do the same in the future since everyone now they work on a Linux platform which now gives the company's developers a lot of development possibilities that didn't exist before.
But here and after your friend talked about a funny keyboard at this price it forces me to say some things and honestly don't take it as me doing some kind of defamation, (on Genos) because I never did, and I never will.
Also as I said before I still work with Genos.
Of course, when I finish creating my own (personal) Pack for the Event, the Genos will be replaced by the Event.
But I will tell the truth and only the truth which is based in real facts.
Have you or your friend ever tried to create a custom multisample in Genos or any Yamaha Arranger?
You have no choice but to try because there is simply no other option than through the very tedious YEM which lacks too many critical features to be called (professional).
What I mean? That since Genos doesn't have the slightest onboard Sample edit feature, we are forced to work exclusively through YEM.
But, just a minute... Do we not have this feature (audio editing) in YEM either?
Unfortunately, no.
There is no possibility to edit or correct the samples either in YEM and so when there is even a sample error (I have had it) we should use a software editor as it is (Wavelab, SOUND FORGE etc.) as well as we also need a Sound Converter (personally I use SampleRobot6 and Awave Studio) and after making all the corrections we will have to re-export our sound (personally I create my sounds in Soundfont2 "SF2") and re-import to YEM.
And since there is no possibility to replace a multisample (SF2 in this case) in a Sound, I am forced to completely delete our old sound and make the sound from scratch, but all the settings of the sound (Envelope, Volume, LFO, Filter, etc.).
Then we should export (Full Pack or Quickly Pack and then import to Genos as Expansion Pack.
And all this for just a single sample that was wrong and keep in mind that there is much more than I did not tell you about this process.
How do you now fix the same problem in Event?
We simply open the onboard sampler, load the sound with the sample that was wrong and if it can be corrected onboard, for example if it wanted to normalize, correct looping, or even delete the specific sample, we do it directly (since there is an onboard full sample editor) and after correcting it press save.
If it is cannot corrected, and the specific sample must be replaced, then simply delete the specific sample, load the new one (corrected sample) and press Save. That’s all.
Now compare which of the two cases is considered more professional and correct.
 
2) "If you can't combine the internal oscillators with the sampler ones, in 2 banks you've finished the sampler memory".
Your friend probably has the wrong information. Of course, it is possible, and anyone can have any combinations they want.
 
3)"And 4 layers p er user sound, again, it's a bad, amateurish joke.
On the Yamaha you have 32 stereo layers."

Here first a clarification about Genos because your friend is probably saying it wrong again.
Genos has 8 Elements where in each separate Element we can have (theoretically) unlimited velocity layers.
I haven't had to take it to extremes, but I've tested through SF2 multisample which contained over 30 layers in one Element, and it worked without a problem.
Of course, we said that all this is theoretical because in practice it is almost impossible because there is also the limit of polyphony.
And we are only talking about one Element out of eight.
But things start to get (horribly difficult) when one tries to make a sound that will have multiple Elements.
So here again YEM lacks many useful functions to do the work easily and comfortably.
The main thing is that there are not even clear instructions in the YEM manual on how to carry out a (deeper) processing.
So, we must (guess).
As for "4 layers per user sound" here again your friend makes a mistake.
Because in the case of the Event it is mentioned individually for the multisample and not for the final Sound.
That is, we can create a multisample (onboard of course or if we want via import SF2) which will contain up to 4 Stereo Layers.
Therefore, in the Event's onboard VOICE EDIT, we have the possibility to have up to three stereo multisamples where we will finally get to have 12 Stereo Layers per sound.
Add also that the Event has on your right hand in each style a sound combination section like Genos's 4 OTS (ONE TOUCH SETTING), just as it is in all the other arrangers of all companies, but here the big difference is that it has two and not one (like all arrangers) separate independent Sounds sections.
That is, as in Genos where regardless of the four OTS of the style we can at any time choose a Preset or Custom Sound, here we have two independent sounds through which we can either have two separate combinations of sounds which also have a separate potentiometer or by simply choosing one sound to have linked (internally) another sound and to have two default combinations of sounds in parallel.
So, with this method we have reached 24 stereo layers per Sound.
Doesn't sound bad, does it?
And let's not forget that in Genos we don't have any onboard management of Layers (Elements) in contrast to Event where everything is done onboard giving us absolute control with great ease and above all without the need of any third-party program (YEM etc.) which of course some programs are not free, and we will have to pay for them.
 
4) "Genos has 27 insert fx simultaneously. 27!!!"
Indeed, Genos has 27 insert FX in total, but not all of them are available in one domain.
Eg Styles have 8 Insert FX: Insertion Effect 21–28: Style Parts (except the Audio Part of the Audio Style)
But ok. But tell me this:
Have you ever tried to open more than one insert fx in a Chanel of a Style?
If you haven't tried it, I'll tell you what happens.
If you want to open a second Insert (on the same channel) you simply open it without any Edit options beyond the first insert fx in the chain. And here, be careful.
I'm talking about the case where we want to open a second insert fx on the same channel.
This is a problem that existed from the very beginning in Genos and even though I and many other users have pointed it out to the company since 2018, nothing has been done to fix it.
On the other hand, the Event does have a limitation in this area. But. This Insert is essentially a Multi Effect which has in a single Effect an Fx chain which contains Overdrive, Compressor,
Chorus, Phaser, Flanger, Delay (stereo, or mono & Tap) and four parametric areas EQ.
Also, the difference here is that the same insert can be used in any other midi or audio channel of the style we want, unlike all other arrangers where the insert only opens in one channel.
Also, here we should say that there is the possibility to have a completely different setting of the Insert FX in each variation as also here (in the Event) everything is done directly from the mixer without having to be done necessarily through the Style Creator like Genos to have different settings (volume, send fx, drum kit mix) in each variation.
Also, in Genos there is another very bad feature: If for any reason the moment we play we make a change in the mix of the style then all the individual settings that have been made in the next variations (on the specific channel) cease to apply.

5) "The sounds he boasts about are actually a kind of S.Articulation from Yamaha. Anyone who knows h ow the Saxophone sounds on the Genos, or other instruments with Articulation, what glissando, or other effects it has, understand what I'm saying".
I don't think anyone at Ketron bragged about it. If you saw it somewhere you should point it out to me.
The truth here is one:
Yamaha should be proud because for the first time in the history of arrangers they introduced S.Articulation in the Tyros series and then Korg followed.
But Yamaha (and only Yamaha) still ignores the users, and despite the pleas never gave the possibility to the user to have their own custom S.Articulation unlike Korg which from day one on the Pa2xPro & Pa800 models and then on all the other models, as well as the Ketron from Audya, although it did not have special Articulation switches, however, there was the possibility via velocity, aftertouch, Pitch Bend, etc.
So here too Ketron has for the first time an Articulation Button which is also available to the user from day one in order to create and use their own S.Articulations.
 
6) "Genos is right, only Audio Style as drums, Ketron would also be bass".
And this is where your friend is wrong.
There is not only Audio Drums and Audio Bass but also Audio Chord, Live Audio Gtr, Long Audio Gtr (separate strum stereo guitar loops) and they are all audio combined naturally and with perfect synchronization with the additional Classic midi channels (1 midi Bass, 5 Midi Chords.
And to directly answer the next point you raised yes!!
They all play Real Time SSD Streaming without any problems neither when playing nor when changing styles even when playing non-stop.
Yamaha on the other hand has never fixed until today (despite emails we sent) the Audio Phraser through which the user can make their own Audio Styles which are basically just Audio Drums.
A small correction was made at some point, but again it was not corrected properly, with the result that to this day the Fills/Breaks still do not enter on time, so they are essentially useless.
All this in Event is possible for the user from the first day and does not need any additional program or complicated processing.
Just a copy/paste to a specific folder on the SSD of the Event with a specific name and they are ready to use. Everything!!
 
7)"I don't see anything written about sampler compatibility, not even with the old Ketron series".
Yes, you are right. This may have been an oversight and I have personally pointed this out to the company. But yes. There is compatibility (only in the styles) from all older Ketron models to date.
In essence, the Event (onboard again) when we load an older Ketron style, automatically converts to the new. KST style.
 
8 "On 2 Main out and 2 auxiliaries (which from the description are actually 1 stereo)? But maybe I'm wrong and Aux 1 is a separate stereo output from Aux2.
Then we have L-R (Main), Ls-Rs (Aux1) and C-Sub (Aux2)".
But if they are not balanced outputs, it's a shame of the sound, goodbye fidelity."

Yes, Aux1 and Aux2 are two more stereo pairs.
But now here we should know what we are talking about.
What does Balance Out have to do with fidelity?
Not to elaborate on what Balance means it would be good for your friend to look here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_audio
Also. Who told you Genos has Balance Out?
In the Specs nothing like this is mentioned and the picture of the wiring in the manual shows a TS Jack and not a TRS.
For the sake of truth, look at a related question that was asked here in the Forum.
https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php?topic=47412.0
So, Genos (just like Event) has UNBALANCED Out whenever and here we will use simple TS Jack and not TRS.
But I still don't understand where the problem is.
Personally, and knowing that Genos has UNBALANCED Out I bought the excellent D.I Box Radial JDI Stereo with which I am completely satisfied, and it is an extremely high-quality tool that uses the famous Jensen transformers where in combination with the excellent quality Mogami cables that I have, I have converted my badge to BALANCE and I am completely satisfied.
Trust me though. It didn't get better (fidelity).
But the quality of the audio signal got much better where there is no external ground interference or anything else that can be caused by wrong connections or problems created in some cases by unbalance connections.
Also, the Radial JDI D.I Box gives me that little something extra that (flatters) the signal. Nothing less and nothing more.
 
9) In the immediately preceding comment, you mention that there are no chord variations.
And here you are making a mistake.
There are 3 different chord variations: Maj, Min, 7th and even with the possibility of onboard full edit.
On the other hand, let's not talk about the essentially non-existent possibilities provided by Yamaha in this matter (chord variations) since the only way the user can create something like this is through third-party software which the user must pay for, as well as the use of a computer and especially good midi knowledge programming. I would call it disappointing especially for such a big company like Yamaha.
Ketron on the other hand in this area (chord variation) introduces to the Event an amazing innovation that puts things in a new fantastic and creative state.
And this innovation is called MULTICHORD. What is this.
So we thought of the following simple thing: Instead of having, for example, in all the Majors a midi sequence in each chord, let's have 12 different midi sequences as many as the notes chromatically in each octave following simple thinking: A musician for example a Pianist either when playing and accompanying an orchestra, or when playing alone (solo instrument) playing any rhythmic pattern, never repeats the exact same pattern on every different chord. That is, suppose we play and accompany a singer with a Piano following a 4/4 Ballad pattern. So, the pianist's playing is always somewhat different in everyone "Key chord". That is, otherwise, he will play or can play in CMaj, otherwise he will play or can play in DMaj, otherwise he will play or can play in Cm, and so on.
So, by thinking creatively we can create our own Multichord Midi Files with different chords in each Key Chord as many as we want and then you will really realize that we keep forgetting the concept of repetition. So: Maj 12 different midi fills, Min 12 different midi fills, Min7 12 different midi fills and so on. Of course, it is not necessary to write 12 midi files. If we don't want it, then we write what we want, and the system takes over the "translation"
In this way, the boring repetition ceases to exist since for each Key Chord we can have a different midi file.
The only limitation is our imagination.
But the most terrible thing here is that we don't need to program all this in one style. All we do is to program our midi files separately in a daw (Cubase etc.), (whatever we want) we export them to a folder with the appropriate names and we just copy/paste it to a special folder on the SSD of the Event.
From there, all we do is open them to any channel we want in a style where after we simply select it, it plays normally following the chords of the style as another integral part of the Style.
So, you can imagine that in relation to all audio channels that we can have midi Multichord on each midi channel what can it mean.
If you didn't understand I would like you to wait a little while until I make a video of it (a little later) and see it in action.
As well as saying that the company will have several ready-made MULTICHORDS ready to use.
This is what I wanted to say because I could not leave them unanswered.
So, think again if for all that it (the Event) offers and so much more that there is no reason for me to mention it is little even in relation to its price..
So, think again if for all that it (the Event) offers and so much more that there is no reason for me to mention.
Add to that the (from Covid-19 to today) the global problem that exists with the very expensive spare parts and parts that a company will need, put also the cost of fuel that at least in Europe there is a very serious problem with the consequence that there are negative effects on trade.
Thank you very much and I apologize for my huge post.

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Duffy on November 22, 2022, 08:20:19 AM
Genos target market is "sit and play" players, very far from DAWs.

Yes, it's obvious who Yamaha's target market is but shouldn't they remember that when setting the prices, rather than calling it a professional workstation and charging accordingly?
They are having it both ways and should decide whether it's a home player board, or a pro board.
Some real competition from Korg & Ketron might make them finally decide which market they are aiming at.
I believe that once the update comes for the new Korg, that the competition will be ready in that direction.

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on November 22, 2022, 09:23:08 AM
Hi @Sokratis1974, thanks for the detailed and carefully worded explanation. Excellent explanation (although it is technically too complicated for me ;-) ) based on facts. We should cherish such contributions. Thanks again!
P.S.  I don't see any 'attack' on the Yamaha (Genos, for example), you've worded that well.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 22, 2022, 12:53:34 PM
Genos target market is "sit and play" players, very far from DAWs.
Agreed however Yamaha includes several "hints" about recording to a DAW. There's even a few MIDI patch screens that are very poorly documented. The Genos is touted as a pro-level keyboard, which implies that recording to a DAW is possible. Yes, it is possible but very convoluted. If their target market is the home player, then remove all documentation about recording to a DAW. It's terribly misleading. If they want to include a section on recording to a DAW, then write the darn thing properly! Just because the target market is the home player doesn't mean the pro players don't exist. Yamaha needs to do it right or go home!

One more thing...the documentation for onboard MIDI recording "assumes" an advanced level of MIDI knowledge. It is not written to a novice or intermediate audience. Don't these people count or is MIDI recording just for the pro-level folks? This too needs to be cleaned up for a significant percentage of their target audience. Of course, some novice audiences will figure it out but a golden rule in technical writing is, "Never force your audience to fill in the blanks. Do not assume they know everything."

Edit 1
Steinberg or any of the other DAW manufacturers are just as much to blame. They assume everyone uses a simple MIDI controller that triggers VST instruments. They need to include a chapter on how to record arranger keyboards and use the top level arrangers as examples - even a patch file that pre-configures the DAW for the Genos or whatever arranger you're using. Heck, there aren't that many.

Edit 2
I know it's been mentioned that the easiest way to record to a DAW is to just record everything in the Genos MIDI section, upload that file to Cubase, and then unpack the tracks. This works, however, assigning Genos voices to those individual tracks is very confusing and often doesn't work. Sometimes you have to reload Cubase or restart the Genos because the drum snares were triggering the piano!! We need clear, well written documentation and there is none.

Sorry for wandering way off track!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on November 22, 2022, 02:18:34 PM
recognizable @Lee. Those who work with DAWs and MIDI know that it's not for Dummies, but requires long-term in-depth study to understand and apply it. That is why very few will venture into it and that also makes it very unattractive for a producer to invest a lot in it? How attractive would it be to the consumer if Yamaha came up with a 'Cubase module' that connects flawlessly to that keyboard (eg an Yamaha-equivalent of the Ketron modules??) (sorry @Sokrat1s1974 ;))?

Oh man, reading my own post: Yamaha has bought Cubase, now it is going to buy Ketron??? ;D ;D
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Toril S on November 22, 2022, 11:23:52 PM
Yes, first we take Manhattan.... :) :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on November 22, 2022, 11:51:54 PM
Yamaha have owned Cubase for a while now.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 23, 2022, 12:02:46 AM
Yamaha have owned Cubase for a while now.
True, Eileen and yet they offer no easy to use instructions on how to integrate one of their best products into Cubase. What would it take? A half a day of engineering time and maybe two pages of instructions??? Give me a break!!!!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rphillipchuk on November 23, 2022, 02:01:28 AM
So true Lee !!   
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on November 23, 2022, 10:40:08 AM
Hi

I like one comment when one guy was demonstrating disco music on the ketron


" So the keyboard plays itself " ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
What else can it do?????
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on November 23, 2022, 11:06:04 AM
Agreed however Yamaha includes several "hints" about recording to a DAW. There's even a few MIDI patch screens that are very poorly documented. The Genos is touted as a pro-level keyboard, which implies that recording to a DAW is possible. Yes, it is possible but very convoluted. If their target market is the home player, then remove all documentation about recording to a DAW. It's terribly misleading. If they want to include a section on recording to a DAW, then write the darn thing properly! Just because the target market is the home player doesn't mean the pro players don't exist. Yamaha needs to do it right or go home!

One more thing...the documentation for onboard MIDI recording "assumes" an advanced level of MIDI knowledge. It is not written to a novice or intermediate audience. Don't these people count or is MIDI recording just for the pro-level folks? This too needs to be cleaned up for a significant percentage of their target audience. Of course, some novice audiences will figure it out but a golden rule in technical writing is, "Never force your audience to fill in the blanks. Do not assume they know everything."

Edit 1
Steinberg or any of the other DAW manufacturers are just as much to blame. They assume everyone uses a simple MIDI controller that triggers VST instruments. They need to include a chapter on how to record arranger keyboards and use the top level arrangers as examples - even a patch file that pre-configures the DAW for the Genos or whatever arranger you're using. Heck, there aren't that many.

Edit 2
I know it's been mentioned that the easiest way to record to a DAW is to just record everything in the Genos MIDI section, upload that file to Cubase, and then unpack the tracks. This works, however, assigning Genos voices to those individual tracks is very confusing and often doesn't work. Sometimes you have to reload Cubase or restart the Genos because the drum snares were triggering the piano!! We need clear, well written documentation and there is none.

Sorry for wandering way off track!

Hi Lee
Record your song in Genos Sequencer.
Import into Cubase.
Set the inspector up In and outs  (make sure Genos information is selected in Studio manager)

EDIT ALL TRACKS TO TIGHTEN AND SPLIT THE DRUM TRACKS TO SEPARATE TRACKS.

Record all tracks.

If you make program changes when playing and recording song on Genos  it shows on the imported tracks in Cubase.
What i do is then cut the instrument changes on Track one to three,  which is right 1,2 and 3  and put the different instruments sections on different tracks.
Once all done and named and coloured  gain stage in mixer and then you are on your way.
When i set the inspector up for each track i have had No Input and Yamaha Genos  workstation 1
 Now i can have All Midi and Yamaha Genos workstation. I do not know whether there is really any difference in that now.
Before if i had all midi over the Genos workstation in the inspector i would get bells and whistles if i stopped and started in the middle of editing  Now i do not get that.
Steinberg seem to have improved the midi section. Up to now the mid notes are staying on grid , as they kept creeping forward before last update. That was annoying when you come back to a song for editing at a later stage.
Main thing today is have a good fast computer.


All the best
john         
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on November 23, 2022, 11:15:37 AM
Hi

I like one comment when one guy was demonstrating disco music on the ketron


" So the keyboard plays itself " ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
What else can it do?????
Theoretically, an airplane can go the route we want on its own, but if there is no pilot to chart a course and be in control, nothing happens.. That's the only thing that's certain. ;) ;D
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on November 23, 2022, 11:43:53 AM
Hi :

If one has the intention to buy a new high end arranger keyboard in 2023 ( like me e.g. ), it will not be easy now to make the right choice.
 
All three arrangers ( Pa5X, Event and the Genos2 ) are all different and professional arranger keyboards, having their pros and cons, as usual, IMO.
I have learned here not to be biased and ... I can only buy one.  ;)

My dealer agreed I can play and try all of them intensely as long as I need to before making any decision.
All seem to be very good instruments and almost equally priced.
A big challenge for me. All are expensive toys though.  :)

Best regards, JH

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on November 23, 2022, 12:13:27 PM
Well Jeff,
  I think a lot of people will stick with what they know as many do not want to spend lots of time learning a new operating system. They want to get back playing on their Yamaha's as they know they will always be reliable and do what they are used to.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 23, 2022, 12:28:10 PM
Hi Lee
Record your song in Genos Sequencer.
Import into Cubase.
Set the inspector up In and outs  (make sure Genos information is selected in Studio manager)
EDIT ALL TRACKS TO TIGHTEN AND SPLIT THE DRUM TRACKS TO SEPARATE TRACKS.
Record all tracks.
If you make program changes when playing and recording song on Genos  it shows on the imported tracks in Cubase.
What i do is then cut the instrument changes on Track one to three,  which is right 1,2 and 3  and put the different instruments sections on different tracks.
Once all done and named and colored  gain stage in mixer and then you are on your way.
When i set the inspector up for each track i have had No Input and Yamaha Genos  workstation 1
 Now i can have All Midi and Yamaha Genos workstation. I do not know whether there is really any difference in that now.
Before if i had all midi over the Genos workstation in the inspector i would get bells and whistles if i stopped and started in the middle of editing  Now i do not get that.
Steinberg seem to have improved the midi section. Up to now the mid notes are staying on grid , as they kept creeping forward before last update. That was annoying when you come back to a song for editing at a later stage.
Main thing today is have a good fast computer.
Thanks for that explanation, John. Computing power is not an issue for me. If and when I get my registration issue worked out, I may take a deep dive back into recording 😉!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on November 23, 2022, 01:25:28 PM
You made a very good and logical point, Eileen : a new operating system might be an important issue.

I am used to work with Windows and Mac e.g. ( My desk computer = Windows, my laptop and ipad = Mac ).
Two different operating systems.
Both systems have their advantages and disadvantanges, depending on the user's needs and applications.

As far as I remember this is the first time in the arranger history 3 different manufactures are launching high end arrangers, almost simultaneously ( assuming the Genos2 will be available for sale in 2023 ).

I agree with you Yamaha's arrangers are very reliable instruments.
My Tyros4 e.g., never let me down. :)

But now it might be the right moment to compare all arrangers intensely despite their differences.

All the best, JH




Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Gunnar Jonny on November 23, 2022, 01:55:07 PM

If one has the intention to buy a new high end arranger keyboard in 2023 ( like me e.g. ), it will not be easy now to make the right choice.


The right choice will always be to choose the model that suits your personal needs and taste. The 3 top of the line brands and models are in fact all good stuff. 👍
Well, at least as long as it don't feel like cheep plastic fantastic made in China when try to handle and move it..... 😲😁😁😁

I've written to 🤶🎅and told them where to drop both PA5X-76 and Event when they take the World Trip this year. The chimney top is at GPS position xxNxxExxSxxW. 😉
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: J. Larry on November 23, 2022, 04:57:17 PM
So much has been posted about the apparent “cheapened” appearance and feel of recent Yamaha arrangers.  Several year ago, I took a tour of the Peavey instrument plant.  They showed me, among other things, the tall scaffold, where they dropped new amps to the concrete below to see what damaged ensued.  Wonder is Yamaha would do such a thing with the Genos?
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 23, 2022, 05:32:13 PM
Not likely, Larry. I have seen keyboards get knocked off stands by idiotic drunks. I've also seen cheaper keyboard stands fail, resulting in a $4,000 synth or arranger on the floor. I would think Yamaha may conduct similar experiments. If they did with the Genos, I suspect it probably held up but had a few marks and dings.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on November 23, 2022, 09:35:16 PM
Hi
I suggest for  Jeff to get the Yamaha Mini Genos and The Ketron expander when it comes out.
Great idea for Genos owners is to get the Ketron Expander and have the best of both worlds.
Just an idea :) Not a bad one at that.!! :P
Just to upset the apple cart!!! ;D ;D

Anyone for a Bontempi?? 8)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on November 23, 2022, 10:03:27 PM
Hi John :

Are you going to buy the Ketron Event Module ? 😀
JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on November 24, 2022, 05:14:53 PM
Are you going to buy one Jeff.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: travlin-easy on November 24, 2022, 07:24:52 PM
I've been a musical entertainer since I was 17 years old and had to retire at age 78 because of health issues. I have owned a dozen guitars, and an equal number of arranger keyboards. I played the Ketron at the piano store where DanO worked several years ago, and to me, it always sounded thin in comparison to the Roland, Korg and Yamaha arrangers. The drums were loud, harsh, and somewhat realistic, especially when I remember the days of performing with a 5-piece band and the drummer slammed those rim shots so hard he would break at least one drum stick every night we played.

The best grand piano sound I heard came from Roland, while the absolute best guitar and sax sounds came from Yamaha - NO DOUBT ABOUT IT! Don Mason, who unfortunately passed last year, agreed with me on the voices. Additionally, he and I agreed that dead time between songs should not be more than 2 or 3 seconds at most, otherwise you would quickly watch your dancing crowd head for the seats. With the Yamaha, using features such as registrations and the Music Finder Directory, I was able to keep my dead time down to under a second. I don't believe you can do this with any Ketron product I seen in the past decade.

As for weight, again, I'll stick with Yamaha. I posted a video on You Tube a few years ago of me setting up  for an assisted living facility job. Setup time was just under 7 minutes, and the heaviest piece of equipment was my Yamaha PSR-S-950 - just 23 pounds. For amps, I switched to Bose L1 Compacts and never looked back - they were fantastic!

Good luck,

Gary 8)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on November 24, 2022, 09:18:19 PM
John was joking and so was I, Eileen. ;)

Due to my age ( 75 ) and my health issues I cannot answer your question now, sorry.

Time will tell whether or not I ever will upgrade.

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on November 25, 2022, 12:15:14 PM
Yes Jeff I saw John's reference to Bontempi. I will be 87 next year but I am still looking forward to a New Genos.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on November 25, 2022, 01:17:45 PM
Hey Eileen :

I am so glad to hear ( for you and all of us ) you are still in a very good physical and mental condition at 86 ! Wonderful ! :)

I had a cerebral infarction in December 2020. A lot of habits have been changed in my daily normal life.
I do not know whether a new arranger keyboard is still intended for me. Who knows ?

Best wishes, JH


   
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on November 25, 2022, 02:06:59 PM
...
I do not know whether a new arranger keyboard is still intended for me. Who knows ?
I would say, as long you wish one, it is intended. But does it make sense?.. well, who cares  ;)

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: usaraiya on November 26, 2022, 12:06:08 AM
...
I do not know whether a new arranger keyboard is still intended for me. Who knows?

Best wishes, JH


 

Jeff,
If the KB is available and you want it, I would say, "Go for it," because if you don't, someone else will!

 :)
Uday
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rphillipchuk on November 26, 2022, 02:11:44 AM
I will be pulling the plug on the Ketron "Event" as soon as I am able to purchase from Long & McQuades .   

RonP
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on November 26, 2022, 10:26:24 AM
Stay with Eileen
Wait for the next Genos!!
Travlin Easy is 100% right in saying that the Genos Saxes and guitars outweigh every other keyboard.
As much as i like to like the Korg Pax5 something about it that it does not live up to the Genos Standard.
The Ketron  sounds great but have only seen You Tube video's.
Nothing much about it from stores in the UK and how compatible it is with midi and daws.
The more you delve into the Genos , the more you will find.
At the moment i have a forward slash missing on the start button and the 1 and 2 registration buttons are thnner looking than the rest of the numbers , other than that it still looks brand new.
Genos integrates well for me with Cubase now and i cannot fault it.



All the Best
John :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on November 27, 2022, 01:03:19 AM
Theoretically, an airplane can go the route we want on its own, but if there is no pilot to chart a course and be in control, nothing happens.. That's the only thing that's certain. ;) ;D


What about an Irish pilot???? ;D ;D
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Oxford1035 on November 27, 2022, 03:35:18 AM

What about an Irish pilot???? ;D ;D

I think you’ll find they fly Air Fungus John ;)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on November 27, 2022, 10:25:17 AM
Hi Oxford

I bet we have confused our overseas friends ;D
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: tyrosman on November 27, 2022, 01:48:48 PM
Hi Oxford

I bet we have confused our overseas friends ;D
i think we might have John :) Genos throwe,s every thing out the window Yamaha is Better by Far
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: usaraiya on December 01, 2022, 01:02:58 PM
Here are some more official details about the EVENT:

https://www.ajamsonic.com/ketronevent.htm

 :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Henni on December 01, 2022, 07:09:42 PM
KETRON EVENT VS YAMAHA GENOS V.2


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrWokTi2gCM
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on December 01, 2022, 08:29:06 PM
KETRON EVENT VS YAMAHA GENOS V.2
-such comparisons are totally useless (and deceiving at that):
1st Why?
We can get all that data from specifications.
2nd Why?
Number of styles (for example) means nothing. What I'm interested on is, the quality of the styles, how many actually different there are, and how flexible (for editing) they are.

I realized, that many romanian youtubers provide (comparison) videos without commenting -is just a waste of time watching.

Just my opinion,
Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: maartenb on December 02, 2022, 10:48:35 AM
+1

Totally useless YouTube video, Henni. Specs only, no playing. Waste of time.

Next time you place a link to a video, please include a small summary of the video.


Maarten
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: maartenb on December 02, 2022, 10:52:28 AM
I bet we have confused our overseas friends ;D

And your continental friends as well.  ;D


Maarten
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on December 02, 2022, 11:58:36 AM
-such comparisons are totally useless (and deceiving at that):
1st Why?
We can get all that data from specifications.
2nd Why?
Number of styles (for example) means nothing. What I'm interested on is, the quality of the styles, how many actually different there are, and how flexible (for editing) they are.

I realized, that many romanian youtubers provide (comparison) videos without commenting -is just a waste of time watching.

Just my opinion,
Bogdan
You are right.
These comparisons cannot be objective because to be one would have to have experience with both instruments to draw a conclusion.
So, as you may know, I have here in my studio both the Genos and the Event (since the beginning of last August) after I worked for more than a year on it (the Event).
I also had the opportunity to compare the Pa5x with the Event and with the Genos since I had it in my studio for a month. But that is another discussion.
I'm taking this opportunity to voice an opinion now that the Event is almost out on the market.

Points in which Genos excels are, in my opinion, these:
1) Larger screen 9 inches compared to 7 inches of the Event.

2) 3GB RAM vs Event's 1GB RAM

3) Larger illuminated switches which require somewhat less pressure than the Event.

4) Super Articulations (of course only factory) 3 switches vs one of the Event but in the Event, it is also a User Articulation and not only a factory.

5) There are no serious limitations regarding samples, multisamples, velocity layers, etc.
-------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------
Points in which the Event excels (always in my opinion but also through the direct comparison since I have both models).

1) Incredible creativity with almost no midi programming knowledge required.
Through Style Modeling (more on this later) and combining Audio and Midi Loops we build a style exactly as we want and without the slightest need to edit.
We simply choose in each variation what we want it to contain, with the possibility in each different variation to have completely different options (in everything), even in the mix, fx, etc.
Unfortunately, in the area of creativity if I had to rate Genos then with an excellent 10, I would put a 3 and maybe even that was too much.

2) No kind of processing (Time Sliced, etc.) is required to import user audio data (Real Drum, Real Bass, Real Chord), since all that is needed is to copy them to a specific point on the SSD with a specific name and folder per audio files.
The same applies to midi files.
Just copy/paste (also here) in a specific folder and now they will be available in every style.

3) Onboard Sampler with full editor and creation of new sound or Drum kit.

4) Multichord.
An innovation by Ketron (where I have also taken part in the implementation of this patent) with the possibility of having up to 12 different midi files per musical scale (Maj, Min, M7, min7 etc.) and not just 1 midi file per different scale.

5) Hardware EFX Control.
Another innovation that we meet at the Event (where we meet here for the first time in an Arranger Keyboard) are the external control switches of the EFX. So, in Real Time we can, in addition to activating an EFX or to change the live EFX algorithm, also have control over e.g. the Delay time, the length of the Reverb, or the Brilliance of the sound we are playing at that moment. Without complicated procedures, or other tedious software procedures which are usually deterrent in a live performance we just choose EFX and have the control in Real Time.

Now to the question of which one sounds better?
There is no specific answer here.
Both (Genos & Event) sound equally great!!
If you ask me which of the two, do I prefer?
Unfortunately, I don't have an answer here either because there is something different from that I love.
Surely a combination of both instruments in a live would be something exciting!!
I look forward to trying them both together as soon as possible (in a live performance).
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Henni on December 02, 2022, 12:16:57 PM
+1

Totally useless YouTube video, Henni. Specs only, no playing. Waste of time.

Next time you place a link to a video, please include a small summary of the video.


Maarten

Unfortunately not much is available on the Event for now. I am seriously searching the net for more info, demos etc. & really there is very little to be found. I am merely posting the bits & drabs that I DO find however.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on December 02, 2022, 01:34:20 PM
Hey Sokratis  :

Thank you for your very interesting information. :)

BTW, is the English Event Manual already available on the internet ?

Plse advise.
Thanks and best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on December 02, 2022, 01:44:23 PM
Hey Sokratis  :

Thank you for your very interesting information. :)

BTW, is the English Event manual already available on the internet ?

Plse advise.
Thanks and best regards, JH
Unfortunately not yet.
But I think it's a matter of days until the company upload it on the site them.
Οnly one poster has been uploaded
https://www.ketron.it/images/ketron/Event/KETRON%20EVENT%20INGLESE.pdf
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rphillipchuk on December 02, 2022, 05:50:41 PM

Incredible creativity with almost no midi programming knowledge required.

Through Style Modeling (more on this later) and combining Audio and Midi Loops we build a style exactly as we want and without the slightest need to edit.

We simply choose in each variation what we want it to contain, with the possibility in each different variation to have completely different options (in everything), even in the mix, fx, etc.


I think that this is extremely important because the term "Style Modeling" is so vague. But if I can just "copy & Paste" ( think simple ) to change the style a style , is exactly what I am looking for.

It all comes down to the number of options available.

As an extreme example, if I select a "Pop" style, can I change all the elements to a "Country" style just by copy & paste ? 

If so, is this done in real time ?  While the style is playing, am I able to hear the changes immediately ?

RonP
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on December 03, 2022, 05:23:52 AM
I think that this is extremely important because the term "Style Modeling" is so vague. But if I can just "copy & Paste" ( think simple ) to change the style a style , is exactly what I am looking for.

It all comes down to the number of options available.

As an extreme example, if I select a "Pop" style, can I change all the elements to a "Country" style just by copy & paste ? 

If so, is this done in real time ?  While the style is playing, am I able to hear the changes immediately ?

RonP
No.
Copy & paste refers to the new user elements we add to the Modeling library palette, and these can be either Real Drum (audio), Real Bass (audio), Real Chord (audio) and any midi file we want if it is one channel and which contain our own rhythmic patterns from Piano, El. Pianos, Guitars, Pad, Strings, Synth Arpeggio’s, and anything else we want.
After that in each variation and in each channel to activate them, we simply open the preset or user Modeling library and, in each channel, we add or change elements to essentially assemble a new style.
Of course, there is a huge preset Modeling palette very well programmed that frankly a user will rarely need anything beyond them unless they live in countries like Greece, Turkey, Balkan, or Arab countries where they will have to create their own separate palette for some style.
However, beyond all this, one can add or configure anything they want with the Classic midi programming either onboard or through a computer.
As for your question if these can be done in Real Time while playing in some style the answer is a clear YES!!
But in order not to confuse you more I would like you to wait a bit and I have promised you a special video for this excellent element!
Thanks!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Duffy on December 03, 2022, 08:32:04 AM
Thanks for that Sokratis.
The event is sounding better and better to me and I appreciate any info you pass on. I realise that their is a limit to what you can tell us.
The COPY & Paste feature is one of the things which the Genos has been so badly needing and sounds similar to the Technics KN7000 version plus  a big modelling palette too.
A big selling point for Ketron

The main problem for Ketron now is going to be their lack of dealerships.
I have bought Solton / Ketron for years but their is no way to part exchange your instrument if their is no proper dealers and showrooms.
I have wanted to upgrade for some time but they will not do part exchange and I don't want the hassle of private selling to get rid of the things I have.
I just wish all these companies would take a bit more notice of what their customers tell them.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on December 03, 2022, 11:39:02 AM
On Genos we do have the style assembly function and is very easy and quick to use.
Taking parts from other styles and creating your own choices is fun. Then also you have the grove Function which gives a different feel to a style.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on December 03, 2022, 12:17:07 PM
On Genos we do have the style assembly function and is very easy and quick to use.
Taking parts from other styles and creating your own choices is fun. Then also you have the grove Function which gives a different feel to a style.
Yes you are right.
However the Style Modeling of Ketron is much more different and much more creativity and of course don't need any Style Creator like Yamaha.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on December 03, 2022, 12:32:36 PM
On Genos we do have the style assembly function and is very easy and quick to use.
Taking parts from other styles and creating your own choices is fun. Then also you have the grove Function which gives a different feel to a style.
Of course Yamaha has a 'style assembly' function, but it makes little sense to mention it, without being able to compare it 1:1 with the Ketron Event. That will probably be possible in the short term? Only then can you properly judge which works best, most creatively and easiest. I don't find the style-assembly function of Yamaha very fascinating. You have to search a lot if you want to find something suitable and then ... nah  ;)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on December 03, 2022, 03:37:59 PM
Ok.
I made you an audio clip (no video yet) so you can get a taste of what Ketron Style Modeling is all about.
Here I am working on a single variation and believe me this is a great surface sample to understand how deep the system is.
Here I make changes mainly to audio elements (Drums, Bass, Guitars).
Keep in mind that I am only working on one variation. Imagine that in each of them (the variations) there is the option for completely different options, mix etc.
But there are so many thousands of options that I could describe it to you for many days.
From 0:21 the changes start. At the end of the 5:24 clip you heard the original style again where I started.
It goes without saying that everything happens in Real Time.

https://app.box.com/s/2k05ujfetfek4raxrsl2m1067tb47ew8
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Duffy on December 03, 2022, 04:47:44 PM
Of course Yamaha has a 'style assembly' function, but it makes little sense to mention it, without being able to compare it 1:1 with the Ketron Event. That will probably be possible in the short term? Only then can you properly judge which works best, most creatively and easiest. I don't find the style-assembly function of Yamaha very fascinating. You have to search a lot if you want to find something suitable and then ... nah  ;)

I see you have or have had in the past, a Technics KN7000.
If you have used it in depth, you will know that the Yamaha Style assembly function doesn't go anywhere near as deep as the Technics system did and it's also far harder to use.
As I also own a Ketron instrument, I can tell you that Ketron's system is also far quicker and far easier to use than Yamaha's Style assembly function.
The Genos is a good keyboard but, Style assembly is laughable along with the sound glitch when changing memories.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on December 03, 2022, 08:14:37 PM
Yes @Duffy, that's what I meant with '..Nah', so we agree  ;)

Ehh, kind of wow, @Sokratis1974  :), thanks
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on December 08, 2022, 01:24:56 AM
Here is a just-released YouTube video (in Italiano) of the Ketron Event. He purchased a Ketron Event recently and he goes on to basically explain the ins and outs of the keyboard in his lengthy 2+ hour video. The link I will post will be at the time when he starts playing the Event but I actually listened from the beginning but skipped ahead at various points. As I said it's in Italian but I was able to translate it to English using Google's translate 'transcribe' feature. I have an Android Moto One 5G Ace with Android 11 OS. There is no closed captioning for the video so I resorted to using my cell phone. The translation came out pretty good but your mileage may vary depending on your phone and what operating system you have. Apple Siri might work also if you have an iPhone if, in fact, you're interested in hearing what he's talking about if you don't speak Italiano. Without further ado...

https://youtu.be/W9COE0QFkjU?t=2954

All the best,
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on December 08, 2022, 05:06:23 AM
Here is a just-released YouTube video (in Italiano) of the Ketron Event. He purchased a Ketron Event recently and he goes on to basically explain the ins and outs of the keyboard in his lengthy 2+ hour video. The link I will post will be at the time when he starts playing the Event but I actually listened from the beginning but skipped ahead at various points. As I said it's in Italian but I was able to translate it to English using Google's translate 'transcribe' feature. I have an Android Moto One 5G Ace with Android 11 OS. There is no closed captioning for the video so I resorted to using my cell phone. The translation came out pretty good but your mileage may vary depending on your phone and what operating system you have. Apple Siri might work also if you have an iPhone if, in fact, you're interested in hearing what he's talking about if you don't speak Italiano. Without further ado...

https://youtu.be/W9COE0QFkjU?t=2954

All the best,
Mike
Dear Mike.
This is Mattia Rigoni (Nico) who is an external partner of Ketron (like me) and therefore already has the Event (like me).
The instrument has not yet gone into mass production.
Only a few have been released which will be in some stores as a demo.
However, listening to it we can get a taste.
Later I will also prepare several demos and tutorials.
I haven't got them ready yet due to some technical issues of my own. But these will also be resolved soon.
Thanks
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on December 08, 2022, 02:42:25 PM
From what I can take from this it seems their style assembly function is streets ahead of the Yamaha, because you can make changes in real time while playing the full chord progression. Yamaha requires you to leave playing mode enter style creator mode, make changes, then return to hear how it might really sound with an actual song.
I imagine that this might not be a simple improvement for Yamaha to emulate, requiring  big changes to the overall system, possible patent minefields, etc.
But of course it also begs the question of how much this will matter to the average arranger buyer, who might never mess with style changes, and who has access to a massive library of Yamaha styles, and custom styles on the internet.
But to others who love to make their own style changes it might be a huge improvement.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on December 08, 2022, 04:22:28 PM
https://youtu.be/W9COE0QFkjU?t=2954

Wished this video was made in the English language. I do not speak Italian, a very nice language though. ;)

Best wishes, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on December 08, 2022, 05:12:22 PM
...
But of course it also begs the question of how much this will matter to the average arranger buyer, who might never mess with style changes, and who has access to a massive library of Yamaha styles, and custom styles on the internet.
...
As you mentioned, style creation can be quite confusing on Yamaha, and I think, that's also partially the reason why some don't "mess" with that.
However, I do agree that for many, basic editing (changing voices, tempo, etc.) is more than enough. And if that's the case, then existing collection of Yamaha styles is a hold back for many (and keeps them/us loyal to Yamaha). But I think, we quite limit ourselves by thinking that way. The thing is, other (brand) keyboards also have styles built-in: slow waltz, nice cha-cha, rock beat, mellow country, etc. etc -they all have them!
What I think many see as a benefit by owning Yamaha keyboard, is a fact that a lot of styles (packs) are available for free. But there's an old saying: everything is worth exactly as much we pay for that.

About Ketron Event... it looks really nice (one can't beat Italian design), but that's pretty much all. From users perspective, we actually know nothing about it. Yes, it sounds "nice", but so does PSR-SX if we pick the right voice for the melody.

Just sharing my thoughts,
Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on December 09, 2022, 10:50:59 AM
Hey Sokratis1974 :

My dealer said today the Event's exact date of delivery ( promised for December 2022 ) is unknown yet.

BTW, is there a big difference ( sounds, styles, features, etc. ) between the Audya5 and the Event or ... can one call it a " usual " upgrade ?
Your reply would be very much appreciated. Thanks ! :)

Best wishes, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on December 10, 2022, 05:07:41 AM
Hey Sokratis1974 :

My dealer said today the Event's exact date of delivery ( promised for December 2022 ) is unknown yet.

BTW, is there a big difference ( sounds, styles, features, etc. ) between the Audya5 and the Event or ... can one call it a " usual " upgrade ?
Your reply would be very much appreciated. Thanks ! :)

Best wishes, JH
Of course.
As you may know I also own Audya (Audya 76 & Audya 5) and have worked with it since 2009 Of course and played with it from 2009 until 2018 when I bought the Genos.
Audya was and is my favorite instrument and I still have them (both) and they work great!
The reason I went to Genos was when I first saw that we could make user audio styles (via Audio Phraser which never worked properly) and the truth is that I always wanted to have a Yamaha arranger but that's another discussion
But let me answer your question.
So, the big difference between Audya and Event is not so much the sounds and styles but the fact that Event is much more (open) to user development to a truly amazing degree.
In other words, it provides so many amazing and unique functions especially in terms of styles that literally no midi programming knowledge is required to create a user style for your needs.
And I think that initially what one is interested in an arranger is the styles in function of course and having good sounds so that they (the sounds) work positively in the whole listening.
So, Ketron since the time of the excellent SD1 (I had that too and worked for almost a decade from 2000 to 2009) has always had very simple but very good sounds that one almost never needs anything more to play and sound great a Grand Piano, an Electric Piano (really very good) a Trumpet a Strings or whatever.
One is not going to find complex and elaborately designed sounds in Ketron, as is the case with Korg and Yamaha in many cases.
Of course, this is not a bad thing (the complex and elaborately designed sounds) because what interests the user is that these sounds perform as they should so that the musician can express himself comfortably through them.
So also here in the Event one will find very simple, but also in some cases intelligently designed sounds and really what impresses me in the Event are the really amazing ORGAN sounds where there is combination  of a very deep DIGITAL DRAWBAR and Sampled Organ of Real Organs (Hammond etc.) where the results are really amazing, although I am not an expert in ORGANS, but still I can have an opinion since I have instruments from all companies.
The question now is whether it is worth the upgrade from Audya to Event? Yes, it's worth it.
If someone had asked me a few years ago if it was worth upgrading from Audya to SD9 I would have clearly said NO.
The SD9/90/60 was never a worthy Audya replacement, and I never went ahead with the upgrade.
I had the SD9 in my studio for several months (on loan from a very good friend of mine) but I never considered it an instrument that would make me replace my old Audya.
So, I am given the opportunity to present you a video that I made and uploaded to YouTube yesterday and it is the first tutorial in a very long series that I am preparing and will be uploaded often.
So here you will see how through STYLE MODELING we can transform a style without a trace of programming and in this video, I only describe the Audio Parts and not the Midi which also work in the same way.
Watch it.
https://youtu.be/E8M-E7vZrLs
Thanks

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on December 10, 2022, 06:57:45 AM
Thank you so much, Sokratis for answering my questions, creating and sharing this very interesting Event Video ! Very impressive. :)

Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on December 10, 2022, 08:24:03 AM
Impressive. Not sure how much I would use this kind of capability, but it does seem like a step change in ease of style modification and making styles less repetitive in real time.

Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on December 10, 2022, 10:02:32 AM
Hey Sokratis :

I would be very grateful if you could show ( or tell ) how midi parts are created and how the final ( short ) midi file would sound like.
Only do it if it is possible for you, if you have time and if you feel like doing it.  ;)
I do not want to force anything.

Thank you very much.
Best wishes, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on December 10, 2022, 10:31:57 AM
...
So here you will see how through STYLE MODELING we can transform a style without a trace of programming...

I realized, that many in this forum don't necessary agree with my opinions and that's ok. What's more important to me is, to make clear, that it's never my intention just to criticize everything in a negative way. And when I express my wish or opinion, I'm aware that that might not be everyone else's wish.

What is see in this video is, how easy it's supposed to be replacing instruments/riffs, while playing the style (in any key, I assume). And even disco/funk isn't my kind of music, I can recognize,  that this really is a welcome feature compared to current Yamaha.
But what I'm more interested (about 5000€ keyboard) is, how easy it is to make style from scratch. However, not for some random disco rhythm, which purpose is only to sound "cool". As example, some "real" well known music should be chosen, which would demonstrate how close to original we can get and how much work is needed for that.
What I'm saying is, if only some random rhythms are chosen (for sake to impress), then that's only "just another demo" for me.

Probably not related to this topic, but still... By looking at internet shops (in Europe), I have an impression that there's some "crisis" in arranger keyboard industry:
Korg -for latest Pa5x one needs to wait 3+ months, while midrange (Pa) series keyboards many times aren't even listed anymore.
Ketron -actual release of Event model is pretty much unknown and at least price wise, there are no midrange keyboards.
Yamaha -nothing new is going on here (having Genos in mind), although existing keyboards are available.

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on December 10, 2022, 11:01:53 AM
I realized, that many in this forum don't necessary agree with my opinions and that's ok. What's more important to me is, to make clear, that it's never my intention just to criticize everything in a negative way. And when I express my wish or opinion, I'm aware that that might not be everyone else's wish.

What is see in this video is, how easy it's supposed to be replacing instruments/riffs, while playing the style (in any key, I assume). And even disco/funk isn't my kind of music, I can recognize,  that this really is a welcome feature compared to current Yamaha.
But what I'm more interested (about 5000€ keyboard) is, how easy it is to make style from scratch. However, not for some random disco rhythm, which purpose is only to sound "cool". As example, some "real" well known music should be chosen, which would demonstrate how close to original we can get and how much work is needed for that.
What I'm saying is, if only some random rhythms are chosen (for sake to impress), then that's only "just another demo" for me.

Probably not related to this topic, but still... By looking at internet shops (in Europe), I have an impression that there's some "crisis" in arranger keyboard industry:
Korg -for latest Pa5x one needs to wait 3+ months, while midrange (Pa) series keyboards many times aren't even listed anymore.
Ketron -actual release of Event model is pretty much unknown and at least price wise, there are no midrange keyboards.
Yamaha -nothing new is going on here (having Genos in mind), although existing keyboards are available.

Bogdan
So..
If you know how to programming a style on a Yamaha Arranger I would tell you that here too the way above all when we work through someone DAW (Cubase, Reaper, Logic etc) it's almost the same.
We simply rename the style file from .KST to .MID and is ready for import as midi file and editing own daw.
After completing the process we export again as a midifile (0) from the daw and again simply rename from .MID to .KST.
That's all.
I must also say that and the onboard STYLE EDIT that it has is particularly easy to use with the only drawback that it does not have event edits such as Genos or any Korg Pa Series.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on December 10, 2022, 11:03:59 AM
Hey Sokratis :

I would be very grateful if you could show ( or tell ) how midi parts are created and how the final ( short ) midi file would sound like.
Only do it if it is possible for you, if you have time and if you feel like doing it.  ;)
I do not want to force anything.

Thank you very much.
Best wishes, JH
This will come in future tutorials :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on December 10, 2022, 11:54:59 AM
This demo was fine if all you want to do is play dance music but a lot of us especially home players who are the ones who buy these keyboards a lot, would not want to play this type of music. We sometimes find the styles are to busy for the melody lines  so cut them back a little. I will defiantly be sticking to my Genos as there are hundreds of styles available to use and many are song specific. I wonder how you have time to play a descent Melody when you are busy changing all the style parts.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on December 10, 2022, 12:39:35 PM
hi Eileen,
That's exactly what I wanted to say in my previous post, when I mentioned that "real" music should be used. I'm aware that (very) young people do listen to disco/funk/whatever, or they just don't care as long there's enough "boom" (and melody is many times irrelevant). But then, at such parties, DJ usually don't use arranger keyboard at all.
Even many of us in this forum are in "mature" age, that doesn't mean we play "old-fashion" obsolete music. Actually I'm sure, that younger audience is very much interested in "Classic" dance music we play... to dance & sway on rhythms of songs they're familiar with.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on December 10, 2022, 01:42:48 PM
IMHO Sokratis' only intention was to show us ( in this video ) how the Event's system is working if a player wants to change the existing styles parts, correct ? :)

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on December 10, 2022, 02:07:24 PM
hi Eileen,
That's exactly what I wanted to say in my previous post, when I mentioned that "real" music should be used. I'm aware that (very) young people do listen to disco/funk/whatever, or they just don't care as long there's enough "boom" (and melody is many times irrelevant). But then, at such parties, DJ usually don't use arranger keyboard at all.
Even many of us in this forum are in "mature" age, that doesn't mean we play "old-fashion" obsolete music. Actually I'm sure, that younger audience is very much interested in "Classic" dance music we play... to dance & sway on rhythms of songs they're familiar with.
This specific technique (Style Modeling) is not only used in DANCE Styles but there is also an Audio and Midi Palette for many categories (Ballads, Pop, Country, Jazz, Rock etc.)
But I would say it's better to close the issue of the Event here because I'm also starting to feel uncomfortable since this is a Yamaha Forum and not Ketron.
So please don't ask me any more questions about the Event here.
If anyone would like more information, please contact me personally.
Thank you very much.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on December 10, 2022, 03:07:54 PM
This demo was fine if all you want to do is play dance music but a lot of us especially home players who are the ones who buy these keyboards a lot, would not want to play this type of music. We sometimes find the styles are to busy for the melody lines  so cut them back a little. I will defiantly be sticking to my Genos as there are hundreds of styles available to use and many are song specific. I wonder how you have time to play a descent Melody when you are busy changing all the style parts.
I couldn't agree more, Eileen. I estimate 99% of Genos or other arranger users are still interested in playing "human music." It annoys me to no end when any company demos their new keyboard using Funk, Rap, or Dance styles to entice me into buying one. With all due respect to those musicians, I find it takes FAR more talent to play the tunes we were all raised with than a bunch of repetitive noise that hinges itself on the technical prowess of the engineers who created those styles rather than, the musical talent of the player.

Once you've mastered those styles, there seems to be little room for expansion. You've conquered the genre. Learning to play Blues and then taking on the Ray Charles or Oscar Peterson styles requires one to live about 200 years to even scratch the surface - and that's just two artists!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on December 10, 2022, 03:27:03 PM
I couldn't agree more, Eileen. I estimate 99% of Genos or other arranger users are still interested in playing "human music." It annoys me to no end when any company demos their new keyboard using Funk, Rap, or Dance styles to entice me into buying one. With all due respect to those musicians, I find it takes FAR more talent to play the tunes we were all raised with than a bunch of repetitive noise that hinges itself on the technical prowess of the engineers who created those styles rather than, the musical talent of the player.

Once you've mastered those styles, there seems to be little room for expansion. You've conquered the genre. Learning to play Blues and then taking on the Ray Charles or Oscar Peterson styles requires one to live about 200 years to even scratch the surface - and that's just two artists!
I won't argue. But I should also remind you of the Genos campaign that we never learned about and what its purpose was. If you remember well, with these three DANCE tracks Yamaha did the Genos campaign and until today we didn't find out what these tracks had to do with the Genos.
And in fact, this campaign had a celebrity as its protagonist DJ.
Also I would like to tell you that usually I at least don't label any music as (noise)... If there is even one who expresses himself with it I respect it.. If it bothers me I'm just not interested in it.

GENΟS CAMPAIGN
1) https://youtu.be/jHdbmEGyyNg

2) https://youtu.be/nSJhKv1ZGIk

3) https://youtu.be/ZWLkgGZpJWE


Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on December 10, 2022, 03:53:14 PM
"Noise," Sokrtis? You're right. I stand corrected. To play the modern music genres in my aforementioned post, here is the keyboard that is needed to pretty much cover it all 🤣.

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on December 10, 2022, 04:54:49 PM
I think it's pretty clear that Socrates is demonstrating the technical capability, not a specific type of music. We can use our imagination and see how the same technology could be applied to all styles - pop, swing, jazz .....and it's a mile easier than the way we currently have to edit our styles on a Yamaha.
Whether that is important to you or not is a separate question. In my view the typical arranger buyer doesn't mess too much with style editing. But then again, is that partly because it's a pain to do so at the moment? What if it was easier. Would we use it much more??
It would be nice to see a very similar demo based on more traditional music styles. I think most of us would find it much more meaningful. One of the concerns I have for keyboard design is that the people driving the design of these keyboards are likely in their 20s and 30s while the buyers are largely in their 50s, 60s and 70s. Do they understand the market, or are they trying to change the market?
I am also in agreement with Bogdan, I see how it makes style editing simple, but what about making a style - especially intros and endings. Is that any easier??
BTW Sokratis, this is a Yamaha users forum and website... not actually Yamaha forum. But I take your point.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Bill on December 10, 2022, 05:23:21 PM
[quote author=Sokratis1974
But I would say it's better to close the issue of the Event here because I'm also starting to feel uncomfortable since this is a Yamaha Forum and not Ketron.
So please don't ask me any more questions about the Event here.
If anyone would like more information, please contact me personally.
Thank you very much.
[/quote]

Hi Sokratis

I can only apologise if some members make you feel uncomfortable (I would too). However I would like to thank you very much for all the time you have taken to give us a little understanding of the new developing technology. I really appreciate it.

Regards

Bill
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on December 10, 2022, 05:55:55 PM
Hi
i must say the genos is absolute quality and i am sticking with it
You can turn anything on Genos to wave file anyway.
this keyboard is streets ahead of anything out there in it's class.
Just enhance the Genos with VST  and Sample Robot.
Skies the limit 8) :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on December 10, 2022, 06:04:49 PM
Mike makes an excellent point. I think more users would venture into style creation and modifications if Yamaha made it a lot easier. Admittingly, I haven't spent much time editing or creating styles but from the little time I have devoted I can say the method is a convoluted pain in the neck. And forget style creation. I won't live long enough to figure out that terrible software.

To be fair to Yamaha, most onboard, deep-dive editing is a pain. It would be SO much easier if the style could be loaded onto a PC or Mac, modified, tested, and then passed back to the Genos. Perhaps in Genos 2?
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on December 10, 2022, 06:33:02 PM
Hi Lee
Hope you and family are doing well.
If you want great styles ------------------------------https://www.d-o-o.de/
                                          Cross off top part of page and underneath turn german to English
I would not waste time making styles as they are a bit time consuming.
I use Midi Soft Style program to just change styles and turn them into what i want. Great midi program.
You can make your own intro's, turn to wave and put them in the Pad section to fire off, same with breaks and endings.
 Also Padmaker is a great program to get the right volume levels and to make things easier
Padmaker can make intro's etc from midi files out there
Skies the limit!!! ;D
These Ketron fans talk of Wave files , But it is all there in the Genos, PADS!!!

All the best
John :) :) :)
HAPPY CHRISTMAS


Ps i will come out soon after the long Mix and master fiasco that i have been put through of my own will.

Pc best for editing
Southern Comfort  best for relaxing!!! ;D

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on December 10, 2022, 06:56:05 PM
[quote author=Sokratis1974
But I would say it's better to close the issue of the Event here because I'm also starting to feel uncomfortable since this is a Yamaha Forum and not Ketron.
So please don't ask me any more questions about the Event here.
If anyone would like more information, please contact me personally.
Thank you very much.


Hi Sokratis

I can only apologise if some members make you feel uncomfortable (I would too). However I would like to thank you very much for all the time you have taken to give us a little understanding of the new developing technology. I really appreciate it.

Regards

Bill
Bill, You don't have to apologize for some members who, with some short-sightedness, do not wish to have an open discussion because they feel that their 'Genos' should not be subjected to criticism in any way. Anyone can read the posts and sees what's happening.  After all, we're all adults, right?? Just check out a Ketron forum, just as easy. ;)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on December 10, 2022, 07:04:53 PM
John
Don’t understand your point about re wav files. The points being made in the last few posts in this thread are about much easier style editing, not advantages or otherwise of wav vs midi??
The Genos is a great keyboard, and is arguably better than Ketron in some regards, but what Ketron have done here appears to be a major breakthrough in easy style modification, and certainly interesting.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on December 10, 2022, 08:22:28 PM
Doing great, thanks John 🎄!

I sure agree that it's easier to buy or acquire ready made styles. They certainly are difficult to get right. Someday I may venture down that path.
Stay well!

- Lee

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rphillipchuk on December 10, 2022, 09:50:04 PM
I think that  "BogdanH"  was correct in asking how "easy" it would be,  to create a New Style !   

Let's be honest, creating a new style from scratch is a little daunting , but if it is as simple as grabbing a Drum phrase, add some real bass and you would have a great start to a new style
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on December 10, 2022, 11:25:09 PM
The purpose of the three video's mentioned before was that Genos was being used along with the Berlin Orchestra to play some of the Drum patterns and style parts using some of the Knob assigned effects to these showing how easy it is to use in live performance.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on December 11, 2022, 05:41:57 AM
The purpose of the three video's mentioned before was that Genos was being used along with the Berlin Orchestra to play some of the Drum patterns and style parts using some of the Knob assigned effects to these showing how easy it is to use in live performance.
Dear EileenL.
Although as I wrote above, I don't want to continue this discussion, however because this answer is not about Event but about Genos and about my own comment, I would like to say a few things.
First let me disagree with your point and I would like to explain why I disagree.
So, I disagree because when a company creates a campaign like in this case Yamaha with Genos, it must (and is required) be clear with what it projects and with what it promotes.
So, I will remind you what happened then.
Yamaha started the campaign before the official launch of the Genos by releasing these three mysterious videos that I personally never understood, and I never got any response to the emails I sent to the company.
So, all three of these videos contain the exact same direction and the focus is the Berlin Symphony, a lot of unrelated exterior shots (especially in the first video) and some very rushed shots from Genos that of course have nothing to do with the style or the sound that seems to have been chosen by the protagonist Alex Christensen.
So, I ask you: Can you find anything familiar (from Genos) in these videos? Because as you know I've had Genos since early 2018 and I hear absolutely nothing whether it's Style or Sound or whatever.
On the contrary, all three of these pieces (as far as the rhythmic electronic part is concerned) are programmed in some daw (Cubase etc.) and not some Style and we understand this above all from the pauses that exist between the pieces that are almost impossible to exist pauses in such a way in a style.
You will of course tell me that in a studio everything can be done and of course you will be right.
But in campaigning for such an instrument what should be advertised is what Real Time can achieve and not in a studio where something can practically be created (from the instrument itself) in which it is practically impossible to reproduce Real Time.
And that's because the reason all arrangers are built is to produce Real Time music through Styles.
Also let me tell you that for 22 years I have been producing music on the computer (independent of Arrangers) and I know very well when a track is programmed.
But regardless of the technical issues, I want to see things more clearly.
If Yamaha wanted to do a real campaign that made sense, then they would put the musician who would accompany the orchestra with the Genos, right next to it and they would play together while making a full description of what we are seeing.
Instead on Yamaha's site there was a completely unrelated slogan "GENOS IN ACTION" which led to these three videos without the slightest explanation of what we were seeing.
If you search the comments, you will still find the confusion created by Yamaha users who never understood what they were seeing.
So, you want me to remind you of the description of these videos (even today)?

VIDEO FIRST DATED SEPTEMBER 15, 2017:
https://youtu.be/jHdbmEGyyNg
After establishing the genre “Orchestral Dance Music” with volumes 1-3 of Classical 90's DANCE, Alex Christensen is now back with Classical 80's DANCE: The DJ, producer, talent-scout and songwriter now builds new homes for smash-hits of the 80s , timelessly staged. Catchy melodies, which are firmly anchored in our collective memory, combined with new orchestral arrangements. Besides Felix Räuber, who is the former frontman of Polarkreis 18, “Classical 80s Dance” hosts many national and international artists such as Ronan Keating, Sophie Ellis-Bextor, Gary Barlow, Bonny Tyler and many more:
All videos of Classical 80s & 90s Dance by Marcel Brell.

SECOND VIDEO DATED SEPTEMBER 22, 2017
https://youtu.be/nSJhKv1ZGIk
After establishing the genre “Orchestral Dance Music” with volumes 1-3 of Classical 90's DANCE, Alex Christensen is now back with Classical 80's DANCE: The DJ, producer, talent-scout and songwriter now builds new homes for smash-hits of the 80s , timelessly staged. Catchy melodies, which are firmly anchored in our collective memory, combined with new orchestral arrangements. Besides Felix Räuber, who is the former frontman of Polarkreis 18, “Classical 80s Dance” hosts many national and international artists such as Ronan Keating, Sophie Ellis-Bextor, Gary Barlow, Bonny Tyler and many more:
All videos of Classical 80s & 90s Dance by Marcel Brell

THIRD VIDEO DATED SEPTEMBER 29, 2017
https://youtu.be/ZWLkgGZpJWE
After establishing the genre “Orchestral Dance Music” with volumes 1-3 of Classical 90's DANCE, Alex Christensen is now back with Classical 80's DANCE: The DJ, producer, talent-scout and songwriter now builds new homes for smash-hits of the 80s , timelessly staged. Catchy melodies, which are firmly anchored in our collective memory, combined with new orchestral arrangements. Besides Felix Räuber, who is the former frontmann of Polarkreis 18, “Classical 80s Dance” hosts many national and international artists such as Ronan Keating, Sophie Ellis-Bextor, Gary Barlow, Bonny Tyler and many more:
All videos of Classical 80s & 90s Dance by Marcel Brell

So, I ask you. Can you make any sense out of it all?
Do you find any logic in this campaign?
Personally, not only do I not find it logical, but I also think it contains elements of deception.
I also must tell you that I too, watching these videos, initially had very high expectations, but these were dashed when I heard the (real demos) and not the (fakes).
You will of course ask me why I bought it?
I've said it before, but I'll say it again. I'm a fan of Audio Styles if (I know a lot of you don't like it at all).
So, as I said before, I was always looking for an opportunity to buy a Yamaha arranger, this opportunity appeared when I saw the Audio Phraser through which we could have Live Drum direct from disc through a time stretch algorithm (as is done in Ketron).
I finally bought it (the Genos) and Yamaha despite emails never perfected that program (Audio Phraser) and to this day it remains literally useless.
Of course, I found a solution through REX Files, but it had a cost to the Ram.
Thanks.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on December 11, 2022, 07:42:01 AM
Dear Sokratis, live up to your name: be wise  ;). In my opinion you are right on quite a few points, but save your energy trying to convince some of the 'Genos' hardliners on this forum with correct arguments. Hopefully we will see more results from both the Korg and the Ketron in the foreseeable future. Whether Yamaha is still in the picture to surpass, I highly doubt. It will be more of the same as Korg. Ketron steers its own course. Next year, around this time, we can compare the Yamaha Genos 3, the Korg Pa5x and the Ketron Event. Ultimately, the consumers decide. Happy keyboarding  ;)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on December 11, 2022, 09:14:00 AM
Dear Sokratis, live up to your name: be wise  ;). In my opinion you are right on quite a few points, but save your energy trying to convince some of the 'Genos' hardliners on this forum with correct arguments. Hopefully we will see more results from both the Korg and the Ketron in the foreseeable future. Whether Yamaha is still in the picture to surpass, I highly doubt. It will be more of the same as Korg. Ketron steers its own course. Next year, around this time, we can compare the Yamaha Genos 3, the Korg Pa5x and the Ketron Event. Ultimately, the consumers decide. Happy keyboarding  ;)
My friend ton37 I'm not trying to convince anyone. Personally, it is enough for me that opinions are expressed wherever they come from.. Everyone evaluates and draws their own conclusions.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on December 11, 2022, 10:25:46 AM
I admit, that I never saw these three "Genos campaign" videos before. But watching them now, I see no relation to Genos whatsoever. Yes, there are few very short Genos flashes inside, but then, there I can also see flash of Mercedes and Renault cars... From what I read in the post, Yamaha used those video clips for Genos campaign? I ask, because (again) I see no relation to Yamaha there.

Back to (Ketron) topic...
@sokratis
I am aware, that Event isn't on market yet and that things are still being polished -means, at this point, certain details can't be shared in public.
As I mentioned many times, I really am impressed by Ketron Event and that's because of two reasons: visual appearance (obviously) and because, from what I can read, it's quite easy to get very good results on it (compared to competition). But "from what I can read" just isn't enough -it's still just a rumor. And that's why I said, that I would like to see more "specific" video content. But I get it: it's probably too early for that.
In short, it wasn't my intention to criticize your video -I was only telling what I'm personally interested on.

Best wishes,
Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on December 11, 2022, 11:46:27 AM
I admit, that I never saw these three "Genos campaign" videos before. But watching them now, I see no relation to Genos whatsoever. Yes, there are few very short Genos flashes inside, but then, there I can also see flash of Mercedes and Renault cars... From what I read in the post, Yamaha used those video clips for Genos campaign? I ask, because (again) I see no relation to Yamaha there.

Back to (Ketron) topic...
@sokratis
I am aware, that Event isn't on market yet and that things are still being polished -means, at this point, certain details can't be shared in public.
As I mentioned many times, I really am impressed by Ketron Event and that's because of two reasons: visual appearance (obviously) and because, from what I can read, it's quite easy to get very good results on it (compared to competition). But "from what I can read" just isn't enough -it's still just a rumor. And that's why I said, that I would like to see more "specific" video content. But I get it: it's probably too early for that.
In short, it wasn't my intention to criticize your video -I was only telling what I'm personally interested on.

Best wishes,
Bogdan
Yes, these three videos were the official Genos campaign..Isn't that really weird?...  No problem my friend. I didn't see any criticism. It's all opinions..
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on December 11, 2022, 01:07:56 PM
The good news about this whole thread is that there are two new arrangers on the market that have raised the bar over the Genos in many ways. Yamaha now has a bench mark with which to work and if history is any lesson, Yamaha will surpass those two new arrangers by a mile. They should because they have always been regarded as an industry leader in all their musical instrument products.

As a sidebar, I went into my music store a few years back, looking to buy an acoustic guitar to use with my jazz trio. I played guitar in my youth but went straight to piano and organ for my musical hobby. I wanted a guitar so I could strum chords for some of the songs in the jazz trio - just for a change in sound. I budgeted about $1,000. I asked the guitar rep about something in a decent price range for a beginner player (I know a lot of chords but I'm not even house broken on soling). I thought he would take a Fender, Martin, Taylor, or Takamine off the wrack. Nope, he grabbed a student Yamaha guitar. The neck was slightly narrower for easier learning, had a cut away body past the octave fret, onboard tuner, and pickup for connecting to my Bose speakers. Price with case included $649. At the time, I didn't buy it but I'm still considering the purchase. The point is, of all the big players in the guitar industry, he chose Yamaha for its price versus benefits. I'm sure each of the other companies offer a student version (not sure about Taylor) but he chose Yamaha.

I'm sure Genos 2 won't let us down 😀.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Amwilburn on December 11, 2022, 10:38:55 PM
Dear EileenL.
*snip*
VIDEO FIRST DATED SEPTEMBER 15, 2017:
https://youtu.be/jHdbmEGyyNg
After establishing the genre “Orchestral Dance Music” with volumes 1-3 of Classical 90's DANCE, Alex Christensen is now back with Classical 80's DANCE: The DJ, producer, talent-scout and songwriter now builds new homes for smash-hits of the 80s , timelessly staged. Catchy melodies, which are firmly anchored in our collective memory, combined with new orchestral arrangements. Besides Felix Räuber, who is the former frontman of Polarkreis 18, “Classical 80s Dance” hosts many national and international artists such as Ronan Keating, Sophie Ellis-Bextor, Gary Barlow, Bonny Tyler and many more:
All videos of Classical 80s & 90s Dance by Marcel Brell.


Odd. You said they're official Yamaha Genos teasers, but they're both published by Alex Christiansen. Moreover, none of the hashtags include Yamaha. Which would be antithetical for a Yamaha Genos promo, no? Nowhere do any of the videos claim anything but an actual orchestra. Ok, the EDM drums are electronic, I supposed that could've come from a Genos. But they didn't claim Genos *anywhere* on all of those videos...?

As a dealer, *this* was the only teaser video we were given prior to launch:
As you can see, published by Yamaha.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Sva8QktXf0

My question is, why do you say these are Genos promos? (Could have been, but as a dealer in Canada, we were never given these links, and the links you provide don't hashtag Yamaha or Genos at all)

Incidentally (I know mikf will get a kick out of this) we've had the Pa5x side by side with the Genos since launch (technically July of 2022). We've since sold significantly more Genos than Pa5x (they've somehow made the operating system even more obtuse and difficult to navigate). But yes, I think the seamless patch switching, the piano, hammond organs, Classical guitars, lead and pad synths, and drums are even better than the Genos (it's pretty slight in either direction at this point; with the exception of strings: Solo strings Korg has a *slight* edge, but ensemble strings ensemble choir, the Genos is *quite* a bit ahead). However, Korg's multiple "Tutti" orchestral patches are significantly better than Yamaha's Tutti (20 year old sample! Time for a new one!).

Mark
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on December 12, 2022, 05:39:32 AM
Odd. You said they're official Yamaha Genos teasers, but they're both published by Alex Christiansen. Moreover, none of the hashtags include Yamaha. Which would be antithetical for a Yamaha Genos promo, no? Nowhere do any of the videos claim anything but an actual orchestra. Ok, the EDM drums are electronic, I supposed that could've come from a Genos. But they didn't claim Genos *anywhere* on all of those videos...?

As a dealer, *this* was the only teaser video we were given prior to launch:
As you can see, published by Yamaha.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Sva8QktXf0

My question is, why do you say these are Genos promos? (Could have been, but as a dealer in Canada, we were never given these links, and the links you provide don't hashtag Yamaha or Genos at all)

Incidentally (I know mikf will get a kick out of this) we've had the Pa5x side by side with the Genos since launch (technically July of 2022). We've since sold significantly more Genos than Pa5x (they've somehow made the operating system even more obtuse and difficult to navigate). But yes, I think the seamless patch switching, the piano, hammond organs, Classical guitars, lead and pad synths, and drums are even better than the Genos (it's pretty slight in either direction at this point; with the exception of strings: Solo strings Korg has a *slight* edge, but ensemble strings ensemble choir, the Genos is *quite* a bit ahead).

Mark
My dear friend, I'm sorry, but I did not create in my mind all that I am describing. I've experienced all of this (as have others) and I've never been able to explain it.
Since you probably don't know what happened, I'll say it again.
So, Yamaha uploaded one of these videos on its official website just before the official presentation every week, specifically on SEPTEMBER 15, 2017, SEPTEMBER 22, 2017 and SEPTEMBER 29, 2017 in the order I put them in my above post.
The title that Yamaha put on its website was: GENOS IN ACTION and it led to these videos.
Of course, there was not the slightest other explanation and not even in the description of the videos there was even the slightest reference, or hashtag regarding the Genos even though there is a clear (product placement) Yamaha since even the headphones that the girl in the first video wears clearly have the Yamaha logo.
And since I always like to talk with facts, I would like to attach some to you. So, I searched and found some comments (which I remembered from the first moments of posting the videos) and I am attaching them to you as Screenshot.
https://app.box.com/s/uee5kwekjav7iuhd3awqej23kk5rnfkv
Also, from an official Yamaha Facebook page at the time, fortunately I had taken a screenshot of the publication of the video with hashtag (#genos) and I have attached this to you as well.
so, I am attaching this to you as well.
So, see in the link I am sending you the YouTube comments I found today, what the people who were directed to these videos by the Yamaha site said in the first days. Because if there was no Yamaha publication there would be no reason for all of them to comment critically on Yamaha.
I had also made a specific publication in this Forum which of course did not come to any conclusion.
https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,46477.0.html
So you see for those who don't know the specific facts that it was beyond reason? Why Yamaha did it only they know. But the facts do not change.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Duffy on December 12, 2022, 09:47:08 AM
I will back up what Sokratis has said because I also remember seeing these 3 teaser videos and Yamaha using them as an advert for the coming Genos.
I remember, at the time, watching the videos and wondering what part the keyboard played in all this as the message seemed to pass me by.
The links HAD come from Yamaha themselves.
 
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: pjd on December 12, 2022, 05:56:55 PM
My dear friend, I'm sorry, but I did not create in my mind all that I am describing. I've experienced all of this (as have others) and I've never been able to explain it.

I don't want to re-litigate the whole teaser discussion, but I'm with Sokratis on this one.

Yamaha laid out a bunch of product-placement money -- catch the headphones in the studio, too? That whole teaser thing left a lot of potential customers confused about the product, myself included. (I drew some far-fetched, but plausible inferences that proved to be wrong.)  ??? ::) :-[

If any company pulls this teaser B.S. again, I'm going to call them on it.  :(

Oh, well -- pj
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Amwilburn on December 12, 2022, 06:26:59 PM
Ah...from facebook. I guess that helps explain it... I don't think I've ever looked at any official ads from any corporation through facebook; Nor did Yamaha Canada every mention/show us that. Yes, if they linked it from an official page, that is an absolutely baffling campaign... as I said, the videos themselves don't even reference Yamaha or Genos save for a flash of the corner of a keyboard. But watching them, nowhere did I get the impression that the music was coming from a Genos (Berlin Orchestra was plastered all over the videos) so I still don't understand your "deception" comments.

I mean, no, the Genos is not as impressive as an actual orchestra (no keyboard is... yet) but I think the Genos is still ahead of the curve there. As per my actual live demos (that I can't recreate on any other brand key because I don't have full style programming control and instant registration switching)
Yes my playing is sloppy :p And yes I cheated *slightly*; on half of these registrations I swapped out the Yamaha default Tutti for the CMS Orchestra (so I could create different levels of crescendo), except for "PoTC" because I hadn't thought of doing that yet. That's just Yamaha's old "Tutti" -- which is getting a little long in the tooth, I hope they add a new one in the G2. Korg's PA5x has several versions of the Tutti crash, and they are wonderfully similar to the CMS one. Shame about the upper register of strings, though. PA5x even has one with a Tutti Crash combined with bass notes from a piano... absolutely perfect for Cliff Eidelman/ Danny Elfman scores!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-UBkmhTW9c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NRr4Npi_ds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOSmEEX-5Ks

However, Sokratis, thank you for finding a pic of that! Hah, no wonder Yamaha Canada has ever mentioned a facebook page!

Mark (the #fatguyonkeys on youtube)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on December 12, 2022, 07:58:24 PM
Ah...from facebook. I guess that helps explain it... I don't think I've ever looked at any official ads from any corporation through facebook; Nor did Yamaha Canada every mention/show us that. Yes, if they linked it from an official page, that is an absolutely baffling campaign... as I said, the videos themselves don't even reference Yamaha or Genos save for a flash of the corner of a keyboard. But watching them, nowhere did I get the impression that the music was coming from a Genos (Berlin Orchestra was plastered all over the videos) so I still don't understand your "deception" comments.

I mean, no, the Genos is not as impressive as an actual orchestra (no keyboard is... yet) but I think the Genos is still ahead of the curve there. As per my actual live demos (that I can't recreate on any other brand key because I don't have full style programming control and instant registration switching)
Yes my playing is sloppy :p And yes I cheated *slightly*; on half of these registrations I swapped out the Yamaha default Tutti for the CMS Orchestra (so I could create different levels of crescendo), except for "PoTC" because I hadn't thought of doing that yet. That's just Yamaha's old "Tutti" -- which is getting a little long in the tooth, I hope they add a new one in the G2. Korg's PA5x has several versions of the Tutti crash, and they are wonderfully similar to the CMS one. Shame about the upper register of strings, though. PA5x even has one with a Tutti Crash combined with bass notes from a piano... absolutely perfect for Cliff Eidelman/ Danny Elfman scores!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-UBkmhTW9c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NRr4Npi_ds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOSmEEX-5Ks

However, Sokratis, thank you for finding a pic of that! Hah, no wonder Yamaha Canada has ever mentioned a facebook page!

Mark (the #fatguyonkeys on youtube)
You didn't understand again. The campaign did not start from Facebook but from the official Yamaha site (I think Yamaha USA) I don't remember exactly. The slogan GENOS IN ACTION and the videos there were posted. So later there was also a publication on Facebook and it is in the screenshot that I have attached to you.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Henni on December 13, 2022, 08:41:18 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGppdIbencU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8M-E7vZrLs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9COE0QFkjU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uki-bcmmsIg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QScDR98EKNY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ka2Y92Q4t_4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSdU8ywSvQE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioBCBakUGjg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnns0V3HNlU
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: DerekA on December 14, 2022, 09:56:06 AM
Have to agree with Duffy and PJD; that whole marketing campaign, which was not via facebook, suggested Genos was being used in those audio clips, which it clearly wasn't.

I did speak with someone closely involved with the Genos content development who said that this marketing campaign was devised by Yamaha Germany, and that he personally thought it was a mistake.

Doesn't stop me loving my Genos. But it would be really interesting to see if anyone could create something similar to those trailers just using Genos.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Henni on December 14, 2022, 02:49:46 PM
WOW!!! You are AMAZING!!! & extremely talented Sokratis!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFr2Z_h71_c

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on December 14, 2022, 04:35:00 PM
Congratulations, Sokratis !!!

A very nice piece of music you made there. What a great sound. :)

Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Henni on December 16, 2022, 11:58:07 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJnhl4HXotU
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on December 16, 2022, 12:48:36 PM
Nice video, Henni. Does the Event use round robin backing tracks? They are far more interesting than the Genos. Less repetitive.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on December 16, 2022, 01:09:21 PM
Nice video, Henni. Does the Event use round robin backing tracks? They are far more interesting than the Genos. Less repetitive.
No.. Nothing more than a simple (new type) Audio style. Combined of course with the new excellent VOICETRON (for vocal harmonies)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: bpsafran on December 16, 2022, 01:24:16 PM
But while the audio may sound more live, you can make midi styles less repetative by having longer patterns and variations for different chord types. Some older Lowrey organs had several possible patterns for each chord type and switched from one to another randomly. More recent Lowreys have extremely long patterns. I don't know why Yamaha patterns are mostly only 2 or 4 bars.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on December 16, 2022, 03:45:08 PM
Good point, bpsafran. I agree. Despite the stellar voicings on the Genos, they have fallen WAY behind in their style architecture. The styles are well done but very routine, boring, and predictable. Hopefully, Yamaha will remedy this most important shortcoming in Genos 2.

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on December 16, 2022, 05:12:33 PM
The YouTube video regarding Sokratis' demonstration is interesting, but I noticed when the audio samples created with VSTi's and Cubase 12 were used in conjunction with the Event audio style (Epic_Rock), there was some degradation in the sound of the audio style when it was playing along with the user created audio samples. If there was no discernible sound degradation when combining user audio samples with the Event audio styles, then I would say a fantastic innovation. But with the noticeable sound degradation, I will give my honest opinion and say somebody should go back to the drawing board. Either Ketron Italy software/sound engineers need to tweak things on the Event, or it could possibly be the user created audio samples are somehow not fully compatible with the Event audio styles format and this could be the fault with producing/recording with Cubase 12 and/or the VSTi's used with Cubase 12, or both potentially. Btw, Cubase 12 Pro costs $579. :o FWIW, it is a very interesting concept, but seems very time-consuming and work intensive. If it worked seamlessly and flawlessly with no degradation in sound quality, then it would be another great reason and incentive to purchase a Ketron Event. Cheers.

All the best,
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on December 16, 2022, 05:50:47 PM
The YouTube video regarding Sokratis' demonstration is interesting, but I noticed when the audio samples created with VSTi's and Cubase 12 were used in conjunction with the Event audio style (Epic_Rock), there was some degradation in the sound of the audio style when it was playing along with the user created audio samples. If there was no discernible sound degradation when combining user audio samples with the Event audio styles, then I would say a fantastic innovation. But with the noticeable sound degradation, I will give my honest opinion and say somebody should go back to the drawing board. Either Ketron Italy software/sound engineers need to tweak things on the Event, or it could possibly be the user created audio samples are somehow not fully compatible with the Event audio styles format and this could be the fault with producing/recording with Cubase 12 and/or the VSTi's used with Cubase 12, or both potentially. Btw, Cubase 12 Pro costs $579. :o FWIW, it is a very interesting concept, but seems very time-consuming and work intensive. If it worked seamlessly and flawlessly with no degradation in sound quality, then it would be another great reason and incentive to purchase a Ketron Event. Cheers.

All the best,
Mike
Dear Mike. I have not understood what kind of degradation you have detected. But I must say that within the Event I have made some kind of intervention through EQ in order for them to (stick) between the other elements. But, if you want I can make you a completely flat demo on the audio part (Real Chord) so you can hear the differences. I think up to a point there will be some difference because I don't think the Event AD/DA Converters are any better than the RME UCX ones I have.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: soryt on December 16, 2022, 11:07:24 PM
I only  see a display and hear the sounds , show it real-time played.
Then I believe what I hear , video editing is so easy
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on December 17, 2022, 05:22:44 AM
I only  see a display and hear the sounds , show it real-time played.
Then I believe what I hear , video editing is so easy
So, my friend if I wanted to deceive with this video, I must have been too stupid to do so because it would be easy for someone who bought the Event later to find out that I had deceived the people. The practices used by Yamaha with the Genos campaign (Alex Christensen video) which we analyzed a little earlier in this post, I will not neither I nor Ketron will use them. The fact that I didn't put a camera is purely for technical reasons because I have a very serious problem in my home studio where the space is very limited, and I don't have a good place to set up the video camera properly. So, what I did is I got the video and sound of the Event via OBS (HDMI for video and Stereo Line Out for sound) and I recorded it.
Also, to say that I am not the one who posted this video in here.
But whether you (or others) believe it or not, this is ABSOLUTELY TRUE. And since I have no purpose and no reason to prove anything, I'm going to say this publicly something very simple: If you ever find yourself in a music store that has the  Event as demo I'd love for you to send me a message and I'll send you this entire project directly which is very easy to load into the Event and play it yourself. What do you say you will do?
Anyway, I publicly commit that I will do it not only to you but to anyone who wants to.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on December 17, 2022, 07:43:23 AM
Dear Sokratis :

I know and believe you are telling the truth. :)

Keep smiling : up to now the Event seems to be a very professional arranger keyboard with a great sound and a high price ( EURO 5.000, -- !!! ) ;).
I have no idea what the final street price will be.

The Event is not available in our Dutch music shops yet.
According to our dealers it will take at least 4 - 5 weeks before the public can see, hear, touch and try it.
Only then we will read the first reactions / impressions and comments. ;) 

Last but not least most people here want to know what Yamaha's answer will be before making any decision. Understandable, right ? 

I wish you and your family a Merry X-Mas and a Happy New Year.
Best regards, JH

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Bill on December 17, 2022, 09:38:08 AM
the Event seems to be a very professional arranger keyboard with a great sound and a high price ( EURO 5.000, -- !!! ) ;).
I have no idea what the final street price will be.

The price is €4099

https://www.ketron.it/prodotto/event

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on December 17, 2022, 10:20:20 AM
At Thomann (https://www.thomann.de/intl/ketron_event.htm) listed price is 4999€. But at this point (no available yet), the exact price is irrelevant. Except, it's an high end keyboard: feature- and price wise.

Kudos to Sokratis for showing some of Event features before official launch. I don't understand italian language and so it's hard for me to make some conclusions from videos, though. That is, I can recognize there is "a lot" in Event, but I still don't have the whole picture of it.
As Jeff said, we need to wait until product comes to owners hands. And hopefully, at that time, we will get more info (reviews, impressions, comparisons, etc.) than that's the case for Korg Pa5X.

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on December 17, 2022, 10:39:34 AM
Hey Bogdan,

On YT I saw the Korg Pa5X's " grand update " has been started recently.  :D
Hopefully there will be no important bugs for the new owners after that update.

Maybe Rikki ( from Australia ) can tell us more about that famous update.
She is a proud owner of the PA5X/88.

Enjoy your weekend, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Gunnar Jonny on December 17, 2022, 10:49:49 AM
At Thomann (https://www.thomann.de/intl/ketron_event.htm) listed price is 4999€. But at this point (no available yet), the exact price is irrelevant. Except, it's an high end keyboard: feature- and price wise.

Just to compare prices for TOTL arrangers at Thomann website today 17 Dec 2022:
Genos: 4.736,31 €    Korg PA5X-76: 5.032,74 €   Ketron Event: 5.537,92 €
My guess is that a new Genos version, if it was a reality, would be listed way above 5k €

Anyway, what matter, is the price we really have to pay when deal settled.
That usually differ a lot regarded to where in the world we live and from where and who we buy.....
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ckobu on December 17, 2022, 11:37:12 AM
In addition to the price, availability is perhaps more important at the moment.  ;)


[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: raimondsgr on December 17, 2022, 01:12:03 PM
Hi from a new member here!

This looks like a great product, but those in the know could clarify the following. Does it still have the launchpad functionality found on the SD90, SD9 and SD60?

Best regards,
Ray
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on December 17, 2022, 02:04:04 PM
In addition to the price, availability is perhaps more important at the moment.  ;)

For the time being Yamaha's Genos has the lowest enduser selling price yet.
Availability : only 1 week.


Best regards, JH

 
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Gunnar Jonny on December 17, 2022, 09:13:29 PM
For the time being Yamaha's Genos has the lowest enduser selling price yet.
Availability : only 1 week.

That's quite natural, it's been for sale for some years now, and Genos is still in stock ...
Maybe slow sales now, and they have to get rid of the items in stock before launch any new model? 🤔😉😁
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on December 19, 2022, 08:38:39 AM
Hey Jonny :

It would be an unforgettable X-Mas and New Year's present if Yamaha should announce a new high end arranger before the end of 2022. ;)

Best wishes, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Henni on December 19, 2022, 05:21:04 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9Y-XY-_09A    "The style is in 100% midi style   I always using only the factory sounds, while I creating styles. This style is also made only by the internal sounds of the EVENT. So this is a song style, what I named it to: “Wicked Beat”"

https://youtu.be/lo86X2DJOOg

https://youtu.be/obuhK2K4dCY       "Very cool. Really.  Is it audio style?  Real chords?   No, it is not. This is a fully midi style include the drum tracks too. I used only one track for live guitar"

This product has NO EQUAL!!!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on December 19, 2022, 06:07:29 PM
ok.. about 1st and 3rd video (made by "alma tom").. I will only believe that's hand made style, if I see him playing (plus showing/playing separate tracks). Until then, it's a fake in my eyes.

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on December 19, 2022, 07:08:24 PM
Hi Guys :

The Event seems to be a very nice keyboard with a great sound.

If everything goes well my dealer will receive his first Event during the second half of January 2023.

Early February 2023 the public can play this new keyboard and
I hope their first impressions and comments will be shown on the internet.
I am looking forward to watching these video's first before jumping to any conclusion.

Plse keep in mind this keyboard is very expensive ( approx. Euro
5.000,- -) ! No speakers etc.
A lot of money for a simple, old guy like me ...😛.

JH

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Henni on December 19, 2022, 08:04:19 PM
ok.. about 1st and 3rd video (made by "alma tom").. I will only believe that's hand made style, if I see him playing (plus showing/playing separate tracks). Until then, it's a fake in my eyes.

Bogdan

Yes, I guess Sokratis' style is also "fake". New suggested marketing slogan for the Event: TO GOOD TO BE TRUE...

As soon as finances allow, I'll first have a new Event and shortly after a new Genos. That'll keep me satisfied & occupied..
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on December 19, 2022, 08:07:50 PM
Yes, I guess Sokratis' style is also "fake"....
I haven't mentioned Sokratis's videos, so please, don't misuse my words.

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Henni on December 19, 2022, 08:15:55 PM
Well, all the styles in question are in the same league & demonstrate just what could be achieved. Having played around with BIAB, I am not surprised at all. Soon other manufacturers will follow in using this concept. Mixing audio & midi allows one to have the best of both worlds.

Imagine the custom styles that will soon become available as new users come to full grips with this new product.

What amaze me even more is how clean the vocals could be extracted from these songs!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on December 20, 2022, 06:32:26 AM
Well.
Alma Tom (Thomas) is a friend of mine, and he is a good and talented musician as well as a very good programmer (style and sounds) and I think it is evident in how good he is from the full midi style he made at the Event called " Sultan of Beat" in the video Henni attached above. He is also a very good singer.
Here Thomas in two older Ketron SD9 videos
https://youtu.be/fgr6xuyvPGE
https://youtu.be/SptywBg-0Ww
So, Thomas, like me, worked on the development of the Event longer than I did. I joined the project in July 2021 (the project had started quite some time ago) and Thomas was already there and that is why he has the Event (as well as me.)
I will give some information only about the fact that the authenticity of the video I uploaded (EPIC ROCK) is being questioned. Let me also remind again that I didn't attach this video in here, but Henni did. This is important so that it is not considered that I am promoting my work or myself in here.
As well as reminding (again) that I did not open this topic of discussion.
So, to the Event to have a full Real Chord (Stereo audio Stem) in each style we don't need to do anything other than a simple copy/paste to the Event SSD and the USER MODELING/REAL CHORD folder.
For you to understand how it works, I am attaching a template from my Real Chord EPIC_ROCK video.
https://app.box.com/s/4wmrjsn971kn62vgediadtpdq58se3u7
In this case because it was mainly an "experimental style" I have made only Major and Minor versions for the time being.
«When it's done, I'll upload it again in a demo video».
However, in Event and in Real Chord (audio) we can construct up to 13 different chords (7, m7, 6, m6, sus, dim etc.)
So, the great thing here is that in every different chord there is another wav file which means that if we put our imaginations to work creatively, we can achieve a very high level of realism.
The number 130 in the name of each folder indicates the original tempo bpm at which it was recorded so that the system knows the speed to automatically synchronize it with the midi clock.
In each variation we can have a different Real Chord.
The method used is a Time Stretch so we understand that there is some limitation here as far as Real Chords are concerned to be tolerable listening mainly at lower bpm.
The tolerable range we usually have (depending on the audio content) is around -20bpm from the original tempo.
However, some efforts are already being made by the company to improve this algorithm even more.
Of course, from the factory the Event comes with a huge ready-made Real Chord palette which contains a lot of options with acoustic and electric guitars to whole music takes (mainly Country) which of course follow the chords which are impressive.
So, download my file and see how the audio chords are organized that in my case I have made with the Cubase 12 and some Spitfire Audio VST Instruments.
In this way the Event system knows the original speed so automatically after we open it and select it in any variation it is directly synchronized with the midi clock without any additional process. Just copy/paste in USER MODELING/REAL CHORD folder.
I should also say that in the same way, i.e., with a simple copy and paste, we can also copy midi files in the Modeling folder and simply open them in any variation we want, where automatically and without any other processing the midi file follows the chords of the style.
I also recently made a video about Ketron's new "MIDI" innovation called: MULTICHORDS and MULTIBASS.
Watch the video https://youtu.be/oGppdIbencU
P.S In this time I also appear in the video
Thanks
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: terryB on December 20, 2022, 08:05:18 AM
Is there such a thing as a Ketron forum where we could read about the attributes of their keyboards, rather than a Yamaha keyboard dedicated forum  8) ???

Cheers
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Henni on December 20, 2022, 09:46:23 AM
Hi terryB,

It's even easier - simply don't follow or read the topics of no interest to you, in this case only one topic. Same as I also do not read EVERY article in the newspaper although I still purchase it.

All the best,

Henni
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on December 20, 2022, 10:34:39 AM
Hey Hennie :

I understand what you are saying.

On the other hand all of us have to respect and accept this forum is a Yamaha forum.
Not all members of this forum do agree all competitor's details are to be shown here. IMHO they are right.

I am sure Sokratis will agree.
Perhaps Sokratis is willing to tell us where we can find the Event's forum ( and/or website ) where all Event's information can/will be found for all those who are interested. 

Best regards, JH

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on December 20, 2022, 10:45:31 AM
Hello Sokratis,
Thank you a lot for taking the effort for further explanation, which made me to better understand how things work on Event. Yes, you can call me sceptic or whatever... but to believe, I just need to understand things. The way Event works (in style creation) seems to be very different compared to Yamaha and that makes the whole thing "unbelievable".
I have seen too many great demos in past (also for Yamaha keyboards), but later it turned out, that not everything that was presented, can actually be created on keyboard itself. What I'm saying is, in my opinion, keyboard shouldn't be advertised for something that requires external (3rd party) software.
I can't afford TOTL keyboard like Event. However I'm always interested on latest innovations, by hoping that these innovations will one day be implemented in more affordable keyboards.

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: DerekA on December 20, 2022, 12:16:23 PM
If I'm following this properly, then what you are saying is that in effect each chord can have its own pattern within the part. So while on Yamaha you define one pattern per style part / variation, and it transposes according to the chord, the Ketron can use a selection of different patterns.

Could be interesting - but could also be overused if you're not careful
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: maartenb on December 20, 2022, 01:30:21 PM
Is there such a thing as a Ketron forum where we could read about the attributes of their keyboards, rather than a Yamaha keyboard dedicated forum  8) ???

Not to put oil on the fire, and with all due respect, but I don't understand your and some others problem with this thread.

Newly released keyboards of other brands give a peek in the possible Yamaha keyboard future. I am very grateful to Sokratis1974 for all the time and effort he puts in posting long, detailed information here, answering our questions and making videos.

The whole Event discussion is neatly isolated in one (1) thread and can be easily skipped if you're not interested.

Do you really want me to go create an account on a Ketron forum, because I can't discuss the technology of this keyboard on my beloved PSR Tutorial forum with the people I know? I hope not.


Maarten
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on December 20, 2022, 02:43:36 PM
It is obvious from the volume of forum posts on the subject that new TOTL products from Korg and Ketron and the technology they offer are of great interest to many forum members, including those who wonder and speculate how Yamaha will respond. As a moderator I currently see no downside in this as long as it remains informative, respectful, and provided no one is using this forum to actively promote these products.
It still represents a relatively modest proportion of overall forum posts, and we see no need to set up additional forum sections just to accommodate this.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Duffy on December 20, 2022, 03:24:25 PM
Is there such a thing as a Ketron forum where we could read about the attributes of their keyboards, rather than a Yamaha keyboard dedicated forum  8) ???

Cheers

There is, but it just says the same as it does on here and many members on here will be curious and will not have membership on a Ketron Forum to read it.
Presumably, you have chosen to read about a Ketron keyboard on this Yamaha keyboard Forum.
As we are on an arranger keyboard Forum, people find it interesting to see what is happening in the world of arranger keyboards.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Henni on December 20, 2022, 03:56:09 PM
If I'm following this properly, then what you are saying is that in effect each chord can have its own pattern within the part. So while on Yamaha you define one pattern per style part / variation, and it transposes according to the chord, the Ketron can use a selection of different patterns.

Could be interesting - but could also be overused if you're not careful

Hi DerekA,

From what I can make out from the videos you can have a completely different style pattern for every different chord and these presumably are also different for each variation as well. Sokratis demonstrates this nicely in his video. Really AMAZING stuff! Also it seems as if you can have different patterns for different chords also on the intros & endings.

Found yet another video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHmhKd1kBQw

Until there are more, I'll post the ones I do find for the moment. Boy, just imagine if Peter Baartmans could demonstrate all the available futures for us.

Henni
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: RONBO on December 20, 2022, 04:09:05 PM
Hello all.

Please take note that this thread has been read by almost 29,000 guests and members.

To me, this topic is interesting and also relevant

Just sayin'

regards

Ron
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rphillipchuk on December 20, 2022, 05:36:40 PM
Hello all.

Please take note that this thread has been read by almost 29,000 guests and members.

To me, this topic is interesting and also relevant

Just sayin'

regards

Ron

Well said

The Other Ron
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on December 20, 2022, 06:26:23 PM
I'd wager there was the same amount of speculative talk about the Genos on other forums months before its release. Those folks likely engaged in ideas about what Yamaha had up their sleeve and whether Korg, Roland, and other companies would answer with something of value against the Genos. It works both ways 😉.

As I mentioned earlier, the amount of "new discussions" about the Genos is waning. Our new members are most welcome and they keep us all anchored in a "Genos" mindset. Filling the remaining gap with this current hot topic keeps our forum interesting and maintains friendship and communication among members.

What else do we have to discuss? Covid, respiratory illnesses, inflation, Putin? That stuff is just depressing. I'd rather talk Genos2 versus PA5X versus Event 😀.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Henni on December 21, 2022, 01:42:43 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrFp6M3ky5w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Dg3CYtQ5jk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXFTeHXIAEo

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on December 21, 2022, 02:51:52 PM
Told us nothing. Where are the speakers on this keyboard.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Henni on December 21, 2022, 03:53:38 PM
Where are the speakers on this keyboard.

Same place as on the Genos.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on December 21, 2022, 07:05:56 PM
You can plug it into the Genos aux input just like you would a guitar, then it passes they to the external speakers.  Or use a mixer and connect it directly to the external sound system.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on December 22, 2022, 08:15:55 PM
Here is a new YouTube Ketron Event video by Sokratis Kavlentakis.  This video deals with the Ketron Event User Modeling Import Chord Midi file feature. Seems pretty straightforward. A simple midi file can be imported and used in a style on the Event to create a user song with accompaniment backing. Nice. 

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9AHVc-16ro

All the best,
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on December 23, 2022, 05:23:27 AM
Hey Mike :

Wonderful ! Thank you for sharing this video made by Sokratis.  :D

Thank you Sokratis for demonstrating this great Event's feature.  :)

Best regards, JH

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on December 23, 2022, 01:55:18 PM
I would not be interested in anything that requires you to hook up a computer. If you can't do it on the keyboard then it is not for me.
 As for taking parts of a style to make a new one this is very easily done on Yamaha Keyboards and on Genos has been make even easier.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on December 23, 2022, 03:36:07 PM
I would not be interested in anything that requires you to hook up a computer. If you can't do it on the keyboard then it is not for me.
 As for taking parts of a style to make a new one this is very easily done on Yamaha Keyboards and on Genos has been make even easier.
Dear Eileen
I totally respect your opinion.
However. You are probably wrong because everything can be done also here onboard.
Simply for those with programming knowledge many things are done easier on a computer.
As for the fact that some things are easier in Genos again allow me to disagree. And I'm talking to you from the professional's side as well developer and as you know I also have the Genos where so far I still work with it in my live performances.
I would not like to go into details, but more or less many of us know what is happening and how serious limitations for creative development (from the users) not only Genos has but also all Yamaha arrangers until now.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on December 23, 2022, 04:29:20 PM
Sokratis
I agree with you that everything I have seen so far indicates that creative use of the keyboard functionality is much improved on the Ketron compared to a Yamaha.
But the bigger question is how important is that to the average arranger buyer. The vast majority of arrangers are currently bought by people who want the instrument to be easy to operate and play, and sounds good when they do play, even if they have limited skills. They often have little or no interest in spending time becoming creative via the keyboard operating system. They would rather this was all done for them so they can just press as few buttons as possible and put their effort into just playing. An good example of this is that there are many more posts asking for a suitable style for a song than posts asking how to make or change styles.
I don’t dispute that there are also number of potential buyers who wish to be able to produce better styles, midis, voices etc etc. But they are a relatively small number. You can see it on this forum where deep discussion of keyboard functionality attracts a lot of posts - but from the same small number of members and not from the majority.  And the danger is that the technical people - advanced users like yourself - that are driving development may not think like the person that is and has been the main arranger market target. Truth is, Eileen may be much more representative of the main arranger market than they are.
It’s a thought.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on December 23, 2022, 06:34:54 PM
I quite agree on what Mike just said. But still I wonder... let me explain:
Many of us are curious when will Yamaha release next keyboard. And so we make guesses about date, pricing and improvements. But what kind of improvements are we hoping for? Sometimes I have a feeling, that (at least for majority here) there are actually no specific wishes -it looks like the only wish (or hope) there is, is that Yamaha would "surprise" us. From what I have read, Genos has very good voices, plenty of styles, keybed is good, connectivity is good... So, on what department do we hope for the surprise? Where can Genos (and it's cheaper cousins) be improved?

Speaking for me (PSR-SX that is!), besides better keybed, I would appreciate better voices. But what would really make a big change for me, is much easier style creation. And I don't mean creating drum or bass pattern. I wish for better (more authentic) styles than those on 450€ keyboards. For example, I wish my style would contain crescendo (https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/crescendo) or glissando (https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/glissando), but it's impossible to make that -at least not in a reasonable manner.

Some say "I don't care about creating styles.. there are plenty available" and I respect that. But my guess is, many didn't even try it (or they did and gave up), because it looks too complicated -which it is. What I'm saying is, if style creation (which is basic attribute of arranger keyboard) would be more intuitive, then maybe more owners would be encouraged to try it.
And that's the main reason why I'm interested on what competition does.

Just sharing my thoughts,
Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Henni on December 24, 2022, 04:14:56 AM
https://youtu.be/uQ_HMmO4ZlA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN7AJOy1Zoo
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on December 24, 2022, 06:07:34 AM
Sokratis
I agree with you that everything I have seen so far indicates that creative use of the keyboard functionality is much improved on the Ketron compared to a Yamaha.
But the bigger question is how important is that to the average arranger buyer. The vast majority of arrangers are currently bought by people who want the instrument to be easy to operate and play, and sounds good when they do play, even if they have limited skills. They often have little or no interest in spending time becoming creative via the keyboard operating system. They would rather this was all done for them so they can just press as few buttons as possible and put their effort into just playing. An good example of this is that there are many more posts asking for a suitable style for a song than posts asking how to make or change styles.
I don’t dispute that there are also number of potential buyers who wish to be able to produce better styles, midis, voices etc etc. But they are a relatively small number. You can see it on this forum where deep discussion of keyboard functionality attracts a lot of posts - but from the same small number of members and not from the majority.  And the danger is that the technical people - advanced users like yourself - that are driving development may not think like the person that is and has been the main arranger market target. Truth is, Eileen may be much more representative of the main arranger market than they are.
It’s a thought.
Mike
Dear Mike
I would totally agree with you.
And maybe the right thing would be to make a distinction between people who buy an arranger just to play and nothing more which is completely respectable and legitimate because what we care about is music, and people who want to create through this instrument. Probably, as you rightly said, the second portion of people are less, but due to the musical culture of my country (Greece) as well as all the Balkan countries, Turkey, and Arab countries, much more things are required (styles, sounds, etc.) to meet these needs and which of course, in no case can any company cover these needs. So, the solution in our case is two things: 1) Sampler which is necessary for creating new sounds that we need, 2) Many and specialized possibilities in style creation.
So, I come to the following conclusion: When we talk about a flagship arranger and especially when we talk about Arranger/Workstation then both portions of people should absolutely be covered. Because it is not possible for any company to talk about a professional flagship Arranger/Workstation and not provide you with all the tools one needs to create. Here I would also like to point out that I think the only company that provides you 100% all the tools (onboard) and the best OS environment to build (from scratch) is Korg. Regardless of the new data that Ketron brings with the Event (Real Audio Chord, Real Audio Bass, Multichord etc.) Korg is the only one that provides you 100% of what you need without the need for any third-party program, nor do you encounter any limitation in capabilities (midi programming) etc.
Of course, lately a lot of things have gone wrong with Pa5x, and it is certain that Korg was in a big hurry to release an instrument that has a 100% new operating system where many functions that Korg arranger users knew from old times are absent as well as there are still several stability problems operating system. I was lucky enough to have the Pa5x 61 in my house for a month and all this I found out as a very old Korg user. Korg has promised that everything will be solved through future updates, but the user who paid 4700€ for a Pa5x 76 is not satisfied with the company telling him that (they will) be fixed. But that is another discussion.
Finally, I would like to say that I realised that a completely civilized dialogue can take place here, and that makes me especially happy. Through our disagreements I found with pleasure that everyone when they express what they think always gets something, someone who reads it learns and personally I always revise opinions when there are civilized dialogue.
And as the ancient Greek philosopher, legislator and poet "Solon" very wisely said "Γηράσκω αεί διδασκόμενος" which means: "I'm getting old but learning all the time".
I personally learn from wherever there is something that will help me learn something that makes me revise what I currently know. So, in the essential dialogue there will always be something in which you will put we thoughts and opinion about something, in another dimension that we might not have realized on our own. And this is excellent!!
Thank you very much!!
MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on December 24, 2022, 06:19:03 AM
I quite agree on what Mike just said. But still I wonder... let me explain:
Many of us are curious when will Yamaha release next keyboard. And so we make guesses about date, pricing and improvements. But what kind of improvements are we hoping for? Sometimes I have a feeling, that (at least for majority here) there are actually no specific wishes -it looks like the only wish (or hope) there is, is that Yamaha would "surprise" us. From what I have read, Genos has very good voices, plenty of styles, keybed is good, connectivity is good... So, on what department do we hope for the surprise? Where can Genos (and it's cheaper cousins) be improved?

Speaking for me (PSR-SX that is!), besides better keybed, I would appreciate better voices. But what would really make a big change for me, is much easier style creation. And I don't mean creating drum or bass pattern. I wish for better (more authentic) styles than those on 450€ keyboards. For example, I wish my style would contain crescendo (https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/crescendo) or glissando (https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/glissando), but it's impossible to make that -at least not in a reasonable manner.

Some say "I don't care about creating styles.. there are plenty available" and I respect that. But my guess is, many didn't even try it (or they did and gave up), because it looks too complicated -which it is. What I'm saying is, if style creation (which is basic attribute of arranger keyboard) would be more intuitive, then maybe more owners would be encouraged to try it.
And that's the main reason why I'm interested on what competition does.

Just sharing my thoughts,
Bogdan
Dear Bogdan, you expressed with this opinion exactly what I had in mind!!
Respect!!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: soundphase on December 24, 2022, 06:28:46 AM
Agree with the fact a better style creator could bring new customers to arrangers.

I’m not someone who only wants to be surprised.
I want seamless sound switching, vst sound quality, and more « random » effects everywhere and not only for drums.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on December 24, 2022, 07:24:41 AM
Hi :

IMHO it is an exciting and very interesting challenge for Yamaha and especially for all endusers 2 competitors are launching new and great high end arrangers in 2023. ;)

I must admit I am very impressed by the results of both competitive companies. Congratulations ! :)

Now it is up to Yamaha to steal the show and surprise the entire Arranger World.

Last but not least it is up to all customers to make their final choice : a Genos2, a PA5X or an Event ...


Best Wishes, JH

 
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on December 24, 2022, 01:00:30 PM
Everyone has raised some interesting points in these last posts. Here are my thoughts. Companies must think of two basic things when creating any arranger.

1) Does it sound good?
2) Is it usable?

Yamaha has excelled in voice creation. Comparing them to VST voices is unfair. Although we’d like to have VST voices, it's not financially feasible for Yamaha to include them in a compact arranger. The pianos and organs are still way behind. The piano player I replaced in a band one year ago, used a Korg keyboard built in 2012. It's organs are so far superior to the Genos that it's embarrassing. The Genos pianos aren't too bad but there is room for improvement. Styles have improved a lot over the past 30 years but that is because the voices used to make them have improved. The overall structures are still 30 years old and boring, despite the addition of some new worldly styles. They still use short, repetitive phrasing. Listening to players like Peter Baartmans is a real treat but he is so far ahead of any of us (I assume) that it's nearly impossible for any of us to harness that level of potential out of the Genos. We need technological help to narrow that gap. This is achievable by understanding the second point, “Is it usable?”

For the most part, the Genos is easy to use right out of the box. After a bit of reading, one can dive into the effects and editing features. But as Sokratis mentioned, if Yamaha touts the Genos as a creative professional keyboard, then they need to provide tools that are easy to use and that mimic more conventional computer schemata. Some mention that creating or editing styles is easy. Perhaps for them. I have a learning disability (actually we all do in one form or another). A lot of members find the Style Creator to be very confusing and just not worth the effort. Many of these players are musically capable of creating excellent styles but they lack the Yamaha logic to do it. If otherwise good players, can't expand their horizons through style creation, any keyboard will become old very fast.

There is the argument that the Genos has enough tools to keep anyone busy for a lifetime. To an extent, that’s true. There is a catch though. A few years before Covid, I was playing in a blues band. Our drummer and bass player were excellent. They had good meter and were a pleasure to play with. Problem: They were boring to listen to. There was no incentive to expand my own musical horizon. That’s not an excuse but it's hard to be the only one in a band who likes to color outside the lines once in a while. During that time, I had the pleasure of sitting in with a professional and very successful band. The bass player was a seasoned professional who had started the band in the late 60s. The drummer was a young kid from Toronto who at the time, was one of the most in demand studio session players. The point is, we played many of the same songs my current band was playing but this time the rhythm section was so slick, it helped me expand my own horizons.

This post is a bit long but I'm sure you get the idea. The Genos sounds great for the most part but it is mired in old technology. Korg and Ketron seem to have moved to the “next phase,” leaving the Genos in their dust. Yamaha already has great sounds in the Genos, save for the pianos and organs – an easy fix for them. They need to revisit the overall sound, not just the solo voices. To do this, creativity must not be stifled by a substandard operating system.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on December 24, 2022, 04:23:00 PM
I see Henni already posted a link to this new Ketron Event YouTube video. I would like to post the link again here because this video really exemplifies the great sounds and features on the Ketron Event, including the Real Chord/Real Bass additions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ_HMmO4ZlA&t=54s

PS: There are English subtitles for this video. Enable the Closed Captioning (CC), Voilà!

All the best,
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Henni on December 26, 2022, 08:16:14 AM
Thank you Mike!

Here's another tad of info:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4aOrMo9Yyc
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Henni on December 27, 2022, 07:26:47 AM
https://youtu.be/ngaH8iW7WXU
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on December 27, 2022, 09:59:24 AM
Delivery status of Event has changed at Thomann from "2-3 weeks" to "Available in several months" (same as for Korg Pa5X now).
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on December 27, 2022, 12:16:34 PM
Perhaps they are waiting to hear news from Yamaha. 8)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on December 27, 2022, 12:23:05 PM
Will there be some good news from Yamaha in 2023 ?
That would be great.

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on December 27, 2022, 03:11:31 PM
Its anyone's Guess.

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on December 28, 2022, 08:27:35 AM
Mmm.. I strongly suspect that a tactical or strategic game is currently being played between the players: Ketron, Korg and Yamaha. It seems that Yamaha is keeping a close eye on the Korg and Ketron and scrutinizing their products on the dissecting table. They probably have to/want to make new adjustments, based on the presentations of Korg and Ketron, to distinguish themselves at least from Korg (and to a lesser extent from Ketron) Looks like: two fighting over a bone and the third go with it (mm.. if you know what i mean)  ;) 8)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on December 28, 2022, 08:55:17 AM
I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like that. As soon Genos was released, R&D team started to work on it's successor -it's nothing like "let's wait and see see what Korg does and we make it better". At the time Pa5X came to market, Yamaha probably already had "a working" example of next keyboard on the desk. That is, all fundamental decisions were already made -changing them would mean throwing away years of work and tons of money.

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on December 28, 2022, 09:03:08 AM
Delivery status of Event has changed at Thomann from "2-3 weeks" to "Available in several months" (same as for Korg Pa5X now).

Hey Bogdan :

The ongoing low supply of parts might be the reason of the long delay ( Ketron and Korg ) ?
Perhaps Yamaha are dealing with the same problem, who knows.

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: soundphase on December 28, 2022, 09:15:44 AM
I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like that. As soon Genos was released, R&D team started to work on it's successor -it's nothing like "let's wait and see see what Korg does and we make it better". At the time Pa5X came to market, Yamaha probably already had "a working" example of next keyboard on the desk. That is, all fundamental decisions were already made -changing them would mean throwing away years of work and tons of money.

Bogdan
It takes a long time to industrialise the manufacture of a motherboard and such specific components. This explains why when the keyboard came out, it seemed to us to use old generation components.
So I think they are working on several generations of prototypes simultaneously to test innovative solutions. They didn't wait for the Genos release to have roadmaps and prototypes for Genos 2.
The covid and the new economic situation certainly changed planned roadmaps.

But the release of the ELA-1 is a good sign. This means that Yamaha still considers these specific instruments worth selling.


Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on December 28, 2022, 11:16:50 AM
I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like that. As soon Genos was released, R&D team started to work on it's successor -it's nothing like "let's wait and see see what Korg does and we make it better". At the time Pa5X came to market, Yamaha probably already had "a working" example of next keyboard on the desk. That is, all fundamental decisions were already made -changing them would mean throwing away years of work and tons of money.

Bogdan
Thnx for your reply: I don't mean 'from scratch'. It is only logical/commercial, if you have not put your product on the market yet, to investigate whether you can make some adjustments. Something like: hey, that's smart of our competitor: see if we can implement something like this here too? So a kind of adjustments that can be implemented in the prototype without too much effort. Nothing wrong with that in itself, of course. Sort or advancing insight. Common in 'competing' products.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on December 28, 2022, 11:55:42 AM
IMHO Yamaha will follow their own strategy to develop their new high end arranger keyboard. Nothing else.

Being the Market Leader for more than 20 years,  Yamaha exactly know what the enduser needs and wants.

They are fully aware of what needs to be done to improve and to maintain their present #1 worldwide position and reputation.

Of course it is always interesting and useful for Yamaha to know what is going on in this market but they always will go their own way. ;)

Best wishes, JH



Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Henni on December 28, 2022, 12:39:46 PM
For those who want to know more: (some of the very last videos listed are re-posted so you can read the comments in the subtitles like Mike correctly suggested)

1. Settings
2. Subtitles
3. Auto
4. English


https://youtu.be/ZAtF67PcZrM

https://youtu.be/cTuuomWWB34

https://youtu.be/CQS1njl8JM4

https://youtu.be/HJDvbB7Yp0E

https://youtu.be/My1Az0xDqsw

https://youtu.be/uki-bcmmsIg

https://youtu.be/QScDR98EKNY

https://youtu.be/ioBCBakUGjg

https://youtu.be/W9COE0QFkjU

https://youtu.be/QScDR98EKNY

Ketron learned from Yamaha. 1st Time ever they keep us in the dark till the very end. And then they are in no rush to deplete their current stocks either. If you want one, get in the queue! It is just THAT good! None of the demos of the other models impress me any longer...
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on December 28, 2022, 02:10:28 PM
Well so far Ketron has not impressed me with any of its Demo's.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on December 28, 2022, 03:42:46 PM
I am not impressed by Henni's video's either.  ???
I do not speak Italian and have no clue what this gentleman is doing or explaining.

Wished there was at least an English translation/subtitling though.  ;)

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Henni on December 28, 2022, 04:06:46 PM
Jeff,

Follow my advice. Open the settings menu at the right hand bottom of utube. Select CC (Subtitles). Click on the arrow. Select Auto translate. a Menu pops up with all the languages. Select English. Now everything that is being said is printed in English on the bottom of your screen.

Wow, coming from the Audya & after playing with BIAB I am super impressed by this product. There is a huge quality difference in the style parts. Sound much, much more real.

But hey, that's just me...
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rphillipchuk on December 28, 2022, 04:09:53 PM
I am not impressed by Henni's video's either.  ???
I do not speak Italian and have no clue what this gentleman is doing or explaining.

Wished there was at least an English translation/subtitling though.  ;)

JH

Agreed,  Ketron can do a lot better if there was more organized English Tutes ...... Instead of screenshots, show a video of what you are attempting to do and have a video showing you from the back on which buttons  to press and where they are !!!!

I am so close to buy one but what is holding me back is the complete vagueness of instructions........ It's not like I can purchase this from my local music store and if I cannot understand it, I can easily return or trade !

It just baffles me why Mr Ketron is not making it a priority to produce English Professional Videos right at the start of their Campaign.

A good example of how to create a Video Tutorial is how Korg is handling this...

https://www.korg.com/caen/products/synthesizers/pa5x/videos.php

Their videos directly from Korg are outstanding.!!!!

Henni, Please show me how to use the english sub titles on the last 5 Videos..... Would love to read the english Sub Titles

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: travlin-easy on December 28, 2022, 04:38:41 PM
I have only played a Ketron once, and for just about a half-hour. To me, most of the voices sounded thin, the drums were loud and harsh, and the guitars were dreadful at best. For the most part, nothing has really changed with the newer models. Now, my dear departed friend, Don Mason, was able to tune the Ketron guitars a bit to achieve more realism, however, he was never able to get them to sound as good as Yamaha's guitars right out of the box. For me, I'll stick with Yamaha until the day I die, which is, unfortunately, not that far away. :(

One of the major problems with Ketron is support, which in the US is only available through one person, AJ. He's a nice person, I have known him for many years, but he can be somewhat difficult to get in touch with if you have a problem. There are no factory authorized service centers here in the US, other than sending the keyboard to AJ for repairs, which could be a lengthy process as he is the sole support person here. I don't know about Ketron support in other parts of the world, but I seriously doubt that there are a lot of support centers anywhere. With Yamaha, Korg and Roland, there are a large numbers of factory authorized repair centers located throughout the world, turn around time is usually fairly quick, and you can reach the representative on the telephone during normal working hours. For me, the  decision to stick with Yamaha is an easy one.

Good luck, on whatever you decide upon,

Gary 8) (The old codger.)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Henni on December 28, 2022, 04:43:57 PM
Henni, Please show me how to use the english sub titles on the last 5 Videos..... Would love to read the english Sub Titles

Okay.

1. Open this link

https://youtu.be/QScDR98EKNY

2. Click on the gear icon right bottom of screen which says "settings".

3. Select subtitles/cc

4. Select Italian(auto-generated)

5. Select subtitles/cc again.

6. Select "auto-translate"

7. Select "English"

8. Watch the video.

Please note: None of these videos were made by Ketron. They were made by users. Big difference...

The first few videos demonstrate how styles sounded on the SD9 and BK9. Then note the difference when upgraded to the Event. Now tell me again there is not a HUGE difference in sound quality!

As for support, with all my fiddling I completely messed up my HDD on my Audya. Withing days I received  two new CDs by courier which I used to re-load my HDD which restored my Audya back to normal. Note, WITHIN DAYS! And me being in South Africa! Now tell me same on any other product - I am not stupid as I read here on a daily basis.

Next I destroyed my HD by playing my Audya on my lap whilst keeping tempo with my feet shaking the arranger violently as I did so. Again, within two to three days a new solid state HDD was couriered to me which solved my problem. Please DON'T tell me about poor Ketron service as that is nothing but a big lie!

My Audya topic on the SynthZone forumn now has nearly two and a half million views - there is still HUGE interest in this product! There is NOTHING wrong with Ketron or their products. I speak from first hand experience.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rphillipchuk on December 28, 2022, 05:03:47 PM
Okay.

1. Open this link

https://youtu.be/QScDR98EKNY

2. Click on the gear icon right bottom of screen which says "settings".

3. Select subtitles/cc

4. Select Italian(auto-generated)

5. Select subtitles/cc again.

6. Select "English"

7. Watch the video.


Brilliant !!!  I never knew how to do this !

Thanks Henni
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on December 28, 2022, 05:05:47 PM
Hi Henni :

Thank you so much for the English subtitling instructions ! :)

You are very familiar with Audya / Ketron.
Most of us are not and they might it find very hard to say goodbye to Yamaha and go for an Italian brand.

It looks like you have made your decision yet and order an expensive Event in the near future, right ?

What about the Ketron's after sales service in your country, South Africa ?

Best regards, JH


Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Henni on December 28, 2022, 05:29:57 PM
Hi Jeff,

I will purchase my Event direct from Ketron or AJ. No Ketron service or agents in South Africa to my knowledge. That's what made their quick response to my problems so outstanding.

Such things do not bother me at all. As long as they react to my my problem from WHERE EVER, I am happy. And I have truly been happy with my Audya.

Cheers,

Henni
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on December 28, 2022, 07:13:08 PM
Hi Henni :

Thank you for your reaction.

I understand there is no Ketron dealer nor a Ketron service centre in your country, South Africa, am I right ?

Are you sure you can buy directly from the manufacturer Ketron in Italy ?

Will Ketron Italy not charge you the insured transport costs from Italy to South Africa ?

What about import duties and extra tax ?

Do you have to send your Event to Italy ( and back to S. Africa ), at the expense of Ketron, in case of problems during the warranty period ?

What happens after the warranty period ?

IMHO it all sounds like a very risky and a very expensive transaction. Am I wrong ?

Best regards, JH

 
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Henni on December 29, 2022, 05:33:32 AM
Hi Jeff,

Suppliers:

1. Ketron (they did supply the Audya back then, not sure they'll do same for Event).

2. AJ - I trust him 100% and he always delivers on his promises, even to his own disadvantage.

3. Frank - everyone talks VERY good about him.

Yes, I will pay for transport, import etc. But most of the above will supply at discounted price, I'm rather sure of this. This should make up for it. Never seen a Ketron product in any music store in South Africa as yet.

Note: If you search the net you can i.e. purchase a brand new Genos at a fraction of what you'll pay at the music store. I've seen so for myself.

No, I do not foresee any need for the product to be sent back for warranty issues. And if the need should arise, surely that's not at all impossible to arrange.

Cheers,

Henni
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on December 29, 2022, 07:29:43 AM
Hi Henni :

Buying a Yamaha or a Korg high end arranger keyboard in South Africa might be more expensive ( ? ) but a lot easier and less risky to find, right ?  ;)

I have been told Frank ( USA ) is not selling Ketron. AJ might be the only supplier in the US. Plse read Gary's comments.

Last but not least I wish you good luck and and a lot of fun with your new Event.  :D

Apparently the Event's delivery has been postponed for a couple of months.  ???
Perhaps Sokratis can tell you more about the present delay's situation.

Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Henni on December 29, 2022, 09:16:09 AM
Wow!!! What an upgrade from Ketron's previous best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyII8mJzgPI
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on December 29, 2022, 11:21:10 AM
Hi :

IMHO this is a " home player " demo, right ?

It looks like there is no much difference between the voice sound quality ( e.g. the sax voice ) of the Event and the SD9 of Ketron.
Being a guitar player I am not so impressed by the guitar voice sound quality. I prefer Yamaha's. A very personal opinion though. ;)

For those who want to buy a new high end keyboard soon it will not be easy to make the right choice, I guess. A PA5X or an Event ?

If I had to decide, I would wait for Yamaha's Genos2 first before making any decision.  :D
It is a matter of time and patience.

Best wishes, JH





Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on December 29, 2022, 12:27:24 PM
Hi

There is no doubt that the ketron has top quality sound as it is audio based. Must have midi as well.
The ketron is more for the 60's and 70's Generation and beyond as i have heard  rock and Earth ,Wind & Fire styles. Nice.
It does sound a little toppy on the drums, but that maybe a live style when hearing the Dire Straights demo. I suppose you can have live and studio styles then?.
My question to Socraties is ---- Would the Ketron  be suited better for players who own Cubase or similar and to work more with vst as all is Audio mainly.
I think the Genos is still tops as you can do almost everthing you want with it, but the Ketron has some nice sounds in there.

I will hang on to the Genos until another arrives because Yamaha will up their game and for UK owners Yamaha are easy to contact.
I do not understand  why the Ketron is not widley available in all countries with backup if it is that good .
My pennies worth here.


All the best
John :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on December 29, 2022, 12:46:32 PM
Keep in mind folks, all these demos are heard through YouTube, where the sound is compressed and at a wide range of EQ and volume levels. It's basically an unreliable source in which to judge any musical instrument - Genos included.

The Event has some really nice styles but it's a long way from topping the Genos on the solo instruments. They sound very dated to me. Ketron needs a professional like Baartmans to demo the Event through their website, where they have control over the sound compression and EQ. After that, if they want to recoup their investment, set up a huge dealer network, not just some wee corner in Europe! I'll wait for G2 😀.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on December 29, 2022, 01:14:30 PM
Hey Lee :

I am convinced you made the right decision.👍

Waiting for the Genos2 is the best option to make the right choice.

We already know which high end arranger competitors will launch in a couple of months but Yamaha's new baby is not born yet and the public knows nothing at all yet, not even the baby's name. :D

Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on December 29, 2022, 02:55:04 PM
We all know that we will not hear a peep from Yamaha until it is almost ready to launch and that is usually around October time.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on December 29, 2022, 03:11:44 PM
I do not understand  why the Ketron is not widley available in all countries with backup if it is that good .
My pennies worth here.
They are a small company and just don’t have the resources, width of offerings or financial power to establish global networks. Maybe they will get there but I doubt it because that takes so much capital and time. The shareholders may be happy to stay as they are rather than invest at big risk to compete toe to toe with the giants, or they may hope they get acquired by a mega Corp by having desirable technology or products …. That’s the way it works.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: RoyB on December 29, 2022, 04:07:05 PM
I do not understand  why the Ketron is not widley available in all countries with backup if it is that good .
They are a small company and just don’t have the resources, width of offerings or financial power to establish global networks. Maybe they will get there but I doubt it because that takes so much capital and time. The shareholders may be happy to stay as they are rather than invest at big risk to compete toe to toe with the giants, or they may hope they get acquired by a mega Corp by having desirable technology or products …. That’s the way it works.
Mike

I used to have a GEM WK4 Arranger from Italian manufacturer General Music. General Music I believe were, at the time, probably a bigger company and had a wider presence than Ketron, and its electric pianos were widely used by some top professionals, but it suffered from the same limitations of poor distribution and dealership network as Ketron. Despite producing some fantastic and highly regarded products, as we know, General Music are no more.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on December 29, 2022, 05:38:26 PM
General Music may be the perfect example of how small or moderate size companies can get into serious trouble if they try to expand products and global presence too quickly without having access to adequate resources. I’m sure Ketron are well aware of what happened to General Music, especially since the two companies were only about 60 miles apart.
BTW.. a small Finish company called Soundion raised funds to buy the rights from receivers to the General Music brands and technology and is currently marketing them.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on December 29, 2022, 06:07:40 PM
From Mike,
Quote
They are a small company and just don’t have the resources, width of offerings or financial power to establish global networks.
And yet they want to compete with the big guys. They should do it right or go home 😀.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on December 29, 2022, 06:59:47 PM
But are doing it right Lee, because they have been in business doing it their way for a long time. It may not suit everybody but it obviously works for them. Trying to emulate Yamaha or Korg business model without having Yamaha or Korg  resources would likely bankrupt them in a heartbeat.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on December 29, 2022, 08:23:14 PM
Agreed, Mike.

It's still unfortunate that Ketron can produce a decent keyboard that "could" satisfy thousands of people, if only those people could get one. I'm still a Yamaha fan but there is likely a huge market for the Event. The good news is, it will keep Yamaha on their toes. They won't let a tiny company out-do them on the arranger front.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Henni on December 30, 2022, 02:22:03 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuzRuAO_0Mo

https://youtu.be/gDIAn_SnYWA
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on December 30, 2022, 03:55:50 AM
Henni
The discussion on the Event has been interesting, I have followed and participated in it myself. But I am beginning to think that your barrage of Event videos may be taking it too far and starting to seem like promotion rather than information or discussion.
I think it’s time to cut this back.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Henni on December 30, 2022, 06:10:05 AM
Henni
The discussion on the Event has been interesting, I have followed and participated in it myself. But I am beginning to think that your barrage of Event videos may be taking it too far and starting to seem like promotion rather than information or discussion.
I think it’s time to cut this back.
Mike

Okay, point taken Because there are so few videos available, I up to now posted every single video I could find. I will no longer do so. I have no reason to promote this product, same as I had no reason to promote any of the other fantastic software products I posted here over all these years. I like to share all my good finds with others and so I'm sure sometimes a go a bit over the top - that's just my nature.

I did same for all the outstanding Yamaha add-ons I've found over all these years (which also found much resistance from others over here) so I am not biased in all of this. If it's good it's good - that's all - no more & no less.

But I do get & understand your point. Tx for letting me know.

Henni
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on December 30, 2022, 10:40:54 AM
Henni
The discussion on the Event has been interesting, I have followed and participated in it myself. But I am beginning to think that your barrage of Event videos may be taking it too far and starting to seem like promotion rather than information or discussion.
I think it’s time to cut this back.
Mike

I say let the people have their say.
It is great to have banter and communication.
Members will always talk about comparisons and hopefully Yamaha will see this as well
People communicating is the main thing.


All the best
john :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: tyrosman on December 30, 2022, 01:47:33 PM
what i still cant understand is to why this Ketron Event Rubbish was ever posted on the Genos Part of the forum >:( >:( enough said on the Matter
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on December 31, 2022, 12:26:22 AM
what i still cant understand is to why this Ketron Event Rubbish was ever posted on the Genos Part of the forum >:( >:( enough said on the Matter

I think one reason is that the Ketron Event is a high-end arranger like the Genos so the Genos forum is probably the best place to discuss other high-end arrangers. Since this website is basically about Yamaha keyboards only, therefore the only way to find out what other high-end arranger keyboards are out there is to post about those arranger keyboards on this forum. We all love our Genos, but it doesn't hurt to discover what the competition offers, for one, to let Yamaha staff (who undoubtedly browse this forum) what we, as Genos owners, would like to see on the Genos successor. The Ketron Event has raised the bar regarding its real audio samples technology and the actual instrument sounds are excellent to superb, ICYMI. Btw, the more I listen to the Ketron Event the more interested I have become in possibly getting one. But, I will wait a while to see what Yamaha unveils, although if Yammmie waits too long they could lose a big chunk of market share to Korg & Ketron.

Btw, here's another Ketron Event video. This video is in English.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrPaE56RQ7w&t=219s

All the best,
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Henni on December 31, 2022, 04:35:33 AM
My tip to find the newest videos on anything on utube:

1. Open utube.

2. In the search tab, type in what you are trying to find i.e. K____n E___t.

3. As soon as the results show, look just above the very top video for the "Filter" tab.

4. Select "Today"

In this way you skip all the old stuff and see only what's new.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 01, 2023, 07:57:41 AM
Delivery status of Event has changed at Thomann from "2-3 weeks" to "Available in several months" (same as for Korg Pa5X now).

Wonder what the real reason is why the Event first delivery's dates have been postponed for months now : shortage of parts and/or ... too many software or other issues ?

It looks like Yamaha's competitors, Korg ( PA5X ) and Ketron, seem to have technical problems though.  :P
Wish for them both and their ( potential ) customers the present problems will and can be solved soon.
It might be more serious than we may think, I guess.  ::)

Happy New Year, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on January 01, 2023, 11:45:55 AM
Why concern yourself with what might or might not be. Just sit back and wait. What will be will be.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Henni on January 02, 2023, 07:57:05 AM
For those who want to continue to watch this kind of topic, please go here:

http://www.synthzone.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/507351#Post507351

I'll try my best to keep it updated.

Henni
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on January 02, 2023, 12:49:29 PM
Henni, I went to that page and only found one duplicate. It's,

https://youtu.be/QScDR98EKNY

I did it by copying and pasting the links into MS Word, and then sorting them alphabetically. You scan the list and any duplicates are easily seen. Also, "youtube" is spelled as "youtu.be" in places. I don't know if that's correct.

Thanks for the link 👍.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Henni on January 02, 2023, 02:27:51 PM
Hi Lee,

Thank you so much my kindest friend - you saved me a lot of trouble. I fill fix it now.

All the best,

Henni
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on January 02, 2023, 02:53:53 PM
Glad to help, Henni! Stay well my friend.

I attached a picture of the document so you could see the list in alphabetical order.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Henni on January 03, 2023, 05:43:50 AM
FULL presentation by AJ now included for those interested. Please note, I will rarely post anything in this thread any more. Should you wish to follow the continuation of this topic in detail, then please go to the link provided.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: tyrosman on January 07, 2023, 09:45:52 AM
hi all i found this fill your boots i still think Genos is the best by far  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrPaE56RQ7w
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on January 07, 2023, 11:17:53 AM
Thank you for posting that video tyrosman
Quote
... i still think Genos is the best by far..
-can't say which is the best, but that blues accompaniment on Ketron (near the end of video) is simply stunning -never heard similar before. I think that's not only because of Ketron's different style approach, but also because of extremely good voices. I'm very impressed to say the least.

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: tyrosman on January 07, 2023, 03:14:48 PM
what is inside is Band in a box
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on January 07, 2023, 09:36:50 PM
what is inside is Band in a box
And ehhh .. the recent Yammies are inside Cubase? 🤔
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on January 07, 2023, 10:45:12 PM
My Yamaha is certainly not inside Cue Base or any other programme.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on January 07, 2023, 10:52:42 PM
Why Yamaha bought Steinberg? Don't think only for Cubase as a software synthesizer? They can use (and certainli do) lot of software elements in their new keyboards too?
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: soundphase on January 08, 2023, 07:58:39 AM
It's clear for me that our arranger is no more than a powerful computer containing a real-time software able to analyze midi messages to dynamically compute numeric waveforms from initial samples and algorithms.
Buttons and keyboard are just sensors to generate these midi messages that could otherwise be injected from a sequencer software like Cubase.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on January 08, 2023, 11:16:32 AM
Hi
Cubase and Genos work well for me.
Cubase is mainly for vst instrument midi and wave editing. Midi keyboards and Steinberg supports the Genos but asking questions about Genos on their forums gets very few answers. You have to figure it out for yourself.
The midi side for Genos has improved and editing is a breeze.
I used to have to set every track up, but now it recognizes each midi track without a template.
The time for templates is once in wave format. That would be for setting up an effect chain for tracks and master bus.
I am now getting the hang of it all and it is slowly coming together. Trying to find your workflow is the thing. also priming your ears  takes time when your older. :P
With Cubase you need a fast computer and a decent amount of ram for processing and then your problems are very small.
Hopefully the new Genos is not too far away now.
 :)
 All i want is better electric and Acoustic guitars, Strings and certain brass instruments.I cannot fault the rest.
For me The Genos is worth keeping until the next release.


All the Best
John :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: tyrosman on January 08, 2023, 12:28:06 PM
My Yamaha is certainly not inside Cue Base or any other programme.
Neither is mine :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on January 08, 2023, 01:47:50 PM
Hi
Cubase and Genos work well for me.
Cubase is mainly for vst instrument midi and wave editing. Midi keyboards and Steinberg supports the Genos but asking questions about Genos on their forums gets very few answers. You have to figure it out for yourself.
The midi side for Genos has improved and editing is a breeze.
I used to have to set every track up, but now it recognizes each midi track without a template.
The time for templates is once in wave format. That would be for setting up an effect chain for tracks and master bus.
I am now getting the hang of it all and it is slowly coming together. Trying to find your workflow is the thing. also priming your ears is takes time when your older. :P
With Cubase you need a fast computer and a decent amount of ram for processing and then your problems are very small.
Hopefully the new Genos is not too far away now.
 :)
 All i want is better electric and Acoustic guitars, Strings and certain brass instruments. I cannot fault the rest.
For me The Genos is worth keeping until the next release.
All the Best
John :)
And there's my point, John. I know you and I have tossed the idea of recording the Genos into Cubase for three years now. It's taken you a lot of that time to figure out how to do just that. Between that and the lack of discussions on the Cubase forum, Yamaha REALLY needs to provide a decent interface for such purposes or take the information about recording to a DAW out of their manual! Yes, it can be done but like their Style Creator, it's so confusing and full of trap doors that the time it takes to learn it is just not worth it. I like to spend my time behind my Genos trying to become a better player. I'm a good enough player to be recorded but I simply refuse to spend 90% of that time as a computer geek instead of a musician. To those who have mastered these things, my hat's off to you. Perhaps you could write out the procedure better than Yamaha does in their manual.

Hopefully, Genos 2 will be designed for musicians and not computer geeks when it comes to these features.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: J. Larry on January 08, 2023, 03:17:01 PM
Lee’s point------"but I simply refuse to spend 90% of that time as a computer geek instead of a musician.”  My sentiments exactly.  With tunes to learn, gig plans to make, and all the rest, let’s get straight to the music.

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ckobu on January 08, 2023, 10:50:11 PM
Communication between Genos and any DAW program should not cause any problems. It primarily depends on how well you know how to handle the DAW program, and it does not depend on the limitation on Genos. Everything can be easily set up and recorded in both directions. This is an example of how to record a MIDI channel to a separate Style Creator channel.

https://youtu.be/KY-kUes8pZU (https://youtu.be/KY-kUes8pZU)

Of course, this procedure will not be described in the Instructions for Genos because it is a procedure that is directly related to handling the DAW. The same applies to other similar actions.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on January 09, 2023, 12:39:31 AM
I agree with you Lee. I like playing music and recording it using just what I have in front of me, my Genos.
  A little time spent at first setting it up to how I wanted it and I have never looked back.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on January 09, 2023, 03:37:57 AM
First off Casper, it's NOT easy for 99% of the people who own a Genos or any arranger for that matter. Just because you were able to figure it out, doesn't solve the issue or means it's easy. Secondly, you show me where Steinberg has documented how to use their wonderful program with an arranger keyboard. If the information is there, it's new to me. You're right in that it's up to them to include that information. They just don't care enough to do it.

The method of setting up and recording any arranger keyboard resides in a technological "wasteland." Neither Yamaha nor Steinberg will devote the time to make it easy for the masses because there's no money in it for them. The fact that you and John (and darn few others) have mastered it is proof that more work needs to be done to make it easier for those of us who have the musical talent to record but not the tech skills to even get started. It's a confusing mess. I've tried a million times to get the signal paths correct. Each time I've recorded several tracks, one instrument comes back as bells and whistles or something even more stupid. Life's too short to waste time trying to achieve something that should have been properly documented.

Ironically, I've recorded synths using Cubase and other DAWS, and have over 150 hours of music tracks to my credit. I've pre-scored dozens of songs for live theatre using a simple MIDI controller keyboard and a sound module. Arrangers are a totally different animal. Their architecture is MIDI based but the setups are very different from recording synths or VST instruments.

By the way, all the best synths come with utility software that makes DAW integration easy and instant. The Genos costs far more than most synths and we get nothing for software integration. No sir, it's NOT easy and Yamaha should stop promoting their Genos as suitable for DAW recording.

Thanks for the video. I'll get a look.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 09, 2023, 07:05:37 AM
Hey Lee :

Wonder if you' d agree with my following conclusion. ???

Very simply said : an arranger keyboard is originally made for " the home player " and still is, IMHO.
The arranger is a one man band concept : a full pro orchestra, choir included, and a mic in one box.  ;)
Left hand : chords ( complete backing track ), right hand : melody and solo parts.
Voila : a complete song is made in a couple of minutes. ;D
Manufacturers are continously trying to improve the sound quality and other features by updating and upgrading all technical aspects of the arranger to keep the business running.

However, a synth is a real workstation to create music from 0 to a complete arrangement, step by step.
The synth is also a very usable instrument to play in a band.

Best regards, JH



Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: soundphase on January 09, 2023, 08:02:14 AM
If you're interested, there is another video on YouTube whose title is "La Clé De Sol Flers Démo Ketron Event Christian Delacour 2023 01 06". 
It shows a demo of the Ketron Event played as a "usual arranger" by a "usual player".
Far more interesting for me to get a good overview of the Ketron Event.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on January 09, 2023, 11:02:50 AM
I am still waiting to see a good demonstration of what all the sliders and buttons do on the Ketron and what advantage it has over other keyboards.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Gunnar Jonny on January 09, 2023, 12:33:55 PM
I am still waiting to see a good demonstration of what all the sliders and buttons do on the Ketron and what advantage it has over other keyboards.

This introduction video by AJ give a lot of info about the buttons functions.
What advantage it has over other keyboards or not will most probably depend of the users personal taste.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGG2g7d-xlk

This video is about voices:
https://youtu.be/J0y5m4dsx40

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on January 09, 2023, 01:23:22 PM
Jeff, there's no question that arrangers are meant for live playing, and synths are designed for live playing and studio work. However, Yamaha puts it right in their manual that you can record the Genos to a DAW. During down times from the stage, recording the Genos to a DAW is a great idea. It keeps our skill levels up, increases our ability to create fills and other expressive forms, gives us insight into how a passage can be better structured during live performances, let's us hear ourselves in private so we can discover how good or bad we are at certain things, lets us create recordings for posterity, and provides incredible editing functions through MIDI - something that's very difficult to do on the Genos.

There's just one problem - it's darn near impossible for most people to do it so why mention it in the manuals and promo materials?! Even recording the raw tracks on the Genos and splitting them apart in Cubase has its problems. Either Yamaha or Steinberg needs to come up with an exact procedure on how to achieve this or drop it altogether and stop pushing the Genos as a "great recording device."

Eileen, you make some excellent points. Thank you for those :). There are two types of home players. Those who want to sit down for an hour or so and play some tunes (a wonderful and satisfying activity, which is great for the fingers and mind) and those who need to keep current on about 200 songs for the various bands they play in. In other words - work. I am currently in 5 bands and am about to join a sixth. Of those, three bands will need the Genos arranger keyboard functions. The other three are just piano, e.piano, organ, brass, strings, and woodwinds. As you can see, the Genos is the perfect tool for the job. I really don't need a Montage. Problem is, I'd still like to record the Genos but...well enough said.

Now we're way off topic 🤣! Back to the world of dreams...
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 09, 2023, 01:51:58 PM
IMHO the Ketron Event is not better nor worse than all other comparable competitors ' high end arrangers. It is often a matter of experience, choice and taste.
All depends on what the player needs, expects and wants.

All  these arranger keyboards have their advantages, disadvantages, differences, pros and cons, I guess.
They have one thing almost in common though : approx. the same enduser price. ;)

The service after sales might be different depending on where the customer is living.

Finally the enduser is the decision maker and after a certain period of time this person will find out whether he/she made the right decision or not.

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on January 09, 2023, 01:54:07 PM
I have just watched the two Ketron videos and am now less impressed. Will defiantly be sticking with Yamaha.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 09, 2023, 02:15:17 PM


Most of us will prefer to stick with Yamaha, I guess.

For many years we all are so used to play Yamaha's arrangers, styles etc.and ... if one is happy there is no reason to kill the Beast.

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on January 09, 2023, 04:25:58 PM
Hi
Really there is no great hardship integrating the Genos with Cubase.
You just input the Genos by selecting Genos from a drop down list and it recognises the Input for the keyboard.
You setup the inspector now once and you can import a song that you have made on the Genos and you are good to go for editing etc.
The beauty of Cubase is you have best of both worlds, the Genos and Countless software synths like the Korg Collection, Sampletank Arturia collection.
All Cubase needs is a little RTFM!!! ;D
Once you get used to using it then you can use it's Control room for such things like Sonarworks Headphone and Speaker room correction and other things that can stay in there which do not affect mixdowns.
It all comes down to what you want to do.
I do not gig so time and bedroom studio fun is my game.Real Saxy!! ::) :P ;D


All the Best
John
Ps I am 71 now and still going for it!! Why!! "Why not"!!! :P :P :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on January 09, 2023, 04:58:56 PM
How many arranger owners do you think actually care about Cubase integration with their arranger keyboard? if I look at he posts on this subject my impression that on this forum there is less than 10 people who raise this. 
I understand that for some it is important, and it is a source of frustration to those people, but in the big picture, is it really something that Yamaha needs to have high on their list to address??
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on January 09, 2023, 05:37:59 PM
I'm mostly interested on what's possible to be done on keyboard itself and how easy/difficult is that to accomplish. That was actually the reason why I decided for an arranger. I mean, if I would be ready to spend time (or just enjoyed doing that) on DAW, then I would just buy some better midi keyboard instead -and probably save some money at that.
The possibility to connect an arranger keyboard to PC (DAW) and make further modifications is good for sure. But in my opinion, that shouldn't be seen as some special feature of keyboard itself... it's simply expected that one can do that with every decent arranger.

And (again) speaking for me, I don't need 800 voices: give me 150 exceptional voices and an easy way to modify them on keyboard. I don't need 800 styles: give me 150 unique styles which I can easy modify on keyboard. And finally, I don't need YEM: give me something that actually deserves that name. Almost forgot: give me better hardware quality  :)

Ah yes.. Ketron. I watched some videos and nothing changed: I still think it looks nice.. and that's pretty much all. I'm still waiting for "in-depth" review (impressions, opinions) from end user who's coming from Yamaha. And untill that happens, I kinda lost interest on Ketron "news" for now.

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on January 09, 2023, 06:03:18 PM
Quote
is it really something that Yamaha needs to have high on their list to address??
Obviously not. Then, they should de-emphasize it in their literature.

To John's excellent point - I think one of the big issues with Cubase in general is it was never and shall never be a program for the novice, even their entry level stuff. Steinberg could care less about the rookies. They only cater about advanced --> pro level users. This makes it even more difficult to integrate any arranger.

John, I've done exactly what you mentioned and there are still a ton of things to set up that always go wrong. There's absolutely zero help from Yamaha or Steinberg. They're useless.

I agree 100% that using a cheap MIDI controller keyboard and VST voices is the easiest route and provides a far superior sound than the Genos. Compared to decent VST voices, the Genos is not bad but lacks in many areas. The big difference is, I paid nearly $6,000 for a keyboard you're supposed to integrate with a DAW. So much for that idea >:(!

If I'm to get back into recording, I'll use my $6,000 MIDI controller and buy a bunch of VST instruments and drum patterns. That way, I'll be doubling my investment where I shouldn't have to. Hey, it's only money.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: kiplis on January 10, 2023, 05:31:10 AM
Ah yes.. Ketron. I watched some videos and nothing changed: I still think it looks nice.. and that's pretty much all. I'm still waiting for "in-depth" review (impressions, opinions) from end user who's coming from Yamaha. And untill that happens, I kinda lost interest on Ketron "news" for now.

I've had one Ketron arranger, several Tyros and now a Genos. After watching the Polish gentleman's performance where he skillfully played the Ketron Event, and reading some preliminary information, I became very interested in the Event.

After watching a few more videos, especially AjamSonic Tutorial Videos #1 and 2, I totally lost my interest. In my opinion, Event doesn't offer (to me) anything new that would make me to switch or replace Genos. But, I'm only speaking for myself now.

Let's hope that Yamaha will bring something new to the table soon, because Genos is already a bit old technology, although it is great as an INSTRUMENT.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on January 11, 2023, 02:57:25 PM
I paid nearly $6,000 for a keyboard you're supposed to integrate with a DAW. So much for that idea >:(!

Sorry for your frustration, but Cubase isn't the only DAW that can work with the Genos. I use Cakewalk Sonar Platinum, and it integrates and works just fine with the Genos. Sadly, Cakewalk owner Gibson pulled the plug several years ago, but Bandlab finally picked up the pieces and now offers Sonar for free. Mine is the non-Bandlab standalone version, updated to just before Gibson pulled the plug.

Yep, the Genos costs an arm and a leg alright, and therefore Yamaha should focus more on giving its premier flagship arranger(s) the same attention to detail that they give the workstation line. More music/keyboard professionals than ever are buying high-end arrangers to use as sketch tools to compose songs, etc., so it makes sense to expand its top-of-the-line Genos 2/3/4/5 capabilities that Yamaha invests currently in its workstation line of keyboards e.g. Motif, Montage, etc. What are we, chopped liver?  ;)

The Genos is indeed a big step up from the Tryos 5, but I don't think Yamaha is going to rest on its laurels, do you? Sounds like Lee is getting ready to toss the Genos and replace it with an excellent controller keyboard and invest in some excellent VSTi's on the market, which could save a person a lot of money (compared to buying a $6,000 Genos) if you want to go that route. In fact, you can get a beaucoup amount of decent VST for free if you know where to look. Me, I like a hardware keyboard that has everything at my fingertips. Genos raised the bar at the time, but 5 years on and with technology blazing ahead, it will be nice when Yammie finally releases a new Genos and a new Montage keyboard, hopefully sooner than later, that will incorporate some of these new technology standards currently on the market. USB 3.2 2nd Gen would be nice for starters. HDMI, a real (interchangeable) SSD connected to a SATA3 or PCI-e interface. An HD compliant LCD/OLED main screen. A QUAD/HEXA/OCTA core CPU, the faster, the better. MIDI 2.0. You get the drift.  8)

All the best,
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on January 11, 2023, 03:12:06 PM
Here is another new Ketron Event YouTube video. This video also demonstrates the Event's Vocal Harmonizer feature, which sounds very good in my opinion. Now if we could just get one of the Ketron Event owners to do a comprehensive factory sound demo. Currently, we've heard just bits and pieces of the actual internal sounds on the Event. I'd love to hear more of the Organs, Woodwinds, Brass, Strings, Accordions, Choirs, E. Guitars, Acoustic Guitars, Percussion, Bass, Pads, Synths, Drum Kits, Pianos, E. Pianos. You know, the whole kit & kaboodle.  :) Any takers? If you have an Event, make your voice and the Event's voice(s) heard on YouTube. The keyboard community will thank you. Without further ado... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YDoWoC9q9I

All the best,
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on January 11, 2023, 06:49:17 PM
Thanks, Mike. I'll have to give Cakewalk another try. If it's real easy, I can do the mechanical stuff in it and the editing in Cubase. You're right about VSTs. There is a boatload out there if you don't need Hans Zimmer quality 🤣.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on January 12, 2023, 12:39:46 AM
Hans Zimmer plays at least 5 instruments I know of, including the piano, keyboards, synthesizer, guitar, and banjo.  He is an incredibly versatile musician and can create amazing music with any of these instruments I understand. Reminds me of my Uncle, who could basically pick up any musical instrument and start playing it with proficiency. He was a college music teacher/educator and a choir director, and he could really belt out the tunes. Wonderful singing voice and an all around super nice guy. Hans Zimmer is a fantastic film score composer/music producer as you know, so yes, getting VSTi's with impeccable sound quality will cost you, but even major players in the VSTi making business have deals on their products during certain times of the year which is something to consider if you go that route.

All the best,
Mike         
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 12, 2023, 06:00:04 AM
Hi Guys :

I wonder if a pro midi keyboard will not replace the traditional, very expensive arranger keyboard of today.
Much sooner than we may expect ?
See what happened to the organ market ...

More and more the midi keyboard becomes very popular,  far less expensive, and ... the sky is the limit due to the latest and future music software development, IMHO.
Daily new software has been introduced and a lot of this software is free of charge.
Wait and see. ;)

JH




Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: soundphase on January 12, 2023, 07:34:45 AM
The main advantage of arrangers is the interface that brings together basic midi messages to produce increasingly complex combinations of midi messages from keys and buttons, tailored to the type of sound we want.

Until the controls for these high-level combinations are standardised, arrangers will not be replaced by standard tools (computers and midi keyboards).

VST is one of the first standards, but it is not yet sufficient.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 12, 2023, 10:07:58 AM
Nowadays the technology of midi keyboards ( controllers )  goes very fast though.

Today e.g. - in professional pro modern recording studio's - a midi controller keyboard is becoming more and more an additional music tool.
It might be possible, who knows,  these computer controlled instruments will replace the present synths and arranger keyboards in the near future ?

Indeed, without software the present midi controller keyboard is completely useless : at least the player needs always a laptop or pc, an external good sound card, amplifier(s) and speakers but ... without software the today's arranger keyboards are no longer so conceivable either, I guess. ;)

I have been told it looks like younger musicians prefer midi controller keyboards due to the much lower purchasing price and the limitless software challenges.

Time will tell. 

Best wishes, JH
 
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on January 12, 2023, 11:31:27 AM
...
I have been told it looks like younger musicians prefer midi controller keyboards due to the much lower purchasing price and the limitless software challenges. 
-that's an important factor for sure: one can start with few hundred bucks and make very good music. And maybe more important, "upgrade" path is much cheaper as well! -in that sense, an arranger keyboard is almost a luxury.
But... it depends on how we prefer to use our instrument. Speaking for me, when I get an itch to play a little, I turn keyboard on and start playing. Or someone says "nice keyboard you have there.. would you play something?"... power on and here we go. Is not that quick and simple in case of midi keyboard (PC power on, load software, load instruments, set this and that, everything connected?...).
I think midi keyboard is more a "studio" approach and arranger is more a "jam" approach. Ok, for "at home" player it doesn't make much difference, though.. is more a personal preference.

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on January 12, 2023, 12:33:12 PM
I hope they never phase out the arranger keyboard. About 50%-60% of my income is from the arranger side of the Genos. The other is from playing it like a regular keyboard/synth. Before the Genos versatility, I used to bring two or three keyboards to all my gigs.

I just hope Yamaha improves the piano, e.piano, and B3 sounds on Genos 2. The rest of the voices are great. The styles and their technology are now VERY dated and need a complete overhaul. This must all be done at an economical price to users. Genos is now way overpriced even without the competition.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: fozzie on January 12, 2023, 02:25:26 PM
Ketron Event Manual

https://www.ketron.it/prodotto/event#1617885421095-217f0beb-a7cf

/fozzie
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on January 12, 2023, 02:50:47 PM
Companies don’t phase things out because alternatives become available. They phase them out because we stop buying. At the moment there is still a significant growing market for arrangers, because although there are other cost effective ways to create the same ends, none are yet nearly as convenient as the arranger. And the people buying them (over 50s ) like convenience and ease of use. They are generally not going to be attracted to the multiple bits, computer software, wires everywhere modular approach. Now we might stop buying arrangers in the future because technology moves on and makes something overall better/cheaper. But that is not on the horizon yet. That’s why two companies just launched TOTL arrangers.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on January 12, 2023, 04:08:37 PM
Ketron Event Manual
Thanks for posting.
I made a quick overview.. and of course one can't get the impression of keyboard just by reading manual. But what did somehow surprise me is Event's user interface (content appearance on display): no matter in what section, content looks the same.. buttons and nothing but buttons... and all look the same. I hoped for more visual presentation, so it would be easier to see "where we are" in settings and what we're changing. It appears to me, like developer would lack "aesthetic" imagination.
As said, is just my first impression, which tells nothing about actual usability.

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 12, 2023, 04:44:51 PM
I agree, for the time being,  the arranger keyboards are easier to use than midi controller keyboards.

The latest high end arrangers are 5x more expensive than the present average midi controller keyboards. Even 88 note midi keyboards are becoming popular day by day.
As Mike mentioned in his reaction most arrangers are sold to people older than 50+. More than 85% of these buyers are home players. They are making music for fun only.

Nowadays younger people are used to work with computers / software ( BTW, most of them cannot afford to buy a new arranger of approx. + 5,000 US$ - even for most of us such an amount of money costs us an arm and a leg today -   ).

I should not be surprised the midi controller keyboard's market share might be very important in the near future.
Computer technology is growing very fast. Time does not stand stlll and ...  we ... are getting older and older.  ;)

Best regards, JH
 
 
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on January 12, 2023, 05:32:58 PM
Midi controller keyboards are getting more advanced too. Aftertouch, and other high-end features, are becoming commonplace on midi controller keyboards. The problem though is trying to play in a live setting. That involves working with a computer laptop where the VSTI's reside and ensuring everything goes off without a hitch. You need a powerful laptop with a fast SSD and a lot of DDR4/5 memory to handle the virtual instruments within your DAW. It can be done, but if you run into any type of glitch, it can be a real shock to you and your audience since you would likely have to halt the show and fix the glitch before proceeding... as your audience heads for the exit... while you fiddle around trying to get things back on track. Any who, here's another Ketron Event demo for you all to check out. The person used a custom style and voices to create a fantastic Big Band tune. The Event has a great live band sound similar to the Korg Pa5X. Yamaha has some real competition needless to say. Those Italians really know the art of music and sound reproduction.  Excellent Brass & Drums that truly raises the bar another notch in realism in my opinion. Ketron has a real hit on its hands. The Event should be their biggest selling high-end arranger thus far, I dare say.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcBm5x7Guw0

All the best,
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: travlin-easy on January 12, 2023, 05:48:09 PM
Having spent more than 3 decades as an on stage musician/singer/entertainer, there is no way in **** that a midi keyboard would appeal to me, or any other pro entertainer that I knew during that time. Those midi controller keyboards have been around for a long time, but only a handful of individuals seem to be purchasing them. I have a nephew who has one of the busiest recording studios in Baltimore, he has a midi controller keyboard, and most of the time, it sits in the corner drawing dust. It is rarely used, mainly because of the complexity of the software and the horrendous editing time involved just to create a single song. He also has a couple arranger keyboards as well, and they get used a lot more frequently.

As for Yamaha, or any other company ignoring 85 percent of it's market, us older folks, I don't think this will happen. Old folks can usually afford a $5,500 arranger keyboard because we worked hard and saved our money. We just write a check for what we need and never seem to look back.

The home organ retailers were nearly all piano stores to begin with. When Hammond and others came along with an easy to play, home organ, that were often demonstrated in large shopping mall hallways, the old folks came along and purchased those overly-priced monsters that required a large moving van and a half-dozen big men to bring it into the living room. Some sold for more than $70,000 and the market held up for years.

Then, arranger keyboard entered the picture, with prices beginning at about $500 for the Yamaha PSR-500, which I, and several other local players used for nearly a decade playing the nite club and bar circuit. We usually only updated when something that had amazing styles and voices came out, and that we could easily transition to while maintaining a relatively busy gig schedule.

From my point of view, arranger keyboards, particularly Yamaha and Korg, will be around long after my untimely passing. As for the midi keyboards, well they require a lot of time and work, both of which are 4 letter words that our younger generation, on a whole, doesn't seem to enjoy. There is no instant gratification, with a midi keyboard, but there still is when a new arranger keyboard arrives in the stores.

Just my .02 cents worth, :)

Gary 8)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on January 12, 2023, 06:29:05 PM
... he has a midi controller keyboard, and most of the time, it sits in the corner drawing dust. It is rarely used, mainly because of the complexity of the software and the horrendous editing time involved...
...
There is no instant gratification, with a midi keyboard..
Agree on that.
That's why I said midi keyboard is more for "studio work" (composing, producing) and less for (enjoying) playing only. Or as we use to say: right tool for right job  ;)

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 13, 2023, 09:58:21 AM
Hey Bogdan :

I agree with your words.

There is a huge difference between an arranger, a synth and a midi controller keyboard, as we all know.

In most cases professional musicians will go for a synth when they often are working in recording studio's and/or playing in a band, right ?

An other very important group of professionals, the giggers, will mostly go for a high end pro arranger keyboard.
This instrument offers them the choice between a one man band, playing in a band ... or both.
These people expect to play a pro instrument that is very trustworthy with a real professional sound to offer their audience an unforgettable evening.

The midi controller keyboard is more made for ( young ) musicians who love to work with software to create patiently their own music at an affordable price.

BTW : For me a professional musician is a person who earns his daily income from making music. 

Last but not least we have an other group, like most members of this forum : the home player. 
The average age is approx. 50 years old and/or older.
For them making music is a passionate hobby. Money is not their first priority.
They prefer to own the latest reliable arranger with a great sound, unlimited technical possibilities and, if possible, easy in use.

Your comments are very welcome.  :)

Best regards, JH

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on January 13, 2023, 01:20:40 PM
Quote
An other very important group of professionals, the giggers, will mostly go for a high end pro arranger keyboard.
This instrument offers them the choice between a one man band, playing in a band ... or both.
These people expect to play a pro instrument that is very trustworthy with a real professional sound to offer their audience an unforgettable evening.
This is one of the best comments on this thread. Well put, Jeff 👍.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on January 13, 2023, 03:28:32 PM
You are right there Jeff.
  The majority of keyboard owners are home players who have worked hard all there lives and then retire and a lot who used to play an instrument when younger want to return to it as they now have much more time. Over here in the UK many venues have closed or can no longer afford live players. Those people are now having to do something different to earn money but Music will always be a great hobby. Looking forward to a new Genos when it comes along.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Dnj on January 13, 2023, 04:14:00 PM
Looking forward to a new Genos when it comes along.

I am hearing "rumors" that there will not be a Genos 2 as Yamaha will be going in a new direction altogether regarding arrangers. :-\
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on January 13, 2023, 04:15:29 PM
What's the source of your information? Sounds unlikely to me.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 13, 2023, 05:29:15 PM
I am hearing "rumors" that there will not be a Genos 2 as Yamaha will be going in a new direction altogether regarding arrangers. :-\

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind Yamaha will introduce a brand new high end arranger keyboard in September ( ? ) 2023.
I am convinced this new born baby will surprise the entire, worldwide arranger keyboard community.
All customers will be spoiled, believe me ... be patient.  ;)
 

Best wishes, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on January 13, 2023, 05:53:58 PM
... new high end arranger keyboard in September ( ? ) 2023.
Jeff... could you send a letter to Yamaha and ask them to delay a little?.. I'm not sure I can save that much money in such short time.. thank you  ;D

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Bill on January 13, 2023, 07:24:45 PM
I am hearing "rumors" that there will not be a Genos 2 as Yamaha will be going in a new direction altogether regarding arrangers. :-\
I have to agree with you.  I think the new TOTL Arranger will amaze us all, however I think a lot of people will be really disappointed at the same time.  Why.  In my opinion the new board will be a total departure from the old Tyros and Genos operating systems.  In order to make significant improvements they have no choice but to scrap the Style definitions and method of using sounds.

1.  They have never been able to achieve smooth sound switching.
2.  Their method of using sound samples is way out of date, and requires lots of very expensive memory.
3.  They did not stop development of Expansion Voice packs and new Styles (more than 2 years ago) for no other reason, than to accept their they were flogging a dead horse.
4.  Trying to maintain backward compatibility like they have in the past is simply going to be to difficult to achieve within the OS it’s self.  Let’s face it, the style format is now several decades old now and there does not appear to be much more they can improve with their hands tied behind their backs. The only option is to start again with something that will last another twenty years. Let’s just hope they can achieve some limited compatibility though some external software.
5.  If they are going to appeal to the younger musician, they will have to change the OS touch interface to something considerably larger or make External Touch Screens accessible.  The current screen size is simply to small to allow in-house editing (like a DAW)

I think the new Yamaha Arranger will be well developed by now (starting since the release of the Genos) however I’m also sure they are watching very carefully the development of boards From Ketron and Korg.

Regards
Bill

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on January 13, 2023, 09:27:33 PM
That's quite intuitive, Bill. I think you're probably right with most of your comments. Yamaha has never been one to sit back in their chairs and count their profits. They know that the other players in the business will try to out do them.

I suspect the same as you. In fact I guarantee you Yamaha has Genos 2 almost ready for production. They're probably just doing the final adjustments to see if the competition has added something Yamaha didn't. In fact, I'd bet dollars to donuts, Yamaha is already at the preliminary stages of Genos 3! Yes, that's the way true leading companies work.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on January 13, 2023, 11:14:14 PM
Donny aka DNJ heard "rumors" so likely there is no solid evidence out there that Yamaha is "going to go in a different direction regarding arrangers." Until there is concrete evidence, we should take such rumors with a huge grain of salt, in my opinion. Now, it could be that someone out there has a real close connection with Yamaha Japan/Yamaha USA and who also posts on various music/keyboard forums, under an alias, and as a favor to the music community has relayed accurate insider information that Yamaha may in fact be headed in a different direction regarding arrangers. Yamaha makes employees sign non-disclosure agreements, but if the person is posting under an alias, he could theoretically side step the NDA? He may also have Yamaha's blessing to announce such information as a way to soften the blow, which indeed would be a huge shock to the keyboard community if Yamaha abandons the high-end arranger segment of the market. But for now, I think we should all relax until further 'proof' of what exactly will be Yamaha's business model going forward.

I mean, if Yammie really does quit making high-end arrangers in the way we currently understand arrangers, then what would be their replacement? If Yammie does come out with a new arranger, prototype, they must think people will like it and buy it, or why would they deviate in the first place? If they abandon arrangers altogether then we, on this forum and elsewhere, will thankfully have two other great options, namely the Korg Pa5X and the even newer and quite honestly even better sounding, Ketron Event. Btw, here's another new Ketron Event YouTube video. It focuses on the Event's Real Styles (Part 1) *NO TALKING* by Bartek Krzemiński from Poland. >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiWZF85LXAA

All the best,
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: travlin-easy on January 13, 2023, 11:24:41 PM
DNJ, whom I have known for nearly 3 decades, seems to hear a lot of rumors about Yamaha, but those sources seem to always be a bit alute. :) I still have contact with a couple individuals at Yamaha and they seem to think that Yamaha will far outpace the competition, mainly Roland and Korg when their next top-end arranger keyboard hits the market. Yamaha has been in the musical instrument biz for several decades. My first 12-string guitar was a Yamaha and was the most incredible sounding guitar I ever owned or heard. I have a lot of faith that they will introduce something very exciting and at a reasonable price.

Good luck,

Gary 8) (The old codger)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on January 13, 2023, 11:27:32 PM
Mike, even if Ketron blows Yamaha and Korg totally out of the water with the Event, it's totally moot until they can set up a decent dealer network. I don't know why a company would invest in such an undertaking but exist in a vacuum marketing wise. It makes no sense whatsoever!

The north American market consists of about 366 Million people. You'd think it would be worthwhile setting up something!!!!!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 14, 2023, 07:14:39 AM
Hi :

Nobody will/can tell/confirm where these rumors are coming from, as usual. :P The unknown rumors' suspects are dead or buried.  :)

Why should Yamaha leave the high end arranger keyboard business now ?
Yamaha are the market leader for more than 20 years and their high end arrangers have always been very popular, they have an excellent reputation and they are very reliable.

Amen !

JH

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on January 14, 2023, 08:21:32 AM
Mike, even if Ketron blows Yamaha and Korg totally out of the water with the Event, it's totally moot until they can set up a decent dealer network. I don't know why a company would invest in such an undertaking but exist in a vacuum marketing wise. It makes no sense whatsoever!

The north American market consists of about 366 Million people. You'd think it would be worthwhile setting up something!!!!!
About dealership: perhaps nowadays it is no longer always necessary to have or organize 'physical' dealership. The internet shops are flourishing worldwide for a reason. The delivery partners arrange the logistics part. Dealers are price-increasing elements in the sales markets. There are enough products (also relatively expensive) that you can only buy from the company itself (via an internet shop). Or an international internet shop (Thomann, Bax, Guitarcentre etc. etc.) An example is the computer market: parts are sold worldwide ... and a keyboard is in fact also a 'music computer'. So Ketron could certainly take such an approach. It is better to try such an instrument at home for a few weeks than to spend an hour in a physical store with a few hours drive! If you don't like it, you can return it within 30/60 days... you almost don't have to go out the door. Welcome to the wide world of internet shopping...
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 14, 2023, 10:14:13 AM
Hey Ton :

Most high end arranger keyboard's traditional buyers prefer to test their new instrument thoroughly ( in a shop ) before buying, IMHO.

If one has ordered an expensive instrument on the internet he/she has to pay a very important amount of money in advance.
When the buyer does not like the new machine he/she has to return it to the seller.
After return, the seller needs time to check if the ordered goods all came back in their original packaging and condition.
It takes ( at least ! ) 3 weeks before the buyer will get his/her money back.
Last but not least he/she cannot trade in the older arranger.

I really wonder how many members would go for such a risky purchase ? ???
Not me, would you ?

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on January 14, 2023, 11:40:01 AM
Yes, I did several times with reliable companies. No problems and I would do it again ..  ;)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on January 14, 2023, 12:25:50 PM
We are lucky here in the UK as we still have shops that will deliver and set the instrument up for you if you require it. They also offer good part exchange prices.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 14, 2023, 12:28:07 PM
@ Ton :
It is nice to hear you have met good internet purchasing experiences.  :)

I am an old man and do my expensive purchases in the old fashioned way : I try before I buy. ;)
Have a nice weekend, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on January 14, 2023, 01:16:36 PM
I understand Ton's point. If I could order an Event and have a 30 day money back guarantee, I may be tempted to try one out in that fashion.

I have auditioned many keyboards "in store" and even at the best shops, the ambient noise level is enough to be a nuisance for critical listening. Instead, my favorite store lets me take any keyboard home and try it out in my sound room. They insist I keep it for a practice or two, and get the other band members' opinions. They'll even let me take it out to a show! I've never done the latter. I don't think it's fair to make the store responsible for repairs when some drunk spills his beer on my new keyboard - although that's never happened.

And then, (as Jeff mentioned) there's the trade-in part. I have never sold a keyboard privately. I don't have time for some stranger to come into my house and play my keyboard for a few hours, and then decline it. I know the formula my store uses to calculate trade-in values, and the amount I get for my trade-in is very much dependent on how I've treated my keyboard over the years, not what some stranger is willing to pay. Sadly, despite babying my Genos, it will not be worth the usual "excellent condition" on trade, all thanks to Yamaha's sub-standard build quality.

So, internet purchase of any keyboard is off the table for me. Besides, when you buy a computer over the internet, all you need to do is look at the specs. To buy a keyboard, you need to look at the specs AND listen to what those specs can do. That's the Classical comparison of apples to oranges 😀.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 14, 2023, 02:02:19 PM
Hey Lee :

I also understand Ton's point of view ... BUT ...

The internet purchase might be a solution in some very exceptional cases however ... in general it is like buying a brand new car on the internet no one has ever seen nor touched before and the buyer cannot drive this new car, not even trade in his/her old car.
He/she is obliged to sell it privately. ::)

Not my cup of tea either.

All the best, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: travlin-easy on January 14, 2023, 04:29:11 PM
The vast majority of the shops I have dealt with for several decades have their own, in-store, sound-proof rooms where you can test any form of musical equipment. Even the local GC had this feature here in the Baltimore area. Washington Music in Rockville, Maryland has an entire segment of it's huge complex that is dedicated to arranger keyboards and synths. Music Land in Bel Air, Maryland has a dozen, sound proof rooms used for teaching and can be used to test any instrument they sell. No worries about ambient store sounds at any location I've visited, including several mom & pop stores in New Jersey and Pennsylvania.

Most, but not all, online stores offer a 30-day return policy, however, it often comes with a price, or 15 percent restocking fee and you pay the shipping charges, sometimes, both ways. That could amount to nearly $750 plus another couple hundred bucks in shipping fees and shipping insurance. Grand total for that online tryout could amount to $1,000.

Think about it!

Gary 8)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on January 14, 2023, 08:03:49 PM
Mike, even if Ketron blows Yamaha and Korg totally out of the water with the Event, it's totally moot until they can set up a decent dealer network. I don't know why a company would invest in such an undertaking but exist in a vacuum marketing wise. It makes no sense whatsoever!

The North American market consists of about 366 Million people. You'd think it would be worthwhile setting up something!!!!!

I agree, Lee. You have to realize Ketron is a relatively small company with a small footprint in the overall keyboard market. As such, they probably don't have enough revenue on hand to create a more comprehensive dealer/service network in many countries. I commend them for at least trying to have a more broad-scale approach with both dealers and services here in the USA. According to AJ, who is the Ketron USA distributor employee manager, says there will be no more shipments of the Event until March 2023. With such a long delay, many keyboardists might give up and grab a Korg Pa5X, much sooner, although Korg seems to be trickling them out slowly currently, probably because of the Operating System bugs in the current 1.1.0 OS update which came out in December but is still very buggy from what I understand and still a few missing features that Korg promised would be added... eventually.  ;)

Here is another recent Korg Pa5X YouTube video from Joh.deHeer Muziekinstrum in the Netherlands if I'm not mistaken. The demonstrator is product specialist Nico Vlemmings. Update: I stated previously that the Ketron Event sounded better than the Pa5X, but this demo undercuts my previous statement. When demonstrated by a professional keyboardist with the right recording/sound equipment setup, the Korg Pa5X really shines, and I think that's the key to discovering just how good the Pa5X really is. Here's the video link:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyDdnJ5gZCw

All the best,
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: tyrosman on January 14, 2023, 08:08:19 PM
I am hearing "rumors" that there will not be a Genos 2 as Yamaha will be going in a new direction altogether regarding arrangers. :-\
where did you hear this Donny :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: tyrosman on January 14, 2023, 08:11:12 PM
I have just watched the two Ketron videos and am now less impressed. Will defiantly be sticking with Yamaha.
same here Eileen :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on January 14, 2023, 08:39:57 PM
Most, but not all, online stores offer a 30-day return policy, however, it often comes with a price, or 15 percent restocking fee and you pay the shipping charges, sometimes, both ways. That could amount to nearly $750 plus another couple hundred bucks in shipping fees and shipping insurance. Grand total for that online tryout could amount to $1,000.

Think about it!

Gary 8)

I guess it makes sense to shop around, right, Gary? 👍 For instance, Sweetwater.com in Fort Wayne, IN has free shipping on almost everything they sell. If you do end up returning an item, they will refund the purchase price minus the cost of return shipping. Another tip is that any product you think you might want to purchase, e.g. a Korg Pa5X, etc., you should do your homework before buying. Listen to demos from experts in their field online, i.e. professional, accomplished, keyboardists with top-shelf video/recording/sound equipment in order to get a good idea of the features, functions, and if the styles, and sounds (voices) meet your strict criteria. That way, if you do decide to buy from an online retailer it's more than likely you won't need to return it and if you do return it to a reputable outfit then theoretically you're only out the return shipping cost. PS: If Yammie is still in the high-end arranger business as we know it, then there are brick and mortar stores like Guitar Center that you will likely find the Genos 2/II/ or whatever they decide to call it, in stock and ready for purchase usually shortly after Yamaha's official announcement. But, quite frankly, I don't expect the Genos successor to roll off the assembly line until sometime in 2024, but maybe Yamaha will surprise us?  :)

All the best,
Mike   
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: svpworld on January 14, 2023, 11:10:05 PM
Just thought I would put my penny's worth in as someone who also spotted this new Ketron arranger, the Event.

First impression of course is that the audio styles are and understandbly sound impressive. Of course they will, they are audio recordings of real players. You are basically listening to a digital recording, rather like a record!  However as with any audio backing, the novelty for me wore off rather quickly once I had heard a selection of the styles and a few videos using this feature. Real performances of solo instruments such as harmonica and sax in the intros and endings clearly give that 'whooo' factor the first time you hear them, but seriously I cannot see that novelty lasting very long. However if there's some highly intelligent  arranging that completely changes those solo lines then it would be interesting.

I also downloaded a hi-res image of the front panel of the Ketron Event, and that's where I lost interest.  The panel layout and UX is no way as intuitively designed and organised as Yamaha's arrangers.  A mass of closely spaced and similar shaped buttons with only the text labels giving any clue as to the function of them.  I could imagine it would take some practice to quickly locate some of those functions in a busy performance.  Most notably, no physical registration buttons that I could see - unlike the centre stage 10 illuminated buttons of the Genos.  So as a Yamaha player I didn't spot separate ending buttons for the styles (they appear to be using the same buttons as the intros), I didn't spot midi player and record buttons in one place, no registration buttons (yes I know the Event has registrations but it's not intuitive where they are controlled from).  I wonder how much deep diving is needed to use some of those performance features?   

Sonically the Event impresses from what I've heard so far in the various demo videos. However nothing compared to what virtual instruments on a computer would achieve, and I haven't heard anything yet that rivals the Genos in terms of nuance and expression.  The strad violin sounded nice though.

Given the retail price is very closely matching the Yamaha Genos, it should be interesting to see more videos from real buyers once this hits the shops.  I don't think I would be trading my Genos for one though, but plenty of inspiration for the Yamaha designers to consider when they look to designing their next flagship arranger workstation.

Regards
Simon


The extra sliders are nice, and the metal side panels are a welcome feature. Soundwise there are some nice presets from what I've heard in the demos.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 15, 2023, 07:23:31 AM
Hi Guys :

Up to now Simon, an expert some of us already know for so many years, gave me the best first detailed impression of the Event.
Thank you, Simon ! :)
 
The Event, a nice looking high end arranger with a great sound but not in the hands of an enduser yet. ???

I think it is a very wise conclusion to wait for the Genos ' successor before buying an Event or a PA5X.
It could be a terrible mistake for a Yamaha player not to wait for Yamaha's answer first ( for so many reasons we are ALL aware of ), IMHO. 

Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on January 15, 2023, 10:57:48 AM
I think you will find most Yamaha users will do just that. For me Genos is still the best keyboard out there.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on January 16, 2023, 12:02:12 AM
Hi Eileen
You are right there. The Genos is the best arranger by a mile
As you know i have been getting down to learn all about mixing etc
Now i have turned the corner after getting the hang of using Compressors, limiters, metering and referenceing.
Dynamics is most important in mixing and it took me some time getting my head around it all.
For anyone interested there is a VST plugin called AB Metric and it is worth it weight in gold, also Ian Shepard's Dynameter. Love GulfossEQ.
Now i have learnt near, far and sides, up and down perception in the stereo mix and it makes a big difference when plonking things in the stereo field. It is like painting with numbers on an Artmaster board. I can see the canvas in my head. :o

Yes some want to just get on and play the Genos especially if they gig, but i do not want that sort of life as 20 years Djing years back got me my 15 minutes.
I practice every day and after start on mixing and learning by bungling :-\ :-* along :)
My end goal is to write my own music hopefully this year , but i have to in my mind get the covers sounding similar to originals for my apprentiship at 71.
No matter what it is great fun and as you all know learning, playing and wasting lots of time keeps the brain cells going!!! :P :P ;D

The Genos is great and i cannot fault it and like you Eileen ,i will wait.
If there are any problems on the Genos, there are always a way around it with a nice cup 'a tea. :)



All the Best
John :) 8)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 16, 2023, 09:00:55 AM
Hi John :

Congratulations ! You are becoming the CC ( Cubase Champion ) of this Forum. ;)

Last year, I bought Cubase 12 for my Mac computer but I am still a dedicated win follower of XGWorks ( midi editing ) and Cakewalk by BandLab ( Sonar's successor for audio editing ).
I am used to work with these 2 progs for so many years. It is hard for me ( 75 ) to start with Cubase but ... the intention is there.  ;)

In my perception the Yamaha XGW is the best midi editing prog ever but no longer suitable for the modern styles. :'(
 
Take care, my friend ! JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: kiplis on January 16, 2023, 09:20:45 AM
Maybe a bit out of topic,

but I was thinking, while waiting something more up-to date arranger from Yamaha, perhaps it should be a good idea to change the Genos "mickey mouse" ie. GNS-MS01
speakers to something that sounds more realistic. I was wondering if these https://www.krkmusic.com/Studio-Monitors/ROKIT-5-G4 (https://www.krkmusic.com/Studio-Monitors/ROKIT-5-G4) studio monitors would be something
to test. Well, unfortunately KRK G4 only have balanced input, while Genos has unbalanced output. Any suggestions, are they any good for
Genos (with extra hardware)?
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on January 16, 2023, 09:49:47 AM
Hi Kip

I agree the Genos satalites are mickey mouse speakers
I am not a fan of KRK.
If you want flat speakers to mix songs ,Speaker Monitors are best . I use Focal Alpha 50's

For general playing i use Yamaha DXR 8 self powerered speakers

You get what you pay for with speakers and you will get quite a few answers to what is best.
Yamaha Powered speakers/monitors are good Yamaha Studio Monitors HS8.
I hear that Kali's are good.

 :) Taste and try before you buy!!!   Savoy Brown!!       Someone will know what i am saying ;D


All the best
John
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: overover on January 16, 2023, 10:08:14 AM
Off topic

Maybe a bit out of topic,

but I was thinking, while waiting something more up-to date arranger from Yamaha, perhaps it should be a good idea to change the Genos "mickey mouse" ie. GNS-MS01
speakers to something that sounds more realistic. I was wondering if these https://www.krkmusic.com/Studio-Monitors/ROKIT-5-G4 (https://www.krkmusic.com/Studio-Monitors/ROKIT-5-G4) studio monitors would be something
to test. Well, unfortunately KRK G4 only have balanced input, while Genos has unbalanced output. Any suggestions, are they any good for
Genos (with extra hardware)?

Hi kiplis,

The GNS-MS01 speaker system has a sufficiently good sound for "home players", which can be significantly improved or adjusted to your own taste with minor adjustments to the Master EQ and Master Compressor settings.

When it comes to (semi-)professional recordings/audio productions that should also sound as good as possible on other devices, good studio monitor speakers with which you can listen "analytically" are of course preferable (and also good studio headphones) .

Connecting unbalanced keyboard outputs to balanced inputs from studio monitors or an external mixer is no problem. Just make sure to use unbalanced cables. The KRK studio monitors you mentioned have a TRS/XLR combo input jack. So you use normal unbalanced instrument cables (6.3 mm mono TS jack plug on both sides). If only XLR inputs are available, use the following unbalanced cables:
6.3 mm mono TS jack plug > XLR male connector (XLR pins 1 + 3 bridged)

Note that unbalanced cables should always be as short as possible or no longer than necessary in order to minimize interference.


Best regards,
Chris
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 16, 2023, 10:48:23 AM
Very good advise, Chris ! :)

At least a home player should first try out your suggestions as far as the original Yamaha keyboard speakers are concerned, IMO.

Best wishes,

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on January 16, 2023, 11:03:15 AM
..perhaps it should be a good idea to change the Genos "mickey mouse" ie. GNS-MS01 speakers to...
Disclaimer: I haven't (couldn't) decide for external speakers yet.
I've watched many reviews and at this price range, my choice will probably be KRK Rokit 5-G4 (or Presonus Eris E5 as second choice).
My conclusion is, that all these (similar priced) 5" active monitors sound quite similar -which is to be expected. So it comes down to built & material quality (brand we trust) and features we prefer -and many times minor details can matter a lot!
Example: most active monitors have "auto-standby" feature. That is, if there's no signal after certain period of time, speaker goes into standby and when we start playing again, speaker turns back on. The problem is (or can be), there's certain delay before speaker is ready again -this is problem for some, but not for others.

What I like about KRK (besides hopefully sounding good as they say) is:
-standby time can be adjusted (or disabled)
-it has class D amplifier built in (less power draw and less heat dissipated  than class A/B amplifier -sound quality pretty much the same, though)
-bass vent is on front side (bass comes directly to listener and so speaker position doesn't matter much)

What I dislike:
-yellow speaker membranes,
-price... one should always complain about that, right?  :)

As other have mentioned, connecting unbalanced output to balanced input isn't a problem if cables are not too long (say, 2-3m).

Finally... I think GNS-MS01 can't be compared to stereo studio monitors. In case of GNS-MS01, we always hear bass from direction where subwoofer is placed -regardless of how much L or R  bass (drum, piano, etc.) is defined inside style.

Just sharing my thoughts,
Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 16, 2023, 11:32:09 AM
Hi Guys :

When I am reading your Yamaha's original external keyboard speakers' comments ( Tyros and Genos ), I wonder why Yamaha are still selling these kind of speakers whilst Yamaha are producing and selling different, high quality speakers ?

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: DerekA on January 16, 2023, 12:18:14 PM
However as with any audio backing, the novelty for me wore off rather quickly once I had heard a selection of the styles and a few videos using this feature. Real performances of solo instruments such as harmonica and sax in the intros and endings clearly give that 'whooo' factor the first time you hear them, but seriously I cannot see that novelty lasting very long. However if there's some highly intelligent  arranging that completely changes those solo lines then it would be interesting.

I agree. I can see after a (short) while any complex audio phrases in the backing would become irritating. On the Genos, I often switch off overly fiddly or noticeable style parts.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: kiplis on January 16, 2023, 12:27:01 PM
Hi all, and thank you for your comments, I agree with all of you.

I have used GNS-MS01 now for three years. Before that I had similar boxes for Tyros 5. I have also had separate studio monitors in the past for Tyros 3 and Ketron.
The only reason to use mickey mouse speakers is, that they are modest in size, and easy to place on top of the instrument. And yes, I have adjusted the EQ to my liking, and added already a 8" sub-woofer, so now my "boom" is right. How ever, the instruments does not sound quite right from the small "ears". That is why I am looking for studio monitors.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 16, 2023, 01:56:07 PM
IMHO the present Tyros and Genos satelittes are not looking bad on the instrument and  ... a woofer ... is needed.

Maybe Yamaha should redesign the complete speaker set after 20 years and improve the sound quality ? Expensive set, I guess. ::)

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: kiplis on January 16, 2023, 01:57:47 PM
So, KRK ROKIT RP5 G4 Studio Monitors are ordered, and on their way.
I will let you know my experience about them soonest  ;D
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on January 16, 2023, 02:26:40 PM
Congrats for your purchase.. I really hope you won't regret.
Yes, please let us know what your impression is!

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 18, 2023, 08:39:43 AM
https://www.ketron.it/prodotto/event#1617885421095-217f0beb-a7cf

Hi Guys :

This morning I opened the above mentioned English ( see : Inglese ) Event Manual.
This arranger does not have multipads, am I wrong ?  :P

Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on January 18, 2023, 01:22:00 PM
I find the screen a little messy. No dedicated registration button. No Multi Pads. Only Two right hand voices. Definitely not for me.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: kiplis on January 18, 2023, 01:58:50 PM
Considering preliminary information, the price may not be justified, IMHO...
The market for this keyboard may be quite limited, specially if you think about
the dealer network and service.

While waiting news from Yamaha (or perhaps one should take a look at Korg Pa5x).

Take care

-Kiplis-
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: jwyvern on January 18, 2023, 02:53:17 PM
If you read page 13 it tells you the following:

EVENT allows you to play in real time up to three parts simultaneously (VOICE 1, VOICE 2
and DRAWBAR) on the right side with the split point active, or across the entire range of the
keyboards with split deactivated, i.e., in PIANIST mode. The VOICE 1 and VOICE 2 parts are
made up of one to three sounds each, thanks to three freely assignable oscillators per voice
part. The DRAWBAR voice is dedicated exclusively to the organ sound and can be played in
conjunction with the VOICE 1 and VOICE 2 parts – that is 7 lead voices in total!

So it does NOT have "only" 2 voices like the older PSR's but is capable of layering more sounds to right of split than Genos.
Later it goes on to say that 3x Lower voices to left of split are also available, so the overall layering possibilities are way above the capability of Genos. I haven't gone any further (eg. looking into the equivalent of pads) because I am not currently so interested in the Ketron, but anyone who is genuinely interested, should read the manual carefully to determine what it really is capable of.

John
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: soundphase on January 18, 2023, 09:22:45 PM
I don’t know if it’s exactly the same topic, but a Genos voice has 8 layers in YEM. Each layer can be associated with a sound. So 4 * 8 layers simultaneously for left and right hands
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on January 19, 2023, 04:57:54 AM
Hello.
I am following the discussion that is evolves but I do not want (for many reasons) to intervene. But because sometimes things are said that are not true, I have to say certain things.

1) The Event has two separate sections of sounds on the Right hand: VOICE 1 and VOICE 2 and a separate digital Full DRAWBAR Organ on each VOICE. Each VOICE has up to 3 sounds (Multisample) where each has up to 4 stereo or mono layers so we have in total up to 12 velocity layers per VOICE.
Of course, Genos (and Yamaha in general) has a much more powerful sound engine when it comes to layers. Yamaha doesn't only have 8 layers as you said before, but it has 8 Elements (Oscillator) where theoretically we have no limitation in layers, i.e., up to 128 layers per Element.
And I use the term (theoretically) because practically it is impossible because polyphony will not hold.
But the Yamaha does not have an onboard sampler and those of us who use it know very well that it is unthinkable for an instrument like the Genos not to have an onboard sampler. This means that even if there is an error in a sample, all the work must be done from the beginning (correction in YEM and package export and installation again in Genos.

2) Event has a Registration button just to enter the registration section because everything else is done virtually from the screen.
Thanks.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 19, 2023, 07:13:57 AM
Hi Sokratis :

Many thanks for your feedback.

We all have to wait for the Genos' successor before we are comparing apples and oranges ( 2017 / 2023 ). ;)
BTW, up to now it looks like the Event is not in the hands of the endusers yet !

Apparently we might expect the new high end Yamaha arranger at the end of 2023, early 2024.
Then it might be the right time to analyze and compare both competitive arrangers, IMHO. Right ?

Best regards, JH


Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on January 19, 2023, 09:29:31 AM
Thank you Sokratis.
I'm not that familiar with voice "structures" and so I'm still tapping in the dark. If someone says keyboard has two voices for right hand, then for me (Yamaha owner) that means just that: I can play two different voices at once (i.e. Piano and Strings). At this point I'm not that interested on complexity (layers) of voices. As far I understand, voice layers improve voice reproduction (i.e. for expression & articulation), but outcome is still a single voice/instrument (on single channel). I know there might be more behind this, but my point is: Yamaha has 3 right hand voices and Event has 2, which shows Yamaha in better light -at least for "average" keyboard player.
But now comes "each voice has up to 3 sounds" and here I'm lost.. what exactly does that mean?

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Duffy on January 19, 2023, 10:04:11 AM
Thank you Sokratis.
I'm not that familiar with voice "structures" and so I'm still tapping in the dark. If someone says keyboard has two voices for right hand, then for me (Yamaha owner) that means just that: I can play two different voices at once (i.e. Piano and Strings). At this point I'm not that interested on complexity (layers) of voices. As far I understand, voice layers improve voice reproduction (i.e. for expression & articulation), but outcome is still a single voice/instrument (on single channel). I know there might be more behind this, but my point is: Yamaha has 3 right hand voices and Event has 2, which shows Yamaha in better light -at least for "average" keyboard player.
But now comes "each voice has up to 3 sounds" and here I'm lost.. what exactly does that mean?

Bogdan

It may help to say  that I have a very old Ketron (Solton) MS 40 module  (about 25 years old) and, for one right hand voice,  I have it programmed with 4 voices to play Big orchestral sounds with lots of strings and I can assure you that modern keyboards, Yamaha Genso, Korg, even my beloved Technics KN 7000 cannot come near these sounds. Not wise to compare something you know to something unknown.  Ketron really are very clever in some ways so don't underestimate what you can do with 2 voices.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Mark on January 19, 2023, 01:28:12 PM
AJ has published some in-depth tutorials about Event, the 3rd one explains exactly what is Voice and shows the voice editor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnzKWGEIHOQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnzKWGEIHOQ)

It looks like a Voice in Ketron's defiition is a combination of Yamaha's voices (R1, R2, etc). The Voice is comprised of sounds (so Ketron's 'sound' is like a Yammie's Voice :) )
Ketron also allows setting various parameters  on each sound - key ranges, velocity ranges, etc.
Very convenient I must say...
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on January 19, 2023, 02:40:27 PM
Thank you Sokratis.
I'm not that familiar with voice "structures" and so I'm still tapping in the dark. If someone says keyboard has two voices for right hand, then for me (Yamaha owner) that means just that: I can play two different voices at once (i.e. Piano and Strings). At this point I'm not that interested on complexity (layers) of voices. As far I understand, voice layers improve voice reproduction (i.e. for expression & articulation), but outcome is still a single voice/instrument (on single channel). I know there might be more behind this, but my point is: Yamaha has 3 right hand voices and Event has 2, which shows Yamaha in better light -at least for "average" keyboard player.
But now comes "each voice has up to 3 sounds" and here I'm lost.. what exactly does that mean?

Bogdan
Ok, I'll give an example. In Genos we have the Voice section where there are presets or user (expansion) sounds. Each Voice requires one or more multisamples to play. Genos theoretically has tremendous potential that I don't need to elaborate on.
So we place these Voice (in Genos) in 4 separate OTS where we can recall them at any time in a style. But beyond the 4 OTS, we can open the list of Voice and choose another Voice regardless of the ones we have stored in the OTS. So in Genos we can choose one sound at a time. In the Event, however, we can choose two different Voice at the same time and independently from the 4 Voice that can be saved here as well in each style. We also have two separate volume sliders for each sound.
Also, in the three sounds I mentioned before about the Event, in essence I mean that it contains 3 multisamples where in the Event they are called sounds.
I hope I didn't confuse you.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 19, 2023, 02:59:27 PM
Is the Event a real plug and play instrument ?

Watching AJ's last video ( #3 ), I have the impression the Event is not.  Am I wrong ?

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on January 19, 2023, 03:36:07 PM
Thanks again Sokratis
confused?.. heheh.. well, yes  :)
I think I need to wait for some video where I can see and hear what's all about -is the only way I can put pieces together in my head. And most important, so I can understand the benefits and (maybe) downsides.

Regards,
Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Duffy on January 19, 2023, 04:34:05 PM
Is the Event a real plug and play instrument ?

Watching AJ's last video ( #3 ), I have the impression the Event is not.  Am I wrong ?

JH
I would be very surprised if it isn't Jeff.
I have 2 Ketron / Solton products and, like any other arranger, you can press a voice or press a style, or press a registration and play the instrument immediately
The instrument will have 4 one touch settings for each style, which you will be able to change if you don't like them and so really, what is the difference from playing a Yamaha?
The big difference on the Event, will be the amount by which you can change things to your own liking. Some of these, you can do whilst you are still playing.
I have not seen the Event but, I am sure that you will be able to switch it on, choose a style and play it like any arranger without any problems.  Should be good.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 19, 2023, 11:30:45 PM
After reading all the information and comments in this thread, I have decided there is no reason for me to leave Yamaha.

Why should I kill a winning horse after more than 22 years ?

JH





Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on January 20, 2023, 05:09:20 AM
 Administrators forgive me. I think I haven't promoted the Event. I have only given information when asked. I just wanted you to see a video of me playing Live with the Event. My son (cameraman) also took some shots of Genos next to me.
Thank you
https://youtu.be/XowEx1G6HP0
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on January 20, 2023, 05:32:51 AM
..
............
Why should I kill a winning horse after more than 22 years ?

JH
Mmmm...because one  doubt if such an old horse will still winn..? ;D ;D
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 20, 2023, 07:18:34 AM
Hey Ton :

I am an old horse too ... ;)

Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on January 20, 2023, 10:41:26 AM
...I just wanted you to see a video of me playing Live with the Event....
Nice playing and good piano sound.
Thank you for sharing.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 20, 2023, 12:08:18 PM
Hey Bogdan :

I agree with you Sokratis presented us a nice piece of piano music here. :)

It looks to me the Event is not such an easy instrument to play though.
Sokratis is continuously touching knobs and sliders to change voices and other functions ( while he is playing ).

In other words it might take a lot of time before a player, ( who is not used to play a Ketron ), is capable to manage and operate this high end keyboard, IMHO. ::)

JH



Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on January 20, 2023, 01:03:19 PM
hi Jeff,
Yes, I noticed that too! -I think that's just his way of playing (continuously adjusting "just a little")  :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 20, 2023, 02:03:00 PM
Hey Bogdan :

Good to hear you noticed that too. Thank you ! :)
The volume balance between the backing tracks ( style ) and the piano voice also needed an adjustment, IMO.

In general the Event has a nice sound quality but it is not a typical midi instrument like a Korg or/and a Yamaha.
The Event is mainly an audio arranger. That might be the answer why this arranger needs adjustment continuously ? I do not know ... I am not an expert at all.  8)

Approx. 6 years ago Yamaha ended their audio styles' experiment and finally came back with midi styles only. No need to explain the advantage of midi, I guess.

Anyway, for me the Event is not a real plug and play arranger as far as I have heard and seen up to now ... but who am I ?

Best regards, JH
 
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on January 20, 2023, 02:23:49 PM
From my seat, I need a keyboard that can be adjusted on the fly during a show, and with both hands working the keys. It doesn't sound like that's an easy task on the Event.

Heck, I can remember when they introduced the Hold feature when a style was playing. All of a sudden we could just press the chord and move both hands above the split point instead of having to keep the left hand on the chords. That was a huge jump in technology! The controller surface of the PSRs, Tyros, and Genos are well thought out, for the better part. I'd stay with Yamaha on this.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on January 20, 2023, 04:13:29 PM
Hey Bogdan :

I agree with you Sokratis presented us a nice piece of piano music here. :)

It looks to me the Event is not such an easy instrument to play though.
Sokratis is continuously touching knobs and sliders to change voices and other functions ( while he is playing ).

In other words it might take a lot of time before a player, ( who is not used to play a Ketron ), is capable to manage and operate this high end keyboard, IMHO. ::)

JH
Hahaha No don't get confused by what I do while playing. It's just my way of managing. It has nothing to do with Event difficulty. Event behaves like a standard Arranger when playing. There is nothing special here.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 21, 2023, 09:03:19 AM
To avoid confusion it is always useful to check everything before showing a demo on Youtube, IMHO.
Viewers prefer to see both hands on the keys, they say. :)


Best wishes, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Duffy on January 21, 2023, 09:39:07 AM
I think it's very bad manners to show interest in a board and want demos, and then complain about the way the guy plays when he demos it.
The Ketron has Styles, Sounds and Registrations like any other keyboard and so, you can choose one and play it like any other keyboard. What's hard about that?
People who want to stick to their much loved Yamaha's can do that but,  I don't understand why they make such a fuss of a board which they think is inferior.
There is something for everybody out there.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on January 21, 2023, 10:14:50 AM
Sorry guys. I didn't know that I have to make a special explanation about what I'm playing.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on January 21, 2023, 11:57:28 AM
I think it is maybe not easy for people who are used to what they can do with there Yamaha keyboards when playing. One thing that would interest me is how you would change voices on a performance. On Yamaha a lot of us would set up a registration bank to suit the song we were playing we can then change this by hand or applied to a foot switch to change as we played. It could contain just one voice or all three to give a rich sound for things like bands playing. Most songs have a build up where you would want to change voices to bring this out.
  The question is then how is this done on Ketron.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 21, 2023, 03:48:49 PM
I don't understand why they make such a fuss of a board which they think is inferior.

To my knowledge there is no member of this Yamaha Forum who believes the Event, an arranger of approx. US$ 5,000 ( without speaker set nor stand ), is called " inferior ".

First impression by most people, I guess : the Event is a good looking arranger. The sound quality seems to be great. No tiltable but a small screen and no multipads available. Audio styles.
A lot of unanswered questions which can lead to misunderstandings and confusion though.
One simple question e.g. : where can a customer buy the Event in her/his country ?

For the time being only a very few ( European ? ) dealers have installed one Event in their show room but these dealers cannot tell a potential customer when the Event will be available.
Ketron promised a first delivery in December 2022 and the next shipment in March 2023, am I right ?

Perhaps a good idea ?
It might be a very useful and helpful tool if an impartial pro arranger keyboard musician would present a video ( on YouTube e.g. ) where all Event's features are shown and explained, IMO.


Best wishes, JH




Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on January 21, 2023, 06:58:26 PM
I'm sure many of you know Alois Müller on You tube. He had (or still has?) Genos, but most of his latest videos are around Korg Pa1000 and lately Korg Pa5X. Two weeks ago he visited his local store for Ketron Event presentation and there's very short video where he's trying Event for the first time.

I'm quite a fan of blues music and I must say that I never heard such authentic and good sounding accompaniment on any keyboard before. Here's the link:
Blues rhythm on Event (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBdD4gEjS1c)

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: travlin-easy on January 21, 2023, 07:28:37 PM
Bogdon, he is obviously a great player, but the keyboard sounds do not impress me as much as those I have in the past from Korg and Yamaha. In this particular instance, it's the player - not the keyboard. Years ago, I heard Don Mason playing a Ketron and everyone that has heard Don perform knows that he is the master of duplicating guitar voices. He only had the Ketron a couple months, then sold it and began using a PA4X, because the guitar sounded more realistic. However, he freely admitted to me that the Yamaha guitar voices were the most realistic, though the Ketron had better drums than all the competition.

Gary 8)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on January 21, 2023, 07:53:00 PM
hello Gary,
...In this particular instance, it's the player - not the keyboard...
Kindly disagree in this case. In this video Alois actually doesn't play much at all.. there's only small saxophone improvisation with right hand and with left hand he only changes chords (which also act as fill-ins to my ears -if you pay attention on harmonica).
In this case it's not about which keyboard is better in particular sound... I'm just saying that so far, I never heard not even similar accompaniment.

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 21, 2023, 08:11:40 PM
Hey Bogdan :

A couple of weeks ago A. Müller was invited by a local Belgian dealer ( not far away - approx. 25 km  - from my Dutch small town where I am living ).

Alois was asked to introduce the PA5X to the dealer's best keyboard customers. A very successful evening.

You are absolutely right !
Alois is a great German professional musician and one of the best arranger keyboard players I know.👍👍👍

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on January 21, 2023, 11:54:35 PM
It seemed to me like the keyboard was playing more than the player.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on January 22, 2023, 12:55:52 AM
Quote
Alois is a great German professional musician and one of the best arranger keyboard players I know.👍👍👍
I'd like to hear him actually play then 😀. He didn't really do anything in that video. I'm sure he's very good.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on January 22, 2023, 03:57:21 AM
One thing I'm noticing straight away is that the pitch bend and modulation wheels are near the top right hand corner on the Ketron Event. I hate when they do this. I have that on the PA5X 88. Extremely inconvenient in my opinion!

As a pianist I'm used to left and right, the odd button click just above the keyboard (Such as the registrations) is no problem but stretching any further for modulation is proving difficult for me.

Don't understand why Korg and Ketron aren't copying physical registration buttons, far more important than almost any other button on the keyboard. They seem like the best invention on a keyboard to me. Call them "scenes" or "sets" or whatever. Just place them between the keyboard and screen, **** it. 4 keyboard set buttons on the pa5x without any form of style control and 16 matrix pads that are impossible to program and thus not even as useful as a mere 4 multipads is just not good enough.
Having registrations on screen, if that is what the Ketron has?, I don't think would work as well during a hectic performance.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on January 22, 2023, 09:40:21 AM
It seemed to me like the keyboard was playing more than the player.

I'd like to hear him actually play then 😀. He didn't really do anything in that video...

I can't really understand such comments... If he would play an actual piece, then there would be comments like "good keyboard player can make any keyboard sound good".
It's just a short excerpt from keyboard presentation, where we can get an impression of how keyboard sounds -that's what we are interested about. And here I can only say kudos where kudos is due.

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on January 22, 2023, 01:25:19 PM
I can't really understand such comments... If he would play an actual piece, then there would be comments like "good keyboard player can make any keyboard sound good".
It's just a short excerpt from keyboard presentation, where we can get an impression of how keyboard sounds -that's what we are interested about. And here I can only say kudos where kudos is due.

Bogdan

In an ideal world a demo I guess would show both but if it's two-three minutes you can't expect this at all, agreed.

With the PA5X I remember every tom, dick and harry from small music outlets rushing online as soon as they were allowed to post demos and info from Korg, from midnight onwards and all those videos sucked. Terrible demos, terrible pathetic playing. All a rush job, you could see almost none of the people understood the keyboard better than basic information taken from the PA4X etc.

Then later on the first day of the PA5X's release Tony from Bonners came along and posted the perfect demo. He can often sell a keyboard better than the manufacturers themselves. A bit like Peter Baartmans' excellent demos for Yamaha. They make you want to play and sound just like that, even if you are never able to do so.  ;D

There is a difference between a proper product demo and just a guy's first attempt at tinkering on a new keyboard. As long as the latter isn't sold as the first, no one can really complain.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 22, 2023, 02:02:19 PM

Hi Guys :

Alois Müller was simply  " touching " the keys of the Event, not really playing.
Absolutely not a demo at all, he said.

Afterwards he confirmed he is used to work with Yamaha and Korg
arrangers.

It was the first time he saw and touched an Event and he was/is not familiar with the Event at all ( yet ).

If you might be interested in A. Müller's craftsmanship, plse visit his own YouTube sites : Alois Müller Genos.

Watch his left hand !

Your comments are very welcome.  ;)

Best regards, JH







Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on January 22, 2023, 02:20:46 PM
I can't really understand such comments... If he would play an actual piece, then there would be comments like "good keyboard player can make any keyboard sound good".
It's just a short excerpt from keyboard presentation, where we can get an impression of how keyboard sounds -that's what we are interested about. And here I can only say kudos where kudos is due.
Bogdan
Point taken Bogdan. No offence to Alois. My whole point was based on Jeff's comment, which was, "Alois is a great German professional musician and one of the best arranger keyboard players I know." It would have been nice to hear him play something interesting - not some cheesy sax solo that most beginners learn after a few months. There's nothing more pleasurable and inspiring to a musician than to hear another musician play better than him or her. I'm certain Alois is a great player. If so, then play something! If he actually played something very interesting and it was not shown, then it's the fault of the videographer and person who posted the clip. It would be nice to hear Ray Charles play Chopsticks, but I'd rather hear him play Route 66!

On that note, we are now looking at 13 pages of posts about the Event. Not once have we seen a really good demo that makes our musical juices lean away from the Genos. I just watched a video made by some Italian guy, who spent the first 30 seconds vaping. Oh yes, that's real cool. Show off your disgusting habit for 30 seconds. Then when the camera moved to his hands and the keyboard, the 1980s video camera he was using made the Event look like a semi-circle. I skipped through several bits on the time line only to hear him just speaking in Italian. I couldn't find one part where he was playing something useful and revealing about the Event. So, there we have it - another trash video about the Event.

I don't see the Event making any great headway in our market, with a sketchy dealer network that is limited to specific pockets of Europe and Ketron's failure to hire a professional player to demo this so-called "revolution in arranger technology." From what I've heard so far, the only advantage the Event has over the Genos is in the styles. If Yamaha cleans up its operating system, provides better core voices like piano and organ, and beefs up their styles with longer phrases and round robin constructions, the competition will have wasted their time. The knockout punch will come when Peter Baartmans demos the Genos 2.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on January 22, 2023, 02:38:55 PM
Quote
Then later on the first day of the PA5X's release Tony from Bonners came along and posted the perfect demo. He can often sell a keyboard better than the manufacturers themselves. A bit like Peter Baartmans' excellent demos for Yamaha. They make you want to play and sound just like that, even if you are never able to do so.
Good point, Andrew. I think any keyboard maker who releases their new product and lets a bunch of rank amateurs post terrible demo videos before the manufacture hires a pro to do that job, is just plain stupid.

I may be wrong but I don't believe Yamaha has ever put the "cart before the horse." They have never released a product without a pro-level teaser video preceding it. Within hours of its release, Baartmans or some other pro from Yamaha is seen playing the new product. After that, you start to see all the others come out of the woodwork (some very good, but most not) play the same product.

That's how a new product release should be handled. Doing it the other way around seriously delays, if not kills, any chance of that company having an impact. They may produce a somewhat decent product that appeals to several players, but they shoot themselves in the foot at the most critical point in development - getting the thing to market!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on January 22, 2023, 03:30:31 PM
I agree that we're still tapping in the dark about Event (same goes for Korg Pa5X though). It's just that if we're lucky, sometimes we can catch some interesting detail. In this case (at least for me) it was that blues accompaniment in A. Müller's video. Are there just some random phrases playing in style? Is it some audio file used for accompaniment? We don't know yet.
Right now I just assume that's how Event works and that player can modify/create styles and voices accordingly -if that's true, then Event seems to be a darn good keyboard. Because sound-wise it sure is. I have impression that Event is in many ways "different" to what we (Yamaha owners) are used to and that might be the reason to stay with Yamaha. That has nothing to do with which is better, though. I say that because there's a big chance that next Yamaha keyboard will be totally different too -is the only way to make a progress.

Just sharing my thoughts,
Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 22, 2023, 04:11:25 PM
Hey Lee :

If you might be interested in A. Müller's craftsmanship, plse visit his own YouTube sites : Alois Müller Genos.

Watch his left hand ! ;)

Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on January 22, 2023, 04:20:44 PM
I agree that we're still tapping in the dark about Event (same goes for Korg Pa5X though). It's just that if we're lucky, sometimes we can catch some interesting detail. In this case (at least for me) it was that blues accompaniment in A. Müller's video. Are there just some random phrases playing in style? Is it some audio file used for accompaniment? We don't know yet.
Right now I just assume that's how Event works and that player can modify/create styles and voices accordingly -if that's true, then Event seems to be a darn good keyboard. Because sound-wise it sure is. I have impression that Event is in many ways "different" to what we (Yamaha owners) are used to and that might be the reason to stay with Yamaha. That has nothing to do with which is better, though. I say that because there's a big chance that next Yamaha keyboard will be totally different too -is the only way to make a progress.

Just sharing my thoughts,
Bogdan

I'd imagine the next big advancement in arranger keyboards would be incorporating AI and reactive playing technology. From what I have seen the PA5X and Event appear to have none of that, nor the ability to expand into that direction.

Yamaha seemed to be going into that direction with the CVP709 and 809.

I'd expect a Genos followup, which I think will have a completely different name again, so not to confuse with the 2.0 firmware upgrade on the Genos to possibly have this quite a bit more.  :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on January 22, 2023, 04:28:39 PM
Totally agree, Bogdan. It all comes down to, "What do you need in a keyboard?"

At the moment, the Event fulfills some serious gaps in Genos technology. On the other hand, all the demos I've seen have shown the player sitting back and listening to the Event basically play itself - kind of like two pilots in a heavy aircraft monitoring everything while the airplane is on autopilot. These "players" are listening to a fancy CD player and when they do play, they don't exploit their own talent. They seem to be fascinated by the sound of the styles 🤣, which I must admit may also compel me to just sit and listen.

We'll just have to wait and see what Yamaha provides as a reply. Didn't someone already say that 🤣?
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 22, 2023, 09:33:59 PM
Hi Bogdan :

When I am listening to the Genos' songs played by A. Müller and compare the sound quality with the Event and the PA5X, I have to say the Genos' sound quality is still very good for an arranger made in 2017.

JH


Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on January 23, 2023, 12:55:31 AM
Hi Bogdan :

When I am listening to the Genos' songs played by A. Müller and compare the sound quality with the Event and the PA5X, I have to say the Genos' sound quality is still very good for an arranger made in 2017.

JH

In my opinion, soundwise, the Genos is better than the PA5X in almost every department except for strings, those are much better on the Korg (I own both). Guitars can sound good but there are remarkably few electric guitar sounds. Also acoustic pianos are in low numbers in offerings. I didn't even realise the presets sometimes use all 3-4 voices, it's like you are navigating through one touch settings if you compare to the Genos. And sometimes you are left with a split sound in the left hand and sometimes you aren't. It is confusing and doesn't make any sense to me. Yes you can change the individual voices but there is just no logic to the approach how this is done. I remember the little Korg Kross 1 synth I owned before having this same weird approach with some presets including entire beats and others just being independent voices. It's just strange and many presets being unusable. To be fair I had this as well on the Yamaha S80 but there was less of that and not as annoying somehow, those were reserved only for "performance" sounds. On the Yamaha S80 the preset buttons (pianos / organs / etc) for voices would take you to just that. On the PA5X presets take you to grouped voices. No logic.

Korg, I bet would explain this by stating those "preset" buttons are listed as keyboard "set" options but for example this: I click on Epiano and click the first in the list, it is a mixture of two epiano voices. I click guitar and click the first on the list, right hand is nylon guitar and left hand then is split for a pad sound. Is this logical to anyone? I don't think so. Without having registrations this then becomes extremely difficult to use. You can only have 4 dedicated keyboard set sounds against a song, it's like your one touch settings and you don't have direct access to individual sound presets beyond that. I don't like this at all.

Synths are ok on the Korg PA5X but more difficult to navigate through lead sounds which seem better grouped together on the Genos. This is the second Korg I have been disappointed with after ownership. At its price, I find it ridiculous to be honest. I just tried to revoice a midi today on the Korg, and although it is easier to save without that stupid "execute" step on the Genos, the result was starting to sound awful so I stopped. I didn't have that problem on the Genos last week. No more Korg for me unless it's maybe the Wavestation / Wavetable stuff.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 23, 2023, 06:31:14 AM
Thank you for your interesting feedback, AndrewKeyz. :D

It looks like the Genos ( 2017 ) is still a not to be underestimated competitor for the PA5X and the Event made in 2022/2023, right ?

Reason enough to wait for the Genos' successor before an enduser is able to make his final, best and right choice, IMO. :)

Best wishes, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on January 23, 2023, 09:06:23 AM
Thank you for your interesting feedback, AndrewKeyz. :D

It looks like the Genos ( 2017 ) is still a not to be underestimated competitor for the PA5X and the Event made in 2022/2023, right ?

Reason enough to wait for the Genos' successor before an enduser is able to make his final, best and right choice, IMO. :)

Best wishes, JH

Absolutely, no one should discount the Genos if considering between that, PA5X and Event.

I got frustrated with the PA5X after about 5 months so went back to the Genos.
The styles sound good on the PA5X, really good in certain places even, very funky basslines and inspirational, and they sound even better on the Event going by demos but if your playing isn't enjoyable then that will matter much less.

Another stupid thing on the PA5X; it can only record to MP3! No Wav!  ::) I hope this is addressed in the future but maybe not as it's written into the manual MP3 only. With all the extra expansion space (two small sd slots at the back that can take a 1TB each I believe) I don't understand why.
The keybed is also disappointing on the 88 key version, the main reason I got it. Very noisy and it is getting worse. I reckon any Fatar one will not suffice for me personally. Now looking at swapping the Korg for a Kawai or Nord Grand and use that in conjunction with the Genos. I think that might be the perfect setup for me.

Hopefully we can see the Event screen registration buttons in action. But with styles taking the attention away this may stay hidden from us.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: SciNote on January 23, 2023, 09:24:24 AM
Totally agree, Bogdan. It all comes down to, "What do you need in a keyboard?"

At the moment, the Event fulfills some serious gaps in Genos technology. On the other hand, all the demos I've seen have shown the player sitting back and listening to the Event basically play itself - kind of like two pilots in a heavy aircraft monitoring everything while the airplane is on autopilot. These "players" are listening to a fancy CD player and when they do play, they don't exploit their own talent. They seem to be fascinated by the sound of the styles 🤣, which I must admit may also compel me to just sit and listen.

We'll just have to wait and see what Yamaha provides as a reply. Didn't someone already say that 🤣?

I'm not in the market for a $5000 keyboard, but I have been following this thread just for curiosity, and I have to agree.  There is one video of the Ketron buried among these 14 pages where it is just an image of the Ketron and the song "Wicked Game" by Chris Isaak is playing in the background.  Maybe I did not take a close enough look at this video or the accompanying text, but I was asking myself, what was I looking at?  Was the instrumentation coming from the Ketron?  Yeah, if the keyboard itself made all of the backing instrumentation, using nothing but its onboard voices and styles (and not just a digital recording of the original song), then that is impressive.  And where was the voice coming from?  But from what I was seeing in the video, no one was actually playing the keyboard!

I know that with an arranger keyboard, part of the appeal is to get a full accompaniment while just playing chords.  And I know that to play a song in this fashion, it still requires talent and that a novice is not going to sound as good as an experienced player.  I also know that this may not really be different than if the keyboardist was playing with a live band and getting a full background from all of the other members of the band.  But where does it start approaching where the keyboard is essentially playing itself, and you might as well be playing a CD or MP3 of the song?

Some keyboards allow playing of the full keyboard, while it still senses what notes are played to determine what the current chord is and it plays an accompaniment based on that chord.  With a mode like that, the keyboardist can still, well, play the keyboard, while still getting a full auto accompaniment.  But what do I know?  I bet at auditions, the person playing the chord and getting the full band and complex melodies will have the fullest, most realistic sound and get the job.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on January 23, 2023, 12:17:09 PM
Of course it's impossible to expect that we would agree about which keyboard is better... it's like discussing which car is the best. Ok, we would agree that BMW is better than Fiat, but how about BMW vs Audi? -no, I'm not trying to start discussion about that  :)

Voices.. I have no idea how good Pa5X or Event voices are and I only tried Genos in store for about 15 minutes. But I do know Yamaha PSR-SX voices and all I can say is: not bad, but there's room for improvement. And because PSR-SX is based on Genos... you get the idea. At the end, that's one of the reasons why new keyboards are made.
If someone says "Genos voices are better than Pa5X", then to me, he's only saying that he prefers the sound of Genos voices. I respect that opinion, but at the end, what matter is, what voices sound better to me (or you).

...But where does it start approaching where the keyboard is essentially playing itself, and you might as well be playing a CD or MP3 of the song?...
That's something that many (who don't know about arranger keyboards) already think it's happening. That is, they think that accompaniment is pre-recorded. And the better the accompaniment (style) is made, the more they're convinced about that. And I don't blame them for thinking that way.. because we actually can use audio track that way.
Even further: few posts back I made a doubt if a style is actually used here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBdD4gEjS1c) -even I'm familiar with arranger keyboard.

However viewing from keyboard player perspective, that's quite easy to answer: if prerecorded accompaniment is used, then player must follow (adapt to) the accompaniment. And if player makes a mistake, it is usually very noticeable. In case of using a style, it's opposite: player decides what accompaniment does. This gives the player a freedom for creative playing (i.e. by repeating/inserting certain right hand riff at any time) -which can also maybe convince audience that he's actually playing.

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 23, 2023, 02:14:45 PM
AndrewKeyz is one of our Forum members who owns both arrangers : a Yamaha Genos and a Korg PA5X/88 note.

Very interesting ( for me ) to read his honest and very open comments and experiences.

It is always very useful to see and to hear a demo given by pro musicians.
These people mostly give me a very good impression how the sound quality is and which new features are added etc.

The comments given by endusers are very important though.
They are not " selling " the new arranger but sharing the pros & cons.

JH


 
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Amwilburn on January 23, 2023, 07:20:03 PM
Absolutely, no one should discount the Genos if considering between that, PA5X and Event.

I got frustrated with the PA5X after about 5 months so went back to the Genos.
The styles sound good on the PA5X, really good in certain places even, very funky basslines and inspirational, and they sound even better on the Event going by demos but if your playing isn't enjoyable then that will matter much less.

Another stupid thing on the PA5X; it can only record to MP3! No Wav!  ::) I hope this is addressed in the future but maybe not as it's written into the manual MP3 only. With all the extra expansion space (two small sd slots at the back that can take a 1TB each I believe) I don't understand why.
The keybed is also disappointing on the 88 key version, the main reason I got it. Very noisy and it is getting worse. I reckon any Fatar one will not suffice for me personally. Now looking at swapping the Korg for a Kawai or Nord Grand and use that in conjunction with the Genos. I think that might be the perfect setup for me.

Hopefully we can see the Event screen registration buttons in action. But with styles taking the attention away this may stay hidden from us.

All very true (from a dealer perspective). Yes, the Korg weighted keys are good in terms of weighting, but they are relatively slow (compared to any Yamaha with wooden keys, like P515, CVP800 series, etc) and yes they get clickier as time goes on. Not just Korg, Nord keys, and yes, any Fatar keys are like that. Not for me either; once I had a wooden key Yamaha, there was no going back to sluggish keys. I had a customer who originally pre ordered PA5x 88, but before he did I had to show him what the keys felt like (same as on Korg C1Air/G1Air. Decent, but not as fast as his acoustic grand piano) so he switched to the 76 (and immediately refunded it because it's even more complicated to use than his PA1000).  On Yamaha you just pop in your USB stick and read a style, on Korg, due to being forced to read from a fixed array, you actually have to individually* copy the styles you want into the internal fixed array, and then overwrite one of those slots (you *can* batch copy, but it overwrites the entirety of each bank, so really only useful to batch copy the 1st set of styles for each bank, the rest you have to individually copy).

Having said that, the PA5x piano sound is *fantastic* and schools the Genos, the solo strings (and even the combination string layers) are quite good, except for the higher octaves which still sound distinctly "synthy", same problem as the predecessor. And the modern pop/R&B styles are second to none. The build and finish are also far superior to the Genos... but as a consequence it weighs 10 lbs more.

I like the Classical guitars slightly more on the Pa5x (but Genos still has better steel string guitars, and shockingly, electric distorition guitars, which Korg has traditionally been superior in). Both have great electric clean guitars.  The PA5x Shakuhachi is also *miles* better than the default Genos one. EP's and Organs are good on both, but you won't have people complaining about rotary on/off being baked into the sound, as they use DSP's on all organs. And instead of having to hold the stick up for fast? You just tap the stick up once to speed up/slow down the rotary. *however* it would've made more sense to use one of the 3 assignable (articulation) buttons :p

Oh the Nord Grand is the only one that doesn't use the standard clacky Fatar keys, and the piano samples are *fantastic*. However, still not a wooden key. If you're looking for a better key feel and a better piano sound than the P515 (which is middling), try the CP88. I would've suggested one of the new wooden key Casios (PXS5000-7000), but oddly, they only offer USB B midi out, not standard 5 pin, rendering them difficult to use as a master KB.

One of my customers tried slaving a PSRsx900 from a Casio PXS1000... and weirdly it *worked* using a custom USB B to B cable. But it's not supposed to! :p
Baffling decision to leave out 5 pin midi, but *wow* are they ever compact and light. Wood/resin hybrid 88 keys weighs 25 lbs *with* built in speakers... the next lightest with built in speakers is the P515 which comes in a 49.5lbs.

If sound is more important than the key action, I'd go with the Nord Grand. If key action is most important I'd go with the CP88. If you want good key action (not as good as the Yamahas but superior to everyone else) and lightweight portability? Try one of the PXS5000/6000/7000. Crazy light. But you'll need to buy a USB B to B cable if you want to run a master/slave setup on your Genos.

Mark
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on January 23, 2023, 08:28:20 PM
All very true (from a dealer perspective). Yes, the Korg weighted keys are good in terms of weighting, but they are relatively slow (compared to any Yamaha with wooden keys, like P515, CVP800 series, etc) and yes they get clickier as time goes on. Not just Korg, Nord keys, and yes, any Fatar keys are like that. Not for me either; once I had a wooden key Yamaha, there was no going back to sluggish keys. I had a customer who originally pre ordered PA5x 88, but before he did I had to show him what the keys felt like (same as on Korg C1Air/G1Air. Decent, but not as fast as his acoustic grand piano) so he switched to the 76 (and immediately refunded it because it's even more complicated to use than his PA1000).  On Yamaha you just pop in your USB stick and read a style, on Korg, due to being forced to read from a fixed array, you actually have to individually* copy the styles you want into the internal fixed array, and then overwrite one of those slots (you *can* batch copy, but it overwrites the entirety of each bank, so really only useful to batch copy the 1st set of styles for each bank, the rest you have to individually copy).

Having said that, the PA5x piano sound is *fantastic* and schools the Genos, the solo strings (and even the combination string layers) are quite good, except for the higher octaves which still sound distinctly "synthy", same problem as the predecessor. And the modern pop/R&B styles are second to none. The build and finish are also far superior to the Genos... but as a consequence it weighs 10 lbs more.

I like the Classical guitars slightly more on the Pa5x (but Genos still has better steel string guitars, and shockingly, electric distorition guitars, which Korg has traditionally been superior in). Both have great electric clean guitars.  The PA5x Shakuhachi is also *miles* better than the default Genos one. EP's and Organs are good on both, but you won't have people complaining about rotary on/off being baked into the sound, as they use DSP's on all organs. And instead of having to hold the stick up for fast? You just tap the stick up once to speed up/slow down the rotary. *however* it would've made more sense to use one of the 3 assignable (articulation) buttons :p

Oh the Nord Grand is the only one that doesn't use the standard clacky Fatar keys, and the piano samples are *fantastic*. However, still not a wooden key. If you're looking for a better key feel and a better piano sound than the P515 (which is middling), try the CP88. I would've suggested one of the new wooden key Casios (PXS5000-7000), but oddly, they only offer USB B midi out, not standard 5 pin, rendering them difficult to use as a master KB.

One of my customers tried slaving a PSRsx900 from a Casio PXS1000... and weirdly it *worked* using a custom USB B to B cable. But it's not supposed to! :p
Baffling decision to leave out 5 pin midi, but *wow* are they ever compact and light. Wood/resin hybrid 88 keys weighs 25 lbs *with* built in speakers... the next lightest with built in speakers is the P515 which comes in a 49.5lbs.

If sound is more important than the key action, I'd go with the Nord Grand. If key action is most important I'd go with the CP88. If you want good key action (not as good as the Yamahas but superior to everyone else) and lightweight portability? Try one of the PXS5000/6000/7000. Crazy light. But you'll need to buy a USB B to B cable if you want to run a master/slave setup on your Genos.

Mark

Thanks Mark, very good advice. And indeed, your thoughts/conclusions on the Korg PA5X appear similar to mine. Will have a look at the CP88 for sure. The advantage is it will fit in the studio desk drawer I have, the Nord Grand won't.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 24, 2023, 07:09:17 AM
Hey Mark :

Thank you so much for informing this forum about your pros and cons findings between the Yamaha Genos and the Korg PA5X/88.

BTW, is it your intention to add the Ketron/Event to your arrranger's product range in the near future ?
If that might be the case, an objective, detailed dealer's comparison between the Genos and the Event would always be very welcome ( to whom it may concern ), I guess. ;)
There is no enduser's reaction of this new arranger available ( yet ).
I am still waiting for Ketron's English spoken pro video presentation. Wonder if it will ever come ? ;D

For your information, I have no intention to buy a competitive arranger keyboard. I am a traditional Yamaha customer for more than 22 years. ;)

As usual I am always reading your educational comments.  :D

Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on January 24, 2023, 04:36:08 PM
I'd expect a Genos followup, which I think will have a completely different name again, so not to confuse with the 2.0 firmware upgrade on the Genos to have this quite a bit more.  :)

Fascinating insight, Andrew. You never really know what's going through Yamaha's collective thoughts but you may be on to something. I have also suggested that Yamaha will name the Genos successor something else, but not for the reason you mentioned. But you could very well be spot on. Although, there's one possible way to remedy the current situation and that would be for Yammie to come out with a Genos OS 3.0 update. Then when they finally do release a Genos successor they could actually call it Genos 2/II/Deux and feel good about it? ;)  Or how about the Yamaha 'Ninja', keyboard edition?  8)

All the best,
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 25, 2023, 10:31:28 AM
Hi Guys :

Do ( some ? ) Genos' owners still expect a last Genos' update before Yamaha are going to launch their Genos' successor ?
Or ... did I misunderstand this message ... age problem perhaps ? Sorry !😮

Best regards, JH


Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on January 25, 2023, 11:25:10 AM
Hi Guys :

Do ( some ? ) Genos' owners still expect a last Genos' update before Yamaha are going to launch their Genos' successor ?

Or ... did I misunderstand this message ... age problem perhaps ? Sorry !😮

Best regards, JH

Personally I doubt it. There might be a bug fix update or two before the Genos successor but nothing like the 2.0 enhancements. Why would they bother? They already released all the expansions for free. I think this was possibly an admission that nothing major is coming anymore.

It's a shame in a way because so much more could be done.
I would have liked to have seen another 100 styles and some more sounds (a few more pianos, fiddle).

I still think what Yamaha will deliver in the Genos follow up (AI based reactive styles possibly) will make the Ketron's approach of live styles as a step backwards. No offence.
That is possibly what many of the Yammie product software devs are working on.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 25, 2023, 12:32:22 PM
Hey Andrew :

A long time ago Yamaha offered all their expansions free of charge.
Does it mean it is the end of these expansion packs and will the successor be completely different than the Genos with a new engine, a new styles' concept and a new brand name or
am I dreaming ?
We have to wait ( at least ) another 8 months ( September 2023 ? ) before Yamaha might introduce their new high end arranger but it could be very spectacular, I hope ... wait and see ! 🤓

Regards,
JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on January 25, 2023, 01:11:41 PM
I think Yamaha had gone as far as it wanted with expansion packs and there are so many third party packs around now to buy. They probably decided they could invest the money spent on this side into the development of future keyboards.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Gunnar Jonny on January 25, 2023, 02:47:30 PM
Hey Andrew :

A long time ago Yamaha offered all their expansions free of charge.
Does it mean it is the end of these expansion packs and will the successor be completely different than the Genos with a new engine, a new styles' concept and a new brand name or
am I dreaming ?

Or, maybe it simply mean that it is the end of the developing and production Yamaha TOTL arranger series. 🤔
I'm not sure that I would be much surprised if so...
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on January 25, 2023, 04:21:27 PM
Agree, it could just be. Why not? Or Elon Musk wants to take over. Then the keyboard will be provided with a button for Twitter and the model name will be Lexos...  ;D
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 25, 2023, 05:22:35 PM
Hey Jonny :

Interesting ... why should Yamaha consider to leave the high end arranger keyboard market ?
Yamaha have been ( and still are, right ? ) the market leader for more than 20 years ...

Best wishes,
JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Gunnar Jonny on January 25, 2023, 10:55:18 PM
Hey Jonny :

Interesting ... why should Yamaha consider to leave the high end arranger keyboard market ?

Well, if you look at the average age of the buyer / users of the high end arrangers, the sales market decrease rapidly. How big do you estimate that the percentage of the young ones that prefer to buy such arrangers is?
Back in the 80'es and up, there was a lot of 'one-man-band', duos and trios that used arrangers at all kind of gigs, now it's rarely any to see. The young ones seem to prefer other kind of equipment.
On top of that, we have the unstable situation around the world ..... 😟
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ckobu on January 25, 2023, 11:19:43 PM
I show Yamaha arrangers on my YouTube channel. Last year's analytics show that 70% of visitors are under 54 years old.

I hope Yamaha will have a new model by the end of this year and I'm sure problems like this won't happen.
https://youtu.be/SpN5qRDwLjE (https://youtu.be/SpN5qRDwLjE)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on January 26, 2023, 03:51:35 AM
I show Yamaha arrangers on my YouTube channel. Last year's analytics show that 70% of visitors are under 54 years old.

I hope Yamaha will have a new model by the end of this year and I'm sure problems like this won't happen.
https://youtu.be/SpN5qRDwLjE (https://youtu.be/SpN5qRDwLjE)

I have near 80% visitors under 54 on my channel. 85% male which is quite surprising as I know several female Genos owners.

Of course the usage of DAWs and midi controllers will have made a dent in the market over the decades but I think things have been relatively consistent over the last 10 years.

Moreover I have not seen any convincing DAW related software that works as well as a modern arranger for creating backing music.

Using samples and things like Band in a Box look pretty boring to use, nor does anyone today seem to care much about it. BIAB's interface looks pretty old fashioned and just purchasing it from the site seems overwhelming with info rather than just demoing the software possibilities quickly. It is pretty poor to say the least. When I click on the first video with what BIAB 2022 is all about I hear an avalanche of narrated information and can't hear the music at all. Madness!  >:( There might be good possibilities, but who will know about it when it is advertised this way?

(https://i.imgur.com/MF0udw4.png)

Programming backing tracks is pretty tiring as I used to find. Interesting for sure and you can learn a lot but also boring if you just want to play music.
Maybe an older demography is attracted to using arranger keyboards even in this day due to that reason - I know I am - and they will often have the money and space for one.

I don't think music keyboards are going away. Will Yamaha sell less of Genos follow up? Possibly, due to all sorts of reasons, but the tech will be used for the cheaper models later which I presume sell far better anyway and where the real money is made I bet.

Bringing this back to Ketron. I am pretty sure the next flagship arranger from Yamaha will outsell the Event massively as what has been stated here due to the lack of dealer network alone. Where I buy my keyboards / synth I can trade an old one in. There isn't a single place I can buy a Ketron Event with a trade in option as far as I can see so far. This certainly makes it less of an attractive option.

Maybe some English speaking overview videos will be coming out in the next few weeks but so far I doubt even 10% of the Genos owners around the world know about the Event.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 26, 2023, 07:20:20 AM
Thank you, Guys for this very useful / interesting information and your attachments. :)

Yamaha will announce a brand new, spectacular high end arranger ( 76 keys ) in September 2023.
Estimated Delivery : November/December 2023, early 2024.

I would not be surprised a new SX successor ( 61 keys ) will follow a year later ( 2025 ? ).

Take care, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: usaraiya on January 26, 2023, 11:46:57 AM
Thank you, Guys for this very useful / interesting information and your attachments. :)

Yamaha will announce a brand new, spectacular high end arranger ( 76 keys ) in September 2023.
Estimated Delivery : November/December 2023, early 2024.

I would not be surprised a new SX successor ( 61 keys ) will follow a year later ( 2025 ? ).

Take care, JH

Jeff,
where did you get this information? Yamaha? Or, is it pure speculation & hope?

Uday
 ???
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 26, 2023, 12:54:17 PM
 Just intuitive hope and 100% pure speculation.  :D
 Yamaha are always introducing their new high ends in September ... cross my fingers it will be 09/2023, 6 years after the Genos ....

Best regards, JH

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on January 26, 2023, 01:55:13 PM
If you remember back in the days Yamaha did not want to produce extra styles. There main interest was producing first class instruments. These style creators demand very high prices for doing this as do sampled voices. There are now other third party manufactures doing these so as I said I believe Yamaha have gone back to there original ideas.
  As to when a new keyboard comes along it is anyone's guess but I am sure there will be one.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Dnj on January 26, 2023, 02:43:55 PM
There is a reason Yamaha has waited all this time in between releases of another arranger keyboard.
After all how much better could they be compared to the Genos, and SX lines we have now?...
Personally, I think they are reassessing their ideas in R&D and we could very well be surprised at the outcome.
I also think there will be if at all a NEW Direction for Yamaha getting away from the traditional things we are all used to regarding features that are more up to today's music creation & generational needs.
First & foremost like any business all this needs to be profitable for Yamaha too thats the bottom line..

Thoughts?
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Bill on January 26, 2023, 03:03:36 PM
Hi DNJ

You seem to be thinking pretty much what I think (which is what I said in the middle of page 12 of this thread.

Bill
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on January 26, 2023, 06:59:19 PM
Personally, in my opinion, the fact that Yamaha are taking this long against their usual practice - which would have been the usual increment after 2 or 3 years, I think could suggest a different direction.

Well they better otherwise if all the hoo har everybody has been giving the Pa5x and Event then Yamaha brings out a Genos2 with 10 additional styles, another USB port,3 new SA voices and the keyboard in Pink, I think most people would be totally ****** with a gesture update where we've building up Yamaha to expect something spectacular to arrive - that may never even happen at all.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on January 27, 2023, 01:09:03 AM
Personally, in my opinion, the fact that Yamaha are taking this long against their usual practice - which would have been the usual increment after 2 or 3 years, I think could suggest a different direction.

Well they better otherwise if all the hoo har everybody has been giving the Pa5x and Event then Yamaha brings out a Genos2 with 10 additional styles, another USB port,3 new SA voices and the keyboard in Pink, I think most people would be totally ****** with a gesture update where we've building up Yamaha to expect something spectacular to arrive - that may never even happen at all.

If they made a metallic Gold edition Genos, included a style for Prince's Gold song along with another 200 new styles based on great songs and fixed seamless sound switching, personally I'd be pretty happy.  8)

(https://media4.giphy.com/media/42ECrZ0qAQfHN9Zqrr/200w.gif?cid=82a1493begoeurxz7sl6tip0qwox2za2itkz622dzocd1xs3&rid=200w.gif&ct=g)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 27, 2023, 09:28:48 AM
My Dutch dealer told me this morning he has no information ( from the Italian manufacturer ) when the Ketron/Event will be available for sale.
On his website he says : Delivery time unknown

JH

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on January 27, 2023, 09:39:10 AM
My Dutch dealer told me this morning he has no information ( from the Italian manufacturer ) when the Ketron/Event will be available for sale.
On his website he says : Delivery time unknown

JH

Thomann says 6-8 weeks whilst DV247 (many products usually ship from Germany overnight via DHL) still has 3rd of Feb launch date for me.
Both have no trade in option.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Duffy on January 27, 2023, 05:12:48 PM
Thomann says 6-8 weeks whilst DV247 (many products usually ship from Germany overnight via DHL) still has 3rd of Feb launch date for me.
Both have no trade in option.

No matter how good the Event is, it will not sell in large numbers and will never be a competitor to  Yamaha & Korg.
There are so few outlets who will sell it and none at all will do part exchange.
Ketron UK themselves refused to take used Ketrons in part exchange for new Ketron boards or modules and now, even they have closed down.
Ketron make surprisingly good instruments and then make them almost impossible to buy.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on January 27, 2023, 06:27:49 PM
Quote
Ketron make surprisingly good instruments and then make them almost impossible to buy.
That's true and very surprising. Makes you wonder why they're even in business. Developing these devices is not cheap.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on January 27, 2023, 09:08:32 PM
That's true and very surprising. Makes you wonder why they're even in business. Developing these devices is not cheap.

AJ at Ketron USA said Ketron Italy will NOT be shipping any more Events until sometime in March. Apparently Ketron is a much smaller company than I realized. There could be just a dozen or so people assembling the Events, and they probably want to have a couple of hundred or so on hand to ship out by March, which means they could be working around the clock to accomplish their goal. Now, as far as Yamaha goes, there's really no telling what's going on behind the scenes at Yamaha Japan unless, of course, someone at Yamaha USA/UK/etc., breaks the NDA or Yamaha personally starts leaking things to the media to give people a heads-up about a possible new high-end arranger coming down the pike. Remember, Yammie hasn't even hinted about a Montage replacement yet, and the Montage has been on the market a year longer than the Genos has. Now, if you've got deep pockets and don't gig and want a stellar high-end "digital piano" arranger keyboard, there's always the Yamaha CVP-805/809 to consider. It sounds better than the Genos, has new voices and about the same amount of voices as Genos, 675 Styles, has VRM (Virtual Resonance Modeling) technology used for the CFX Pianos also with Binaural Sampling (also included is the Bösendorfer Imperial Grand), 256 note polyphony with no mention of the polyphony being relegated to separate sections/areas e.g. Preset and Expansion sections on the Genos is divided i.e. 128 note (Preset) & 128 note (Expansion). So that's another huge plus regarding the CVP line, if true. 88-key Linear Graded Hammers, which is the bee's knee's if you're mainly a Pianist at heart. And the nice thing is, it doesn't seem to affect the users' ability to play other voices effortlessly.

Here's a recent video demonstrating the CVP-809 that makes that point. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RQS5fdSy6U    The CVP-805/(809 is top-of-the-line) are rather expensive, but I'm talking to those with deep pockets who no longer gig. Set it and forget it since it weighs 185 lbs (Polished finish) 181 lbs, Matte Finish. So in conclusion, if Yammie has decided to exit the TOTL arranger market, then we would still have the very popular and fantastic sounding CVP line...for people with deep pockets.  ;) Everyone else can either keep the Genos until the cows come home, or chuck the Genos and get a Pa5X or a Ketron Event that have newer technology and also sound great. Your choice.  8)

Btw, I mentioned a while back that Yamaha employees sometimes peruse the PSR Tutorial forums. When the Genos first came out, a Yamaha employee by the name of Heratch Touresian posted a few times on the forum. Previously, I had forgotten his name. He's an expert in the digital music industry (both hardware and software) who has been working for Yamaha as a technical sales specialist since 2002. I'm sure there are other Yammie employees who also check us out on occasion to see what we're up to and to get ideas of what Yamaha customers are looking for in future Yamaha keyboard products. Thought I'd throw that in. PS: If you want a fantastic deal on a Yamaha CVP-809, look no further than the Piano Guys Piano Store out of Gilbert, Arizona. They have a website: thepianoguyspianostore.com. They're currently having a sale on the CVP line. Furthermore, they beat Sweetwater.com price by a lot, FYI. I'm not sure if they ship internationally, though. Enjoy whatever you play! And let's all hope Yamaha hasn't given up on top-of-the-line arranger keyboards. September 2023 sounds okay with me, if true.  :) Remember the NAMM 2023 trade show runs April 13-15 so perhaps Yamaha will reveal a Genos successor there? 👍 

All the best, Mike

 
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Bill on January 27, 2023, 09:15:42 PM
Latest video from AJ First and last parts just playing. The middle section is a tutorial on Styles.

https://youtu.be/HRTKta4MZ3Q

Bill
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Bill Grosse on January 27, 2023, 09:33:59 PM
The Pandemic has changed everything. Japan just this week lifted their masking rules. No doubt many of Yamaha's chips are made outside Japan and everyone knows about the chip shortages.

Bill G
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: RONBO on January 27, 2023, 09:47:19 PM
This may be off topic, but a great big Hello goes out to Bill Grosse.

Nice to hear from you.

I guess rumours of your death were greatly exgadurated.

All the best to you

Regards

Ron

PS. Bill was our go-to guy a few years back
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on January 27, 2023, 10:57:59 PM
It’s not all that uncommon for some of the worlds top musical instruments to be made by very small companies with very limited support and distribution. Eg …Pianos - Fazioli (Italy), Stewart and sons (Australia) - guitars - Gearge Lowden (Ireland). These instruments are all rated among the best of the best by those in the know, yet most people will never have heard of them, far less been lucky enough to own or play one. All individually made hand built instruments, not household names and I’m sure there are many others.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on January 28, 2023, 03:17:16 AM
AJ at Ketron USA said Ketron Italy will NOT be shipping any more Events until sometime in March. Apparently Ketron is a much smaller company than I realized. There could be just a dozen or so people assembling the Events, and they probably want to have a couple of hundred or so on hand to ship out by March, which means they could be working around the clock to accomplish their goal. Now, as far as Yamaha goes, there's really no telling what's going on behind the scenes at Yamaha Japan unless, of course, someone at Yamaha USA/UK/etc., breaks the NDA or Yamaha personally starts leaking things to the media to give people a heads-up about a possible new high-end arranger coming down the pike. Remember, Yammie hasn't even hinted about a Montage replacement yet, and the Montage has been on the market a year longer than the Genos has. Now, if you've got deep pockets and don't gig and want a stellar high-end "digital piano" arranger keyboard, there's always the Yamaha CVP-805/809 to consider. It sounds better than the Genos, has new voices and about the same amount of voices as Genos, 675 Styles, has VRM (Virtual Resonance Modeling) technology used for the CFX Pianos also with Binaural Sampling (also included is the Bösendorfer Imperial Grand), 256 note polyphony with no mention of the polyphony being relegated to separate sections/areas e.g. Preset and Expansion sections on the Genos is divided i.e. 128 note (Preset) & 128 note (Expansion). So that's another huge plus regarding the CVP line, if true. 88-key Linear Graded Hammers, which is the bee's knee's if you're mainly a Pianist at heart. And the nice thing is, it doesn't seem to affect the users' ability to play other voices effortlessly.

Here's a recent video demonstrating the CVP-809 that makes that point. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RQS5fdSy6U    The CVP-805/(809 is top-of-the-line) are rather expensive, but I'm talking to those with deep pockets who no longer gig. Set it and forget it since it weighs 185 lbs (Polished finish) 181 lbs, Matte Finish. So in conclusion, if Yammie has decided to exit the TOTL arranger market, then we would still have the very popular and fantastic sounding CVP line...for people with deep pockets.  ;) Everyone else can either keep the Genos until the cows come home, or chuck the Genos and get a Pa5X or a Ketron Event that have newer technology and also sound great. Your choice.  8)

Btw, I mentioned a while back that Yamaha employees sometimes peruse the PSR Tutorial forums. When the Genos first came out, a Yamaha employee by the name of Heratch Touresian posted a few times on the forum. Previously, I had forgotten his name. He's an expert in the digital music industry (both hardware and software) who has been working for Yamaha as a technical sales specialist since 2002. I'm sure there are other Yammie employees who also check us out on occasion to see what we're up to and to get ideas of what Yamaha customers are looking for in future Yamaha keyboard products. Thought I'd throw that in. PS: If you want a fantastic deal on a Yamaha CVP-809, look no further than the Piano Guys Piano Store out of Gilbert, Arizona. They have a website: thepianoguyspianostore.com. They're currently having a sale on the CVP line. Furthermore, they beat Sweetwater.com price by a lot, FYI. I'm not sure if they ship internationally, though. Enjoy whatever you play! And let's all hope Yamaha hasn't given up on top-of-the-line arranger keyboards. September 2023 sounds okay with me, if true.  :) Remember the NAMM 2023 trade show runs April 13-15 so perhaps Yamaha will reveal a Genos successor there? 👍 

All the best, Mike

That CVP809 demo is pretty awesome! For me it actually doesn't seem THAT much to have dropped an additional 5K on top of the PA5X I bought and to then have a near perfect digital piano with speakers as well. I'm pretty dissatisfied with the Korg for the price I paid. I keep telling myself to give it a go again but I'm just too obsessed with the Genos. I see the CVP has reg buttons. It would have been a deal breaker if it didn't. The PA5x I just find almost unusable without it. I can't setup songs the way I want.

Bonners told me this week that there is around a 5 month wait on almost anything Yamaha or Kawai digital keyboard / piano related that isn't in stock, which I guess would include the CVPs.  :(

I will go see it in store anyway now that you tickled my interest with that demo. If they can give me a good deal on taking back the PA5X, who knows.... For me the keybed on the CVP809 would have to be perfect. No noise, pretty light and comfortable like my U1. If it has that it might just sell me over regardless of the stupid price.
Having said that if I don't hear much of a sound difference from the Genos and I can find a more or similar comfortable digital keybed in store (a cheaper digital piano that will outshine the awful Fatar keybed) I think combining that with the Genos possibly gets you 70-80% of the CVP 809 functionality (without the speakers of course). Hmmm... Will see.

Edit:
Hmmm this doesn't look good for me personally. Nothing seems to beat the digital Kawai actions... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEKFGkR6KAk&t=278s&ab_channel=BonnersPianos%26Keyboards
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on January 28, 2023, 03:58:24 AM
Amazing demo of the CVP! I can't help thinking that some of those tunes were pre-scored with MIDI tracks and played along with. No matter - it still worked!

Wish he'd play a whole song and once again insist that the video camera be installed over the top of the CVP. Who are the people who shoot this stuff? Of course, our main focus is the sound but we also need to see what the CVP looks like!!!!!!!! Duh!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on January 28, 2023, 04:26:28 AM
Amazing demo of the CVP! I can't help thinking that some of those tunes were pre-scored with MIDI tracks and played along with. No matter - it still worked!

Wish he'd play a whole song and once again insist that the video camera be installed over the top of the CVP. Who are the people who shoot this stuff? Of course, our main focus is the sound but we also need to see what the CVP looks like!!!!!!!! Duh!!!!!!!!

There are surprisingly very few close up photos I can find of the CVP. I guess with this type of instrument the whole package sells it. I'm more interested in the controls personally.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on January 28, 2023, 01:25:45 PM
The demo shows the amazing quality and versatility of these arrangers, but the truth is that a player of this standard could have done the same demos on an SX900, or Genos and been just as impressive. And although we talk about the differences a lot, as if they are the be all and end all, the truth is that the differences are becoming almost imperceptibly small. Because they are all great sounding instruments  when they are played at this level.
Will Yamaha continue to make a TOTL arranger, that will depends on their view of future sales. But I know that if I were in a decision making position in Yamaha, I would be asking whether it might be better to make a slightly tarted up version of the SX900, perhaps with 61, 76 and 88 key alternatives, and sell it only a little more tha current SX pricing. It might be much more effective  than trying to squeeze more innovation into a Genos. Because it’s now reached the development plateau with diminishing returns, and the market is probably quite price sensitive.
A slightly improved 76 key SX, leave out the speakers, selling under $3000 and just leave the CVP as a high priced TOTL ….maybe. See my other post on portability and price drivers.
Just a thought.
Mike

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Amwilburn on January 28, 2023, 10:27:42 PM
Hey Mark :

Thank you so much for informing this forum about your pros and cons findings between the Yamaha Genos and the Korg PA5X/88.

BTW, is it your intention to add the Ketron/Event to your arrranger's product range in the near future ?
If that might be the case, an objective, detailed dealer's comparison between the Genos and the Event would always be very welcome ( to whom it may concern ), I guess. ;)
There is no enduser's reaction of this new arranger available ( yet ).
I am still waiting for Ketron's English spoken pro video presentation. Wonder if it will ever come ? ;D

For your information, I have no intention to buy a competitive arranger keyboard. I am a traditional Yamaha customer for more than 22 years. ;)

As usual I am always reading your educational comments.  :D

Best regards, JH

Alas, we carried Ketron 20 years ago. Not enough interest. Our fellow Canadian competitor carried Ketron right up until 5 years ago, they dropped it for the same reason: not enough interest to warrant carrying them. I'm *very* curious to try the event: it's actually *less* expensive than their previous model, the SD60, which launched at an eye-watering $9500 (that was the product that made our competitor also pull out of the market) By comparison, the Genos launched at $6k, The PA5x launched at $6.3k for 76 keys,  Pa4x launched at $5.3k for 76 keys.

As much as I'd love to get my hands on a Ketron Event (looks like it will be approx $6k in Canada) the poor distribution, combined with the historically poor sales means I won't be able to convince our company to bring them in. I was hoping to try it at our competitor, but they've scrubbed the brand Ketron completely from their website as well now. Chances are slim to none :(

Mark
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 29, 2023, 07:29:39 AM
Mark :

Thank you very much for your feedback.

It looks like only a few ( worldwide & European ) dealers
might have the intention to sell the Ketron/Event in the near future ?
🥺
Time will tell ...
JH




 
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: kiplis on January 29, 2023, 07:56:56 AM

Next week  ::)


https://www.musicstore.com/en_NO/NOK/Ketron-EVENT/art-KEY0005700-000
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 29, 2023, 09:09:07 AM
Next week  ::)


https://www.musicstore.com/en_NO/NOK/Ketron-EVENT/art-KEY0005700-000

A lot of money though ...  ;)

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: usaraiya on January 29, 2023, 11:50:19 AM
Jeff,

The eventually (pardon the pun) upcoming new Genos will not likely be cheap, either!

Uday
 :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on January 29, 2023, 12:36:33 PM
A lot of money though ...  ;)
-It sure is! But compared to Genos launch price, it's not that "bad" ::) Ok, Korg Pa5X 76-key is 300€ cheaper and it also has 61-key option (additionally 300€ cheaper).

My impression so far... They're both very good keyboards, of course. But from what I've seen so far, I imagine that I could easier switch from Yamaha to Korg, that that's the case for Ketron. I mean, generally speaking, Yamaha and Korg have similar styles/voices approach and so I wouldn't expect much troubles to learn the differences. Ketron however, is still not really clear to me.. especially styles stuff. But on the other hand, voices on Event sound just stunning in my ears.

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: terryB on January 29, 2023, 12:41:12 PM
Note the price excludes VAT, thats +20% in the UK. What about import duty?
How much will a module version be ? I wonder, that could be of interest to some.
Cheers Terry
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 29, 2023, 02:17:04 PM
Hi Bogdan :

I agree the sound quality looks to be OK ( ... in the video's ) ;).
 
In most cases each individual experienced customer will not buy a high end arranger if he/she is not familiar with the instrument ( yet ), right ?
At least he/she wants to hear, play and test the instrument ( in the shop ) thoroughly before he/she will decide whether or not he/she will spend more than 5,000,-- Euro's.
An enduser wants also to know the warranty conditions, the situation of the service after sale, where in his/her region it can be bought etc., I guess.

Apparently, as we heard often in this thread, for the time being, there are only a few Ketron dealers in the world compared to Korg and Yamaha.
Yesterday we have found out ( see Mark's last report ) how Canadian ( ex ) Ketron dealers' impressions and experiences are described.
It looks like they are no longer interested in selling Ketron's arrangers. 

Why should a traditional Yamaha or a Korg customer buy an expensive Ketron/Event ?
I cannot answer that question now, sorry  ::)

Best regards, JH
 
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 29, 2023, 03:23:07 PM
Hey Uday :

There is no reason why the new Yamaha high end arranger will be called "cheap ". :)
 
It might be possible the new one will be 10% higher ( or even higher, who knows ? ) in price than the present Genos' price.
As long as the new Yamaha keyboard's customer gets what he/she expected, IMHO.

BTW, we have to keep in mind the second hand price of a Yamaha arranger has never disappointed, right ? ;)

Best wishes, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Bill on January 29, 2023, 04:09:06 PM
Ketron however, is still not really clear to me.. especially styles stuff. But on the other hand, voices on Event sound just stunning in my ears.

Bogdan

Hi Bogdan
Latest video from AJ - Ketron America,  First and last parts are just playing. The middle section is a tutorial on STYLES.

https://youtu.be/HRTKta4MZ3Q

Another no talking styles demo.

https://youtu.be/hiWZF85LXAA


Bill
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on January 29, 2023, 05:55:43 PM
...
At least he/she wants to hear, play and test the instrument ( in the shop ) thoroughly before he/she will decide whether or not he/she will spend more than 5,000,-- Euro's.
...
-agree on that.
And that's my main concern (not that I'm into buying right now, though). It is a lot of money and there should be a chance to actually see and "touch it" (you know what I mean) before buying.
On the other hand, from what I can see in general on internet, I don't doubt Ketron quality. So I think, it also depends on feedback from actual owners (objective/honest reviews and tutorial examples).
Time will tell  :)

@Bill
Yes, I watched that AJ video yesterday and it is one of the best so far (I was quite impressed). Hopefully we get more of that soon. Darn.. what am I talking about... I don't have money for TOTL keyboard  :o ::) :-\ ;D

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 29, 2023, 07:57:39 PM
Hey Bogdan :

Do not worry. It is only a hobby !

You have a very nice, modern and professional arranger keyboard : a Yamaha SX700. :)
Enjoy it and have fun every day.

An expensive arranger NEVER made a person a better musician.

In my perception playing music is much more important.

I am still very happy with my Ty4 and my 3 guitars.
It would be very painful for me if I had to say goodbye to one of my instruments ... I simply love them.

Of course in my heart I want the latest technology and the best sound. I am a dreamer.
But I cannot have it all. ;)

Like you I admire Alois Müller.
He is a very professional musician, a great player and looks to be a nice person.

Take care, my friend !
All the best, JH





Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on January 29, 2023, 08:06:30 PM
Quote
An expensive arranger NEVER made a person a better musician.
Actually it does, Jeff. Of course, I know that you meant - practicing is the true key to mastering the keyboard. You're 100% right. But having a TOTL keyboard makes it easier to explore music you never thought possible.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on January 29, 2023, 08:56:53 PM
@Jeff
In general I am happy with my keyboard and I still think I made a good decision by buying it. But I'm a dreamer too.. and when I see new TOTL keyboard to come, I just hope that a piece of that technology will also land in future mid-range keyboards... which might be dangerous for my wallet  ;)
Anyway, I try to be rational and if at all, then I will only buy new keyboard if there are substantial improvements that I find useful for me.

Best wishes,
Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Amwilburn on January 29, 2023, 09:12:37 PM
Mark :

Thank you very much for your feedback.

It looks like only a few ( worldwide & European ) dealers
might have the intention to sell the Ketron/Event in the near future ?
🥺
Time will tell ...
JH
Well, I found this:

https://ketronamerica.com/dealers.html

But I don't know how out of date it is; if you click "contact us" it gives a 404 page not found, if you click products, no Event, newest is the SD60 (2018 ish) that I'd mentioned (you have to drop down from SD9 (2015-ish)for some reason). So kind of odd that Ketron American still has no mention of the Event? The website still lists the SD9 as new (which launched around 2015)

Mark
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 29, 2023, 09:19:18 PM
Bogdan
Good to hear that ! Thank you.

Lee
You are absolutely right : a top instrument makes life for a good musician a lot easier and offers much more possibilities to make a good musician even better.
For professionals like you it is a must.

Best regards, Jeff
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 29, 2023, 10:19:04 PM
Hey Mark :

Apparently it looks like Ketron is capable to produce a good product but Ketron still is a small Italian local ( family ? ) company ( lack of a professional marketing - and distribution departement, etc. ? ).
International business might be a serious problem for Ketron, dealers and endusers. It cannot be solved due their present structure, IMHO.

JH







Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on January 30, 2023, 12:50:25 AM
That CVP809 demo is pretty awesome! For me it actually doesn't seem THAT much to have dropped an additional 5K on top of the PA5X I bought and to then have a near perfect digital piano with speakers as well. I'm pretty dissatisfied with the Korg for the price I paid. I keep telling myself to give it a go again but I'm just too obsessed with the Genos. I see the CVP has reg buttons. It would have been a deal breaker if it didn't. The PA5x I just find almost unusable without it. I can't setup songs the way I want.

Edit:
Hmmm this doesn't look good for me personally. Nothing seems to beat the digital Kawai actions... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEKFGkR6KAk&t=278s&ab_channel=BonnersPianos%26Keyboards

Hi AndrewKeyz, the video link you posted is a comparison between the Yamaha CLP685 vs Kawai CS11, 5 years ago, which is before the CVP-809 was released to the public. I haven't played a CVP-809 myself, but looking at the YouTube video I posted previously seemed to suggest the key action was not overly heavy. If there is anyone on the forum who has played a CVP-809, maybe they could chime in and fill us in regarding the key action. 🎹

PS: Correction: price for the CVP-809 at the Piano Guys Piano Shop in Gilbert, AZ is actually the same price as on Sweetwater.com. Sweetwater does have the Polished Ebony Finish in Stock and they do ship internationally and they have free shipping on most items, but I'm not sure about the CVP-809 since bulkier items don't ship free but arguably @ 185 lbs the CVP-809 doesn't seem that heavy compared to, say, a Hammond B3 organ, etc.  ;)

All the best, Mike 
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on January 30, 2023, 03:21:04 AM
Hi AndrewKeyz, the video link you posted is a comparison between the Yamaha CLP685 vs Kawai CS11, 5 years ago, which is before the CVP-809 was released to the public. I haven't played a CVP-809 myself, but looking at the YouTube video I posted previously seemed to suggest the key action was not overly heavy. If there is anyone on the forum who has played a CVP-809, maybe they could chime in and fill us in regarding the key action. 🎹

PS: Correction: price for the CVP-809 at the Piano Guys Piano Shop in Gilbert, AZ is actually the same price as on Sweetwater.com. Sweetwater does have the Polished Ebony Finish in Stock and they do ship internationally and they have free shipping on most items, but I'm not sure about the CVP-809 since bulkier items don't ship free but arguably @ 185 lbs the CVP-809 doesn't seem that heavy compared to, say, a Hammond B3 organ, etc.  ;)

All the best, Mike
Thanks Mike, ultimately the best thing for me to do will be to have a go at these keybeds myself. Hopefully I can manage to try out a number of keybeds this coming Saturday: CVP 809, MP11SE, ES920, Nord Grand etc. I was extremely disappointed with the RD2000 (too heavy action and the light setting didn't really improve things), that came highly recommended and I didn't like the usage at all, and now the PA5X88 which in my opinion has an awful keybed that is breaking after very light use. I feel a huge disconnect with playing on that and making music. It seems a struggle somehow, which I'm not sure is just the PA5X or the keybed ruining it. I've heard other complaints about Fatar in general, especially from pianists. I'm surprised it is so bad to be honest after all they are used in many controllers etc. I wish Korg would have gone with something that was universally more liked, like a Kawai ES920 keybed maybe? I've seen some mentions that Korg's own 88 weighted keybeds on some of their recent products are quite liked, so really don't understand the Fatar thing at all. Maybe a weight, cost or resources issue. Best one I've used in the past was a Kawai CA67, which I appreciate is a near real piano action and would never go into a portable arranger.

Will see if the Yamaha GrandTouch is any better than my RD2000 was and closer to that Kawai. It certainly won't be as bad as the PA5X I'm betting.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 30, 2023, 07:45:10 AM
I think Yamaha had gone as far as it wanted with expansion packs and there are so many third party packs around now to buy. They probably decided they could invest the money spent on this side into the development of future keyboards.

As we all know midi styles are easily to extract and edit.
Audio styles cannot even be extracted. ::)

No longer expansion packs nor audio styles for me.
Back to Yamaha's roots.

Hopefully a new Yamaha high end arranger keyboard equipped with the technological knowledge and input of 2025.  :D
A brand new midi editing win/mac software programme would also be very welcome. A very good additional and useful tool, IMO.

Am I dreaming ? ;D

Best wishes, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on January 30, 2023, 01:13:20 PM
You're not dreaming, Jeff.

I think the Genos needs some serious upgrades but I don't think these upgrades need to be classified as a "total redesign." For me, there are only a few key components that Yamaha must look at. With Korg and Ketron, it seems they almost re-invented the wheel because their prior models couldn't compare to the Genos. Time will tell.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 30, 2023, 02:49:45 PM
Thank you, Lee, for your comments.👍

Up to now we did not hear, except a few reactions as far as the PA5X is concerned, any reactions from endusers.
I understand Korg's PA5X updates are not finished yet and Ketron's
Event is not even in the hands of one customer. ::)
We do not know ( yet ) when all competitors' new arrangers will finally be in the market.
Our first Event impressions are only based on video's presented on Youtube. Are these video's made by professionals ? I cannot answer that question, sorry.
The present PA5X reactions from traditional Korg customers are not so positive ( see Korg's Forums ) like most of us might think they are.
Now many people are all waiting for Yamaha's answer before most endusers will decide to place an order, I guess.
Let us cross our fingers Yamaha will be the best choice for all endusers. ;)

Bye for now, JH


 
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on January 30, 2023, 04:04:37 PM
All good points, Jeff. You wrote, "Our first Event impressions are only based on video's presented on YouTube. Are these video's made by professionals?"

I haven't seen one video that I would classify as made by a pro player. Regardless of their skill levels, all these players are just "tinkering" around. There's very little actual demonstrations of what this thing can do and how it's done. Perhaps it's eons ahead of every other arranger but how do we know? You can't sell expensive products through the use of teaser videos done by non-pro players. This is a stain on Ketron's marketing skills. They may have ruined their big release by not being first to the demo party the way Yamaha did with the Genos and all their earlier keyboards.

I also think that when Yamaha comes close to releasing their Genos 2, the should leak out some teaser videos...oh wait, I think they do that 😀!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on January 30, 2023, 05:23:10 PM
if you look at the Ketron website, they state their mission is to design instruments for ‘solo performers and amateurs’. Interesting that they put solo performers first.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on January 30, 2023, 05:30:09 PM
True, Mike. I wouldn't have used the word, "amateur."
Perhaps, "recreational players," "home players," "off stage players" or "for fun players."
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: pjd on January 30, 2023, 06:14:50 PM
True, Mike. I wouldn't have used the word, "amateur."
Perhaps, "recreational players," "home players," "off stage players" or "for fun players."

It's a shame that the word "amateur" has taken a negative connotation. It once meant "lover of art". And the way it is now used and abused in sports!  :o Yikes!  >:(

-- pj
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on January 30, 2023, 06:33:06 PM
Hi Guys :

All my competitors' questions are answered now.
Too many question marks and too many doubts are very confusing.

My personal conclusion :
There is absolutely no reason why on earth I should leave Yamaha.
Amen.

Best wishes, JH



Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on February 01, 2023, 04:49:16 PM
It's a shame that the word "amateur" has taken a negative connotation. It once meant "lover of art". And the way it is now used and abused in sports!  :o Yikes!  >:(

-- pj

I am not am not a half wit " I am a complete idiot "!!! 8) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on February 01, 2023, 07:02:51 PM
Not possible John. You figured how to record the Genos to a DAW. That makes you a genius ;D!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on February 03, 2023, 09:23:30 AM
It's a shame that the word "amateur" has taken a negative connotation. It once meant "lover of art". And the way it is now used and abused in sports!  :o Yikes!  >:(

-- pj
I have seen it written many times on the forum that the amateur and professional should be used to designate those who make a living as a musician, or those who do not, rather than competence level. But in fact this is incorrect. Although that is one meaning, use of the word professional to denote someone who has high level of skill, even if unpaid, and amateur to denote incompetence even if they are paid, are both legitimate uses of the words. English Dictionaries have contained those definitions for many years. I don’t know when it first started to be used that way, but I would think, more than hundred years, and it is now very common.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on February 03, 2023, 10:22:03 AM
Thank you for attempting to define the use of these terms, @mikf. This seems to me a very plausible description to use. Of course for what it's worth, but for semantics it's good to use it correctly. The problem can be: when is it considered that someone has so many 'skills' that this indicates the boundary between the 2 definitions 'Professional or Amateur'.  I assume this refers purely to playing technique and virtuosity/finger dexterity, not how you use the functions and possibilities of your (advanced) keyboard. Seen from my level, almost everyone here is 'professional'  ;D It doesn't bother me, the 'fun'-dimension is independent of whether you are 'amateur or professional'.  ;)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 03, 2023, 10:40:56 AM
Hi Mike :

The original French word "amateur " has different meanings.
Might be negative or positive. All depends on the content of the text.

Apparently in this case Ketron made a big mistake by using the English word "amateur ".
I have the impression Ketron's Marketing Departement might be "amateurish ". ;)

JH
 
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on February 03, 2023, 11:16:01 AM
I have seen it written many times on the forum that the amateur and professional should be used to designate those who make a living as a musician, or those who do not, rather than competence level. But in fact this is incorrect. Although that is one meaning, use of the word professional to denote someone who has high level of skill, even if unpaid, and amateur to denote incompetence even if they are paid, are both legitimate uses of the words. English Dictionaries have contained those definitions for many years. I don’t know when it first started to be used that way, but I would think, more than hundred years, and it is now very common.
Mike

Hi Lee
Genos and Cubase
I have learnt so much on the mix side in Cubase now all by trial and error.
I go over and over the same song making different approaches .
Now nearly all mistakes overcome.
I lke Ian Sheppards advice , Mixing and mastering is like peeling an onion.
Work by doing a few layers at a time to uncover what comes next until you have no onion Left!! ;D.
Once mixing a song every move you make with compression and limiting can change parts of a song.
I have used AB referencing with a commercial track and that sorts the Tonal balance, then there is dynamics.
This is where i slipped up and now have sorted that.
Once i get a workflow going i will be away with the fairies
The big thing is as long as you get a strong recording input on the Genos , you are almost there.
It takes a long time to realize it.
It is all about small moves in Cubase which makes the big difference.
I would like to know, why does it take so long for the penny to drop.
Oh well, i am not a master yet but happy having a good go at it
What!!"Me an amateur"!! "nah"!!  "i'm Van Gogh"!!!! ;D ;D
i would be better being Van Gaal. At least i can kick a ball!! 8)


All the best
John :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 03, 2023, 11:23:56 AM
Hi John :

Some people call " Mixing and Mastering " an Art not a Science.  :)

All the best, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on February 03, 2023, 11:29:01 AM
Hi John :

Some people call " Mixing and Mastering " an Art not a Science.  :)

All the best, JH
Thank god that takes the amateur away out of the equation ;D ;)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: DrakeM on February 03, 2023, 12:15:58 PM
Hi John :

Some people call " Mixing and Mastering " an Art not a Science.  :)

All the best, JH

Not anymore it's simple to do with a free AI online service.

https://www.bandlab.com/mastering

This guy's video convinced me. I could tell the difference in the A/B test at the end of his video.
The time he spent verses the final result wasn't worth the difference (IMO). 8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfev8CifjRY

Regards
Drake




Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on February 03, 2023, 01:43:29 PM
Hi John:
Some people call " Mixing and Mastering " an Art not a Science.  :)
All the best, JH
True Jeff. Mixing and mastering is an art but those who do must use science as a tool 😀.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on February 03, 2023, 02:05:38 PM
I remember years ago, mixing my first CD with my music partner in my home studio. I had no studio monitors, just computer speakers, and an onboard sound interface - some cheap piece of garbage. My DAW was the free version of Cubase that came with my Tyros 2. I recorded my backing tracks as pure audio, which made editing out glowing errors basically impossible. I had to do several takes for the complex stuff.

To establish the final mix level, I played a Michael Buble CD over my speakers and measured how loud his songs were - both his quiet songs and screaming brass tracks, using an analog dB meter from Radio Shack. I played back my background scores with the vocals and raised the level to the same levels heard from the Buble CD. It worked. We sold over 500 of those CDs!

John, you are absolutely correct that when you have such sophisticated tools that we have today, one small tweak here causes something to change over there. It's all about compromise. My friend used to be the chief speaker designer at Yorkville Sound just east of Toronto. He told me that they would use computer software to design a perfect response curve for a speaker. They would build the prototype and then test the response and it would sound terrible. They often altered the design to match human hearing, where the computer simulation showed that the design was totally wrong. These tools we have are amazing but my final meter stick is my ears. Make sure you take several breaks between adjustments. If you listen to the same tracks over and over again, they'll eventually sound right when in fact, they're terrible.

Side note
This topic has drifted in many directions, hence why it's now 15 pages and growing. I submit that such threads are very productive because it gets us all thinking about music in general, and that's what we are all about. At one point, it was thought that this thread should be shut down because it drifted too far off the target. My hat's off to the moderators for not doing so. These are all healthy discussions 😀!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on February 03, 2023, 02:15:25 PM
I think most people agree that playing music comes from the heart and feeling put into the piece is all part of the enjoyment of listening.
 I don't want to listen to music that tries to sound like the CD. I can go out and buy it if I like it. I am a believer in keeping live music live. To me you can't beat it.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on February 03, 2023, 03:09:39 PM
I’ve heard people listen to music and say “what a great song”, or “boy that guy can play” or “what a great arrangement”, or “ what a great voice” - but never heard anyone say “what a great mix”.!!
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: DrakeM on February 03, 2023, 05:42:12 PM
I’ve heard people listen to music and say “what a great song”, or “boy that guy can play” or “what a great arrangement”, or “ what a great voice” - but never heard anyone say “what a great mix”.!!
Mike

Maybe not but I have heard "that is s#%& mix" from my wife.  ;)

She gives out free good advise by the way.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Amwilburn on February 03, 2023, 06:19:35 PM
Not anymore it's simple to do with a free AI online service.

https://www.bandlab.com/mastering

This guy's video convinced me. I could tell the difference in the A/B test at the end of his video.
The time he spent verses the final result wasn't worth the difference (IMO). 8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfev8CifjRY

Regards
Drake
Thanks for finding this!

I don't know which was which, but A sounded more 'alive' and B sounded rather flat and lifeless to me, so very big difference between the 2 mixes. Having said that, if AI can generate passing university level homework, I've no doubt it could learn to mix. A cool *free* option for those who don't have time/ don't want to master.

Mark
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 04, 2023, 07:47:36 AM
Hi Guys :

As I said before Mixing and Mastering might be called an Art ... but, Lee B is right : the ( deep ) knowledge of the ( modern ) audio recording technology is absolutely a must.
In pro recording studio's Mixing and Mastering are mostly done ( together ) by the producer and the audio engineer(s).

If the quality of each individual recorded track is not good it is almost impossible to make a perfect Mixing and/or Mastering.
IMHO the total Mixing and Mastering activity might be a " professional " Art ? ;)

BTW ...
Home recording is a hot item today and could be very interesting/attractive for home players and giggers.
BUT ... even very good home recordings are still called ( by professionals ) : demo recordings.

Attachment : photo of the EW Recording Studio's in Hollywood/USA. WOW ! :)

Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on February 04, 2023, 10:13:43 AM
I think most musicians possibly worry a bit too much about mastering than might be necessary. I've done that a lot in the past. And what has rightly been pointed out hardly any of the listeners will care about the mix / mastering much.

The sound that comes out of a Genos with its in built recorder is already excellent. Pumping it through an automated mastering tool will improve it a bit, there is no denying, but it's doubtful someone listening to your recording will care much whether you did that or not.

Consider many of us listen to most music in compressed format these days.

At the same time (and bringing this back to arranger talk), if you DO want to go down the uncompressed format route and make your music sound the best it can possibly be and possibly master things afterwards, I find it truly shocking that the likes of the PA5X cannot even record to Wav, only MP3. Even an SX600 can record to Wav on external USB.
Utterly pathetic from Korg for £4000 in my opinion.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 04, 2023, 10:52:19 AM
Hey Andrew :

IMO most listeners do not care about Mixing & Mastering. They are listening to the song. If they like the song it might become a hit.
Most musicians do care, I guess. ;)

Automated Mastering might be very risky. The human ear is still the best tool to have the greatest results, IMHO.

In the past all mixing and mastering were done by ear.
After all these years I am still surprised by the super sound quality of some good old songs. Timeless.

All the best, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on February 05, 2023, 04:59:03 PM
Shame these videos are never in English but obviously you can get the gist easily here after initial minutes of blabbering.

I do like these lock features I must say. I think only really useful if you can quickly select with registrations for certain parts in songs and then move on. But a good feature anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVKfSpCd5ug&ab_channel=BartekKrzemi%C5%84ski
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: usaraiya on February 05, 2023, 06:37:52 PM
Shame these videos are never in English but obviously you can get the gist easily here after initial minutes of blabbering.

I do like these lock features I must say. I think only really useful if you can quickly select with registrations for certain parts in songs and then move on. But a good feature anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVKfSpCd5ug&ab_channel=BartekKrzemi%C5%84ski

In the video, go to settings, subtitles and choose English, and there you have the English translation of the entire video!

Uday


Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Amwilburn on February 05, 2023, 07:57:11 PM
Real bass & chord lock *is* a very cool feature, although real bass can sort of be achieved on existing arrangers by simply octaving the bass. Real chord however, isn't so easy to do!

Mark
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on February 05, 2023, 11:51:50 PM
Hi
From what i have learnt so far is that these auto fix Master online tools do not cut the mustard if your mix is not up to a good standard.
The saying is that you cannot polish a turd. ;D
I personally do not like the online auto fixes.
The other thing is if a mastering mix is fantastic and nobody notices, that means the job is done properly.
I do notice a great mix from a ordinary one and that is why i strive to do the best that i can and it is all coming together now.
I have just got rid of my Marantz PM6003 hi-fi stereo amp and upgraded to The Marantz PM7000N and wow, the music and the detail coming out of my speakers is fantastic. Still some people prefer a transister radio . Yo can't win e'm all. ::) :P
I like to hear detail in music, but others are not bothered. So it really is down to what is your poison.
Eileen is happy with live playing and so am i , but i also like to make multi-tracks and go into detail in my Man cave ::) 8)
I will soon put some music up and hopefully it has progressed.
I do play a whole song and record on the Genos. I practice a song for a few days and then go for a one hit on the Genos .
This way keeps the human touch.
I then transport to Cubase and do some edits.
If i want more detail, i will put back into the Genos and do more tracks.
After that mix in Cubase and finish with Ozone 10.
It is great mixing your own music, much better that the auto mixing overlords online. Drop & Go!! ::) ;D
My pennies worth now is that you have to AB your music with a similar sounding track and dynamics and tonal balance is a must.
Automate volumes and stereo image in Cubase and learn EQ, Compression and Limiting.
I also find that Room Correction by Sonarworks is 100% in my Square room of death :-[ :-[ :P
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Joe H on February 06, 2023, 03:49:25 PM
Mixing is an art.  You either have it or you don't (a good ear).  Sorry... but that's the way it is. There are things pros can learn about how to apply effects processors, panning, how to blend the instruments and vocals (volumes) and the like.  So some learning is necessary, buy you still have to have a good ear.

 :'(

Joe H
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on February 06, 2023, 04:43:31 PM
Good point, Joe. And after you become good at mixing and mastering, there's still the HUGE variables with which you have no control:

1) Personal taste of the listeners' music.
2) Speaker quality. Low end speakers will appeal to some but those who have high end speakers will require impeccable results and if they don't get them, they'll blame the mixing and mastering person.
3) Signal source. Is it a CD, DVD, Blue Ray, Netflix, YouTube, or some other format like mp3, Wave? In this digital world, it's next to impossible to cover all the bases. No matter what, your mix is going to sound great or horrible.
4) Compression rate of the source signal. YouTube still can't get it right. Their sound levels are all over the map, and the quality is either pretty good or terrible.

Mixing and mastering techs are really up against the wall on this stuff. They must deal in averages, not absolutes like their forefathers in the 60s and 70s.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 07, 2023, 06:14:27 AM
Nowadays we do not hear very much from Ketron ...

The first ( promised ) December 2022 Event's delivery has been postponed.
Some dealers make us believe potential customers have to wait another 4-6 weeks, others say : " delivery time unknown ".

Problems perhaps ?  ::)
Only time will tell, I guess.

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on February 07, 2023, 08:46:41 AM
DV247.com has it listed at 21st of April now. Thomann.de says 5-7 weeks.

So nobody is going to get it till then Jeff?
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: kiplis on February 07, 2023, 09:11:00 AM
Hi.

Yes, has being postponed, once again. But, the good news is the new price  ;D ;D ;D

https://www.musicstore.com/en_NO/NOK/Ketron-EVENT/art-KEY0005700-000

"Ordered, estimated to be in stock: Apr 21, 2023 "
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 07, 2023, 02:51:12 PM
Hi.

Yes, has being postponed, once again. But, the good news is the new price  ;D ;D ;D

https://www.musicstore.com/en_NO/NOK/Ketron-EVENT/art-KEY0005700-000

"Ordered, estimated to be in stock: Apr 21, 2023 "

Thank you for the link.

The Event might be expected on Aprli 21, 2023 ( source : Music Store - Germany ).
01. A firm delivery date has not been confirmed by Ketron yet, right ?   
02. The enduser's unit price has been lowered by Euro 800,- ! From E 4,999 to E 4,200 ... a lot of money though. :P

It could be interesting for potential buyers ( ? ) to find out why Ketron have postponed the Event's estimated delivery time for the second time and why they have drastically decreased their unit price without prior notice

An unusual policy, IMHO. ;)
Best regards, JH

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on February 07, 2023, 03:20:04 PM
Still listed as £4,439.00 for us Brits at DV247. Which is near enough 5K Euro.

A shocking amount of money when you consider what else you can buy instrument wise for that money - top of the range Kawai CA piano or a Genos with speakers and stand.

Maybe £3,499 tops, and I would have had a look.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on February 07, 2023, 03:42:46 PM
... and why they have drasticly decreased their unit price without prior notice

An unusual policy, IMHO. ;)
Another opportunity for speculation... First, price might (and probably will) change again when Event actually becomes available.
But other than that, according to current keyboards market, I see no reason why they did that. When Event "came out", Korg Pa5X was already (kind of) on market, so Ketron could position it's price accordingly and price of Genos also didn't change since then. So first possible reason could be, that Ketron realized that Event simply isn't competitive at such high price.
The other reason I can imagine is ... attention please! .. Ketron might heard something about Genos successor coming soon enough? I mean, it would be a shame if Event would need to reduce price at Yamaha arrival -you get the point, I'm sure.

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on February 07, 2023, 03:52:59 PM
Another opportunity for speculation... First, price might (and probably will) change again when Event actually becomes available.
But other than that, according to current keyboards market, I see no reason why they did that. When Event "came out", Korg Pa5X was already (kind of) on market, so Ketron could position it's price accordingly and price of Genos also didn't change since then. So first possible reason could be, that Ketron realized that Event simply isn't competitive at such high price.
The other reason I can imagine is ... attention please! .. Ketron might heard something about Genos successor coming soon enough? I mean, it would be a shame if Event would need to reduce price at Yamaha arrival -you get the point, I'm sure.

Bogdan

NAMM is the week before the 21st of April so....  ;)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 07, 2023, 03:56:47 PM

I wonder how many musicians are ready to place an Event order now ... and pay in advance ?  🤩🤩🤩

JH


Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on February 07, 2023, 04:16:27 PM
I wonder how many musicians are ready to place an Event order now ... and pay in advance ?  🤩🤩🤩

JH

Well there's at least 1 in the Korg Pa5X Facebook group who is getting one. He said he would have the Ketron in a few days. But maybe not now.

But it's a good point. Why pay months in advance? I guess one could be worried about missing the initial shipment and possibly having to wait even longer if you don't order now.

Personally I prefer the embargo / release & deliver immediately approach.

At least Korg got that right with the Pa5X.
Hopefully Yamaha will do the same. Not: allow to sell straight after NAMM, drip feed some videos that raise more questions than answers, and not be able to actually have it delivered till Sept/Oct!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 07, 2023, 04:42:37 PM
Hi Andrew :

Ketron is a very small Italian company ...

What is going on there ? : decreasing prices drastically,  postpone delivery times ( twice  ! ) and last but not least ... all other issues we discussed before ( in this thread ! )  ::)

I repeat my words again : a lot of unanswered questions and ... too many question marks.

Take care, JH




Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on February 07, 2023, 05:08:19 PM
At least Korg got that right with the Pa5X.
Hopefully Yamaha will do the same. Not: allow to sell straight after NAMM, drip feed some videos that raise more questions than answers, and not be able to actually have it delivered till Sept/Oct!

I disagree. It took about a month or so after Yamaha announced the Genos that we started to see a few Genos show up at music retailers in the USA. Not sure about Europe or Canada, but I was able to purchase a Genos in November 2017 at a local Guitar Center. If companies wait too long before actually shipping an adequate amount of product, many people might lose interest, which is what's happening with the Ketron Event and the Korg Pa5X, in my opinion, because of their obvious slow to market strategies and minimal deliveries to music retailers, online and in stores. The Pa5X is still not available in the UK if I'm not mistaken. If Yammie releases the Genos 2 at NAMM 2023 on April 13-15 in Anaheim, California, there will be a lot of hoopla and excitement, needless to say. If Yamaha is quick to the draw and the Genos 2 is available in stores soon thereafter, and if it's a worthy contender and/or pounces the competition, that would mean a lot of people who are waiting for the Pa5X and Event to show up in stores may in fact turn their attention to the Genos 2 because of its relatively rapid availability. And that means Yamaha would have a leg up on the competition and could secure a significant bump in market share and leave the competition eating dust. Bottom line: The Genos 2 could be a real barn burner and if it sells like hotcakes, it could increase Yammie's bottom line big time. In other words, a win-win situation if I ever saw one. 8)

All the best, Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on February 07, 2023, 05:23:12 PM
I disagree. It took about a month or so after Yamaha announced the Genos that we started to see a few Genos show up at music retailers in the USA. Not sure about Europe or Canada, but I was able to purchase a Genos in November 2017 at a local Guitar Center. If companies wait too long before actually shipping an adequate amount of product, many people might lose interest, which is what's happening with the Ketron Event and the Korg Pa5X, in my opinion, because of their obvious slow to market strategies and minimal deliveries to music retailers, online and in stores. The Pa5X is still not available in the UK if I'm not mistaken. If Yammie releases the Genos 2 at NAMM 2023 on April 13-15 in Anaheim, California, there will be a lot of hoopla and excitement, needless to say. If Yamaha is quick to the draw and the Genos 2 is available in stores soon thereafter, and if it's a worthy contender and/or pounces the competition, that would mean a lot of people who are waiting for the Pa5X and Event to show up in stores may in fact turn their attention to the Genos 2 because of its relatively rapid availability. And that means Yamaha would have a leg up on the competition and could secure a significant bump in market share and leave the competition eating dust. Bottom line: The Genos 2 could be a real barn burner and if it sells like hotcakes, it could increase Yammie's bottom line big time. In other words, a win-win situation if I ever saw one. 8)

All the best, Mike

The Pa5X was available on 30th of June 2022 though, the day the embargo was lifted, I bought it on that day and had it at home 4 days later. Probably could have been quicker if I had wanted to pick it up.

Yes there hasn't been enough supply to meet demand but hopefully Yamaha will not be in that position and better prepared so that we don't get this sporadic availability carry on, IF we see a Genos follow up this year.

I'm actually impressed at what looks like is in the DGX670. Could we possibly see a Genos II that is cheaper than the PA5X and Event?  ;D
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 07, 2023, 05:36:58 PM
Hey Mike :

It would be a big surprise if Yamaha should announce at the Namm
their newest high end arranger, the Genos' successor ( April 2023 ) !

Yamaha's tradition normally is to announce their newest high end arranger in Sept/Oct ... but one never knows ...

Best regards
JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 07, 2023, 05:51:40 PM
Hi Andrew :

Yamaha's price mostly is not lower in price than the competition's.
We all know why : highest quality and latest technology ! :)

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on February 07, 2023, 06:07:44 PM
Quote
Not sure about Europe or Canada, but I was able to purchase a Genos in November 2017 at a local Guitar Center.
The Genos showed up in Canada about two months after the US, because Yamaha doesn't think we count, even though Canada produces some of the best entertainers in the world. I received the second one sold in Canada but that was after many phone calls to Yamaha, including their Ontario regional manager who told me, "I just love my new Genos" which arrived in her hands around the same time the US got their original shipments. She had the nerve to tell me, "You're going to love the Genos!"

Yes, that's a VERY sore spot with me! She should have lost her job at Yamaha for such a condescending reply, especially after me spending roughly $30,000 on Yamaha products over the years!!! I hope she's out selling Kazoos on a street corner in bad neighborhood somewhere, far away. End of rant.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on February 08, 2023, 01:30:13 AM
The Pa5X was available on 30th of June 2022 though, the day the embargo was lifted, I bought it on that day and had it at home 4 days later. Probably could have been quicker if I had wanted to pick it up.

Interesting since you live in the UK and from my understanding, no retail shops in the UK currently have the Pa5X in stock the last time I looked, anyway. Did you buy it online from Italy? As we know Ketron arranger keyboards are made in Italy too and I noticed a few Italians were able to purchase an Event when the first shipment went out. Korg really messed up too. Yes, they shipped possibly a few hundred early on but many countries have not received any going on 8 months now. I did source one 76-key Pa5X here in the USA a week or so ago at the standard retail price if anyone is interested. But as I stated previously, I want to wait a while to see what Yamaha will deliver. Especially now that NAMM 2023 is only a couple of months away. If Yammie doesn't reveal a Genos 2 (or whatever they call it) at NAMM, I will probably still wait to see what transpires in 2024 before considering a move. The Genos, of course, is still top-shelf soundwise, in many regards, but technology has rapidly advanced over the past 5 years and a new hardware model will hopefully address some of those concerns. Which have been addressed in some ways on the Pa5X and the Event. But knowing Yamaha, I think when the Genos 2 is finally released it will likely blow the competition out of the water. Just like they did when the Genos came out.  8)

All the best, Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: kiplis on February 08, 2023, 09:32:01 AM
"The Genos, of course, is still top-shelf soundwise, in many regards, but technology has rapidly advanced over the past 5 years and a new hardware model will hopefully address some of those concerns"

Without opening my Genos, I would say that the basic design and components used are a bit older than just 5 years. Key-components (cpu and digital processing) maybe from 2010-2015.
Regardless, the Genos is a very nice instrument  :D
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on February 08, 2023, 09:37:50 AM
Interesting since you live in the UK and from my understanding, no retail shops in the UK currently have the Pa5X in stock the last time I looked, anyway. Did you buy it online from Italy? As we know Ketron arranger keyboards are made in Italy too and I noticed a few Italians were able to purchase an Event when the first shipment went out. Korg really messed up too. Yes, they shipped possibly a few hundred early on but many countries have not received any going on 8 months now. I did source one 76-key Pa5X here in the USA a week or so ago at the standard retail price if anyone is interested. But as I stated previously, I want to wait a while to see what Yamaha will deliver. Especially now that NAMM 2023 is only a couple of months away. If Yammie doesn't reveal a Genos 2 (or whatever they call it) at NAMM, I will probably still wait to see what transpires in 2024 before considering a move. The Genos, of course, is still top-shelf soundwise, in many regards, but technology has rapidly advanced over the past 5 years and a new hardware model will hopefully address some of those concerns. Which have been addressed in some ways on the Pa5X and the Event. But knowing Yamaha, I think when the Genos 2 is finally released it will likely blow the competition out of the water. Just like they did when the Genos came out.  8)

All the best, Mike

I bought mine from Bonners UK. They quickly sold out, but I think they had some (not the 88 key probably) in late summer when I remember looking. But indeed I don't think Korg has shipped many of these units at all. The UK owners Facebook group only has 121 members, and this group is advertised with each official PA5X update email that goes out.

I think Yamaha will outsell Korg and the Event massively with its next top of the range arranger and it will probably be rightly so.

Another thing I noticed about the Pa5X that is actually annoying is that it doesn't show the default BPM of each style when you navigate through the list. Maybe the display can be adjusted and that is fine. But it's just such little default quirks I find quite annoying now compared to the Yamaha, after using the Genos again.

With all respect the Genos just looks like it was actually used by performers in its design (indeed they learned from the Tyros before - centralising reg buttons for example), the Korg is more along the lines of: "Here is stuff you probably want in an arranger, right?"

Edit: I just checked on the Pa5X style list. If I change the normal display to show me the styles in a table list format it adds the size of the style file and the date it was added to the arranger. Totally useless information compared to default BPM in my opinion. One good thing I do have to say is that after I updated to the 1.1 firmware the bad backlight bleed from the left hand side on the screen seems to be gone. Interesting that this seems to have been fixed with a software update. Or maybe I'm imagining things and the backlight bleed fixed itself over time. A bit strange, it's certainly not there anymore as bad as I remember seeing it initially which instantly made me feel disappointed with the screen.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: terryB on February 08, 2023, 02:13:31 PM
Well it may or may not be a sign that Yamaha will be launching a new model later this year, but the fact that the Yamaha Club is sadly closing in July due to retirement of the organiser Glyn Madden, however the annual Club Weekend Event that takes place every year at the end of October has been taken over directly by Yamaha UK and pushed back to mid November.
This year there will be special guest appearances by Martin Harris and Peter Baartmans, could this indicate that Yamaha have a new model to show off ?

There are other big keyboard shows earlier in year here in the UK, but this yearly event which is quite large could be a good time for Yamaha to stage an event  8)

Cheers Terry
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on February 08, 2023, 03:27:28 PM
Well it may or may not be a sign that Yamaha will be launching a new model later this year, but the fact that the Yamaha Club is sadly closing in July due to retirement of the organiser Glyn Madden, however the annual Club Weekend Event that takes place every year at the end of October has been taken over directly by Yamaha UK and pushed back to mid November.
This year there will be special guest appearances by Martin Harris and Peter Baartmans, could this indicate that Yamaha have a new model to show off ?
There are other big keyboard shows earlier in year here in the UK, but this yearly event which is quite large could be a good time for Yamaha to stage an event  8)
Cheers Terry
Here's an idea. Let's put a hidden camera inside Peter Baartman's house. I bet he has the Genos 2 right now and is learning all about it 🤣!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 08, 2023, 04:01:32 PM
Hi Lee :

During one of his last dealer's visits at the end of 2022 ( Genos' presentation ) - in The Netherlands - Peter B said his next Dutch Yamaha dealer tour has been planned for December 2023.
No further details.

Will he introduce the Genos' successor in December 2023 ... ??
 ... Pure speculation ? I hope not. :D

All the best, JH

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on February 08, 2023, 04:27:48 PM
Will definitely try to see Peter Baartmans if he does UK shows.  8)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on February 08, 2023, 04:32:06 PM
Well it may or may not be a sign that Yamaha will be launching a new model later this year, but the fact that the Yamaha Club is sadly closing in July due to retirement of the organiser Glyn Madden, however the annual Club Weekend Event that takes place every year at the end of October has been taken over directly by Yamaha UK and pushed back to mid November.
This year there will be special guest appearances by Martin Harris and Peter Baartmans, could this indicate that Yamaha have a new model to show off ?

There are other big keyboard shows earlier in year here in the UK, but this yearly event which is quite large could be a good time for Yamaha to stage an event  8)

Cheers Terry


You could be on to something, Terry. It's been several months since Peter Baartmans has given a live demonstration of the Genos. The live demonstrations are usually uploaded to YouTube by the outfit where Peter is invited to play. I think September 2022 was the last live demonstration given by Peter playing the Genos If I'm not mistaken. Martin Harris and Peter Baartmans are two extremely talented arranger keyboard players and are very well-known within the Yamaha keyboard player community. NAMM 2023 begins April 13 and runs through April 15th. Btw, Korg chose not to reveal the Pa5X at NAMM 2022 which may have been due to the global pandemic. Korg waited several months, until June 2022, before the official announcement. Yamaha might follow the same path where they could wait until the annual Club Weekend Event coming in November in the UK instead of NAMM. Either way, the pieces of the puzzle may be coming together sooner than some folks may have realized. Time will tell.

All the best, Mike 
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on February 08, 2023, 04:41:00 PM
Is this the official booking for that Yamaha UK club weekend?
https://www.cavalcadeproductions.co.uk/yamaha.htm

I've never been but it sounds great. Sorry if this completely off topic.  :-[
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 08, 2023, 05:55:19 PM
It looks like Korg have a lot of problems to solve all their PA5X issues.
Will they be able to fix them all ? Not easy, I guess  ...
No doubt Korg are losing a lot of money and ... reputation loss.

A very sad and expensive experience, IMO.

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: SciNote on February 08, 2023, 10:14:27 PM
...

There are other big keyboard shows earlier in year here in the UK, but this yearly event which is quite large could be a good time for Yamaha to stage an event  8)

Cheers Terry

No, they'll stage a GENOS!  ;D :o
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on February 08, 2023, 11:42:52 PM
Quote
I've never been but it sounds great. Sorry if this completely off topic.
Not at all. This whole thread could be graphically represented by a snake's back 🤣. I enjoy the various tributaries this thread has taken. It's all good discussion among friends.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: kiplis on February 09, 2023, 07:21:51 AM
So, we all know that Korg has "issues" here and there with the latest model, but what happened to the Ketron (Event)?
After a couple of months of fuss, there is a sudden silence...
Maybe someone (Sokratis?) has some more information? Is production suspended or something? The Event is an interesting
instrument and I would like to get to test one, as it looks like a new "Genos xxx" may or may not be coming.
Well, maybe it will come this year, or next year, or maybe the year after, or... ::)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: terryB on February 09, 2023, 08:35:29 AM
Is this the official booking for that Yamaha UK club weekend?
https://www.cavalcadeproductions.co.uk/yamaha.htm

I've never been but it sounds great. Sorry if this completely off topic.  :-[


Yes thats the one Andrew  :)

Cheers Terry
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 09, 2023, 09:18:37 AM
Hey Kiplis :

Our friend Sokratis ( Ketron ) is not involved in production, delivery, marketing and sales but in software development only ( I guess ?), he cannot give any feedback nor information due to his NDA.

Generally speaking people are saying : no news is good news but in this particular Ketron's situation there might be serious problems ( drastical price decrease & postponement of delivery ). Whatever the cause might be.  8)

Yamaha will introduce their Genos' successor before the end of 2023.  Pure speculation ? ... I do not think so.  :)
I believe most new arranger's potential customers will wait for Yamaha's new baby before making any final decision.
Yamaha will maintain their first market share for the years to come.

It looks like people's interest in the competition's new high end arrangers is sharply declining due to the present problems of both competitors.   

Best wishes, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on February 09, 2023, 10:12:39 AM
It's strange situation with arranger keyboards market right now (looking at Thomann now)... If someone is in need to buy "a better" keyboard, then there are only few options:
1. Yamaha: Genos (and PSR-SX series)
2. Korg: nothing
3. Roland: nothing
4. Ketron: nothing

and budget friendly:
5. Thomann: AK-X1100 (aka Medeli AKX10)
6. Casio: CT-X5000

No wonder Yamaha has highest market share, because availability is crucial. And we all know, once you "adopt" the brand, you usually stick with it.

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on February 09, 2023, 10:56:17 AM
So guess why both Korg and Ketron have put their (unfinished) product on the market? :-\
Speculative Strategy:
1. Both (especially Korg) wanted to snatch a number of customers away from Yamaha before Yamaha comes out with its product. That could mean that they already 'know' that a Yamaha product is coming?
2. Both Korg and Ketron are on their production schedule (and Yamaha is just late, for whatever reasons)
3. Just put it on the market (limited number). Solve the problems while doing so. The first customers are then a kind of 'test subjects'. Unfortunately, that happens all too often these days.
4. No strategy at all…

All parties already knew about the world's problems, etc., when they were launched on the market. That risk was deliberately taken.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: kiplis on February 09, 2023, 10:59:56 AM
Hi Jeff & Bogdan.

You're probably both right, but I'm just wondering why Yamaha is also so quiet.
Well, anyway, the Genos is still beyond my capabilities and I'm going to practice with my current gear, which BTW, now works even better with the new KRK Rokit 5 G4 speakers and 8" subwoofer. I'll never go back to the Genos speakers  8)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 09, 2023, 11:09:24 AM
Hey Bogdan :

Thank you for your information.

For many years now Roland are no longer producing high end arrangers as we all know.
IMHO we never ( will ) know why Roland left this market.
Might Yamaha's success be the reason ?

Roland have always made good high end arrangers in the past and were once #1, worldwide.

Will Roland ever come back ?

Will Yamaha become the only high end arranger's manufacturer in the near future ?

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 09, 2023, 11:42:45 AM
When the two competitors announced their new toys I also wondered why there came no Yamaha answer sooner.

Nowadays I am more convinced there might be a serious reason why Yamaha didn't react sooner and ( even now ) say nothing at all.

IMHO they will launch a new high end arranger that will surprise the entire keyboard world.

This arranger might cost at least USD 5,500 I guess but will blow all competition out of the water for the next 5 years and ...at the end of 2024 they will announce a complete new SX serie. :)

That might be Yamaha's answer.
I wonder what will happen to Ketron and Korg ?  :o

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on February 09, 2023, 11:46:37 AM
I'm attempting to do a long video comparing 100 sounds on the PA5X vs Genos before the Korg goes back to the dealer.
For this it took a while to research which sounds are best compared.

I'm trying to be open minded and objective and forget about my problems with the Korg, but seriously soundwise I am stunned at the difference in most areas (base sounds, not multi layered keyboard set / one touch setting stuff) with the Genos sounding SO much better and far more articulation.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: soundphase on February 09, 2023, 12:30:35 PM
You're probably both right, but I'm just wondering why Yamaha is also so quiet.
Yamaha is not so quiet. I looked at the electone ELA-1 (new) user’s guide and older ELB/C/S-02 user’s guide.s. It’s clear for me electone and Genos lines are currently converging.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: kiplis on February 09, 2023, 12:52:09 PM
Interesting theory, but to me it looks like a step backwards, if you look at the specs? ELA-1 is compared to PSR-SX600 on another site.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on February 09, 2023, 01:09:42 PM
...
I'm trying to be open minded and objective and forget about my problems with the Korg...
-that's the only way for you to actually end up with better keyboard. I say "for you" because at the end, it will (probably) be subjective opinion... it's just the way it is.

The thing is, when we talk about sound (voice) quality, each of us uses different measures. For example, you mentioned articulation... yes, it gives an effect of "real player" for certain voices. This effect can be "cool" enough, so we don't notice that actual voice (sample) maybe isn't that good. And so we just say "this voice sounds great" -which doesn't necessary mean it sounds the same as real instrument.
In short: all piano voices on my keyboard sound like piano and they sound "good", but none of them sounds the same as real piano.

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on February 09, 2023, 01:16:08 PM
...ELA-1 is compared to PSR-SX600 on another site.
-I agree on that: it's an two-keybed SX600 with added pedals.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 09, 2023, 01:58:45 PM
Hey Bogdan :

Improving the sound quality of each individual instrument of an arranger will always be target #1 for all arranger manufacturers and a dream for all users but I am afraid not all instruments will ever sound like the original instrument. ;)

I agree the sample technique can do miracles but not for all octaves, IMHO ... but ... who knows ?

Best wishes, JH

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on February 09, 2023, 05:03:23 PM
Agree with you Jeff.
It's always a compromise, because space (memory) has limited size... and everyone wish more (and even more) voices -it's a selling point actually.
In that sense, I don't think there's a problem for Yamaha to record 1st class samples (Yamaha sure have them!). It comes to answer the question, what do you want: 100 hi-quality voices or 500 good-enough voices? Your guess is right: keyboards with 500 voices will sell better.

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: pjd on February 09, 2023, 06:29:22 PM
3. Just put it on the market (limited number). Solve the problems while doing so. The first customers are then a kind of 'test subjects'. Unfortunately, that happens all too often these days.

All parties already knew about the world's problems, etc., when they were launched on the market. That risk was deliberately taken.

Well, there's an old saying in project management: features (scope), time and quality -- choose one.

Executives get impatient. Or they believe that the "early bird will get the worm" -- first to market wins.

If they don't want to cut features, well, guess what suffers? Quality. This isn't rocket science.   ;)  I've been there many times before (i.e., dancing with management) and I'm glad to be retired.  ;D

All the best -- pj
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: pjd on February 09, 2023, 06:34:32 PM
It comes to answer the question, what do you want: 100 hi-quality voices or 500 good-enough voices? Your guess is right: keyboards with 500 voices will sell better.

This is a Classic marketing trick. If someone cannot assess product quality, at least they can compare two numbers. The bigger number wins.

This trick is probably more in play at the entry-level, e.g., PSR E series, where most customers are not sophisticated or knowledgeable. Well, at least one hopes that premium-level customers are more discerning...  ;)

-- pj
 
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: soundphase on February 09, 2023, 09:33:44 PM
-I agree on that: it's an two-keybed SX600 with added pedals.
That globally means that Yamaha continues to invest on the Genos arranger line as now it is common with electone evolutions.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Dnj on February 10, 2023, 02:55:05 PM
Reading all these opinions & the fact that it's been so long a wait I still think Yamaha will break away from traditional arranger keyboards from the past we all know too well & venture into a new design & focus direction that will surprise many of us.  :-\
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 10, 2023, 03:36:26 PM
Reading all these opinions & the fact that it's been so long a wait I still think Yamaha will break away from traditional arranger keyboards from the past we all know too well & venture into a new design & focus direction that will surprise many of us.  :-\

Breaking away from the past might not be that easy ... blowing both competitors out of the water ... for sure.  :)

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: travlin-easy on February 10, 2023, 05:38:30 PM
I agree, Jeff. Yamaha will likely continue to produce TOTL arranger keyboards for the foreseeable future, and I sincerely believe the upcoming keyboards will be along the same lines of those in the past. They have been extremely successful for a reason - they provide us with great products at a reasonable price, ones that we can all relate to.

This horse has been beat to death,

Gary 8)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on February 11, 2023, 09:39:31 AM
I still think it's unlikely Yamaha would call it Genos 2 due to the confusion with the firmware update. So many people uploaded videos with Genos 2.0 to Youtube. Maybe they would call it Genos II or Genos+ if the update is rather minor, with what we've seen with the Modx.
Possibly use a brand new name like Helios or Yamaha Cosmos.  ;D Perhaps indicating some groundbreaking infrastructure that can import every Yamaha sound ever, can create a style based on any song Wav/MP3 you feed it and easily be expanded? :o
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 11, 2023, 09:51:59 AM
Hi Guys :

Korg launched their PA700 and PA1000 in 2017, am I right ?
For a couple of years now there is almost 0 demand ( in my country e.g. ) for new and second hand models due to Yamaha's success of their SX serie, I guess.
I wonder when Korg will introduce the 700 and 1000 successors ?
Their present PA5X's serious ( ? ) problems must have all priority, IMO. ::) 

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 11, 2023, 11:43:27 AM

Possibly use a brand new name like Helios or Yamaha Cosmos.  ;D

Yamaha Cosmos would be a good brand name ! I like it.  :)

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: kiplis on February 12, 2023, 10:32:14 AM
Ketron Event in stock?

https://www.opushangszer.hu/ketron-event-szintetizator-9take

Around 5.500 Eur
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on February 12, 2023, 10:56:00 AM
Interesting.. because the rest of keyboard they offer is quite budget oriented. Anyway, price is very speculative  ::)

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: kiplis on February 12, 2023, 11:11:01 AM
True, very expensive, especially if you are a "guinea pig" for production equipment.
(like apparently Korg Pa5x users)

-Kiplis-
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Bill on February 12, 2023, 11:36:33 AM

This horse has been beat to death,

Gary 8)

I have to agree with you Gary,  why some people believe in flogging a dead horse is beyond me, especially when they have no real interest in the technology and have zero intention of buying any new keyboard.
I suppose they are like my good wife, she never stops talking because she like the sound of her voice.  However she never actually say’s anything that she has not already said a thousand times.

Bill
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on February 12, 2023, 01:31:16 PM
I have to agree with you Gary,  why some people believe in flogging a dead horse is beyond me, especially when they have no real interest in the technology and have zero intention of buying any new keyboard. I suppose they are like my good wife, she never stops talking because she like the sound of her voice.  However she never actually say’s anything that she has not already said a thousand times.

Bill
Okay...., that's why you bought you a Genos (or any other brand should help too, with headphones mostly on)  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 12, 2023, 01:40:51 PM
Ketron Event in stock?

https://www.opushangszer.hu/ketron-event-szintetizator-9take

Around 5.500 Eur

Price : EURO 5,500,-- ?
A joke, right ?

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on February 12, 2023, 03:49:01 PM
For our European friends, the German music retailer Thomann has the Event listed at $4,499, and in stock within 4-5 weeks.

https://www.thomannmusic.com/ketron_event.htm

The Hungarian website must have received its Event during the first Ketron shipment back in December 2022. The Next Ketron shipment will be sometime in March, according to AJ from Ketron USA. I think you can pre-order the Ketron Event at certain online stores. Hopefully they'll ship a lot more than they did the first time around, but don't hold your breath. Small outfit usually equals small output.   :-\

Mike F
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 12, 2023, 03:54:47 PM
Present price : Euro 4,200 also in Germany ...

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: kiplis on February 12, 2023, 04:39:32 PM
Thomann price for Ketron Event in Europe is 4.999 €

https://www.thomann.de/de/ketron_event.htm?shp=eyJjb3VudHJ5IjoiZGUiLCJjdXJyZW5jeSI6MiwibGFuZ3VhZ2UiOjF9&reload=1

 ;D ;D ;D It must be a joke...

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Gunnar Jonny on February 12, 2023, 04:51:06 PM
Well,
Genos is some yars old now (close to 5?), and is not that much cheaper than the newcomers.
https://www.thomann.de/de/yamaha_genos.htm
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 12, 2023, 05:42:36 PM
Hey Johnny :

The Genos' successor might be USD 1,000,-- higher in price than the present Genos' price ... who knows ?  :)

BUT ... it will beat all competition : top quality equipped with the latest technology for at least another 5 years, IMHO.

Patience will be rewarded. :)
You may say I am a dreamer but I am sure Yamaha's new baby will be the best of all, as usual.

Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Christophermoment on February 12, 2023, 05:57:56 PM
Well,
Genos is some yars old now (close to 5?), and is not that much cheaper than the newcomers.
https://www.thomann.de/de/yamaha_genos.htm

So? What's your point?
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on February 14, 2023, 01:45:20 AM
So? What's your point?

You can bet your bottom dollar $, euro €, or yen ¥, whatever the case may be, that when the Genos 2 is about to be launched the price for the current Genos will decrease accordingly. Hopefully, Yammie will follow tradition and the Genos 2 will be launched at a special introductory price. Makes sense because it will attract more buyers and first time customers. That said, the $64K question is, what's taking Yamaha so long? I think one reason is it has something to do with MIDI 2.0 implementation. Another reason is the global pandemic and resulting chip shortages, supply chain, and other crises put Yamaha in a bind and probably at least a year behind schedule. Since Yamaha told Peter Baartmans that his next touring duties will start in December 2023, it sounds to me like the Genos 2 will probably be announced at NAMM or officially launched at the yearly UK Keyboard Club event in November where Peter and Martin Harris will be in attendance and likely showcase the new Genos successor, according to Yamaha UK. Let's hope so. This is the longest time span ever that I'm aware of where Yamaha has taken over 5 years (it will actually be 6 years if Yamaha waits until November) to release a new model top-of-the-line arranger keyboard. Here's to hoping. 👍

All the best, Mike 
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: maartenb on February 14, 2023, 02:47:46 PM
If what Mike above said is true:
and combined with Ton37's remarks in "The next Yamaha" subject,

are for me strong clues that Yamaha will launch Genos 2 in October/November this year.


Maarten
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: DerekA on February 14, 2023, 03:07:42 PM
Or. maybe, Yamaha have decided to exit from the TOTL arranger market and concentrate on Clavinova.

No point in guessing, though it is fun :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Gunnar Jonny on February 14, 2023, 06:19:49 PM
So? What's your point?

The point is, if the prices for new models such as Event (and PA5X) is a joke (as stated in the post above mine),
the price for (the 5 year old) Genos certainly a joke as well.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 14, 2023, 06:42:39 PM
I agree the Genos' successor will be announced in Oct/Nov 2023.

But ... IMHO  ... this time it will not be called Genos2 ... I do not know why Yamaha will not call it Genos2 but I strongly believe the new high end arranger will be a complete new concept based on experiences of the past, as usual.

Time will tell, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: pjd on February 14, 2023, 06:48:54 PM
I think one reason is it has something to do with MIDI 2.0 implementation.

Hi Mike --

That's an interesting point. It would be quite innovative to add MIDI Polyphonic Expression (MPE), too. I could imagine MPE driving SArt2 voices. Dreams! Dreams!

Maybe the next generation will be called "Geno$" -- dollar sign intentional.  ;D

-- pj
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: hans1966 on February 15, 2023, 03:09:18 AM
maybe the new arranger is called Zeus, Vulcano or Titanic, ;D you never know! 8)

Hans
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Oxford1035 on February 15, 2023, 03:41:55 AM
maybe the new arranger is called Zeus, Vulcano or Titanic, ;D you never know! 8)

Hans

Why am l getting that sinking feeling?   ;D
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: YvonP on February 15, 2023, 04:57:54 AM
About the price of the current Genos, here in Canada, it was introduced at $6000 Canadian dollars, remained at that price about 3 years then was raised to $6500 and sells now for $6800!

Any similar raises in price somewhere else or is it only the Canadian dollar loosing value again?

Yvon
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: kiplis on February 15, 2023, 05:02:29 AM
The point is, if the prices for new models such as Event (and PA5X) is a joke (as stated in the post above mine),
the price for (the 5 year old) Genos certainly a joke as well.
The technology and components used are from almost 10 years ago... That's why, for example, the connectivity is a bit modest. Midi 2.0 could be an interesting solution.
However, Midi 2.0 has not been very popular in any devices  ::)

-Kiplis-
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on February 15, 2023, 08:31:21 PM
The time that it takes Yamaha to release the new Genos, you may as well call the new keyboard Bontempi!! ;D 8) :o
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on February 15, 2023, 09:27:31 PM
The technology and components used are from almost 10 years ago... That's why, for example, the connectivity is a bit modest.

Midi 2.0 could be an interesting solution.

However, Midi 2.0 has not been very popular in any devices  ::)

-Kiplis-

There are currently 55 companies in the MIDI Association prototyping MIDI, 2.0 (including Yamaha) so 2023 looks to be a big year for MIDI with more MIDI 2.0 products hitting the market and a celebration of the 40th anniversary of MIDI itself.

MIDI 2.0 is one of the biggest advancements for music technology in decades.

1.  Higher Resolution and Articulation
2.  The Universal MIDI Packet 
3.  Jitter Reduction
4.  MIDI Capability Inquiry (MIDI-CI)
5.  Also, special functions like the option to pitch bend individual notes in a chord. Etc., etc.

Roland has a MIDI 2.0 controller keyboard i.e. the A-88MKII MIDI Keyboard Controller that is supposedly "MIDI 2.0 Ready" but still no MIDI 2.0 functionality currently.  So it would be a great opportunity for Yamaha to be the first out of the gate with MIDI 2.0 functionality/compatibility in the Genos successor and the Montage successor that would future-proof both keyboards going forward. 👍

All the best, Mike   
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: soundphase on February 16, 2023, 06:39:41 AM
Practically, can someone give one or two examples of things that would be possible on Genos with midi 2.0 that is currently not possible ? (Avoid technical only description like « each note will have its own effect value…. »)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: kiplis on February 16, 2023, 07:14:41 AM
Practically, can someone give one or two examples of things that would be possible on Genos with midi 2.0 that is currently not possible ? (Avoid technical only description like « each note will have its own effect value…. »)

Perhaps this will help: https://www.midi.org/midi-articles/details-about-midi-2-0-midi-ci-profiles-and-property-exchange

-Kiplis-
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on February 16, 2023, 08:41:53 AM
It is a pity that some (Ketron-irrelevant) subjects are posted here, in stead of in the right  category where they should be posted for future use. (e.g. 'The next Yamaha keyboard' or 'Midi files ..') So I'm still hoping other boards will be added, like Other Keyboard Brands or All about Midi or ...?? Tmho it pollutes the various posts/forumsearch ..? Nevertheless I can live with it ;-)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: kiplis on February 16, 2023, 09:25:53 AM
Well, I can at least promise on my behalf that I won't post here anymore.
Maybe I haven't understood the purpose of this site correctly  :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on February 16, 2023, 10:14:13 AM
Dear @Kiplis, I emphasize that your (everyone's) contributions are certainly appreciated! What I mean is that those valuable contributions are therefore better preserved if they are in the category where they belong more, so that they can be consulted in future again by others.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 16, 2023, 12:23:56 PM
H E L P

Thank you so much for bringing up this midi 2.0 item. 👍👍👍

Since I am very interested in midi, I would be very grateful to know what midi 2.0 exactly is and what the advantages are for all of us.

Thank you so much ( in advance ) for your feedback.

Looking forward to receiving your reactions soon, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Bill on February 16, 2023, 12:52:06 PM
Hi Jeff

Kliplis has already provided a link as shown above. There is a video that explains it all.

Bill
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 16, 2023, 01:30:35 PM
Thanks, Bill !

Midi 2.0 might become a new, separate thread, I hope ... Such an interesting item for all midi users ( like me ), I believe.  ;)

Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 16, 2023, 02:04:33 PM
Hi Ton :

It looks like the interest in the " Event " seems to decline here.
 
As far as I know potential endusers cannot buy an Event yet.

Price has been decreased by Euro 800,-- but no dealer can tell the public when the Event will exactly be in stock and why Ketron have decreased their unit price so drastically.

I have been told some Italian endusers have received their Event
in the meantime but no reactions on the Internet, IMHO.

I have no idea what is going on there ... complete silence. ;)
Regards, JH


Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on February 16, 2023, 02:33:05 PM
Since Ketron is a keyboard manufacturing company, the CEO or other top executives probably have greater insight of the goings-on behind the scenes of other keyboard manufacturers e.g. Yamaha, Korg, etc. Ketron may have gotten a scoop that Yamaha will release the Genos successor soon? Therefore, that may have prompted Ketron to lower prices as a greater incentive to potential buyers of the Event. Or, Ketron may have decided to boost future sales during the next shipment in March to draw more interest going forward. Note: I noticed Ketron is still using obsolete USB 2.0 on the Event. Unacceptable, in my opinion. I'm glad I caught that because now the Event has lost some of my interest and is now on the back burner while we wait for the Genos successor.

ATTENTION: Nord Keyboards just announced the new Stage 4 workstation keyboard. Here is a teaser video that was just released.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJTyF-tuVrk

Here is another video of someone playing the Nord Stage 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJ6SsRPLCfo

One more video of the Nord Stage 4 released within the last hour: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwHX3Cc2ZtA

PS: This is a huge development and in my opinion now puts pressure on Yamaha to release a new Montage keyboard sooner rather than later. If Yammie dilly-dallies too much, Nord has the potential to gain a significant chunk of market share going forward because of the Nord Stage line's huge popularity and following.

All the best, Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on February 16, 2023, 03:02:59 PM
...I noticed Ketron is still using obsolete USB 2.0 on the Event. Unacceptable, in my opinion..
USB specification is irrelevant the way current (Yamaha) keyboards work. For example, Genos & PSR-SX use USB 2.0. Copy a 500MB pack from PC to USB 2.0 stick. Now compare how long does it take, if you copy from USB stick to PC or if you install pack to keyboard and you'll see, that the process is much longer on keyboard -because keyboard can't store the data fast enough (=USB 2.0 is much faster than keyboard).
Yes, I'm too for USB 3.0, but what matter is, if keyboard is able to make a benefit of USB 3.0 speed.

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on February 16, 2023, 03:40:01 PM
Good point @bogdan. It's right, usb2 can be fast enough, provided that the other hardware (chips, boards, OS, memory) reacts with almost the 'same' speed. That is unfortunately not the case with the current Yammie's.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on February 16, 2023, 04:35:24 PM
Korg PA5X apparently has a few USB 3 ports, including the one on the front. It also has Micro SD slots for two extra storage cards. I thought it only had one slot (which was actually confirmed to me online), but when I removed the cover (you need a screwdriver) I could clearly see two slots, I shoved 256 (!) GB extra in there.

In my opinion totally stupid and useless for a keyboard that can only record to MP3. I had no idea of this limitation when I bought it. Just assumed for £4300 a ******** in built wav recorder would be supported.

 ::)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 16, 2023, 05:00:02 PM
Hi Andrew :

We heard saying Korg are producing the PA5X again and distrubtion will start soon ?
Do they have added wav recording ?

No news is good news, they say ...
How did dealer Bonners UK handle your PA5X's keybed problems ?
Hope they were capable to help you out.  ::)

Plse advise.

Thanks for your reply. JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Christophermoment on February 16, 2023, 06:59:00 PM
Good point @bogdan. It's right, usb2 can be fast enough, provided that the other hardware (chips, boards, OS, memory) reacts with almost the 'same' speed. That is unfortunately not the case with the current Yammie's.

Not sure that's quite right?? Where specifically is there a problem with the hardware 'speed' regarding chips, boards, OS and memory?
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on February 16, 2023, 07:40:16 PM
E.g. try to do a search for a style/ song on the USB-stick. Or load a MP3 from the USB-stick in your keyboard. Or .. An (old) PC works runs faster than the keyboard does.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on February 16, 2023, 08:22:44 PM
...Where specifically is there a problem with the hardware 'speed' regarding chips, boards, OS and memory?
When installing package, you can see how LED on USB blink.. that is, when LED is lit, data is read from USB and when LED is off, USB stick is just waiting (because keyboard is busy writing data on internal storage).
Only guessing here, but my first suspect for slow transfer would be NAND Flash (probably used for storage), which is relative slow at writing data. But then it can be combination of many things: internal clock, bus width, CPU speed, firmware, etc.
Maybe next keyboards will have USB 3.0 port, but that doesn't mean data transfer will actually be significantly faster that with USB 2.0 -unless internal hardware is also improved (without that, it will only be advertised "feature").

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: pjd on February 16, 2023, 11:42:32 PM
Since I am very interested in midi, I would be very grateful to know what midi 2.0 exactly is and what the advantages are for all of us.

There are tons of MIDI 2.0 related articles on the Web. here's a few more links:

https://www.musicradar.com/news/midi-20-spec-confirmed-the-biggest-advance-in-music-technology-in-decades
https://www.soundonsound.com/music-business/introducing-midi-20
https://www.audiocipher.com/post/midi-2-0

Some of the more technical benefits will be hidden from musicians. MIDI 2.0 instruments and software can query each other about their capabilities, parameters and such. Potentially, instruments, etc. can be more deeply integrated without a bunch of manual set-up.

MIDI Polyphonic Expression (MPE) is a separate standard built on top of MIDI. MPE increases the type and amount of MIDI control data sent to a hardware or software instrument. To get an idea of what MPE can provide, check out the SWAM instruments from https://audiomodeling.com/ or check out the ROLI Rise 2: https://roli.com/products/seaboard/rise2
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: pjd on February 16, 2023, 11:48:03 PM
When installing package, you can see how LED on USB blink.. that is, when LED is lit, data is read from USB and when LED is off, USB stick is just waiting (because keyboard is busy writing data on internal storage).
Only guessing here, but my first suspect for slow transfer would be NAND Flash (probably used for storage), which is relative slow at writing data. But then it can be combination of many things: internal clock, bus width, CPU speed, firmware, etc.

Correct. The limiting factor when installing expansion pack samples is the write speed of the internal NAND flash expansion memory. This is slow.

Flash write speed is also a limiting factor when recording WAV to a USB jump drive. Cheap flash drives typically have notoriously slow write speed and that's why WAV recording fails when using a slow inexpensive USB flash drive.

Hope this helps -- pj
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: hans1966 on February 17, 2023, 01:33:50 AM
Why am l getting that sinking feeling?   ;D

 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: soundphase on February 18, 2023, 09:26:08 AM
Perhaps this will help: https://www.midi.org/midi-articles/details-about-midi-2-0-midi-ci-profiles-and-property-exchange

-Kiplis-
I understand that with higher resolution, effect transitions will be smoother.... more natural.
Regarding "harmonization/exchange of controller profiles", I understand the technical interest of sharing the same interface. But from an end-user point of view, there is not much direct impact.

I think neural networks and AI algorithms should have a much bigger impact for us, by automatically guessing "emotions" and automatically adapting styles to them.

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 18, 2023, 10:22:59 AM
 Ketron, I wonder if they have many styles
available ?
And what about Ketron song styles ?
All audio styles, I guess ?

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on February 18, 2023, 11:42:35 AM
Ketron, I wonder if they have many styles available ?
And what about Ketron song styles ?
All audio styles, I guess ?

Watch this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p5EcRgFL8s) video where many questions are answered.
My impression? Ketron is currently most advanced keyboard and I can only wish having it.

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 18, 2023, 03:05:23 PM
Hey Bogdan :

Which video do you mean ?  ???
The Event seems to have a nice sound, I agree but I like midi styles.
Easy to edit in the pc.

Best regards,

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on February 18, 2023, 03:50:47 PM
hi Jeff,
You probably missed "this" in my previous post  :)
Here's the link again: AjamSonic Tutorial 8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p5EcRgFL8s).

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Bill on February 18, 2023, 04:28:02 PM
The Event seems to have a nice sound, I agree but I like midi styles.
Easy to edit in the pc.

Hi Jeff

The Ketron has BOTH - best of both worlds.

Bill
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 18, 2023, 05:22:40 PM
Hey Bill :

Thank you for your feedback. :)

It is good to know the Event has midi styles too.
It would be interesting to know much more about the Event's midi styles, if possible.

The Event's price of Euro 4200,-- ( in Germany ) is a very competitive price for a 76 note high end keyboard, IMHO.

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 18, 2023, 05:39:11 PM
Hey Bogdan :

Thank you very much for the Event's video you mentioned in your last message.
A very interesting video I did not see before. Sorry for that. 8)

I agree the Event looks to be a very competitive and powerful high end arranger.
I have to admit there is so much of the Event I do not know yet.

As soon as it will be available in one of our music shops, I will keep my ears and eyes wide open before to jump to a final conclusion. Promised.  ;)

Best wishes, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 19, 2023, 08:53:59 AM
Yesterday my dealer announced ( as of immediately ) a Genos sales promotion.

If a customer orders a new Genos ( Euro 4,419 ) now, he/she gets the speaker set GNS-MS01, free of charge.
Present delivery time : approx. 4 weeks. 
According to my dealer Yamaha seem to have 800 pcs Genos ready for this special action.
Given the number of pieces ( 800 ! ) this promotion must be global.

As usual, this kind of Yamaha promotions confirms a Genos' successor must be on its way, right ?



JH


Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: musicteach on February 19, 2023, 10:11:42 AM
I am not an expert with arrangers by any means.  I use the Genos mostly for writing songs and creating backing tracks.  I wonder if the Korg or the Ketron arrangers have the ensemble voices?  I find these incredible.  For added realism, I often use micro tuning on the ensemble voices and this is easy to do on the Genos.  Also, changing the portamento on many voices is easy and can be very effective. 

Personally, I like the Genos so much that I seriously doubt a company other than Yamaha will beat it (for my needs).  I would love some easy DAW integration with the Genos though. 
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on February 19, 2023, 10:46:21 AM
...
Personally, I like the Genos so much that I seriously doubt a company other than Yamaha will beat it (for my needs)..
I can fully understand that! -we don't need "the best" keyboard: the one that suits our needs is enough (and is, in that sense, the best).

But.. there are things I wish to be possible on my keyboard, or that they could be done better. And that's why I'm curious about new keyboards (where brand is totally irrelevant). My standpoint is, that newer keyboard can do everything what my existing keyboard can, plus it maybe has features I'm looking for. Or even better, it maybe has features I didn't even know I was missing (because I thought "it's impossible").

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 19, 2023, 03:01:11 PM
Hey Bogdan :
 
IMHO :

A brand name is very important for most of us, Yamaha owners.
In my 22 years experience, Yamaha owners prefer to stay true to their brand for many reasons : Yamaha guarantee quality, easy to use, reliable and very stable in value.
For all Yamaha arrangers there is a lot of software available ( including software, free of charge, specially made by our own experts ) and ... last but not least the presence of thousands of styles made for Yamaha arrangers.
Most of the Yamaha customers are very familiar with Yamaha's technology and Yamaha's pros and cons.
Other manufacturers have their own technology resulting in a different approach and method.

There is no arranger brand in this market that is perfect. All of these instruments need a regular update and/or upgrade.
I am certainly not negative towards competitors.
Competition might be necessary to make our present brand even better and to check the prices in this ( small ) market.
Nowadays our competitors seem to produce very nice products but ... before I should make another choice ever, I will always give Yamaha my first priority. ;)

Best wishes, JH   
 
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on February 19, 2023, 04:25:20 PM
hi Jeff,
Yes, everyone should buy whatever keyboard brand he prefers, although "loyalty" shouldn't be the reason - that's usually expensive thinking  :)

..Yamaha guarantee quality, easy to use, reliable and very stable in value...
-from what I can see on web, it's no better or worse than other reputable brands.

Quote
For all Yamaha arrangers there is a lot of software available ( including software, free of charge, specially made by our own experts ) and ... last but not least the presence of thousands of styles made for Yamaha arrangers.
The only software Yamaha provides is YEM, because keyboard needs it to function as an arranger keyboard. And because of YEM limitations, we're practically forced to use additional software. In that sense, Etienne (MixMaster author) and J.Sorensen deserve more credit than Yamaha: they do it for free, while the cost of "free" YEM is included in keyboard price.
Thousands of styles... let's face it, most of them are duplicates of duplicates (where only tempo and some voices are changed).

I have Yamaha and I don't regret my decision -it was the best keyboard (for me) that I could afford at that time and I'm still happy with it. My next keyboard? I honestly have no idea which one it will be... probably it will be some that's the best for me  :)

Regards,
Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 19, 2023, 07:47:18 PM
Hey Bogdan :

You are absolutely right each individual arranger user must go for the arranger that suits best.
IMO this decision mostly goes hand in hand with a certain feeling of loyalty. ;)

There must be a reason why Yamaha still are the market leaders for more than 20 years now.
In 2024 we will know if Yamaha will keep their #1 worldwide position for the next 5 years ... only time will tell.  :D
 

Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 20, 2023, 06:42:07 AM
Joe H said in another thread ( Montage's successor )  :

Sounds like Yamaha is recycling old technology again, which is something they are very good at.

It is not the first time we have heard these words ...
That would be wonderful news for the Genos' successor too, IMO. :)
Wiil it be called " New Tyros " ?  ;) ;) ;)

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Misu on February 22, 2023, 07:27:20 AM

Hi,

Someone has already chosen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ILXMhnqabE

Best regards!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on February 22, 2023, 08:24:18 AM
Thx @misu for the link. Technical he made some good statements, which already have been mentioned in this post. We have just to wait, hear and try this machine when it is on the market. 2023 looks to become a year wherein one can make a choice between Korg, Yamaha or Ketron. Luxury situation for us, keyboard lovers  ;) I'm still keeping all options open for myself. ;)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on February 22, 2023, 12:28:49 PM
Ketron can only drag their feet on releasing the Event, for so long. Their dealer network is laughable. They spilled the information about it and with peoples' desire for instant gratification these days, the Event needs to come to market or die. Same with the PA5X. It's out there but in need of some serious updates because it's not fully functional.

These are very poor business practices. The idea of "teasing" potential buyers and then not coming through with your product, does not sit well with everyone and is corporate suicide. Of course, there will be reasonable sales for the two keyboards at the outset but when Yamaha releases Genos 2, it will be ready, with few glitches. The latter will be dealt with swiftly. I'll wait for it.

Just my thoughts...😀.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 22, 2023, 01:33:57 PM
Hi Lee :

IMHO Yamaha are in the best driver's seat to maintain their #1 global position in this market now that Yamaha are aware of what the 2 competitors are offering. ;)

I am no longer interested in buying a competitors' new arranger.
I will wait for Yamaha's new baby ... 2024 might be the right time, I guess.

Take care, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on February 22, 2023, 02:29:01 PM
Excellent points, Jeff. There's the old saying in poker, "Never tip your hand too early in the game." Ketron and Korg have done that. Yamaha's response will be stellar :).
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: DerekA on February 22, 2023, 02:48:22 PM
I am no longer interested in buying a competitors' new arranger.
I will wait for Yamaha's new baby ... 2024 might be the right time, I guess.

Is that your final decision Jeff ???  ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on February 22, 2023, 02:48:54 PM
IMHO Yamaha are in the best driver's seat to maintain their #1 global position in this market now that Yamaha are aware of what the 2 competitors are offering. ;)
...
That might not necessary be the case... for example, Yamaha needed 10+ years to catch up with Korg on touch display. Every company has different priorities targeting different customers.
Speaking for me, if next Yamaha will only be an "improvement" of existing keyboards, then I'll pass -they're doing that for too many years. In that sense, I can fully understand PSR-S950/Tyros3 owners who see no reason to buy new keyboard.
I hope Yamaha to positively surprise everyone.. because the more competition there is, the better for customer. We need to pay for keyboard we buy, remember?  ;)

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 22, 2023, 05:04:57 PM
@ Bogdan :

I have been told the Genos came 5-6 years ago with a complete new software concept : better sound and better drums than ever before ... or am I wrong ?
I am not familiar with the Genos at all, sorry ... never played one.  :-\

Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 22, 2023, 05:16:11 PM
Is that your final decision Jeff ???  ::) ::) ::)

Correct ... I prefer to wait for Yamaha's new baby first before making any decision.  ;)
I am not in a hurry.
After my 22 years' experience this company never let me down.  :D

Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: maartenb on February 23, 2023, 01:34:25 PM
I have been told the Genos came 5-6 years ago with a complete new software concept : better sound and better drums than ever before ...

Indeed the Genos is built on a different operating system than the Tyros series.

The Revo! drums were introduced with the Genos, but that has nothing to do with the operating system.

Also the hardware platform is different (please see PJ's website "Sand, software and sound" for detailed information) which enabled better samples.


Maarten
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on February 23, 2023, 02:59:09 PM
Indeed the Genos is built on a different operating system than the Tyros series...
We will never really know, but ... my impression is, that only interface was adapted to touch screen. Yes, there were few options added, but at the same time Genos inherited limitations from previous generation: clumsy style editor, only partial voice editing possibility, YEM dependence & limitations, etc. That is, maybe OS is "new", but from users perspective, not much has changed. Or if I make a parallel comparison, it's similar difference as is between PSR-S970 and PSR-SX900 -which is not that big.
And that's why I said I wish (for sake of competition) Yamaha to come with something actually new.

I expect many to disagree with my opinion.. I respect that  :)
Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 23, 2023, 04:50:51 PM
We will never really know, but ... my impression is, that only interface was adapted to touch screen. Yes, there were few options added, but at the same time Genos inherited limitations from previous generation: clumsy style editor, only partial voice editing possibility, YEM dependence & limitations, etc. That is, maybe OS is "new", but from users perspective, not much has changed. Or if I make a parallel comparison, it's similar difference as is between PSR-S970 and PSR-SX900 -which is not that big.
And that's why I said I wish (for sake of competition) Yamaha to come with something actually new.

I expect many to disagree with my opinion.. I respect that  :)
Bogdan

Hey Bogdan :

As I said in my previous message I am absolutely not familiar with the Genos at all ... but ... you might be right many Genos' owners wiil disagree with your words.
Wait and see IF they are willing to comment your statement.

Best regards, JH


 
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: DerekA on February 23, 2023, 05:04:21 PM
I think BogdanH is 100% correct.

The UI may have had a facelift, and perhaps the actual OS code was rewritten, but in terms of what it actually does - what we'd call the "functional specification" - very little is different from Tyros 5.

(Some exceptions - Chord looper, assignable knobs and buttons, storing DSP parameter settings in registrations, search, playlist)

It is all, fundamentally, based on the XG specification that's been around for many years.

(For the avoidance of doubt I am very fond of my Genos, as an overall package including content it's better than the Tyros 5)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: travlin-easy on February 23, 2023, 05:17:28 PM
I guess I look at this in a different light. Why make drastic changes to a great product? Think about the Volkswagen Beetle, a car that went unchanged for decades, other than some very minor exterior modifications. That product stood the test of time, and continues to sell like hotcakes every new year model. The same goes for the Genos, it looks great, sounds fantastic, does more things than most members of the forum are capable of accomplishing, and is extremely reliable, which is a great asset for full-time musical entertainers who put it to work for them every day of the week.

I agree, there are a few individuals that want things their way, new features that would rarely be used by the masses. Some of those changes would be easy to facilitate with software updates, while others would require more drastic undertakings and additional hardware modifications. From the standpoint of practicality, I sincerely believe that Yamaha is on the right track, with only minor modifications with new, TOTL models. Korg seems to be headed in the right direction as well, while Roland got out of the arranger keyboard business and is trying to keep it's head above water with it's current models.

Is this horse dead yet?;)

Gary  8)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on February 23, 2023, 07:00:50 PM
.......

Is this horse dead yet?;)

Gary  8)
Do you mean the Ketron-horse or the Yamaha-horse? ;)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: RONBO on February 23, 2023, 07:17:18 PM
I think he means this entire thread
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on February 23, 2023, 07:28:51 PM
Yes, I know: just kiddin'  ;)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Amwilburn on February 23, 2023, 08:04:20 PM
I guess I look at this in a different light. Why make drastic changes to a great product? Think about the Volkswagen Beetle, a car that went unchanged for decades, other than some very minor exterior modifications. That product stood the test of time, and continues to sell like hotcakes every new year model. The same goes for the Genos, it looks great, sounds fantastic, does more things than most members of the forum are capable of accomplishing, and is extremely reliable, which is a great asset for full-time musical entertainers who put it to work for them every day of the week.

I agree, there are a few individuals that want things their way, new features that would rarely be used by the masses. Some of those changes would be easy to facilitate with software updates, while others would require more drastic undertakings and additional hardware modifications. From the standpoint of practicality, I sincerely believe that Yamaha is on the right track, with only minor modifications with new, TOTL models. Korg seems to be headed in the right direction as well, while Roland got out of the arranger keyboard business and is trying to keep it's head above water with it's current models.

Is this horse dead yet?;)

Gary  8)

I know what you mean, but the Beetle was unfortunately discontinued in 2019

Mark
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on February 23, 2023, 09:05:00 PM
I think BogdanH is 100% correct.

The UI may have had a facelift, and perhaps the actual OS code was rewritten, but in terms of what it actually does - what we'd call the "functional specification" - very little is different from Tyros 5.

(Some exceptions - Chord looper, assignable knobs and buttons, storing DSP parameter settings in registrations, search, playlist)

It is all, fundamentally, based on the XG specification that's been around for many years.

(For the avoidance of doubt I am very fond of my Genos, as an overall package including content it's better than the Tyros 5)

Which is exactly why later this year it would not surprise me if we see a Genos+ rather than a Genos II.
With double the polyphony to allow for seamless sound switching, all expansions preloaded, additional styles and some more sounds (including the Bosendorfer piano) there would be plenty to talk about and demo.
Add in a white version to grab people's attention also.

It would still be better than a Pa5X (and probably also a Ketron) in my opinion.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 24, 2023, 07:59:15 AM
Hey Andrew :

Montage's brand name will no longer exist, neither will the brand name Genos, IMHO.

Yamaha will introduce ( Sept/Oct 2023 ) a complete new high end arranger that will blow the competition out of the water ( list price Euro 5,500 ? ).

You may call my statement " pure speculation " but ... time will tell who might be right. ;)

As of last week Yamaha started a Genos' promotion here, Dutch list price : Euro 4,419 -- Genos' speaker set, free of charge included.
Apparently Yamaha have approx. 800 Genos pcs ready for this special action.
Delivery time : 3-4 weeks after dealer's order input.

I wonder if this action will become a success.  ???


Best wishes, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Christophermoment on February 24, 2023, 03:34:48 PM




Is this horse dead yet?;)

Gary  8)

Apparently not. The horse was on its knees and then someone came along with a piece of ginger, and kapow!!!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Ryszard Bieszczad on February 25, 2023, 10:18:15 AM
Bartek Krzemiński - Polish Ketron Event presenter

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YLBPAmFXhg
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on February 25, 2023, 11:16:44 AM
Tnx @Erbis, good find. That's the vids I'm looking for, great enthousiastic player! I will refrain from criticizing anyone who wants to buy/ has a Ketron Event ..  ;) Just one of the top keyboards
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on February 25, 2023, 01:08:54 PM
Bartek Krzemiński - Polish Ketron Event presenter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YLBPAmFXhg
Finally, a quality demo. Thanks for the link, Erbis. Bartek is a good player and provides a wide variety of styles. Here are my thoughts:



Once again, great demo. It would be nice if he played an actual song instead of all riffs. He's a great player. I’d like to hear him play something ;D.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rphillipchuk on February 25, 2023, 01:44:28 PM
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2090069784511693/?hoisted_section_header_type=recently_seen&multi_permalinks=2122341301284541

Copied from above facebook post.   "Cosimo OZ Orofino".  Written by Σωκράτης Καβλεντάκης

I don't really agree with the idea that this model is the best out there or the other is the best out there. I agree with the view that says: This is the best for me.
I personally have Arrangers from all companies (Yamaha Genos, Korg Pa3x, Ketron Audya, Ketron Event) as well as I had the opportunity to have in my studio for a month the new Pa5x which a store sent me when it was released in order to do some tests.
I will not go into more advanced functions (sampler, etc.) but I will be content with the spirit of your question.
So, I would suggest you think very seriously about what interests you most in an Arranger?
For example, if you are realistically looking for Styles, then you don't have to look too hard because there is only one choice and that is Ketron and especially Event.
The Event will offer you an excellent Factory palette of Styles with the main feature being Style Modeling where even a beginner can create a style that is needed in just a few minutes. You have in your hands a huge library of Real (audio) Drum, Real (audio) Bass, Real (audio) Chord, as well as two separate Midi Drums sections (Midi Programming & Midi Pattern), and finally three separate sections with a very large collection of Audio Sliced Percussions Grooves. We also have at our disposal a huge variety of Midi Arp, Licks, Piano, Guitars, Synth Arp etc.
All of these can be combined in real time and saved as a Style.
It also has a very good Factory palette of Solo Voices that most of them sound very good without needing additional settings. Event also has a very good new feature called PERFORMANCE which is like the Song Book (by Korg) where we can easily create our repertoire by storing and organizing an unlimited number of Registrations, Styles and Voices.
Of course, there are still problems in the OS, but the company shows that it is trying to solve them since the first OS 1.1.0 was released very quickly.
Yamaha on the other hand with the Genos has a different approach.
It has a very good and easy-to-use OS which you learn very quickly. We also have to say that it has (by far) the most reliable and stable OS that exists now. You forget the anxiety that it may (freeze) in a Live or have any kind of problem in a concert.
You just turn it on and play. The sound design has (in my opinion) the best and smartest programming I've ever played.
But according to my criteria, a few additional settings are needed to get what I want.
The Styles are mostly very good and if I singled out something it would be the EDM category (the best I've played) as well as some Big Band Swing which really makes you think there is a Real Band next to you.
The Registrations and the Playlist are really excellent having (also here) the possibility to have an unlimited number of musical repertoire which we have created especially for our needs.
Korg, on the other hand, with the new Pa5x, I think has made a difference from its older Pa models. It has a much more improved sound, new solo sounds, several new Styles and by far the best Mixer that exists in all other Arrangers since it has a separate full parametric 4 band EQ with separate High Pass/Low Pass Filter on each channel (either Style or Sound) (this doesn't exist anywhere and is particularly important), as well as having a Style Finalizer (EQ, Compressor) with separate setting and storage in each style EXCELLENT!!
But because the Pa5x has a completely new OS, it still has several problems and bugs that need to be solved in order to be reliable. I think Korg will slowly solve them through updates.
His solo sounds are quite good although for my taste I can't say I particularly liked them.
His styles are ok, but the majority of these styles come from very old models and I think it has become boring now the same and the same sound. Of course, they have made many new Styles, but again, at least I was not particularly satisfied.
It also has the very good Song Book which has tremendous options and possibilities for creating our repertoires.
So, let's summarize them.
1) Ketron Event: The Event is produced by a very small Italian company that has managed to have a very good (plug and play) sound, and particularly realistic Styles. I know very well that the company makes a great effort to solve as soon as possible several problems in the OS (bugs, etc.) and this is proven by the fact that, less than two months after the release of the instrument, it released the 1.1.0 OS Update in contrast with Korg which took 6 months for the first OS 1.1.0.
2) Yamaha Genos: Has the most stable OS out there by far.
Very good and clear sound, very good styles which have EXCELLENT PROGRAMMING and exquisitely designed solo sounds. The best programming in my opinion. Registration/Playlist is an amazing tool.
3) Korg Pa5x: Even with whatever issues and shortcomings the OS may have, there is still no other OS out there right now that is as complete as the Pa5x. The depth in editing is admirable, as long as the user is familiar and knows what he wants from it. It has by far the best tools (EQ, Insert FX, Finalizer Style, and many other useful functions. Its sound is quite better and more refined than all previous models and I would rate it as quite good.

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on February 25, 2023, 02:03:52 PM
@rphillipchuk; thanks for the translation. It is a good summary! Great for us to have choices in 2023 and and good for the consumer that there is good competition between the producers.  ;)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Ryszard Bieszczad on February 25, 2023, 03:05:13 PM
Bartek Krzemiński - Polish Ketron Event presenter (part 1)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiWZF85LXAA
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on February 25, 2023, 03:47:17 PM
Nice summary posted by rphillipchuck.
The bottom line is that these 3 keyboards are all excellent state of the art products, with some different strengths, and all capable of great performance in the right hands. These are the Mercedes, Lexus, Porche of the arranger world, not the VWBeetle. The TOTL models of these brands are all excellent yet still strive for constant improvements with with each new issue, and still have enough differences to all grab their own market share. There is no “best” between them. Just preference.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rphillipchuk on February 25, 2023, 04:24:11 PM
Nice summary posted by rphillipchuck.
The bottom line is that these 3 keyboards are all excellent state of the art products, with some different strengths, and all capable of great performance in the right hands. These are the Mercedes, Lexus, Porche of the arranger world, not the VWBeetle. The TOTL models of these brands are all excellent yet still strive for constant improvements with with each new issue, and still have enough differences to all grab their own market share. There is no “best” between them. Just preference.
Mike

Nicely Said
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 25, 2023, 05:35:03 PM
First of all I want to thank all members for their very interesting and very useful input and/or comments. :)

There IS one important difference between those 3 champions though :

The PA5X and the Event are the newest competitors' high end arrangers introduced in 2022. ( I agree, the PA5X and the Event seem to be very qualified arrangers ).
BUT ... the NEW Yamaha high end Genos' successor is not shown / known yet. Hopefully it will be in in Sept / Oct 2023.

IMHO, we have to wait for Yamaha's new born baby before we are in the position / able to compare all these 3 new arrangers.

Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 27, 2023, 10:55:22 AM
Hi Guys :

Ketron announced most dealers will receive their first Event stock in a couple of weeks. Cross my fingers.  :)
Hopefully then the final list price will be known.

Today I have uploaded the Event's manual if you might be interested.

Plse download this link before March 6, 2023. After March 6, 2023 this link will automatically be deleted.

Download link : English manual Event.

https://wetransfer.com/downloads/b6d04f802b99aad5708204edbb58b3ca20230227102754/3bb2637a9e386fd78d2c13511b0505f920230227102754/7a764b

Personally I would like to know much more about the " MIDI styles and ( midi ) features " of the Event.
Your input would be highly appreciated.

Best regards, JH

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rikkisbears on February 28, 2023, 01:24:05 AM

https://youtu.be/7ILXMhnqabE

Hi Jeff, someone posted this on Korg forum. The guy mentions something about being able to turn a .kst Ketron style , into a .mid file for editing. Then changing it back to a .kst file.  That really peaked my interest.
I got someone to send me .kst file. Changed it to .mid. It showed up in xgworks , markers included, but , had no luck changing .mid extension back to .kst. Maybe I was doing something wrong, but I couldn’t get it to work.
(Tried it with an old  Ketron .pat file, just out of interest , no luck at all with that one )
I had asked on Synthzone if midi styles could be event listed or imported/exported as midi files, answer was a bit cryptic, but I think he said no.
If your manual is the same one as I downloaded off Ketron Italy a while back, I couldn’t find a great deal on style editing. Maybe there’s 2 versions , a simple and an extended.  The one I read was about 200 pages.

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 28, 2023, 06:25:35 AM
Thank you very much for your feedback, Rikki ! :)

I hope Sokratis ( from Ketron ) would tell us more about the Event's midi styles and features ... the manual's midi information seems to be too superficial, IMO.
For you, me and many others it might be important to know, I guess.

To my knowledge the Event's styles are mostly ( 90% or more ? ) audio styles ...  and cannot be extracted for external editing, am I right ? ::)

Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on February 28, 2023, 06:37:11 AM
https://youtu.be/7ILXMhnqabE

Hi Jeff, someone posted this on Korg forum. The guy mentions something about being able to turn a .kst Ketron style , into a .mid file for editing. Then changing it back to a .kst file.  That really peaked my interest.
I got someone to send me .kst file. Changed it to .mid. It showed up in xgworks , markers included, but , had no luck changing .mid extension back to .kst. Maybe I was doing something wrong, but I couldn’t get it to work.
(Tried it with an old  Ketron .pat file, just out of interest , no luck at all with that one )
I had asked on Synthzone if midi styles could be event listed or imported/exported as midi files, answer was a bit cryptic, but I think he said no.
If your manual is the same one as I downloaded off Ketron Italy a while back, I couldn’t find a great deal on style editing. Maybe there’s 2 versions , a simple and an extended.  The one I read was about 200 pages.
Hello.
You probably did something wrong. The Ketron way via file extension renaming trust me works great because it's something I deal with every day. So this way is quite similar to that of Yamaha (.STY) with the difference that in the case of Ketron we can create directly in the midi file, and different versions of Minor, Major in Intro and Endings, which is particularly difficult with Yamaha, complicated and of course requires third party software (not free). When we complete the process in the daw we are working on (Cubase, Logic, Reaper etc.) we just export midi file as (0) 480 PPQ midi file and not (1) midi file.
In the cases where it didn't work it was my fault, as for example there were some cases whereas a style in the Event, it didn't play when I played Minor but only in Major. Trying to find out what's wrong, I went into the Event's onboard Style Edit and saw that there was a separate Minor version without me having created it. Then I did the very simple thing: I deleted the Minor version, saved the style again and everything was fixed now. By the way as you well know this kind of editing is simply a no-go (on board) on any Yamaha Arranger keyboard and I honestly don't know why they are so (closed) on editing.
Anyway, out of curiosity (to avoid a similar mistake in the future) I reopened this midi style project in Cubase 12 and I discovered that within a variation some notes had escaped a little to the right of the Major Marker and had entered the Minor Marker resulting in (accidentally) creating a minor version which I deleted directly in the Event.
And I'm sorry to say it again but it doesn't make sense to call something a Workstation without providing all the tools needed to create something on board.
And unfortunately, Yamaha at this point (when it comes to on board edit on arrangers keyboards) he is not doing well at all.
I apologize if I upset some friends about this. As you know I still have Genos and I'm still working with it in my Lives (since music is my main job) because I haven't prepared the Event yet.
And since our friend Jeff above asks about Midi files in the Event, I'd like you to watch a video I uploaded a few days ago about this item.
Thanks
https://youtu.be/cdXv_usWa54
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on February 28, 2023, 07:08:13 AM
Thank you very much for your feedback, Rikki ! :)

I hope Sokratis ( from Ketron ) would tell us more about the Event's midi styles and features ... the manual's midi information seems to be too superficial, IMO.
For you, me and many others it might be important to know, I guess.

To my knowledge the Event's styles are mostly ( 90% or more ? ) audio styles ...  and cannot be extracted for external editing, am I right ? ::)

Best regards, JH
Hi Jeff.
It's not exactly like that. Here I must clarify something because there is (as far as I can see) a confusion. Ketron Audio Styles are not related to Yamaha Audio Styles. Yamaha uses a different file called (.aus) which contains in the same (monolithic file) the Audio elements (audio drum). So, while as far as I have tried, we can change the extension from. aus to .mid and edit or modify it on our computer (daw) however, in this case the Audio files will be permanently lost.
Ketron has things somewhat different, and I would say simpler. That is: The style file type is one and it is. KST which is nothing more than a MIDI sequence with all that implies. All other components (Real Audio Drums, etc.) are placed on board where the style file also has the Change Program required to directly load the corresponding Real Drum or any other file from disk.
Therefore, when we want to create a style (audio style) where the midi sequence will be orchestrated based on any external drum we want, then we simply either import our audio files into the daw we are working on (Cubase etc.) and we work on our orchestration based on Audio Drums, or we have the ability to work 100% onboard and complete our style.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 28, 2023, 08:38:51 AM
Hello Sokratis :

I am very grateful for your fast reaction !  :)
Thank you so much for your answers. :D

Your very interesting and useful midi explanation will surely help a lot of people ( like me e.g. ) who had question marks about the Event's midi applications.  :)
Not only the sound of the Event is excellent but it looks like the Event seems to be a real workstation too.  :)

I have just been reading attentively your 2 last messages, and ... the Event might be a very serious competitor for the new Yamaha ( we do not know yet ) and the PA5X of Korg.

I should not be surprised the Event's sales could become impressive if the ( worldwide ) Ketron's distribution and after sales service might work well. Cross my fingers  ;)

Best regards, JH
 
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on February 28, 2023, 04:16:43 PM
I think that there is a lot of awkward must do's and must not's. All looks crammed to me.
I still think that our Genos is much easier to understand  and better spaced out when it comes to changing this and that.
I will stick with the Genos as i have no compaints about it, only,when are we going to get the next one 8)
With the Genos if people utilized the pads to enhance tracks and got stuck into all the effects it is surprising what you get out of this machine. :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on February 28, 2023, 07:56:24 PM
Hi John :

For so many years you are so familiar and so happy with Yamaha's high end arrangers.
You know all ins, all outs, all pros and cons ( by heart ).

There is absolutely no reason to kill a winning horse and buy an other brand you do not know. Why should you ?

Take care, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on February 28, 2023, 09:44:33 PM
Good point, Jeff.

My big requirement is, a keyboard must workable in a live environment. When you're playing at home away from the stresses of the stage, you have the luxury of time. When on stage, things need to be right at your finger tips.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on February 28, 2023, 09:50:01 PM
I think that there is a lot of awkward must do's and must not's. All looks crammed to me.
I still think that our Genos is much easier to understand  and better spaced out when it comes to changing this and that.
I will stick with the Genos as i have no compaints about it, only,when are we going to get the next one 8)
With the Genos if people utilized the pads to enhance tracks and got stuck into all the effects it is surprising what you get out of this machine. :)

I would say the Genos is much easier/more straightforward to use than the Korg Pa5X. I couldn't figure out how the Matrix pads on the Pa5X worked at all, or at least how to customise them with your own recordings. I looked at a video and understood it even less afterwards. No joke. If you want to give yourself a headache try following along: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B70jZuqEXzI&t=2s&ab_channel=ForeverLearning

On the Genos I have made my own pads in places where I felt I had to or just wanted to. I've bought styles with pads and understand how they have been done, added and how they link to new sounds sometimes etc. I don't even know if such things are available to buy / expand for the Korg at all. There is very little debate about it on the Korg forums and in the Pa5X group so no clue.

The Pa5X does have nice in built "pad" options for each style. I had a lot of fun with those and got more into a jamming mode of increasing intensity so from style variation 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 and backwards and using those pads as alterations. I never tried this much on the Genos but I suspect it is quite easily possible with the in built multi pads also, they are just not pre-selected for you necessarily. The weird thing is, because of the additional accompanying rhythm pads on the Pa5X I missed registrations on that keyboard even more, since there are more in built style variations in a sense. There are for example far less styles that had the boring drum hits and cymbal style hit multipads we see on the Genos. They are full fledged additional rhythms in most cases so can help to increase intensity with styles even more so.

But that was certainly one good thing about the Pa5X. But your own custom pads? Yeah no clue on the Korg, and the Genos I reckon is far easier to manage in that department. It is easy to record a piece of music (wav or midi) and assign it to a multipad. On the Korg there appears to be heavy restrictions with matrix pad with tempo etc. If Korg don't alter the way those Matrix pads are configured I reckon for the vast majority of users they will simply never be used. It looks like a sort of defunct drum pad controller area you see on midi controller keyboards.

This is coming from someone who doesn't read manuals btw.  ;)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: travlin-easy on February 28, 2023, 10:27:42 PM
Having owned several brands of keyboard, Korg, Roland, Yamaha, etc..., when it came to onstage abilities, Yamaha beat the others, hands down. Each of the other brands were not nearly as comprehensible when it came to creating registrations, song books (Music Finder Directory), modifying styles, and modifying onboard voices. Additionally, there are more song-specific, third-party styles available for Yamaha's arranger keyboards than all the other brands combined.

Now, there are folks that would like to argue that Roland and Korg are just as easy to navigate while on stage, but after more than 3 decades as an musical entertainer and singer, performing up to 450 jobs a year, I was always comfortable with my mid-range priced Yamaha's when I walked on stage in front of a crowd that wanted to party and dance the night away. I knew the sounds the audiences would hear would get them out of their chairs and on the dance floor and I was always to keep dead time down to 1 or 2 seconds. This was never possible, at least from my experience, with Korg or Roland. Just too much to navigate through in order to get to that next song.

Home players have the luxury of being able to sit down and spend hours and even days working on a single song. There is no audience in front of them, waiting patiently for the next song to start. When I performed for ballroom dancers, which I really didn't enjoy doing, if the dead time between songs was greater than 10 seconds, they took off their ballroom dance shoes, placed them in a duffel bag and headed for the nearest exit. For those audiences, I had to rely on a combination of the MFD and registrations in order to provide seamless music, which is what they demanded throughout the performance.

Unfortunately, due health issues, I am no longer able to perform on stage and fill those dance floors with happy people who want to dance the night away and party hearty.

The best advice I have for all those who have contributed to this lengthy thread is: explore all the features of your keyboard, regardless of brand, listen to ALL the onboard and 3-rd party styles available, and then ask yourself "Do I really want to learn another operating system?"

Good luck, on whatever you decide upon,

Gary 8)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rikkisbears on March 01, 2023, 03:06:37 AM
Hello.
You probably did something wrong. The Ketron way via file extension renaming trust me works great because it's something I deal with every day. So this way is quite similar to that of Yamaha (.STY) with the difference that in the case of Ketron we can create directly in the midi file, and different versions of Minor, Major in Intro and Endings, which is particularly difficult with Yamaha, complicated and of course requires third party software (not free). When we complete the process in the daw we are working on (Cubase, Logic, Reaper etc.) we just export midi file as (0) 480 PPQ midi file and not (1) midi file.
In the cases where it didn't work it was my fault, as for example there were some cases whereas a style in the Event, it didn't play when I played Minor but only in Major. Trying to find out what's wrong, I went into the Event's onboard Style Edit and saw that there was a separate Minor version without me having created it. Then I did the very simple thing: I deleted the Minor version, saved the style again and everything was fixed now. By the way as you well know this kind of editing is simply a no-go (on board) on any Yamaha Arranger keyboard and I honestly don't know why they are so (closed) on editing.
Anyway, out of curiosity (to avoid a similar mistake in the future) I reopened this midi style project in Cubase 12 and I discovered that within a variation some notes had escaped a little to the right of the Major Marker and had entered the Minor Marker resulting in (accidentally) creating a minor version which I deleted directly in the Event.
And I'm sorry to say it again but it doesn't make sense to call something a Workstation without providing all the tools needed to create something on board.
And unfortunately, Yamaha at this point (when it comes to on board edit on arrangers keyboards) he is not doing well at all.
I apologize if I upset some friends about this. As you know I still have Genos and I'm still working with it in my Lives (since music is my main job) because I haven't prepared the Event yet.
And since our friend Jeff above asks about Midi files in the Event, I'd like you to watch a video I uploaded a few days ago about this item.
Thanks
https://youtu.be/cdXv_usWa54

Hi Sokratis,
actually, pretty sure  it wasn’t my mistake after all, the guy who did the video  ( at roughly 6 minutes in) said to change extension from .kst to .mid , do the editing, change extension back to .kst . That of course doesn’t work.
Makes one wonder what else he may not have quite correct. I don’t think he actually has hands on experience with it yet.😀

So thank you. Basically I’ve been trying to find if Ketron event  midi based styles ( not audio) could be created and edited in a Daw and if there is some sort of import/export function similar to my Korg .
So if I’m understanding correctly, I would just have to change .kst to .mid , load into daw , edit, re-save as .mid 0 and load back into Ketron ?  if so ,that is super easy.
What is Event’s “onboard style edit” ie is there some sort of event list editor  ie for notes, controllers etc or are you referring to something else altogether.

The guy in the video also mentioned something about creating your own audio styles ( about 5 min in). He was talking about hiring musicians to help record your loops ( maybe a bit expensive 😟), but could you actually create an audio style using your own audio loops ie just say strumming guitar.
 Where would these loops have to be saved ie in Ketron itself or external storage.
My Band in a box software springs to mind as a possible loop source. They do take up a lot of storage capacity, hence the question, is it even possible? I might have misunderstood what he was suggesting.
Last question, towards end of video he said it has a sampler. I thought it was only capable of editing samples, if it does have one, then brilliant.

https://youtu.be/7ILXMhnqabE

Thank you

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rikkisbears on March 01, 2023, 03:50:08 AM
I would say the Genos is much easier/more straightforward to use than the Korg Pa5X. I couldn't figure out how the Matrix pads on the Pa5X worked at all, or at least how to customise them with your own recordings. I looked at a video and understood it even less afterwards. No joke. If you want to give yourself a headache try following along: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B70jZuqEXzI&t=2s&ab_channel=ForeverLearning


Hi Andrew, no wonder you’re confused, my heads spinning too.

I think matrix with future updates is going to be able to do more than just be an extension of the multipads.
Bank 4 of the Matrix , actually has a function. It mutes style tracks. All the other banks contain just the pads, hence I think they could probably do more with them.
All I’ve done with my matrix at the moment , is assign  the multi pads I want , to the matrix pads. Whereas the 4 multi pads are assigned to  styles, the matrix pads  are just there, they don’t change, unless you change them.
Pity you never got to do your own. Don’t know if you tried the style to pad function. Brilliant simple way to make pads. You just pick a style, pick the variation, pick the track. Press execute, and you have a looping pad that you can use with any of the styles or in the matrix. Basically any style track , can be made into a pad. And vice versa. Pads can be copied into styles.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on March 01, 2023, 06:20:36 AM
Hi Sokratis,
actually, pretty sure  it wasn’t my mistake after all, the guy who did the video  ( at roughly 6 minutes in) said to change extension from .kst to .mid , do the editing, change extension back to .kst . That of course doesn’t work.
Makes one wonder what else he may not have quite correct. I don’t think he actually has hands on experience with it yet.😀

So thank you. Basically I’ve been trying to find if Ketron event  midi based styles ( not audio) could be created and edited in a Daw and if there is some sort of import/export function similar to my Korg .
So if I’m understanding correctly, I would just have to change .kst to .mid , load into daw , edit, re-save as .mid 0 and load back into Ketron ?  if so ,that is super easy.
What is Event’s “onboard style edit” ie is there some sort of event list editor  ie for notes, controllers etc or are you referring to something else altogether.

The guy in the video also mentioned something about creating your own audio styles ( about 5 min in). He was talking about hiring musicians to help record your loops ( maybe a bit expensive 😟), but could you actually create an audio style using your own audio loops ie just say strumming guitar.
 Where would these loops have to be saved ie in Ketron itself or external storage.
My Band in a box software springs to mind as a possible loop source. They do take up a lot of storage capacity, hence the question, is it even possible? I might have misunderstood what he was suggesting.
Last question, towards end of video he said it has a sampler. I thought it was only capable of editing samples, if it does have one, then brilliant.

https://youtu.be/7ILXMhnqabE

Thank you
Hi Riki.
So, let's take them in order.

1) Regarding the conversion of the style from .KST to .Mid.
It will not destroy the style if we rename it from .KST to .MID and without any changes rename it back to .KST. It continues to be fully functional and contain all its components. I have described the process when you want to edit it on your computer. And yes. It is that easy.

2) In the sense of (onboard edit style) it is the same thing as the Style Creator of Genos and all Yamaha arrangers. The difference here (as in Korg) is that we can complete a style in which we will be able to have both Major/Minor versions in Intro and Ending or in a variation thing which in Yamaha (always on board) is impossible. On Yamaha even on PC/Mac it is extremely difficult and extremely complicated as well as we should have bought special software for this work (Style Magic etc.).

3) Yes, you understood correctly. The Event from the first day of its release allows us to create our own (user) Real Audio Chords, and Real Audio Bass which are stored in the Event's SSD and can in a particularly simple way follow the chords of a style. I have been asked many times in this post about the same issue. And yes, you are right that Band in a Box would be a great source of Audio Elements.

4) And finally, yes. Of course, it has a 1 Giga sampler and another 1.5 Giga in which we load additional (extra) factory sounds.

Finally, let me make a point. I see some friends here writing and re-writing that the Event is not for them and that they will stay with Yamaha. I would like to say the following:
They will do well to stay with Yamaha because the Event is something very different and if you are not ready for such a change it will be very difficult especially in learning. Of course, later it will also come in Module form (as Ketron is used to) so maybe someone will think to combine it with their Yamaha. It will be something very interesting. Personally, I already did it, since I have played in some Live gigs, several times with Genos and Event together.
However, I would like to say (basically to say it again) that I am not the one who opened this topic, nor the one who keeps it as the first topic for so many months having reached 898 Replies, and 64,945 Views so far. But (and this surprises me) I don't remember another topic that has lasted so long and with so many comments. And I tell you again that I am not the one who keeps (alive) this issue.
Although for many years I have been a daily visitor to this Forum and I read the topics every day, nevertheless in this matter (which in some way concerns me), I do not intervene except when I judge that I need to clarify something.
So to summarize (on the topic of the Event) I would like to say again that it is a very creative instrument which has every right to be called (Workstation) because one can create anything on the instrument, and also it is something quite different from Yamaha (but also from Korg).
As far as I'm concerned, I've never told anyone but also I didn't imply that it's time for you to leave Yamaha and switch to Ketron. would be very foolish to say such a thing. But since this issue is open (from you) I am at least obliged to clarify certain things when I judge that they should be clarified.
Thank you very much!!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rikkisbears on March 01, 2023, 06:54:58 AM
Thank you Sokratis, I won’t be selling my PA5x or my sx900, but I would sure love to add the module version of the Event when it becomes available. It sounds very impressive. Just hoping we have a reliable supplier here in Aust. by then. Apparently we have a new one😀Our last one , the newest module they had online  a few months back , was an Audya😳. Fortunately there’s time to get established.

Love it that Ketron makes modules, can’t fit another keyboard.😀

Thanks again.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 01, 2023, 09:51:48 AM
Dear Sokratis :

This Event's thread is very important : 18 PAGES already ... believe me it is not the end yet. ;)

I like your very useful comments and inputs very much.
Not only me but ... ALL members do, IMHO.

You are very familiar with Yamaha's arrangers, a member of this forum, a real gentleman and your software knowledge is very important to all of us.

You are one of the Event's software developers ! WOW !  :)

Last but not least ...
Plse be so kind to continue to share your Event's knowledge here. Thank you !

Most of us are aware the Event seems to be a very important competitor ( in my perception ).

Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on March 01, 2023, 10:40:48 AM
Question for Sokratis...
I look at english Event manual (page 154):
A Sample is a WAV file, suitably treated and cut with a maximum duration of about 6 seconds

Maybe I understand above in a wrong context, but 6 second is kinda short time for a sample. For example, if creating custom piano voice, then a single piano note may require a sample length of 15+ seconds. Can you elaborate? Thank you.

Additional thoughts...
I think Ketron should make it's web page much more international (english) friendly. As it is now, even if switching to english language, a lot of content is still shown in italian only. There can be no excuse for this and only presents Ketron as some "garage" company (no pun intended).
On main page I see "New Event software available" (since 14th of February), but if I click on link button (written in italian), I get "Page not found" -again, such things shouldn't happen.

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 01, 2023, 11:50:29 AM
Hey Bogdan :

I fully agree with your comments.
Apparently Ketron seem not to have professional marketing and distribution experience at all.
It has been said so many times here.  :o
How many ears must this small company have to understand what the words " international and global business " really mean.
I have the impression the Event could be the goose with the golden eggs but ... we all know that is not enough to be successful.
If Ketron are not capable to find out how to " sell and distribute " their new born baby ... this arranger will never become mature, IMO.

Cheers, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on March 01, 2023, 06:05:29 PM
I realize more and more, how difficult is is to get a complete picture of some product (not only Ketron Event). The thing is, big majority of so called "reviews" and "honest opinions" are actually advertisements (paid one way or another). And then we have reviews or opinions coming from actual owner. Here we need to be careful again. Many times his previous keyboard is some older model, or is entirely in different (lower) class. And when that's the case, it's to be expected the reviewer to be over-excited and so, not really objective. The third thing that happens is, the reviewer mostly emphasizes on positive aspects of his new toy (and many times bashes competing products at that). Why? Don't know... maybe they feel better if they can somehow justify (and hopefully get confirmation about) their decision.

Why I made so long introduction? It's because of the following video, that just appeared on Youtube:
Ketron Event! Is it better than Medeli AKX10?! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XPpodkpiGg)

And so, as always, there's no bad or good keyboard. What matters is, which is the best for our needs -and no matter what we choose, there will always be a compromise.

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Duffy on March 01, 2023, 07:28:32 PM
That was a brilliant assessment, probably the best I have ever heard. All the minor things of major importance.
I was also amazed at how good the Medeli is. Very close to the Yamaha for the price of peanuts.
Thank you for such really good advice.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 01, 2023, 08:00:43 PM
After all these years Yamaha have never disappointed me nor let me down.
I believe all other members of this forum are sharing the same experience.

Tell me  ... why should I say goodbye to a loyal partner ?
Best wishes, JH


Edit 2023-03-01 by overover: Removed blank lines at the end of the post
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on March 01, 2023, 08:21:02 PM
Wow! What an eye-opener. Many thanks to Bojan Bojovic of Dynamix Audio for his no holds barred approach to the Ketron Event. The Event is now entirely off my purchase list. From the look of things, Ketron engineers seem to have never played an arranger keyboard. Engineers themselves are highly technical mathematicians in many cases but if they don't know anything about music or more importantly, playing a musical instrument, in this case, an electronic keyboard, the results can be hugely disappointing as is the case with the Ketron Event, apparently. Unless someone who works with Ketron would like to refute Bojovic's review and critique of the Event. Ketron started way back in the 1980s, so it's not like they're starting from scratch with little experience. Ketron is of course a very small company that employs between 26 and 39 people depending on the economic circumstances, I reckon. They have a small presence in the USA, but the Ketron USA website has NO information about the Event whatsoever. Even the Ketron Italy website which does have information about the Event has stated it's OUT OF STOCK for the last couple of months or longer. Apparently, Ketron's second shipment of Events will be in March, but if they only have around 40 people putting them together, I imagine there will only be a couple of hundred or so that will eventually ship in March. And if this new YouTube video gets a lot more traction i.e. a lot more views from the keyboard community, Ketron might not be able to sell all the batch they do ship out. We all wish Ketron well from a business standpoint, but facts are facts and if Ketron can't cut the mustard then obviously people will look elsewhere for their arranger keyboard needs. Once again, it's always best to play a keyboard first, up close and personal, before deciding to lay down your hard-earned cash. Which would include the Genos2 unless a person has no way to play one beforehand. That could have been the case with Bojan Bojovic. Lessons learned.

All the best, Mike USA         
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rikkisbears on March 01, 2023, 08:22:14 PM
Question for Sokratis...
I look at english Event manual (page 154):
A Sample is a WAV file, suitably treated and cut with a maximum duration of about 6 seconds

Maybe I understand above in a wrong context, but 6 second is kinda short time for a sample. For example, if creating custom piano voice, then a single piano note may require a sample length of 15+ seconds. Can you elaborate? Thank you.


Bogdan

Hi Bogdan, you never cease to amaze. So by the sound of things ( excuse the pun 😀) 
 apparently PA5x can  quote “can handle a stereo sample of up to 21 seconds in duration “ the guy who wrote it is one of the Korg forum  experts, not from Korg, but creates amazing sound libraries for Korg products. Has amazing piano and symphonic libraries.

Didn’t mean much to me  sampling lengths etc haven’t done any in years and even then it was only drum kits.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on March 01, 2023, 09:06:34 PM
hi Rikki,
As I said, maybe I understood that 6sec limitation wrongly.. anyway, it should be clarified to avoid confusion.
I don't know if there is a length limit on my SX700.. there probably is, but I never hit it -so, it's non existent for me. Pa5X has limit of 21sec? Well, I could easily live with that, I guess  :)

I wish to emphasize again, that's not my intention to bash any keyboard or brand and I also don't try to convince anyone. Everybody should make his own conclusion and decision based on available information.
Now stop reading my blubbering and go practicing on whatever clunky keyboard you have  ;D

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: RoyB on March 01, 2023, 10:23:56 PM
The big thing for me from that video is how brilliant the Medeli AKX10 is for less than half the price of a SX900.

While there has been a lot of discussions on this forum about the Korg PA5X and Ketron Event as Genos competitors, and what we might see (or want to see) in a future Genos 2, perhaps the biggest competition to the Genos might be if Medeli was to release a Genos alternative for less than half the price of a Genos.

Regards

Roy
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Duffy on March 01, 2023, 11:10:55 PM
Wow! What an eye-opener. Many thanks to Bojan Bojovic of Dynamix Audio for his no holds barred approach to the Ketron Event. The Event is now entirely off my purchase list. From the look of things, Ketron engineers seem to have never played an arranger keyboard. Engineers themselves are highly technical mathematicians in many cases but if they don't know anything about music or more importantly, playing a musical instrument, in this case, an electronic keyboard, the results can be hugely disappointing as is the case with the Ketron Event, apparently. Unless someone who works with Ketron would like to refute Bojovic's review and critique of the Event. Ketron started way back in the 1980s, so it's not like they're starting from scratch with little experience. Ketron is of course a very small company that employs between 26 and 39 people depending on the economic circumstances, I reckon. They have a small presence in the USA, but the Ketron USA website has NO information about the Event whatsoever. Even the Ketron Italy website which does have information about the Event has stated it's OUT OF STOCK for the last couple of months or longer. Apparently, Ketron's second shipment of Events will be in March, but if they only have around 40 people putting them together, I imagine there will only be a couple of hundred or so that will eventually ship in March. And if this new YouTube video gets a lot more traction i.e. a lot more views from the keyboard community, Ketron might not be able to sell all the batch they do ship out. We all wish Ketron well from a business standpoint, but facts are facts and if Ketron can't cut the mustard then obviously people will look elsewhere for their arranger keyboard needs. Once again, it's always best to play a keyboard first, up close and personal, before deciding to lay down your hard-earned cash. Which would include the Genos2 unless a person has no way to play one beforehand. That could have been the case with Bojan Bojovic. Lessons learned.

All the best, Mike USA       

I certainly agree about trying keyboards up close before purchase but this is getting increasingly difficult with the lack of keyboard shops these days.
I have bought every one of my boards from proper shops but there are no proper dealers left and I live in the 4 or 5 largest city in the country.
Such a shame about the Event because it is good in many ways and I have regard for Ketron's after using them (modules) for more than 20 years.
It sounds as though the new Korg is pretty disappointing so the way is open for Medeli to become a real major competitor to Yamaha.
They are certainly paying attention to detail and deserve to be rewarded for their efforts.
Before anyone starts shouting, I DO PLAY A YAMAHA Genos, but I play more than one keyboard and so, all the competition interests me until I rule them out.

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rikkisbears on March 02, 2023, 12:09:50 AM
hi Rikki,
As I said, maybe I understood that 6sec limitation wrongly.. anyway, it should be clarified to avoid confusion.
I don't know if there is a length limit on my SX700.. there probably is, but I never hit it -so, it's non existent for me. Pa5X has limit of 21sec? Well, I could easily live with that, I guess  :)

I wish to emphasize again, that's not my intention to bash any keyboard or brand and I also don't try to convince anyone. Everybody should make his own conclusion and decision based on available information.
Now stop reading my blubbering and go practicing on whatever clunky keyboard you have  ;D

Bogdan

Hi Bogdan, not the first time I’ve heard 6 seconds mentioned, maybe I read it in the manual or one of the video clips. Wouldn’t be a deal breaker for  me anyway.  If /or when I get into sampling again , it would be on the Korg.
I’m just fascinated by some of the Ketron functions, (I’m a technology junkie when it comes to keyboards) and since it wouldn’t be my only keyboard (module)  , some of its short comings  could be overlooked. Only real deal breaker for me , would be the reliability of the seller.  Not a good track record here in Aust. A friend of mine actually had a couple of solton’s back in the 90’s. Not even sure how he got them.
Tried to talk the store I used to work in , to try and get us one.  Not interested. Anything else we wanted, he would get for us.
We did finally get a large piano store that sold them.  Their salespeople didn’t bother to learn anything about them. The newest arranger  they had on the website last year was an Audya module.
Anyway, apparently we have a new distributor. If he can get them into a mainstream pro music store, I would definitely be interested.
One needs backup.  Something goes wrong with a Korg or a Yamaha, you get it fixed
( provided it’s not too old to bother with).
The Medeli sounds interesting ( haven’t watch full clip yet)  again, don’t think they’re sold here, or if they are , I haven’t come across them.

When they stopped making Technics back in early 2000, I sold mine shortly afterwards. My favourite brand  up till then I had 6 of them over the years. Not much point wasting time on something that was not going to be around anymore.

You need continuity.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on March 02, 2023, 06:54:10 AM
Question for Sokratis...
I look at english Event manual (page 154):
A Sample is a WAV file, suitably treated and cut with a maximum duration of about 6 seconds

Maybe I understand above in a wrong context, but 6 second is kinda short time for a sample. For example, if creating custom piano voice, then a single piano note may require a sample length of 15+ seconds. Can you elaborate? Thank you.

Additional thoughts...
I think Ketron should make it's web page much more international (english) friendly. As it is now, even if switching to english language, a lot of content is still shown in italian only. There can be no excuse for this and only presents Ketron as some "garage" company (no pun intended).
On main page I see "New Event software available" (since 14th of February), but if I click on link button (written in italian), I get "Page not found" -again, such things shouldn't happen.

Bogdan
Dear Bogdan.
Yes, there is indeed this 6 second limitation on samples.
The solution that exists in these cases when we want to load a large sample (eg a low piano note) is a easy fade from a Audio Editor (Wavelab etc).
But here we should emphasize something else. Without wanting to justify this (weakness) and because I am a professional developer for over 20 years which means I know very well the whole process of sampling from the moment of recording in the studio to the final phase of testing on the instrument, a sample most often develops within the first 2 to 3 seconds. For example: When a guitarist plays a note with his pen immediately the listener understands that this sound comes from a guitar because the (body) and harmonics which identify us that it is a guitar develop instantly. So, after the recognition and determination of the sound (Attack, Decay) follows the Sustain from which the sound (depending on the instrument) remains at a basic constant content and volume until it fades naturally. At this point of the sustain, someone intervenes with an easy fade out.
And for the real reason, see a small demo from a good friend of mine and excellent musician Thomas (he also collaborated in the development of Event with Ketron) how he made an Upright Piano sound in the sampler with size of the samples only 20mb.
EVENT SAMPLER UPRIGHT PIANO https://youtu.be/NT5xjV3CbUE

As well as another demo here with an Accordion also from the Event sampler (again from Thomas)
EVENT SAMPLER ACCORDION
https://youtu.be/jetTvdWn6Yw

And finally a favorite 90s sound that I sampled from my own Roland D50 (yes it still works) from which sound you will find (those who remember it) that all the familiar elements are developed before looping
EVENT SAMPLER LINEAR PAD (ROLAND D-50)
https://youtu.be/Y4shopz2A8A

However, it’s something I've been pointing out for a while now. I don't know if it will change through some update in the future. Regarding the poor presentation of the site (and in general the poor presentation of this instrument) it is also something that I have pointed out and as far as I know some efforts are already being made to improve or completely renew the site. Finally regarding the comparison video between Medeli AKX10 and Event I would like to say the following:
I saw from last night the video of the comparison of Medeli with the Event. However, I found some inaccuracies in this video and it was due to the fact that this guy is talking about things that don't exist when in reality they just need a different setting such as for example the organization of styles and sounds through a list selection as it is in all instruments. Also, some of the failures he mentioned have already been improved or are being improved in future updates.
Also, I was (lucky) to have this instrument (Medeli AKX10) one month ago in my studio and I had it at my disposal for more than two weeks and of course there was immediate compared to the Event, I must admit that the Medeli has an impressive number of positives especially for its price. It's incredible how a €700 or so instrument can have 768MB of RAM in the sampler and 40 stereo velocity layers.
Of course, it is obvious that the entire concept of Yamaha arrangers has been copy-pasted in Medeli, which is of course very good for the user who has these features at such a low price.
And probably Mendeli is a very promising company.
But I'm not too happy with its sound. It is clean and very good for its cost, but personally it does not impress me. And since I don't want to go on and on or tell anyone (I never did) I'd like to say this: Listen to your intuition. Buy what you want with the only criterion being your own aesthetics. When you are interested in something try to have your own opinion, whatever it may be by trying the product you are interested in. Everything else to me is just talk which after a point is meaningless.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on March 02, 2023, 09:12:07 AM
I realize more and more, how difficult is is to get a complete picture of some product (not only Ketron Event). The thing is, big majority of so called "reviews" and "honest opinions" are actually advertisements (paid one way or another). And then we have reviews or opinions coming from actual owner. Here we need to be careful again. Many times his previous keyboard is some older model, or is entirely in different (lower) class. And when that's the case, it's to be expected the reviewer to be over-excited and so, not really objective. The third thing that happens is, the reviewer mostly emphasizes on positive aspects of his new toy (and many times bashes competing products at that). Why? Don't know... maybe they feel better if they can somehow justify (and hopefully get confirmation about) their decision.

Why I made so long introduction? It's because of the following video, that just appeared on Youtube:
Ketron Event! Is it better than Medeli AKX10?! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XPpodkpiGg)

And so, as always, there's no bad or good keyboard. What matters is, which is the best for our needs -and no matter what we choose, there will always be a compromise.

Bogdan

Don't think I could use the Event based on that video. It's worse than the Pa5X. Endlessly farting around with the menus. I'm just not comfortable with using a touch screen whilst playing. Bizarre that all those features can only be controlled via touch screen and the wheel. Literally the only thing I use the wheel for on the Genos is changing tempo and even that isn't necessary.

The Medeli seems like a very decent sx700 ish alternative.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 02, 2023, 09:19:00 AM
Don't think I could use the Event based on that video. It's worse than the Pa5X. Endlessly farting around with the menus.

Hey Sokratis :

What is your reaction on Andrew's impression of the Event's screen use ?
Plse advise. Thanks, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on March 02, 2023, 10:21:26 AM
Hey Sokratis :

What is your reaction on Andrew's impression of the Event's screen use ?
Plse advise. Thanks, JH
Hi Jeff.
Improvement efforts are being made.
However, I played a small rough demo live-changing several sounds without any issues or lag.
Almost all the sounds are mine and most of them are played through the sampler. Also the style is a factory style but somewhat modified by me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-rTWaEfPYY
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Mark on March 02, 2023, 10:32:02 AM
Very interesting thread. I watched the video of comparison of Medeli AKX10 and Ketron Event.
I don't have any experience with ketron products and play Yamaha Genos as a hobbyist, since I don't need two keyboards I'm rather not interested in Event and will wait for the module which might have more sense for me, if at all, but I'll still express my opinion :)

I don't think that all the points raised in the video are accurate, although indeed some are certainly valid.

For example, Ketron has an ability to add a monitor with a touch screen (of any size and tilted as required). Of course it doesn't mean that the Event's screen could be larger but a descent workaround exists.

As for the buttons - well, I don't know whether they will break or not, I do see (visually) the same buttons on SD9/SD90 - did many Ketron owners complain? Probably people who consider buying Ketron Event should ask the owners (in a relevant FB group or something). As for the convenience - I do agree that the style control section could feature more buttons, but on the other hand the video doesn't mention advantages the Ketron event offers: up to 8 variations, different flavors depending on the chord, like CV in Korg (yeah, I know that Yamaha has somewhat similar although less powerful option available via external casm editors), obviously audio engine and more useful features like bass/chord locking. Of course every keyboard has its weaknesses and strengths, and I'm sure, Ketron Event is not ideal, I'm just saying that mentioning only the weak points is not fair.
I do agree that adding leds to the buttons like its done on Genos is the best option for a player though.

Its interesting BTW, whether we could use an external controller, especially with Ketron Event module when it will be released, to map the "missing" Style control buttons to the physical buttons of the controller - this might solve the issue as well. I understand that for the Event keyboard its not that practical to have an external midi controller, but for the module, why not? The same applies to the lack of +/- buttons and page navigation - maybe module version / future OS update could address that by providing a capability to map controller / improve the OS interface. Having said that, I do believe that all-in-all Ketron Interface is behind the other competitors...

Now regarding the style creation process - a feature that I'm interested in a lot. Well, I believe Ketron could improve the style creator, for example to give us a descent step editor inside the machine, an ability to copy/paste parts, record controller events, automations, etc. to attract the users wishing to create the styles on the keyboard itself. I tend to think that at some point the DAW will be required anyway, but for basic editing the style editor should provide  everything we need to create the style as well. Its not fair however to say the the style creation process on Yamaha is a breeze like the guy on the video says. I think an ability to rename the file and use DAW for editing is really good, at least way better than on Yamaha where we have to use third-party tools (what happens if Yamaha will come up with a new style format, like SFF3 or will introduce a completely new format? ). Again I'm not telling that Ketron is good or bad, after all I haven't owned Ketron as I said before, but just mentioning that it has good and weak points just like other brands.

Last point I would like to raise is the change list of OS 1.1.0 released by Ketron, which is available for free on their site. The amount of fixes is impressive! This makes me think that they realize that the product is not fully finished and they're seriously committed to improve it. So they add new features and fix the bugs - well, maybe they'll introduce the step editor and improve the Style Editing in future, add more insert effects and provide more capabilities to their sampler - who knows. They are small company and try to compete with Yamaha and Korg which is great.

So bottom line, I do not think that this video should distract all the potential buyers from this product that has a lot of benefits, although it lags behind Yamaha and Korg in some areas...
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on March 02, 2023, 12:29:16 PM
Hi Sokratis,
Thank you for explaining, I really appreciate. I'm not some piano player and I'm aware that it's quite rare to play single piano note for longer period of time. However, I do think that 6sec could be a limitation for those who play Classical piano pieces -in that case, it's not only about recognizing that the piano is being played. The thing is, piano basically only has two articulations that player uses: touch sensitivity and sustain -and both are equally important. I think, that's less problematic in case of accordion voice or similar, because here, voice is usually looped (and so 6sec is more than enough).

Now about Event vs Medeli video... Here I agree with Mark (above). We should interpret that video carefully -that was the reason for my longer intro in that post. What I'm saying is, Medeli is basically an SX700 class keyboard (at astonishing price, though) and as such, it can't be compared to any TOTL arranger. However, author of that video did make some valid points... I still think, that Yamaha has by far the best interface (incl. panel buttons) among arrangers: it's very aesthetic, logical, informative and easy to use. Korg has similar approach, but not there just yet in my opinion.
Event however, as soon we go into some options/settings, all we see is buttons, which all look the same, without any icons or similar (so we could differentiate them quickly). It somehow reminds me on control room of some nuclear plant (I never been there, though). And I also noticed that all names (buttons, voices, etc.) are written in capital letters and so they appear even more similar. Also, words are separated with underline ("_")  character... which again, reminds me on old DOS times.
From what I've seen and heard so far, I do believe that one can make exceptional performance on Event. But for many, that alone just isn't enough (considering the price).

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on March 02, 2023, 12:38:54 PM
Hi Sokratis,
Thank you for explaining, I really appreciate. I'm not some piano player and I'm aware that it's quite rare to play single piano note for longer period of time. However, I do think that 6sec could be a limitation for those who play Classical piano pieces -in that case, it's not only about recognizing that the piano is being played. The thing is, piano basically only has two articulations that player uses: touch sensitivity and sustain -and both are equally important. I think, that's less problematic in case of accordion voice or similar, because here, voice is usually looped (and so 6sec is more than enough).

Now about Event vs Medeli video... Here I agree with Mark (above). We should interpret that video carefully -that was the reason for my longer intro in that post. What I'm saying is, Medeli is basically an SX700 class keyboard (at astonishing price, though) and as such, it can't be compared to any TOTL arranger. However, author of that video did make some valid points... I still think, that Yamaha has by far the best interface (incl. panel buttons) among arrangers: it's very aesthetic, logical, informative and easy to use. Korg has similar approach, but not there just yet in my opinion.
Event however, as soon we go into some options/settings, all we see is buttons, which all look the same, without any icons or similar (so we could differentiate them quickly). It somehow reminds me on control room of some nuclear plant (I never been there, though). And I also noticed that all names (buttons, voices, etc.) are written in capital letters and so they appear even more similar. Also, words are separated with underline ("_")  character... which again, reminds me on old DOS times.
From what I've seen and heard so far, I do believe that one can make exceptional performance on Event. But for many, that alone just isn't enough (considering the price).

Bogdan
Thanks Bogdan.
Here I also have to say and admit that Yamaha has by far the best interface (incl. panel buttons) of all and perhaps the best and easiest and of course most stable OS that exists. However, here too there are weaknesses and limitations (mainly on board) and I don't think we need to mention them again.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 02, 2023, 02:51:04 PM
Another question, Sokratis :

Does the Event have midi multipads like most Yamaha's and Korg's ?
Thanks for your reply, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on March 02, 2023, 03:13:18 PM
...Yamaha... However, here too there are weaknesses and limitations (mainly on board) and I don't think we need to mention them again.
Absolutely agree!

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on March 02, 2023, 06:31:47 PM
I think the Genos has just the right balance between touch screen functions and surface controllers. As a performing musician, there may be the odd thing I'd like to see put back on the surface but I can't think of any at the moment.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: overover on March 03, 2023, 12:35:05 AM
Hi Chris,

I made a really big mess tonight. I feel very embarrassed. Can you remove and delete my profile. Thank you.

You already apologized, Danny. So it shouldn't be a problem anymore. We still value you as a forum member.

By the way, only Admins can delete user accounts, Global Moderators like me can't.


@all
After Danny1972 deleted his somewhat provocative post here and also his second post in which he apologized, I also removed all other posts that referred to Danny's posts that no longer exist.


Best regards,
Chris
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rikkisbears on March 03, 2023, 01:24:07 AM
Hi Chris, you are a brilliant moderator 😀
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on March 03, 2023, 01:46:44 AM
Thank you for your kind words Chris.

Can you point me to the Admin I need to speak to please.

Thank you.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rikkisbears on March 03, 2023, 01:56:20 AM
Hi Danny, hope you’re not planning on leaving 😞
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rikkisbears on March 03, 2023, 03:31:23 AM
Another question, Sokratis :

Does the Event have midi multipads like most Yamaha's and Korg's ?
Thanks for your reply, JH

Hi Jeff, couldn’t find anything on multipads, so don’t think so, has got an interesting feature, think it’s phrase. Think it was on one of AJAMSONIC  demos. A saxophone appeared to be playing a solo, bit like the soloists in BIAB. I wasn’t playing that close an attention, I was trying not to burn dinner at the time😀 anyway whatever was going on sounded pretty amazing. If Sokratis is still around, maybe he can tell us about it.   ( hopefully I wasn’t just daydreaming 😶‍🌫️ )
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on March 03, 2023, 03:41:45 AM
Hi Danny, hope you’re not planning on leaving 😞
I'm not leaving either but thanks for asking. After 3,000 or so posts, it didn't seem logical.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rikkisbears on March 03, 2023, 03:44:48 AM
I'm not leaving either but thanks for asking. After 3,000 or so posts, it didn't seem logical.
Hi Lee
why would I assume you would leave?
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: overover on March 03, 2023, 04:13:21 AM
Danny made an interesting comment about Genos players of all levels just being button pushers - or something like that. I can't remember the whole comment because the way this forum handles replies that invoke conflicts is to just press the Delete key, which makes all things just go away.

...

As mentioned above, Danny1972 had deleted his posts himself. As a result, the replies to those posts were no longer relevant, so I decided to delete those posts as well.


Best regards,
Chris
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on March 03, 2023, 06:04:46 AM
Hi Jeff, couldn’t find anything on multipads, so don’t think so, has got an interesting feature, think it’s phrase. Think it was on one of AJAMSONIC  demos. A saxophone appeared to be playing a solo, bit like the soloists in BIAB. I wasn’t playing that close an attention, I was trying not to burn dinner at the time😀 anyway whatever was going on sounded pretty amazing. If Sokratis is still around, maybe he can tell us about it.   ( hopefully I wasn’t just daydreaming 😶‍🌫️ )
Riki and Jeff.
The Event does not have a Multipad (for now). However, there is a possibility for something very powerful, but this is not of the present. However what you heard (with the saxophone) was just an Audio Real chord which normally accompanies our chords as if they were midi chords.
This is the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaAwJCnEeLg
By the way, because it's always been heard that Ketron only has Audio styles and although I've said that she's also very good in midi, listen to a 100% midi style from the Event.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrW_6sM8qTQ
Thanks
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rikkisbears on March 03, 2023, 07:42:33 AM
Riki and Jeff.
The Event does not have a Multiband (for now). However, there is a possibility for something very powerful, but this is not of the present. However what you heard (with the saxophone) was just an Audio Real chord which normally accompanies our chords as if they were midi chords.
This is the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaAwJCnEeLg
By the way, because it's always been heard that Ketron only has Audio styles and although I've said that she's also very good in midi, listen to a 100% midi style from the Event.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrW_6sM8qTQ
Thanks

Hi Sokratis,
I have no idea what multi band is.
That sax clip is what I was referring too .
That midi styles sounds great, takes me back. Haha,  (showing my age ) . Talented performer.

Thanks Sokratis
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on March 03, 2023, 09:21:10 AM
Hi Sokratis,
I have no idea what multi band is.
That sax clip is what I was referring too .
That midi styles sounds great, takes me back. Haha,  (showing my age ) . Talented performer.

Thanks Sokratis
hahahahah Sorry.. This was the (keyboard demon) Multipad I meant. ;D :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 03, 2023, 10:16:12 AM
Hi :

3 new high end arrangers in 2023/24 : ( 1 ) Event, Ketron, ( 2 ) PA5X, Korg and later on this year ( 3 ) a Yamaha Genos' successor ...

What is the best choice ? : # 1,# 2 or # 3 ( = we do not know yet ).
I absolutely cannot answer that question ... only the individual customer is the real decision maker.  ;D

IMHO most ( all ? ) Yamaha endusers will wait for Yamaha's new high end arranger before they are deciding which keyboard suits them best.
It is hard to believe ( for me ) many Yamaha customers will go for a competitor's keyboard though  8) ... 

Or ... might the future Ketron's Event Module Workstation ( available in 2023 ? ) be an additional choice for ( some ) Yamaha customers ?

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on March 04, 2023, 10:17:45 AM
Hi :

3 new high end arrangers in 2023/24 : ( 1 ) Event, Ketron, ( 2 ) PA5X, Korg and later on this year ( 3 ) a Yamaha Genos' successor ...

What is the best choice ? : # 1,# 2 or # 3 ( = we do not know yet ).
I absolutely cannot answer that question ... only the individual customer is the real decision maker.  ;D


Hello Jeff,

If the Genos successor will be this year and it will be all three of those as you say, then customers will really be spoilt for choice, I think you cannot go wrong with any of those three although of course we don't know what the next Yamaha will contain but one can only imagine it's going to be quite incredible.

Do you think Yamaha would introduce Audio Drums again? I know they removed them for this current generation, but if I am not mistaken I've seen people on the Korg forums call on Korg to add audio drums in their keyboards. I think Yamaha could implement this, reserve a small section just for Audio styles, say bank of 100.

For example, on the Pa5x Korg added an extra style bank called Classic Pop, although they are not audio, they are strictly based on famous songs only which I thought was quite a neat idea. Yamaha could do that with Audio styles perhaps. I do like them on my T5 and S975 although they could have chosen a better bunch of their midi styles to implement the audio drums in. I am really curious for what the next Yamaha will be, may not even be called Genos either due to the length of time the Genos has been around because I think if Yamaha carried on the Tyros trajectory we'd be on Genos3 by now.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 04, 2023, 01:31:01 PM
Hey Danny :

I do not believe Yamaha will add Audio Drums ( again ) ... but who am I ? ;)

Plse keep in mind those Yamaha Audio Styles could not be extracted in the past and that was an issue for some of us, I guess.
IMHO it is possible the Genos' Revo drums might come back in the Genos' successor.

I personally prefer midi styles ... I hope a lot of new midi styles will be added in the new high end arranger. I think most people would be very happy. 
BUT ... only time will tell.  :D


Take care, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rikkisbears on March 04, 2023, 08:44:19 PM
but if I am not mistaken I've seen people on the Korg forums call on Korg to add audio drums in their keyboards.

Hi Danny are you sure it’s audio drums? not something like revo drums, but  you could be reading different parts of forum to me. 😀 Korgs  have samplers and owners can use drum/percussion audio loops . Also the option of time slicing. Something I experimented with years ago on my pa800, it was amazing that one could manipulate an audio drum pattern via midi notes.
Never checked  to see what can be done  with Yem other than load all those free paks😀 not as inquisitive as I used be.☺️
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rikkisbears on March 04, 2023, 08:56:54 PM


I personally prefer midi styles ... I hope a lot of new midi styles will be added in the new high end arranger. I think most people would be very happy. 
BUT ... only time will tell.  :D

Take care, JH

Basically so do I. If a pattern in a style track isn’t quite what you want, change a few notes. Guitar mode has made guitar tracks sound so more realistic. Drums now sound pretty good too.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on March 05, 2023, 02:15:47 PM
Hi Danny are you sure it’s audio drums? not something like revo drums,

Hi Rikki,

I am pretty sure I read the comments after the Pa5x was released from some forum members who were disappointed with the Pa5x compared to the Pa4x, this is also with the knowledge that Korg had implemented the "Revo" drums system called Round Robin, but I guess users were still not happy! I think the Pa5x drums already sound great as they are to me.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 05, 2023, 09:56:08 PM
Hello Sokratis :

Will the Event Module be available in 2023/2024 ?
Thanks for your reply.
Best wishes, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rikkisbears on March 05, 2023, 10:44:07 PM
Hi Rikki,

I am pretty sure I read the comments after the Pa5x was released from some forum members who were disappointed with the Pa5x compared to the Pa4x, this is also with the knowledge that Korg had implemented the "Revo" drums system called Round Robin, but I guess users were still not happy! I think the Pa5x drums already sound great as they are to me.
Hi Danny, didn’t spot the bit on the drums. A number are upset that some of the Pa4x  functions haven’t been implemented (YET) on PA5x, new operating systems take time I suppose. They have quite a few scheduled for next update may/June. Looking forward to getting a number of the style editing functions back onboard, most of my style editing was done in xgworks, so hasn’t affected me personally, either way.😀
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on March 06, 2023, 05:29:54 AM
Hello Sokratis :

Will the Event Module be available in 2023/2024 ?
Thanks for your reply.
Best wishes, JH
Hello Jeff. I'm not entirely sure but I think towards the end of 2023.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 06, 2023, 08:01:21 AM
Most of my style editing was done in xgworks.

Hi Rikki :

Do you use XGW for your Korg too ? 
It might be possible if you made a separate PA Voice list in XGW.
Did you ? ... Or do you use XGW for the SX900 only ?
IMHO there is not an SX900 available, right ?

Best wishes, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rikkisbears on March 06, 2023, 11:15:49 AM
Hi Rikki :

Do you use XGW for your Korg too ? 
It might be possible if you made a separate PA Voice list in XGW.
Did you ? ... Or do you use XGW for the SX900 only ?
IMHO there is not an SX900 available, right ?

Best wishes, JH

Hi Jeff, I only use it for style editing, but yes,I use it for PA5x and sx900. I don’t really need a voice list, when the PA5x styles are exported as .mid files, the bank & program changes are in the midi file. I don’t change voices in xgworks, I only use it for note editing . Also I used to use it for converting psr styles across to Korg.
It just works so well for what I need to do. I don’t need all the audio options that the new daws offer, just gets in the way.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on March 07, 2023, 09:12:16 AM
Not sure if it has been mentioned already, but Bonners are stocking and advertising the Event !!!

https://www.bonnersmusic.co.uk/products/ketron-event-arranger-keyboard

This is a surprise to me as I am pretty sure no main UK dealers were stocking any Ketron keyboards in the past. When I bought my SD7 and SD60 they were ordered from Ketron Italy.

This is a very interesting move, I wonder if more of the main UK dealers will stock them as well.

It would be incredible if Tony of Bonners did a full demo of it, I think it could get me curious.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Bill on March 07, 2023, 09:24:09 AM
DV247 are also stocking the Event

https://www.dv247.com/en_GB/GBP/Ketron-EVENT/art-KEY0005700-000

Bill
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: kiplis on March 07, 2023, 10:21:53 AM
It would be incredible if Tony of Bonners did a full demo of it, I think it could get me curious.

True, if Tony does a demo and evaluates the Event, it could be really important, both ways....
I think Yamaha is a bit arrogant towards us old customers because they don't want to give any additional information about the future plans.
At least I always want to get to know the preliminary information and features, before I purchase anything.

-Kiplis-
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on March 07, 2023, 01:00:33 PM
New video about Event was just published:
AjamSonic: Event Q&A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dULXT00bnJM)

I find it quite informative. As I always say, it's not about which keyboard is the best in the world -it's about which is the best for you.

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on March 07, 2023, 03:06:33 PM
True, if Tony does a demo and evaluates the Event, it could be really important, both ways....

Yes he's an exceptional player and would make anything sound fantastic. It would be good if he did because you could then compare his previous two demos of the Pa5x and Genos for a really fair and balanced comparison.

I saw a demo of the Event on facebook yesterday played by the popular Bartlomiej playing and singing to a Rick Astley "Whenever You Need Somebody", and I was blown away by it to be fair.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on March 07, 2023, 03:55:29 PM
Good video, Bogdan.

From what I see, the Event user interface is overly complicated. It relies heavily on the touch screen, which has a lot of content almost to the point of being visually "noisy." It may work for home players who have the luxury of time but despite his comments about the programmable buttons on the bottom, it appears clumsy and awkward for the live stage.

Even for home players, navigating their way through endless screens would become tiresome. Home player goals are identical to those of live stage players, and that's to play music, not be computer geeks. The Genos is more intuitive and better organized.

I didn't watch the whole video but I'd be concerned about the lack of Registration buttons, unless they're somewhere else. I didn't see any 👎.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on March 07, 2023, 04:54:41 PM
...
I didn't watch the whole video but I'd be concerned about the lack of Registration buttons, unless they're somewhere else. I didn't see any 👎.
-you didn't watch whole video (the talk about registrations) and so it's kinda unfair to give thumb down.

I totally understand that not everyone might like Event.. same can be said for Korg or Yamaha -it's just great that we have choices.

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on March 07, 2023, 05:12:38 PM
Just a caution: Be careful with these demos, and always try yourself if you can.

Tony from Bonners' demo was the only reason why I ended up buying the Pa5X.
In reality I couldn't make it sound anything like the demo.
I'm not as an advanced player of course, but it still disappointed me compared to the Genos which just seemed to sound better out of the box for several reasons.
Especially solo instruments like saxes (often used in the arranger world). The Genos has lots of articulation in tonnes of instruments that work on many dynamics. The Korg seemed completely flat to me in many departments (acoustic guitars, saxes and woodwind, brass). Just strange in comparison and not impressive for the price, more comparable to legacy/XG sounds in the Genos. (in my opinion, it is subjective of course). I reckon a Tyros 4 or 5 would be better for me even if I'm being honest. We are talking 10 year old Yamaha keyboards.


This is what worries me with the Event. Great styles that the keyboard can start and end with since they are live and extremely impressive in demos, but in reality you will struggle with the menu system and solo instruments may not impress thus making the keyboard long term nowhere as good as a Yamaha.


I'm even reminded of Tony's demo of comparing the Roland RD2000 to a Nord Piano 4. The RD2000 seemed to win that one in that demo to my ears, but general consensus is Nord always has better samples than almost any other company. Again I bought the RD2000 based on that. Also disappointing in reality (to me) for various reasons. The base piano just didn't seem to sing as well as in that demo and seemed to fade away in any music I recorded with it. I constantly switched to an old sample the RD700NX or whatever. It just seemed weird. The CFX in the Genos is much brighter and cuts through mixes much better to the point I keep telling myself I should try other instruments and stop messing around with the CFX only, that was never the case on the Roland. In fact as far as I remember I preferred the Nord Piano 2 I briefly owned a while before the Roland. Easier to use and to get different sounds out of, and of course holds its value much better if you do want to ever sell it on.

However they record some of these demos: possibly changing EQ, compression, mastering, perhaps even the expert playing or whatever sometimes appears to paint a different picture to reality.


I guess what I'm trying to get at is don't JUST be sold by the sound in a demo. There are other factors to consider and especially think about how it will actually sound when YOU are playing the keyboard.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on March 07, 2023, 10:28:47 PM
-you didn't watch whole video (the talk about registrations) and so it's kinda unfair to give thumb down.

I totally understand that not everyone might like Event.. same can be said for Korg or Yamaha -it's just great that we have choices.

Bogdan
Agreed, Bogdan. Actually, I finished watching the video. You can create registrations but only through the screen and in a somewhat convoluted manner, unless I missed something. The Event still looks like a "computer first and musical instrument after." That doesn't work for the serious stage player. We need access to key functions through dedicated buttons, not touch screen options and menus. We simply do not have the time to do these things any other way.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on March 08, 2023, 11:40:39 AM
New video about Event was just published:
AjamSonic: Event Q&A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dULXT00bnJM)

I find it quite informative. As I always say, it's not about which keyboard is the best in the world -it's about which is the best for you.

Bogdan

Hi Bogdan,

Thank you for sharing this, watched it all the way and very informative as you say. I really like the OS, it's very similar to my SD60 which I find easy and intuitive to use so I'm glad to see that the system is retained in the Event also.

The questions that I would have asked were not included so I wrote them in the comments of the video in the hope I get some replies, based on the replies I may take a serious look at this keyboard.

All the best,
Danny
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 08, 2023, 11:55:42 AM
Hi Guys :

I am missing the multipads in the Event.
I am aware of the Event's solo parts but it is a completely different feature than multipads.

According to Sokratis the multipad section might come later in the Event ( if I am not wrong !!! ) but I really wonder how Ketron will fix that though ... not possible, IMO.
Maybe I misunderstood Sokratis' words ... if so plse forgive me ...
When I am wrong Sokratis will surely correct me. ;)

Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: musicteach on March 08, 2023, 12:41:54 PM
I am a big Yamaha fan, and own quite a few Yamaha instruments, but I would buy whatever keyboard I thought was superior (and that I could afford).  And I feel for these companies who are trying to compete.  Yamaha sells far more units, they have massive manufacturing plants, R&D departments, artist input, dealer network, and an impressive company culture.  How do these smaller makers compete?  I imagine the only way they can grab some market share is to innovate something new.  And it seems like they are doing that with these audio backing tracks.  As a band in the box user I am skeptical of the more audio based styles (I believe this is what the BIAB real styles are).  Somehow these styles don't sound as great over a PA system.  MIDI and samples has some downsides, but this is a proven and effective technology. 

A couple years ago I had a visit from a Yamaha rep from Japan.  He came to see our school because we buy a lot of Yamaha stuff.  He was so knowledgeable, helpful, and obviously dedicated to the company.  It really left me impressed with the company.  But, like most musicians, I'll buy whatever instrument is best for me.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on March 08, 2023, 01:01:12 PM
hi Danny

...I really like the OS, it's very similar to my SD60 which I find easy and intuitive to use so I'm glad to see that the system is retained in the Event also.
...
-now that is interesting that you say that. Ant that actually proves, that it's hard to "judge" things without trying them for at least few days. As you noticed, we tend to criticize every OS if it doesn't look like on Yamaha.. and if it does, then we say "eh, is a Yamaha copy". On the other hand, when I bough my first Yamaha, it also wasn't everything that obvious to me -means, certain time is needed to understand the idea behind.

My opinion about Event user interface is mixed... but one is for sure, it would help immensely, if it would have more graphical elements: icons, different sections coloring/shading, etc. Now it looks quite monotone and confusing -one can easy get lost in various options.

Same as musicteach above (posted while I'm typing), I try to be open minded and ready to recognize competition's advantages (by not denying them). It can be, that Event is not "my kind" of keyboard, but that doesn't decrease it's value.

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on March 08, 2023, 01:23:52 PM

My opinion about Event user interface is mixed... but one is for sure, it would help immensely, if it would have more graphical elements: icons, different sections coloring/shading, etc. Now it looks quite monotone and confusing -one can easy get lost in various options.

Bogdan

I am pretty sure that there was an option to change the display background, colours and fonts on the SD60 but I didn't mind the defaults but I will try it later.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying the OS on the Ketron's are perfect at all and I still think the Yamaha's are easier, but I would say that as I have been using Yamaha all my life and I have never found it confusing whereas I can't say that for both Korg and Ketron up until recently really. I didn't like the OS of the Solton X1 and then the Audya and found them both confusing but I think it really changed for the better when Ketron introduced the touch screen, from the SD7 onwards I think. And as for Korg, the OS had me confused and was a nightmare (still is) on my Korg i30, only slightly better on the Pa80/Pa1x/Pa2x but it started to really improve from the Pa3x generation and now with the Pa5x is radically different from previous Korgs and closer to Yamaha which suits me fine.

Other OS system that I liked using was GEM, I still have my WK8 Megastation and the OS is very simple, I also still have a KN7000 and I must admit I find the OS confusing, as I do with the Roland Ea7.

So it really is about what you're used to because I know may people really praised how easy OS of the Technics was where I struggle with it.

I still find the Yamaha's the easiest to use overall though.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 08, 2023, 03:59:45 PM
IMHO it is not easy to go for another brand when a player is used to work with Yamaha arranger(s) for a longer period of time.

We all are so familiar with these Yamaha arrangers and know all their pros and cons so well after all these years.

The Event seems to be a very interesting competitor.

I honestly believe the Event could become a popular instrument but it will be very hard for Ketron to convince Yamaha customers to change their mind.

Best wishes, JH





Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on March 08, 2023, 04:33:06 PM
but it will be very hard for Ketron to convince Yamaha customers to change their mind.

Best wishes, JH

I think that would be a mistake. The only person who needs to be convinced is oneself if you want to change altogether, but personally I don't think it always works because you'll always end up missing something you were used to. The only way it could work would be if one owned multiple keyboards so that it covers all bases but people may not want to do that either. The reality is that there isn't an arranger keyboard that will cover everything perfectly and it will be down to the one that suits you the most and live with the limitations you may think it has.

I would go as far as to say that it is very unlikely (if at all) that any person on this forum would switch from Yamaha to Ketron without having any Yamaha to fall back on. I couldn't do it anyway, there are things on the Genos/SX900 that I couldn't do without.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 08, 2023, 05:37:18 PM
Hey Danny :

I really understand what you are saying.

In general most people ( I know ) have one keyboard only ( for many reasons  ).
All of them are Yamaha owners and were Roland and/or Technics players before.
For many reasons they are happy with their Yammi and they are
very interested in the new 2 high end arrangers of Ketron and Korg.
BTW, who is not interested in the newest arrangers ? ;)

They all say they want to know Yamaha's answer first and finally will go for a Yamaha, I guess, if there is a need for a new arranger.

JH






 
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: pjd on March 08, 2023, 07:10:17 PM
But, like most musicians, I'll buy whatever instrument is best for me.

Amen! And I will stick with that instrument until it's "used up."

Love the one you're with -- pj    :D
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on March 09, 2023, 07:01:35 AM
Agreed, Bogdan. Actually, I finished watching the video. You can create registrations but only through the screen and in a somewhat convoluted manner, unless I missed something. The Event still looks like a "computer first and musical instrument after." That doesn't work for the serious stage player. We need access to key functions through dedicated buttons, not touch screen options and menus. We simply do not have the time to do these things any other way.
It strikes me that you talk about the lack of Event switches when many of you (like me) have Genos.
On what you wrote "That doesn't work for the serious stage player" I would like to speak to you as a Stage Player.
As I have said many times, I am a professional musician and have made a living solely from this work (music in live performances) since 1990.
That is, about 33 years, so since you bring up the subject (Stage Player) I will speak to you clearly from this side.
So, I work almost every day with Genos (in hotels and in various live performances) because I haven't had time to prepare the Event for my work yet.
So, I have worked since 2018 when I bought Genos thousands of hours on stage (as a Stage Player) so I know very well both the positives and the negatives.
So really, how can you talk about a lack of switches and excessive use of the screen in the Event when the Yamaha in the Genos does not have basic switches and also in the Genos we are forced to work too much or even more exclusively from the screen?
Shall we compare them? Because I see some myths being created around the subject.
So, we're going to play a question and answer game and I'm just going to put in real facts.

1. Styles & Voices switches.
Question: Does Genos have switches for Styles and Voices? Answer: No. Basically there are two Style and Voice switches, but the only thing the Style switch does is just open the list of styles, but selection is done exclusively, either from the screen or from the wheel, and the Voice switch only does presents us with the content with the settings of the selected sound. Nothing else.
So, in both cases the work is done exclusively from the screen.
Here, too, a particularly negative point must be noted: There are no folders in Genos User in categories such as Presets, nor in Styles, nor in Voice. The only solution is for the user to create them and of course there is no corresponding User switch.
Hmmm a lot of screen work.
Let's compare now: Question: Does Event have switches for Styles and Voice? Answer Yes, and in fact there is a separate switch for User Voice as well as there is a separate switch for User Style.
Of course, there are ready User folders with all the categories just like there are in the Presets. On the other hand, although there is a series of switches for both uses, however when we select PRESET STYLES, or PRESET VOICE, what we need to do is simply press once on the screen and select either from the left side the list of Styles , or from the right side the list of Voices, in which case the appropriate list is automatically activated on the switches, having at the same time the option to either choose a category, or by repeatedly pressing the switches, the pages of the lists are changed.

2. Fills & Breaks
Question: Does Genos have Fill switches?
Answer: No. Fills are ONLY activated by the Variation switches and only the current Fill is activated. And if I want to play for example Variation 2 but activate Fill 4 is that possible? No. Is there any alternative way to do this? No.
Question: Does Event have Fill switches? Answer: Yes. It has a Fill switch which activates the current Fill. Is there any alternative way to do this? Yes, two ways:
A) Simply by selecting the permanent icon from the right side of the screen called FILL & BREAK and immediately appear at the bottom of the screen (in icons and without blocking the rest of the screen) both the 4 Fill and the 4 Break. https://app.box.com/s/ywwltf07sp2g87xnebha58im0vgp60v0
B) By enabling AUTOFILL, it works the same way as Genos. That is, by pressing the corresponding Variation, the corresponding Fill is also activated.
So, the answer is Yes! In Event it is possible to choose a different Fill and a different Break than what we are playing, as well as having two different alternative selection modes.

3. Registration & Playlist.
Question: Does Genos have Registration switches? Answer: Yes. It has 10 different switches and two additional +- REGIST switches. BANK.
Question: When I have a full Live program that requires a lot of quick selection of Styles, Voices and many other options what can I do on a Yamaha Genos? Answer: We should create Registration Banks which will be stored in Playlists. Nice. Question: How many Playlists can I have at my disposal at a time: Answer: One. If we want a second Playlist, then we have to select it (from the screen of course) and load it. Very nice. Question: In the Playlist, what else can I save besides Registration? Answer: Nothing. Registration Bank only.
Question: How do we enter Playlist mode? Answer: From the Playlist switch. And the Registration options? After selecting the Playlist, we want to load, then the Registration Banks are selected from the 10 Registration switches.
Nice. Question: If I don't remember what each Registration Bank contains (it's impossible to remember them all) what alternative and quick solution do I have? The fastest solution is to assign to an ASSIGNABLE switch the "Regist. Bank Information" so during work when we don't remember something we should press the corresponding switch so that all the useful information appears on the screen.
Question: Does Event have Registration switches? Answer: No. It has 1 Registration switch where it enters the list of all Single Registrations.
Question: When I have a busy schedule that requires a lot of quick selections from Styles, Voices and many other options what can I do in a Ketron Event? Answer: We should create Performance Bank. What is this; It is a new Ketron platform (corresponding to the Genos Playlist) in which we can create and organize our Registrations with great ease thus creating our programs and having at our disposal 18 different large virtual Pads (versus 10 switches of Genos) on each page and of course having an unlimited number of files per Performance Bank. Nice. Question: How many Performance Banks can I have at my disposal at a time? Answer: Seven different Performance Banks. If we want to load another 7 different Performance Banks, what do we do? We load them directly from the disc since there is a direct load command (from the screen of course). Very nice. Question: In the Performance Bank what else can I save besides Registration? Answer: Both Styles and Voice.
Question: How do we enter Performance mode? Answer: From the Performance switch. The rest is done by the screen.
Nice. Question: If I don't remember what each Performance Bank contains what is my quick and alternative solution? Answer: There is no problem at all because the virtual Pads are very large and each Pad has the file name very clearly, as well as specifying whether it is Registration, Style, or Voice.
https://app.box.com/s/vg944hhyt74rzm572yaklczdex1tihlh

4. Sliders and Real Time control.
Question: If in Genos I want to control the general volume in Drums, Bass, Chord separately during the Live, is this possible? Answer: As a general tension no. What we can do is press SLIDER ASSING to toggle the Sliders mode and from there we have a Slider for each channel of the Style.
Question: If I turn one of the channels down or up while playing, will that have any effect on the balance of the Style? Answer: Yes, because the balance is also broken in the other parts of the Style, i.e., the changes we make in any channel will have an impact on all parts of the Style (variation Fill, Break, etc.).
Does this also apply to FX (Chorus, Reverb)? Yes. It will affect all parts of the Style.
Question: So, we can't have separate settings for Volume, Reverb, Chorus, Pan, etc.? Answer: Yes, it is possible, but this must be done exclusively through the Style Creator whenever this cannot be achieved during the live.
And although we of course can change something at the moment we are playing, but if we make even the slightest change in the mix of the style or any other change, then all parts of the Style are affected.
Question: Can we have a separate setting of the Insert FX in each Variation? Answer: No.
Question: If we want to lower the moment of Live, for example the Bass in all Styles, because there is a chance that we are playing in a venue with bad acoustics, so it bothers us, is this possible? Answer: No. At each Style change, the volume will return to the original mix. Question: And if we assign, for example, the Bass to a Live Control Slider? Answer: But it will work again after changing the Style the volume will return to the levels of the original mix.
Question: If at the Event I want to control the general volume in Drums, Bass, Chord separately during the Live, is this possible? Answer: Yes. We lower the general volume with separate Sliders in DRUMS/PERC, BASS, MIDI CHORDS, REAL CHORDS.
Question: If I raise or lower one of the Style channels while playing, will it affect the balance of the Style? Answer: No unless we want to. That is, if we choose Single, then any changes we make (now we play) will only affect the specific Variation, Fill, etc., while if we choose Global, then all the changes we make will affect the entire Style. The same is true for the Master FX (Reverb Chorus).
Question: Can we have a separate setting of the Insert FX in each Variation? Answer: Yes. We can have completely different setup of Insert FX in each Variation, Intro, Ending.

5. Midi Drum Mixer.
Question: Is there a Drum Mixer in Genos? Answer: Real Time control no. Only through Style Creator.
Question: So, when I'm playing in a live if it bothers me, for example the Kick, I can't turn it down while I'm playing? Answer: No.
Question: Is there a Drum Mixer at the Event? Answer: Yes. There is a separate Drum Mixer switch where we have Real Time control over: Volume, Reverb, Pan, Pitch, Velocity Compressor.
Question: So, when I'm playing live, if I'm bothered by eg the Kick, Snare, can I turn it down or raise it while I'm playing? Answer: Yes, and we can have Real Time control of each Variation completely different without affecting the mix balance of the Style in the slightest.

6. Question: If in Genos in a Live we want to play Full Pianist sound, is it possible? If so, how?
Answer: It is done if we do the following:
A) Disable the ACMP switch.
B) Deactivating the LEFT HOLD switch
C) Deactivating the LEFT switch.
Question: If we want to play Full Pianist sound at the Event in a Live, is it possible? If so, how?
Answer: It is done if we press the switch: PIANIST.

7. Question: If in Genos in a Live we want to play Manual Bass in the left hand, is it possible?
Answer: No. Or at least not in a direct way.
Question: If at the Event in a Live we want to play Manual Bass in the left hand, is it possible?
Answer: Yes, directly by simply pressing the MANUAL BASS switch. And not only that, but we can select normal chords, but the moment we want a Manual Bass to be activated (without affecting the chords) simply by having previously selected the AUTOMANUAL mode (from the screen).

8. Question: How many Voice sections (in our right hand) does the Yamaha Genos have?
Answer: A section where we can have up to three UPPER VOICES (RIGHT 1, RIGHT 2, RIGHT 3).
Question: How many LOWER (LEFT) VOICES can we have in our left hand? Answer: A Left Voice.
Question: How many Voice parts (in our right hand) does the Event have?
Answer: Two separate Voice sections where we can have up to three UPPER VOICEs each section (although here there is a somewhat different structure, but the explanation is not here).
Question: How many LOWER (LEFT) VOICES can we have in the Event in our left hand? Answer: Three different Left (LOWER) Voices with a separate Slider each.

9. Question: Are there ONE TOUCH SETTING switches on the Yamaha Genos? Answer: Yes, and I think they are also in a better position than any other Arranger.
Question: Are there ONE TOUCH SETTING switches in the Event? Answer: No. This feature is only available from the screen. It has two different modes though here I have to say that I like Genos' mode much better.

10.
Question: If in Genos we want to have direct access to a Live some of our favorite User or Preset Styles or Voices is it possible? Answer: Yes, it is possible if we save them in Favorites. Question: In Favorites we have the possibility to have Voices or Styles per category (Piano, Strings, Organ - Pop, Rock, Latin etc.). Answer: No. Question: Is there any other alternative way? Answer: Yes, there are two ways: A) By creating user folders where we will place the sounds or styles by category and of course the selection is made exclusively from the screen.
B) Via Registration but when we are constantly forced to change Registration Bank in a Live, then things get very complicated, and it is far from direct.
Question: If at the Event we want to have direct access to a Live some of our favorite User or Preset Styles or Voices, is it possible? Answer: Yes, we just store them in the appropriate User folder, and of course in both cases the selection can also be made from the switches. Question: Is there any other alternative way? Answer: Yes, through Performance. We select any of the seven immediately available banks and copy what we want to each one.
For example, in Performance Bank 3 I can have all my favorite Styles, (Preset or User), while in Performance Bank 4 I can have all my favorite Voices (Preset or User).



And finally, some quick questions and answers.
1) Is there a switch for DRAWBAR ORGAN on Genos?
No.
Is there a switch for DRAWBAR ORGAN in Event?
Yes. And independent switch and Slider and works Real Time in parallel or separately with the two sections of Voices.
2) Is there a DRUMS KIT switch on the Genos?
No, the Drum kit selection is made exclusively from the screen, after first deactivating the switches: ACMP, LEFT HOLD, LEFT
Is there a DRUMS KIT switch in Event?
Yes. You press the switch and directly the Drum Kit is available on the entire keyboard.
3) Is there an independent SPLIT switch on the Genos?
No. The settings are made exclusively through the screen and are not particularly clear.
Is there an independent SPLIT switch in Event?
Yes. We simply press and hold the Split switch and then the current range appears on the screen (e.g. C2), so we just press any note on the keyboard, so the screen automatically shows us which note we have selected, so we have immediately changed the range relationship between the right and left-handed.
4) Is there a DIRECT ACCESS switch on Genos?
Yes. It's one of the smartest implementations I've come across in recent years.
Is there a DIRECT ACCESS switch in the Event?
No. Unfortunately, no.
But I must stop somewhere here.
I must have tired you, but there are a few things that need to be cleared up.
I too believe there is no (best arranger keyboard), but there is (best arranger keyboard for me).
As you may have noticed all I have done is simply refer to true facts and nothing else.
Also, I'll say it again: Event doesn't only have Audio styles, it also has many Midi Styles which actually play very well.
Of course, the focus has been on Audio Styles, but at the same time it has all those tools that are required, and certainly much more options than even all the Yamaha Arrangers when it comes to Midi Styles production. I typically mention the production of separate Maj, Min versions in Intro, Ending, Variation either directly on the instrument or through some daw using Marker which is almost impossible on any Yamaha.
Finally, I have to say the following:
The Yamaha Genos is my first (professional) Yamaha Arranger I've ever owned. I have worked (live) with models from all companies: Korg i5, i30, Pa80, Pa1x, Pa800, Pa3x, Roland E-35, EA7, G-70, Ketron SD1, Audya.
I never said Genos is a bad instrument.
If it was, I would just sell it and not play live with it yet. It's an AWESOME Arranger, but what I've found is this:
As a Stage Player which is my job, I find that if we haven't prepared our Genos in advance, to an absolute extent, and if we haven't foreseen even the last detail for a live, then it is very difficult in live conditions and also very unwieldy when you have to switch frequently in a demanding schedule. Why.
Because contrary to what you said, many things are missing which would help us in the immediacy of a Live.
I understood that I must have saved my entire program in Registration and Playlist because otherwise it is particularly difficult to access (real time) in Live conditions.
I know many of you may disagree with me. But look at what I wrote to you and those of you whose main job is music (Stage Player) then consider whether what I say corresponds to reality or not.
I apologize for my huge post and possibly for my bad English.
Thank you!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on March 09, 2023, 08:25:01 AM
Dear @Sokratis: It is not easy to discuss another brand on a Yamaha forum. But the way you do that deserves respect. As always as independent as possible and based on facts. Thank you for your detailed explanation.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 09, 2023, 09:52:20 AM
Hi Guys :

Thanks to Sokratis' great and detailed feedback, it is hard to deny the Event seems to be a great high end arranger, do you agree ?
Probably a very challenging competitor for Korg's PA5X and Yamaha's Genos successor, right ?

As soon as the Event is available in the music shops ( expected stock April 2023 ? ), my dealer will invite me.
It is absolutely my serious intention to test the Event thoroughly.
The more I know about the Event the more excited I am.
But again ... I am going to miss multipads ...

I am supposed to replace my Tyros4 by the end of this year, early 2024 but it is not easy for me to say goodbye to my beloved Tyros4. I am still in doubt.
A great arranger to create my backing tracks though.

Sorry, but I am an old fashioned musician : generally speaking, all my music instruments are meant to keep as long as possible, despite all the new software and technical improvements.
E.g. my left handed guitars are retained for life.   
On the other hand, my apartment is too small to add another arranger. I have to sell my Ty4 if I really want to replace it.  :P 

BTW, I really admire and appreciate Sokratis' endless patience to take time to answer all our questions and to respond respectfully and friendly to our criticism.


Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: billtracy on March 09, 2023, 03:40:03 PM
So, we're going to play a question and answer game and I'm just going to put in real facts.

Good writeup thanks.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 10, 2023, 10:13:24 AM

Hi :

Apparently some European dealers ( in Germany e.g. ) received a showroom Event arranger.
It would be interesting to know the endusers' first impressions, IMO.  :)

My dealer ( The Netherlands ) cannot confirm if he will receive his first Event shipment in April 2023.
Nothing has been ( officially ) announced by Ketron yet, he said. 

Regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: kiplis on March 10, 2023, 11:15:57 AM
https://www.thomann.de/gb/ketron_event.htm?shp=eyJjb3VudHJ5IjoiZ2IiLCJjdXJyZW5jeSI6NCwibGFuZ3VhZ2UiOjJ9&reload=1

-Kiplis-
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mikf on March 10, 2023, 03:07:17 PM
Jeff
The difference in feel, sound of instruments like guitars, violins, saxes, are typically contained in the design and construction.  So people tend to keep several, even collect them. The difference in electronic keyboards is mainly advance and improvement in the technology. So like cars, we typically get rid of the old one when getting a new one.
Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: kiplis on March 14, 2023, 11:04:29 AM
In stock @ Bonners

https://www.bonnersmusic.co.uk/products/ketron-event-arranger-keyboard

-Kiplis-
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 14, 2023, 11:17:58 AM
Apparently the UK dealers are the first people who have received their Event's March 2023 shipment.

I am looking forward to reading the endusers' impressions. ;)
JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: tyrosrick on March 14, 2023, 12:23:08 PM
The price at Bonners is about the same as a Genos, so pricewise what is the advantage of this over a Yamaha?
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on March 14, 2023, 01:40:48 PM
The price at Bonners is about the same as a Genos, so pricewise what is the advantage of this over a Yamaha?

I think that's something everyone should answer for himself. Genos, Event and Pa5X are all top of the line keyboards and there's no worse or better: it's what suits you better.

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 14, 2023, 01:56:52 PM
The price at Bonners is about the same as a Genos, so pricewise what is the advantage of this over a Yamaha?

Most Yamaha customers ( 99% ? ) prefer to wait for the Genos' successor, I guess.
It might be available in November/December 2023, I hope.
I assume the new Yamaha high end arranger would cost : present Genos' price + approx. 10% ? 

I have no idea ... only time will tell.  ;)

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on March 14, 2023, 02:08:44 PM
I won't be able to assess the Event, due to lack of dealers in Canada. An online dealer is totally useless, unless he or she is willing to pay all expenses to send and return an Event to my home for assessment. That is highly unlikely. The PA5X will likely be in our stores.

No matter what, I'll wait to see what Yamaha brings to the table as an answer to these two fine machines :).
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 14, 2023, 04:13:15 PM
Hi Lee :

You are a professional musician.
Making music is your daily income. 
The service ( 24/7 ) given by your dealer is very important for you.

Buying on line might be no option for you, IMHO.

Best regards, JH

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on March 14, 2023, 04:50:01 PM
The price at Bonners is about the same as a Genos, so pricewise what is the advantage of this over a Yamaha?

I'm willing to bet not much.

But some people will be impressed by the demos and live sounding music, there is no denying.
In many living rooms / side rooms I bet these things gather dust despite which model people buy, even a Genos.

The lack of direct controls I think is a huge problem for the average performer who is going to be more consistent in his/her playing.

What you don't know won't hurt/harm you. If you haven't had a Genos or top of the range SX keyboard, it will be fine probably.

If you are experienced with Yamaha's using the direct style controls, registration buttons and like expansion options, the Event and even Pa5X is going to be a step back I would have thought.
At least this seemed to be my experience anyway.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on March 16, 2023, 04:58:04 PM
I have purchased an Event and it's arriving Monday :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: kiplis on March 16, 2023, 05:30:18 PM
Nice, I am considering the same...

-Kiplis-
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on March 16, 2023, 06:58:28 PM
I have purchased an Event and it's arriving Monday :)
Congrats Danny! So far I'm quite impressed by Event and I really hope it won't disappoint you  :)

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 16, 2023, 06:59:53 PM
Hey Danny :

CONGRATULATIONS with your New Event.  :)

I would be very happy and grateful if you let this Forum know, in a couple of weeks e.g., what your first impressions are. ;)
Thank you in advance and ... enjoy your new arranger !

JH

 
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on March 16, 2023, 07:25:52 PM
Thank you Guys, appreciate the warm comments :)

Yes of course I will give feedback on the keyboard. I will stress that this is not replacing my Genos or any of the other current TOTL's that I have although I will offload some of my older keyboards to make up for it.

I think the fact that Bonners are stocking it was what tipped it in it's favour because I initially had no intention of getting one as traditionally the Ketron's have always been hard to get hold of in the UK, eg, when I bought the SD7 and SD60 I had to wait many weeks before it arrived in the UK from Italy as the only way to get one was from the Ketron UK distributor. So its refreshing that I can order a Ketron to arrive a couple of days later, that's more like it! I think it would pair up very well with the Genos.



 

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on March 16, 2023, 11:41:15 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkCy6k0Sx3M
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rikkisbears on March 17, 2023, 12:57:17 AM
Congratulations Danny I’m sure you’ll love it
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on March 17, 2023, 06:28:24 AM
Thank you Guys, appreciate the warm comments :)

Yes of course I will give feedback on the keyboard. I will stress that this is not replacing my Genos or any of the other current TOTL's that I have although I will offload some of my older keyboards to make up for it.

I think the fact that Bonners are stocking it was what tipped it in it's favour because I initially had no intention of getting one as traditionally the Ketron's have always been hard to get hold of in the UK, eg, when I bought the SD7 and SD60 I had to wait many weeks before it arrived in the UK from Italy as the only way to get one was from the Ketron UK distributor. So its refreshing that I can order a Ketron to arrive a couple of days later, that's more like it! I think it would pair up very well with the Genos.
My congratulations Danny. If you need any help, don't hesitate to contact me.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 17, 2023, 08:20:29 AM
Dear Sokratis :

Herewith I would like to thank you for your kind intention to help ALL people who are going to buy an Event.
That is absolutely wonderful and very encouraging for all new owners.

IMHO It might be a very good idea to start a seperate, new Forum : EVENT SUPPORT.


Take care, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on March 17, 2023, 09:02:47 AM
Dear Sokratis :

Herewith I would like to thank you for your kind intention to help ALL people who are going to buy an Event.
That is absolutely wonderful and very encouraging for all new owners.

IMHO It might be a very good idea to start a seperate, new Forum : EVENT SUPPORT.


Take care, JH
Thank you so much Jeff. I find it difficult to create a new forum for many reasons. The main reason is that it requires too much time which my professional and personal obligations do not allow.
However, I am actively involved in two Ketron groups on Facebook and mainly in this group https://www.facebook.com/groups/KetronSD90 the admins have designated me as (Group Expert).
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 17, 2023, 06:29:41 PM
Hey Sokratis :

Thanks for your feedback and the facebook link.
Very good news for all new Event customers, I guess. :)

Best regards, JH







Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on March 17, 2023, 11:08:57 PM
I have purchased an Event and it's arriving Monday :)

Congratulations, Danny. You must have purchased the one and only Ketron Event in the entire U.K. I looked on the Bonners Music website, and it currently says they are awaiting stock. In fact, everywhere you look all over the internet, it says basically the same thing. Ketron America doesn't even sell Ketron products through its website and doesn't even list the Event except for a small blurb on the main page. Frank in Connecticut, USA @ AudioProCT https://audioproct.com is a Ketron dealer, but he only has 1 reserve spot left, so apparently he will get a few in stock but not until around April 15-21. Also, Ketron America lists a few dealer affiliations, including Kaye's Music Scene in Reseda (LA), CA. Unfortunately, Mr. Kaye closed up his store back in 2021 yet Ketron USA still lists it as a dealer affiliate. Talk about falling through the cracks.  ??? Even other dealer affiliations in other states in the US don't sell Ketron products that I'm aware of, but they will supposedly service them? You need to be able to purchase the Event before you can have it serviced. Business 101. 💡

Anyway, let us know how you like your Event once you get it. Particularly the reports about the User Interface that supposedly lacks important navigational features and arranger functions that aren't accessible except through menu deep-diving, plus the absence of a physical button to turn on accompaniment which should be a no-brainer but is missing on the Event. PS: I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade, but if the 'problems' have easy workarounds or are solvable through an OS update, I might be interested in the Event again as a viable alternative.

All the best, Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: usaraiya on March 18, 2023, 12:54:22 AM
Mike,

I got my EVENT from AJ last week. I eagerly awaited its arrival as the demos were fabulous, and the riffs that followed the chords were intriguing.
Alas, my fascination was short-lived. I was disappointed, so I sent it back today and got stuck with a 20% restocking fee.

There are no multi-pads while Genos & PA5X have 4. The factory styles & sounds are much less than the other 2 KBs. The riffs that follow the chords are in very few styles, they are recorded in the styles, like the Sax & Harmonica in 2 different styles I found.
Although you could save 4096 registration in the machine, accessing them is a major problem; data wheel browsing, selection by a number, or scrolling through pages were the cumbersome options.

There are two main voices are selectable easily by buttons; other voices are there, but selecting them is not quick.
There are three intros & 4 endings, and breaks; selecting them on the fly could be done only through the touch screen by selecting the Intro/Ending button, which brings up the screen buttons that has to be kept on screen for it to be used.

The real voices, real bass, and real everything are fabulous; nowhere else have I found this feature.
The learning curve to master the touch screen functions is likely to be not short, as there are hundreds of functions and customizations available, but I cannot see them being done on stage, live or even in a studio unless one spends enough time to program your set completely in the studio first.
 
So, please don't take my word for it as I am a hobbyist, and a professional review would really be valuable & helpful from a stage artist.
It appeared very complex for someone like me who did not want to spend time diving deep into the machine, but would like to enjoy playing it quickly.
Hopefully, the upcoming Yamaha flagship arranger would do the trick most adequately, and I will be waiting for it with bated breath.
The EVENT would be the ultimate KB for specific musicians, but not for me. Again, it boils down to what works for you!

Uday
 :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rikkisbears on March 18, 2023, 03:40:32 AM
Hi Uday, so did you end up selling your PA5x? Sorry to hear Event didn’t work out for you.  No doubt it suits some people better than it does others. The operating system is totally different to Korg and Yamaha.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 18, 2023, 09:26:03 AM
Hey Friends :

IMHO !

If one is used to have a Yamaha, a Korg or a Ketron high end arranger keyboard ( for many years ! ) it is not easy, even hard to go for another brand.
We all know the reasons why.

If one is tempted to buy another brand, it might be partially based on dissatisfaction and/or emotional preferences / impulses.

In this case, it might be a lot better to wait for the new Yamaha high end arranger, compare the advantages and disadvantages of all 3 new arrangers and then make a final, wise decision. 

Adding an other arranger is a complete different approach / story.

Best wishes, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on March 18, 2023, 09:31:03 AM
Pretty hefty having to part with a 20% restocking fee after just a week.

This is about how much I lost against my Pa5X after 9 months.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: soundphase on March 18, 2023, 12:10:21 PM
Mike,

I got my EVENT from AJ last week. I eagerly awaited its arrival as the demos were fabulous, and the riffs that followed the chords were intriguing.
Alas, my fascination was short-lived. I was disappointed, so I sent it back today and got stuck with a 20% restocking fee.

There are no multi-pads while Genos & PA5X have 4. The factory styles & sounds are much less than the other 2 KBs. The riffs that follow the chords are in very few styles, they are recorded in the styles, like the Sax & Harmonica in 2 different styles I found.
Although you could save 4096 registration in the machine, accessing them is a major problem; data wheel browsing, selection by a number, or scrolling through pages were the cumbersome options.

There are two main voices are selectable easily by buttons; other voices are there, but selecting them is not quick.
There are three intros & 4 endings, and breaks; selecting them on the fly could be done only through the touch screen by selecting the Intro/Ending button, which brings up the screen buttons that has to be kept on screen for it to be used.

The real voices, real bass, and real everything are fabulous; nowhere else have I found this feature.
The learning curve to master the touch screen functions is likely to be not short, as there are hundreds of functions and customizations available, but I cannot see them being done on stage, live or even in a studio unless one spends enough time to program your set completely in the studio first.
 
So, please don't take my word for it as I am a hobbyist, and a professional review would really be valuable & helpful from stage artist.
It appeared very complex for someone like me who did not want to spend time diving deep into the machine, but would like to enjoy playing it quickly.
Hopefully, the upcoming Yamaha flagship arranger would do the trick most adequately, and I will be waiting for it with bated breath.
The EVENT would be the ultimate KB for specific musicians, but not for me. Again, it boils down to what works for you!

Uday
 :)
I would like to hear "real voices" in solo mode.
Quite all Event demos I hear extensively use styles (good styles), and it's difficult to judge solo voices quality.
Please, if it's possible for you to record something. Thank you very much in advance.
Regards
Soundphase
Soundphase
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: usaraiya on March 18, 2023, 01:10:31 PM
@Rikki,

Yes, I did keep the PA5X and am loving it even more now. The monthly webinars from Korg UK(Adam & Luke), and the cost free soundpacks/styles from Korg UK are fantastic( 2 so far).

@Soundphase,

Sorry, I already sent the Event back yesterday, so I cannot record the sounds for you.

Uday
 :)

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 18, 2023, 02:36:47 PM
Hi Uday :

I feel very sorry to hear your brand new Event's experience.  :'(
It must have been a hard lesson to you and to all of us, IMO.

All the best, JH









Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on March 18, 2023, 04:45:26 PM
Thank you for your valuable input, Uday. As we all know, the Event is not cheap. But a staggering 20% restocking fee is outrageous, especially since you only had it a few days, so it was still brand spanking new basically. I imagine AJ probably gets a big chunk of the restocking fee, so he's ecstatic, needless to say. But the real bummer, AJ will turn around and sell it as new if there are no visible marks of any kind. I mentioned in a previous post about Frank from AudioProCT in Connecticut, USA. His price for the Event is $5,299 and of course you have like an 8.5% sales tax in Connecticut, so you end up with a total of $5,749, and he might charge shipping which could be another $200 or so. Back when the Genos was first released, Frank quoted me a price of $4,200 for the Genos shipped to my door. Boy, how times have changed. :-\ Now even Yamaha is pretty much getting $6,000 for the Genos at most if not all online retail stores. And I imagine the Genos2 will take that up a notch or two when it's finally released. Although, Yamaha usually has an introductory offer on their new keyboard product releases, and we can only hope that's true for the Genos2. That's another reason I like to buy at a brick & mortar store like Guitar Center, where I can get a full refund if things don't work out. In conclusion, no Event for me. 👍 Another thing I'm noticing about the Event is even though the audio sampled voices i.e. Bass, Guitar, Drums are par excellence, the actual midi triggered voices leave something to be desired the more I hear the Event demos. For instance, the Event Tenor Sax is nothing to write home about, for one. Maybe there is more than one, but the one I heard sounded weak and thin. And those midi-triggered voices/patches don't sit well in the mix when playing along with the audio styles. The audio sampled voices drone out the other voices, so I suspect a lot of tweaking would probably be necessary to get them to sound right with the audio styles. To each his own. Some people might go gaga over the Event, and more power to them. Some keyboardists don't mind deep menu-diving, and if that's the case, the Event won't disappoint.  ;D

All the best, Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rikkisbears on March 18, 2023, 10:06:51 PM
@Rikki,

Yes, I did keep the PA5X and am loving it even more now. The monthly webinars from Korg UK(Adam & Luke), and the cost free soundpacks/styles from Korg UK are fantastic( 2 so far).


Uday
 :)

Hi Uday, thought for an awful moment you’d sold it to buy the Event 😀. Yes , another webinar, missed it again, at least I can watch the replay, plus we’re slowly getting closer to the update 😀 .I must check into those soundpacks, forgot all about it. Obviously they’re available to rest of the world, not just the UK as you’re obviously in the USA.

So sorry it ended such an expensive exercise for you with the Ketron, at least you tried it and now you know it’s not for you.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on March 21, 2023, 01:39:39 AM
Stick with Genos, it is quality and as Jeff says wait for it's successor.
Dig deep into the Genos effects and is surprising what you get
This has to be the year :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 21, 2023, 10:14:13 AM
Hi John :

Right, I am going to wait for the Genos' successor. IMO it is the best choice for a Yamaha customer.

When it will be available in the market ( at the end of 2023 or early 2024 ? ), I am going to wait for at least 6 months ( after reading reactions of members here ) before I will decide whether or not I am going to sell my beloved Tyros4 yet and replace it by the Genos' successor.

It is not my intention to go for another brand. Why should I kill a winning horse ? Yamaha NEVER let me down.

Best wishes, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on March 21, 2023, 01:14:34 PM
Here Here I feel the same way about Yamaha. You can't beat it.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on March 21, 2023, 01:58:25 PM
Agreed, Eileen.

We are unlikely to see any market in Canada for the Event because there doesn't seem to be any physical dealers. The PA5X is intriguing but you can bet your last dollar (pound in your case 🤣) that Yamaha has been listening to Genos users and will fill in the blanks for us.

I'll wait for Genos 2. And like Jeff, I'll wait a while before making the purchase, just to see what the feedback is like. Besides, I'll have no choice but to wait at least three months because I'm a Canadian. We don't count when it comes to Yamaha's distribution model. We're always last and yet we produce some of the world's best performers. Go figure...
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rphillipchuk on March 21, 2023, 02:30:25 PM

 Besides, I'll have no choice but to wait at least three months because I'm a Canadian. We don't count when it comes to Yamaha's distribution model. We're always last and yet we produce some of the world's best performers. Go figure...

+100000000
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on March 21, 2023, 05:30:37 PM
I really don't think you can go wrong with any of the big 3, people are going to have their favourites and that is absolutely fine. People have many reasons why they change or stick with what they know, you can make a good case for all 3 keyboards and they would all be good reasons. If there is to be a follow up to the Genos, of course it's going to be outstanding, I can't see how it wouldn't be. It's great for us keyboard enthusiasts that we'll get to see yet another new arranger keyboard sometime soon, hopefully this year. It always keeps things exciting.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on March 21, 2023, 09:27:47 PM
Hi
We will or may have an indication when Namm arives in April.
Lots of Yamaha tech being released.
If not then i would assume at a percentage of 100 that Late October we will have Genos 3.
I think it is fair to say it is a evens bet :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on March 21, 2023, 09:32:57 PM
----
Oh the Nord Grand is the only one that doesn't use the standard clacky Fatar keys, and the piano samples are *fantastic*. However, still not a wooden key. If you're looking for a better key feel and a better piano sound than the P515 (which is middling), try the CP88. I would've suggested one of the new wooden key Casios (PXS5000-7000), but oddly, they only offer USB B midi out, not standard 5 pin, rendering them difficult to use as a master KB.

One of my customers tried slaving a PSRsx900 from a Casio PXS1000... and weirdly it *worked* using a custom USB B to B cable. But it's not supposed to! :p
Baffling decision to leave out 5 pin midi, but *wow* are they ever compact and light. Wood/resin hybrid 88 keys weighs 25 lbs *with* built in speakers... the next lightest with built in speakers is the P515 which comes in a 49.5lbs.

If sound is more important than the key action, I'd go with the Nord Grand. If key action is most important I'd go with the CP88. If you want good key action (not as good as the Yamahas but superior to everyone else) and lightweight portability? Try one of the PXS5000/6000/7000. Crazy light. But you'll need to buy a USB B to B cable if you want to run a master/slave setup on your Genos.

Mark

Big shout out to Mark. Thank you for the suggestions!   :D :D :D

I received the Yamaha CP88 today as part of the Korg Pa5X trade in (I have some credit still left and sort of undecided what to do with it, have agreed on a MP11se with Bonners at the moment, available later in the year again but will see)

I am very impressed with the CP88! It sounds great, plays great and operates so well! It's so much better than the Roland RD2000 in my opinion. That one is clearly somewhat sluggish in comparison.

In addition, the Yamaha has superb build quality.

Together with the Genos (and whatever Yamaha comes up with next) this is going to be a superb setup I think. Not sure I still need that Kawai! Will see.

Yamaha doesn't seem to let me down!  ;D
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: kiplis on March 24, 2023, 05:37:30 PM
Make's me a bit wonder (from an other site) ::)

"Ketron Event two and a half months dj life in perfect condition with purchase invoice and original packaging
Selling due to non-use I can ship it €3950 not negotiable"
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 24, 2023, 09:22:51 PM
This is the second Event that had to go.  ???
What is the problem ?
JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rikkisbears on March 24, 2023, 09:31:45 PM
This is the second Event that had to go.  ???
What is the problem ?
JH
Sadly, maybe not up expectation.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on March 24, 2023, 09:37:26 PM
Sadly, maybe not up expectation.
I wonder that two. Every demo I've seen has been through YouTube. Even with top quality speakers, YouTube can sound mediocre due to their compression modes. Once these guys got the Event home, it may have sounded only marginally better.

I heard that one big difference between the Tyros 5 and Genos is that Yamaha redesigned the Genos sound processor. That's why it sounds more alive than the T5. Perhaps Ketron cheaped out on the sound processor.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 24, 2023, 10:02:59 PM
The Event might be more complicated in use than expected ?  ::)
Only time will tell, I guess.
JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Amwilburn on March 25, 2023, 01:08:44 AM
Andrew, you are most welcome!

Since you did end up with the cp88, make sure you download the latest firmware... it includes both a Bosendorfer and a Steinway sample. Both of which sound really great! Detailed and expressive.

Mark
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on March 25, 2023, 07:37:20 AM
Make's me a bit wonder (from an other site) ::)

"Ketron Event two and a half months dj life in perfect condition with purchase invoice and original packaging
Selling due to non-use I can ship it €3950 not negotiable"

Hi. I also saw this ad which was published in two Ketron Facebook groups. If I remember correctly (because he probably deleted them) there was an Italian guy who said in his description that he was selling it to buy the Pa5x 76. When people started asking him in the comments why he was selling it or if he had a problem, he said that he had no problem. Simple curiosity. So, I will speak to you as always as a person who is still working with Genos and preparing the Event for work. I personally cannot know what everyone is thinking or how they are thinking when they buy something. But as a professional musician which is my main job, I can tell you that I too have been in this position, (much earlier) buying an instrument which I finally realized was not for me, so I sold it in two months. It was a Korg Pa1x, and if I remember correctly, it was 2003. But the problem then was different. I don't know how many of you know that I'm Greek man and I live in the Greek island (Crete), so it wasn't easy to try an instrument because I had to travel by plane 35 minutes, or 10 hours by boat, to go to Athens where the Korg representative is located.
So, when I bought Genos in the early spring of 2018, I traveled to Athens specifically for this purpose. To see and explore Genos, to decide before the buying. Of course, I didn't regret it.
So, I recommend the same to everyone. Don't buy anything before trying it and also don't buy something if you don't need it. If the instrument you have satisfies you, and can meet all your needs, stay where you are. But when you want to buy something new you have to think about it very carefully and reflect what you want from the instrument in question.
Especially when someone has been working with Yamaha arrangers for years (like everyone here) and suddenly thinks of switching to another company, or even combining an instrument from another company with his Yamaha. I must be sure of the reason. What or what are the positive elements that I found in this instrument?
What will it offer me more than what I have?
I think if we don't do that then we just become consumers.
For someone to buy such an expensive instrument like the Event because they happened to listen to some demos on YouTube I don't think it's a good idea. Of course, there is also the counterargument, that you cannot have a complete opinion of an instrument within a few hours of trying it at an exhibition. Right. But what you will get from this test is crucial in making a decision because, you see many things that are not visible in a demo. You see and touch the hardware, the keys, browse through its software, see how the operating mode is set up, and get a picture that can't exist unless you see it up close.
I also have a friend who a few months after buying the Genos, sold it and bought the Pa4x. So, what does this mean that Genos is a bad instrument? Of course not, just for some reasons of his own it wasn't what he wanted.


Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on March 25, 2023, 09:59:22 AM
I cannot fault the Genos and the next one is surely worth the wait. (5 years now) Something will happen for sure.
I do not like the sound of the Korg PAX5 and too many if's and but's attached to the Ketron
"Will they spill the beans at this years NAMM?? 8)

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Tommy 73 on March 25, 2023, 10:57:13 AM
I cannot fault the Genos and the next one is surely worth the wait. (5 years now) Something will happen for sure.
I do not like the sound of the Korg PAX5 and too many if's and but's attached to the Ketron
"Will they spill the beans at this years NAMM?? 8)

I would imagine Yamaha have been paying special attention to Korg's disastrous PA5X launch, where they have left themselves wide open to criticism, and one would think Yamaha will most certainly not want a repeat of that in the hope of scooping up many disgruntled PA5X owners like me with a Genos replacement...

So, if we need to wait a little longer for stellar product to hit the ground running (unlike Korg) from Yamaha, that will be fine by me....
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on March 25, 2023, 12:09:56 PM
Very well summarized Sokratis -one can't repeat these things often enough.

Most here are hobby musicians and too many times we (wish to) buy new keyboard just to have new toy to play with. But if we don't know why exactly we need new keyboard, disappointment usually follows. What I'm saying is, someone can be happier with PSR-SX600 than someone with Genos. Not because PSR-SX600 would be better, but because he made right decision for him. Yes, Genos has "this and that", but who cares if "this and that" is later never used. When buying, we shouldn't look for "the best" keyboard... we should concentrate on things that matter to each one individually.

Having SX700 for few years now (and two Yamaha's before), I know quite well what I like, what I'm missing, what I wish to be better and what I need. If I find such keyboard and I can afford it, I'll buy it -doesn't matter who makes it.
Finding objective information is not easy... because nobody talks about limitations and explains them (as practical consequences). Yes, if lucky, we can tryout keyboard for few minutes in local store. But let's be frank, the only thing we can check is keybed and panel buttons -and that's it. There's not enough time to get an impression of style & voices management, style & voice creation, connectivity flexibility, recording options, etc.
And then, there are "little things" that we many times don't even notice. For example, on Ketron Event, wav sample length is limited to 6 seconds, which in my opinion, is extremely short. I don't know, maybe long sustain is solved differently on Event, but nobody talks about that. Ok, I'm not some pianist, and so 6sec is probably not an issue for me... but it's an 5000€ keyboard, where piano (or any voice) is expected to be flawless -it's simply assumed at that price. That is, Event might be excellent keyboard for me, but how can I know that, if nobody honestly talks about it's limitations and workarounds?

I think above is the main reason why we tend to stick with brand we have... we just try to avoid bad surprises (especially at high priced keyboards). On the other hand, by doing that way, we maybe miss having "the perfect" keyboard  :)

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: kiplis on March 25, 2023, 12:21:50 PM
And yet, dealers are selling keyboards by saying; "Preorder now, and you can have your new keyboard in few months"....  ::) How to test and evaluate?
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on March 25, 2023, 01:53:15 PM
This is why i think that a new Genos is putting the wind up them 8)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on March 25, 2023, 03:24:25 PM
Andrew, you are most welcome!

Since you did end up with the cp88, make sure you download the latest firmware... it includes both a Bosendorfer and a Steinway sample. Both of which sound really great! Detailed and expressive.

Mark

My CP88 came with 1.5 firmware so has all the updates from what I can see. Good knowing it's not a model that's been lying in a shop for years and years. Had no idea the Hamburg was a Steinway though. It does sound great. A bit more character than the CFX. The U1 and Felt piano are great too. And nice having the likes of the C7 and a few C3s in there also. Don't know if we are going to get any further updates, maybe it's all that can be done I guess. Maybe a Fazioli is possible?

I end up improvving for 30-40 minutes with different piano sounds at a time.

So, so far it's been excellent.  ;D

but that £1000+ RRP on top of what I paid/exchanged. Wow, what a difference.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 25, 2023, 03:35:45 PM
Hey Bogdan :

If we buy ( internet ) a new arranger keyboard here in The Netherlands, we have 30 days ( after invoice date ) to send it back ( without explanation ) in the original packaging.
Transport will be paid by the supplier.
No damage, in original packaging = 100% money back within 14 days.

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on March 25, 2023, 03:46:27 PM
Very well summarized Sokratis -one can't repeat these things often enough.

Most here are hobby musicians and too many times we (wish to) buy new keyboard just to have new toy to play with. But if we don't know why exactly we need new keyboard, disappointment usually follows. What I'm saying is, someone can be happier with PSR-SX600 than someone with Genos. Not because PSR-SX600 would be better, but because he made right decision for him. Yes, Genos has "this and that", but who cares if "this and that" is later never used. When buying, we shouldn't look for "the best" keyboard... we should concentrate on things that matter to each one individually.

Having SX700 for few years now (and two Yamaha's before), I know quite well what I like, what I'm missing, what I wish to be better and what I need. If I find such keyboard and I can afford it, I'll buy it -doesn't matter who makes it.
Finding objective information is not easy... because nobody talks about limitations and explains them (as practical consequences). Yes, if lucky, we can tryout keyboard for few minutes in local store. But let's be frank, the only thing we can check is keybed and panel buttons -and that's it. There's not enough time to get an impression of style & voices management, style & voice creation, connectivity flexibility, recording options, etc.
And then, there are "little things" that we many times don't even notice. For example, on Ketron Event, wav sample length is limited to 6 seconds, which in my opinion, is extremely short. I don't know, maybe long sustain is solved differently on Event, but nobody talks about that. Ok, I'm not some pianist, and so 6sec is probably not an issue for me... but it's an 5000€ keyboard, where piano (or any voice) is expected to be flawless -it's simply assumed at that price. That is, Event might be excellent keyboard for me, but how can I know that, if nobody honestly talks about it's limitations and workarounds?

I think above is the main reason why we tend to stick with brand we have... we just try to avoid bad surprises (especially at high priced keyboards). On the other hand, by doing that way, we maybe miss having "the perfect" keyboard  :)

Bogdan
Hello Bogdan.
I Agree. As for the sampler and very short samples, yes. This is a serious problem due to several factors which unfortunately I cannot analyze for many reasons. But as we said before, every instrument has its positives and negatives. Everyone can evaluate and judge what is right for them. What I would describe as a very strong point of Event is the ease of creating new styles (midi or audio) with tools that are particularly creative and easy to use. But I say it again. Everyone must assess their own needs. And this evaluation I think today is much easier than ever. Just my opinion.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 25, 2023, 04:28:48 PM

Hi Guys :

I absolutely agree one has to buy an arranger he wants and he likes. Why not ? We are all free people.  ;)

At the end of this year we might expect 3 highend arrangers : Ketron, Korg and hopefully Yamaha.
However all individual arrangers have a different OS.

I am very familiar with Yamaha's OS for more than 22 years now. Never let me down.
I have gathered so much Yamaha software during all these years.

Gimme one simple reason why a happy customer should go for another brand ...  :)

Best regards, JH



Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on March 25, 2023, 04:45:15 PM
Keyboard manufacturers such as the Big Three i.e. Yamaha, Korg, and Roland, and yes Ketron too, have been shifting to a mostly online purchase format for keyboards in particular. Over five years ago, I purchased my Genos at a local Guitar Center mostly because if there was any problem or it didn't suit me I could return it for a full refund, whereas, most places in the digital realm you have to pay shipping and usually a humongous restocking free if something doesn't work out. But today keyboard manufacturers, etc., I think prefer the online business model because of the convenience and most likely the cost savings vs. brick & mortar stores which a lot of people don't have access to for one reason or another. So if and when the Genos2 is finally released, be prepared to buy it at an online retailer in most cases. Guitar Centers today have slim pickings of keyboards in stock, and I suspect because of the Genos2's astronomical price tag Guitar Center will likely not stock them in their stores, at least here in the USA anyway. That's really unfortunate because there will be no way to 'demo' beforehand to see if the product meets people's needs. I think as time goes on, the phrase "sight unseen" will continue to gather momentum because of the internet scheme of things which, from what I've read, manufacturers are leaning towards more and more. Now watch Yamaha blow my hypothesis right out of the water regarding the Genos2.  But that's fine and dandy with me because I'd really prefer to play the Genos2 in person before I decide to empty my pockets.  ;D

All the best, Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 25, 2023, 05:32:49 PM

Almost 2 decades ago Roland ended their high end arranger's production.
Before that time Roland were the market leaders. 8)

As far as I know Roland have never informed their customers why they left this high end arranger market.
Simultaneously 2 Italian producers ended all their arranger production and closed their manufactury.
Ketron is the only Italian manufacterer left.

In 2002 Yamaha lauched their Tyros and were the market leaders in a blink of an eye.
Since then Yamaha never lost their #1 position and are still the market leaders today ... for the next decades.  :D, IMO


JH



 
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on March 25, 2023, 05:44:38 PM
@Sokratis
I've mentioned sample length limitation just as an example, where many will say "is not issue at all" and others "is unacceptable for me" -that's why it's important to know them. Another example would be for Korg PA5x, where song recording (onboard) is only possible in mp3 format. For me, that's not a problem at all (if really needed, one can still record in wav format by using Line out), for someone else however, it can be a "no-go".
And being at that, every keyboard brand/model has some limitations.. the only question is, which of them we are ready to accept. And many times we must also be ready to adapt, so we can benefit of having some features which doesn't exist on another keyboard -we shouldn't be afraid of learning new things.

@Jeff
Yes, a good return policy is always welcome and makes decision easier. And to answer your question: if you're happy with particular brand, then I see no reason you to change :)
As for Yamaha being a market leader... Casio might be market leader in wrist watches, but Rolex is still considered as better brand  8)

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on March 25, 2023, 06:10:21 PM

In 2002 Yamaha lauched their Tyros and were the market leaders in a blink of an eye.
Since then Yamaha never lost their #1 position and are still the market leaders today ... for the next decades.  :D, IMO


JH

Hi Jeff,

Are we talking in the home market as I would agree with you on that one. I think in a live situation (or as a one man band) I think it's a bit more open and even than that.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on March 25, 2023, 06:40:28 PM

And being at that, every keyboard brand/model has some limitations.. the only question is, which of them we are ready to accept. And many times we must also be ready to adapt, so we can benefit of having some features which doesn't exist on another keyboard -we shouldn't be afraid of learning new things.


That is very true and what I also said in a round about way in one of my earlier posts. Out of all the major keyboards out there, the one that has the least amount of limitations and suits your needs more is the instrument you should be using for whatever purpose it is you're using it for.

For example, I have had my Ketron Event for nearly a week now and I have identified some of it's limitations already when I compare it to my SD60 (which the Event succeeded), but it's strengths is what's allowing me to keep it overall.


As for Yamaha being a market leader... Casio might be market leader in wrist watches, but Rolex is still considered as better brand 


That is very true as well.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 25, 2023, 07:29:18 PM
Hey Bogdan :

Rolex might be the winner if we talk about turnover and quality. :)
I cannot afford a Rolex. :D

I am not in the position to say what is the best arranger. Who am I ?
As Sokratis well said : all of them have their pros & cons.
In this case it is not a price problem. All are approx. EU 5,000,--.
It is only a matter of taste, experience, needs and last but not least budget, IMHO.

For the time being my Yamaha Ty4 is still a winner for my personal applications.
No rush at all for me to upgrade.

I cannot convince my wife nor myself I need a new expensive arranger for the time being. :P
Other expenses have priority in 2023.

Take care, my friend
JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 25, 2023, 08:00:09 PM
Hello Danny :

IMHO Yamaha is #1 as far as arranger's worldwide sales turnover is concerned.
As far as I have heard : 90% of Yamaha's high end arrangers are owned by home players ( for hobby only ).

It would be very interesting to let us know why you are happy with your new Event.
BTW ... I am only interested in the pros.  :D

Thanks in advance.
Best regards, JH



Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: DrakeM on March 25, 2023, 08:37:51 PM
@SokratisCasio might be market leader in wrist watches, but Rolex is still considered as better brand  8)
Bogdan

Nope ... Casio keeps the same time and date as a Rolex does. Rolex is more expensive to do the same job as a Casio. So, that just proves some folks have more money with nothing to blow it on or are just really bad a handling money.  ;D

Drake
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: DrakeM on March 25, 2023, 09:00:15 PM
I just checked and all Rolex watches come with only a 5 year warranty. For $5,000 or more for a watch, that ought to be a LIFETIME warranty. Rolex warranties are now totally untransferable.

By the way ... all the Rolex watches I viewed only have the TIME and DATE (the same as a TIMEX watch). My $22 Casio has the TIME, DATE and tells most importantly what "DAY" it is. Also it came with a 7 year battery.  ;)

I just did the math: By purchasing a $22 Casio verses a $5000 Rolex, I earn an average of $448 every year (for life) by getting the Casio.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on March 25, 2023, 09:50:48 PM
LOL, I don't have a watch on at all. So I save even more! Besides, my wife does tell me what day it is and when and what I have to do ..  ;D ;D
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Christophermoment on March 25, 2023, 09:52:08 PM
I just checked and all Rolex watches come with only a 5 year warranty. For $5,000 or more for a watch, that ought to be a LIFETIME warranty. Rolex warranties are now totally untransferable.

By the way ... all the Rolex watches I viewed only have the TIME and DATE (the same as a TIMEX watch). My $22 Casio has the TIME, DATE and tells most importantly what "DAY" it is. Also it came with a 7 year battery.  ;)

I just did the math: By purchasing a $22 Casio verses a $5000 Rolex, I earn an average of $448 every year (for life) by getting the Casio.


Couldn't agree more.
 :D :D :D
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rikkisbears on March 25, 2023, 11:50:28 PM
Quote from: BogdanH
Another example would be for Korg PA5x, where song recording (onboard) is only possible in mp3 format. For me, that's not a problem at all (if really needed, one can still record in wav format by using Line out)
Bogdan

Hi Bogdan, it does have a 16 track sequencer, ( doesn’t do quick record currently)  or are you referring to the audio recording side of things , where it does only record in mp3 format.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rikkisbears on March 26, 2023, 12:16:20 AM
Hi ,
snobbery, when hubby bought his brand new  $70 k BMW 10 years ago.  He pulled out his $12 flip phone. Can you please connect this via Bluetooth ( neither of us could work out how to do it) , the car yard techie looked at him , can’t you afford something slightly better, hubby quipped back, yep , I could have spent $18.😀 . Techie took the hint. haha.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on March 26, 2023, 06:33:58 AM
Hi Guys :

I absolutely agree one has to buy an arranger he wants and he likes. Why not ? We are all free people.  ;)

At the end of this year we might expect 3 highend arrangers : Ketron, Korg and hopefully Yamaha.
However all individual arrangers have a different OS.

I am very familiar with Yamaha's OS for more than 22 years now. Never let me down.
I have gathered so much Yamaha software during all these years.

Gimme one simple reason why a happy customer should go for another brand ...  :)

Best regards, JH
No reason when there is no reason.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on March 26, 2023, 01:54:42 PM
Hi Rikki,

Hi Bogdan, it does have a 16 track sequencer, ( doesn’t do quick record currently)  or are you referring to the audio recording side of things , where it does only record in mp3 format.
I was referring to on-board audio recording of the song that musician plays, which can only saved in mp3 format. As I mentioned, I don't see that as limitation -it's good enough for listening and online (Youtube) publishing. As for "serious" work, it's expected that keyboard will be connected to PC via separate mixer/audio-interface and in this case, we can record in wav format (for further mixing and fine tuning).
And again, I just mentioned mp3 "limitation" as an example.. to show how different wishes, needs and priorities we all have.

...
By the way ... all the Rolex watches I viewed only have the TIME and DATE (the same as a TIMEX watch). My $22 Casio has the TIME, DATE and tells most importantly what "DAY" it is....
Yeah, is funny with these things... now imagine: For 5000€ TOTL keyboard one needs to buy loudspeakers separately, while 700€ SX600 has them already built in -I'm sure you get the point :)

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on March 26, 2023, 03:41:32 PM
The reason for separate speakers on the flagship was to keep the weight down.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: soundphase on March 26, 2023, 05:00:39 PM
Why pay for low quality internal speakers when this type of instrument expects to be connected to professional quality speakers or monitor speakers ...
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: rikkisbears on March 27, 2023, 01:04:45 AM
Hi Rikki,
I was referring to on-board audio recording of the song that musician plays, which can only saved in mp3 format. As I mentioned, I don't see that as limitation -it's good enough for listening and online (Youtube) publishing. As for "serious" work, it's expected that keyboard will be connected to PC via separate mixer/audio-interface and in this case, we can record in wav format (for further mixing and fine tuning).
And again, I just mentioned mp3 "limitation" as an example.. to show how different wishes, needs and priorities we all have.

Bogdan
Hi Bogdan, thought that might be the case.  For me mp3 would be more than enough
(IF I actually recorded 😀) and as you said for serious work, one would use pc.
Actually I used to record sx900 backing tracks  for my es920 piano, (when I had them in seperate  rooms).It was able to play  audio files ,mp3 and wav. and I used to just be able to play along. I couldn’t hear that much difference, so I just stuck with the mp3 format.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on March 27, 2023, 02:26:55 PM
Soundphase has explained  "Why run a Rolls Royce on a Mini engine" 8) ::) :P

You know it makes sense :)

Genos speakers are so tinny and tries to make up the quality with a cheap boom box :-[ ;D  "IMO"
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 27, 2023, 03:23:37 PM
Hey John :

Yamaha are producing pro speakers especially designed for recording, mixing and mastering.

Perhaps they might consider to end the production of the present external speaker set for the Genos' successor ?
Just a thought.

JH

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: mixermixer on March 27, 2023, 03:46:08 PM
Speaking of speakers (haha), the SX900 speakers are pretty good for internal speakers, I can keep up with a band.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on March 28, 2023, 10:09:15 PM
Hello Danny :

It would be very interesting to let us know why you are happy with your new Event.
BTW ... I am only interested in the pros.  :D

Thanks in advance.
Best regards, JH

Hi Jeff,

Yes of course to answer your question.

I am happy with the Event because of course what is the main reason why someone buys an instrument is because it sounds good, and yes the Event sounds excellent. The category of ‘real’ styles as they call it do sound exceptional. There’s about over 100 of them and should cover most music genres.

I found the OS easy to use and work out, I haven’t found any complications with it.

Sliders are organised really well. Touch screen is very responsive and very high res, you can change to many colours or themes or make your own but I’m happy with the default blue.

Sounds are top notch and I’m really pleased that Ketron have added some really nice choirs & vocals that are in line with the best of them out there.

One of the most beautiful things about it is its design, it’s actually the lightest Ketron at 32lbs compared to my beast of the SD60 at 42lbs, it’s really slick & stylish without compromising the metal build quality, I think it’s because Ketron made it as slim as possible.

There’s maybe more things I could say but I do really like this arranger keyboard.

I’ve had it 6 days so far not even a week!

All the best to you.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 28, 2023, 10:47:03 PM
Let me first thank for your very interesting reply, Danny. :)

It looks like you are very pleased with this new high end arranger.
It also sounds like you have received what you were expecting and even much more. I am so happy for you.

CONGRATULATIONS !

I would be very grateful to let me know your net purchasing price.
If you can share this amount with me plse
be so kind to send me a PM.
If that is not possible for you I will understand and respect that.

Enjoy your new instrument !
Best wishes, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on March 29, 2023, 12:01:26 AM
Speaking of speakers (haha), the SX900 speakers are pretty good for internal speakers, I can keep up with a band.
Must be a pretty quiet band ;D. At any rate, good to hear (no pun intended).
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on March 29, 2023, 02:55:31 PM
Let me first thank for your very interesting reply, Danny. :)

It looks like you are very pleased with this new high end arranger.
It also sounds like you have received what you were expecting and even much more. I am so happy for you.

CONGRATULATIONS !

I would be very grateful to let me know your net purchasing price.
If you can share this amount with me plse
be so kind to send me a PM.
If that is not possible for you I will understand and respect that.

Enjoy your new instrument !
Best wishes, JH

Hi Jeff,

I have PM'd you as requested :)

You are quite right I am pleased with the Event but you asked me only to write down the positives so I did ! By no means is this a perfect keyboard, it has it's quirks and annoyances as well, there is no perfect keyboard out there.

I really want to see Yamaha make some movements and noise now about their next offering because otherwise it's going to be a very long time before we hear anything from Ketron and Korg seeing that they've released their flagships pretty close to each other and can't expect anything new from them for a very long time, maybe Korg would do a Pa1000 follow up with the Pa5x design and Ketron will do a 61 key Event with speakers but even then they will be years off I should think. So come on Yamaha, give us some more to talk about, hint hint !!!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on March 29, 2023, 03:16:06 PM
Agreed, Danny. Us Yamaha users are getting impatient. Thanks for the update 👍.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: john smies on March 29, 2023, 03:17:46 PM
Hi Jeff,

sent you a PM as well.
please reply using my email:  pa******@**********.nl

greetings,
John Smies


Edit 2023-03-29 by overover: Removed email address.
Please do not post your email address in the public forum. Registered users can see your email anyway by opening your profile (by clicking on your user name, on the left side of one of your posts).
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 29, 2023, 08:28:03 PM
Herewith I would like to thank Danny and John for their personal feedback. :)

The UK and the Benelux ( Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg ) Event prices seem all to be equal for the time being ( all over Europe approx. the same pricing, maybe ? ).

Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: john smies on March 30, 2023, 10:26:50 AM

Hi everyone,

Considering the interest and comparisons between ketron and yamaha and the fact that I have recently purchased and received my event I thought it wise to start a new thread on the subject overhere. Hope this meets with appreciation.

regards
John Smies

https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,65861.0.html

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 30, 2023, 10:35:08 AM
Good morning Sokratis :

Today I have heard from a Dutch colleague, who bought a brand new Event last week, the Event's O.S. seems to be rather complicated, even after 3 years Ketron's SD experience.
Being one of the Event's software developers and being a Genos' owner simultaneously, I would be very grateful to let us know your impressions after comparing Yamaha's and Ketron's O.S. use.

Your comments would be very much appreciated. Thank you very much. 
Best regards, JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on March 30, 2023, 11:15:46 AM
Mmm.. You actually ask about the known way, what do you think yourself? Everyone understands that a different OS requires a new investment from you to get to know it, that makes perfect sense. Enough information can be found on inet!! You also have similar with a new TV or a mobile phone: Android or IOS, or a car: you name it. Of course you can ask someone who has such a system. He could answer: Oh, it's not too bad. Do you make your decision based on that 'one personal' opinion? The core is: ultimately you have to decide for yourself and investigate whether you want to make a choice based on your own findings, sometimes despite what others think.   ;)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 30, 2023, 12:00:26 PM
Well, the problem is : I have to find out myself how a new O.S. works after I have bought the new arranger, not earlier, IMHO. :o

There is only one solution for me : ask other people how they are experiencing the change.

I agree others ' impressions do not always answer all questions but they might be very helpful.

JH
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on March 30, 2023, 12:11:43 PM
... a different OS requires a new investment from you to get to know it...
-straight to the point. We shouldn't expect different brands to have similar OS or workflow -if that would be the case, then there would be no progress.

From info I gathered so far, Yamaha is the easiest to be used and that's because two reasons: very good user interface and because it has quite limited options (the less options we have, the less confusion there is). And many times, not even those are actually used... we prefer to be in a "comfort zone", so to speak: select style (or find on web), adjust it a bit, make few settings in mixer and start playing. That is, many never created a style from scratch (which is main attribute of "arranger" keyboard) or tried to create new voice. That's ok. Many of us just enjoy playing music. And if that's the case, there's no reason to switch the brand.

But those, who wish to be more creative, they do hit on limitations and start to look elsewhere. It's like buying car: you're happy with Fiat, but at some point you realize you need big family SUV, which Fiat doesn't make -so you check other brands who make what you need.
And that's why we say there's no "the best" keyboard -because it depends on what each of us needs.
Buying more expensive keyboard or switching to "better" brand won't automatically make our playing better -it will only become better if we're ready to learn how to use additional features.

Just my 2cents,
Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on March 30, 2023, 12:58:33 PM
I agree with you. I suppose the majority of Genos/SX/PSR owners don't like complicated situations. Otherwise, just to stick with the brand, they might have bought a Yamaha Montage/Kronos. In other words: ready-made, user-friendly and a known system will prevail (plug and play; out of the box) and not illogical if a good keyboard is delivered. A Ketron Event leans more to a Yamaha Montage, a lot of tweaking and twirling functions. If those target musicians wants to move away from the brand (Genos/SX), it will be more towards Korg PA5x than towards Ketron Event. I actually expect that the new Yamaha will be more different (also with regard to the operating system) than the transitions between the various models. Even more than the transition between the Tyros 5 and the Genos. So there will be quite a learning curve in that as well. If not... it will be Genos 1,5  ;)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 30, 2023, 01:13:33 PM
Hi Ton and Bogdan :

I fully agree with all your arguments but, being a Yamaha keyboard player for more than 22 years, I have never been disappointed.   
I am not convinced why I should go for another brand despite all pros and cons.
An additional arranger might be an answer but ... lack of room is a pressing problem. :P

JH


Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on March 30, 2023, 01:30:46 PM
Jeff, if you read the posts well, it never says you have to buy another brand! Even if you are not satisfied with the one you have, it is your own personal decision to do what you want to do. That's well pointed out in my (and allow me: Bogdans) post... ;)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on March 30, 2023, 01:43:52 PM
being a Yamaha keyboard player for more than 22 years, I have never been disappointed.   

I am not convinced why I should go for another brand despite all pros and cons.


You've answered your own question when you said "I have never been disappointed", so I think you should absolutely stick with Yamaha, and why not? They are superb instruments.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Jeff Hollande on March 30, 2023, 03:41:58 PM
Hi Guys :

After 22 pages of this thread, called,  New TOTL Arranger from Ketron, plse read my personal, final conclusion, as follows.

I will wait for Yamaha's answer before comparing apples and pears.
I do respect and congratulate ( very sincerely ) all colleages of this forum whatever their choice may be.
Last but not least, from the bottem of my heart, I wish all players a lot of luck, fun and joy with their present or future choice.
It is my personal intention and conviction to stick with Yamaha.

Herewith this subject is closed for me to avoid possible repetitions. ;)


Best regards, JH

 
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on March 30, 2023, 04:07:55 PM
Very nice words Jeff and thank you :)

It's great you made a choice and stuck with it. I do hope Yamaha puts out something soon, it would be very strange if they didn't but I'm sure they will.

Don't stop posting your comments on this subject thread though, I do enjoying reading everybody's comments including yours, I am sure there's more feedback to give regarding Event or any other non-Yamaha board. Maybe you meant you didn't want to comment anymore about you thinking of getting an Event (if that was ever your intention), I don't know as I haven't read every single page.

You can now start to think about the next Genos and the great new things that will come with it! :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on March 30, 2023, 11:44:37 PM
I agree with Danny. Jeff, your input is always welcome, as is everyone else's. The main purpose of this forum is to discuss all things "Genos" but most of the questions and issues have been addressed, so a major side chain discussion on what's to come is healthy - even at 22+ pages 🤣.

Soon, the new Genos will be released and some of us will own one and can start a whole new thread about said keyboard. I enjoy reading everyone's thoughts on the current subject. It's healthy because in the end, we all have the same goal, and that's to make music.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: maartenb on March 31, 2023, 09:52:01 AM
I actually expect that the new Yamaha will be more different (also with regard to the operating system) than the transitions between the various models. Even more than the transition between the Tyros 5 and the Genos. So there will be quite a learning curve in that as well.

Let's speculate.

I would be very surprised if the Genos 2 has a different OS. As far as I know, all keyboard models in the venerable Tyros series have the same OS and user interface. The Genos is the first keyboard model after ten years to have a completely different OS (and user interface). I believe that is also (one of?) the reason(s) why the model name was changed from Tyros to Genos.

Building user interfaces take a lot of development effort. Idem for implementing a new OS. I believe this is the reason why the Genos came four years after Tyros 5*, while all the Tyroses had a three year release pattern (with the exception of two years between Tyros 3 and Tyros 4). So Yamaha would be throwing away money if they change the OS and user interface again after just one model. That's why I believe the next keyboard will be called Genos 2.

I think there's no technical reason to change CPU architecture and OS, so I expect those to be the same for Genos 2. And the user interface will still be touch oriented, so no reason to completely overhaul the current well-working UI.

So sure, there will be changes, but I expect that owners of Genos will quickly feel at home with a successor.


Maarten

*) Also because the Genos has a new hardware architecture (sound chip, memory) compared to the Tyros series
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on March 31, 2023, 10:56:56 AM
...The Genos is the first keyboard model after ten years to have a completely different OS (and user interface).
...
-kindly disagree Maarten.

My opinion... We should differentiate between OS and User Interface (UI). And as far I can tell, OS hasn't changed in last 15 years. Yes, new options/features have been added (depending on hardware capability), but that doesn't make new OS. It's similar as with Windows7 and Windows11 -same OS.
So, why was new name (Genos) chosen? We can only guess... could be marketing move, could be because it was first Yamaha with touch screen, because next Tyros would be Tyros 6 (japanese traditionally avoid number 6), because it had totally different design than Tyros before, etc.
But then, we don't really care about OS.. we care about user friendly UI (and Yamaha has it) and about options & features -and here's a lot of room for improvement. It's hard to imagine that all that can be made by simply adding them to existing OS. For example, importing wav samples directly, so we could create voices on keyboard. That would be totally new concept for Yamaha and would probably require new OS.. because it would require too many changes and adaptations in existing OS. And that's just one example! At some point, it's just better to start from scratch.

PS: just saw Jeff's comment -and fully agree!

Just my opinion,
Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: soundphase on March 31, 2023, 11:09:02 AM
why was new name (Genos) chosen
A new CPU generation (the same as Montage). PJD is the expert.
I think this new generation opens far more doors. (more "channels" with other specific processors, more computation power ...)

I would not be surprise if some AI appears to dynamically choose/change samples. (but perhaps it's too early) => new generation of sounds.

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on March 31, 2023, 01:14:43 PM
Hi :

If the Genos2 is just an extensive Genos' update instead of a real upgrade most customers would be very surprised and perhaps really disappointed.
IMHO most Yamaha fans, after 6 years time, are expecting a complete new high end arranger that will beat all competition.  ;)

JH

Yes I agree, the longer Yamaha leave it the bigger the expectations will be and it's only natural to think that especially if you look at their past trajectories between the Tyros range.

I wished Yamaha would at least suggest that something new is arriving without going into the nitty gritty (although that would be great too lol), but I also understand they still need to sell the existing Genos' as well so it's a catch 22 for them I guess.

But if there is one thing I have been annoyed with Yamaha in the past though has been when I purchased the T3 there was no inkling that a T4 was on the horizon and sure enough 6 months later there was and that did a annoy me a little as I wasn't in a position to upgrade straight away back then. A similar thing happened when I got my T4 where nearly a year later the T5 came along although this time around I wasn't so annoyed because I didn't think there was too much difference sonically between the T4 and T5 as much as there were between the T3 and T4.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on March 31, 2023, 01:31:25 PM
Mmm..I would like to point out that we forgot that there is a a forum 'the next Yamaha keyboard' as it has nothing to do with Ketron?? Copy and paste, pls. Moderator if it is possible?? ;)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: soundphase on March 31, 2023, 01:37:53 PM
And here, we are in "Genos general" folder .... ;)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on March 31, 2023, 01:48:13 PM
Oh Oh Yes, you are right...  :-[ :-\ Once I hope we get 1 folder for 'non Yamaha' issues.. pls ... OK, I will dream on  ;)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on March 31, 2023, 04:13:58 PM
hi everyone,
I know that this is Genos section and that some are getting tired reading about Korg or Ketron, but I think it's good for everyone to be informed.
Here's a the latest relative short video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zZdLtvu7As) about Ketron, which answers some questions.

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: soundphase on March 31, 2023, 04:35:29 PM
hi everyone,
I know that this is Genos section and that some are getting tired reading about Korg or Ketron, but I think it's good for everyone to be informed.
Here's a the latest relative short video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zZdLtvu7As) about Ketron, which answers some questions.

Bogdan
I also like information about other brands in threads, but I also like to let people talk about the Genos, and comparisons to the Genos in a thread initiated to discuss other hardware. Some disgressions can't be prevented.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on March 31, 2023, 04:47:00 PM
hi everyone,
I know that this is Genos section and that some are getting tired reading about Korg or Ketron, but I think it's good for everyone to be informed.
Here's a the latest relative short video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zZdLtvu7As) about Ketron, which answers some questions.

Bogdan
That's about the SD90 module ... not the Event ..
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on March 31, 2023, 05:37:16 PM
Hi :

Since competition starts to be more and more active in the market now, it would be wonderful if Yamaha should start to tell the entire arranger world a little bit about their new Genos' successor plans.
Even if this news is just a tip of the iceberg ...

On the other hand I am suspecting Yamaha are obliged to sell their present Genos' stock first.
Not too late yet ?

JH

Yes it's pretty much what I said in a round about way. I would like to see ANY updates but I don't know if we'll see it, not officially anyway. The two biggest tale tail signs usually starts from leaks, usually a leaked image followed by eventually seeing dealers not stocking the Genos anymore as new, in exactly the same way that happened with the Pa4x.

Someone out there somewhere certainly know's something we don't and are just not able to tell us !!! grrrrrrrrrrrrr!!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Christophermoment on March 31, 2023, 07:13:39 PM
hi everyone,
I know that this is Genos section and that some are getting tired reading about Korg or Ketron, but I think it's good for everyone to be informed.
Here's a the latest relative short video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zZdLtvu7As) about Ketron, which answers some questions.

Bogdan

Well that answered all my questions, very informative and up to date. Here's another product that some people might be interested in, the sound quality is outstanding. Never heard anything as realistic as this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnaylfxGTnY


Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on March 31, 2023, 08:29:53 PM
LOL ;D ;D
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Ryszard Bieszczad on April 01, 2023, 09:51:42 AM
Polish presentation of Ketron Event in a music store
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-8CFwSC2m8
Ryszard
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on April 01, 2023, 12:25:42 PM
Nice demo. Too bad we can't see the display on the big screen due to the guys head in the way. If they're going to demo a keyboard, they really need to think about the world audience, not just the few people in the store.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ton37 on April 01, 2023, 02:25:15 PM
OK, bad video presentation . Oh boy, all those people with their smartphones, it seems a new human race (the seventh). Allthought I like the enthousiame of the keyboardist and the sound is very, very good!!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on April 01, 2023, 04:13:42 PM
I can't wait for Tony at Bonners to do a demo, I think he will really smash it with his demo and playing abilities.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on April 03, 2023, 12:33:23 AM
Bonners in the UK appear to have the Event in stock right now.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on April 03, 2023, 04:43:48 PM
It looks like the UK dealers are usually the first people who are receiving the first new arranger shipments, right ?
JH

Time now for Yamaha to respond :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Duffy on April 04, 2023, 03:54:51 PM
Yamaha have just updated YC Stage Keyboard series  FOR THE SECOND TIME whilst I have been hoping for a decent Hammond & Leslie for the Genos.
Their first update gave it a first class Hammond sound with realistic Leslie simulation and, with the new update, it gets 3 new Pianos, new EP's and other odds.

If they can give updates for the YC series, why can't they do the same for the Genos?
All I want is a Hammond & Leslie which actually sounds like one.

The original YC series Hammond was rubbish but they managed to put that right so, why are we waiting?
I think 6 years is long enough.

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: soundphase on April 05, 2023, 07:17:08 AM
If they can give updates for the YC series, why can't they do the same for the Genos?
To sell YC series to Genos users.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: AndrewKeyz on May 03, 2023, 02:19:45 AM
A 61 key Ketron Event is on its way.

https://www.dv247.com/en_GB/GBP/Ketron-EVENT-61/art-KEY0005802-000

Seems a bit of a lousy price difference / discount to opt for the smaller one at the moment. I guess people would only go for it if they absolutely need the compactness.

Bit strange there is still no Bonners demo from Tony. The Event seems to be out of stock there. Other stores seem to be getting the 61 key and the original 76 key back in stock in the next few weeks.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on May 03, 2023, 03:13:57 AM
Quote
If they can give updates for the YC series, why can't they do the same for the Genos?
That's called, "Shooting yourself in the foot." If Yamaha gave the Genos those new voices, I wouldn't even bother looking at Genos 2. Many other pro players may feel the same.

How Yamaha can provide such stellar orchestral voices, a half decent OS, and touch screen but such terrible primary voices is beyond me. Worse, when Genos 2 arrives, it will likely come with these voices upgraded but the price tag will be stupidly ridiculous. I'm considering my options at this time because I need really good B3 voices. The current ones are an embarrassment.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Duffy on May 03, 2023, 09:24:11 AM
That's called, "Shooting yourself in the foot." If Yamaha gave the Genos those new voices, I wouldn't even bother looking at Genos 2. Many other pro players may feel the same.

How Yamaha can provide such stellar orchestral voices, a half decent OS, and touch screen but such terrible primary voices is beyond me. Worse, when Genos 2 arrives, it will likely come with these voices upgraded but the price tag will be stupidly ridiculous. I'm considering my options at this time because I need really good B3 voices. The current ones are an embarrassment.


I get your meaning but, The YC voice upgrades were done a couple of years ago which means that Yamaha could have upgraded the Genos well over a year ago.
Although we have no idea, Yamaha knew definitely. that there was no new top of range board coming shortly and could have given us those voices as a goodwill gesture.
Fans would have appreciated the new voices but, by now, the novelty would have worn off and the fans would have been ready for the new Genos 2 from a company who had proved that they cared.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on May 03, 2023, 10:52:28 AM
@AndrewKeyz
-thank you for pointing on this news.

I'm pretty sure it has the same functionality as 76 keys version (as is the case with Korg PA5x).
When deciding between 61 and 76 keys Event, price sure plays no role, because they cost the same high price. One would expect, that at least because of marketing reasons, 61 key version would be symbolically cheaper. Event 76 key version is already substantially smaller than Yamaha and Korg and so I really see no reason to decide for 61 key version.

Yes, I know some managed to get Event... but why would I consider a keyboard that is never on stock? Since ever I can read "In stock within 1-2 weeks" (or months), which never happens. The same is true for Korg, though. I mean... I'm not buying an Lamborghini  ::)

@Lee Batchelor
I don't have Genos, so I can only talk about voices in SX700. My opinion is, that the same samples are used as a source, which are just differently executed (or "polished") -better on Genos of course, because it has more memory and more powerful hardware. Still, it's the source that determines fidelity (authenticity) of the sound. It's just a common sense that makes me thinking that way, because I can't imagine Yamaha would bother to record samples from the same instrument twice (one set for Genos and one for SX).

After saying that, I agree with you: Yamaha needs something better than just an "upgrade" in next arranger generation. And I don't only mean "new piano and sax".. complete voice set must be new. As it is now, I think that quite a lot of "main" voices are actually taken from XG/GM2 voices, with only different settings (effects) applied -because, as you said, some are just embarrassing.

Yes, I do believe that next Genos will actually be new arranger -it must be, because Yamaha has no choice.

Just sharing my thoughts,
Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on May 03, 2023, 12:27:47 PM
Great info guys. Thanks!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on May 03, 2023, 01:10:24 PM
A 61 key Ketron Event is on its way.

https://www.dv247.com/en_GB/GBP/Ketron-EVENT-61/art-KEY0005802-000

Seems a bit of a lousy price difference / discount to opt for the smaller one at the moment. I guess people would only go for it if they absolutely need the compactness.

Bit strange there is still no Bonners demo from Tony. The Event seems to be out of stock there. Other stores seem to be getting the 61 key and the original 76 key back in stock in the next few weeks.

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the post. I actually saw this last week but didn't bother posting it as I didn't think it was anything important as its the exact same keyboard but just 61 keys. This kind of disappointed me a little because they didn't do the same as the SD9 and SD60 (which I still own), whereby the SD60 is a 61 key version of the SD9 but also with speakers, and the amplification in the SD60 is tremendous, very powerful indeed (thing weighs a ton though!).

It looks like Ketron has gone down the Audya route where they created an Audya then Audya5 being the 61 key version but still without speakers. I think this may be because Ketron wants to show everybody that the Event is the true successor to the Audya and not the SD range, that's the sense I get anyway. I think Ketron will then make another new keyboard with speakers but still in the SD range, but I am only guessing.

Oh forgot to mention, I totally agree with you about the lack of demo from Bonners as before I purchased one from them I did ask if a Tony would make a demo and they said he would.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on May 03, 2023, 01:21:37 PM

After saying that, I agree with you: Yamaha needs something better than just an "upgrade" in next arranger generation. And I don't only mean "new piano and sax".. complete voice set must be new. As it is now, I think that quite a lot of "main" voices are actually taken from XG/GM2 voices, with only different settings (effects) applied -because, as you said, some are just embarrassing.

Yes, I do believe that next Genos will actually be new arranger -it must be, because Yamaha has no choice.

Just sharing my thoughts,


I completely agree with you on this and it's how I am seeing it as well. I can't see any other way really. It will be intriguing to see what they do though. They are a huge company with so much resource so the potential is certainly there.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on May 03, 2023, 02:59:53 PM
I'm confident Yamaha will release a block-buster in the Genos 2 but I fear the price will be so far out of reach due to many of the world's issues at the moment.

As a sidebar, I find that the money paid to musicians (where I work at least) is way below par. This restricts how much we can budget for a new keyboard.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on May 03, 2023, 03:05:18 PM

I am dreaming the Genos' successor will be a " NEW " arranger,  a significant difference compared to the latest models of the competition.
I am hoping it is not a dream but a fact. ;)


Hey Jeff,

I doubt it would be significantly different to what's just come out, don't forget Yamaha would have been working on it for a while now and not just started working on it after the Pa5x or Event was released so perhaps I think a better description would be "comparable to" rather than "significantly different". It may end up not even being too significantly different from the current Genos!!! Although I hope that's not the case. You'll just have to wait and see!

Are you considering buying one then?
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on May 03, 2023, 03:10:08 PM
I'm confident Yamaha will release a block-buster in the Genos 2 but I fear the price will be so far out of reach due to many of the world's issues at the moment.


You know that is a very good point you make, especially if it will indeed be a monster of a keyboard, Yamaha could also charge a pretty penny for it, I think you're correct. It will almost be like you'd be forced to trade your existing Genos to actually come close to affording one. However, if it is significantly different from the existing Genos whilst also retaining some backwards compatibility, I will pre order it immediately!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on May 03, 2023, 03:18:30 PM
Hey Danny :

Reportedly it is Ketron's intention to manufacture/add another new arranger ( in 2024 ? ) that would be lower in price than the Event 61n and 76n ( less bells and whistles ).
Not true or ... just a rumour ... I really do not know, sorry.  :P

Best wishes, JH

Well I think if Ketron are going to continue their trajectory, I don't think they would dump the SD series since the lower end (eg, SD7) is pretty much a mid-range that hasn't been replaced. The SD9/SD60 are flagships as is the Event so I would expect to see an Event-esq keyboard in an SD form with speakers and make it more affordable at around 2 and a half grand to replace the SD7. I would be surprised if they didn't.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on May 03, 2023, 03:43:32 PM

As far as Yamaha's new high end arranger is concerned : a much higher price ? ( comparable to the price increase of the CVP 900 serie ? ) :D :D :D

Best wishes, JH

I don't think anybody is able to truly say what the price would be, but I do agree with Lee that it could end up being a bit pricey. At the very least more than the other two recent flagships but maybe as much as a Pa5x 88 keys. Either way, if people want it they will buy one and find a way to buy it. If you are dreaming about such a keyboard then you must be wanting to replace your Tyros 4, maybe this will be the one for you !
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Graham UK on May 03, 2023, 06:55:51 PM
For many years I have owned top end arrangers from Yamaha...Korg...Roland.
I have alway dipped into the OS Menu of every keyboard to obtain its better sound.
Now I play a DGX670 and I can honestly say I'm getting as much playing pleasure as I did from the past previous expensive arrangers.
Keeping it simple can be better for small price output.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on May 03, 2023, 07:52:14 PM
Graham, what would you do in the Genos OS to improve the sound of the organs, e.pianos, and regular pianos? I find I'm maxed out. Ideas? Thanks...
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Graham UK on May 04, 2023, 09:44:25 AM
Lee. Sound as you know is so different to each person, we all hear differently.
I have been fortunate to work many years in sound.
On my DGX I always use my Ref Headphones (My preference)
Edit Master EQ in Small Amounts is the key.
Edit Master Compression (I use PUNCHY) ...Compression...Texture...Output & Set CMP To On. My DGX sounds vibrant.
Many 3rd party suggested adjustments are way over the top and can easily distort a keyboard pre-amp and output.
All keyboard brands provide a standard middle ground out of the box sound to enable the customer to set their own preferences but they never give guidance of what to adjust.
At Keyboard manufacturers demonstration people ask why does my keyboard at home not sound like that !.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on May 04, 2023, 11:25:08 AM

If we listen to the music, played on a high end Yamaha arranger by Peter Baartmans ( during a dealer's demo e.g. ), the sound quality of his instrument is always so good.
Why ?
I cannot answer that question.


Same as if you listen to demos of the Ketron Event by Bartek Krzeminski, the keyboard sounds simply astonishing and the keyboard comes with no amplification and speaker options either so you have to use it through external amplification. It's the way they set it up and record the audio.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on May 04, 2023, 01:25:52 PM
Hi Graham, Jeff, and Danny.

I thoroughly agree that professional live demos are sometimes processed off camera, likely through PEQ, compressors, and other processors. Baartmans is a stellar player but I can't help but believe he sometimes runs an additional audio prescore in background, which means the sound has been professionally enhanced. Yamaha uses their very best speakers and subs at these events, which adds to the clarity. In other words, what we hear at large demos is not achievable with the Genos alone.

The same thing happens with the Demo songs loaded onto the Genos. There are several MIDI tracks used to produce these songs. It can be done on the Genos MIDI recorder but good luck editing to that final audio stage.

Graham - I will try your suggestion of using the Punchy setting. Perhaps it will give some life to the B3s. I spent a few hours on the net last night looking at other keyboards I could add for better pianos, e.pianos, and B3s. I looked at Nord, Hammond, and Yamaha. Prices range from $2,500 to $4,000. I might wait to see what Genos 2 sounds like. If it works, I may be able to keep within that budget using my Genos as a trade.

Thanks guys!!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on May 04, 2023, 01:30:31 PM
Apparently arranger manufacturers are obliged ( for their own benefit ) to show the best of their newest baby.

Only professional audio equipment will be connected and all these arrangers are played by professional musicians to persuade their potential customers the latest model is the best ever made.

It is what it is.
That marketing tool will never change, I guess.


JH

Absolutely, but with the added bonus of the demonstrators themselves being exceptionally talented as well. I also thought that Marco Parisi demonstrating the Korgs is exceptional as well.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on May 04, 2023, 01:40:42 PM

The same thing happens with the Demo songs loaded onto the Genos. There are several MIDI tracks used to produce these songs. It can be done on the Genos MIDI recorder but good luck editing to that final audio stage.


Oh absolutely, I think this is far more noticeable in the older generation keyboards of the mid to late 80s until the mid 90s. Back in the day when I first got into playing keyboards the very first thing I used to show off the keyboard to someone was playing the demos because they seemed to sound so much more superior above the standard sounds and styles you selected, even if the demo were using the same styles. I remember the demos on the PSR9000 were really realistic and it wasn't until using a Tyros3 that I could say it had evened out a bit.

Nowadays as arrangers are so much more advanced we can just showcase the styles using the OTS settings is enough to wow people, but you're right, the demos still have that slight edge where you wonder how do I get that sounding like that!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: bpsafran on May 04, 2023, 02:44:02 PM
To understand the built-in demos it would be very useful if we could extract the midi files of those, to see the voice, controller and effect settings.  Is there any way to do that ?

Sam
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Ryszard Bieszczad on May 04, 2023, 07:18:36 PM
Another presentation of Event by Bartek Krzemiński - part 3.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7ghFgoXqtE
Regards
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: J. Larry on May 04, 2023, 08:04:06 PM
I watched Event Part 3, but it doesn’t convince me to give up my Yamaha.  Should Yamaha produce a new flagship, I’ll be curious the check out the styles closely.  How realistic will they be?  Do the style programmers alone decide on the final choice of instruments and mix of each style?  For realism, I’d hope that Yamaha would consult with experienced recording engineers, producers, or mastering personnel for decisions on panning, reverb/effects, default tempo etc. to reflect what they might do in an actual recording studio, given the style under consideration.     
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Ryszard Bieszczad on May 04, 2023, 08:42:55 PM
I also do not give up Tyros, which gives me a lot of satisfaction.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Oxford1035 on May 05, 2023, 02:10:02 AM
l have been to a few of Peter Baartmans concerts, and Peter is upfront and states he records additional tracks to enhance the performance.

Russ
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on May 05, 2023, 02:56:18 AM
l have been to a few of Peter Baartmans concerts, and Peter is upfront and states he records additional tracks to enhance the performance.
Russ
I thought so. He's still a stellar player but I think Yamaha should insist on him playing the raw Genos. That's borderline deceitful because many users don't realize he's using additional tracks.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on May 05, 2023, 09:19:18 AM
I watched Event Part 3, but it doesn’t convince me to give up my Yamaha.  Should Yamaha produce a new flagship, I’ll be curious the check out the styles closely.  How realistic will they be?  Do the style programmers alone decide on the final choice of instruments and mix of each style?  For realism, I’d hope that Yamaha would consult with experienced recording engineers, producers, or mastering personnel for decisions on panning, reverb/effects, default tempo etc. to reflect what they might do in an actual recording studio, given the style under consideration.     

Hello,

Why would someone want to give up their Yamaha anyway just because of another keyboard regardless? Unless one is a keyboard nut (or as Rikki always loves to say a Keyboard Junkie  ;D ) that has to have them all, then sticking one with brand should be the way to go regardless especially if someone has created a set up over many years and could easily port it across the new models from the same brand. I would expect nobody on this forum to have swapped from Yamaha to Korg or Ketron, I'd be very surprised if any have.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on May 05, 2023, 12:04:50 PM
It is also a public secret Peter B will receive the newest Yamaha high end arranger in June, July 2023 and will show it to the public at the end of 2023.   
As usual he needs approx. 3 months to find out all ins and outs ( even the weaknesses ! ) of the newest Yamaha arranger.
Hi Jeff. This is interesting and suggests that we could see a Genos 2 by late fall. How accurate do you think this idea is? Where did you hear this? Thanks...
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on May 05, 2023, 12:51:59 PM
If there is going to be a new launch it is usually shown at Glyn Maddens Yearly big Yamaha meeting where Martin Harris amongst other Yamaha demonstrators entertain us. 
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on May 05, 2023, 01:59:15 PM
Hey Jeff,

Sure I don't mind answering you questions but I will try and keep it brief as not to bore people!

Quote
"You have a lot arranger keyboards of most well known brands.
About more than 20 models, am I right ?
Are all of them arrangers?"

All are arrangers and are from most of the top brands, past and present. I can list them if you really want. In total it's about 20 or so but some I have lent out to my dad.

Quote
Are you a collector ( hobby ) or are you buying and selling them too ?

I am kind of a collector and it's mainly a hobby. I used to be really heavily into gaming and spent fortunes on games and consoles/handhelds but during the first lockdown which was when my keyboard collecting really started I found spending more time playing music much more rewarding than gaming and since then it's almost completely overtaken it as my only hobby I'd spend money on. I saw quite a few older models for sale, at good prices too, ones that I either completely missed out on in the past but really wanted to experience, or wanted back ones that I regretted selling, so the combination of the two ended up with these many keyboards! I don't plan in getting anymore until Yamaha's new arranger.

Quote
"What is your favourite brand, model and why ?
Are you playing daily ?"

This is difficult to answer because when having more than one of the flagships the opinion could change even daily! I can say that at the moment out of the Genos, Pa5x and Event I am using the Pa5x a little more but that's mainly because I am creating a songbook for all the songs I play which I hadn't got round to doing yet. I have already done this on the Genos. Again, it will take a whole new reply/topic to go through what I prefer on each of the three but I do have preferences about certain things on each one. I play almost every day except for when I work late, in which today is one of them unfortunately.

In the end I will eventually narrow them right down. I have 4 children who have expressed an interest in learning so I have reserved 4 models aside for them if they are serious about learning. Same goes for my sisters as well. I've already given my dad a few to use until he's sure which one's he wants to mainly use. So it's worked out well, I get to experience keyboards I've missed out and can then pass them onto family members if need be. I don't tend to sell unless I trade towards getting a new model, so for example depending on how the next Yamaha will turn out will depend what I do with the Genos, keep it, trade towards it, who knows!

Hope this answers the questions for you and wasn't too boring!!



 
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Oxford1035 on May 06, 2023, 01:15:21 AM


It is also a public secret Peter B will receive the newest Yamaha high end arranger in June, July 2023 and will show it to the public at the end of 2023.   
As usual he needs approx. 3 months to find out all ins and outs ( even the weaknesses ! ) of the newest Yamaha arranger.


l read somewhere that Peter has already been booked to perform around November time, which would tie in with the UK Yamaha event being held at the end of November. Glyn Madden replied to a readers post in the Yamaha club magazine that he thought we'd be in for a surprise at the event, and as Glyn has strong Yamaha ties l think we will indeed see a new TOTL in November, especially as by then it will be 6 years since the Genos was released.

Russ
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Oxford1035 on May 06, 2023, 01:17:42 AM
Hi Jeff. This is interesting and suggests that we could see a Genos 2 by late fall. How accurate do you think this idea is? Where did you hear this? Thanks...

Lee, see my reply to Jeff

Russ


Edit 2023-05-07 by overover: Added missing quote tag
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on May 06, 2023, 02:59:57 AM
Thanks Jeff and Russ. That's interesting news. Let's hope it's true!
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: john smies on May 08, 2023, 08:17:28 AM


While you guys are getting your knickers in a twist about the " Coming of Genos 2"  I would like to             refer you guys to the comments by Sokratis1974 , see following link and scroll down to his entry ( or read the full thread, most enlightning I think....).
To the best of my knowledge "Abacus" is from the UK and probably known here as he has a prediliction for Yamaha arrangers. His comments are rather absurd to put it mildly but as I mention the detailed reply by Sokrates speaks volumes !!!

http://www.synthzone.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/508217/VERY_good_Event_demos#Post508217

And while we are at it and after all this thread was started about the arrival of the new Ketron keyboard let me add what I mentioned on the Korg forum as well:

"... As you know I have been a staunch advocate of Korg arrangers and played on those for nigh on 20 years. I recently gave my old PA50sd away to our son and currently only own the new Ketron Event. Your comment (Worth) is correct and points to the one weakness that ketron will have to surmount to make this work and I have faith they will. I am referring to the "latency issue "....
Beyond that there are minor issues ( but look at the PA5X ) and personally I would wish ( and hope) there will be more new styles with Real Chords included. Also there should be a better market for new samples as its capacity to hold new samples is adequate.That having been said, most samples of natural instruments such as piano, accordeon, sax, violin, etc.etc. vary from "very good " to "excellent "and leave little to be desired . Even the pad and synths sounds carry a wide range of programmable sounds and unless you are deep into synthsounds etc. (for which you should add a workstation really) they are amply sufficient. I am not going to enter in a discussion whether the new Ketron is better or not than Yamaha and Korg. All I can say is that it is very innovative and challenging. And its form of realism is almost eerie. I mean if you are a vocalist and would want to imagine being backed by a real band , this one does the trick or comes closest imho.

Another issue raised by Englishman Abacus in the thread I mentioned yet again fails to hit the nail on the head completely. ( as does most of his comments). If for whatever reasons you set great store by reproducing a popsong in its original arrangement and as close to it as possible , you need songstyles then the best imho is Yamaha. ( of course you could also order a good backing tape or karaoke file and do the same, haha !!)

Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on May 09, 2023, 01:49:25 PM
John,

Thanks for sharing the response from Sokratis1974, it's a very well written and articulated reply from him and I agree with him entirely.

It is interesting though that Yamaha did attempt to go the Audio route but obviously changed their mind and would really like to know the official reason from them rather than our assumptions as to why.

This may sound a little controversial, but even Yamaha's audio styles don't come anywhere near as realistic as the Ketron's are and I really wanted to know why this was. It could be that the actual style's themselves that Yamaha used weren't always great to start with as a lot of them were from existing Midi versions of the style, that could be a reason but some were very good too such as the Cha Cha's, but still nowhere near Ketron as they still sounded CD like rather than live sounding. Of course it's just my own opinion and how I hear it when putting them side by side (eg, the Event along side the T5 or S975).
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Lee Batchelor on May 09, 2023, 02:53:30 PM
I found the biggest problem with Yamaha audio styles was the inability to edit them. They were very amateurish as well. They either need to go big with this concept or go home.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on May 09, 2023, 03:02:49 PM
I found the biggest problem with Yamaha audio styles was the inability to edit them. They were very amateurish as well. They either need to go big with this concept or go home.

That's a good way of putting it, and I think it indeed was because Yamaha seemed half hearted and added them in as a gesture rather than being serious about them because I'm sure they could have made them absolutely brilliant if wanting to go all out, which is why I said they didn't compare too well. I did also find it odd that Yamaha selected some quite average styles to use to showcase them, and as you say, you couldn't edit them, you couldn't even copy them into a user space as they were read only. Ketron does allow you to copy the audio styles for editing so it could have been done. It's a long shot but it would be good if Yamaha revisited this again although maybe most Yamaha users wouldn't want that.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: john smies on May 09, 2023, 04:00:28 PM

Hi Danny, Jeff,

Yes the contributions of Sokrates1974 are highly appreciated, he does know what he is talking about. I guess there is not much point in repeating myself all over again. There are NO poor top arranger keyboards. All three of them are basically stunning, each of them having its own merits and faults. Once again it comes down wether you are a live performer or not, whether you are a singer or not and whether you set great store by reproducing a popsong in its original arrangement or prefer making your own arrangments. ( generic versus song  styles......)

Incidentally, Ketron has just released a massive O.S. update for the Ketron Event, the second update in three months time. I guess Korg PA5X players would wish they could say the same for their arranger......

greeetings,
John
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on May 09, 2023, 04:24:30 PM

Incidentally, Ketron has just released a massive O.S. update for the Ketron Event, the second update in three months time. I guess Korg PA5X players would wish they could say the same for their arranger......

greeetings,
John

Thank you John, saw the notification from Ketron just now, I am going to update it later after work!

Yes, would be nice if Korg did the same so I can update my Pa5x as well!

PS, John do you know what the Event update includes? Any new styles as I heard there were going to be some new styles available soon as there was a demo of them recently.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: EileenL on May 09, 2023, 11:33:20 PM
Of course Genos styles can be edited like all other Yamaha keyboards. Have been doing it for years.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: john smies on May 10, 2023, 07:56:04 AM


Danny,
You beat me to it.....

As to this new O.S. update for the Ketron Event, I would like to share with you here the findings of an Italian musician who for months has been trying to flog his brand new Ketron Event because he was not satisfied with it. (Note this is a computer translation of the original text)  :

"....Finally I am happy with the fact that  ketron has updated the operating system, now I can say that at last WE HAVE A GREAT ARRANGER. I've been trying Event since 4 p.m. It has been reborn in every way, the operating system is excellent, it doesn't “make a crease”( ??), it sounds great, implemented and facilitated essential live functions, it sounds great, perfect styles, drums, nothing to say about it, and I say this quite frankly, they have miraculously changed the keyboard, I haven't found any more defects, I repeat, seven hours of tests, squeezed in all the essentials, it goes magnificently well, in spite of the envious and those who insinuated that my keyboard wasn't good. Congratulations to Ketron, finally the right redemption and the right prize for those who have spent so much money, now we can speak of an arranger without competition and without denial, perhaps the best at the moment for quality and ease of execution. Before we were in limbo now we are in paradise....."

I guess a fair number of Korg PA5x players will be quite envious of this progress....
As to the Yamaha players I would expect it does not change a thing. They will confidently and tenaciously be awaitng the Second Coming of.......  !!! :) :)

greetings,
John Smies
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on May 10, 2023, 08:34:29 AM
Dear John Smies Thank you very much for promoting my comment from Synthzone.
Danny1972 & Jeff thank you too for your kind words. So I would like to comment on the following:
I have learned when I talk about something, (let alone when I talk about music technology and especially about the Arranger Keyboards that I love), to say things that I know well and especially have experience in them.
I will never talk about something I don't know, so in this case (in Synthzone) I responded to the friend because he said some things that I thought were baseless. I also had to say something about Audio Styles because a (myth) has prevailed around them. In fact, I intend to make a video about this topic so that I can try to put some order into it.

Dear Colas Musique (Christian) I don't know which Post you are referring to about Edit in Genos Preset Style.
So since I have talked about this in a previous post, I would like to say that (at least I) of course I was not referring to modifications of the tempo type, voices as you mentioned but to something deeper.
I am referring to the fact that when we select a Preset Style in which we wish to make some modifications by recording some additional things, (in the Style Creator), then there is no option to record to the already existing Track (Bass, Chord, Pad, Phrase) because when we click on any Track and hold so that the red Record indicator lights up, then an option automatically appears telling you that the channel must be deleted in order to record something extra. And this is an indisputable fact and no one can dispute it because this is what is happening.
At least I was referring to this very bad limitation of Yamaha. And we should emphasize that this limitation only applies to Yamaha. No other company (Korg, Ketron) has this limitation. Of course, the company could make our lives easier here, if at least we could do this work through someone (daw – Cubase, Logic, Reaper, etc.) but unfortunately the work cannot be done right there either because Yamaha (unfortunately again) does not allow us (at least in some easy way) to create or edit separate versions (Maj, Min) in Intro/Ending, unlike (also here) with Korg & Ketron where someone can also create or modify a Preset Style very easily through Markers. So simple and unfortunately Yamaha is the only company that doesn't follow it.

Finally I would like to address Jeff's comment about whether I or anyone else is monitoring the Forums or groups in order to (report) Ketron.
The answer from my side is clear: YES.
But here we have to make something clear. My purpose is not to learn the problems (bugs, etc.) from the Forums or from the groups on Facebook because that is done by daily and diligent work on the instrument, but my purpose is mainly to be informed about something that I have not identified yet, as well as to collect user suggestions which could possibly be implemented, and believe me it all works very well, and the result is clear I think. Two OS Updates (yesterday's a big one) in the few months.
Regarding the new Styles that have already been promoted (coming soon video demo), I would like to say that these have already been launched for distribution, which the company will soon announce the distribution method. These Styles will include the one I created https://youtu.be/KWt1YMM_r3A
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on May 10, 2023, 10:22:38 AM
hi Christian,
...
I just read that the Genos Preset Styles cannot be edited or copied.
This is incorrect.
...
Changing tempo of preset style, or changing voice or volume of particular track, is not really style editing... I would call that adapting only. Editing style in true sense is changing key sequence (and key parameters) in particular tracks -and this can not be done with preset styles on Yamaha arrangers (at least not officially).

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on May 10, 2023, 04:26:28 PM
And I agree with you Jeff  :)
Yes, generally speaking, editing a style can mean anything about changing something in a style. However, when comparing capabilities of different keyboard brands/models, we shouldn't generalize things, because it can be misleading.

English is not my native language and so for me, terminology and semantic plays quite a big role in understanding. For example: many say they use "custom" style or voice, simply because they have changed some parameters -but for me, that's not custom voice or style. For me, custom means "handmade" (from scratch).

Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on May 10, 2023, 05:22:26 PM
Hi Bogdan,

That's true what you said where customising could mean different things to users, for example, I would say that anything that is not identical to the factory style or sound has been customised however big or small the customisation or editing was because it has been changed to suit a specific requirement that the original form doesn't provide. Maybe it depends on the available options you have at your disposable on the keyboard itself that could determine what one would class true editing or not, I don't know, but for me anything that is not the same as the original is customised I think.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: BogdanH on May 10, 2023, 06:03:21 PM
hi Danny,
So "anything that's not the same as original"... does that include increasing/decreasing voice volume for you?.. or for example, changing reverb from 10 to 15? Not that I'm arguing, but for me, things like that are only adjusting or adapting the voice (similar to changing style tempo).
Anyway, I'm not saying my way of thinking is the only right... it's just interesting how different we see things  :)

Greetings,
Bogdan
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on May 10, 2023, 06:27:04 PM
Hey Bogdan,

Yes I think it's probably true that users may class editing and customisation in different ways, but just how minor or substantial it was may not matter as long as it's different enough from the original. I don't think anybody's reasoning of what they'd consider something customised would be incorrect; as you rightly said everybody see's it differently. Maybe if something was edited extensively enough could be even classed as a brand new creation, certainly if it's created from scratch you could say it's brand new rather than customised maybe.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on May 10, 2023, 07:23:01 PM
@ Bogdan & Danny :

Last but not least ...
If Yamaha are launching some of the " older styles " in their newest arranger keyboard, Yamaha are mostly " upgrading " these older styles due to the newest technology of that new arranger, correct ?

JH

Hello Jeff :)

I would say the styles would be reworked or tweaked. Not sure if that’s the same thing as editing or upgrading if that’s what you mean ? I suppose it could be. So many variables !
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: usaraiya on May 16, 2023, 03:33:54 PM
Just an update to my Event Return story.
I received my refund check from AJ 3 months after I returned the KB, after numerous emails. He was in Italy for 2 months! And no one could sign and send me a check until he returned to the US!
I returned the KB within 4 days of its arrival but I had to shell out a 20% re-stocking fee ($1000) and get paid 3  months later, but I am glad that I received my money, EVENTually!!(Sorry, I couldn't help that), a mixed happy ending.
Moral of the story: I look forward to the new Genos, whenever it is released, and Yamaha's excellent customer service in contrast, as I am sure that Yamaha would never treat a customer with such disdain!

Uday
 :)
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on May 16, 2023, 05:20:40 PM
Just an update to my Event Return story.
I received my refund check from AJ 3 months after I returned the KB, after numerous emails. He was in Italy for 2 months! And no one could sign and send me a check until he returned to the US!
I returned it within 4 days of its arrival but I had to shell out a 20% re-stocking fee ($1000) and get paid 3  months later, but I am glad that I received my money, EVENTually!!(Sorry, I couldn't help that), a mixed happy ending.
Moral of the story: I look forward to the new Genos, whenever it is released, and Yamaha's excellent customer service in contrast, as I am sure that Yamaha would never treat a customer with such disdain!

Uday
 :)

Sorry to hear of your unfortunate experience, this is why I always would buy from trusted retailers, and I guess for myself I have been lucky since I would never have bought an Event if Bonners in the UK weren't stocking them, I would have just done without. I feel very assured that should I need any support from Bonners they would respond with the highest regard to customer service, as do others such as ePianos, A&C Hamilton, Keysound and so on.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Amwilburn on May 18, 2023, 06:37:17 PM
Sorry to hear of your unfortunate experience, this is why I always would buy from trusted retailers, and I guess for myself I have been lucky since I would never have bought an Event if Bonners in the UK weren't stocking them, I would have just done without. I feel very assured that should I need any support from Bonners they would respond with the highest regard to customer service, as do others such as ePianos, A&C Hamilton, Keysound and so on.

Hi Danny,

again this is one of the differences in the NA experience vs Europe: There is only 1 Ketron dealer in the USA, and 1 in Canada. Which for me, means driving about 4600km* each way just to try one out. Or buy without trying, and deal with restocking *and* shipping fees. :P

*fun fact, if you were to drive from one coast of Canada to the other, it's almost 7000km. By comparison, driving from the northernmost tip of the UK to the southernmost is about 850km!

Mark
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on May 19, 2023, 09:44:44 AM
Hi Danny,

again this is one of the differences in the NA experience vs Europe: There is only 1 Ketron dealer in the USA, and 1 in Canada. Which for me, means driving about 4600km* each way just to try one out. Or buy without trying, and deal with restocking *and* shipping fees. :P

*fun fact, if you were to drive from one coast of Canada to the other, it's almost 7000km. By comparison, driving from the northernmost tip of the UK to the southernmost is about 850km!

Mark

Yes indeed, it certainly sounds tricky to get one in NA, and it was usually as tricky to get a Ketron instrument in the UK as well until a couple of reputable dealers decided to stock Events which I found surprising and as mentioned the only reason I got one. Buying a Ketron instrument in the past before the Event was tricky, it took a while for an SD7 to be delivered from Italy, I think it was 2 or 3 months I can't remember as it was about 4 years ago now. I had ordered it from Ketron UK which was the only place to get Ketrons from but they still had to order them from Italy and didn't seem to have them in stock, unlike Bonners I got mine the next day.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Danny1972 on May 19, 2023, 11:57:29 AM

Their Event seems to be a nice high end arranger though but completely different ( maybe too complicated in use ? ) than
a Yamaha high end arranger.


Not necessarily. I have both and I find them at least equally easy to use where in some instances the Event is a bit easier.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: keynote on May 21, 2023, 10:32:56 PM
Just an update to my Event Return story.
I received my refund check from AJ 3 months after I returned the KB, after numerous emails. He was in Italy for 2 months! And no one could sign and send me a check until he returned to the US!
I returned the KB within 4 days of its arrival but I had to shell out a 20% re-stocking fee ($1000) and get paid 3  months later, but I am glad that I received my money, EVENTually!!(Sorry, I couldn't help that), a mixed happy ending.
Moral of the story: I look forward to the new Genos, whenever it is released, and Yamaha's excellent customer service in contrast, as I am sure that Yamaha would never treat a customer with such disdain!

Uday
 :)

AJ may have used that $1,000 to take his trip to Italy? There is no excuse for charging such a ridiculous restocking free especially since Uday only had the Event for a few days, and I'm sure when he returned it, it was as good as new. Treating customers with such disdain is a very good reason not to buy Ketron products. I notice AJ posts quite a bit over at the SynthZone BBS, but he doesn't post here on PSR Tutorial that I'm aware of. Perhaps Synthzoners don't critique Ketron products as much and maybe more of the members there actually own Ketron products. The Event is a really nice high-end arranger, btw. But Yamaha and Roland (Korg, not so much) make a sincere effort to treat their customers and consumers in general much better, in my opinion. I've had a beef with Ketron over the years after the Audya came out. I usually don't mince words and try to tell it like it is, but I think the folks at Ketron took it personally. In fact, years ago Ketron blocked my IP address, so I couldn't access its website. Perhaps the CEO or previous CEO or one of the lead designers of the Audya was part of the Italian Mafia? ;) Anyway, I digress. I like Italy. I like Giorgia Meloni the new Prime Minister of Italy. Furthermore, I like the Pope.  :)  And if Ketron ever gets its act together, so its products are readily available and easily accessible here in the USA, and customer support is no longer woefully lacking, and they quit charging an arm and a leg if you return something, then I could potentially warm up to the idea of purchasing one of their products. The ball is in Ketron's court. 🎾

All the best, Mike
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Sokratis1974 on June 17, 2023, 06:39:12 AM
Hey Sokratis :

Is there a particular reason why the Event has no (multi)pads like Yamaha and Korg ?
Are there alternatives now or ... might there be ( secret ) plans (multi)pads will be installed in the near future  ?

Plse advise. Many thanks :).
All the best,
JH
Hi Jeff.
I may be a partner in the company, but I'm not a designer, and I'm also not the one who makes the decisions about what an instrument will contain. I have certainly suggested features that the company accepted and implemented but nothing more. However there is an alternative scenario for MultiPad but since the engineers are still working on it I would not like to say more.
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: ugawoga on June 17, 2023, 09:05:22 AM
Genos is due for Discontinued

I am sure Yamaha would announce it being discontinued.
Give Yamaha a ring on the phone and they stay tight lipped.
Something is going on for sure
Wait for the whisleblower ;D
Title: Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
Post by: Al Ram on June 18, 2023, 06:45:43 PM
Discontinued does not mean much . . . . . still plays great .  . . .

thanks