PSR Tutorial Forum
Genos (12 Boards) => Genos - General => Topic started by: keynote on August 15, 2022, 01:18:39 AM
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Updated List of New Bugs Found on PA5X
▫️ For musicians that use lower such as strings, almost 100% of us do, you cannot turn of the pitch bender for the lower. It will bend with your sound on uppers. This function does not work.
▫️ Songbook entry will not start on intro if your intro is selected to begin with. It will play the selected variation for a measure THEN go to intro as you saved it. Also, you cannot select the songbook entry to the other player. Meaning if you’re on player 1, you may not select your songbook entry for player 2 and have it ready.
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🔻 Estimated converting time from .SET to .KST: 2 hours (500Mb set)
🔻 Loading same set on keyboard: 20-25 min
🔻 Pads of screen should not act as a play button. When clicking on a pad on the screen, it should open the menu for you to select another pad like on every previous model.
🔻 Fill-in button after half of measure with your style on will play only your drums from the fill-in while the variation drums and accompaniments play altogether.
🔻 Home Screen needs mixer at all times. For live performers, we need levels of our drums, bass, accompaniments, lower and uppers on the screen the whole time. We don’t have the time to look and switch pages for this.
🔻 If your style is on and you turn on a pad, if the pad is more than two measures long, it will only start on the second measure. Regardless of when you click the pad.
🔻 When selecting a different pad, after clicking 4 buttons and pages to get there, it takes you to factory pads and not where the original pad is on your user. When you do select another pad, the volume automatically goes to 100 and the FX send automatically goes to 40.
🔻 Selecting a style is not fast enough. After you click on a new style while playing, it will blink a few times before it selects it. Most of the time, this is way over a measure and a half of the current style playing. This is not ideal for live performers.
🔻 There is no way for you to select the second style and have it in sync with the first one even with tempo lock on. It’s humanly impossible. Your tempo will match but you cannot physically hit the second style perfectly on beat with your first one.
🔻 If your pads are on while your style is playing, as soon as you select a new style, your pads turn off instantly. Way before the new style even comes on.
🔻 Intro 1 is not supposed to play your lowers when selected. Your lowers should work for intro 2 but not for intro 1. There’s a reason for that. Some people's intro 1 plays a melody or plays different chords.
🔻 We should have a preference of not having the lists of styles, sounds and pads be in alphabetical order. People had these organized on the 4x into separate folders and pages.
🔻 If you are used to having a certain sound or drum kit you like on (user 1, page 3), you know it’s there 100% and you learn it that way. Not anymore, because everything is in alphabetical order, things will move every time you add a new sound, pad, style, song, drumkit, etc. complete disaster if you know where your things are.
🔻 Acc. 3 freezes on the first chord you hit instead of chords you are playing. Same goes with some bass on styles. I’m playing a different chord progression, acc. 3 is stuck on the first chord without changing.
🔻 Some styles I made have drums or percussion that is detuned using my pitch bender. It will not play the correct detune until the second measure of the style.
🔻 If you are using quarter scale, this is not the keyboard for you. It will switch on and off at random. It’s almost like every few seconds it will play your quarter tone and then go back to equal scale. Non-stop.
🔻 When making a new style, the menus for quantize, delete, velocity, cut and others are missing.
🔻 The bass should not be the first in order. Every keyboard since day 1 has it as follows….drums-percs-bass-acc1-acc2-acc3-acc4-acc5.
🔻 We need an option to customize your own keyboard. There are photos for every sound and drumkit next to it. You cannot select the photo you want when saving a new sound or style.
🔻 Website says we have 4GB and 8GB compressed but the keyboard shows we have 2.5GB. Not even close to what Korg is advertising on their website. If you think you're going to have 4GB of space when buying this keyboard, you’re going to be extremely upset to find out you have only 2.5GB of space.
🔻 There should be an option on the main Home Screen from the drop menu to show only one style instead of two. Not everyone will be using two styles since they can’t even sync them perfectly anyways. It would be nice if you hold shift and play on the style for it to sync with tempo and for it to start perfectly with the current style playing.
🔻 When playing a pad that is a loop, a slice from the loops starts when you press the button. It doesn’t start where the loop should resume naturally.
🔻 If you start with a pad that is a loop (without the style being on) and then turn on the style after, the pad will be off from the style by milliseconds. Your ear will catch it and you know it’s not perfectly on.
🔻 When you hit your fill button, the variation will not go to the first measure, regardless if you have it set to start on the first measure.
🔻 If you have a pad that is an accompaniment or guitar, it turns off when you turn off the memory for your chords.
🔻 There is no Kaoss.
🔻 There is no option for midi to style converter.
🔻 Locked sets will not work nor convert.
🔻 If you have a folder with only styles, you will not be able to open it and view any of them. It must be a set folder for it to convert to the the KST format.
🔻 No support for EC-5.
🔻 For existing style, cv length cannot be changed.
🔻 There are factory styles that are still on here from the pa80. The house, dance, techno are not from this century. They are indeed what they say they are but not anywhere near the year 2022. So when you select dance, it is dance, just not this year. More like 1998 dance.
🔻 The screen, when all the way down, is not flush with the rest of the keyboard. It is slightly off and sits a little higher.
🔻 On the 4x, we were given a limit of approx. 15000 samples for 1.5GB of space. You are now given approx. 30000 for 2.5GB of space. Even though Korg advertises it as it giving you 4GB.
🔻 Korg needs to stop changing the format of extensions for styles, sets, sounds, etc. The person buying the pa5x is 99.9% coming from a 4x. And that person also came from a 3x and so on. It was already annoying enough that you couldn’t load 3x sets on the 4x without loading the folders separately. Now it’s just a jumble mess for people trying to switch over to a keyboard they thought they were familiar with.
🔻 Let’s be honest, wood sidings with a metal body do not go. Ever. With anything.
🔻 If you are from the Balkans or the middle eastern region and have a locked USB set, it will not work on here.
Seems Korg released the Pa5x half-baked. But Korg is really astute in releasing OS updates so these issues should be resolved eventually. Famous last words, right? ;)
All the best,
Mike
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Seems to be the new standard for both KORG and YAMAHA
It was the same with Genos when it came out,
and Yamaha hasn't fixed all the problems yet,
I don't think they intend to do that either..
Otherwise if you just sit down and play with styles
Genos works well and sounds good..
Hope Genos II is ready from scratch with all features.
// Pierre
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Well I would never buy a Korg anyway but Wow what a load of faults it has already.
Genos had no where near as many faults and they were sorted very quickly. I will not be changing my dear old Genos for what seems like a real hash up. Thanks for the review. By the way a friend of mine did try one in his local shop and said although the ends look like wood they are plastic. Don't know how true this is.
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Comments from people who have bought both the Genos & the 5X would be more valuable, fair & balanced rather than the "Never Korg" hate rhetoric which is being spewed here.
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To be fair, how many of these "faults" would affect the average arranger player from day to day. I suspect everyone could go through that list and have a different opinion of whether each one matters or not.
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Comments from people who have bought both the Genos & the 5X would be more valuable, fair & balanced rather than the "Never Korg" hate rhetoric which is being spewed here.
Hear, hear, Just listen to Alios Muller on Youtube...a gifted player on both Genos and particularly the Pa5x
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We all use an arranger kb in different ways, & Bugs will always be addressed as they arise.....we all have different skill levels....most do not even use half of the features inside or ever read the manual....NEW does not mean better..... what YOU can make a instrument sound like in the end result is what matters....these days there is not much left to choose from in an arranger kb but what is out there is very good..... be happy in your choice and make great music with it....after all YOU play the instrument, it doesn't play YOU.
All the best
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As I said on another thread most of these issues would only be noticed by the ‘deep’ user. It doesn’t excuse it, but it is becoming normal in the world of very wide and deep functionality we increasingly see with electronic equipment. I have no doubt they will eventually correct most of the real bugs while some issues listed are more matter of opinion, eg wood vs simulated wood on the ends - you either like the look of don’t. It seems a good keyboard on most of the online demos, and no-one is forced to buy it if the bugs matter to you.
Mike
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To be fair, how many of these "faults" would affect the average arranger player from day to day. I suspect everyone could go through that list and have a different opinion of whether each one matters or not.
True, however as one evolves as a player, more of these advanced features become necessary. If they don't work right, then you got ripped off by purchasing a 5X. Everything needs to work perfectly for ALL players regardless of skill level. The less skilled payed just as much for their 5X as those who use all these advanced features, many of which are broken and should have been flagged before the release. These are not exceptional functions that couldn't be anticipated by the development team. They are primary functions that were obviously not tested properly. Yamaha has never had that length of a list in a first release.
I'll wait for G2 👍.
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All these issues are software issues, and all are fixable; it is a question of time. For all those who want to deep dive on day one, I suggest that they wait for a software update before purchasing, and others may buy it as is; trying to get familiar with the new system while waiting for an OS update, which will be released faster than one learns all the features of this KB.
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Don't think it has to do much with playing skill level, many outstanding players use little of the width of functions available, while some people whose playing seems quite basic are very deep into the functionality. Some are both.
I'm afraid 'everything has to work perfectly ' might be what we want, but its just not going to happen with most electronic/smart equipment. New I phones, iPads, new OS for computers - they all come out nowadays with tons of bugs. It's just the way it is. I don't think I have ever been in the line to be among the early users of anything for that very reason - I wait till they mature a bit.
Mike
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Comments from people who have bought both the Genos & the 5X would be more valuable, fair & balanced rather than the "Never Korg" hate rhetoric which is being spewed here.
Right, only a few reacts like that. We all know when the Genos 2/3 will arrive someday, the list will as long as it is for the Pa5x. Yammies are sometimes like people and even so predictable ... 😏
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Well I would never buy a Korg anyway but Wow what a load of faults it has already.
though really, I would say most of those things are not "faults" (i.e. bugs that need to be fixed), but rather things that don't work the way a particular user wants them to. A given user might well be able to come up with a similar list for Genos. Lack of seamless sound switching? Inability to re-order Favorites, or include User/Expansion sounds? Inability to have rotary effect and overdrive effect on a drawbar organ at the same time? Lack of tilt screen? etc.
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Hi,
The PA5X is 5 years younger than the Genos ( 2022 vs 2017 ).
A comparison of apples and oranges ?
IMHO, to give Yamaha a fair chance, I would prefer to compare the Genos' successor to Korg's newest high end arranger keyboard.
I am fully aware it might take another 9 -12 months ( or perhaps later, who knows ? ) before the Genos' successor will be available.
Best regards, JH
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Comments from people who have bought both the Genos & the 5X would be more valuable, fair & balanced rather than the "Never Korg" hate rhetoric which is being spewed here.
Seriously??? The 'Never Korg hate rhetoric' , has someone's feelings been hurt? I can't see any mention of 'hate' here. Let's try to have adult discussions.
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Dear Mike, you started this thread.
Just an important question, do you have a Korg pa5x and have you discovered errors yourself?
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Already bought and i love it with my genos 8)
Kind regards
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Dear Mike, you started this thread.
Just an important question, do you have a Korg pa5x and have you discovered errors yourself?
Nah, I think I'll wait until the G2 is released and compare the Pa5X to the Genos 2 and go from there. The Korg has a lot going for it in my opinion, especially the Seamless Sound Transition which is a game changer if you ask me. OTOH, Yamaha has had almost FIVE years to design, implement new features, and produce a Genos successor but not a peep so far from Yammie about any future release date. Korg did the same thing basically. It was pretty much kept under lock and key except the one that was stolen off a shipping lowery in Romania and then popped up online in a few mysterious videos several months ago, although I was unaware of those videos until just prior to Korg's official announcement, which stunned almost everyone I think.
Competition is ALWAYS a good thing. It keeps prices competitive especially in a flourishing economy. It keeps companies on their toes so as to provide even better products to consumers. Roland is missing the boat in my opinion. They finally got back in the Workstation keyboard game with the newest Fantom but I am dumbfounded they decided to quit the flagship arranger race. I guess they felt they couldn't produce top-notch arrangers that would compete against the heavyweights from Yamaha, Korg, and Ketron? Maybe they have a lot of brain-drain going on at Roland? Or perhaps they're just trying to cut back to save a buck. Roland at one point bought Cakewalk (Sonar) and then sold it shortly thereafter possibly because they needed the cash. Although maybe they'll also surprise us with a new flagship arranger somewhere down the road. 8) If they do it would have to be some kind of zinger to blow everything else out of the water. Time will tell.
All the best,
Mike
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Well, yes, that's a lot of bugs. But I also trust they'll rectify most quickly.
As for the wood paneling, yes, it's an odd aesthetic choice, but side by side the PA5x is *much* prettier than the Genos (I'll take a brushed aluminum/aluminium casing over matt textured plastic anyday looks wise... but then it costs you in weight).
For me, as much as I enjoyed the 15 minutes I spent with the PA5x, I *need* Registrations. And easy to program styles (I've programmed on both operating systems, Yamaha's is quicker; *however* I haven't tried writing styles on the Pa5x yet as our display models still haven't arrived). And the 2 weakest spots on the PA5x are the strings and brass (but those electric guitars were just *impressive*!) and anyone who's followed me on youtube knows, strings and brass are my bread and butter.
The most interesting point Mike made was the 2.5 gb of sample ram. For some people, that might be the only real reason to get a PA5x, but if it's actually *less* user area than the Genos, it puts Yamaha in a very relaxed position. And like I've also said before; there are literally hundreds of sample pack libraries available for the Genos. Korg has *very* few, because previously, it didn't matter how much sample space you had, there were only so many sample voice slots (and the way the operating system works, it's very easy to install 1 pack. But an absolute nightmare to install 2)
Mark
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Seriously??? The 'Never Korg hate rhetoric,' has someone's feelings been hurt? I can't see any mention of 'hate' here. Let's try to have adult discussions.
People who own both the Genos & Pa5X (like myself) are feeling great (who wouldn't?) and don't have any feelings hurt 8)
People who invoke "hurt feelings" and "have an adult conversation" have usually run out of any credible arguments to offer in a debate, so I understand if you support the "Genos Good, Korg Bad" mantra!
:D
Uday
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Yamaha have adopted a "platform plus updates" approach to both Montage and Genos. Many Yamaha customers complained about the need to buy an entirely new hardware keyboard in order to get new functionality. Yamaha stole a page from Korg by going to the platform plus updates approach.
The initial Genos release was five years ago (August 2017). Yamaha did provide a major 2.0 update in November 2019. Thus, they haven't been exactly idle! :) There have been a few minor updates since then.
Lest anyone forget what hit the world markets in 2020!!! 2020 and 2021 were not exactly ideal conditions for a new product launch. Ahem. :o The AKM factory fire hit many customers hard, including Yamaha. (I don't know what Korg use for DACs...)
Looking forward, I'm hopeful.
Peace to everyone -- pj
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Hi.
I'm pretty sure that Korg is going to adress the bugs and also some of the missing features users asking for in a couple of OS updates relatively quick.
But, as I've said before, if everyone want it to be like a copy of the PA4X, just keep the 4 and forget about the 5. It's as simple as that. :P
The more I look and listen at demos and videos, the more I want to add the PA5. The big problem is that so far it's no such items to grab at the stores.
But I have a active request, so maybe when snow falls and St.Claus have started up Rudolf, he'll bring a big packet for me as well, and Genos will get a new partner 8) ;D
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Thumbs down to Korg
Cheap saxes that sound like a clarinet!! Bah!!
Even the harmonica sounds tinny
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Thumbs down to Korg
Cheap saxes that sound like a clarinet!! Bah!!
Even the harmonica sounds tinny
I guess you know that age does something with humans hearing?
We don't always hear what we think we do........ ::) ;D ;D ;D
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I have had Korg instruments in the past and found them very fiddley to set up and store things as I wanted them. For me Yamaha gives me all I need to be creative and is so easy to use. Would not go back to Korg if you paid me. Do bare in mind this is a Yamaha forum as well before you say I am Korg bashing.
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Thumbs down to Korg
Cheap saxes that sound like a clarinet!! Bah!!
Even the harmonica sounds tinny
Being of a similar family (called "woodwind" by Yamaha) there will be some saxes that have a clarinet character anyway. But that doesn't mean the more mature richer sax sounds are missing from all the other selections on the KB. All it means is that the demoers so far have failed to play them in a way that demonstrates their finer qualities, and so frustratingly we can't judge what some of the sounds are really like, neither out of the box nor after editing.
The Genos SA2 alto and tenor saxes need editing to bring out some of the best in them and if you want to use them as a harmony group the editing needs to be more extensive and this is only likely to be achieved (IMO) after some time closely working with the keyboard at home. It's probably the same for Korg with the added advantage of deeper editing being available.
I don't like the list of bugs, but nevertheless being someone who enjoys creating sound setups on the keyboard and not just playing default sounds forever, I remain tempted :o
John
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Dear Mike,
As I thought you don't even own a Pa5x, you just got the bug list from a korg forum and added it to your topic.
What is said on forums is barely 50% true, owners don't even read the manual and the Pa5x manual is 920 pages long!!
Our Genos' bug list in the beginning was at least as long, and it's still not 70% resolved! What many do not know is that Yamaha owes its success from Tyros to the programmers who came over from Technics, which at that time was much further than Yamaha!!
There are many here who comment on the Pa5x and who haven't even seen and especially heard the keyboard in real life! Competition is always in the consumer's favour, so be happy that Korg has put a tough competitor for our Genos with the Pa5x. And hopefully one day Yamaha will wake up and they will finally stop selling plastic boxes “made in China” for more than €4000 where the name itself is not even properly applied to the buttons without the names fading!
I was able to play the Pa5x and left me a very good impression!
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The Genos Tenor Sax and Alto are as near as you can get with the real thing.
The Articulations are fantastic. 8)
Yes there are poor clarinet type ones but the Genos has the best.
Even the Technics KN 2000 had really good warm sax sounds. Second to none pre 2000.
My hearing is good for 71 year old and can easliy tell the difference in quality of sounds
It is only VST instruments that can out class Genos sound.
THe PAX5 is nowhere near the class of the Genos.
It's like comparing the Genos to a Rolf Harris Styleophone ;D ;D ;D
Why have a mini when you can have a Rolls Royce. ;) ;) ;D
Why have a beefburger when you can have steak 8) 8)
I suppose some would prefer "Sausages" !!! ::) ::) ::)
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This is what I mean by "Hate speech rhetoric"! Especially by someone who has not yet laid hands on a 5X.
By repeating the misinformation over & over again, hoping that one day it will be perceived as the truth if you repeat it often enough!
;D
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John - some have equally said that Genos piano sounds are not as good as Korg. It’s all nip and tuck.
You may love the sax sound on the Genos, and sax may be an important voice to you, just as piano is important to some people, but hardly anyone buys an arranger just based on a couple of the voices. There are many other considerations. Your Rolls Royce mini comparison is well OTT because it seems clear to most of us that the PaX5 is a very fine arranger, as is Genos. Neither is perfect, and it becomes a matter of individual opinion which is best. We pay our money, we make our choice.
Mike
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This is what I mean by "Hate speech rhetoric"! Especially by someone who has not yet laid hands on a 5X.
By repeating the misinformation over & over again, hoping that one day it will be perceived as the truth if you repeat it often enough!
;D
The English language is expressive and when used correctly can convey thoughts, ideas and emotions. In what deluded scenario do you picture the Korg PAX5? Is it an oppressed minority? Is it the wrong colour? Maybe the wrong sex? Maybe we can report this to the United Nations as a new form of 'Hate speech rhetoric'? So some people don't like the Korg keyboard, get over it.
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Wow, that seems to have struck a nerve!
Let's call this new KB a Korg Genos to calm you down!
One CAN love both the Genos & the 5X, you know!
;D
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One CAN love both the Genos & the 5X, you know!
+1 :)
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Indeed,one can love both the Genos & the Pa5x!
I had a Pa4x 76 Musikant and I sold it because the controls (software) were difficult compared to Genos,
and because the Pa5x was on the way.
Even the Pa4x was already a tough competitor for Genos, but not like Pa5x.
I'm not really waiting for a Genos 2, but if this one is again a plastic box with the same finish as Genos 1 then my choice will be made soon!!
PS: Yamaha think carefully!!
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Hi :
IMHO it must not be easy and even hard to play 2 high end arranger keyboards from two various manufacturers/competitors.
At my age their complete different working methodes seem to me very confusing and far too difficult to know all the details of them both.
I understand and respect people who consider these differences as a challenge but for me it would be a struggle instead of having fun. I am too old, I guess.
More than 22 years I am used to work with a Yamaha arranger keyboard. Why kill a winning horse ? Why looking for trouble ?
Even today there are many applications I am not familiar with yet.
There is still so much to learn for me.
Thanks for all your very useful help, Forum Members !
Thanks to our computer specialists I am able to make my own multipads, to edit my styles etc. etc.
All these Yamaha programs are custom made by them and ... free of charge !
These people are always there if I need some help. I am so grateful.
No doubt in my mind the competition is making a very good product, why not ... BUT ... there is absolutely no need for me to add / buy a competitive arranger. :)
Yamaha is my choice !
Best wishes, JH
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I get it when people have multiple complimentary keyboards, eg a digital piano and arranger, or synth and digital piano, -iave doe it myself. But not when they are almost duplicating each other. The differences in performance, voices etc are quite marginal. Just doesn't seem worth the trouble, especially since they have different operating systems to learn and confuse. Can it really matter that much that you like the sax on one a little better than the other, especially since with a little tweaking the difference would be hardly detectable to most ??
Mike
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Well I suppose posting a competitors details on a Yamaha site is asking for the answers some are giving. If we are that interested then surly we would look at the Korg forum or go onto you tube for information. Indeed some members may own both keyboards and are happy with both and good luck to them. Most of us here are quite happy with our Yamaha keyboards and that is why we visit this forum to help one another with how to get the best out of them.
I have nothing against Korg except the very poor treatment I got from the service department when I had mine. Can never say that about Yamaha they are tip top in this.
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But it’s not completely true Eileen is it … many of us are happy only until something better comes along. And that has been as much true for you as anyone, because you have always been among the first to upgrade when a new TOTL arranger came along from Yamaha. In your case you have a strong Yamaha brand loyalty, and of course that’s your choice, and seems to work well for you. But it’s not going to be the case for everyone. Most will change brands in an instant if it seems beneficial. And rightly so.
Mike
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Hi All
To start off with, just a quick word about myself.
I'm a Yamaha User (Genos) and more than happy with what I have for now.
Now to my point, with a couple of simple questions.
A] Why does any discussion about Korg invoke the negative response that it does. Surely as Musicians we are all interested in new features that are coming to market.
B] Why does nobody talk about some of the new features that the PA5X has, such as -:
1. Option to purchase 3 variations 61, 76 & 88 Note models.
2. Dual Style engines.
3. 16 Matrix assignable Pads.
4. Brushed aluminium casing with easy replaceable wooden end panels.
5. HD Colour Capacitive Tilting Screen. And HDMI Output.
6. Vastly improved interface.
7. Fully assignable response curves for Volume pedal.
8. Seamless Voice switching.
9. Improved editing features.
The original post lists dozens of Bugs. Although there are several as with all new keyboards, many are not bugs at all. they are simply features that work differently from what the user expected or what the user was hoping for. So come on guys give Korg a little credit for what they have achieved.
Regards
Bill
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Hi Bill,
There have been several threads about the 5X. I think the main theme is, "The 5X has 'this or that' and we hope the new Genos has those things as well." You're 100% right in that the 5X has some very much needed upgrades in any arranger. You'll find that 99% of us are still in favor of the Genos but also respect the new features Korg has brought to the table and are anxious to see Yamaha's response.
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Dear Bill,
thank you for your explanation.
I have also been playing on Genos since the end of 2017, of which I am very satisfied except for a number of points.
When talking well about a competitor, there are people who react like a devil out of a box, with sometimes very negative reactions, even though they have not even seen or heard the keyboard in real life.
This thread is about Korg's new flagship the Pa5x.
I have heard this live and played it myself and my opinion is that it is a fantastic keyboard with some new features that we can only dream of. Korg was already very close to Genos with the Pa4x.
At the moment there are still a few things to add to the software, I was told that by the end of this year korg will introduce the new version of their software.
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I often wonder if the Korg forum has people pushing and praising what Yamaha have achieved. Most of us here are mainly Yamaha owners on a Yamaha Forum and are happy with what we have. If we were not we would have changed to a different one by now.
There is nothing wrong with knowing what the competition is bringing out, but if we are interested there are plenty of places to find out about it other than the Genos section of the forum.
I first started of with Hammond organs. I then went to Tecnics and Yamaha organs.
When keyboards came along I had both flagship models from Tecnics and Yamaha.
This was a great combination and also Tecnics had some great styles which I converted to Yamaha and still use today.
I then had Roland keyboards and had great fun with the VA7 which was my first encounter with sound packs. I then had Korg but just did not like the operating system and the way you had to store things. This was so fiddly and I just did not take to it.
Now at my age I am happy to spend my remaining time with Yamaha and what ever comes along on the next one.
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"This is a Yamaha Forum - saying ..."
I think that these (Pa5x) discussions (also in relation to other brands) will keep popping up in the Yamaha forum because it has been decided not to make room for such a discussion to be 'legitimate', ie. streamline somewhat. That could have been solved very easily in my opinion by adding a forum section: something like: 'Yamaha and his competetors' or 'General Keyboards' or 'The Bar' or '.....' . Many branded forums already do this. You can then post anything from other brands there and the moderators can simply replace post, if they whish.
If one is not interested in it, one can simply skip that entire section, not read and/or not respond.
It doesn't matter to me, but it probably does make make this forum a bit clearer in this regard? Just my 2 cents.
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Ton, I think you meant that it keeps appearing under the Genos section. I believe they use that simply because it seems the most appropriate in this case. I think that is ok.
But I don’t think that is the problem some find objectionable. So to be clear, this website is focused on providing information to Yamaha arranger owners. The forum is is a fairly open discussion section, for people with similar interests, ie arrangers, particularly Yamaha arrangers.
I am a moderator on this forum but have no association with Yamaha, and to my knowledge, neither are any other moderators, or indeed the site owner. We have posting guidelines but they are mainly concerned with maintaining respectful discussion, while staying clear of contentious areas like politics, etc. There is no guideline which limits informed or interesting discussion of other arranger brands.
Mike
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To create a separate " Competition " Section is a Management's decision, IMO.
But I wonder if we really need such a section.
For the time being we have only one competitor and in the meantime ... most of us are well aware of the differences between the Genos ( 2017 ) and the new competitor's flagship ( 2022 ), I guess.
Now I am looking forward to be informed about the Genos' successor. More relevant, IMHO.
Best regards, JH
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Wow, that seems to have struck a nerve!
Let's call this new KB a Korg Genos to calm you down!
One CAN love both the Genos & the 5X, you know!
;D
My comments are supposed to be light hearted
Sorry " I will keep my Rolls Royce!!! you can have all the sausages" :) ;D 8)
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Good one, John! We can always count on you for a laugh or two.
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I often wonder if the Korg forum has people pushing and praising what Yamaha have achieved.
Once in a while some may do so, but when the latest news has calmed down, it's mostly about what goodies Genos (or others) have that would be worth add to PA, and vice versa.
Now and then we can see a sort of 'mine is better than yours' atitude, just as we occasionally may read clearly and between the lines here at PSR Tut as well. ;D ;D ;D
In other words, a lot of knowledgeable and helpful people that do as best they can to help eachother, exchange great ideas, solve problems and figure out solutions.
Very familiar to what we can see is going on here. :) 8)
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My comments are supposed to be light hearted
Sorry " I will keep my Rolls Royce!!! you can have all the sausages" :) ;D 8)
John, That comment was not meant for you!
And yes, I'll enjoy the "bangers" & mash!
:)
Uday
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I don’t see any issue to talk about features and sounds we find interesting on other keyboards, and would like to have on our Yamaha engine, here. The forum is administrated by some people (including moderators) who are the only ones who finally decide the content they accept or not (including long threads that endlessly discuss about the forum content itself)
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Ton, I think you meant that it keeps appearing under the Genos section. I believe they use that simply because it seems the most appropriate in this case. I think that is ok.
But I don’t think that is the problem some find objectionable. So to be clear, this website is focused on providing information to Yamaha arranger owners. The forum is is a fairly open discussion section, for people with similar interests, ie arrangers, particularly Yamaha arrangers.
I am a moderator on this forum but have no association with Yamaha, and to my knowledge, neither are any other moderators, or indeed the site owner. We have posting guidelines but they are mainly concerned with maintaining respectful discussion, while staying clear of contentious areas like politics, etc. There is no guideline which limits informed or interesting discussion of other arranger brands.
Mike
Thanks for explaining this clearly, Mike. So keep going, dear forum members. I find the discussion about the Pa5x (sometimes in relation to the current Genos) interesting, especially when it comes to innovations that can take the keyboard player (technically and practically) to a higher level. If Yamaha is watching, they can learn something from it and use it in the new Genos. In fact, the content of these discussions has come to resemble some sort of wish list, in addition to the already existing wish list on this forum. In retrospect it will become clear how much we were wrong ;)
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I hope Yamaha are giving a small tip of their new high end arranger keyboard's plans soon.
There is no time to lose, IMO.
Best regards, JH
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I hope Yamaha are giving a small tip of their new high end arranger keyboard's plans soon.
There is no time to lose, IMO.
Yamaha needs some time to examine the PA5X thoroughly, so that they sort out what is worth carrying forward in a Geno's successor. ;)
We just have to wait and see, patience is a virtue they say. ;D
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Hi Gunnar :
Thank you for your reply. :)
It is hard to believe for me a company like Yamaha needs to examine the PA5X's new features first before they come up with a new arranger. 8)
As of the year 2002 up to now Yamaha have been #1 Arranger Keyboard's World Leader.
I strongly believe they want to keep that position for many years to come.
For many years almost all musicians want(ed) to have a Yamaha, right ?
Their SFF2 styles are so famous and unique.
They have such a rich styles collection no other manufacturer can offer.
I would not be surprised their new high end baby will be unique ( again ! ).
Their customers' messages are well understood, I guess.
Some fast and good news from Yamaha would be very welcome though !
Best regards, JH
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I don't for one minute think that Yamaha need to look for idea's from what is on the new Korg
There is a Yamaha site that invites idea's of what people would like to see and many members on here are posting exactly what they post here on there so you can't say that Yamaha are not seeing these.
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It is hard to believe for me a company like Yamaha needs to examine the PA5X's new features first before they come up with a new arranger.
well it’s not that hard really most companies look at their competitors, no matter what the product, if you think Sainsbury, Tesco, Asda, Morrisons don’t look at what each other are doing why do they have Tv advert’s stating the best prices and products and comparing?
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Of course they will look at the PaX5. I have a lot of development experience and have no doubt that the Korg product would be a primary talking point inside Yamaha since the day it appeared. They will be looking at everything…..the customer reaction, the appearance, the key action, the build quality, pricing strategy, and all the functional changes. It would be normal. And my guess is they are probably quite impressed by what they see. Worried - probably not, but definitely paying attention.
Mike
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Hey Del B :
All companies are comparing competitors ' pricing and finished product spec's.
Korg and Yamaha are not an exception. I agree. Both need advertising, promotion and distribution to market their products.
Both companies know each other very well. See their present/historical interrelationship.
They have almost the same (export) customers, IMO.
However, I have no idea how their local Japanese distribution, marketing and sales are organized.
But as far as research, innovation and development of new products are concerned, I believe Yamaha, being the Arranger Keyboard World Leader, do not need any direct competitive help to find out what endusers want.
Best regards, JH
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Of course they will look at the PaX5. I have a lot of development experience and have no doubt that the Korg product would be a primary talking point inside Yamaha since the day it appeared. They will be looking at everything…..the customer reaction, the appearance, the key action, the build quality, pricing strategy, and all the functional changes. It would be normal. And my guess is they are probably quite impressed by what they see. Worried - probably not, but definitely paying attention.
Mike
Absolutely Mike I agree and it would not surprise me if Yamaha had a few PaX5 in their factory stripped down :)
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Of course Companies will buy competitors' products from one of their own retailers .
I know this because being involved with Speaker manufacture, we did just that to be able to study every product from our competitors.
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Agree Graham. Dismissing competitors products as not worth considering is the kind of arrogant thinking that starts technology leaders down the slippery slope. Top companies like Yamaha do not make this mistake.
I spent more than 25 years responsible for driving multi million dollar development investment decisions, and knowledge of what competitors were doing was always a huge part of the final decision making, and often the biggest single factor in getting board approval for a big development investment.
Mike
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Hi Bill,
There have been several threads about the 5X. I think the main theme is, "The 5X has 'this or that' and we hope the new Genos has those things as well." You're 100% right in that the 5X has some very much needed upgrades in any arranger. You'll find that 99% of us are still in favor of the Genos but also respect the new features Korg has brought to the table and are anxious to see Yamaha's response.
You can go down to the pub and get a nice pint of 5X ;D
I imagine that what Yamaha would also say!! ::) :P :)
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The Japanese are notorious for reverse engineering a competitor's product, finding out what they did right and wrong, fixing it, seeking existing customer wants, and then producing a superior product.
I had a friend who owned a music store back in the 70s and 80s. He was a huge Yamaha dealer. Yamaha invited him to the plant in Japan to receive a sales award and a factory tour. There was one very large room that he accidently wandered into. It was filled with every dual manual organ produced by every company back to the 50s. The organs were all taken apart so that the Yamaha folks could see what worked and what needed improvement. I owned a few Yamaha dual manual organs before going the Arranger route. They sounded great, had very innovative features, and were at a decent price point.
Yes, you can rest assured Yamaha has their eyeballs on the 5X and will have improved on it in the G2. They'll also analyze the things we want and incorporate many of those ideas.
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Yes Lee you are right there. We all know they will cater to there Yamaha players to the best of there ability. Some idea's from users will find there way into a new flag ship but only sensible and possible one's. I know some will say oh they could do this and do that and it will only cost a couple of pounds but they don't live in the real world.
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Hi Lee :
Thank you for sharing this very interesting experience of your friend at Yamaha Japan. :)
As far as new software is concerned Yamaha will find allround support from their 100% owned ( since 2002 ) company Steinberg ( Cubase e.g. ) / Germany.
The Genos2 will surely bring all what customers are expecting today. ;)
Best regards, JH
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Thanks Jeff and Eileen. One thing is certain - Yamaha has never disappointed its clients through new releases. Some of the new models only had medium upgrades. For example, in the later Tyros keyboards, there wasn't a gigantic leap, which is how I think the Genos was conceived. Yamaha said they needed "something ground-breaking." They gave us just that in the Genos. They will do the same in G2, now that there's a decent player out there called the PA5X.
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You are welcome, Lee !
The competitor launched a nice arranger keyboard. I agree.
BUT ...
Yamaha will introduce a Genos' successor that will be uniqe and
impress the entire Arranger Keyboard World like in 2002 when their
Tyros1 landed on Earth. :)
Kind regards, JH
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Well I suppose posting a competitors details on a Yamaha site is asking for the answers some are giving. If we are that interested then surly we would look at the Korg forum or go onto you tube for information. Indeed some members may own both keyboards and are happy with both and good luck to them. Most of us here are quite happy with our Yamaha keyboards and that is why we visit this forum to help one another with how to get the best out of them.
I have nothing against Korg except the very poor treatment I got from the service department when I had mine. Can never say that about Yamaha they are tip top in this.
here here Eileen well said
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The Genos Tenor Sax and Alto are as near as you can get with the real thing.
The Articulations are fantastic. 8)
Yes there are poor clarinet type ones but the Genos has the best.
Even the Technics KN 2000 had really good warm sax sounds. Second to none pre 2000.
My hearing is good for 71 year old and can easliy tell the difference in quality of sounds
It is only VST instruments that can out class Genos sound.
THe PAX5 is nowhere near the class of the Genos.
It's like comparing the Genos to a Rolf Harris Styleophone ;D ;D ;D
Why have a mini when you can have a Rolls Royce. ;) ;) ;D
Why have a beefburger when you can have steak 8) 8)
I suppose some would prefer "Sausages" !!! ::) ::) ::)
Think you must be deaf, the PA5x wipes the floor with the Genos, as soon as I can trade in my Tyros 5 then it won't be another plastic keyboard from Yamaha that never gets updates (Tyros 5 never got any updates even with its issues) but a Korg PA5x. Tried one and very impressed.
Look on YouTube for videos by Alois muller, he plays PA5x and Genos.
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Think you must be deaf, the PA5x wipes the floor with the Genos, as soon as I can trade in my Tyros 5 then it won't be another plastic keyboard from Yamaha that never gets updates (Tyros 5 never got any updates even with its issues) but a Korg PA5x. Tried one and very impressed.
Look on YouTube for videos by Alois muller, he plays PA5x and Genos.
you must be the one that is Deaf the Sax in Genos blowes Korg away by miles and Tyros 5 Had every update
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True the T5 didn't really get any updates; the Genos has had several remarkable ones (the PA4x had a pretty good update too). As for wipes the floor, I think you need to try it first. The Sax articulation in PA5x doesn't automatically switch from mono to polyphonic mode, meaning you have to *very* carefully let go of the original note at the exact right time when doing a gliss, etc.
On the other hand, I am well and truly impressed with the PA5x's piano sound, build quality, and keybed. But not being able to chain registrations is a bit of a deal breaker for me. But there are some really nice things about it. I'd say the drums are even a bit better, the (non pipe) organs are phenomenal too. But Articulations just don't work as hassle free.
Maybe with an update?
Mark
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Regarding some previous comments: Having 'been there, done it and quite literally got the t-shirt', I can say that even back in my days in R&D, there would be competitors' products in the factory. Go back far enough and they could simply copy the circuitry. Then along came custom components that would have to be reverse engineered - if possible.
But if a feature wasn't patented, R&D would try to find a way of recreating it - or a way of getting around the patent! Lowrey's AOC feature being a great example. All the companies knew how to make it work, and how to improve on it, but the patents were watertight. As soon as they expired, every company very quickly put their version of AOC onto organs and keyboards.
So yes, I've no doubt that Yamaha had a PA5X in the lab very quickly, and their staff and their dealers would be thinking about what features, sounds, styles and effects might work well on a new model.
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Come on guys, there is no better or best here. There is just subjective preference. We don’t need insults and statements of absolutes, when there is no absolute. It’s fair to say “I much prefer the Korg” but not to say “you must be deaf if you can’t hear that the Korg is miles better”
Mike
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Interesting comparison but their is room for both.
The Korg is an unfinished diamond at the moment, but with the new Instructional videos of Qui Robinez who has unlocked some features that show the potential of the keyboard.
I will reiterate previous comments the pianos are great especially layered, the strings are the best ive heard acoustic guitars are in line with Yamaha, electric, sax, clarinet, violins, Yamaha have a mellower richer sound. Drums are almost live and are easily fully programmable.
if korg fix the glitches it would in my opinion be the clear winner, but with a new arranger that must be on the horizon, using the technology of the korg and others, Yamaha may conclusively put the debate to rest due to their deep pockets.
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The Korg is an unfinished diamond at the moment, but with the new Instructional videos of Qui Robinez who has unlocked some features that show the potential of the keyboard.
if korg fix the glitches it would in my opinion be the clear winner, but with a new arranger that must be on the horizon, using the technology of the korg and others, Yamaha may conclusively put the debate to rest due to their deep pockets.
IMHO it is too early to compare apples and oranges ( yet ).
In November 2023 I expect a first Genos' successor demo will take place in the UK by Martin Harris and Peter Baartmans. Delivery : early 2024 ?
Then final comparisons can start, I guess.
Best regards, JH
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Meanwhile, I am enjoying the PSR-SX900 with almost all the features of the Genos at less than half the price! It is a wonderful machine.
Uday
:)
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Hey Uday :
I agree the SX900 is a very good, reliable arranger.
However, it is not a Genos though.🤪
JH
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Like I said, Jeff, "Meanwhile", i.e while waiting for a Genos!
Uday
:)
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On the other hand, I am well and truly impressed with the PA5x's piano sound, build quality, and keybed. But not being able to chain registrations is a bit of a deal breaker for me. But there are some really nice things about it. I'd say the drums are even a bit better, the (non pipe) organs are phenomenal too. But Articulations just don't work as hassle free.
Maybe with an update?
Mark
Hi Mark , I like the piano sounds on my PA5x also, but being a bit of a piano nut
who loves the sound of Yamaha piano , I splurged and bought myself the
Wavesart CFX 9ft Concert Grand sample library. wow. For solo playing, it is beautiful.
Normally don’t buy samples, but it was worth it.
That is where Yamaha does shine, with the registrations and being able to chain them. I suppose the closest thing Korg has got to it is the Songbook, but you can’t chain them. My PA5x/SX900 setup wouldn’t work without the registration sequencer.
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That is where Yamaha does shine, with the registrations and being able to chain them.
With smooth sound switch feature, it would even be better ....
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FYI - for those interested in the synth sounds of the PA5X.
Another great demo from QR showcasing the magnificent synth sounds of the PA5X.
https://youtu.be/EPOaP0ZibWk
Uday
:)
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Updated List of New Bugs Found on PA5X
▫️ For musicians that use lower such as strings, almost 100% of us do, you cannot turn of the pitch bender for the lower. It will bend with your sound on uppers. This function does not work.
▫️ .......
Mike
I have both Korg Pa5x and Genos and I agree with most of these comments. I am still waiting for update for my Korg PA5x because this keyboard has some good features that Genos does not have . but currently it is useless for me.(http://)
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I have both Korg Pa5x and Genos and I agree with most of these comments. I am still waiting for update for my Korg PA5x because this keyboard has some good features that Genos does not have . but currently it is useless for me.(http://)
Hi bluali,
I haven't followed the discussions here in detail regarding the pros/cons of the Korg Pa5X and Ketron Event versus the Genos. Why is your Pa5X "useless" to you with the current software version?
Best regards,
Chris
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FYI - for those interested in the synth sounds of the PA5X.
Another great demo from QR showcasing the magnificent synth sounds of the PA5X.
https://youtu.be/EPOaP0ZibWk
Uday
:)
Wow, thank you for this, it does sound incredible. I need to explore those sounds a bit more for myself. Thanks for sharing this :)
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Wow, thank you for this, it does sound incredible. I need to explore those sounds a bit more for myself. Thanks for sharing this :)
Thanks Uday for mentioning my video. I didn't post it over here because I was under the impression that a lot of people here are hating it when you talk about the features from a pa5x, so I would post mainly things over here about my yamaha genos. But there are a lot more pa5x videos now on my channel.
@danny1972, I can definitely advice to check the sound section of the pa5x and create your own new keyboard sets with them, there are so many new high quality sounds that you can combine to unique layered sounds that you can create really unique keyboard sets this way. Also every sound can be modified in an easy way with the macro edit mode (which is also directly available in a style so you can store it in a song registration). I've explained that macro edit mode starting at 15:00 minutes in the video.
The sound system is a big difference compared to the yamaha genos, there you also have some very basic editing features, but in the korg pax series you have a complete synthesizer on board that you can program. And you don't need an external program like YEM, you can do it all on the keyboard itself.
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Thanks Uday for mentioning my video. I didn't post it over here because I was under the impression that a lot of people here are hating it when you talk about the features from a pa5x, so I would post mainly things over here .
Hi Qui
The Yamaha crowd on the whole ,seem to be far more forgiving than the Korg crowd.
They don’t appear to be as forgiving about mentioning other brands.
I liked this one, song specific styles from midi files.
https://youtu.be/SURtgtsGT68
And the one on modifying styles
https://youtu.be/OCgm9t-tNxA
Some of this info I would tend to think would also apply to Yamaha. Might need to be done differently, but still a possibility?
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The Yamaha crowd on the whole ,seem to be far more forgiving than the Korg crowd.
They don’t appear to be as forgiving about mentioning other brands.
Hi Rikki :
It is hard to understand for me why people do argue about which arranger they are playing. :-*
We all have a certain preference and that should be respected.
I think it might be very useful to know much about the competition's pros and cons, the weaknesses and the strengths.
Personally, for more than 25 years now, I am a Yamaha arranger customer.
There is no reason for me to buy another brand nor to upgrade.
My good old Tyros4 might be old but ... so am I. ;)
All the best, JH
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Hi Jeff, yes , does make one wonder. I think it’s good to know what features / functions the different brands of arrangers have. One can make an informed choice ie do I stay with the brand I’m familiar with or does the other brand have functions that are better suited.
Or in your case, it does everything you want , so why bother changing😁.
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Well many years ago Korg shared the same factory at Milton Keynes here in the UK.
Now it is just Yamaha. I have been there quite a few times Have met many of the Yamaha teams over the years and they are the nicest people you would ever wish to meet.
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I see that the E-piano site here in UK is predicting whether or not The Genos 2 is a possibility.
They say they are keeping their ear to the ground, but hear no whispers yet or whoever they question is tight lipped.
They are say it could be a possibility for Christmas this year, but that means October really as it takes time to get orders in for Christmas as people spend that time of year.
it is just the line on their site that says ----
My Advice To You:
Therefore, my fellow Genos people, my advice to you is to spend lightly on your summer holidays, for the autumn might well bring you something you’ll want in your Christmas stocking.
I SAY NO SMOKE WITHOUT A FIRE!!! :)
The korg is not my cup 'o' tea :P
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Well many years ago Korg shared the same factory at Milton Keynes here in the UK.
Now it is just Yamaha. I have been there quite a few times Have met many of the Yamaha teams over the years and they are the nicest people you would ever wish to meet.
Hi Eileen,
Is this the same location as the Yamaha Kemble shop ? It was so long ago but it was where I purchased the PSR 8000, which was my first ever TOTL keyboard, memory is quite fuzzy but I think it was a store but I don’t know if the store still exists. I just remember having a great afternoon there and couldn’t wait to experience the 8000, the car ride home felt like it never ended lol !
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I SAY NO SMOKE WITHOUT A FIRE!!! :)
Hi John :
Do not worry ... you will be one of the first owners of the Genos' successor. A nice 2023 X-Mas present, I guess. ;)
Unless ... Eileen already pre-ordered one. ;) ;) ;)
JH
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People who own both the Genos & Pa5X (like myself) are feeling great (who wouldn't?) and don't have any feelings hurt 8)
People who invoke "hurt feelings" and "have an adult conversation" have usually run out of any credible arguments to offer in a debate, so I understand if you support the "Genos Good, Korg Bad" mantra!
:D hi Mark i have subscribed to your you on u tube what style did you use on castle on the hill :)
Uday
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Hi Guys :
Some members of this forum own both high end arrangers : the Genos and the PA5X.
What is the advantage for the player/user ?
Best wishes, JH
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Hi Jeff
Do you mean Ambassador Eileen, lol ;D
How can the Pax 5 be great if you cannot record straight into it's sequencer and change registrations to create a midi file.
For me i like to play the whole song so as to get that human feel and then do edits to tighten up.
I do know that evrything on the Pax is called something different, but hope everyone knows what i mean.
Like Lee says , the next Genos to work flawlessly with Cubase is a must and what i find really annoying is the flack that is left behind in a style. In Cubase you can see that note partials are all over the place and to have a clean style Cubase can do it, but it is time consuming and boring, it does make a **** of a difference to the ears.
In Cubase you do have a note delete. Have you noticed that you can hear notes in a style garble or glitch sometimes. In Functions you have a delete option where you choose the length and delete all en block, but still needs attention even after quantizing as gaps can appear.
It is all about the player hitting a fill or changing a registration a millisecond too late.
One day we all will be artificial Intelligence players when we all get chipped at birth ::) ;D "Exterminate"!! ;D :D
I find the now Genos does work great with Cubase, but certain things on the Genos could be better like seamless switching between registrations, fills and sounds, but you have to make everything the same volume level in registrations to get smoother transitions.
It does get tricky when you have to time a fill just right or you get nothing or a little glltch. I would also love a way of making styles easier.
I have noticed sometimes after playing a few songs that when you change to another song registration it does not set up and stays the same as the last. I just switch machine off and on again and it rights's itself.
Apart from that more space for your own samples and I would like a Silver Machine next as it would not show all the dust after 10 seconds of cleaning it. If it can go sideways through time , i would definitely would be interested
Terrible for someone who has Psoriasis ;D ::). "Out with the E45 or Farmology cream!" The pleasures of being an old flakey like me. :P.
it is not bad thankfully, but i have to clean my arm rest regularly on exec chair as i got it on my elbow ;D
If anyone has a miracle cure for it ,i want to be the first one to know.
All the Best
John
May be of Interest --
https://www.epianos.co.uk/heres-my-best-guess-when-a-yamaha-genos-2-will-be-launched/
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John, your use of the Genos is not mainstream. What percentage of the people buying an arranger care about studio level recording and complicated mixing /editing tools like Cubase - less than 5%.?? So why would Yamaha have that on their priorities?
I think we are seeing the Yamaha direction for arranger technology rolled out already in instruments like the CVP and the DGX. Or in very low cost instruments, which are both impulse buys and suitably priced for Asian markets. Not just my guess, Yamaha state this very clearly in their annual report.
Mike
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Hi John :
IMHO the arranger is not comparable to any other music instrument. One exception maybe : the synthesizer.
All other " traditional music instruments " like a piano, an organ, a guitar, a violin, drums etc. are, what I would call " real and natural " music instruments " where the input ( 95% ) of the musician is the most important factor.
In my perception the arranger is a stronly computer related " music device ".
The use and influence of software might be much more important than the personal knowledge and skills of the musician.
Maybe in the near future we do not longer need musicians to play an arranger ... only knobs and switches.
Personally I like the arranger very much to create backing tracks without the help of other people. I can do it on my own. :D
The use of styles is easy, the sound quality is great, the applications and possibilities are limitless and last but not least ...
the arranger is a superb toy for an old man like me. :D
Best wishes, JH
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Hi Guys :
Some members of this forum own both high end arrangers : the Genos and the PA5X.
What is the advantage for the player/user ?
Best wishes, JH
I own the pa5x and the yamaha genos, and you raise a fair question.
My opinion is that for 99 percent of the musicians one keyboard is more then enough, you don't need them both.
For me I want to have both, but i'm not an ordinary keyboard player, I have a lot of synths / workstations and other gear in my studio and for me the korg Keyboard series gives me that freedom of playing like you play with a band. The yamaha can't do it the way Korg can. That also means that the korg is a lot more difficult to learn and operate, but if you are looking for a keyboard which is more like a blend between a synthesizer / keyboard then korg is the way to go. You can do a lot on the korg that the yamaha simply isn't capable of, but to be honest, this applies more to the synthesis / programming side then the arranger side.
The yamaha genos is MUCH stronger in the area of the standard way of keyboard playing (playing covers with left hand chords and right hand melody), the Genos has much better song based styles, much more features for playing covers (the registrations method on a genos is absolutely fantastic). A better implementation of the multipads if you just want to assign them to wav files, and much easier to learn how to operate it.
So that's why I have them both. Whenever I just want to play covers then most of the time I use the Yamaha Genos. But as soon as I want to Jam with a band with full control over what that band does and how it sounds, then I use the Korg Pa5x (and previously I used the Pa4x).
So it's not a matter of which keyboard is better then the other, it's a matter of preference for what you look for in a keyboard. Personally I think that most people will like the Yamaha Genos more because most people are playing covers of famous song and the Yamaha keyboards do provide that, the korg doesn't have much song styles, although the Pa5x now has a section with famous song styles, but not as many as on the yamaha genos.
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John, your use of the Genos is not mainstream. What percentage of the people buying an arranger care about studio level recording and complicated mixing /editing tools like Cubase - less than 5%.?? So why would Yamaha have that on their priorities?
I think we are seeing the Yamaha direction for arranger technology rolled out already in instruments like the CVP and the DGX. Or in very low cost instruments, which are both impulse buys and suitably priced for Asian markets. Not just my guess, Yamaha state this very clearly in their annual report.
Mike
From Mike's post, "So why would Yamaha have that on their priorities?" Fair question. And Mike is right - probably 5% or less want to record the Genos into Cubase. I submit that if he's right, then Yamaha needs to modify their manual and promo materials by removing the "Recording into a DAW section" or at least provide a disclaimer like, "Should you be crazy enough to try recording the Genos onto a DAW, keep a healthy dose of pills or alcohol by your side because you'll be ready to kill somebody after about 30 minutes of trying and falling through all the trap doors."
My take-away from this is if Yamaha says it can be done, then it either:
1) Make it easy for those who want to.
2) Caution people that while its possible, you will likely go insane trying unless you're a Yamaha engineer.
3) Mention that you can do it but don't waste your time. It was a dumb idea to even suggest it. Buy a Montage instead.
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Hello Robinez :
I am following often your activities on YouTube.
You are a great player and very familiar with both high end arrangers.
Thank you for your interesting reply and very useful and wise comments.
Best wishes,
JH
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Hi Jeff,
Would you post the link to Robinez's YouTube videos? Thanks :).
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Hi Jeff,
Would you post the link to Robinez's YouTube videos? Thanks :).
here are some examples from my channel for the Genos and the Pa5x
Yamaha Genos
Sting - Fields of Gold
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnNzkwbdJ4c
Above and beyond - Small moments like this (with vocal on the multipad)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kef2qOquHzI
Blues Style Jam (created in the genos style creator)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y0viwIouDw
Korg Pa5X
Review and favorite features (skip to 03:19 for Sting - Fragile demo)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1R86vhLLk8
Angels Choir demo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9ExeYJprhs
Dance Style demo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khWSYWeKI2Q
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I will probably be called an old fuddy duddy but I buy a keyboard to play it and enjoy playing for others which I did for many years. Also played for many local shows. Have never been interested in getting a song to sound like the original. No point I can buy the CD.
Never yet heard bits and pieces or flack left behind in a style when listening to lots of performances made by all sorts of players from beginners to really professional players. Yamaha has that great ability to allow you to make the keyboard sound as you want it to with just a little time exploring what you have.
I am not interested in what you can do with the computer and music programmes want to know what I can do with just my keyboard.
Would not want to buy a keyboard that was full of this stuff and pay for what I will never use.
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We know.. ;), but luckily everone decides for themselves what one want to do and how.. as long as you'r a happy keyboarder ;)
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Yes, everyone makes their own decision. But Yamaha also makes its own decisions, and that is going to be based on what sells. And I bet Eileen’s statements apply to most arranger buyers.
Mike
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Yes, everyone makes their own decision. But Yamaha also makes its own decisions, and that is going to be based on what sells.
Mike
Would it be a right conclusion to say Yamaha keyboards are real plug-and-play arrangers and Korg's arrangers are not ?
JH
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Hello Danny,
Yamaha Milton Keynes is a very large building on an estate. They don't sell direct to the public and to my knowledge never have. I don't know of any shop on the estate.
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I suppose all keyboards can be classed as plug and play, but there are a lot of us that get great fun out of getting it how we want it ready for Gigs etc. Tweaking styles and voices is all part of the experience. Also creating your own multi pads.
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here are some examples from my channel for the Genos and the Pa5x
Yamaha Genos
Sting - Fields of Gold
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnNzkwbdJ4c
Above and beyond - Small moments like this (with vocal on the multipad)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kef2qOquHzI
Blues Style Jam (created in the genos style creator)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y0viwIouDw
Korg Pa5X
Review and favorite features (skip to 03:19 for Sting - Fragile demo)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1R86vhLLk8
Angels Choir demo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9ExeYJprhs
Dance Style demo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khWSYWeKI2Q
Thanks Robinez ;)!
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I will probably be called an old fuddy duddy but I buy a keyboard to play it and enjoy playing for others which I did for many years. Also played for many local shows. Have never been interested in getting a song to sound like the original. No point I can buy the CD.
Never yet heard bits and pieces or flack left behind in a style when listening to lots of performances made by all sorts of players from beginners to really professional players. Yamaha has that great ability to allow you to make the keyboard sound as you want it to with just a little time exploring what you have.
I am not interested in what you can do with the computer and music programmes want to know what I can do with just my keyboard.
Would not want to buy a keyboard that was full of this stuff and pay for what I will never use.
That doesn't make you a fuddy-duddy Eileen ;D. It just puts in the 95% class. That's a good place to be ;).
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What you've said Eileen is absolutely right.
I may be an old fuddy duddy too as I approach 77, but I do not want, and have zero interest in DAW's (aren't they things you walk through to get to another room)?
Or Synth (synthetic) type music or Garage music... it's where I keep my car.
The one and only time I connected my Tyros to a pc it never worked properly again... I won't be doing that in a hurry!
All this other noisy'stuff' is just superfluous.
Playing the keyboard I bought does it all for me, and as I've said before, if the next Yamaha offering turns out to be some beastly noise making conglomeration of Synth/DAW/Moog/ to wow over tanked up holidaymakers in Ibiza or Spain, it sure won't be finding me as a buyer.
Appreciate what you bought!
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Hi Divemaster :
Our generation is getting old and so is our music choice.
We have to accept that ... there is no other choice if we want the latest hard -, software, styles and voices.
On the other hand we are lucky we have our " old toys " yet ...
Best wishes, JH
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I don’t think it has that much to do with age. I have been a musician since I was a teenager. I want to play the instrument, not operate it.
There are people with other interests on these arrangers, - creating sounds, producing music - but I don’t think it’s a huge percentage. Most just want to play. Reading forums like this can be misleading because I believe the people who just want to play, post less, or don’t even bother to join forums. So it can give the impression that a lot of owners are into DAWs etc, when it is not true.
Mike
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Hi Divemaster :
Our generation is getting old and so is our music choice.
We have to accept that ... there is no other choice if we want the latest hard -, software, styles and voices.
On the other hand we are lucky we have our " old toys " yet ...
Best wishes, JH
here is my opinion about that.
It's why i'm a strong believer of that yamaha and korg have to modernize. The generation that is approaching for the keyboard market has their youth in the 90's and 2000. I really don't know anyone beneath 50 that is interested in the current keyboards. And let's face it, the yamaha genos and korg pa4x are still using the same styles as their original releases in 2001 and 2004. So that's more then 20 years more or less the same approach.
Sure there are some new styles and sounds and with the genos a touch screen was added and the registrations were added, but the basics are still the same. The same applies to the korg pax series. There isn't much difference between the korg pa1x and the korg pa4x. Korg did now start with a complete rewrite for the pa5x and it looks promising, but it's far from finished that will take years probably before all the new things are in there.
The music world has changed a lot over the past 20 years, the musical taste of people has drastically changed, the gear that can be used and the possibilities are changed a lot. The sound taste wall of sound, sidechain compression, the EDM influences and all those kind of tricks, it's all heavy used in the music in the past 20 years. And the upcoming generations are used to that sound.
For the current keyboard generation users this is not needed, they are happy with the current styles and sound. But you won't attract new younger users with it and to survive on the long term as a keyboard company you need that new generation users. I can also see it in my youtube analytics. Most people that are watching the keyboard videos are 55+.
So i'm curious what's yamaha going to come with. If the genos 2 is just a genos 1 with some new styles and a matrix pad than I doubt that, that approach will work.
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There are people with other interests on these arrangers, - creating sounds, producing music - but I don’t think it’s a huge percentage. Most just want to play. Reading forums like this can be misleading because I believe the people who just want to play, post less, or don’t even bother to join forums. So it can give the impression that a lot of owners are into DAWs etc, when it is not true.
I agree,
I also don't think that a lot of DAW users are into keyboards, they are using a midi keyboard (no sound) connected to their VST instruments. It's a very different audience with different kind of needs.
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. There isn't much difference between the korg pa1x and the korg pa4x.
Hi robinez,
Although I get the gist of your point in which you make some good ones, the one you made about the pa1x vs the pa4x is not quite accurate. I have a Pa1x, Pa2x, Pa4x and Pa5x and I can say there is so much difference between a Pa1x vs a Pa4x, especially if you're talking about the younger generation, the Pa4x has many exceptional EDM styles that absolutely couldn't be played even on a Pa3x let alone a Pa1x. On top of this, the last few bonusware packs that Korg released shows what the Korg can do to cater for this genre.
Also on a side note, didn't Yamaha attempt to do something specifically for the younger generation by creating the DJX and DJX2? I had the first one but I didn't like it as it didn't feel like a serious instrument but the intention was good. Maybe they could revisit something like that but actually make it sound realistic and include some of the modern features required for this type music.
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Hello Danny,
Yamaha Milton Keynes is a very large building on an estate. They don't sell direct to the public and to my knowledge never have. I don't know of any shop on the estate.
Thank you Eileen, yeah I don't think it was there I went but perhaps they had a Yamaha shop in Central Milton Keynes once but I can't remember much about it as it was so long ago around 1998 or 99. The last time I went in that shop was when they were showcasing the first Tyros but after that I think the shop must have moved or closed.
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here are some examples from my channel for the Genos and the Pa5x
Yamaha Genos
Sting - Fields of Gold
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnNzkwbdJ4c
Above and beyond - Small moments like this (with vocal on the multipad)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kef2qOquHzI
Blues Style Jam (created in the genos style creator)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y0viwIouDw
Korg Pa5X
Review and favorite features (skip to 03:19 for Sting - Fragile demo)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1R86vhLLk8
Angels Choir demo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9ExeYJprhs
Dance Style demo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khWSYWeKI2Q
Thanks for posting these, Robin!
1) both sound great
2) the Yamaha ensemble choir sounds are superior to the Korg ones; however, nobody seems to show the Korg solo vocal (like the ones from Genos Superior pack). Those are virtually identical.
3) Korg wins in electronic dance music (EDM). It's hard to convey over youtube, but there's a beefy thickness to the bass and kick that really hit you in the chest. Almost enough to use Korg EDM as a defibrillator!
Mark
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Hi :
Younger people have no much interest in
arrangers.
We all know why : price is mostly a problem for them
and most styles' genres are not suitable for " their " music genre.
They prefer to play piano's, synths and/or midi keyboards ... last but no least : the use of music software is very important for most of them.
What will be the answer of the arranger producers in the coming years ? Time will tell.
For younger musicians the present arranger is a music device made for older people.
Arranger producers are aware of this situation and it will not be easy to find a solution, IMHO.
JH
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This is pure speculation, as I don't know anything.
I think the new Genos will incorporate AI vocals whenever it's released or whatever it will be called. Yamaha already owns the VOCALOID software; it's on version 6 currently, which can be used to produce vocals using words that can be written and the melody you want, including tempo and key. This standalone software works incredibly well, and if it is a part of the new Genos, that will be one of a kind and maybe a game changer (blows the socks off you!), as someone has mentioned regarding the new Genos numerous times!
Uday
:)
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Hi :
Younger people have no much interest in
arrangers.
We all know why : price is mostly a problem for them
and most styles' genres are not suitable for " their " music genre.
They prefer to play piano's, synths and/or midi keyboards ... last but no least : the use of music software is very important for most of them.
What will be the answer of the arranger producers in the coming years ? Time will tell.
For younger musicians the present arranger is a music device made for older people.
Arranger producers are aware of this situation and it will not be easy to find a solution, IMHO.
JH
I am young and I love arrangers keyboards :)
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For younger musicians the present arranger is a music device made for older people. Arranger producers are aware of this situation and it will not be easy to find a solution
Jeff,
I would agree with this.
I just came from using a synth for a year to now using an arranger. Though it's hard to prove just by visiting online forums and without knowing the marketing demographics & sales data, my feeling is that younger do people gravitate more to DAWs, synths, software VST's and not to arrangers. Of course there are always lots of exceptions to generalizations about age.
One solution for arranger manufacturers & style content creators is to offer more selection of modern electronic music styles that appeal to younger musicians. Perhaps styles that go beyond the usual dance EDM, trance and all the usual ballroom, jazz styles from the last century. More sound synthesis capabilities in the Yamaha arrangers might bring over synth users as well. Sounds like the Korg arrangers already have more of that.
Rich
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The Genos was built from scratch i.e., the ground up, and was built more specifically for the younger generation of musicians. Yamaha did a good job with the Genos but of course there is always room for improvement. Authenticity of the musical instruments on a keyboard is the driving factor for most keyboard purchases. Sound is everything to musicians including keyboard players. If Yamaha has really produced or is in the process of producing a new Genos I think it will be directed at and marketed to the younger generation once again. That's fine with me because I'm still a kid at heart and as the saying goes age is just a number. Young people are making music more than ever I think. Yamaha, Korg, Roland, etc., they all want a piece of the action and competition is always a good thing. It will be interesting to see what Yamaha comes up with this time around. Remember, Yamaha created the YamahaSynth.com forum and the newer IdeaScale.com forum to get user input on what consumers want in future Yamaha keyboard and pro audio products. That in itself is encouraging because it demonstrates Yamaha has a vested interest in its customers and potential new customers in the products they design, build, and sell. With that in mind, if Yamaha does release a new TOTL arranger I think it will incorporate some or perhaps many of the suggested ideas that their customers have requested. Personally, I'd like to see LED lighted drawbars similar to the YC Stage keyboard. Motorized drawbars would be icing on the cake, but that probably won't be available this time around. 256 note polyphony across the entire range of the keyboard. A 61-key version would probably sell quite well too. A high-end external speaker system for both the 61-key version and the 76-key version. A tilting LCD screen with higher resolution. 16 Pad buttons on the right side of the keyboard with velocity sensitivity. VH3, S.Art3. Expansion capability with at least 8 Gigabytes of sample memory. My wishlist is longer, but you get my drift. ;) These are exciting times we're living in. Btw, have any of you heard the new Nord Stage 4? It's a stage piano, but that thing is a beast. I'm sure Yamaha has taken notice. If and when a new Montage arrives on the scene it will be interesting to see whether the new Montage+, etc., blows the Nord Stage 4 out of the water. If it does, it would be a major feat and a great accomplishment. And knowing Yamaha it might be released before year's end since the current Montage is out of stock everywhere you look. OTOH, lately I'm leaning more toward NAMM 2025 for the new Genos if indeed Yamaha is still making high-end arrangers. Remember, Roland quit making high-end arrangers after the G-70 which was released in 2005. Roland also quit making high-end workstations for eleven years after the Fantom G series that was released in 2008. Korg discontinued their flagship Kronos workstation yet not a peep from Korg about a new Flagship either. So you never know. Time will tell.
All the best, Mike
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I agree,
I also don't think that a lot of DAW users are into keyboards, they are using a midi keyboard (no sound) connected to their VST instruments. It's a very different audience with different kind of needs.
Hi Robinez
I think that for me the Genos is great for getting satisfying results with a daw such as Cubase and now i am using vst as well.
All a learn curve and takes a lot of time, but being retired i can be in "Back To The Future", Like Biffo cries out " I have got all the time in the world"!!!! :) :) 8) ;D
I am 72 but have always looked to the future and that keeps the brain cells going.
People say on this forum they are getting old and just want to play and that is fair enough but i do not hear much 60's and 70's music coming across from the baby boomers. It seems to me that the music is still in the 30's to 50's or
I am into bands like Camel,Floyd and 60's 70s rock/pop and i liked that band from Holland, The Pebbles. One for Jeff that.
Mackintosh --Let it rain. Classic 60's. 70's prog rock was unbeliveable in those times along with Tamla, Soul, ska, Latin rock from Santana. The variation was phenominal.
They were the happy days when everything was fun.
I like Jarresque music also and that comes in with your style of new age. This where vst can excel.
I am thinking of getting a medium sized control midi keyboard and have vst and the Genos running together as i am home based.
I do spend a lot of time practicing and get carried away for hours without noticing the time, but i have to get on with recording and learning which is all fun .
No matter what people say, music is fun and it is whatever your poison is.
I know when i go on about Cubase some say why, but it really compliments the Genos in my view.
Eileen said there is no flack in Genos Styles, but you only have to look at the piano roll to get the message.
Sometimes after recording on the Genos into the sequencer, i had noticed glitching bass where you get minute note partials scatterered all over a track. The same with all instrument tracks except the drum track. To me also i hear strange artifacts in string sounds that need the EQ.
If you just play and not take a lot of notice you will not hear it, but clearing a track of the flack makes a great difference and it can muddy things a little. Ok, It is me getting a little picky. Do you know what i mean.? I will keep plugging onwards. :P
You have some great music on the tube :) :) :) :)
Anyway time for coffee
All the best
John
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Well many years ago Korg shared the same factory at Milton Keynes here in the UK.
Now it is just Yamaha. I have been there quite a few times Have met many of the Yamaha teams over the years and they are the nicest people you would ever wish to meet.
Hi Eileen, sorry if that was in response to my post, ie Yamaha crowd vs Korg crowd , I was actually meaning the forums. More forgiving here talking about non Yamaha arrangers😊.
That’s nice to hear about the actual Yamaha teams, that they’re so nice.😀
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From Mike's post, "So why would Yamaha have that on their priorities?" Fair question. And Mike is right - probably 5% or less want to record the Genos into Cubase. I submit that if he's right, then Yamaha needs to modify their manual and promo materials by removing the "Recording into a DAW section" or at least provide a disclaimer like, "Should you be crazy enough to try recording the Genos onto a DAW, keep a healthy dose of pills or alcohol by your side because you'll be ready to kill somebody after about 30 minutes of trying and falling through all the trap doors."
My take-away from this is if Yamaha says it can be done, then it either:
1) Make it easy for those who want to.
2) Caution people that while its possible, you will likely go insane trying unless you're a Yamaha engineer.
3) Mention that you can do it but don't waste your time. It was a dumb idea to even suggest it. Buy a Montage instead.
Hi Guys, wondering why you wouldn’t just record backing in step time in onboard sequencer, save as a midi file then record additional tracks ie melody etc via the daw and do all your additional editing.
That’s how I record the .mid files for my Yamaha to Korg style conversions. The timing has to be perfect.
Or am I missing something 😊
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No matter what the marketing blurb says, I think the Genos was not primarily meant for the younger generation. Arrangers are aimed mainly (not totally but mainly) at people later in life who want to play a musical instrument. The arranger makes that dream possible. I strongly believe that much of the marketing blurb on Genos that appeared to be changing the appeal for arrangers to younger buyers, was mostly intended to make the typical older buyer feel they were buying an up to date instrument and not something for old fuddy duddys rather than actually changing the buyer demographic.
But the reason that so many play standards has less to do with age and more to do with playability. I have played keyboards all my life and regardless of the age of the player, traditional type standards just work better on solo piano type instruments. Yes, you can make other kinds of music on an arranger, but you generally have to ‘produce it’ rather than play it. And that’s not what most want to do.
And it’s a total myth about having to attract a younger generation to survive. Every generation finally becomes old! Not only that but because people are healthier and live longer, the older generation is the largest and constantly expanding marke segment. Not to mention that they also have most of the disposable income. They don’t have to change the typical buyer demographic to succeed.
Mike
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I have bought Korg PA5X last year before Christmas. I knew at that time that the OS is very poor and has a lot of bugs, missing functions, and so on. But I need it because some of the local music simply does not fit on my Genos. And that it because Yamaha does not update their Genos OS with the latest functionalities with which PSR-A5000 came. For those which does not know what new features has Yamaha which does not implements in Genos, please search for A5000 :)
Now, Korg PA5X, after its 1.1.0 OS update still have a lot of missing functions, comparing with PA4X. Korg forum is full of complains, and a lot of Korg users are angry of the missing functionalities. There are a lot of people which have sold their PA4X and bought PA5X and they cannot use them like PA4X because of the missing functionalities and bugs. Still having problems with conversion of the styles from previous keyboard, Intro1 is playing annoying, the CV table is not fully working, Style Editor (old recorder) it crashes sometimes and a lot of functionalities are missing, like copy/delete/transpose/quantise functions. Yes, I know, a lot of bugs. But still having the saving changes in play mode, seamless sound, the two style player with sync function, the menu which is aproximatelly like Genos, and a lot of good functions. The sound is great for some genre I sing, not for all. I've still using my Genos for almost all music I play on my band, but as I said, there are some type of genre I cannot play on Genos because Genos has a "warm" sound, and those type of songs need a more agresive sound, which Korg offer. For me, those two are the best choice I've had.
Regards,
Vali
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No matter what the marketing blurb says, I think the Genos was not primarily meant for the younger generation. Arrangers are aimed mainly (not totally but mainly) at people later in life who want to play a musical instrument. The arranger makes that dream possible. I strongly believe that much of the marketing blurb on Genos that appeared to be changing the appeal for arrangers to younger buyers, was mostly intended to make the typical older buyer feel they were buying an up to date instrument and not something for old fuddy duddys rather than actually changing the buyer demographic.
But the reason that so many play standards has less to do with age and more to do with playability. I have played keyboards all my life and regardless of the age of the player, traditional type standards just work better on solo piano type instruments. Yes, you can make other kinds of music on an arranger, but you generally have to ‘produce it’ rather than play it. And that’s not what most want to do.
Mike
Hey Mike :
According to your opinion the arranger market is mainly focused on older customers and their music genre,
am I right ?
Perhaps a very small group of young musicians ( 1% - 5% of the total young population ? ... I have no idea ... ) might buy such an arranger too if this group is in the financial position to buy such a music device.
What could be an ( affordable ) alternative for the other 95% - 99% ?
Best regards, JH
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Hi
The Genos is great for ideas and of course it can be used as a controller for vst instruments.
If people delve into effects and pan the music properly it is amazing the quality that comes from this machine.
If seamless switching is on the new Genos I would be more than happy.
If people combine the pads into a song it also lifts the exitement of a track and helps to fill out the backing or give great effects.
Another thing overlooked is the making of wave pads. Robinez put me on to Sample Robot and wow, you can make great SF2 samples very quicky for the Genos but they take a lot of gigabytes if to many keys are sampled.
Another thing that would please me . More memory for samples.
After all the next Genos will be a pretty penny.
It is all in the Genos, but has to be found like eg; three keys together to cut out the style and leave the drums playing.
Lots of practice leads to getting nuances from the sax and guitars to sounding realistic.
For me the Genos has it all and i am looking forward to this November in hope.
Yamaha are very helpful and have always helped me when i gave Milton Keynes a ring to solve little problems. As Eileen has said the tech department is great at communication with you and always willing to help. They will not spill any beans though lol!!! ;D
:) 8)
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Hey John :
How come the UK is almost the only region in the whole world where so many Yamaha customers have such a great and impressive Yamaha arranger support and service ?
We always have to deal with independant dealers and a few repair centres only. Not funny if one has an older arranger though.🧐
JH
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Hi Guys, wondering why you wouldn’t just record backing in step time in onboard sequencer, save as a midi file then record additional tracks ie melody etc via the daw and do all your additional editing.
That’s how I record the .mid files for my Yamaha to Korg style conversions. The timing has to be perfect.
Or am I missing something 😊
Step recording would work, except it's very time consuming and clunky on any arranger. It's even clunky in a DAW. During Covid when all the stage work evaporated, I decided to learn how to record my Genos into Cubase. After hours of trying to figure out how to do so, I was told by the fine members on this forum to record my MIDI tracks on the Genos, save them to a thumb drive, and then import them to Cubase. I did that and it worked like a charm. I dissolved the tracks so I could edit the instruments independently. That worked fine. Next, I wanted to add more Genos voices. That's when everything fell apart. I could record a new voice but on playback, it sounded like a monkey being let loose in a drumming supply store. All kinds of odd sounds played back. There's no where in the Cubase or Genos documentation that explains how to add tracks without this kind of issue on playback. In fact, there's no clear and concise documentation anywhere that does so. Of course, there are a few members here who could explain why it was happening and how to fix it but I kept running into trap doors. One minute it would work fine and the next, there would be yet another problem.
The moral of the story is, when a musician must spend hours figuring out how to record the Genos into a DAW and add more tracks without a gong show interrupting every five minutes, there's no room left for creativity. The lack of documentation is the other issue. I ended up using the Genos as a VERY expensive MIDI controller for VST instruments. I simply ran out of patience. Then, we have to listen to forum members declare that recording the Genos into a DAW doesn't matter because only 5% want to do that. In other words, we don't count. The thing is, that 5% all found a section in the manuals that said it was possible but Yamaha makes it nearly impossible and fails to explain how! If Yamaha is only concerned with the 95% who want to sit and play, then remove DAW recording from the promo materials and user manuals. If they want to leave that feature in the literature, then devote an entire section on how to do it!!!!!!! Stop leaving it to the users to fill in the blanks.
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Well Im sorry to say that I have gone to the dark side and purchased a Korg EK-50L Entertainer keyboard. Well actually Im not sorry as I think it is a wonderful keyboard for the price which is less than 1/8th the price of a Genos here in Australia. Yes it doesnt have all the bells and whistles and editing capabilities. The interface is a bit of a learning curve after using Yamaha keys for about 10 years but it doesnt require deep diving into menus to do what you want.
I still have my Genos and I hardly scratch the surface in the use of its capabilities. If over time I find the Korg meets my needs I may decide to sell and put some cash into my retirement account.
I have been looking for a battery powered keyboard for a while that is an arranger/workstation to go with my other battery powered equipment:
Korg EK-50L Entertainer - https://www.korg.com/au/products/synthesizers/ek_50_l/
LD Systems MAUI 5 Go x2 - https://www.ld-systems.com/en/Series/MAUI-Series/14020/MAUI-5-GO
Boss Gigcaster 8 - https://www.boss.info/global/products/gigcaster_8/
Boss GT1 Multi Effects for Guitar - https://www.boss.info/us/products/gt-1/
Murray
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..I think the Genos was not primarily meant for the younger generation. Arrangers are aimed mainly (not totally but mainly) at people later in life who want to play a musical instrument...
I would say, it's not matter of younger/older generation. Someone at age of 25 can play music (semi) professionally and he will just buy the keyboard that meets his needs. But for hobby, very few at that age are ready to shell out bigger amount of money for an arranger. And many times even if someone does that, keyboard usually ends up in some corner collecting dust. The problem is time... at younger age, besides full time working, one has other priorities -at least that was my experience.
I completely agree with the rest of the post.
@Lee Batchelor
Yes, it can be quite frustrating at trying to manage everything. Most of us just wish to play music and we can feel happy if we learned how to edit or make custom styles (the main advantage of an arranger). And as Mike mentioned, as soon you involve DAW deep enough, you actually start creating music instead of playing it. Additionaly, as you mentioned, we would also like to create custom voices, which is very difficult with (non) existing documentation... because "try-listen-try again" concept can be very time consuming.
Bogdan
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Hi Guys :
From the PA5X feedback I found here, I learned some people buy a PA5X additionally to their Genos' arranger, right ?
Both high end arrangers have a totally different OS ... Is it not too complicated to handle ? ???
For giggers it might be not so easy, right ?
They prefer to wait for the Genos' successor, IMO ;)
JH
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I have both of them and I tell you, Korg copied a lot of things from Genos for its PA5X. The menu looks very similar to Genos, so no, it's not difficult to handle both of them.
Regards,
Vali
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Hi Guys :
From the PA5X feedback I found here, I learned some people buy a PA5X additionally to their Genos' arranger, right ?
Both high end arrangers have a totally different OS ... Is it not too complicated to handle ? ???
For giggers it might be not so easy, right ?
They prefer to wait for the Genos' successor, IMO ;)
JH
Hi Jeff,
For me it's the other way around, I added the Genos to compliment the Pa5x to fill the gaps that Korg doesn't have. Having a Korg and Yamaha combo is killer. For the hobbyist, there isn't going to be much of an impact by the different combinations but I think for those who are professional and gig with their Genos or whatever, I don't think it's as easy to just swap things around based on the valuable time spent setting up the specific keyboard for a days work so it would make sense to upgrade to the closest model that's compatible to your current one. A pro may have a different opinion on this but I think if I was gigging I would be inclined to think this way. I know it's certainly true of my dad anyway.
The OS on both are different but do now have more in common than ever before unlike with previous Pa Korg models.
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I have both of them and I tell you, Korg copied a lot of things from Genos for its PA5X. The menu looks very similar to Genos, so no, it's not difficult to handle both of them.
Hey Vali :
I know you are performing a lot with your band. :)
Do you play both arrangers frequently during your performances ?
What are the pros and cons to " gig " with two different arrangers ?
I am surprised Korg copied the Genos in many aspects ...
Best regards, JH
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I am surprised Korg copied the Genos in many aspects ...
In my opinion korg didn't copy functions of the genos, what they did for the pa5x is to rewrite the Gui interface and in particularly the access to all the features. When you have experience with the Korg Pa4x you will recognise a lot of the 'older screens', but now they can be reached in a much easier way and the screens are simplified. In the Pa4x the functions of the buttons changed based on which screen you had in your display, now it's always the same, you enter the specific mode and the menu button gives you access to all the features for that specific mode.
Once you understand the new layout modifying styles and sounds goes so much quicker then on the pa4x. It's a big step forwards.
For instance, this evening I wanted to create a new style for the main theme of the Bladerunner movie. Just as a test i did this on the pa5x itself and not in cubase to see if i could understand why people are complaining so much about the style creation features at the moment. It took me 10 minutes and the complete style was done, it was so easy to do. I found it much harder on the pa4x to be honest.
what i did was:
- select the 80's free style to have a start with the sounds
- then removed all the chord variations from the parts
- then i added a 1 measure bassline
- then a 4 measure ACC1 line
- then a 2 measure ACC2 pad line
- and some extra parts for acc3, 4 and 5
- then i copied the drums from a different style to this style
- next i copied Variation 1 to variation 2, 3, and 4
- I created some new patterns of ACC1 to make the 4 variations different.
- the last part was some vangelis sound design to make it sound like the original (i already had my own vangelis sounds programmed on the pa5x, so it was just a matter of assigning them and do some FX programming).
That was all done within 10 minutes on the pa5x, And these kind of 'simple' styles can be done quite good in the current version, once you know your way around the pa5x interface.
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In my opinion korg didn't copy functions of the genos, what they did for the pa5x is to rewrite the Gui interface and in particularly the access to all the features. When you have experience with the Korg Pa4x you will recognise a lot of the 'older screens', but now they can be reached in a much easier way and the screens are simplified. In the Pa4x the functions of the buttons changed based on which screen you had in your display, now it's always the same, you enter the specific mode and the menu button gives you access to all the features for that specific mode.
Once you understand the new layout modifying styles and sounds goes so much quicker then on the pa4x. It's a big step forwards.
For instance, this evening I wanted to create a new style for the main theme of the Bladerunner movie. Just as a test i did this on the pa5x itself and not in cubase to see if i could understand why people are complaining so much about the style creation features at the moment. It took me 10 minutes and the complete style was done, it was so easy to do. I found it much harder on the pa4x to be honest.
what i did was:
- select the 80's free style to have a start with the sounds
- then removed all the chord variations from the parts
- then i added a 1 measure bassline
- then a 4 measure ACC1 line
- then a 2 measure ACC2 pad line
- and some extra parts for acc3, 4 and 5
- then i copied the drums from a different style to this style
- next i copied Variation 1 to variation 2, 3, and 4
- I created some new patterns of ACC1 to make the 4 variations different.
- the last part was some vangelis sound design to make it sound like the original (i already had my own vangelis sounds programmed on the pa5x, so it was just a matter of assigning them and do some FX programming).
That was all done within 10 minutes on the pa5x, And these kind of 'simple' styles can be done quite good in the current version, once you know your way around the pa5x interface.
I had a Pa600 and In my opinion the style creator of the Korg Pa keyboards is far superior than the Genos or even my CVP809.
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I had a Pa600 and In my opinion the style creator of the Korg Pa keyboards is far superior than the Genos or even my CVP809.
Hi Guys :
For the time being there are only 3 brands left that catch my attention : Ketron's Event, Korg's PA5X and last but not least the Yamaha's Genos' future successor ( unknown yet but hopefully available at the end of 2023 ).
All 3 brands are not better nor worse but different :
ALL DEPENDS ON THE NEEDS, personal PREFERENCES of the INDIVIDUAL ENDUSER.
BTW ...
I always like to be informed about all new features, comparisons of those 3 though. :)
After all these years and for many reasons Yamaha has always been my first and favourite choice.
To me Yamaha is very reliable and easy in use. :D
Perfect arrangers do not exist ( yet ) and improvements will always be necessary for computer related all in one music devices, IMHO.
Best wishes, JH
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@robinez, style selection is quite identical to Genos, Voice selection the same, effects now looks more like Genos than old PA series, with a nice graphical interface, they made the same thing like in Genos, as you can now use style from any device, no more limitations for the number of styles or the "slots" of voices, you can load as many as keyboard's memory allow. That's why I said they copied a lot of things from Genos. How about the left screen? Don't you think it was copied from Genos? 😁
Yes, they have some things more advanced than Genos has... Drums are separated in families, Kicks, Snares, Toms, Claps, Hits and so on, you can add or remove FX Inserts for each one of these families, according to the limitations. In Genos, if you add an Insert Effect to drum channel (Hall for example), ALL the elements will share the same values and parameters of the selected effect, which is bad as long as the Kick must be "out of the schema". It is like in the real life you mount all the microphones of the drum set to a mixer and you put a Hall effect POST mixer. Never you do like this. Each microphone must have its knob to add or remove the effect to that microphone.
@Jeff, you asked me about the Pros and Contra... I like the advanced way of doing the job on Korg, I like they let me to set the drums family in realtime, not in Style Creator, like Genos does. I like the possibility of saving all my parameters in styles and voice while I'm playing. As long as I'm not gigging only by myself, and I have vocalists, sax player, accordion player, I do only the backing job (accompaniament most of the time), which allows me to tweak the sound as long as I play. Using the same style for multiple songs, in some environment needs some adjustments, and the need of saving while playing is a great job that Korg did. Now, with the new interface, which is in my opinion more like Genos, is very easy to me to find things, tweak and save.
Contra: for now the OS is very limited comparing with PA4X. A lot of bugs, but even so, does not hinder my musical performance, only the building of styles or voices. I wait for the new version of Korg PA Manager soft which for the oldest keyboards from Korg it does a great job!
Anyway, I love my Genos's soft keyboard more than Korg's semi-weighted keyboard. I'm not a pianist, so that's why, probably 😁 But, you know, each user with his pleasure and his comfort, finally.
Regards,
Vali
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Hello Vali :
Herewith I would like to thank you for your very interesting personal input and comments.
With your experience and your arranger's knowledge I am very impressed to hear your opinion : the PA5X is more or less a copy of the almost 6 years old Genos but with important additional and deeper editing features, am I correct ?
in other words the PA5X is a nice all in one music device, if Korg is capable to repair many bugs and create " nicer " styles, am I right ?
If Yamaha should have the intention to add also these extensive editing features, the Genos' successor would be by far the #1 again after more than 20 years, right ?
However, one disadvantage might emerge for the home player and maybe also for the gigger :
the plug-and-play use of Yamaha's arrangers ... an important and unique advantage that always has made Yamaha's strongest position in the market, IMHO.
Best regards, JH
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Jeff, all your questions have single answer from me: Yes!
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If Yamaha should have the intention to add also these extensive editing features, the Genos' successor would be by far the #1 again after more than 20 years, right ?
Best regards, JH
Hi Jeff,
I don't think it's just about which one's got the most features but also the realism of certain sounds as well, for example for me as much as Genos has some absolutely outstanding sounds I still think Yamaha do need to slightly improve on the drums. Don't get me wrong, the Revo drums in the Genos and the samples in SX900 are very good indeed but I still don't think they sound as realistic as the others *yet* so this is the very FIRST thing I am going to look out for in the next Yamaha arranger. Korg kind of has been the other way around where I think the drums has always been one of Korg strongest points. Just my opinion of course.
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Hey Danny :
I agree with most of your comments but for now we do not know, as usual, what the Genos' successor will bring us.
In fact we even have not received any official confirmation from Yamaha a new Genos' successor will be launched though.
Personally I am convinced there will come a new high end Yamaha arranger at the end of this year but my belief is based on wishful thinking and hope only and not on demonstrable facts. :P
The only thing I can say : time will tell ... sorry ... ;)
Best wishes, JH
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Yes Jeff you are right only time will tell and for someone who dose not intend to have a new keyboard I am amazed you are still writing about it.
As for drums there again I think it is a matter of choice. I just love the brush styles on Genos as to me they are very realistic but to others they may not be. I do think Yamaha has a greater style choice than Korg though.
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As for drums there again I think it is a matter of choice. I just love the brush styles on Genos as to me they are very realistic but to others they may not be. I do think Yamaha has a greater style choice than Korg though.
Absolutely correct in terms of drums, it is completely a matter of taste and I think both have their strengths in certain areas. Don't get me wrong, the Genos when it comes to what you mentioned such as Jazz, Swing, Country, Ballroom these categories the drums sound totally fine on Genos. I think they just lack a bit in other areas like Dance (not EDM, more like Disco) and certainly in the Latins I thought Yamaha have always seemed to be a bit weak in this area for some reason. My opinion of course though.
The only thing I slightly would say about the amount of style choice is Yamaha doesn't have very many "unplugged" styles which is possibly the biggest reason what started me on the Korgs all those years ago, to this day I still believe there is no arranger that not only has as many Unplugged styles as Korg but as good as.
In terms of style choice, if you're talking about factory vs user than of course Yamaha is way ahead in user styles but I am discounting user styles in the comparison. I do think Korg's got a fantastic selection of ballads, even more in the Pa5x as lot of them are new and not from previous Pa. Some of them are breathtaking. I feel in the Genos that Yamaha may have reduced the amount as I sense a lack of them or at least they don't seem to stand out as much. I don't like how Yamaha have grouped the ballad styles in the Pop bank and some in the Easy listening, they should have kept it as a separate bank I think as it's a main category.
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At 2;00 in the video they talk about the DUAL sequencer that can play TWO styles at once
how many people would use this and what for ?..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2InFUgORHEo&t=383s
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At 2;00 in the video they talk about the DUAL sequencer that can play TWO styles at once
how many people would use this and what for ?..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2InFUgORHEo&t=383s
I use it for auditioning purposes when creating new styles (see 1.50 in my tutorial below) And I use it a lot for adding Acapella vocals to my styles to combine them.
skip to 1.50 for the player 2 examples when creating new styles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JCaKdfEUFk
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At 1:39 they talk about the DUAL sequencer that can play TWO styles at once
how many people would use this and what for?..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2InFUgORHEo&t=383s
Hello Donny, absolutely great you mentioned this as its a feature I do use occasionally & the results are superb. It's great for mixing a Pop style with Latins, or Ballads with Dance it really works very well. You do have to experiment a bit as you can't just pick any old style and smash them together, it's really more suitable if you find songs that you can play to more than one type of musical style, then it really shines switching between both. Great feature indeed.
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Danny if I never played either the Genos or Pa5x I'd have to lean to the Korg just for the extensive professional features it has onboard which are certainly amazing ....... however, would I really use most of them in my playing?...That said Sound wise & style availability, support etc, I still to my ears enjoy playing a Genos. If Yamaha ever decides to release a Genos 2 & added a TILT Up Display, updated the Setlist features to List all formats openly sty,mid,mp3,wav, to just scroll thru without all the extra button pushes (eg: Korg Songbook) and TC Helicon Vocal harmony for much better tracking (I am a singer/player also) I would personally go with the Genos to satisfy my needs as an arranger player singer.
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Danny if I never played either the Genos or Pa5x I'd have to lean to the Korg just for the extensive professional features it has onboard which are certainly amazing ....... however, would I really use most of them in my playing?...That said Sound wise & style availability, support etc, I still to my ears enjoy playing a Genos. If Yamaha ever decides to release a Genos 2 & added a TILT Up Display, update the Setlist features to List all formats openly sty,mid,mp3,wav, to just scroll thru without all the extra button pushes and TC Helicon vocal harmony (I am a singer/player also) I would personally go with the Genos to satisfy my needs as an arranger player.
Yes absolutely, first and foremost the keyboard you choose and use should primarily be the one that suits your needs the most in all areas, playing style, like how it sounds, that it covers what you need in the areas that matters to you the most. I think the minute you have a board where it only partially satisfies your needs and then having to compromise for the rest I think eventually start to look elsewhere again. Even if a person owns more than 1 keyboard to think it would cover the best of both worlds may help but it becomes more tedious and complex, perhaps more so for professionals like yourself where you want everything you need in once place, less to carry and set up. Some of my friends who gig take multiple keyboards with them.
Certainly in the example you gave of the dual style feature, it's certainly isn't a necessity but more of a nice to have and adds a bit of colour & dimension to style playing but in by no way is it necessary. Features are great but I think the one that suits you the best is the main thing to look for and the Genos certainly covers all and more.
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At 2;00 in the video they talk about the DUAL sequencer that can play TWO styles at once
how many people would use this and what for ?..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2InFUgORHEo&t=383s
I am one of them Dnj 😁
When you have the possibility to sync the styles with those two players and can make something like DJ's do, by mixing songs, why not? Of course, you must choose the next song carrefully to be possible to do the mix, but I tell you that this can be done, and THAT is the purpose, for mixing songs, to switch between them without stopping the playing and without feel the switch from one style to another.
I make almost all my style using the same drum kit, bass voice, guitar strumms voice, and so on. Why? It is simple: A band uses multiple drum kits when they are in a gig? uses multiple bass guitars when they sings? No! Yes, indeed, for guitars some effects could be changed, but in fact, when I choose the order of the songs in my gig I choose the songs that fit the same sound. Maybe in a playlist I use a set of songs using one drum kit and bass and guitars, and in the next playlist I use another drumkit, bass, guitars, and whatever other instruments... That's the way I play, and I tell you the sound is great, like in a band, and that likes to our audience.
This is my humble opinion, of course music is different in each country and may not fit at all how I work on these keyboards.
As a mention:
Peter Baartmans is one of the greatest demonstrator for Yamaha, there is nothing bad to tell about its performance, nothing!!! But in my country he had two demos, one for Tyros 5 and one for Genos. The feeling was not so great as I saw in other countries, because he played as you all know, with guitars, with pianos, with some movies songs, a lot of organs, but nothing to fit to our music, our styles and needs. For example in my country there is NO use of organs in our songs! We don't play organs! Maybe on catholic churches, but only there. So the demo for the organs was in vain for us. That's it! It is not an instrument that fit for my country, like Indian music does not fit in deutch countries, or japanese instruments in Europe's music!
What I want to tell is that these keyboards are NOT made for a single genre, or for some countries only. They must fit the needs for everyone. So they must implement a lot of things that can help most of the people who use them. Why Yamaha didn't call Genos like "GenosUK", or "Genos DE" or "Genos USA"? The instrument is UNIVERSAL, can be used in multiple countries, and IMHO MUST fit the needs for all the world who use it! The problem is that when we know that they can do it and they don't want to!
Best regards,
Vali
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Vali,.....understood,
...great reply. and different countries music is definitely a concern that has to be addressed.
I can see the use of the Dual player as you mentioned.
Thank you for sharing your needs I learned something today.
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Danny a very good reply and another thing to consider is thing to consider when buying is that your paying for features that you may NEVER use also. However, with only a few choices out there what is a player to do?
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Hi Donny, I find it a great way to come up with new styles and fix up some of the styles from earlier models that one may need.
Basically load old style into player 1, load a similar type of factory style into player 2. Turn on sync.
Mute the track you want to replace in old style player 1, ( just say drums) mute all tracks in player 2 except for drum track, press shift play, both styles will start playing , you can hear how drum track sounds with old style, if not suitable, while it’s still playing , pick another style and another till I find what I want.
I take note of the style tracks that work, do a quick copy /paste ( style assembly on psr) .
Old style ,has new life.
Or I can do the same with 2 factory styles to come up with a new style.
It’s pretty amazing the endless number of styles one can come up with using the 2 style players at the same time and muting tracks on each.
You should watch ( if you haven’t already done so) Qui’s video on song specific styles with midi files. If I’m not mistaken you may have used the occasional midi file when you used to perform and sing ? I remember a couple of the old standards you posted , could not have been a keyboard style on its own, sounded too lush and full, you must have added additional tracks.
It’s got me digging out some of my old midi files.
https://youtu.be/SURtgtsGT68
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another thing to consider is thing to consider when buying is that your paying for features that you may NEVER use also. However, with only a few choices out there what is a player to do?
If you are buying the latest model you cannot help or control what features are included, it will be part of the keyboard and nothing we can do about it. So for example, say you really like the sound of the Pa5x and wanted to purchase it, but you didn't want half the stuff on it, it won't be possible to just remove the things you don't want and that will go for all the newer arrangers or any instruments now.
The only other answer then is to look to previous models and look for the one that you enjoyed most in the past, there will always be a favourite. For example, the boards I used the longest previously in the past were the PSR8000, Pa80, Pa1x, Tyros3 then Tyros4 in that order, those were what I classed as my main boards and with each change came more and more features that I didn't use, for example, I am not a singer so I never used the VH on any of the boards even now. I do feel like it's a bit of a waste but I can think of it this way, that it's a) something that comes with the board by default, regardless, and b) it's there should I ever decide to use it, 3) more features makes a good selling point if you wanted to get rid if it
Unfortunately it's not like a PC where you hand in the spec you want and they built it for you based around that spec. Would be nice if it could be possible.
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I think Yamaha has gone a long way in trying to make there keyboards usable for most. We all know it would be impossible to bring out a different keyboard for different Countries so the free packs now go a long way into helping with this problem.
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Rikki as always thank you for your very informative reply & link to a detailed instruction using the Pa5x's powerful features. It's amazing and so creative as to what this unit can do in so many ways. That said I try to mix it up using Styles & sometimes Midi files also in a project song to get the desired result. After all your paying for these things why not learn & use them too. Your explanation of using the DUAL Player makes sense I appreciate your ideas. 8)
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I think Yamaha has gone a long way in trying to make there keyboards usable for most. We all know it would be impossible to bring out a different keyboard for different Countries so the free packs now go a long way into helping with this problem.
Respecting your point, allow me to disagree. And I will disagree for three main reasons:
1) The possibilities do not cost but it is a matter of the will of the company, and this was shown by OS Version 2.0 of Genos, where suddenly Yamaha increased the RAM from 1.7 giga to 3 giga. And I wonder: What is easier? Increase Ram or add features like different time signature with each variation, different tempo speed with each different variation, ability to create Major Min in Intro & Ending, onboard sample editing capabilities, User Articulation capabilities, extensive Sound Editing capabilities and more. These cost absolutely nothing (trust me, especially when we are talking about a company like Yamaha) and this is amply proven by Korg being the only one (over time) to offer literally EVERYTHING and much more (in all these features) even on a cheap and old Pa300. This is also the reason why Korg is preferred in countries like mine (Greece) as well as Turkey, and all Arab and Balkan countries.
All this may not be useful at all for many here, but there are musical cultures (like the countries I mentioned above) where they require special capabilities to be realized.
I am giving you an example to understand the complexity of what I am describing. Listen to this demo which is from the professional Greek set I created for the Korg Pa Series and has been out since 2018.
https://soundcloud.com/sokratis-1974/stankena?in=sokratis-1974/sets/paradosiaka&si=99459b65775a4b309094073d55052d06&utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing
So here we have a style with first time signature 13/8 and the second time signature 11/8, as well as with a different tempo speed in each variation. This could not be achieved except in Korg and recently in the Event. Previously, even Ketron did not offer all these possibilities (in models SD9, or Audya) but the company heard all these problems from users and implemented them in the Event.
Of course, this is impossible to achieve in Genos. This can only be achieved on the PSR A5000.
Will you tell me now why I don't buy the A5000? I have absolutely no reason as well as find it unacceptable to have to pay again for a new instrument for features that should be self-explanatory for a workstation (as Yamaha calls the Genos) Consequently, if you don't need them, it doesn't mean that other people don't need them either.
Also, Ketron, a very small company, managed to a huge extent to reach Korg in many possibilities recently with the Event, but again Korg holds the lead because it continues to release new instruments with particularly extensive capabilities (such as the new Pa5x) regardless of any bugs and omissions that are observed which I believe is only a matter of time to be resolved via update.
And it turns out that if Yamaha wants to it can do whatever it wants (in our case) with the relatively new Oriental Model Yamaha A5000 where the company has given users several of the features I mentioned above, and as we know both the A5000 and the PSR SX series are 100% based on the Genos engine. So, I clearly think that it is the commercial policy of the company to distribute capabilities according to the taste of marketing.
2) Both Yamaha and Korg call these models (Genos, Pa5x) as "Digital Workstations". But the truth is that only Korg has the right to say this because it is the only company that in its models (and especially the Pa5x) represents 100% the real concept of a workstation where the purpose is to carry out a 100% musical production ( or any other musical process - he saw the creation of styles with extended features that I mention above, extended sampler features and many more) without the slightest use of any third-party software which in many cases actually has to be purchased.
3) The packages you mention, let me tell you, are too poor to cover even the most basic needs of my country and many other countries. Personally, I have no problem at all as I am lucky enough to be a producer of packages and professional sets myself (at Korg). But it is completely unimaginable to me when, for example, I took Genos in my hands for the first time (in 2018) and to my great surprise I found that even an octave that someone wants to change to a sound of the style (the simplest thing), has to turn the style into a midi file, take a picture of it in a daw (Cubase, etc.) change the octave he wants through the midi sequence, re-export the midi file, convert it back to a style (.STY) import again to the instrument and alas if there was a separate major and minor version in some Intro or Ending.. We are talking about a real (headache) that requires third-party software in a really, complicated way. And I would like to ask you if you see all this (normally). Anyway, I don't see them as normal or logical either.
You will also ask me why I kept Genos and why I am still working on it? I won't hide from you that I have thought too many times to sell it, but the main reason is that I have not yet prepared the Event for my personal needs because it requires a lot of time. It took Genos two years to complete the work I wanted for my personal package, which of course we must emphasize that the above time was due to the many obstacles from the limited possibilities I mention above, which makes your life difficult and particularly demanding a lot of time and effort. I hope the company will see these at some point because if they want to it is very easy (not to say ridiculously easy) for a company (colossus) like Yamaha.
I should finally clarify that in my personal package that I have created for my needs in Genos, it does not require extensive musical needs like those I mentioned above (because I play in hotels) so I need some much simpler and not complex Greek styles as well as some international styles which I have specially created based on my taste.
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Respecting your point, allow me to disagree. And I will disagree for three main reasons:
1) The possibilities do not cost but it is a matter of the will of the company, and this was shown by OS Version 2.0 of Genos, where suddenly Yamaha increased the RAM from 1.7 giga to 3 giga. And I wonder: What is easier? Increase Ram or add features like different time signature with each variation, different tempo speed with each different variation, ability to create Major Min in Intro & Ending, onboard sample editing capabilities, User Articulation capabilities, extensive Sound Editing capabilities and more. These cost absolutely nothing (trust me, especially when we are talking about a company like Yamaha) and this is amply proven by Korg being the only one (over time) to offer literally EVERYTHING and much more (in all these features) even on a cheap and old Pa300. This is also the reason why Korg is preferred in countries like mine (Greece) as well as Turkey, and all Arab and Balkan countries.
All this may not be useful at all for many here, but there are musical cultures (like the countries I mentioned above) where they require special capabilities to be realized.
I am giving you an example to understand the complexity of what I am describing. Listen to this demo which is from the professional Greek set I created for the Korg Pa Series and has been out since 2018.
https://soundcloud.com/sokratis-1974/stankena?in=sokratis-1974/sets/paradosiaka&si=99459b65775a4b309094073d55052d06&utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing
So here we have a style with first time signature 13/8 and the second time signature 11/8, as well as with a different tempo speed in each variation. This could not be achieved except in Korg and recently in the Event. Previously, even Ketron did not offer all these possibilities (in models SD9, or Audya) but the company heard all these problems from users and implemented them in the Event.
Of course, this is impossible to achieve in Genos. This can only be achieved on the PSR A5000.
Will you tell me now why I don't buy the A5000? I have absolutely no reason as well as find it unacceptable to have to pay again for a new instrument for features that should be self-explanatory for a workstation (as Yamaha calls the Genos) Consequently, if you don't need them, it doesn't mean that other people don't need them either.
Also, Ketron, a very small company, managed to a huge extent to reach Korg in many possibilities recently with the Event, but again Korg holds the lead because it continues to release new instruments with particularly extensive capabilities (such as the new Pa5x) regardless of any bugs and omissions that are observed which I believe is only a matter of time to be resolved via update.
And it turns out that if Yamaha wants to it can do whatever it wants (in our case) with the relatively new Oriental Model Yamaha A5000 where the company has given users several of the features I mentioned above, and as we know both the A5000 and the PSR SX series are 100% based on the Genos engine. So, I clearly think that it is the commercial policy of the company to distribute capabilities according to the taste of marketing.
2) Both Yamaha and Korg call these models (Genos, Pa5x) as "Digital Workstations". But the truth is that only Korg has the right to say this because it is the only company that in its models (and especially the Pa5x) represents 100% the real concept of a workstation where the purpose is to carry out a 100% musical production ( or any other musical process - he saw the creation of styles with extended features that I mention above, extended sampler features and many more) without the slightest use of any third-party software which in many cases actually has to be purchased.
3) The packages you mention, let me tell you, are too poor to cover even the most basic needs of my country and many other countries. Personally, I have no problem at all as I am lucky enough to be a producer of packages and professional sets myself (at Korg). But it is completely unimaginable to me when, for example, I took Genos in my hands for the first time (in 2018) and to my great surprise I found that even an octave that someone wants to change to a sound of the style (the simplest thing), has to turn the style into a midi file, take a picture of it in a daw (Cubase, etc.) change the octave he wants through the midi sequence, re-export the midi file, convert it back to a style (.STY) import again to the instrument and alas if there was a separate major and minor version in some Intro or Ending.. We are talking about a real (headache) that requires third-party software in a really, complicated way. And I would like to ask you if you see all this (normally). Anyway, I don't see them as normal or logical either.
You will also ask me why I kept Genos and why I am still working on it? I won't hide from you that I have thought too many times to sell it, but the main reason is that I have not yet prepared the Event for my personal needs because it requires a lot of time. It took Genos two years to complete the work I wanted for my personal package, which of course we must emphasize that the above time was due to the many obstacles from the limited possibilities I mention above, which makes your life difficult and particularly demanding a lot of time and effort. I hope the company will see these at some point because if they want to it is very easy (not to say ridiculously easy) for a company (colossus) like Yamaha.
I should finally clarify that in my personal package that I have created for my needs in Genos, it does not require extensive musical needs like those I mentioned above (because I play in hotels) so I need some much simpler and not complex Greek styles as well as some international styles which I have specially created based on my taste.
Cool story bro.
ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
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Cool story bro.
ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
Despite your well-founded counter arguments, I disagree with you ;)
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Respecting your point, allow me to disagree. And I will disagree for three main reasons:
1) The possibilities do not cost but it is a matter of the will of the company, and this was shown by OS Version 2.0 of Genos, where suddenly Yamaha increased the RAM from 1.7 giga to 3 giga. And I wonder: What is easier? Increase Ram or add features like different time signature with each variation, different tempo speed with each different variation, ability to create Major Min in Intro & Ending, onboard sample editing capabilities, User Articulation capabilities, extensive Sound Editing capabilities and more. These cost absolutely nothing (trust me, especially when we are talking about a company like Yamaha) and this is amply proven by Korg being the only one (over time) to offer literally EVERYTHING and much more (in all these features) even on a cheap and old Pa300. This is also the reason why Korg is preferred in countries like mine (Greece) as well as Turkey, and all Arab and Balkan countries.
All this may not be useful at all for many here, but there are musical cultures (like the countries I mentioned above) where they require special capabilities to be realized.
I am giving you an example to understand the complexity of what I am describing. Listen to this demo which is from the professional Greek set I created for the Korg Pa Series and has been out since 2018.
https://soundcloud.com/sokratis-1974/stankena?in=sokratis-1974/sets/paradosiaka&si=99459b65775a4b309094073d55052d06&utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing
So here we have a style with first time signature 13/8 and the second time signature 11/8, as well as with a different tempo speed in each variation. This could not be achieved except in Korg and recently in the Event. Previously, even Ketron did not offer all these possibilities (in models SD9, or Audya) but the company heard all these problems from users and implemented them in the Event.
Of course, this is impossible to achieve in Genos. This can only be achieved on the PSR A5000.
Will you tell me now why I don't buy the A5000? I have absolutely no reason as well as find it unacceptable to have to pay again for a new instrument for features that should be self-explanatory for a workstation (as Yamaha calls the Genos) Consequently, if you don't need them, it doesn't mean that other people don't need them either.
Also, Ketron, a very small company, managed to a huge extent to reach Korg in many possibilities recently with the Event, but again Korg holds the lead because it continues to release new instruments with particularly extensive capabilities (such as the new Pa5x) regardless of any bugs and omissions that are observed which I believe is only a matter of time to be resolved via update.
And it turns out that if Yamaha wants to it can do whatever it wants (in our case) with the relatively new Oriental Model Yamaha A5000 where the company has given users several of the features I mentioned above, and as we know both the A5000 and the PSR SX series are 100% based on the Genos engine. So, I clearly think that it is the commercial policy of the company to distribute capabilities according to the taste of marketing.
2) Both Yamaha and Korg call these models (Genos, Pa5x) as "Digital Workstations". But the truth is that only Korg has the right to say this because it is the only company that in its models (and especially the Pa5x) represents 100% the real concept of a workstation where the purpose is to carry out a 100% musical production ( or any other musical process - he saw the creation of styles with extended features that I mention above, extended sampler features and many more) without the slightest use of any third-party software which in many cases actually has to be purchased.
3) The packages you mention, let me tell you, are too poor to cover even the most basic needs of my country and many other countries. Personally, I have no problem at all as I am lucky enough to be a producer of packages and professional sets myself (at Korg). But it is completely unimaginable to me when, for example, I took Genos in my hands for the first time (in 2018) and to my great surprise I found that even an octave that someone wants to change to a sound of the style (the simplest thing), has to turn the style into a midi file, take a picture of it in a daw (Cubase, etc.) change the octave he wants through the midi sequence, re-export the midi file, convert it back to a style (.STY) import again to the instrument and alas if there was a separate major and minor version in some Intro or Ending.. We are talking about a real (headache) that requires third-party software in a really, complicated way. And I would like to ask you if you see all this (normally). Anyway, I don't see them as normal or logical either.
You will also ask me why I kept Genos and why I am still working on it? I won't hide from you that I have thought too many times to sell it, but the main reason is that I have not yet prepared the Event for my personal needs because it requires a lot of time. It took Genos two years to complete the work I wanted for my personal package, which of course we must emphasize that the above time was due to the many obstacles from the limited possibilities I mention above, which makes your life difficult and particularly demanding a lot of time and effort. I hope the company will see these at some point because if they want to it is very easy (not to say ridiculously easy) for a company (colossus) like Yamaha.
I should finally clarify that in my personal package that I have created for my needs in Genos, it does not require extensive musical needs like those I mentioned above (because I play in hotels) so I need some much simpler and not complex Greek styles as well as some international styles which I have specially created based on my taste.
Yamaha has the best sounds but the Korg has more functions and truly awesome possibilities.
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Hello Donny, absolutely great you mentioned this as its a feature I do use occasionally & the results are superb. It's great for mixing a Pop style with Latins, or Ballads with Dance it really works very well. You do have to experiment a bit as you can't just pick any old style and smash them together, it's really more suitable if you find songs that you can play to more than one type of musical style, then it really shines switching between both. Great feature indeed.
Yes, the dual style player *was* worthless at launch because it wasn't tempo synched. But now that you can tempo sync it with the big update, it *is* like crossfading 2 dj tracks. Not a feature I'd use often, but it's actually kinda neat now :)
Mark
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Yes, the dual style player *was* worthless at launch because it wasn't tempo synched. But now that you can tempo sync it with the big update, it *is* like crossfading 2 dj tracks. Not a feature I'd use often, but it's actually kinda neat now :)
Mark
Hi Mark,
That’s not quite true, for me it was always fine and worked in synch from day one. I bought the Pa5x from launch with the first OS release as well. The button combination to get the tempo in synch changed in the latest OS release to make it easier but it was always there. If you check Bonners demo of the Pa5x from 10 months ago you can see Tony demonstrating this feature before the OS update.
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Hi Mark,
That’s not quite true, for me it was always fine and worked in synch from day one. I bought the Pa5x from launch with the first OS release as well. The button combination to get the tempo in synch changed in the latest OS release to make it easier but it was always there. If you check Bonners demo of the Pa5x from 10 months ago you can see Tony demonstrating this feature before the OS update.
I'd already seen the video you were talking about before (I assume this one)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRS9DzxwBmE
That's *not* tempo sync. At around 20:25, he *manually* had to set the tempo of style 2 to correspond to style 1. The number of customers who tried it out and were gobsmacked when I told them they had to "sync" it manually. Imagine if you told a DJ he had to stop 1 song, change the tempo manually to match the other song and then play them together?
I didn't mean the syncro start, I meant the fact that if I then switched again I'd have to stop the 2nd style, manually adjust the tempo to match the first, then play again. That's just silly. Some customers refused to believe me they'd launch the feature so broken, and I showed them videos showing that they had to do it manually, and they just couldn't believe it. However, as soon as Korg announced tempo sync as a new feature, I let people know, and once I updated the OS it was very usable.
Now you can set tempo lock, and on the fly change style 1 or 2 and it will all sync up. Now it's pretty neat!
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There is a lot of debat about the korg pa5x pianos, some people are hating the sound and others do really like them. I really like them, i have the same pianos in my korg kronos and i always wished to have them available in a Keyboard so that i can use them with styles. And now I can.
I've created a demo of the factory sounds, my own sounds and the last part is a tutorial about how to create those sounds yourself. So hopefully someone over here can use it.
The video can be found over here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LlXLDaTRNg
Korg Pa5x - Piano demos and tutorial keyboard sets
In this tutorial I will show some of the factory pianos, my own versions of the factory pianos and I will explain how to create your own piano keyboard sets and how to alter the piano sounds.
Topics
00:00 Factory pianos
03:32 Demo: my own piano keyboard sets
16:15 Tutorial: how to create your own piano keyboard sets
31:14 Outro
Timetable:
--------------
Factory Pianos
00:00 - 03:32
00:00 demo: Time
00:53 austrian piano
01:25 resonance demo
02:18 how to solve the resonance
--------------------------------
Demo: my own piano keyboard sets
03:32 - 16:15
03:32 explanation
04:06 demo: Austrian Pianos
06:49 demo: German Pianos
08:34 demo: Italian Pianos
11:51 demo: Japan Pianos
13:38 demo: Neo Soul Electric Pianos
14:42 demo: Time
----------------------------------------------------
Tutorial: how to create your own piano keyboard sets
16:15 - 31:57
16:15 explanation
17:18 mixer, insert and master fx
18:35 EQ basics
21:54 removing hammer noises with filters
24:10 ambient reverb settings
27:18 pad sounds beneath a piano (tips and tricks)
31:16 outro
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For the people that are interested in this,
I've created a Korg Pa5x Style demo with 100 songs in 25 minutes (to get an impression how they sound, around 90 of them are factory styles). The song list is in the description of the video.
What I also did is adding 3 yamaha genos styles to the pa5x, it takes about 5 minutes to convert any yamaha genos style to a pa5x style. In this video the following songs are yamaha genos songs wich I converted:
- Chiquitita
- Black Velvet
- Shakatak Mashup
- Higher Grounds (stevie wonder) was created from a midi file on the pa5x.
It's extremely easy to create new styles for the pa5x (i have a tutorial for this on my youtube channel for those who are interested in this procedure).
you can find the style demo here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krORek_EF3g
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....the korg pa5x pianos....the last part is a tutorial about how to create those sounds yourself. So hopefully someone over here can use it....
14:42 demo: Time
Qui,
Coincidentally, I had been watching your PA5X piano sets video several times this weekend, not realizing you were also on this forum. The PA5X pianos sound great, especially the “QR German Piano Magic” you feature in the opening segment playing the Hans Zimmer piece and then again 14 minutes in. I really liked that ambient background stuff on that particular piano.
My question is, most of us here on the Yamaha forum don’t have the PA5X, so was wondering (if you use SX900/Genos) can you make a tutorial on how to get a similar piano sound on the Yamahas? Perhaps there is some way to achieve this with a delay effect on one of the voices. I haven't had success yet.
Also, you mentioned its’s easy to convert Genos to PA5X styles. Has anyone converted PA5X styles to Genos/SX? I did a separate post on this but no one seemed interested. I would like to see the Styles content on this website updated with some fresh content.
Rich
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..can you make a tutorial on how to get a similar piano sound on the Yamahas?...
hello Rich,
Although question is addressed to robinez, let me share my thoughts about this...
I'm quite sure that one can get similar (almost equal) sound on any decent Yamaha arranger. The only condition is, we must have a good piano voice built-in, or we need to create custom piano voice (if we have the right samples).
Most agree that Pa5X has excellent piano voices built-in and so obviously we need to start with comparable voice on Yamaha.
Genos already has CFX and C7 pianos which are considered as a premium piano voices -the rest is up to editing/adapting the voice to our liking. The result will depend on our skill/knowledge and especially on our patience. To get what we want can't be done in 15 minutes, because there are too many settings we deal with: it can take days. Let me explain... Even if it happens we get desired result in 30min's, when we will listen to that voice again in next day, we will realize it doesn't sound as we thought it does. The thing is, our ears must rest between sound evaluating sessions.
It's more problematic with PSR keyboards (I have SX700) which have embarrassing piano voices built-in. That is, if we start with poor sounding source, we can only get poor sounding result. Here the only solution is to find good piano samples and make a custom voice -that way piano on PSR can sound as good as on TOTL keyboard.
I'm sure that you already know all that.. I'm writing this for general audience :)
Bogdan
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Good points, Bogdan. I might add that the final sound of any sample depends on what speaker system you use. If you're playing your Genos over its own speakers, the parameters would be totally different than if the player was on stage with larger performance speakers.
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Qui,
Coincidentally, I had been watching your PA5X piano sets video several times this weekend, not realizing you were also on this forum. The PA5X pianos sound great, especially the “QR German Piano Magic” you feature in the opening segment playing the Hans Zimmer piece and then again 14 minutes in. I really liked that ambient background stuff on that particular piano.
My question is, most of us here on the Yamaha forum don’t have the PA5X, so was wondering (if you use SX900/Genos) can you make a tutorial on how to get a similar piano sound on the Yamahas? Perhaps there is some way to achieve this with a delay effect on one of the voices. I haven't had success yet.
Also, you mentioned its’s easy to convert Genos to PA5X styles. Has anyone converted PA5X styles to Genos/SX? I did a separate post on this but no one seemed interested. I would like to see the Styles content on this website updated with some fresh content.
Rich
that piano is really easy to make, it's a blend of a piano and a pad sound. The piano has a specific EQ curve where the low end was removed and some high frequencies through EQ were emphasized. Then the cutoff of the total piano gives it that sound.
This is one of the pianos that absolutely can be created on the Genos, with the CFX or C7 pianos as a base and the cutoff off you can get really close if you blend it with a pad sound in the keyboard set. The genos has less posibilities for sound design but even then, these type of pianos can definitely be done. The genos pianos are high quality so that gives lots of frequencies to play with.
I will think about a tutorial for that, thanks for the suggestion.
your other question is harder. It's hard (not impossible) to create new styles for the yamaha genos. This is because the genos demands some extra blocks with information in them (CASM) and there are some other requirements. The korg is much easier, it only needs a midi file and then basically you are done. It's just a matter of setting the correct labels and import it in the korg pa5x and you are there. The revoicing can entirely be done on the korg pa5x mixer screen, there is no need to do this in event edit mode with program changes or whatsoever.
So converting a yamaha style to a very good sounding pa5x style takes around 5 minutes. 2 minutes for the markers renaming to the korg standard and 3 minutes for the revoicing and then it's converted. So easy to do.
But the other way around, I never tried it because the only CASM tool I found on this forum was based on JRE and I don't want to install that on my pc.
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Thanks for your responses, Qui. Good info to know about the Korg style conversation issue to Yamaha. There are few style folders available on this forum from the older PA3X model, so I was curious about the 5X.
Regarding the 5X ambient piano you featured, I was particularly interested in the rhythmic echo/delay effect used with the high pitched synth sound that was then layered with the piano. I thought it worked well with the Inception piece. I was not able to find an appropriate preset voice that had that type of waveform to apply effects to. It sounds like something from a Korg Wavestate rather than an arranger. The closest I was able to achieve on the SX was using an Echo insert effect plus heavy Reverb on an electric piano shifted to a higher octave for one of the voice parts. (I know we are in the Genos section here, but I only have an SX900 right now)
Rich
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Thanks for your responses, Qui. Good info to know about the Korg style conversation issue to Yamaha. There are few style folders available on this forum from the older PA3X model, so I was curious about the 5X.
Regarding the 5X ambient piano you featured, I was particularly interested in the rhythmic echo/delay effect used with the high pitched synth sound that was then layered with the piano. I thought it worked well with the Inception piece. I was not able to find an appropriate preset voice that had that type of waveform to apply effects to. It sounds like something from a Korg Wavestate rather than an arranger. The closest I was able to achieve on the SX was using an Echo insert effect plus heavy Reverb on an electric piano shifted to a higher octave for one of the voice parts. (I know we are in the Genos section here, but I only have an SX900 right now)
Rich
ah, yes that is a sine sound in wave sequence mode on the pa5x. The korg pa5x has 24 oscillators per sound and you can use them in the same way as a wave sequencer, so they start in the sustain phase of that sound. It's a programming trick in the pa5x synthesizer. That is not possible on the yamaha genos. Maybe when you add a sine sound to one of the upper sounds and then route the arpeggiator to only that one upper slot (there is a genos tutorial for that on my youtube channel) then you can get that looks like it, but in this case it's programmed in the sound by me.
this functionality goes really for on korg keyboards, for instance in this video I created some wavesequences on my korg wavestate, I sampled a few dry notes of that sound and added those samples to my korg pa5x. Then I used those samples to build something similar in the korg synthesizer. In this case I use a granulair effect technique with shimmering pitch notes to achieve this Brian Eno Pad sound. And you can do this all on the korg Pa5X. But in my opinion most keyboard players aren't interested in these kind of explanations how to do it. But i'm using my keyboards this way (also the genos, which you need a different approach to do this like wet FX sampling techniques).
the Brian Eno - An Ending cover can be found here, it's all done in the korg pa5x synthesizer mode:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr6e2XkzcMA
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Qui,
Got it, makes sense. I had heard the PA’s had better synthesis and control. That combined with easier ability to convert Yamaha styles to PA5X (not sure how simple that would be for me to do) makes it an intriguing choice perhaps down the road if I want a higher-end arranger with more synthesis control. Also good job on the Brian Eno piece. The movie “28 Days Later” used that piece.
Rich
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hello Rich,
Although question is addressed to robinez, let me share my thoughts about this...
Hi Bogdan.
I appreciate your comments and agree. You can read my further comments with robinez and his responses here. I was clarifying with him that it wasn’t only the Korg PA piano sound I was going for. Rather it was the ambient wave sequence using a sine waveform that worked really well layered with the piano. Yamaha arrangers can’t do this. You can hear this in his YT video, its at the beginning and also 14 min. in:
https://youtu.be/5LlXLDaTRNg
Rich
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... But the other way around, I never tried it because the only CASM tool I found on this forum was based on JRE and I don't want to install that on my pc.
Hi robinez,
you can use the free "CasmEdit" (Windows) program by Evgeny Osenenko. The current version is V3.2.6.1. It is compatible to SFF1 and SFF2 (SFF GE) styles. It is a very good program for Style and CASM editing. Also see the attached screenshot.
To download the last version click here:
>>> https://www.mnppsaturn.ru/osenenko/Main_eng.htm
On YouTube:
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xP1VZffIZRQ&list=PLkuU7i9JjxW5iPA0df1CdYrGmHkIlE62J
Best regards,
Chris
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mo with 100 songs in 25 minutes (to get an impression how they sound, around 90 of them are factory styles). The song list is in the description of the video.
What I also did is adding 3 yamaha genos styles to the pa5x, it takes about 5 minutes to convert any yamaha genos style to a pa5x style. In this video the following songs are yamaha genos songs wich I converted:
- Chiquitita
- Black Velvet
- Shakatak Mashup
- Higher Grounds (stevie wonder) was created from a midi file on the pa5x.
It's extremely easy to create new styles for the pa5x (i have a tutorial for this on my youtube channel for those who are interested in this procedure).
How do you convert Yamaha .sty to PA5x style?? I know you said it's on your channel, but all I found was midi to style (which is built into the PA series since the PA4x) and demos of converted styles, but not actually *how* to convert them?
thanks,
Mark
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How do you convert Yamaha .sty to PA5x style?? I know you said it's on your channel, but all I found was midi to style (which is built into the PA series since the PA4x) and demos of converted styles, but not actually *how* to convert them?
It is the same process as i've shown in my how to create styles in Cubase video (see the link at the bottom of this post). The only thing you have to do now is to rename the <yamaha style name>.sty file to <yamaha style name>.mid and then do the remapping and revoicing as described in that tutorial.
there are some things that you need to do to make the conversion perfect, but these are so obvious that i think most people can figure them out on their own.
But there are multiple requests for it, so probably I will create a youtube tutorial for it.
On the pa5x there is no creator bot in the current os, that will come in 2024. But for now you can use the method as described in my tutorial below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9PP4o0cdE0
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Hi Qui, the Genos styles you’re referring too as being able to be converted in a matter of minutes, are they “user “ styles you’ve created yourself for Genos, or Genos Factory Styles ?
Basically I haven’t had too many problems converting early ssf1 psr styles across to Korg, but, trying to convert some of my Sx900 factory styles across to Korg is proving to be far more difficult ie incompatible drum kits, program changes within a style track, incompatible voices, basically problems that early psr styles did not have.
Love to know if you’ve come up with a solution for some of the problems with newer model factory styles if that’s the type of styles you’re referring too. 😀
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...the ambient wave sequence using a sine waveform that worked really well layered with the piano. Yamaha arrangers can’t do this...
hi Rich,
Yes, I listened that particular part at 14th min. and I agree that it sounds very interesting. However I disagree that we can't get similar result on Yamaha.
I have no knowledge about Pa5x and so I might be wrong... but from what I see on video, I think that sine sequence padding isn't part of the voice: it's a style (or pad) playing it. And if I'm right on that, then the question is, can we create similar style on Yamaha? I haven't tried, but I'm sure we can. And because that sine pattern is used as padding, maybe we should actually create a pad. On SX700, there's a pad Chillout (in section Arranger1)... try PAD-1 and you will hear what I mean.
I can sense that robinez is quite passionate about his keyboard and we can hear the result of that. I imagine that many things are easier to accomplish on Pa5X (for those who know how to do it!), but many times similar can also be done on Yamaha (again, if we know how to).
Here I will borrow Chris's (overover) signature:
They always said: "This is not possible!" - Then someone came and ... just did it!
Bogdan
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These voices are interesting but hardly piano sounds anymore. You can get roughly similar results on rh voices by layering, but of course, these cannot be used in styles. But then I have to ask myself how many people would feel it necessary to go to these lengths to alter a style voice. Especially bearing in mind you can add pad voices to a style anyway. And to create so many just in case you might one day find one of them useful in a style??
I guess for some people this kind of innovative voice creation is almost an end in itself, so whatever floats your boat! I just can’t imagine though that the ability to do or not do this kind of voice manipulation is going to drive the keyboard choice for 99% plus of buyers.
Mike
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These voices are interesting but hardly piano sounds anymore. You can get roughly similar results on rh voices by layering, but of course, these cannot be used in styles. But then I have to ask myself how many people would feel it necessary to go to these lengths to alter a style voice. Especially bearing in mind you can add pad voices to a style anyway. And to create so many just in case you might one day find one of them useful in a style??
I guess for some people this kind of innovative voice creation is almost an end in itself, so whatever floats your boat! I just can’t imagine though that the ability to do or not do this kind of voice manipulation is going to drive the keyboard choice for 99% plus of buyers.
Mike
I agree with you, for most keyboard players this is totally not interesting at all that you can change sounds. But there is a group keyboard users (i know quite a lot of them) that are really enjoying that their keyboard is also capable of adding their own sounds and sound changes.
The Genos can do it through YEM and the korg has an open system where you can change almost anything on the keyboards itself. But it's possible for both keyboards.
And to proove that you can do it on the yamaha genos too, here is a song cover from above and beyond i made on my yamaha genos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kef2qOquHzI
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Hi Qui, the Genos styles you’re referring too as being able to be converted in a matter of minutes, are they “user “ styles you’ve created yourself for Genos, or Genos Factory Styles ?
Basically I haven’t had too many problems converting early ssf1 psr styles across to Korg, but, trying to convert some of my Sx900 factory styles across to Korg is proving to be far more difficult ie incompatible drum kits, program changes within a style track, incompatible voices, basically problems that early psr styles did not have.
Love to know if you’ve come up with a solution for some of the problems with newer model factory styles if that’s the type of styles you’re referring too. 😀
styles that are using program changes in one style track are problematic to convert indeed. I didn't came across such a style, but probably there are a few that do that. These can be converted with some extra programming, but in general when revoicing on the korg pa5x you are completely disabling the program changes in a track automatically.
Another thing that i saw when converting some of the more recent styles on the genos is that they are using a trick where they are using up till 16 midi channels where they in fact are using only 8 channels. They split up the low end of the chord / sequences and combine them with the upper part of the chord / sequence. It's easy to recognise because they are routed to the same sound in different channels. The way to solve this is to merge the two midi tracks to one. In cubase this is easy, just drag the part of 1 track on top of the other and they are merged.
But these things are very rare. Most styles are using a very standard setup and it's just a matter of renaming the labels and change 2 midi channel assignments, the revoicing can be done on the pa5x itself and that's all.
And it goes really quick, i'm amazed that the internet isn't full of converted styles because it's so easy to do. Yesterday i converted for instance: Sunhine reggae, Easy lover, Crocket's theme and Disco Inferno. That was done within 20 minutes and i had four new songstyles on the pa5x.
But i will create a youtube tutorial for it this weekend to show how to do it.
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...And to create so many just in case you might one day find one of them useful in a style??...
-agree.
But I think knowing these things ("how to do it"), is good in case we are into creating custom styles/pads/voices. That is, if we wish to play particular music as close to original as possible, or if we produce our own music.
...I just can’t imagine though that the ability to do or not do this kind of voice manipulation is going to drive the keyboard choice for 99% plus of buyers.
You might be wrong on that. It's the first impression that usually matters -which is the reason why professional musicians are hired to demonstrate new keyboard. When we look/listen to demo, we are impressed by result in first place and less on playing skill. Hired player actually many times demonstrates the playing as "everyone can do that" -to convince average Joe to buy the keyboard.
Similar happens in case of robinez demonstration of that particular piano sound: "sounds great.. never heard that before.. and so simple... that's my next keyboard".
Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing Pa5X (which is on my wish list). I'm just saying that many times we're not aware what we can do on keyboard that we have.
Bogdan
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hi Rich,
Yes, I listened that particular part at 14th min. and I agree that it sounds very interesting. However I disagree that we can't get similar result on Yamaha...
Bogdan,
I agree with you again. There’s no question that Yamahas sound great. I’ve only had the SX900 for a few months but Yamaha certainly gives us several options to tinker with sounds and effects, including as you mentioned, Multipads. I will check out that chillout Multipad, and yes, Styles is another way to get there, though I don’t think robinez used a style in his particular piece. His Genos video posted here today is certainly interesting, he uses a style in that one.
To MikeF’s point that 99% of keyboardists may not be looking for this level of sound manipulation. I think that should be revised to 99% of arranger keyboard players. Then there’s people like me who appreciate arrangers but sometimes want to cross over into messing around with more synth control. Maybe this dual interest is a smaller number of players for sure, but Korg obviously thinks there’s a market for it based on the control they put into the PA5X. Another option is just get a Korg Wavestate and use it with the Yamaha arranger.
Rich
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styles that are using program changes in one style track are problematic to convert indeed. I didn't came across such a style, but probably there are a few that do that. These can be converted with some extra programming, but in general when revoicing on the korg pa5x you are completely disabling the program changes in a track automatically.
Another thing that i saw when converting some of the more recent styles on the genos is that they are using a trick where they are using up till 16 midi channels where they in fact are using only 8 channels. They split up the low end of the chord / sequences and combine them with the upper part of the chord / sequence. It's easy to recognise because they are routed to the same sound in different channels. The way to solve this is to merge the two midi tracks to one. In cubase this is easy, just drag the part of 1 track on top of the other and they are merged.
But these things are very rare. Most styles are using a very standard setup and it's just a matter of renaming the labels and change 2 midi channel assignments, the revoicing can be done on the pa5x itself and that's all.
And it goes really quick, i'm amazed that the internet isn't full of converted styles because it's so easy to do. Yesterday i converted for instance: Sunhine reggae, Easy lover, Crocket's theme and Disco Inferno. That was done within 20 minutes and i had four new songstyles on the pa5x.
But i will create a youtube tutorial for it this weekend to show how to do it.
Hi Qui,
thank you,
I’m going to have to change the music genres I play, haha. The styles I like to play seem to be the ones that aren’t easy to convert.
Animation Fantasy , uses 2 different bass voices in intro 3. Changes from one instrument to the other in the middle of intro. Suppose just a case of compromise, pick an instrument that sounds ok throughout. 😀
Nowadays I only do the ones I desperately need. Fortunately with the 1.2 update my old style conversions are finally playing back correctly , was dreading that I might have to redo them. 🥺
A tutorial would be great for users.
I’m still using xgworks for my conversions. Good enough for my purposes. Saves learning something new.😀
Thank you
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Bogdan,
I agree with you again. There’s no question that Yamahas sound great. I’ve only had the SX900 for a few months but Yamaha certainly gives us several options to tinker with sounds and effects, including as you mentioned, Multipads. I will check out that chillout Multipad, and yes, Styles is another way to get there, though I don’t think robinez used a style in his particular piece. His Genos video posted here today is certainly interesting, he uses a style in that one.
you are correct about this, the Time demo was to show how the piano would sound in a complete song, that Time backing track i've created in Ableton, where i played a complete ambient version of that song and transfered that to the pa5x.
The Genos demo from above and beyond was played with a style. There I used the style, piano sound, pad sound and a multipad that adds the solo voice to that part of the song.
The most interesting piano in that pa5x demo was the Ocean piano in my opinion, that piano uses a General midi SFX sound (ocean) where i added a specific ADSR pattern on top of it drowned in a reverb. As you may know i'm a huge ambient sound fan and this is the kind of pianos i used the most.
The sine addons are also something I really like (listen for instance to Cosmic baby songs on youtube, these are all based on sine beeps and a mixture of ambient and Classical influences). In the pa5x you can easily create your own Sine based Arpeggiator patterns, just press record new pad and play your new arpeggiator and save it to your custom library. Then you can use it whenever you want and this way you can have access to 4 arpeggiators at the same time and you can assign 20 arpeggiators to a song to choose from as long as you don't use more than 4 arps at the same time. Extremely powerful.
Here is an example of a pa5x style where i added a custom sine based beep arpeggiator to the style with that method. It a cover of the song Resurrection from PPK.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RIUza4p7rM
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I have both keyboards my overall impression is previous Korg owners can`t accept this is a totally new format and as such needs to looked at as such.
The genos led in terms of modern styles the Korg a richer sound.
My daughter commented that the Genos sounded like it was recorded in a studio Where as the Korg sounds live.
Some of the work done by Robinez and chello set it apart from the genos.
Ease of use is similar if your prepared to do your homework.
The Korg overall is better for now, but we will se how Yamaha responds.
One thing however that may make a decision is, Genos follows the previous generations in how to do things. The Korg does not, so you have to start learning from scratch and as we get older were not prepared to do the hard yards so Yamaha will appeal to more people
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Korg Pa5X tutorial: Convert Yamaha styles to Korg styles
I have a Genos and a Pa5x, so I thought it was a good idea to create a tutorial how to convert Yamaha styles to Korg.
In this video I will show you how easy it is to convert Yamaha styles to full Korg Pa5X styles (works also the same on the korg pa4x).
We will take a Yamaha song style and convert that in realtime to a Korg song style.
timetable
00:00 DEMO: See See Rider
00:32 converting a yamaha style to korg
04:10 setting the correct korg labels
07:30 export to a korg midi file
09:00 create the style on the korg Pa5X
13:47 mixing stage: modify the levels and effects
18:22 DEMO: end result
You can find the tutorial over here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYeas-GcTpM
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The sine addons are also something I really like (listen for instance to Cosmic baby songs on youtube, these are all based on sine beeps and a mixture of ambient and Classical influences). In the pa5x you can easily create your own Sine based Arpeggiator patterns...
The sine beep voice is an interesting accent to the piano. I just wanted to point out that the SX900 does not seem to have any sine patches like that, unless I missed it. But I also have the Dreamscapes pack and found a voice in it called “Sine Lead” that was somewhat close to your sine sound.
Bogdan was correct in his earlier comment in this thread in that you can create something like this on Yamaha. I was able to record a simple multipad phrase using this sine lead and it works nicely as a background element to an ambient piano along with an appropriate ambient style. I suspect it’s easier to do this via the Yamaha multipad versus attempting to do a wave sequence on a PA5X, which I have no experience doing. I am however getting a frustrating few seconds gap of silence when the looped multipad plays back, and not sure how to fix that. Perhaps I am not doing the record and stop procedure correctly.
Rich
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The sine beep voice is an interesting accent to the piano. I just wanted to point out that the SX900 does not seem to have any sine patches like that, unless I missed it. But I also have the Dreamscapes pack and found a voice in it called “Sine Lead” that was somewhat close to your sine sound.
Bogdan was correct in his earlier comment in this thread in that you can create something like this on Yamaha. I was able to record a simple multipad phrase using this sine lead and it works nicely as a background element to an ambient piano along with an appropriate ambient style. I suspect it’s easier to do this via the Yamaha multipad versus attempting to do a wave sequence on a PA5X, which I have no experience doing. I am however getting a frustrating few seconds gap of silence when the looped multipad plays back, and not sure how to fix that. Perhaps I am not doing the record and stop procedure correctly.
Rich
it's easy to create a sine based beep sound from your sine lead, just go to sound edit mode and lower the sustain and release. With the decay you can set the length of the sine beep.
the gap of silence is probably caused by the cv length. Set the length accordingly to your pattern. Or you can cut parts out of your cv length in the edit menu.
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As topic title says: "If you're considering buying a Korg Pa5x"...
I saw Pa5X (61keys) in my local store and even I was extremely in hurry, I couldn't resist not to take a look on it. A guy there was very friendly and even I told him I'm in hurry (only taking a peek), he fired it on and so I spent there about 15min's... which means, that's not even a first impression. But still it it was impression enough and maybe worth to share that with those who are "considering" and don't have a chance to put hands on it. Btw. they also have Korg Pa1000 and complete current Yamaha arranger line.
Visually looks Pa5X darn good and gives a higher class impression (wooden side panels give that little extra). If comparing to Genos... Let me put this way: when Genos was introduced, it had very specific design, which was kinda standing out among other keyboards. The problem is (I think), design was too much different and because of that it ages very fast. And in a few years, it can happen it will be seen... as oldtimer. On the other hand, Tyros still looks good after all these years -because of it's normal design.
Keybed.. At starting playing I noticed immediately that keys are (much) wider and that can be a problem for those coming from Yamaha -yes, it happened to me I missed the keys because of that. I assume keys have width of Classical piano and so that's actually good news for real pianists. Anyway, I'm sure that after certain time one can adapt to new width.
Next thing that surprised me, is the fact that keys are much harder to press than on my SX700 and also harder than on Genos. No, they don't have hammer feel or similar -they're just harder to push. To be honest, as an amateur, I prefer the lighter key feel on my SX700. My personal verdict (by keeping in mind that we don't only play piano voice): among arrangers, Genos has the best keybed feel. Sidenote: keybed on Korg Pa1000 is just terrible (it feels very cheap).
As I mentioned, I only spent about 15min's behind Pa5X (playing piano voices) and so I can't talk about sound (voices) quality. I never tried Genos and so my comparison is related to PSR keyboards. Pianos on Pa5X sound very good and much better than pianos built in PSR's -but then, that shouldn't surprise anyone. I think Japanese grand piano used in Pa5X sounds very similar to Yamaha CFX (or C7), so here Pa5X and Genos might be equal. But Pa5X has an edge still: it has actually more pianos (Austrian, German, etc.) built-in and not only different settings of the same samples.
My summary... current prices now are about 3800€ for Genos (incl. speakers) and 4200€ for Pa5X. There can be no doubt that Pa5X is technically better. But is also quite different and so there are things where one need to adapt. That's also true for those coming from Korg midrange keyboard series (here I have keybed in mind). But then, adaptation will probably (hopefully) be also needed if/when Yamaha introduces Genos successor.
In short: If it would be possible right now, I would get Pa5X without thinking twice.
Disclaimer: I have a right to change my mind anytime in future ;)
Bogdan
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Keybed.. At starting playing I noticed immediately that keys are (much) wider and that can be a problem for those coming from Yamaha -yes, it happened to me I missed the keys because of that. I assume keys have width of Classical piano and so that's actually good news for real pianists. Anyway, I'm sure that after certain time one can adapt to new width.
Next thing that surprised me, is the fact that keys are much harder to press than on my SX700 and also harder than on Genos. No, they don't have hammer feel or similar -they're just harder to push. To be honest, as an amateur, I prefer the lighter key feel on my SX700. My personal verdict (by keeping in mind that we don't only play piano voice): among arrangers, Genos has the best keybed feel. Sidenote: keybed on Korg Pa1000 is just terrible (it feels very cheap).
good observation!
This is indeed true, the korg keyboards are using standard width keyboard keys, the yamaha keyboards are using a different form factor, they are smaller then on other keyboards or piano's. I had quite some problems on the yamaha genos when i started playing on my Genos, i'm so used to the standard width that it took some time to adapt. Also the weight of the key feel is something you never hear from others and this is true, the korg keyboard feel is semi weighted, it's somewhere between the weighted keys of a piano and the light synthesizer key feel. I'm used to it on the korg keyboards and it gives me a lot of dynamic control with the benefits of the light feeling of synthesizer keys. But when I play on my Genos I always hit those keys too hard, so I've used a different velocity curve for the Genos so that my harder hitting won't have that much effect.
So I fully agree with your observations. It takes some time to adapt to both keyboards.
Next time you are testing the korg I would highly suggest to take a look at the styles, they have a very different approach with their styles then yamaha, on the korg keyboards you have to work harder because the styles are more sparse, but it gives you more room to do your own things while playing the styles. It's a matter of preference but this preference is in my opinion the main difference why somebody would choose for a korg or a yamaha.
Korg always gives away quite some new styles, in the latest update they have added 35 new styles (with several famous songstyles from bruno mars and ed sheeran and more). I have a video with those new styles on my channel.
Here you can find it to hear how the new korg styles sounds:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNzB268MDAM