PSR Tutorial Forum
Genos (12 Boards) => Genos - General => Topic started by: ugawoga on July 01, 2022, 06:23:07 PM
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Hi
This is the deal .
Rush and trade your Genos now for a Jamborie bag. "YES Korg PAX5"!!
Only mugs will part with the Genos who cannot distinguish great sound for Commodore 64 sound.
I am being brutal here , but that is the comparison to me.
The PAX 5 is great on Piano's Strings and Quite good on Organs , But the rest of the sounds ,"Well".
Also good on functions.
The PAX 5 does not even come near the Genos.
Just look at the Trade up prices and it will tell you everything you need to know.
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Agreed, John.
Korg did well on the pianos, e.ps, and not bad on the organs, but the rest of the voices and drums don't even come close to even the Tyros 1 sounds. I have no idea how they dropped the ball so badly on these extra sounds. The OS looks overly complicated too. It's nicely presented but the emphasis seems to be on features rather than sound. Is their target audience computer geeks or real musicians ;D?
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Some nuance would be in order... although.. , ehh... this is the Yamaha forum, yes: I totally agree with you !! ;D ;D
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Hi
It just goes to show how valuable the GENOS IS :)
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Hi
This is the deal .
Rush and trade your Genos now for a Jamborie bag. "YES Korg PAX5"!!
Only mugs will part with the Genos who cannot distinguish great sound for Commodore 64 sound.
I am being brutal here , but that is the comparison to me.
The PAX 5 is great on Piano's Strings and Quite good on Organs , But the rest of the sounds ,"Well".
Also good on functions.
The PAX 5 does not even come near the Genos.
Just look at the Trade up prices and it will tell you everything you need to know.
I think you do not understand what the new Korg Pa5 brings to the table. They have embedded the Kronos, SV1, and Nautilus sound engine into the Pa5. If you have ever played ANY of those instruments, you should know the sound quality is 2nd to NONE! Also, there are now 100's of Kronos and Nautilus sound libraries available to used within the Pa5x. As a matter of fact, I used many of the Orchestral sounds on the Kronos and I'm sorry to say, they equal or exceed the Yamaha counterparts.
I wouldn't be so quick to judge this keyboard until you actually play it and hear it in person!!!
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I noticed Korg upped the price of the Pa5X. $4,899 for the 76 key version and $4,699 for the 61 key. After listening to several more demos I'm a little less enthused but there could be some settings adjustments in the menus to brighten up some of the sounds. In particular, it has a warmer sound than the Genos and there may be something gimmicky going on. If you've noticed in the demos there's a lot of reverb applied to most of the sounds I've heard so far anyway. As if Korg recorded the factory samples in some type of auditorium to give them a fuller, richer sound. Almost as if they were trying to cover up some of the sound imperfections in some of the various instrument categories to try to give them more realism. One thing nice about Yamaha and Genos in particular is it has super realistic sounding voices. The Pa5X does as well such as the Organs and most of the Brass instruments I've heard so far. Anyway, once stores have them in stock I will be the first in line to play one extensively, and then make a determination whether it's a serious contender to the current Genos. Genos II is another story. In a couple or so years most likely. :(
All the best,
Mike
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Good points. In fairness to any new keyboard, demo videos can either really enhance the sound or destroy it. So much depends on what sound system is used to play the demo videos. Ordinary computer speakers may color the sound in a way that makes the PA5X sound superior, while listening to the demos over my Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, not so good.
Kbrkr is correct. The ultimate flinch test is bringing one home to try with the system you play through all the time. I don't even rely on "in-store" demos anymore. I can't tell you how many pianos and keyboards I've tried out in the store while some young aspiring teenage rookie is 20 feet away auditioning a Marshall stack turned up to 11, while playing Smoke On The Water, with a $1,600 Telecaster!
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Seeing what the trade in price for the Genos was , it is a no brainer to keep the Genos and wait for the Next Yamaha Keyboard.
The saxes and a lot of other sound do not cut it for me.
Sorry, but Genos is a lot better sounding than the PAX5.
Genos sounds are smoother and a lot more realistic in my opinion.
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Good point about the saxes, John. In my current band, I'm using a boatload of sax voices. I wish there was a way to adjust the vibrato "on time" and "degree" for the saxes. The voice samples are stellar but for extra realism, I'd love to have that added advantage. I've been listening to sax solos to determine their dynamics and expressions. You also must be aware that any mouth instrument requires the player to breath! The raw material for all this to happen is well within the Genos voicings.
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They have embedded the Kronos, SV1, and Nautilus sound engine into the Pa5.
Er not so quick...
first of all there isnt just ONE sound engine in the KRONOS but many - and of those the only one that applies here is the ROMPLER one. The modelling engines - whether synth, hammond, EP , strings, etc are ONLY in the KRONOS and NAUTILUS ranges.
And as to what has been brought into the PA5 - its the addition of STREAMING from NAND "Disk" for certain big sample size instruments - pianos chiefly - from KRONOS.
But as I understand it - that streaming ability only applies to the ON BOARD factory sounds Korg have added to PA5 from Nautilus. Because of technical limitations and the size of the internal SSD ( NAND ) storage - there won't be any means to expand the PA5 with 3rd party (Huge sample size) libraries sold for the KRONOS/NAUTILUS family. The internal NAND SSD isnt that big and theres no ability to stream from external SSD because the circuit and bus tech wont support it. There does seem a question mark as to how big exactly the internal SSD ( NAND ROM ) actually is - and how much would be free to install extra (huge gigabyte ) libraries in future - but my bet is that it wont support much in the way go gigabyte size libraries - if any -
So although its great to see some Nautilus instruments in there - engine wise and expandability wise - certainly disk capacity wise - this isnt NAUTILUS "Lite"
So I like so many am waiting with baited breath to see what Yamaha do with the next gen Genos. And crossing fingers they do the "right thing" and include finally a USB output that supports multichannel digital audio.
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Wow those upgrade prices are laughable. Korg wishes they got Yamaha marketshare.
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which company is offering the trade ?
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Look up at the top of page
Go to email address UK company
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All sour grapes...Korg have produced a game changer here with the Pa5X.
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I don’t see it as sour grapes, just mis-judgement of what matters to new buyers as opposed to existing Genos owners.
Learning curve matters, but if you take that away, this new Korg is certainly an attractive keyboard. Yes, you will find some voices or styles on the Genos some like better, but both seem overall great sounding keyboards, and no-one buys one keyboard over another because of tiny differences in a few voices. If the voice is already pretty good, how you play it matters much more than if the voice is slightly better.
Korg may have an edge in some technical features, certainly in appearance, and a fully weighted 88 key is unmatched in a portable arranger.
Does that relegate Genos to a poor second, - definitely no, and some of the things PaX5 offers may matter little to many existing Genos owners, probably not enough to jump ship, ….. but it will be interesting to see how Yamaha responds.
Mike
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No need to jump ship...many players own both brands.
There are no bad keyboards just personal preference you pays your money and take your choice.
They all have an input to help improve future boards.
This finding fault with competitors products is getting boring !!!
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I find it difficult to determine if the 5X is a good keyboard when the demos are played using mostly Dance, Hip-Hop, Synth, or some other modern genre. I don't play that kind of music, so I have no frame of reference. When I heard Peter Baartmans demo the Genos, he played mostly music that I play. He sold me.
If someone as good as Baartmans were to play the older tunes through the 5X, it may capture my interest. So far, all I know is the 5X is an excellent keyboard for playing the modern stuff. The older genres are an unknown and I suspect have received very little interest from Korg.
It also appears as though the interface has been designed for more of a computer geek player versus a musician, who can't be bothered figuring out all those complicated screens. There is SO much information on each screen, it would take me a year of messing around just find my way through the basics! Out of the box, you can turn the Genos on and start playing. I doubt that's possible with the 5X. It looks like there's a very sharp learning curve involved - and I'm not new to arrangers!
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I find it difficult to determine if the 5X is a good keyboard when the demos are played using mostly Dance, Hip-Hop, Synth, or some other modern genre.
If someone as good as Baartmans were to play the older tunes through the 5X, it may capture my interest. So far, all I know is the 5X is an excellent keyboard for playing the modern stuff. The older genres are an unknown and I suspect have received very little interest from Korg.
Hi Lee
Take a look. https://youtu.be/MQaJklT5bUQ
Bill
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I find it difficult to determine if the 5X is a good keyboard when the demos are played using mostly Dance, Hip-Hop, Synth, or some other modern genre. I don't play that kind of music, so I have no frame of reference.
Yea, same here. If it can't play country or even rockabilly ... "It ain't music". Yamaha WINS bar none.
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Hi Lee
Take a look. https://youtu.be/MQaJklT5bUQ
Bill
Maybe good example of big band .... but the country selection has NO pedal steel guitar?!? Did they remove that sound? Whatever.
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Lee Batchelor. This Leigh Wilbraham video may be of help Re Easy Play.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQaJklT5bUQ
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Thanks, Bill. Not bad. The Country style lags behind the Genos but the Latin style sounds good, as does the Swing. One thing I really notice is the number of styles that employ a 5-string bass with its B string. I have yet to hear that on the Genos.
Korg really needs a "Baartmans" player to show us what the 5X can do. So far, all the demos I've seen are done with "fair" players. They don't know the intricacies of the various solo and ensemble instruments. For example, you never use grace notes with a sex section. It's nearly impossible for a sax section to do that with the accuracy of a keyboard ;D.
All this 5X exploring makes me even hungrier for Genos 2. Yamaha will not sit back and do nothing. I suspect Genos 2 will top the 5X.
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Thanks, Graham. That's the same link that Bill posted. It does show more of the styles I use ;).
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Hello,
How the **** can one judge a keyboard if one hasn't heard and seen it live yet???
Just to be clear, I've been a Genos player since 2017!
Do you really think people at Korg are stupid?
They too will bring upgrades, and who knows, maybe some of you will soon be playing a Pa5x who knows!
PS: I'm going to a private demo with a Korg demonstrator this Sunday, I'll let you know my findings.
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You're right, to a point. We are all judging the 5X so far, only based on what we've heard from the current demos, which have not been stellar. I look forward to your observations. I'm sure the Korg demonstrator will be on par with Peter Baartmans, if that's even possible ;D.
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I thought this was a Yamaha arranger keyboard forum... what is all this talk about Korg? There are several threads going right now about the Pa5x. Isn't there a Korg forum?
???
Joe H
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I don’t see the PaX5 as a “game changer”, but it’s certainly part of the evolution of arrangers. An evolution driven largely by competition, so I think we are lucky to have two great companies involved, and the result is good products at reasonable prices, which benefits all of us players. None of us are married to either one, and whichever one you choose, there are no losers, because they are both excellent. And it will probably continue to get better
Joe - this a current hot topic for arranger owners, so not unreasonable to let it have space, even on a forum largely aimed at Yamaha products, as long as no-one gets obnoxious.
Mike
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.....Joe - this a current hot topic for arranger owners, so not unreasonable to let it have space, even on a forum largely aimed at Yamaha products, as long as no-one gets obnoxious.
Agree fully. And we may not forget that Yamaha arrangers and keyboards is hot topic at several fora as well when there is news.
Genos is still talked about and being comparised even at Korg forum. It works well. To me it seems like Korgies are more tolerant than Yammies... ::) ;D
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History of the Relationship between Yamaha and Korg
Yamaha Corporation has always been a major partner of Korg, supplying them with circuitry and mechanical parts.
In 1987, shortly before the release of the M1 Music Workstation, Yamaha acquired a controlling interest in Korg. The takeover of the company was amicable, with Kato drawing up the terms, and the two companies continued to independently develop their product lines and compete in the marketplace.
In 1989, Korg recruited the design team from Sequential Circuits as they were relieved of their duties by then-Sequential owner Yamaha.
In 1993, after 5 successful years under Yamaha's control, Kato had sufficient funds to repurchase most of the Yamaha shares.
No idea what their relationship is today.
Best wishes, JH
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Lee Batchelor. This Leigh Wilbraham video may be of help Re Easy Play.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQaJklT5bUQ
Thanks Graham. Now I've heard Leigh Wilbraham play REAL music on it, The PA5X is a top notch keyboard.
Liked the looks immediately but wasn't sure about some of the sounds. Now, I think many of the sounds are brilliant after all.
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Over the years it has frequently been suggested Korg arrangers tend to be more favored by pro gigging musicians and Yamaha more by the home player. It’s not a straight split, as many pros like Yamaha and vice versa. But that certainly should tell us enough about Korg to know they are not going to abandon that kind of player on their flagship. So no matter what they may have added for modern music producers, it would be a big surprise if it were not also solid for playing more traditional music.
Mike
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By the way, why is this thread pinned to the top with a ridiculous title, "This is the Real Deal Trade your Genos for You Know What!!!"?
If it requires to be pinned, at least it should have an appropriate title like "Korg PA5X".
Uday
:)
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By the way, why is this thread pinned to the top with a ridiculous title, "This is the Real Deal Trade your Genos for You Know What!!!"?
If it requires to be pinned, at least it should have an appropriate title like "Korg PA5X".
Uday
:)
Because that it's original Title posted by the board member, that's why. Simple as that. ;D
He wanted to point out the FACT that the Genos Yamaha keyboard's has held its money value (2017) for 5 years. Pretty impressive wouldn't you say? ;)
And it is pinned because we don't need 10 more threads about the Korg keyboard here at a Yamaha forum.
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As a matter of interest, can anyone tell me what the closing song is on the Leigh Wilbraham recording when he tried the PA5X ?
I wondered what that would sound like when played on the Genos but I don't recognise the tune.
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I thought this was a Yamaha arranger keyboard forum... what is all this talk about Korg? There are several threads going right now about the Pa5x. Isn't there a Korg forum?
???
Joe H
Hi Joe
I have posted a couple of links to PA5X demo’s, my reasoning is simple.
I thought many people would want to see what new features are coming to market.
I am not interested in whether one KB sounds better than another or try to convince people to change brands. My interest is solely in the changing technology.
1. Seamless switching.
2. Dual Style engines - novel but could be very useful. Leigh has done another demo on this alone.
3. 16 assignable pads - It’s like having a V3 Console already built in.
Bill
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Hi Bill :
You are right : the keyboard technology has been improved again in 2022.
I am waiting now what the world arranger keyboard leader, Yamaha, will bring us, Yamaha players, in 2023.
I am convinced Yamaha will launch a new highend keyboard next year that will surprise the entire arranger business. :)
We need to be patient ...
Our patience will be rewarded !
Take care, JH
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Jeff's right. In the meantime, we still have an amazing arranger in the Genos. Yamaha probably has a few 5X keyboards in their autopsy room and are tearing them apart to see how they can make the Genos 2 even better.
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Yamaha is probably reading this and getting a big belly laugh right now for sure.... ;D
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Korg Dealers UK all received initial demonstration products plus backup stock to sell.
UK dealers are now stating On Back Order so sales appear to be active.
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Hi Graham :
Thank you for this interesting information.
Is there a particular reason why our competitor has selected UK dealers to introduce the new arranger keyboard on Y-Tube ?
The UK has excellent professional musicians who are demonstrating the new competitive keyboards very, very well.
Might that be the reason ?
Plse advise.
Many thanks, JH
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Jeff. NO! I said UK because that is where I live.
Adam (Webinar) happen to mention UK because that where he is based.
But I think all Korg retailers where ever, would have received the same initial selling stocks.
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The UK has a good arranger market and a well informed dealer network. Certainly better than I have generally seen in the USA where its quite hard to find a dealer even in in a big city like Houston that has a choice of arrangers you can try, never mind people that can competently demonstrate one.
Mike
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...great sound for Commodore 64 sound.
Ah this brings back memories, the amazing SID chip on this computer was incredible and it even blew away some of the 16 bit computers sound chip (such as the Atari ST), which ironically used a Yamaha YM2149F sound chip.
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We have no exclusive Korg dealers in The Netherlands.
We have no exclusive Yamaha dealers either.
Most of them are traditional small family owned music shops selling popular music instruments and equipment.
Regards, JH
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The UK has a good arranger market and a well informed dealer network. Certainly better than I have generally seen in the USA where its quite hard to find a dealer even in in a big city like Houston that has a choice of arrangers you can try, never mind people that can competently demonstrate one.
Mike
I can vouch for Mike's observation about availability of arranger keyboards for demo in the USA. Over the years, I've visited music stores in many major metro areas and high end arrangers are nowhere to be seen or played. There is low end product, sure, because inventory turns over fast. Tyros or Genos, fuggedaboutit!
In my experience, even low end Korg are impossible to find. If I still lived on the east coast, I would drive 150 miles to AudioProCT in Milford, CT where Frank often has the TOTL Yamaha and Korg side-by-side. Maybe I need to drive up to Vancouver and see Mark at Tom Lee. (And get some Nando's :-) ) This side of the border is an arranger wasteland -- pandemic hasn't helped...
Sorry to sound so negative. It would be a kick to try the Pa5x just for grins. Not shopping for a new board. (Sorry, Mark.) Nando's, yes! :D
-- pj
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Over the years, I've visited music stores in many major metro areas and high end arrangers are nowhere to be seen or played.
This is how I ended up buying a Motif XF7 in 2011 when I got started with synths. None of the local music stores in Portland, Oregon had any arrangers, and I didn’t even know the category existed. Neither did the music store staff, as far as I could tell.
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None of the local music stores in Portland, Oregon had any arrangers, and I didn’t even know the category existed.
That's nuts! Arrangers have been around since the early 80s. I'd be curious as to how they don't even know about them.
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Houston has 6 million people but I don’t know of a single music store where they have high end arrangers and somebody who knows how to demo one.
Piano stores usually have knowledgeable people and among the acoustic and digital pianos they might have CVPs but not typical arrangers like Genos.
Mike
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Does that mean America can only buy arranger keyboards from web shops only ?
Plse advise. Thanks, JH
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When I ended up purchasing my S950, I too found that stores with in-store arrangers were pretty limited. Half of the reason I went with the S950 vs. the PA900 was because I couldn't find any local stores with a PA900 in stock for me to try out. The Colorado Blvd Guitar Center in Denver is where I purchased the S950, which they had in stock and on display. They also got out an S750 for me to try out. That said, there is a music store near us with Clavinova CVP pianos on display. I don't know if they carry the Genos. They don't carry any Korg however.
I would love to see a service allowing people to try out keyboards virtually. Whether via audio streaming, MIDI-over-IP, and/or some custom interface to the keyboard's UI... it would have latency but considerable value. The Tyros/Genos/PA#x keyboards are apparently low volume high margin products, and a store offering this type of service could make some serious cash off of these things.
- Greg
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Does that mean America can only buy arranger keyboards from web shops only ?
Plse advise. Thanks, JH
Not quite , but close. Some Musical Instrument stores might have one or two middle of the range arrangers, probably no TOTL, and more than likely no-one that can demo them. It’s difficult to find somewhere to try them. The keyboard section at my local Guitar Center has digital pianos and some very low cost keyboards, basically - what I would see as ‘toys’.
In Scotland where I have my other home, there are several music stores within reasonable distance with arrangers to try and nearly always competent piano and keyboard players to demo.
BTW , there are much more people in Houston than in whole of Scotland! Go figure. My guess is that the UK developed a much stronger home organ culture than North America and this carried into arrangers.
Mike
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Just For INFO:...One of my Keyboard contacts sent this to me.
KORG PA5X IS SOLD OUT ALL OVER THE WORLD
I have daily checked all distributors of Korg all over the world, and have never seen anything like it before:
SOLD OUT
It was already possible to order on 1 July, but on 8 June the delivery capacity was blown up, with the result that no one can deliver until the beginning of September at the earliest.
SOMETHING LIKE THAT HAS NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE.
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This happens because Korg improved their sound quality with this PA5X, display graphics are definitely much better than previous versions, those two style players, SST, 8GB user RAM, and so on. More than that, is known that Korg exposed all parameters in sound editing and the style creator has much more functionalities than Yamaha's style creator. But, as maybe you know, in PA5X at this moment Style Creator has some missing functions than previous versions, like Velocity, Cut, Copy pages.. those one are missing, which make the job harder right now, you have to use step edit to edit a range of keys which take a lot of time. But I know Korg responds quickly to user's requests and an OS update maybe will be compiled soon.
For long-time Yamaha users, which love their sounds and the way of doing things, it will be hard to change to Korg, because it is another way of doing things. Even if they made those new improvements, most of Yamaha users will stay on Yamaha, no matter what Korg has done :)
Regards,
Vali
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If this is true, kudos to Korg, because it has managed to convince users of the quality of its product.
More likely supply is just very short.
A couple of UK dealers have said in their review videos that they only have one ...
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Not quite , but close. Some Musical Instrument stores might have one or two middle of the range arrangers, probably no TOTL, and more than likely no-one that can demo them. It’s difficult to find somewhere to try them. The keyboard section at my local Guitar Center has digital pianos and some very low cost keyboards, basically - what I would see as ‘toys’.
In Scotland where I have my other home, there are several music stores within reasonable distance with arrangers to try and nearly always competent piano and keyboard players to demo.
BTW , there are much more people in Houston than in whole of Scotland! Go figure. My guess is that the UK developed a much stronger home organ culture than North America and this carried into arrangers.
Mike
All the guitar centers / banjo marts I've been to are exactly like this, basically all the low end piano/keyboard stuff are out on display while guitars of all price ranges are on display (hence the name haha). The only thing remotely interesting is the MODX they had on display few weeks back. But, they had no PSR models, not even the cheap ones.
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This is quite normal with most new Flag ship releases. The shops get one each to demonstrate and sell from. Over here it seems to be most only have the 61 note,
Certainly dose not mean they are going to outstrip sales. From what I've seen and heard I am not that impressed.
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As I reflect on it, when I bought any of my Tyros and Genos models, I always had to ask the store order one. They never stocked them because those keyboards attracted a very select market. In fact, whenever those keyboards arrived, I showed the sales guys what they sounded like because they barely knew how to turn them on. Thankfully, Yamaha made it easy to play the newest release without having to do a deep dive into the manuals. I could turn them on and start playing using the default settings. The architecture was basically the same.
As for the 5X being sold out, the same thing will happen with Genos 2 - guaranteed. Living in Canada won't help either. I believe it was at least four months after Geno was released in Europe and Asia before the first model arrived in Toronto. I bought the second one that had arrived in Canada. Meanwhile, the U.S. which is 40 kms from our border, across Lake Ontario had dozens of them months ahead of us. By the time I got mine, the folks in Europe and Asia had seen one half of their warranties gone >:(!!
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Good point, Eileen. From what I've heard so far, the sounds are either excellent or very dated with no life to them unlike the Genos.
Also, the Genos operating system is written from the point of view of a musician. The 5X operating system is written from the point of view of a computer geek. Not good. The 5X learning curve looks to be right up there with that of the Montage.
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Yes Lee,
Having once owned a korg and realising how fiddley is was to set up something that was so easy on a Yamaha I did not keep it long. Still each to there own as they say.
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Dear forum members,
In my response on July 08, I wrote that I'm going to a private demo of the Pa5x next Sunday.
Because there have been random statements about the new Korg the competitor of the Genos
I want to share my first findings with you about the Korg Pa5x:
First of all, the housing, controls, screen & keyboard are, as according to Korg standards, of professional and very solid quality, so absolutely nothing to complain about! Something we Genos players can only dream of!
Korg has taken care of the entire software, and indeed they have looked at Genos without further ado.
The structure of the software was difficult and unclear up to Pa4x, something has been done about it so that it is now almost comparable to Genos.
Korg has also taken care of the sounds and there is a noticeable improvement, I am told that sounds have been taken over from the Nautilus.
The Pianos, Organ(Drawbars) are simply very good! the instruments of nature are also generally comparable to Genos.
The styles have also been overhauled, and now also have more Live Feeling due to the drums that are remarkably good.
A comment has already been made about the sound quality, the Pa5x has a “Finalizer” function, when it is switched on it gets a real boost!
I myself had the opportunity to play it for 30 min, and my honest opinion is that the Genos now has a formidable competitor!!!
PS: I recommend Yamaha to also take a look at the Pa5x, starting with the outside.
A keyboard of this price range '4k' must be made of solid material.
No Tupperware made in China conditions!!!
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Musicman01, thanks for your report.
One thing you did not mention was keyboard feel. Or which version you tested. One of the dealer internet demos I saw tested the 88 note version and that the keyboard was much better than Genos and had full size keys. The 76 note may be more like Genos which has slightly mini keys and a decidedly non piano feel, maybe you can comment on that.
Sound quality needs to be heard first hand, but most comments have been positive. David Read (Dalekwars) has added an 88 note Korg Nautilus piano to his SX and has been very pleased by it, so I suspect piano sound/feel at least is similar to his Nautilus and therefore first class.
I have not had a chance to try one, so there is still a lot to find out and I am certain that at individual voice and feature level there will be pros and cons compared to Genos, that is always the case. Overall it looks to be up there, but final preferences may boil down to details and perceived learning curve, and choice will be quite individual.
But from what I see so far this keyboard has a better look to it than previous models including Genos, certainly more to my taste, seems solidly built, and is price competitive. The 88 key weighted keyboard version has no competition in portable arrangers - yet!
Yamaha will up their game at some point, and so it will continue. That’s great for all arranger enthusiasts. One thing I don’t understand, is why some are so defensive about the Genos. Nothing has changed on your Genos, if you liked it before it’s still the same. My CVP didn’t change because there is something new out there. If you try the new Korg and decide you still prefer Genos, that’s no issue. If you decide the Korg might be a step up, and you like it better, you now have choice, - how can this be bad?
Mike
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.....x..... One thing I don’t understand, is why some are so defensive about the Genos. Nothing has changed on your Genos, if you liked it before it’s still the same. My CVP didn’t change because there is something new out there. If you try the new Korg and decide you still prefer Genos, that’s no issue. If you decide the Korg might be a step up, and you like it better, you now have choice, - how can this be bad?
Mike
@Mike, that's a good statement, I fully agree!
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I think Korg forgot to include speakers with this new keyboard for the home users. ;D
Right?
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I wonder why most people are always comparing the new competitor's arranger keyboard with our Genos ?
Our Genos has been launched in 2017 - 5 years ago ! - and the competitor's keyboard in June 2022 !
IMHO the Genos2 should be compared with their PA5X !
Did we ever compare our Genos with their PA4X ?
We never did and neither did they. ;)
Best wishes, JH
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Did we ever compare our Genos with their PA4X ?
We never did and neither did they. ;)
Best wishes, JH
[
No the Tyros 5 got the bashing for that
Cheers Terry
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I think Korg forgot to include speakers with this new keyboard for the home users. ;D
Right?
TOTL arrangers have never included built in speakers in recent years. But like Tyros and Genos, Korg have a very neat clip on speaker set as an accessory that fits the PaX5. You can see it on some of the dealer demos. Don’t know how it sounds, but it looks very neat, like a tv soundbar.
Jeff - comparing equivalent models is normal, what’s wrong with that? Of course people compared Genos with PaX4. And “our Genos”…?? What are you talking about? Yamaha make a Genos like Ford make a Focus, if I like it I buy it, if not I buy something else. There is no “our” about it.
Mike
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I have a Korg Pa5x and I think it's an exceptional instrument.
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Hi Mike,
Just to answer your question, the Pa5x I was able to test was a 61 key version. We are spoiled with Genos with our 76 key version. I don't understand why people still want to opt for a 61-key version. The keyboard was very good, which is to be expected as it is from the Fatar brand. Yamaha would also be better off shopping there. What really struck me was the dynamics and controllability and aftertouch.
I myself am not immediately waiting for a possible Genos2 because the current Genos meets almost all my current wishes. Only the build quality I find terrible if you compare with Pa4 and 5x.
I've also been told that features such as Midi to Style (creatorbot) will return in one of the next updates.
Should I consider buying a Pa5x? I certainly don't rule that out because it's a very good keyboard! In that case, I'll wait and see what Yamaha will do in the near future, but if it's again a plastic box with a made in China look, I'll definitely choose the Pa5x!
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I wonder why most people are always comparing the new competitor's arranger keyboard with our Genos ?
Our Genos has been launched in 2017 - 5 years ago ! - and the competitor's keyboard in June 2022 !
IMHO the Genos2 should be compared with their PA5X !
Did we ever compare our Genos with their PA4X ?
We never did and neither did they. ;)
Best wishes, JH
Factcheck @Jeff, don't know who you mean with 'we, but 'we' did long ago, pls. do a search Pa4x vs. Genos ;-)
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Thanks for the info musicman. Yamaha found out from Tyros 5 that it wasn’t worth supporting the 61 key version. Maybe the 88 key will also become the norm for TOTL arrangers. This Korg is definitely strong competition for Yamaha. But like you I am not in the market for a new arranger, my CVPs are perfect for my needs.
Mike
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I find it difficult to determine if the 5X is a good keyboard when the demos are played using mostly Dance, Hip-Hop, Synth, or some other modern genre. I don't play that kind of music, so I have no frame of reference. When I heard Peter Baartmans demo the Genos, he played mostly music that I play. He sold me.
If someone as good as Baartmans were to play the older tunes through the 5X, it may capture my interest. So far, all I know is the 5X is an excellent keyboard for playing the modern stuff. The older genres are an unknown and I suspect have received very little interest from Korg.
Lee (and anyone else) if you are wondering how the PaX5 is for “real” music, this demo might interest you. It’s on the 76 key version and his overall use of an arranger is stellar. The tango about half way and the Classical guitar medley near the end are both quite brilliant.
These demos are coming thick and fast now.
Mike
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voUmUAGoHqo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voUmUAGoHqo)
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Those awful saxes YUK!! Bland
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Yeah, I however don't know the overall soundquality of the voices. That judgement can I make when I plays the Pa5X by myself. Everyone has a different hearing and taste, Don't forget it is all digital and artificial.... i remember the first critique on the genos or sx that the sound was dull. Then there was a search for the Gold EQ, which makes the sound better. So maybe it is also something with the pa5x? Do not know, probably here also a lot of tweaking to do. i wait and once see and hear it life. In the meantime we have to do it what YT offers us. And listening to Alois Mueller is not a punishment😏
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John - But you could also say “wonderful pianos”. Thing is you can’t judge these kind of keyboards on one voice. And I don’t hear the sax as “awful” anyway, even if I agree the Genos sax does sound a bit better. Neither do I think the Genos piano is awful, as some do, although the PaX5 seems clearly better to my ear. So it’s all a bit individual when it comes to specific voices, and the piano voice may matter to some people way more than sax.
The thing is that these TOTL keyboards have all reached a point where the main voices are either good or really good. That’s progress. The biggest difference is not in the keyboard or voice, but in who is playing it.
Genos is great, but it’s just a keyboard, there was always going to be a better one come along one day. Obviously the jury is still out on whether this Korg is better, but honestly, on what I see so far it looks that way to me. But is it enough better to splash out money, go thru a learning curve, maybe wait a year for delivery ?.?. ….. who knows?
But its not like your wife or best friend being criticized here, there’s no emotion involved. It’s just a piece of hardware.
Mike
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Yamaha is better, Korg is better, Yamaha is better, Korg is better, Yamaha is better, Korg is better, it seems to go on and on, it is not goiing on and on, it is, it is not, it is, it is not, it is, haha, not haha, hahaha, not hahaha, ;D not ;D, ;D >:( :)
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Lee (and anyone else) if you are wondering how the PaX5 is for “real” music, this demo might interest you. It’s on the 76 key version and his overall use of an arranger is stellar. The tango about half way and the Classical guitar medley near the end are both quite brilliant.
These demos are coming thick and fast now.
Mike
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voUmUAGoHqo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voUmUAGoHqo)
Just listened to the demo. To be honest the first song played, the "big band" style sounded pretty good, and the "ensemble" was also good. But the Sax, I have to agree is not as good as the Yamaha sound, very "nasally". The rest of the songs played, the styles take a nosedive in quality, felt as if I was listening to previous Tyros (not even T5 level). But even then the preprogrammed styles don't sound "full", they seem to accentuate the drums way too much and the drums don't sound that good. IMO I think even my SX900 drums sounds better lol...
Just my opinions.
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We are here on a Genos Forum, and it is normal to talk (and especially whine) about a competitive instrument.
As for the new saxes, I haven't seen them mentioned anywhere, so you still haven't heard them!
That's why go listen to it live and possibly play it yourself before commenting!!!
There have been many complaints in the past about the organ section and pianos in the Genos, well korg has outdone Genos here! And John, if you would even bother to listen to the new saxes, be careful not to fall off your chair!! And you will pray that these will also come in the future Genos(2) as well as the Organs and Pianos.
There is also someone here commenting on the drums, owning an SX900 that doesn't even have Revodrums yet, the Round Robin drumsounds are at least equivalent to the Revodrums!
And now I'm going to have fun with my Genos! :)
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Round Robin Drums no doubt copied from Yamaha Revo Drums Quite a few Yamaha ideas seem to make there way into korg.
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So what?! Good to them implementing those things. That means you can have a Genos in that metal Korg design with many things I read hear on this forum that users want in Genos 2. ;D
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The problem with assessing sound is we are all accustomed to listening to digital voices so anything new voice wise produced with up to date technology often to what we have become used to does not sound right.
Having worked in Sound and speaker manufacturers most of my working life,
(can't believe I was being paid for a job I loved).
A fair percentage of my working hours was spent going and listening to live instruments to refresh one's Ears & Brain.
The people who criticize a new keyboard sound are simply doing so because their ears/brain have been locked on to the sound of the keyboard they are used to playing and will not like the sound of a real instrument.
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The people who criticize a new keyboard sound are simply doing so because their ears/brain have been locked on to the sound of the keyboard they are used to playing and will not like the sound of a real instrument.
Amen! As to sound comparisons, my first thought was "Better or just different?" Listening to videos is akin to auditioning different preset voices. If I don't like a preset, I just move on...
When I play with a real acoustic flute, oboe, trumpet, whatever, I try not to embarrass myself by playing the synthesized version. :) Sound is only one concern -- play-ability, response and the key-to-sound connection are critical concerns for a musical instrument. (That's why I'm an SA/SA2 fan.)
As to certain new features like round-robin drums, arranger-world is finally catching up to VST/software instruments. VST-world is still far ahead in many ways.
All the best to everyone -- pj
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Simply the Genos has more natural sounding instruments ;)
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For those who are realistic and have no prejudices, finally a worthy link that gives a more or less realistic picture of the qualities of the Korg Pa5x!
no extra or exaggerated reverb and other extra effects here to make the korg sound warm!!
A demo of “Sud Claviers” :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFlHXE4rI9Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFlHXE4rI9Y)
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Hi John :
As soon as the Genos2 will be on the market, we do no longer have to discuss which keyboard is the best in the world : THE ONE AND ONLY. ;)
It might be wishful thinking but I hope there will be at least 2 versions : 61 and 76 keys.
An extra size of 88 keys would be miracle ! ;D
Those who are patient, will be rewarded !
Keep dreaming and smiling ! :D
Best regards, JH
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Round Robin Drums no doubt copied from Yamaha Revo Drums Quite a few Yamaha ideas seem to make there way into korg.
The facts that one gets ideas from another and vice versa is no new situation. It's probably helping progress and developement for the next models.
If I'm not totally wrong, the 'live audio drums' was to find in BiaBox before Genos and Korg added it.
If looking at this video, don't you think there is a few things that Yamaha could or would like to sneak into the next Genos XX as well?
I found this video from Korg UK very informative and interesting, especially when it comes to styles, and endless possibilities:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NmeXzieR4U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NmeXzieR4U)
TOTL arrangers such as Genos and Korg in the same rack must be a heavenly mix. In fact, I'm very tempted...... :) ;D
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Hi John :
As soon as the Genos2 will be on the market, we do no longer have to discuss which keyboard is the best in the world : THE ONE AND ONLY. ;)
It might be wishful thinking but I hope there will be at least 2 versions : 61 and 76 keys.
An extra size of 88 keys would be miracle ! ;D
Those who are patient, will be rewarded !
Keep dreaming and smiling ! :D
Best regards, JH
Ehh well, that's what I mean: it's not 'we' who keep drawing the discussion to 'what's best'. In this case it is 'you' who stirs up the discussion… it is 'me' about a fair comparison with regard to top-end keyboards and the developments in this regard, which benefits the consumer. He/she has choices. And.. '.. will be rewarded'? Yamaha /Korg gets that reward ($€) , 'we' have to pay for it ;)
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For those who are realistic and have no prejudices, finally a worthy link that gives a more or less realistic picture of the qualities of the Korg Pa5x!
no extra or exaggerated reverb and other extra effects here to make the korg sound warm!!
A demo of “Sud Claviers” :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFlHXE4rI9Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFlHXE4rI9Y)
Thanks for the link. That's one **** of a keyboard. This guy and Leigh Wilbraham show that it's not just a board for modern music.
As for the "best in the world", there will never be one board which can be the best for everyone. Every board has good sounds and styles along with poor sounds and styles.
I play MOR music and this board would suit me as well as my Genos although I've never used Korg operating system.
For those whose brand loyalty and prejudices, rule out any other board, more fool them. It happens with cars too but that's another story.
Why does there have to be a best? You can have 2, 3, 4, or more kids and love every one of them.
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Hi Ton :
Thank you for your comments.
Being a very proud Yamaha loyalist, a Yamaha player for more than 20 years, it is not a secret I will only go for a Yamaha. :D
There is no doubt in my mind this new competitor's arranger is a good instrument but ... not for me.
Best wishes, JH
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Simply the Genos has more natural sounding instruments ;)
Maybe some, but those pianos, electric pianos, clarinet, organs, violin ….and many others on the PaX5 sound excellent to me. And some of the new PaX features are very attractive.. the smooth voice changing, the very easy, quite intuitive way of setting up registrations, the easy voice edits ..all look good. And simple things like chord changes shown on intros and endings.
And what I like is that they all appeal to traditional arranger players. On this forum we see constant requests for workstation and other very esoteric type features, like interfaces to music production software, etc that come from a very small number of non typical arranger players. These features on the PaX5 are all useful to a large % of arranger players. I think they are smart.
I am not biased or in any way pushing Korg equipment, just acknowledging what seems an excellent keyboard. Yamaha may well react, but we don’t know that yet, we can only judge what’s in front of us.
Mike
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For those who are realistic and have no prejudices, finally a worthy link that gives a more or less realistic picture of the qualities of the Korg Pa5x!
no extra or exaggerated reverb and other extra effects here to make the korg sound warm!!
A demo of “Sud Claviers” :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFlHXE4rI9Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFlHXE4rI9Y)
Pianos sound very good in this demo. Kudos to the other sounds, but some of the sounds are still nasally (again the sax, now add the violin). The styles picked in this demo are better than the last one I heard (big band, latin, ballad), kinda mixed on the fast tempo styles though.
Overall a better demo. But I don't see this as sounding "warm", more like a sharp smiley face on the GEQ, more so peaky in the treble range.
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mixermixer Your Quote.
Overall a better demo. But I don't see this as sounding "warm", more like a sharp smiley face on the GEQ, more so peaky in the treble range.
The very first time I ever heard a live orchestra my thoughts were, where did all that top end come from, but after many years of listening experiences I now know that was correct.
Reproduced sounds are not perfect but manufacturers keep trying to obtain better quality voice samples. Reproduced sounds are improving.
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We can overstate this exact duplication of a real instrument. The fact is that not all saxes sound the same, not all pianos sound the same, not all violins sound$ the same, certainly no two orchestras sound exactly the same …. We all have bias in what we think sounds good, And enthusiasts often hear stuff or think they hear stuff that most people don’t notice.
For me, exact or perfect instrument duplication is not that important, because it’s mostly subjective. Provided the instrument sound is pretty good, then it’s up to the player to make it sound convincing.
Mike
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mikf. One thing is certain its brought a lot of keyboard forums to life.
Interesting many players with open minds have both Yamaha & Korg and enjoy them both.
Pity Roland have dropped into the background.
The rest of this year is going to be interesting.
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Hi Guys :
BAD KORG NEWS ?
Watch following PA Korg video ... I am shocked.
True or not true ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHIM9eIBmcQ
Best regards, JH
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I consider the video above to be a propaganda campaign.
Never believe anything with these type of unfounded YouTube videos.
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Graham :
Why and ... what might be the intention of these YT video makers ?
I wonder if Korg will react ?
Regards, JH
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... what might be the intention of these YT video makers ?
The intention is most likely as for many of the YT'ers, to collect clicks and earn money.
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Its beyond me what kind of person would spend the time on making a non event video like this. If someone has the time an inclination they could probably make similar videos about any product in the world. Korg will give it the same amount of credence the rest of us should - none-- or less than none.
Mike
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Hi Guys :
BAD KORG NEWS ?
Watch following PA Korg video ... I am shocked.
True or not true ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHIM9eIBmcQ
Best regards, JH
Hi M8
Not only that. For me the face of the keyboard layout looks cramped to me, also the buttons are small and very tightly spaced.
You could easily miss buttons when changing on the fly.
Summing up, the pianos and a few other instruments sound ok , but the Genos is well layed out and easier to get to registrations, Styles , pads etc
The Genos is a no brainer really,way out in front.
All the best
John
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ugawoga Quote, For me the face of the keyboard layout looks cramped to me, also the buttons are small and very tightly spaced.
ugawoga...Why is that bothering you because as you won't be buying one !!!.
This Article has been going on too long.
Its time for this thread to be closed.
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ugawoga Quote, For me the face of the keyboard layout looks cramped to me, also the buttons are small and very tightly spaced.
ugawoga...Why is that bothering you because as you won't be buying one !!!.
Roger & Jo.
This Article has been going on to too long.
Its time for this thread to be closed.
Graham, Why does it bother you so much what John's opinions are? Surely he should be allowed to express his opinions?
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One thing is for sure this new Pa5x has livened up keyboard forums including this one. Here's my 2 cents and I believe I may have written this somewhere else. First I have not demoed a Pa5x. Thru the years I have moved back and forth between Yamaha and Korg arrangers, everything from the PSR 3000, Tyros2, 4, 5 s900, s910, SX900 and Genos. From Korg PA800, Pa2x, Pa3x and now the Pa4x. As much as I have enjoyed Korg and still have the Pa4x, I'm partial to the Yamaha line of arrangers. As someone who studied piano I will say though the touch of the keybed on the Pa4x is more suited to my playing style than that of the Genos. I will also add that to my aging ears, the Grand Pianos and the Organs on the Korg are better sounding. If I really want true piano action I just head over to the Claivnova CVP307 or the DGX670.
So far as the Pa5x being sold out I believe it's more of a supply problem. I had to wait about 3 months for my DGX670 in 2021, before deciding on that I had my eyes on the Yamaha P515 and Roland FP60x, the real problem there were very limited supplies. I finally did find the DGX670 after looking for 3 months.
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ugawoga Quote, For me the face of the keyboard layout looks cramped to me, also the buttons are small and very tightly spaced.
ugawoga...Why is that bothering you because as you won't be buying one !!!.
This Article has been going on too long.
Its time for this thread to be closed.
I hate to see people being ripped off .
The Korg sound is bland and sounds are not real or near to it in my view, only the piano's and Strings.
Do not worry Chris as i get the same commenting on Swindon Town Football Club.
Now i am getting votes with the Jockster to take over as manager of Swindon Town.
I would bring back Don Rogers!!! and Mick Summerbee ex Man City
Well, that would really be in the early 70's
They would still beat todays players even on a zimmer frame!!
All the best
John :) ;)
Ps The moral of the story is "It is all fun and general banter"!!! ;D
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Hi
The Genos did not sound good at all with all those beginning videos and that is down to the recordings.
When listening to demos on utube etc ,you are not hearing the full sound as It should be.
...........
All the Best
john :)
Psst @John, ehh.. do you remember? ;D ;D
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Hi Guys :
BAD KORG NEWS ?
Watch following PA Korg video ... I am shocked.
True or not true ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHIM9eIBmcQ
Best regards, JH
Not "fake news" per se, but certainly overblown and clickbait. The complaints include lack of communication between users and developers... that's true of any brand, any keyboard, not specifically the PA5x. Yes Yamaha is trying with their own forum, but at the end of the day you basically have thousands of voices shouting what they want, and 1 or 2 people sifting through all the suggestions.
On the other hand, his complaints about his PA1000 having limited sample slots is very true... but maybe they've changed that on PA5x. On Yamahas that are YEM compatible, there's maybe 13k of header data on the earlier boards like the PSRs970, 61k on the Genos... that essentially means there's that many pieces of samples, or styles, registrations, etc you can install. It's not a fixed array, so you can either fill your memory with a few large samples, or thousands of small ones. On the PA1000 and earlier, because the number of slots was a fixed array, Korgs with more memory meant you could put bigger samples in, but not more. For practical purposes that would be like Yamaha allowing less than 2 full packs to be installed on a kb; you could do 1 full pack and most of a 2nd one, regardless of how much sample ram you had.
But maybe the PA5x has finally gone to variable arrays for samples as well. We'll see; but it would be silly (to me) to release a kb with the largest user sample area by a wide margin, and not allow you to put more samples in! Which means it's a genuine complaint about previous Korgs, yes. No idea if it applies to the PA5x yet.
His complaint about Korg's entire line being the same sound chip, for vastly different $$$? also true. But Korg is very transparent about that; they want stuff you created on the top and bottom board of a series to be fully compatible; what you pay for is build quality/keys/ features, including things like number of ins, outs, harmonizer/vocoder, etc (I can see people having loads of fun with the new Shift Audio auto tune, T-Pain style!). That's not a secret they've been hiding, and they're fully transparent when it comes to that, so more of a clickbait complaint. But yes PA4x. PA1000, PA700 actually have the exact same sound libraries.
In other words, some genuine PA1000 complaints, but otherwise it's just click bait.
Mark
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Hey Mark :
Thank you very much for your useful and wise comments.
I am very impressed by your arranger keyboard' s knowledge and your professional analysis.
Best wishes, JH
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Thanks for the link, Mike. I was away for a week and just got back.
I've heard that demo before. There's still something very dated about the brass and sax section sounds. Overall, the Genos equivalents are far better to my aging ears. And to be fair to Korg, YouTube demos are tainted by the way they process their sound. They tend to be compressed and despite that, some of their sound comes booming across while other signals are very low.
I think we all need to forget these online demos and get to a store where the 5X is being played by a pro over a decent sound system. Same with the Genos 2, if it ever gets here ;D.
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John - a man sees the manager of Swindon Town walking down the street with a brand new PaX5 under his arm. What are you doing with that he asks. I got it for the team says the manager. Boy, you drive a hard bargain says the man. :D :D :D 8)
Mike
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Mark's quote : " Not "fake news" per se, but certainly overblown and clickbait "
Hi Mark :
Up to now I saw a couple of commercial video's and a significant price increase of the competitor's arranger compared to its predecessor.
My question :
Is the 5X completely different than its predecessor ( and the other models ) ?
If so, how different is it ( except the addition of the 88 keys model ) ?
Your reply would be highly appreciated.
Thanks and best regards, JH
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Mark's quote : " Not "fake news" per se, but certainly overblown and clickbait "
Hi Mark :
Up to now I saw a couple of commercial video's and a significant price increase of the competitor's arranger compared to its predecessor.
My question :
Is the 5X completely different than its predecessor ( and the other models ) ?
Your reply would be highly appreciated.
Thanks and best regards, JH
It's very different, in the same way as the Genos is very different to the Tyros range.
Some novel ideas on it and the seamless sound switching is brilliant (although it's only something that Technics did more than 20 years ago).
It's price compares well with the Genos too.
As a committed Yamaha fan, I am surprised that you want to know.
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Maybe it is informative regarding this subject and mainly based on facts therefore if you are interested, pls. have a look in the post, I'v linked below
https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,63454.msg483768.html#msg483768
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Hey Duffy :
Thanks for your reply.
You are absolutely right : I am even a lot more than just a Yamaha fan. ;)
The more I know about the competition, the more I believe Yamaha is the only world leader. :)
Have a nice weekend ! JH
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Well to me just owning and playing a Yamaha keyboard should tell you the qualities you get with it. So to me reading reams of stories about what other keyboards do is pointless and time wasting. Have been playing Yamaha organs and keyboards for the last forty years and during that time have tried other makes of organs and keyboards but have always come back to Yamaha because to me personally they are the best and easiest to set up and very reliable and the service in the UK is excellent. The sounds and styles beat any competitor and are very easy to edit to your own taste.
For those who like to multi track there performance it really dose sound like you are listening to a real orchestra playing. That says it all to me.
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Hi Jeff,
I used to feel exactly the same about Technics and especially my KN7000.
I feel that my Genos is a good board but still has features which need addressing and Korg has dealt with those but I've never had a Korg.
Health problems mean that I won't be around to enjoy it if Yamaha don't move a bit quicker on dealing with these problems.
I think we all look for something a little different when we choose keyboards but what's right for us personally is the deal.
Nice weekend to you too which probably means keeping very cool
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Dear forum members,
As for the bad video of Korg, one can also turn it around.
What problems were there with Genos such as crashes and various functions and states not working properly? It is only from v 2.0 that it went well, see recently the problems with Midi.
How many have complained about the poor build quality and, for example, the names that disappeared from the buttons??
I can list a whole bunch of things that are still not good and missing from Genos!
Yamaha has always used the same sound library from Tyros 1 to 5 and Genos and always supplemented it a bit. Every three years a new model with minor changes, until now with Genos five years.
@ John, apparently you are a real specialist!
You are always commenting on anything and everything.
As long as one has not played your instrument and most likely has not seen it in real life
how on earth can one pass judgment?
PS: I'm a Genos player, not Korg!
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Having had my Genos right after the launch I can say it still looks like new and believe me I do a lot of button pushing. No sign of paint wearing off. I don't remember any crashes either. I know in the beginning there was a lot of user error as people got used to the new way of doing some things. Any new keyboard has a few glitches on launch but these were soon addressed and everything was fine.
I know when I had a new Korg it arrived here in a terrible state. Nothing worked as it should and I did not receive very good treatment when reporting this to them. It took a good couple of months to get it to where it should have been when I had it. They even sent there chief demonstrator to my home to try and help but he knew less on the workings than I did.
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Hey Musicman01 :
It is sad, it hurts and it is painful to hear you are so disappointed.
I am afraid nobody can help you out nor advise you.
You are the only one who is to solve this problem.
Maybe a Genos'successor will help you out ... who knows ?
Who am I to say that the competitor's new keyboard is not as good as your present keyboard ?
Why should I ? I am not a keyboard salesman but ... a retired old man.
BUT ... if you should decide to go for the competitor and sell your Genos, plse keep in mind
you have to deal with a complete new keyboard and different software ... all your Yamaha software collections will be useless.
Wish you all the best hoping you will make the right decision.
Best regards, JH
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Hey Duffy :
IMHO it will take at least one year before Yamaha will launch a new Genos' successor.
Hard to believe there will be another Genos' update in the meantime, I guess.
Why should I criticize the newest competitor's baby ?
There is no reason. I am a simple old enduser. :)
At my age, I will only buy Yamaha, nothing else anymore ... but ... for the time being, I am still interested in the arranger keyboard world and business.
Nothing and nobody is perfect ... and will never be, I guess.
Take care my friend !
Best wishes, JH
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Verry good pointed Jeff.
Buying a Korg PA5X right now after a long time as a Yamaha user, with a big archive of sound styles and midi, is a very big mistake in my opinion. If someone wants to buy PA5X I think it must wait for the missing functions to be implemented and those big bugs to be reparied
BTW, if you see on Youtube videos, PA5X's menu (voice-screen, style-screen a.s.o ) looks very closely to Genos's screen. That's why they said it is something else, not anymore the same as PA4X or predecesor. I think they have implemented the same way as Yamaha, by creating folders and put content on folders, for unlimited spaces.
Search youtube for official video presentation (video manuals). They explain good...
Regards,
Vali
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Dear Jeff, where does it say that I am disappointed???
I just answer to people who break something before they have heard and seen it properly!
I am very satisfied with my Genos, I have taught in keyboard clubs for a long time how to operate Yamaha & Korg arrangers and generally speaking, most users don't even read the manual yet. And yes Korg is more difficult to use, and is actually intended for more professional players because there are a lot more editing options than in Yamaha. And that makes it especially more difficult for the home players.
Korg is no better or worse than Yamaha but as Alois Muller said "Different" !
And (@ Eileen) as for any problems with Korg, there are always exceptions just like with Yamaha.
As I have already mentioned, I played on it and it was a very good experience, actually one should have the two in 1 keyboard.
PS:It is always the person behind the keyboard, not so much the keyboard itself!!
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Hi.
I have followed the posts here on the forum with interest as I myself was also interested in Korg PA5x.
Unfortunately, not many traders here in Sweden have it at home, but it is available online if you are interested.
I think previous models have not been suitable for my latitudes and not this new PA5x either.
Well I ordered a 61 key in from Stockholm. About: 60 miles from where I live on so-called open purchase. Had to pay 46,000 Swedish kronor and the keyboard was with me the day after the order.
The basket model can do about the same things as Genos but for me the thing was done after 4 hours. It will be back and now it is at the dealer again and I am waiting for the refund of the money.
For the average keyboard player, this is absolutely nothing if I may give advice.
Advanced but different approach to Genos and in my ears no sounds that knocked out my Genos.
Tommy from Sweden.
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Having had my Genos right after the launch I can say it still looks like new and believe me I do a lot of button pushing. No sign of paint wearing off. I don't remember any crashes either. I know in the beginning there was a lot of user error as people got used to the new way of doing some things. Any new keyboard has a few glitches on launch but these were soon addressed and everything was fine.
Since the most recent software update, I have had issues with default screens. The case looks ten years old (and I treat all my keyboards like a newborn) and some buttons are unreadable. This is definitely NOT typical of Yamaha quality. It's as though they never intended the Genos as a gigging machine. Both my Tyros keyboards never had these issues. Fortunately, the sound of the Genos is stellar, which I'll take over looks any day. Problem is, we used to have good quality cases, buttons, bug free software, AND sounds. Not now. Hopefully, Yamaha will address this in G2 and not add 10 kilos to the weight!
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Hi Lee :
Is your Genos hard to sell at a good price due to the black paint problem(s) ?
JH
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The only trouble I ever had with paint coming off was my Tyros Two. No problem though as Yamaha fitted a new case all free of charge and that one never gave any more trouble.
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Hi Jeff,
Where the problem with the Genos sub-standard case affects me is, when I trade it in. I've never sold any gear privately. I don't have time for "tire kickers."
My dealer has three levels of trade-in assessment: average, clean, extra clean. Obviously, the better the condition, the more you get for it. All my Yamaha trades have been in the extra clean category, which means the dealer will give me 85% of what they can sell it for. With the Genos, I'll be lucky to get a clean rating, which gives me far less on trade.
I treat my Genos with as much care as all previous keyboards. Thanks to Yamaha being cheap on the Genos finish, I'll lose. Plain and simple, the Genos case is a substandard piece of junk compared to their previous models. Maybe it doesn't matter when the machine sits in a nice clean living room all day but it's no good for gigging musicians. It's impossible to get rid of finger marks and common touch surfaces wear out very fast.
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The only trouble I ever had with paint coming off was my Tyros Two. No problem though as Yamaha fitted a new case all free of charge and that one never gave any more trouble.
I doubt Yamaha will give us all a new Genos case because they know they dropped the ball on this part of the keyboard.
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@musicman01, you told everything it has to be said with your comment.
:-X ;) :)
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Mark's quote : " Not "fake news" per se, but certainly overblown and clickbait "
Hi Mark :
Up to now I saw a couple of commercial video's and a significant price increase of the competitor's arranger compared to its predecessor.
My question :
Is the 5X completely different than its predecessor ( and the other models ) ?
If so, how different is it ( except the addition of the 88 keys model ) ?
Your reply would be highly appreciated.
Thanks and best regards, JH
Totally missed this; I don't *know* what's different on the PA5x yet, still waiting for ours. I do know that they have a dedicated guitar input in addition to the mic input (Genos has an extra line in, but that line in can't have amp modelling applied to it, Pa5x *can*) And based on its predecessors, the keys and case will phyiscally be top notch. But I haven't gotten my hands on one yet, so there's a lot I don't know! But yes, the PA4x, PA1000, PA700 were the same chip; just like the PA3x, PA900, PA600 were the same chip. The Pa5x is all new, but I can't break down what that means until I get my hands on one :)
The aluminum (aluminium in the UK) case of the PA4x, PA3x etc will undoubtedly be on the PA5x as well. Physically it's as nice as you could ask for: brushed metal is easy to clean, and doesn't really leave fingerprints, nor does it wear out. But it comes at the cost of extra weight: the Pa5x-76 is 10 lbs heavier than the Genos.
Mark
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Thanks a lot, Mark !
I am very interested in your comments after receipt and findings of the new 5X.
I am looking forward to reading them. :)
JH
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Quote Lee : I doubt Yamaha will give us all a new Genos case because they know they dropped the ball on this part of the keyboard.
[/i]
Hey Lee :
Did you contact your dealer and/or Yamaha ?
Best regards, JH
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Totally missed this; I don't *know* what's different on the PA5x yet, still waiting ours.
The aluminum (aluminium in the UK) case of the PA4x, PA3x etc will undoubtedly be on the PA5x as well. Physically it's as nice as you could ask for: brushed metal is easy to clean, and doesn't really leave fingerprints, nor does it wear out. But it comes at the cost of extra weight: the Pa5x-76 is 10 lbs heavier than the Genos.
Mark
8Gb compressed Ram for user samples (5Gb at current OS) plus 4Gb compressed memory of local samples
with streaming from on board Nand Ram
- 30.060 samples positions at current OS (doubled) , stereo sample takes one position.
- Over 10 GBs of factory samples with addons from Kronos sound libraries
- New EDS-XP sound engine with 24 Stereo Oscillators per Sound (from 24 mono of Pa4X)
that are shared 3 DNC controllers (main DNC2 engine is still the same as in Pa4X)
- 160 notes polyphony
- 10 insert effects (max 3 per track) and 3 master effects per Style (8 tracks)
- 3 insert effects / 3 master effects per KBD set
- New Finalizer effect added of 4 parametric EQ , plus Hi Pass & Low pass , plus Limiter / compressor that can be
assigned in every style and create separate dynamics compared to old global Maxx EQ.
- New updated and enhanced Vocal Processor with ability of simultaneous 6 effects
- Graphical improvement of effects and compressors and their interface with more clarity and better overal
stereo-phony of EDS-XP sound engine with 4 additional Audio Outputs
- Dual players of 2 Independence styles or any , with XDS crossfade control
- Smooth Sound Transition (SST)
- Applied round-robin feature in DKs , fully editable
- Improved Drawbar Organ interface and controllers
- 16 multi-pads plus new controllers assignment using sliders
- 3 pedal inputs with Half-pedal support
- Guitar input with gain and guitar effects via effects interface
- Favorite mode with available 11 KBD sets that can be used in every Style
- Direct SET as a function do not exist anymore , since you can browse directly to any KST folder with Styles/KBD Set and will work as older
Direct SET of Pa4X , as usual without custom samples & custom SOUND folders that will never change in PaSeries if not loaded & preloaded in Ram.
- Double resolution screen compared to Pa4X , 800x480
- 3 USB 3.0 ports , 1 HDMI , RGB leds
- New loading/saving interface with partial elements
- SF2 support similar to Kronos for simple formats (not complex layers)
- Many improved sounds & DKs using new EDS-XP sound engine
- 88 weighted Keybed edition
- User Samples loading time is close to Pa4X Next (though new AM5728 Arm Proc is twice faster) since they use the same streaming
method and can exceed 90sec if 4Gb Ram is filled by user samples.
- Pa4X/1000 resources conversion to new KST format works excellent if resources have been exclusively made on those
models and not from older Pa like Pa800/2X with corrupted parameters that already had issues in Pa4X !
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Hi Jeff,
Regards Case. I sent pictures of it to Yamaha UK and it went from there.
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Thank you, Bill for this detailed information. :)
The X5 looks to be a complete new keyboard compared to their older models, am I right ?
Best wishes, JH
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I doubt Yamaha will give us all a new Genos case because they know they dropped the ball on this part of the keyboard.
Hey Lee:
Did you contact your dealer and/or Yamaha?
Best regards, JH
Hi Jeff,
When I took delivery of my Genos, I noticed a permanent marker flaw about one half centimeter long on the surface beside the Exit button. Someone along the way must have accidently wrote on the case. I tried everything to get it off but it just made it worse. I contacted my dealer, who contacted Yamaha. Yamaha offered to replace the case but due to the pathetic number of Genos keyboards allotted to Canada, I would have waited about 8 months to get one. Instead, they offered me a decent refund for my trouble ($300 CDN). I took the cash because I figured a small flaw may not affect the trade-in value, especially since I received compensation up front.
Little did I know the case was so cheap that even occasional touching of the surface would result in a ruined appearance, which would further decrease my trade-in value. That's why I doubt they'd give me another case at this time. I could ask. All they can say is "No" :D.
Edit Has anyone had success in cleaning up shiny wear marks on their Genos case? I fear this is off topic and should be asked elsewhere :o.
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.....The X5 looks to be a complete new keyboard compared to their older models, am I right ?
I think you're right, there is a lot of differences. New OS, new and also rebuildt styles, new file formats, new xx, new xxx, new xxxx, and so on....... ;D
For those who are interested to know more, there's a lot to read, soundfiles to listen at and videos to view here:
https://www.korg.com/us/products/synthesizers/pa5x/ (https://www.korg.com/us/products/synthesizers/pa5x/)
(Maybe a bit easier to go straight to the source rather than copy & paste details from one website to another.) ;) 8)
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Hey Lee :
Thank you for your reply. Very much appreciated. :)
Apparently you and Yamaha found a solution that has been accepted by both of you.
Very good news, I guess. :D
Best regards, JH
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Edit Has anyone had success in cleaning up shiny wear marks on their Genos case? I fear this is off topic and should be asked elsewhere :o.
[/quote]
Here is thet topic Lee
https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,58191.0.html
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Yes, Jeff. Yamaha treated me very well with regards to the flaw. In reality, if the existing case reduces my trade-in value, it may not be a huge amount because I can still try and negotiate with the store for a better deal. There should be some wiggle room because I've bought a ton of gear from them.
All we need now is the Genos 2 to see how it sounds :D!
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Thanks, Del!
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Thank you, Bill for this detailed information. :)
The X5 looks to be a complete new keyboard compared to their older models, am I right ?
Best wishes, JH
Hi Jeff, looking at your avatar you are playing guitar as well. I sometimes use the SX900 with my guitar, but it is ehh.. rather limited? What do you think of the Pa5x's potential regarding working with guitars? The video images are promising. It could replace a lot of effect gear?
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Hey Gunnar :
Thank you for your reply.
The X5 looks to be a very nice and powerful instrument.
There will be 3 key sizes : 61, 76 and 88. That is great, I guess !
However, the X5 does not look to be a plug-and-play arranger, IMO.
There is a lot of work to do for Yamaha to beat the competition but ... they will. :)
I am convinced Yamaha will introduce a Genos2 in 2023 that will overwhelm the entire arranger keyboard world.
Read my lips.
Best regards, JH
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Hey Ton,
I am a guitar player and for me an arranger keyboard is a nice instrument to make my backing tracks.
Up to now my Tyros4 did a great job.
However, I never tried to connect my guitars with my Yamaha keyboard. I am afraid I never will. :)
There ain't no reason to connect them.
I prefer to use my Marshall Guitar Amp.
For me guitars and arranger keyboards are such a different instruments.
Best regards, JH
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.... However, the X5 does not look to be a plug-and-play arranger, IMO.
The only 'keyboard' I ever had that was 'plug & play', was a cheap Botempi organ ages ago. ::) :D ;D
There is a certain learning curve to make modern arrangers to work regardless of what brands we choose.
Even stright out of the box, we need to tickle some buttons to start to play in other than pianomode.
I think PA5X is very exciting, and if Yamaha ever continue the Genos line furter, it going to be amazing.
If they leave the 'plastic fantastic' wrapping and build some more sturdy around the inventory, it will be even better.
As I said before, both PA?X and Genos in same rack most be heavely. We'll see...... 8)
* 'heavely' missed an n, my intention was to write heavenly
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I think PA5X is very exciting, and if Yamaha ever continue the Genos line furter, it going to be amazing.
If they leave the 'plastic fantastic' wrapping and build some more sturdy around the inventory, it will be even better.
As I said before, both PA?X and Genos in same rack most be heavely. We'll see...... 8)
I Quite Agree Gunner
I am in the market for a new board but I will delay the gratification until I see Yamaha's Response to the Korg
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Hi Guys :
All Tyros models ( 1 - 5 ) were made in plastic, colour : silver.
As far as I can remember there were never complaints in the past, am I right ?
I should not be too upset if Yamaha would change the black colour into silver again but who am I ?
At least the quality of the black paint needs to be improved significantly to avoid colour fading.
Increasing the weight of the case might not be liked, especially not by giggers, I guess.
JH
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.......
As I said before, both PA?X and Genos in same rack most be heavely. We'll see...... 8)
..or a Pa5x and a baby Genos ... 🤔😎
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Or rather, a PA5X & a Genos 2!! Now, that would be an unbeatable Combo!.
:D
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I'm afraid that it in 2024 will be a Pa6x and Genos 2 😏
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I consider this Pa5X downloads one of the better ones.
Fascinating the way his left hand plays an added extension of his right hand.
Interesting technique.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voUmUAGoHqo
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Correct @Graham, as I mentioned in another post: https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,63454.msg483812.html#msg483812 , but no harm to mention it again for those who missed it ;)
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Hi Jeff,
I used to feel exactly the same about Technics and especially my KN7000.
I feel that my Genos is a good board but still has features which need addressing and Korg has dealt with those but I've never had a Korg.
Health problems mean that I won't be around to enjoy it if Yamaha don't move a bit quicker on dealing with these problems.
I think we all look for something a little different when we choose keyboards but what's right for us personally is the deal.
Nice weekend to you too which probably means keeping very cool
Hi Duffy,
While we can all enjoy making the comparisons between one keyboard and another - I have to say your comment about your health can put life into perspective and it was sad for me to read this. I sincerely wish you well and hope that you will be with us for all time to come. In the meantime enjoy all the days that is given to each of us and whatever gives us some enjoyment we should try and get it in abundance.
My best wishes to you and for you.
Jim
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I consider this Pa5X downloads one of the better ones.
Fascinating the way his left hand plays an added extension of his right hand.
Interesting technique.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voUmUAGoHqo
Graham, I found the same thing his left hand adds and interesting dimension to the playing.
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Graham , I actually saw this video earlier. He plays the arranger very well. I’m not sure about your description of extended rh. He just plays both hands, like a piano player would, using his lh to add accents and mini riffs, while still making sure he plays enough notes to allow chord recognition. I really like how he does that and started experimenting with it a bit. It’s interesting.
Mike
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He just plays both hands, like a piano player would, using his lh to add accents and mini riffs, while still making sure he plays enough notes to allow chord recognition.
Mike
It's also possible he could have been using a chord looper preset sequence to free up his LH for occasional excursions to demo that feature.
John
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I see that he plays a chord and then does his left-hand magic, until the following chord change; when he plays the new chord and leaves it, the accompaniment continues to play in the chord sequence until the following change, and he has time to play the riffs which he has mastered, in between the chord changes, in his unique style.
:)
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When set to AI type mode, which I assume exists on the Korg as well, the notes played in the rh also drive accompaniment. So this combined with some ‘quiet chord playing” in your lh between the little riffs can be enough to keep the accompaniment reasonably accurate. I experimented with this and it is possible but takes some practice.
Mike
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Quote from: Jeff Hollande on 2022-07-15, 08:33:41
_________________________________________________ _______
Hi Guys :
BAD KORG NEWS ?
Watch following PA Korg video ... I am shocked.
True or not true ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHIM9eIBmcQ
Best regards, JH
_________________________________________________ ____________
Here we see a video about what is missing in Korg's keyboard.
Wondering if it's not the same for Yamaha's keyboards when they're released?
Half-finished built programs, which must be upgraded to work properly.
There are still parts in the software that can be improved
Same with the hardware, it is already old when you start selling the keyboard,
for example. USB 2 instead of USB 3 which existed long before Genos came out.
// Pierre
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uUu8SbS3hM&t=8s
Hey Ton :
In a previous article of this thread you talked about connecting a guitar, remember ?
As shown in the above video, it looks to be a nice 5X feature ... BUT ...
I wonder if it is possible to record and mix the guitar voice in the PA5X ? ::)
This feature might only be applicable for live performances ?
If it is what I think it is then I would rather call it an extra gadget than a pro application, IMHO.
Best regards, JH
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I consider this Pa5X downloads one of the better ones.
Fascinating the way his left hand plays an added extension of his right hand.
Interesting technique.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voUmUAGoHqo
Yes, Alois has a great left hand talent. He should record them all as midi files and sell them.
It would be nice to have his left hand playing whilst we played the melody.
I used to listen to him playing the Genos a lot and always enjoyed his talent. He offers a lot of setting up tips too but, unfortunately, they are all in German (or something similar).
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Leigh Wilbraham is always worth listening too as well.
Here he plays the PA5X and demonstrates some free PA4X styles which Korg give away free.
I love Korg's strings.
https://youtu.be/eqhY5a_Owkg
P.S. Very sorry, I have just realised that he's actually playing the PA4X in this video.
This shows me that the PA4X was quite impressive too and I just didn't know it.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uUu8SbS3hM&t=8s
Hey Ton :
In a previous article of this thread you talked about connecting a guitar, remember ?
As shown in the above video, it looks to be a nice 5X feature ... BUT ...
I wonder if it is possible to record and mix the guitar voice in the PA5X ? ::)
This feature might only be applicable for live performances ?
If it is what I think it is then I would rather call it an extra gadget than a pro application, IMHO.
Best regards, JH
Hi Jeff, here are some other resources.
Rimmers Music info: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xISc4x02A6Y
Korg info: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hORggX_apfs
Based on what I see/read on the internet, Korg has integrated that well into the keyboard with its Pa5X. In my opinion it is more than a 'gadget'. Whether it is suitable for a 'Pro', I'm not sure. They have to say that themselves. For a house musician it seems like a wonderful addition. When I started to focus more on keyboards, I sold my guitar gear (except for 1 guitar ;-)). That involved many stomp boxes, effects pedals and amplifiers and many guitars. Now that I see this again, it itches again ;-)). The SX-900 also has guitar options, but compared to the PaX5 this is very limited. The Korg is way above that in terms of possibilities, so what kb has a gadget or when it is a feature?? Other than that, I have no value judgments about it. Everyone has to decide that for themselves. So say, get 2 pay 1... Very tempting.... ;)
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The guitar feature is a real great addition. This feature would be an attraction for me if I was into choosing a new keyboard from my genos. However I have to much invested in Yamaha's boards at present, so will see if they intend to go in this direction. It is possible to play guitar thro' the genos, but not in a dedicated way as is portrayed in the video. 8)
cheers Terry
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Thank you for the 2 other video links, Ton.
Very interesting !
You are absolutely right: it is much more than a simple gadget.
BTW ... I like their new VH. The Yamaha VH2 needs an upgrade, IMHO ;)
I have to admit the PA5X looks to be a nice arranger keyboard.
It might become a commercial success.
It will not be easy for Yamaha to beat the PA5X - as far as some features are concerned -.
When we talk about sound quality in general, I believe even the 5 year older Genos might be the winner.
Recently someone said here : " owning both arrangers ( PA5X and Genos ) would be a dream ".
CONCLUSION
01. I am sure most of us prefer to wait for the Genos2 (2025 technology !!! ) before making any final buying decision, I guess. Yamaha do not wait too long, plse !
02. At my age - after 22 years of Yami experience - I am not in the mood to learn a new arranger OS.
03. What about my huge Yamaha software collection ? It is a golden treasure !
04. Last but not least ... what about my dear Yamaha friends and our great software makers ( free of charge ! ) ? Many of them are like family !
Take care, JH
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Hi Jeff, you are right on a number of topics. Given my age (75+), I don't really allow myself all the time to wait. Yamaha does not communicate with their customers about what and when. So I just make my own plan. One consideration I'm leaning towards: I'll just buy the Pa5x (61). If something ever comes from Yamaha and that model would meet my needs even better (which I doubt at the moment, especially a 61 version) I'll just sell the Pa5x again. Well, I'm very eager to learn, so a new OS doesn't bother me. Yes, and the styles collection. Have thousands, but only use a fraction of them! I think that collecting styles is more 'greed' than being used! In addition, the Pa5x is very flexible to change styles. But I'll have to be patient until I can try one live. In any case, I always wait until it has been on the market for a few months and hopefully the biggest problems are gone. Then it is often better to estimate whether this Kb does what it promises ;-)
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Fascinating the way his left hand plays an added extension of his right hand.
Interesting technique.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voUmUAGoHqo
I asked the question on YT. And someone answered me that there is a feature on PA-5X allowing chords to be ONLY triggered when you play chord notes with a velocity level under a threshold.
That allows to use your left hand to play counterpoints (by playing with a velocity above this level) without chords changes are automatically triggered by the AI.
Sorry if my English is not perfect.
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ton37. Regarding Learning A New OS.
I have owned over the years Roland & Korg & Yamaha. I did not have any problem learning a different OS.
If you treat each of them as giving you the same required end results.
It's like driving from A to B, the Sat-Nav may give you 3 options but you still finish up at B, just via different roads.
As we get older its about keeping ones brain active...I'm 85.
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Thank you for the encouraging words @Graham. Fortunately, the white and black keys are in the same place as the Yamaha ;)
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Hey Ton :
We can shake hands. I will be 75 at the end of October 2022. Time goes fast. We are both Dutch. :)
I remember the Tyros1 had been announced in 2001/2002 by Yamaha ; 6 months before the keyboard was finally available for sale in 2002.
The Ty1 was so new then, modern, special, unique and beautiful. Everybody wanted to have a Tyros1. It was such a commercial success. WOW ! :D
Due to the actual presence of the Korg PA5X, I am hoping the introduction of the Genos2 will follow very soon.
When ? 61 or/and 76 keys ?
Only Yamaha can answer these questions. Nobody else.
If you should decide to go for the PA5X, I wish you good luck and a lot of fun, Ton.
As I said before it looks to be a very nice keyboard and Korg is a reliable manufacturer.
Best regards, JH
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Hi Duffy,
While we can all enjoy making the comparisons between one keyboard and another - I have to say your comment about your health can put life into perspective and it was sad for me to read this. I sincerely wish you well and hope that you will be with us for all time to come. In the meantime enjoy all the days that is given to each of us and whatever gives us some enjoyment we should try and get it in abundance.
My best wishes to you and for you.
Jim
Hi Jim,
I'm sorry but I must have originally skipped past this post without seeing it because I have posted since then.
I just wanted to say thank you to you for kind and thoughtful words and for your good wishes.
I try to enjoy life as much as possible and my music is a very large part of that.
As I am too old to improve my playing skills any more, I rely on my boards sounding as good as they can be but there will soon be a time when it would be foolish to buy another.
I still love it all anyway and really enjoy the companionship of being on the forum.
Not as much fun as the hours I spent entertaining in pubs & clubs but it's a way of getting past the limitations of Covid.
Thanks again Jim. My very best wishes to you.
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Hi Guys :
It looks like the PA5X becomes more and more popular day by day.
I hope Yamaha will come with a PA5X answer very, very soon.
It would be wonderful to see and hear the Genos2 before the end of 2022 for delivery early 2023.
Wishful thinking ? Am I dreaming ?
I hope not !!!
Best wishes, JH
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I fully agree with you Jeff. I saw an early promise in the PA5X and now, having seen much more of it in action, I consider it a top class board.
Korg have knocked so many nails on the head with this and I really do think that Yamaha don't have as much time as they thought to address this Genos challenger.
If it were not for the fact that I have never used the Korg O.S. I would probably have ordered one already as it fulfils so many of my personal wishes all in one go.
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I'm considering that too @Duffy, but there are still far too many flaws in the OS of the new Korg. Have a look at the Korg forum. That is actually to be expected with such a new model/OS. Nowadays it is common for a (software) product to be brought onto the market that is not yet completely finished. At what rate and whether this will all be resolved is always the question. Yamaha is also guilty of this and updates/fixes often take a long time (if they come?). The Pa5x practically meets all my needs (and even more than that) so I'll look when I think the time is right to buy it. But that will probably be a few months away. And about another OS: for years I had all the Technics models. When they stopped one had no choice to buy another brand with another OS. So a few years I'm a Yammie, but no problem to change to another OS. It's nowadays all about software: your TV, smartphone, car, microwave etc. etc. So, for the time being I love my SX900 till ... ;)
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Duffy. Don't let the Korg OS put you off. You will have had the same learning when you obtain your first Yamaha,
A little bit of frustrated learning Korg OS will pay dividends...Korg have done a number how to Videos Manuals
Regarding Learning A New OS. (As per my article above.)
I have owned over the years Roland & Korg & Yamaha. I did not have any problem learning a different OS.
If you treat each of them as giving you the same required end results.
It's like driving from A to B, the Sat-Nav may give you 3 options but you still finish up at B, just via different roads.
As we get older it's about keeping one's brain active...I'm 85.
Korg Video Manuals.]
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=korg+Pa5X+tutorials
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Hey Duffy :
Apparently you are not the only one who is seriously interested in the new competitor's high end keyboard.
I feel sorry to believe Yamaha have no answer yet.
What is going on there ?
Why no news ?
I am worried !
JH
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Jeff,
When Genos was released, Korg did not respond immediately; it took them five years to respond!
So, I think Yamaha will respond when the new G2 is entirely ready to be released, not earlier, and I think it will be great!
Good things come to people who wait. (I don't think Confucious said that!)
:)
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The PA4X came in 2015, the Genos in 2017.
JH
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So, the 5X comes in 2022, and it took 5 years for Korg to respond from 2017.
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So, the 5X comes in 2022, and it took 5 years for Korg to respond from 2017.
It was a pandemic time, so make a little adjustment :)
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Good calculation. The Genos was a new model from scratch for Yamaha, just as the Pa5x is for Korg. In other words, it shouldn't be too difficult for Yamaha to put down a good competitor based on the Genos. The Pa5x is on the dissection table by Yamaha. Now the designers are of course working hard to adjust a few things to give a good answer to this top-korg. They probably need a little less than 2 years. Only I don't expect that there will be a 61-key version and I don't really expect that there will be many 'wishes' fulfilled n the Genos 2?? Time will tell.... Good things come to those who wait, ... but only whats left from those who hustle!” (Abe Lincoln) ;D
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Hey Ton :
It is hard to believe we have to wait another couple of years before the Genos2 will be released. ???
Sorry ... the new Genos2 has to be presented at the end of 2022 and be available for sale early 2023 to avoid Korg will be too successful. ;)
Cross my fingers !
Best wishes, JH
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I'm not counting on a new Genos anytime soon. Would I like to see a new Genos, sure I like new arrangers. I've had plenty of new keyboards at this point in life I'm just enjoying what I have now and continue to work on new material. At my age and at the young age I've lost many friends if I wait too long for a new Genos I may not be alive.
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Hey Stephen :
I understand.
I have the impression nobody believes Yamaha will come with a new arranger soon.
It is what it is ... and I have to move on. Amen. 8)
JH
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I think you will find the majority of us are still enjoying our Genos Keyboards and will have them set up the way we want them. From what I can see a lot of valuable playing time has been wasted with all this speculation on what will be and what will not.
Come back to us when you have your new Korgs and Yamaha's and interest us with what is and not what you thought it would be.
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Feelings...Another Nice Left Hand.
I have been playing my left hand like this for a few years.
This standard is encouraging me to do better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OitMiMOpeXk
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Hi EileenL, why are you stressing that everyone is still enjoying their Genos? That is not claimed or is it not the case? This 'pinned' post is about the Korg/Yamaha similarities, differences, technical innovations etc. etc. ? Not about Genos or any other model being 'better or worse'?
And, don't worry about how I plan my time. One reads, the other responds.. It's a forum, isn't it? ;)
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To Eileen's point, I find the Genos to be more "ageless" than any Tyros or PSR I've owned. Those keyboards became stale after three or four years, as I learned new material for the stage. I'm in four bands at the moment and we play Motown, Light Jazz, Country, Blues, Swing, Oldies, and a few other genres I can't even name. The Genos has not been taxed to its limits yet. It still meets the bill. My fellow players are still amazed at its sound.
If Yamaha puts that kind of immortality into the Genos 1, it should be interesting to see what they come up with for Genos 2 ;D!
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I think you will find the majority of us are still enjoying our Genos Keyboards and will have them set up the way we want them. From what I can see a lot of valuable playing time has been wasted with all this speculation on what will be and what will not.
Come back to us when you have your new Korgs and Yamaha's and interest us with what is and not what you thought it would be.
Hi Eileen,
We too, are still enjoying our Yamaha keyboards, in my case, the Genos.
I have considered buying a PA5X and may still do, but that doesn't cut me off from my Genos at all.
It sounds as though we are regarded as being on the outside of the group because we have been complimentary about the Korg.
I also use 3 modules (not all at the same time) whilst I play my Genos but this doesn't make me a traitor in any way.
I know what I want to sound like and I just do my best to achieve this.
It's all about enjoying music and life and sharing that with others, and we don't have to stick rigidly to a certain keyboard to do that.
We don't want splitting into 2 different groups because we like a pudding as well as a meal.
I will not have to come back because I will not be leaving whilst I still breathe.
I don't understand why this conversation must be all or nothing when we all have the very same interests and pass our time doing the same thing.
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I am no way suggesting that people leave because they have different keyboards but do remember this is first and foremost a Yamaha forum and whilst I don't mind hearing about what else is out there, four pages of something that gets no where is a little of putting. The same thing is being repeated over and over and that is when is Genos 2 coming out and hope it has this and hope it has that. My answer to this was enjoy what you have and the future will take care of itself.
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Hi Eileen, you are free to skip reading all those nonsens if you want! That is why it is in one topic.
Allthought, thinking over about this subject (pa5x) on a Yamaha forum I think most is said, so not an important remark😃 but I quit from this discussion. 🤔😏😎
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The same thing is being repeated over and over and that is when is Genos 2 coming out and hope it has this and hope it has that.
For better or worse, this is human nature. :D I'm old enough to worry about repeating myself... ;D
All with a large grain of salt -- pj
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Hey Stephen :
I understand.
I have the impression nobody believes Yamaha will come with a new arranger soon.
It is what it is ... and I have to move on. Amen. 8)
JH
Hi Jeff, If by any chance they release a Genos 2 we will all have a nice surprise.
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To Eileen's point, I find the Genos to be more "ageless" than any Tyros or PSR I've owned. Those keyboards became stale after three or four years, as I learned new material for the stage. I'm in four bands at the moment and we play Motown, Light Jazz, Country, Blues, Swing, Oldies, and a few other genres I can't even name. The Genos has not been taxed to its limits yet. It still meets the bill. My fellow players are still amazed at its sound.
If Yamaha puts that kind of immortality into the Genos 1, it should be interesting to see what they come up with for Genos 2 ;D!
Lee, Although I'm not playing in any bands I agree with all you wrote.
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Hi Guys :
The interrelationship between Yamaha and Korg seems to be a lot better than I ever have thought it was.
I have always believed both companies were real competitors. ::)
I apologize for not being aware of this important information. :P
To quote Wikipedia :
Yamaha Corporation has always been a major partner of Korg, supplying them with circuitry and mechanical parts.
Best regards, JH
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Dear forum members,
There has been a discussion here about the better or worse keyboard for a while now, and I wish this and that in future keyboards etc… .
I think very few people understand how difficult it is to more or less meet customer needs. The current top-arranger keyboards, mainly Yamaha & Korg which are at a very high level and excel in sound quality, it is very difficult to make the instrument sounds even better, the current “Articulation” functions in Tyros 4,5-Genos , Korg Pa 1000-3x-4x-5x is a good example of this but has its limitations. For example the comment of someone who said that the Sax in Pa5x was nothing, let a real saxophone be played by 5 different music sides, it will sound 5 times different! For example, phrasings that are performed on acoustic instruments can only be imitated to a very limited extent on a keyboard.
A final example are the drums, the Revodrums in Yamaha & Round Robin drums in Pa5x. Although the drums in Pa4x were already very good compared to Genos, Korg has built this in too, you can see that brands are looking to each other to stay close to each other when it comes to competition.
We as customers can only benefit from it.
As for the arrival of a possible Genos 2, if Yamaha doesn't even finally make an effort to properly take care of the outside and keyboard and like Korg brings good Pianos and finally good organ drawbars on board, they can better stick to the current Genos and bring some good updates. Yamaha has the technology in CP and YC models. On the other hand, if Korg still does what has been proposed for the new Pa5x, Yamaha will have to shift up a gear if they don't want to lose customers. Korg already had a very good Midi to Style converter in Pa4x (Creatorbot), a very extensive Sound & Style editor, etc., things that were interesting for the more professional music side. These things and several others will be available again in the next Korg Pa5x upgrades. So Yamaha be warned!!!!
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To reply to both Jeff, and Musicman,
I also didn't know that Yamaha and Korg worked closely together but I am certainly glad to hear it because there must be good spin-offs in both directions, which can only benefit us all.
For my part, this conversation has never been about "the best" or setting Yamaha & Korg up like a couple of prizefighters.
Both companies produce brilliant keyboards (and so also, do Ketron & Bohm) but none have got everything absolutely right yet as Genos organs and sound glitches prove.
My first love was Technics, especially the great KN7000 and I have also owned a few Roland's and Ketron's. I still use Roland & Ketron modules with my Genos.
Since I couldn't replace my KN 7000, I have had Tyros3 Tyros 4 and Genos and, over time, have always been used to working with registrations. (the 10 memories on Genos is perfect).
I do agree that Yamaha need to move quickly to address the few failings on Genos to avoid losing customers to Korg.
It seems that Korg also, have been lax in not incorporating form the start, their midi to style system and their Style editor.
To sum up, I don't wish to upset Yamaha lovers or anyone else and those who think Genos is the absolute bees knees. It's very nice to be happy and contented with what you have.
I, like many, are on the quest for the most perfect board and, whilst there are shortcomings, we are impatient for them to be put right.
Long live Yamaha, Korg, and yes, Ketron & Bohm too and thanks to them all for giving us all such pleasure.
Certainly no hard feelings to anyone I have disagreed with. I just want to enjoy myself and throw all my money at keyboards.
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Eileen
As I said in an earlier post the emergence of a new keyboard doesn’t change anything about the existing keyboards. If Genos was a great keyboard before, it still is now. If you loved it before, you should surely still love it now.
But the reason this thread has attracted so much attention is that despite initial skepticism, it is becoming clear to even the most dyed in the wool Yamaha arranger players, that this new Korg is an exceptional product. I don’t think there is much doubt that while it may not be better than Genos in every regard, overall it is definitely setting a new standard for arrangers. And that is important news to people who play and love arrangers, and makes it a legitimate thread even in a Yamaha forum. Will it turn a poor player into a great player, of course not. But it will make many players feel they have a better tool in their toolbox.
As someone who has been a leading proponent and pretty expert on arrangers for many years I am a little surprised that it is not also of great interest to you, but of course that is your prerogative. You may feel the thread has been overdone, but the fact is that new information on features and capability of this Korg keyboard is emerging almost daily. One of the things that impresses me is that they have addressed so many things that are of real benefit to typical arranger players, and not succumbed to the constant demand for features from a minority of players to make arrangers more competitive with workstation/ music production equipment.
How will Yamaha respond, and how long will it take? None of us know. Meanwhile most of us will carry on playing what we have, a few will buy the new Korg, but overall the world will stay the same. It’s just a discussion thread, not a war.
Mike
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Now that I found out there is an interrelationship between both companies, I made a mistake by underestimating the PA5X.
Sorry, Guys !
In my country the dealers, like in most other Western countries I guess, are selling both brands.
The customer is the only decision maker.
From now on I will respect her/his choice, promise.
Best wishes, JH
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Well Jeff at one time Korg shared the factory at Yamaha Milton Keynes and then Korg moved on to there own premises. In a way they have always been allies if you like to call it that. This is why you will find many similarities in both keyboards but of course named and described differently.
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People should not read too much into prior Yamaha /Korg relationships. Yamaha bought over Korg back in 1983, which might explain the shared factory in the UK for a short while. But that situation did not last long as Korg purchased back all their shares over 25 years ago.
Since that time they have been completely separate and competitors in the electronic keyboard market.
Although Korg have a deserved reputation in quality electronic keyboards, they are a very modest company compared to Yamaha, with maybe a few hundred employees. Yamaha are a mega corporation with between 25,000 and 30,000 employees, and dwarf Korg. Many Yamaha divisions and subsidiaries stand alone are many times bigger than total Korg. It is normal that many other companies including Korg will buy parts from Yamaha industrial subsidiaries. But that is not cooperation, just standard trading practice, and I have no doubt that in electronic keyboards Korg and Yamaha are fierce competitors and remain quite secretive from each other on design and manufacture.
Electronic keyboards are a significant, but by no means massive part of Yamaha in total, while Korg are 100% dependent on their electronic keyboard sales. Whether the PaX5 is a great keyboard or not, has nothing to do with a Yamaha connection.
Mike
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Thank you for much for this historical arranger keyboard information, Mike. Very interesting !
Both companies have worked intensely together in the past.
They are both Japanese and located in the same country.
Apparently they know each other very well, have a good relationship and are sharing the same ( export ) customers.
Korg, a dwarf compared to Yamaha, are a very modest company with a well deserved reputation in quality electronic keyboards.
Yamaha are a mega corporation. I wonder if/when Korg will ever become 100% Yamaha. ;)
Best regards,
JH
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Yamaha are a mega corporation.
Best regards,
JH
Jeff, They sure are. Where we live in a golf cart community Yamaha is by the far one of the most popular golf carts you see people driving in. When I think Yamaha I normally think pianos and keyboards but they make many other products.
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Jeff, They sure are. Where we live in a golf cart community Yamaha is by the far one of the most popular golf carts you see people driving in. When I think Yamaha I normally think pianos and keyboards but they make many other products.
In this video, Nick from Sonic Labs has a wander through Yamaha's internal museum. There are a lot of musical instruments, but also some other unexpected products like tennis rackets! Worth a look, if only to make you drool over all those synths ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=defrQ8_Q1yU
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Thank you for much for this historical arranger keyboard information, Mike. Very interesting !
Both companies have worked intensely together in the past.
They are both Japanese and located in the same country.
Apparently they know each other very well, have a good relationship and are sharing the same ( export ) customers.
Korg, a dwarf compared to Yamaha, are a very modest company with a well deserved reputation in quality electronic keyboards.
Yamaha are a mega corporation. I wonder if/when Korg will ever become 100% Yamaha. ;)
Best regards,
JH
Jeff - you are trying to see something which isn't there. Maybe to justify changing your mind about Korg. My experience of mega corporations - at the small keyboard division in Yamaha some employees will definitely be talking about Korg, but at the top corporate level, I bet they don't spend 10 seconds thinking about Korg. Why would they?
Both Japanese - irrelevant. Hundreds of companies have the same nationality that are fierce competitors.
Sharing the same customers - irrelevant, what else could they do?? All car companies, all aircraft manufacturing companies share the same customers, all Oil companies share the same customers, what does that mean? Nothing, except they fight each other like crazy to get more of them.
Were once owned by Korg - yes but it didn't work out. Korg separated as soon as they could. My experience of mergers and takeovers at mega corporations ( which is extensive) is that when a corporation has tried it once and gave it up, they seldom, if ever, try it again. So answer to your question "when will they be 100% owned by Yamaha", ......they are zero owned now and I cant see that changing. They tried it once before and that's usually enough.
Mike
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As far as being Japanese companies is concerned, one shouldn't forget the moribund Japanese economy which lasted decades. For more info, search on "Japan Lost Decades". The banks were in dire straits and were bringing companies down with them.
If a European or North American capitalist saw a competitor struggling to survive, they would pop a champagne bottle and hope for the worse. Japanese companies compete fiercely, but also understand the need for competition to support the national good. (Recovery from WWII is not that far back in the rear-view mirror.) Yamaha and Korg combined and cooperated in order to survive during the lost decade(s) even though they are very different companies and with different corporate cultures.
One sees co-opetition today as Japanese companies cooperate to recover from the Asahi Kasei Microdevices (AKM) factory fire.
There is a bit of different thinking in the Japanese business community as far as survival is concerned.
Just my point of view -- pj
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I consider this Pa5X downloads one of the better ones.
Fascinating the way his left hand plays an added extension of his right hand.
Interesting technique.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voUmUAGoHqo
I found another video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jseKl9qFDwA
Here, I found the automatic bass perfectly follows the good chords, although Alois Muller sometimes plays full chords, sometimes individual notes, with his right and his left hand. He would have a pedal keyboard (like on an electone), it would not be better. The "full AI fingered mode" seems really good on the PA 5X. (but the sounds are not so good ...)
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I found another video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jseKl9qFDwA
Here, I found the automatic bass perfectly follows the good chords, although Alois Muller sometimes plays full chords, sometimes individual notes, with his right and his left hand. He would have a pedal keyboard (like on an electone), it would not be better. The "full AI fingered mode" seems really good on the PA 5X. (but the sounds are not so good ...)
I don't know...those strings and brass sound darn good to my ears! If the 5X can sound that good, it should be interesting to hear Yamaha's response ;D.
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Hi Guys :
As soon as one of our members has received her/his PA5X, I would highly appreciate to read her/his first objective impressions.
What are the strengths and weaknesses of this arranger compared to the Genos ?
Personally I am also interested in hearing her/his findings of the new VH compared to Yahama's VH2 ( that might need an upgrade, IMO ).
Thank you in advance, JH
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If and when you hear all this Jeff and you like what you hear will you rush out and buy one. Then you can also tell us about it.
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It appears that many prospective purchasers are holding off for a while because the PA5X does not yet have the brilliant and easy to use, Korg version of Yamaha's Style Creator and also the Midi to Style converter, both of which are on the PA4X. Despite that, anyone who wants one will have to wait because no one has spare stock and can only take orders.
I am still very interested but, like others, still dependant on how long to wait for the complete deal.
Can Yamaha deal with the shortcomings of the Genos ( Hammond Organ that sounds like YC61 one, seamless sound switching and the ability to copy into all 10 registrations at once rather than one at a time) before the Korg reaches full completion. They have had a 5 year start.
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Why would you want to copy into all ten registration in one go when you have to create what voices and variations you are going to use in a song as you go along.
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To overwrite such things as Midi files from Genos (not my own) which keep coming back after I deleted them and replacing my style with one to suit the Midi file.
When this happens, it is usually putting a Midi file in Player A where I use nothing but audio in that slot. My Midi's always go in player B.
It's a real pain switching player A from Midi back to Audio and getting rid of the Midi file.
Also registrations (probably given to me by third parties) where the split point varies in some slots and prevents Right 3 voice from sounding.
Quite a few occasions where you may want to make changes which have a GLOBAL effect.
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It appears that many prospective purchasers are holding off for a while because the PA5X does not yet have the brilliant and easy to use, Korg version of Yamaha's Style Creator and also the Midi to Style converter, both of which are on the PA4X.
I read through the Pa5x section of the Korg forum. Must say, if one thinks the whinging on this Forum is bad, please take a look at the Korg-ites. ("Korgee" sounds too much like "Corgi". ;D No offense intended toward humans or canines.)
Ah, human nature. ;)
Wishing everyone a chill afternoon -- pj
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I read through the Pa5x section of the Korg forum. Must say, if one thinks the whinging on this Forum is bad, please take a look at the Korg-ites.
Wow, no kidding. I just went and looked. They are not happy.
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My Friend had a chance to play one last week and said it is awful and full of bugs with parts not finished yet.
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Not surprising, Eileen.
Question for Michael: Why is so much software released these days before it's even close to being ready? I know the engineers cannot possibly anticipate every permutation of how we're going to use the product, but it seems they don't even ensure the basic functions all work. Why do they charge big bucks for us to be their usability subjects or did I just answer my own question :o?
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Regarding software. Just look at Microsoft, Apple and whoever it is, all versions came with lots of bugs, and they're still releasing fixes and addons.
Yamaha and Korg is not any exeption. Genos is mostly a continued Tyros with a new design, PA5X is pretty much a new baby build up from bottom with new fileformats and lots of new stuff.
And as usual, the customers is the betatesters..... It's probably the name of the game. ;D
Btw, there is not only negative reports at Korg Forum and elsewhere, there is happy buyers as well. But, if it's so that we want the new keyboards to be a clone of what we already have, why bother to buy a new one?
Did'nt we see the same atitude when Genos was launched? ???
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Question for Michael: Why is some much software released these days before it's even close to being ready? I know the engineers cannot possibly anticipate every permutation of how we're going to use the product, but it seems they don't even ensure the basic functions all work. Why do they charge big bucks for us to be their usability subjects or did I just answer my own question?
Adequate testing costs money. Getting your users to do it for free is an economic win. So if you don’t give a rip about ethics and you have no pride in your workmanship, that’s what you do.
There’s a reason why so many people can relate to Dilbert cartoons (https://ticketmastertech.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/dt940414dhc0_4.png).
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Thanks for answering my questions, guys.
Jonny, I agree that MS and Apple offer up constant fixes and updates but even their new OS releases are basically functional from the beginning. Subsequent updates tend to be minor fixes and security updates. From a basic functioning point of view, the Genos is close to the Tyros BUT the Genos is a complete redesign. The OS is totally different and many surface control buttons have been eliminated and put in reach through the OS. When they make such a drastic change to the control surface, the OS better be stellar. The first Genos release was very good, unlike the the PA5X. It sounds like Korg has a horror story on their hands. They jumped the gun and are going to pay a hefty price.
Michael, what you describe is corporate greed on an unprecedented scale. I can remember a time when it was absolutely out of the question to release a product until it was thoroughly tested and ready for the market. Not today. God help our grandchildren! It seems it's acceptable in this pathetic modern world to do everything half-assed.
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I think that bench testing can only go so far in keyboards. Yes someone can sit and press all the buttons to make sure they respond as they should. This dose not necessarily mean they are players and therefore do not know how a customer will use it. We all know that people have so many different ideas on how they want to set it up and how they adjust things. This is where some of the little faults appear and we then report them. If they are genuine faults and not user error they are put right fairly quickly with up dates and all is well.
This is one of the reasons I stick with Yamaha because they give first class service in this respect.
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Systems like Genos pose real challenges for systematic, repeatable testing/quality assurance. Screen-based user interfaces have special challenges.
Aside from physically pressing buttons, the UI could be driven by an automated, GUI-oriented test script. (Such tools are well-known practice.) As a former developer, I'd love to chat with the Yamaha team about software quality assurance (QA) just to find out what they are doing. Even button pressing needs to follow a script in order to achieve coverage or to perform regression testing (that is, testing after a change/bug fix for non-developers reading this).
Reading the Pa5x posts in the Korg Forum, I wonder what Korg's QA process is like! They seem to have had quite a few "escapes."
Back in the day, I was the interface between our development team (USA) and QA team (India). Been there...
All the best -- pj
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I think that bench testing can only go so far in keyboards. Yes someone can sit and press all the buttons to make sure they respond as they should. This dose not necessarily mean they are players and therefore do not know how a customer will use it. We all know that people have so many different ideas on how they want to set it up and how they adjust things. This is where some of the little faults appear and we then report them. If they are genuine faults and not user error they are put right fairly quickly with up dates and all is well.
This is one of the reasons I stick with Yamaha because they give first class service in this respect.
Hi Eileen
One thing people here in the Uk should do is stick with Yamaha.
Korg can be hard to get hold of for tech support.
I have had a few questions i needed answered in the past and if you give Yamaha in Milton Keynes a phone call , they have a support man answering you in seconds and i say that Yamaha are great in responding.
Yes, this is the reason i will wait for the next Yamaha keyboard. 100% support.
The Genos still knocks the pants off of the new Korg 8)
Like you say Eileen ,play the keyboard and learn chords instead of chord looper as a little practice you can get a song finished much quicker.
My failings is mixing and mastering, but i will not stop trying. :P
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Michael, what you describe is corporate greed on an unprecedented scale. I can remember a time when it was absolutely out of the question to release a product until it was thoroughly tested and ready for the market. Not today. God help our grandchildren! It seems it's acceptable in this pathetic modern world to do everything half-assed.
Money talks. We would be better off with a system that also listened to talk from other concerns: ethics, workmanship, competence, compassion…
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Excellent point, Michael. Then again, you're referring to how we used to do things when companies took pride in their work 🙃. I'd say Yamaha's initial release of the Genos compared to the PA5X, is stellar. There were things we wanted but if I recall, at least everything worked.
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When we talk about the sound, and the sound is everything, it depends on everyone's preference, for example, for me only the saxophones are clearly better in Genos, but it's just my opinion.
When we talk about functions, let's be serious, this beta version, where many things are not present or do not work correctly, will clearly send me to the computer less times (if I want to edit something: sound; style; chord looper, everything) than the current version of Genos software.
We like to put on a pedestal what we prefer, but we noticed that our brain doesn't really love the truth.
I worked few months on the Yamaha pack and when I had to open the Korg to take specific sounds or styles, I immediately gave up because it seemed far worse.
After that I decided to improve my Korg set and, after a month of work when I reopened the Yamaha, almost everything seemed to sound wrong.
And I opened the computer only once to take in a sound from Yamaha - of course from TYROS 4 the last real arranger in terms of sound editing with the possibility of IN but also OUT (not like now IN all that you have OUT nothing(it is Yamaha property)).
Then, there is also the pride that we made the right decision by choosing one brand or another, even material interests for certain people, and so on.
Both are extraordinary keyboards, but our requirements are even higher.
We want Genos&Pa5x in one plus everyone's preferences.
Best regards to everyone!
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We want Genos&Pa5x in one plus everyone's preferences.
YESS! Now we're speaking! 😁🎶
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Rushing products to market with some bugs is usually the result of desperation by executives to meet internally set deadlines rather than a corporate mindset to short change the consumer or greed. It has always happened, but it seems more common now partly because the nature of many software/firmware driven products is to provide such wide and deep functionality. So its getting harder and harder to test and address every possible scenario.
I have no knowledge of the problems being experienced by PaX5 buyers, but there have been many demos where the keyboard appeared to perform well. So maybe we shouldn’t read too much into these reported ‘bugs’. I suspect the main functions work quite well, and the problems are mainly experienced by “deep” users of the functionality. That’s not to excuse it, but realistically, that may not affect sales too much.
Mike
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Before people jump to slate it too much as being unfinished with lots of bugs, just remember that we have seen with our own eyes, the PA5X being played by highly respected players who we have previously seen playing Genos, and many of the board's sounds and technical abilities are absolutely first class.
I am looking forwards to trying one in a shop but, unfortunately, that will mean travelling to do it because there are no real keyboard shops left in my area and I live in a major UK city.
Price we pay for buying things online. I bought my Genos from a local dealer who no longer sells keyboards and so, spoils my dreams.
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Pa5x First Impressions: (I'm not starting a new thread for this on a Yamaha forum)
Our 1st customer's unit arrived and my impressions (only had 15 minutes of play time before he was done asking me how to navigate it)
The physical casing is typical, beautiful Korg. Yes, Yamaha focuses more on sound and less on aesthetics, but let's not kid ourselves, physically, the PA5x is gorgeous. Brushed black aluminum casing with dark wood sides (It's a slightly odd design choice; why not make it all black brushed aluminum? They actually do that so if you chip or dent you can just sand it out. Visually still odd, but consistent with all their Kronos/Krome /Nautilus designs as well).
Ease of use out of box: what you'd expect, just as easy to navigate as a Genos for just selecting styles and voices. None of the difficulty of either OS really shows up until you try to get into intricate editing.
Sound: the electric guitars sound amazing, really benefitting from actual guitar amp modelling on board. The drums sound phenomenal. The stereo imaging of most of the styles was also fantastic; a really wide audio image. With some notable exceptions: the brilliant 12-8 Movie Soundtrack style (designed for Pirates of the Caribbean, which is what I converted to Yamaha for my long pirates medley on YouTube) while the drums sound great, all the orchestral horns sounds are weak and sound rather monaural rather than stereo (same was true on the Pa4x for the same style), but at least the strings were better than their previous gen (those were new with the PA4x equivalent of the Genos Superior pack, they added spiccato strings on par with T4/T5).
Control: as with the PA4x, the S.Art 2 sounds are bizarre; as I'd mentioned before on Yamaha, S.Art2 automatically switches between mono and polyphonic to join things like glissandos, sampled pitch bends, etc. With the Pa4x, you had to manually stop a note going into a glissando or both saxes would sound; it's always in poly mode. That remains with the Pa5x. likewise, so do the other articulation idiosyncrasies, like needing to hold down notes on the right hand while slapping the joystick down for string slap/body tap.
That's all I had time to dig into. Oh, and I love the piano. It wasn't as crisp and clear as the Genos, but it was warm, and was never too bright (I mainly tried the 1st one, the Austrian grand I think it was. the 2nd piano, meant to be a Steinway I think, I only tried briefly). But the piano was impressive.
The built in styles were very modern and up to date, the Weeknd clearly being one of their favourite artists to base styles on (and those are *great* styles). On the other hand, the Country ones sounded a tad anemic to me; in particular the "Country Rock" style sounded more like dueling banjos to me. But if you're into modern pop/dance/r&b, the styles will be heaven for you. Likewise, those who like to noodle around with electric guitars on rock styles; some of those sounded *real* to me. Like it sounded like I had a couple of actual guitars playing power chords and strums in the background.
Mark
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Hi Mark
Thank you very much for an honest and un-biased first impression. Just a pity it was only a 15 min trial.
Bill
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It's a long time I don't buy musical equipment from the stores for the same reason. They can't afford to keep in stores all these keyboards. Especially the Arranger keyboards only attract a few people.
The keyboards have become so sophisticated that I don't expect support from anyone at the store level. Sometimes even companies' support don't know what a keyboard can't do.
I found more help at forums like this.
The good thing about this, there are companies in the USA such as Musicians friend who will send you a keyboard to try, you have 30 days or more to try it on your own equipment, if you like it you'll keep it, if you don't ship it back, you pay shipping cost. Some companies charge restacking fees.
I kept almost all the equipment I purchased over the Internet.
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Hi Mark
Thank you very much for an honest and un-biased first impression. Just a pity it was only a 15 min trial.
Bill
Well, the 2nd person who pre ordered one was unimpressed (because it mostly had the same styles as his PA1000, which is true, but he *completely* missed the point that there's still 170 brand new styles, and 500 brand new sounds (especially impressive are the new piano and drums), so his special order has become our display model.
So further impressions: the piano and drums are truly impressive (doesn't mean the Genos' aren't good, but I'd give a slight edge to the PA5x in both fronts). Brass is decent, Genos edges out here. But the Genos strings (which anyone who watches my YouTube videos knows, I *live* on orchestral strings) are still vastly superior. Solo strings however, are *really* good on the PA5x; better than on even PSRsx900.
The saxes still have that weird articulation thing where it's always polyphonic (the Genos S.Art 2 saxes are usually more natural because they automatically adjust from poly to mono on the fly). However, these saxes are now close to the Yamahas S.Art 2; in some cases it now switches properly (not all) between poly and mono. *much* better than on the PA4x/PA1000.
The guitars still have that weird joystick down thing which won't slap if you don't already have notes playing.
Hammond organs are fantastic on the Korg; the only oddball thing is that you need to slap the joystick up to change rotary speed. But it *works* and sounds great! And yes, the seamless switching of voices works (so far)
On the other hand, their version of megavoice is a match to Yamaha's, the keys and the build quality are amazing (the semiweighted keys have so much spring to them that some customers asked me if they were weighted keys!). Yamaha gives you 2 years warranty in Canada, Korg only gives 1.
Mark
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Stop saying the Genos is so good, how ever am I going to get one cheap if you keep building it up :'(
Adrian
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The KORG Pa5x is a wonderful instrument with some amazing features,
BUT,.....you have to be will to DIG IN DEEP and make it your own. Many players are not motivated to do that & that is their prerogative but instead choose to just turn on and play & that is fine also.
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The KORG Pa5x is a wonderful instrument with some amazing features,
BUT,.....you have to be will to DIG IN DEEP and make it your own. Many players are not motivated to do that & that is their prerogative but instead choose to just turn on and play & that is fine also.
Donny, My long time friend. Good to see you post. What are you playing now? A mutual friend of ours told me he just bought your T5.
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I think you do not understand what the new Korg Pa5 brings to the table. They have embedded the Kronos, SV1, and Nautilus sound engine into the Pa5. If you have ever played ANY of those instruments, you should know the sound quality is 2nd to NONE! Also, there are now 100's of Kronos and Nautilus sound libraries available to used within the Pa5x. As a matter of fact, I used many of the Orchestral sounds on the Kronos and I'm sorry to say, they equal or exceed the Yamaha counterparts.
I wouldn't be so quick to judge this keyboard until you actually play it and hear it in person!!!
[would you able to direct me to which kronos sounds work on PA5X i have a genos also and wonder which for mats work regards Colin/quote]
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Yamaha will up their game at some point, and so it will continue. That’s great for all arranger enthusiasts. One thing I don’t understand, is why some are so defensive about the Genos. Nothing has changed on your Genos, if you liked it before it’s still the same. My CVP didn’t change because there is something new out there. If you try the new Korg and decide you still prefer Genos, that’s no issue. If you decide the Korg might be a step up, and you like it better, you now have choice, - how can this be bad?
Mike
Well said Mike.
I will buy the 88 key PAX5 in July to use together with my Genos. Why July? I'm hoping that by then they will update it and fix some of their software issues that I have been reading about.
I have a 34 Kg Kawai MP11 piano that seems to get heavier with each passing year, which I shall leave at home for practice. Arthritis crept up on me and the Korg is lighter (20 kg.) It probably would also be good to combine different sound and style options as well.
Make no mistake, I've grown to love my Genos and will not part with it, but it is always good to keep an open mind about things. This will benefit all of us as these two companies each compete to stay one step ahead of the other. Waiting for Genos 2.
Pianoman.
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34kg? Holy smokes that's heavy. Heck, the P515 is heavy at 22.5kg
You should really check out the 15kg PXS6000/7000 or the even lighter 11kg PXS5000. Wooden keys (wood resin hybrid).
The Genos is a comfy 13kg. One of the reasons I like the CP88 so much, best portable wooden weighted keys, 18.6kg (not too heavy) and really clean sound.
Mark
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From what I've tested, Korg is a very small child compared to Yamaha! Plus the Korg does not master the technique of mixing several tracks simultaneously in an arranger! Besides the Genos which has a 32-bit sound card and a polyphony of 256, the korg is a toy in a metal box. So don't hurry because Genos 2 is on the way!
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Fascinating conversation.
** DISCLAIMER ** What follows is just my opinion based on over 40 years of spending more money on keyboards than I care to admit.
In 1979 I bought my first keyboard. It was a Hohner Stringvox. I thought it was the greatest thing in the world because it sounded like "real" violins. LMAO. Down the raod I picked up the following. This is not an all inclusive list.
Yamaha DX 7 (that amazing choir)
Crumar Orchestrator (Great strings and brass)
Roland Digital Piano (real sounding piano and strings)
Kurzweil 1000 (Wow. All real sounding instruments and choirs)
Korg Triton (Wow. Even more real sounding instruments)
And on and on and on. Not to mention synths like all the ARP stuff.
Everything was great and the next thing was always greater.
Then in 2014 I chucked all my hardware and went ITB. In these last 9 years I have discovered a world that, IMO, is nothing short of amazing. And without one keyboard (outside of my Arturia controller) in sight.
Then my church needed a solution for playing something other than a piano or organ so, on the advice of a good friend, I bought the Genos. While it's still a learning curve for me, I love it for what it is capable of. Soundwise, it doesn't hold up to the top of the line VSTs. Certainly you can't compare Genos strings to VSL orchestra samples. Granted, for the latter, we're talking thoughsands of dollars just for orchestral sounds. But wow, what sounds.
No, Genos is great for what it does. Is it better than Korg?
Well, that depends. And here's where I have to look at things from a practical standpoint.
Exactly what is it you're trying to do? Not every keyboard is best suited for every task. Some keyboards would be overkill for certain tasks. For example, if the only thing we wanted to do was replace our acoustic piano at church (because it's constantly going out of tune) with a digital one, I certainly wouldn't get a Genos to do that.
1, It's overkill.
2. The piano sounds are not top of the line.
But if I want to play anthems at church that sound like a whole band is playing, the Genos is more than adequate. Would the Korg work as well? For some people, maybe. Especially if price is an issue. For that matter, maybe a completely different keyboard would serve their purpose better.
To categorically state that keyboard X is better than keyboard Y leaves out too many variables regarding need to be of any value.
So while these discussions are fascinating, they're not going to answer the question for a prospective buyer "which keyboard do I get?" because we don't have all the facts, at the top of the list being what do they even need a keyboard for.
Personally, if another church came to me with the same need that our church had, I would recommend the Genos with the additional proviso that they sample other keyboards as well so that they can make an informed decision. Because there may be something else out there that better suits their needs.
I have spent over $50,000 on music related stuff over the years.
It's funny how each thing I got was better than the thing I got before it.
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If that was true there would be plenty stores stocking them. But it’s not. Competing with Internet pricing has killed margins on electronic keyboards.
The CVP range is generally sold thru piano stores rather than guitar or electronic instrument stores, and must have kept a decent margin because it’s usually possible to play them in a local piano store if they are a Yamaha dealer.
Mike
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From what I've tested, Korg is a very small child compared to Yamaha! Plus the Korg does not master the technique of mixing several tracks simultaneously in an arranger! Besides the Genos which has a 32-bit sound card and a polyphony of 256, the korg is a toy in a metal box. So don't hurry because Genos 2 is on the way!
From what you tested? What did you test, the Korg EK-50!?? As I don't recognise any other "Korgs" you describe.
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Wagtunes,
Look how much you would have saved if you had waited till now to buy the best :D
Adrian
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Want to advertise Korg on this site? Then I tell you that Pa5x will be just an empty metal box next to the new Genos2! Let's be realistic, even the PSR SX600 sounds clearer and more beautiful than any Korg model!
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iulistil2, this is a Yamaha fan site, so of course we all love our Yammies (I own 2 Yamaha digital pianos and 4 Yamaha keyboards, but only 1 Roland keyboard, came close to purchasing a Korg 3 times)
But even the G1 can't beat the PA5x's pianos (or drums, although both have great drums so that's more of a draw). And the organs on PA5x are also better than G1.
Saying the PSRsx600 sounds better than any Korg simply isn't true; the sx600 is great for what it is, but the drums and strings are lacking. The PA5x costs 4 x the sx600, so of course most sounds are better! Let's be honest, Korg has had better drums than Yamaha a lot of the time, going back to Pa80 /Pa1x vs Tyros 1; it wasn't until T3 that Yamaha essentially pulled even, and with Genos pulled ahead (and with PA5x Korg has pulled even again).
So why haven't I purchased a Korg yet? I *need* registrations. And easy to program styles*. Not everyone does.
*yes people keep saying that it's easier to program styles on other brands, but *my* experience has been despite the initial learning curve programming Yamaha styles, they *are* still the easiest for *me* to program.
Ironically, Korg styles are easier to *use* (don't know what I mean? Try changing chords mid-beat on a Yamaha... you'll often hear a note suddenly bend to another note, for channels that aren't set to retrigger (which would interrupt a guitar chord strum, for example, so they simply shift the note mid playback)
Korg? Automatically quantizes chord changes so that you won't change note mid strum.
But the ease of *programming* styles on Yamaha is why I own 6 Yamahas. And also why there are literally 10's of thousands of Yamaha homebrew styles available to download; *very* few Korg, and *none* Roland... I asked Roland 2 decades ago why they don't include a style creator in their arrangers, and they said most customers don't use or need it. That is technically true, but also why we stopped carrying Roland high end arrangers for the past... well, almost 2 decades. :o
Mark
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From what I've tested, Korg is a very small child compared to Yamaha! Plus the Korg does not master the technique of mixing several tracks simultaneously in an arranger! Besides the Genos which has a 32-bit sound card and a polyphony of 256, the korg is a toy in a metal box. So don't hurry because Genos 2 is on the way!
Dear iulistil2,
As already mentioned, this is a Yamaha forum, which does not mean that competition cannot be discussed, on the contrary.
What you are saying here is downright childish talk!
Everything has pros and cons, I am a Genos fan and 3 weeks ago I sold my 6 year old Genos to possibly be replaced by the Genos 2.
I also have a Pa5x 76 at the same time, which I am now making more time for.
When I hear your explanation, you don't even have Pa5x because then you certainly don't tell such nonsense!!!
I can only say one thing, Genos is more for home players and Pa5x is for people who perform live and want to get more out of the keyboard. A professional arranger!
And be honest, the exterior (PVC) of Genos is not suitable for that.
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I have played Korg and Yamaha arrangers for 20 years, I have played Ketron arrangers for the last 6 years and i have owned the Event for over six months ....GEnos 2 ? It will have to be spectacularly better than the Genos one for me to part with my Event....here is why:
Personally I always apply FOUR criteria:
1. are you a singer or do you only play instrumental stuff?
2. are you a gigging artist, or do you only play at home ?
3. Do you prefer a polished (CD) sound, or an approximation of a real band?
4. Do you like to cover songs with accompaniments very close to the real
thing, that is use SongStyles, or do you prefer to shy away from those
and make your own Arrangements.....initially what Arranger Keyboards
where made for with generic styles and few or no songstyles ?
Depending on the answers to those four questions it is not too hard to decide which way to go. I could fill that in for you here, but I am sure you can all manage quite well each onto his own !!!
greetings,
John Smies
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Add 5: do you want to have any Yamaha keyboard or do you don't know yet which model of a Yamaha keyboard you prefer...
because in your criteria the choices have actually already been made... ;D ;)
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First, apologies for resurrecting an old thread!
With the advent of Genos 2, I am in the market for either a used original Genos or at a push I could stretch to a PA5X. I suspect there's no way I will be able to justify the cost of a 2, unfortunately!
To be honest, based on some other demos, I had been inclining towards the Korg. But then I sat down and listened (through quality studio monitors) to this comparison video from Hamiltons:
https://youtu.be/HlSj0jwU5CU?si=AkRDGrBh2puRGfFx (https://youtu.be/HlSj0jwU5CU?si=AkRDGrBh2puRGfFx)
Without looking at the comments beforehand, I just sat and listened and marked a winner in each comparison. The Yamaha won hands down – I'd expected it to be more even, at least. The Korg only got the nod for its cello, piano and pipe organ.
Admittedly it was a little difficult to decide in some categories, as we don't get like-for-like voices (such as on the strings comparison) and the playing isn't very idiomatic for the instrument being replicated in many cases.
However, throughout the experience, it became clear to me is that while some of Korg's basic samples are indeed superior to the Genos, the thing which pushes the Yamaha back to the front time and again is the way notes connect to each other. Closing your eyes, you are still aware of individual keys being pressed in the Korg's melody lines, whereas the Genos articulations sounds much closer to the instrument being replicated.
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hi AidanG,
Being at Yamaha dedicated forum, we can easily help you with your decision -obviously! ;D
Joking aside: trust your ears and your gut and that's it. One can make excellent music with either of these two keyboards: the result will always depend on you.
Some of us will say "this one sounds better" or "is easier to operate", etc. But that's always subjective and depends on your wishes, expectations, needs and finally, on your creativity skill. If I would buy (better than I have) keyboard right now, then I sure know what that would be -but my reasons don't necessary mirror yours.
That is, if you have a feeling that you like Genos more than PA5X, then that should be a reason enough (for you).
Bogdan
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After I owned one for about 8 months or so, personally I thought the sounds on the PA5X were relatively poor compared to the Genos, certainly solo sounds.
The strings were probably the only department I would say the Korg had a definitive advantage over the Genos and there is a massive amount of good synth sounds on board.
Some of the styles on the Korg were great though; very well done and the extra percussion pad options made them absolutely awesome and inspiring to play with.
You can actually use the smaller selection of styles in several categories in a more flexible way I found.
But... the ABSOLUTE biggest letdown on the PA5X vs Genos is the lack of registrations. If you are used to those on the Yamahas? Don't even bother thinking about a Korg!
Also if you care about recording to WAV. I thought recording to MP3 was just something I could change in the settings, it's not. I found that completely insane considering the twin micro SD card expansion options and the fact you can actually import WAVs. I know some think there is no difference in recording quality but to me I thought it was a crazy limitation considering even budget $500 digital pianos /keyboards can usually record to wav.
Mickey Mouse compared to Yamaha I was sorry to conclude and I was not the only one who thought on the official Facebook group after really trying with the machine. We got our critical messages removed mostly.