PSR Tutorial Forum
The PSR Tutorial Forum (5 Boards) => PSR Tutorial News => Topic started by: Joe W on January 11, 2022, 12:06:09 AM
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The bill to renew PSR Tutorial for another year comes due in less than two weeks. It will cost me $3000. Is PSR Tutorial still worth it? I have a dedicated server that supports not only this forum but also the main PSR Tutorial web site. Roger spends a lot of time taking care of the forum and I spend my time taking care of the main web site. Resources I have created on the main web site bring in the revenue to pay the bills. But maybe the content is getting old and people are no longer interested. I know I am getting old and finding it more difficult to keep up with things. I'd like some input from members about moving into the future.
Should we take on another Year? Do we need more "Lessons"? Is the PSR Performer section worth keeping? Maybe performers would just as soon simply use the forum to post their songs temporarily and a permanent page listing is not valuable. Should archived performers be merged with current performers? We have a lot of styles available. Do we need additional new style collections? What is needed to make the PSR Tutorial "better"? Will new users continue to stumble on to the PSR Tutorial and discover the resources available here and in the forum? Any feedback on these questions would certainly be appreciated.
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Dear Joe,
I'm speaking for myself, but I'd have to think that many other members of the forum have to feel the same way. I think you and Roger do a stellar and amazing job keeping things going with the web and the forum. As you know I've contributed in the past, and am willing to do so now to help defray the costs incurred with the site. I hope other members would feel that way too... same as PBS Television, NPR radio, and the different news papers/ blogs, magazines that people subscribe. I truly wish that we had some corporate participation from Yamaha for this site that means so much to so very many.
I wish I could come up with some kind of constructive suggestions. I visit the forum at least once a day on the average... sometimes more, and have benefitted from music, styles, specific help for a specific situation, enjoyed the performances from so many members. I've said it before, the design of the site with all it's excellent and in-depth content for so many keyboards, players at many different levels is nothing short of miraculous. In ways... the old cliche "heading cats" might apply here, and somehow you and Roger keep out the riff riff, and keep things available and organized in an almost perfect way. Even all the old performances, lessons, recommendations, musical sources, styles, are well archieved so that a quick search brings up more answers than any other source.
I know Roger spends more than a full time job on this. And I know you do too. At the very least, you really should hear from the members about how important and appreciative we all are to you and the other moderators for an almost flawless job. I'm sure it gets old, especially with you both doing what would usually demand a team in a vacuum where this effort goes unappreciated. Others may have suggestions on how to improve things, but I think everything is great the way it is. I hope we'll all help with some $ for the expenses knowing how valuable this is to us every single day. Gratefully and sincerely, John
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Hello Joe,
I have asked myself the same question on whether it is worth keeping my forum going. There are not many new keyboards coming along and most seem to have mastered what they want to do with theirs so questions have dropped off. There is so much on things like You Tube now giving very good tuition on using these newer keyboards where you can also ask questions and get answers. Seems to be the way things are going now. As for styles I think most people have large stores of these and doubt they are used much. We all seem to use about twenty of our favourite ones for our performances. Lots of people now us Multi Tracking to create songs where they don't use styles at all.
Many people are now putting there performances on Face Book now so I find not that many being posted on forums. Alas things are changing and the pandemic seems to have changed some peoples minds on what they now want. There are a lot of live streams now of people performing for us where you can interact with many friends as you listen. This came about on Face Book to try and cheer people up during Lock Down an has become very popular.
It is a hard decision to make but personally feel things have changed over the last couple of years and Face Book groups are taking the place of some forums.
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Hi Joe
First of all let me thank you and Roger for the stellar work you both do in the upkeep of this site
Many of the observations you make are correct The world is changing and so is the keyboard world
But for me one thing remains Community
You guys have built a home for people who have one thing in common Playing keyboards
I have been a member for almost 20 years and this site is my go to place if I need advice or help on any topic relating to my keyboards from 740 to Genos
Sure there is You tube and other sources but this site is where it all comes together
I also love to browse around the site at least once a week to see what is new
I agree some of you seniors may wish to revamp the site Take out some old wood Look what is not used very often now a days
BUT please keep the community together In this day and age it is more important than ever
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Joe,
Thank y'all for all of your work on this website!
Forum - yes, definitely it's useful and relevant, especially given the community as chesterkins mentioned.
One thing I'd recommend is an improved Styles database. You have tens of thousands of styles on this website, but finding one for a particular use is challenging! Make it highly searchable (author, name/comments, time signature - maybe including actual time signature rather than just the coded time signature, associated song names, supported keyboards, etc.), even a JavaScript-based "recommend" tool would be awesome (there are already JavaScript-based drum machines out there for preview listening), and allow people to comment on and "like" or rate particular styles.
- Greg
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Joe,
We need you and this forum.
Here's a suggestion to perhaps keep the site going. Let all members (3800+) contribute $2 each. That way we can all say we helped and nobody will go broke in the process.
I think you could use more assistance. You and Roger seem to be spending a lot of time maintaining the forum. There are other moderators as well who just might be getting a little weary; They too should be honoured for their contribution.
What say you, members?
Can you help out monetarily or otherwise?
regards
Ron
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Dear Joe! For me, this forum and the PSR Tutorial site is home. I visit many times a day. I have learned so much since joining, and gotten so many helpful friends here! This is the best forum ever. Period! I use all resources here, styles, songs, Performer's section, lessons, and I think all have their value and must be continued.
I think keeping things just as they are is the best.
But you and Roger work very hard, so do other moderators too. Maybe a good idea to involve more people to work on the pages?
As for interest in the different resources I think that will vary, and that is natural. Sometimes people talk much about packs, other times they want to collect styles or listen to songs. I will gladly contribute to cover the running costs of the PSR Tutorial, and so will many others. A membership fee is all right with me, but maybe not so easy to administrate when members are from all over the world? This forum is heaven sent, so please continue it, or a lot of us will be lost in the desert, devastated!
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Joe,
As always I have appreciated the work you've done here and of course I know Roger plays a vital role here too. I may not visit the site on a daily basis but I frequent it several times per week. I would gladly pay a subscription fee to see the site continue on.
As a side note I've made a number of friends here and we keep in contact on a regular basis. There are even friends I've who are no longer with us they have passed on.
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Joe - you created this forum, and it has become a true focal point for the arranger community. Yes, things have changed, especially in the last few years, but its relevance clearly continues as evidenced by the fairly busy user base. It is your baby, and along with Roger, it is your your efforts that keep it alive.
However, you and Roger cannot go on supporting this forever, and at the end of the day, it is really your decision if it should continue. And it is even possible that the decision is taken out your hands by events, where one or both of you are unable to continue.
Could some things be changed on the site, - probably but do you really want to take on that work at this time of your life?
You might want to consider running it for another year while you find someone who wishes to take it over, and transition to them. Then it becomes someone else’s decision about making changes, and the ensuing work.
You could of course just keep running it until you cannot - at which point it precipitously ends. That would be sad.
Mike
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Hi Joe, Roger,
It will be a sad day if the site ends. I wonder if some of it (Forumn) could also move to Fakebook too? It won't be as good as this community. But better than loosing it altogether.
Kind Regards
Colin
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Hi Colin,
There are quite a few good sites on Face Book already and some really good instructional videos on You Tube of the newer keyboards. Lots of people also giving live performances from professionals to home players. I think this is the reason that a lot of forums are very quite now.
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The bill to renew PSR Tutorial for another year comes due in less than two weeks. It will cost me $3000. Is PSR Tutorial still worth it? I have a dedicated server that supports not only this forum but also the main PSR Tutorial web site. Roger spends a lot of time taking care of the forum and I spend my time taking care of the main web site. Resources I have created on the main web site bring in the revenue to pay the bills. But maybe the content is getting old and people are no longer interested. I know I am getting old and finding it more difficult to keep up with things. I'd like some input from members about moving into the future.
Should we take on another Year? Do we need more "Lessons"? Is the PSR Performer section worth keeping? Maybe performers would just as soon simply use the forum to post their songs temporarily and a permanent page listing is not valuable. Should archived performers be merged with current performers? We have a lot of styles available. Do we need additional new style collections? What is needed to make the PSR Tutorial "better"? Will new users continue to stumble on to the PSR Tutorial and discover the resources available here and in the forum? Any feedback on these questions would certainly be appreciated.
I think you can better host a website in the Netherlands : its probably cheaper ?
https://www.keurigonline.nl/
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Dear Joe, I whole heartedly endorse all the previous posts, this forum is invaluable to all of us members. I would also agree with Ron that $2 is very little to ask us all to give and even as Stephen said a $2 subscription each year would still be wonderful value. Please continue with the forum if you are still enjoying it, I’m sure there must be something we can all contribute to ensure the continuance of this magical site.
Kind regards
Dave Melia
Cheshire, England
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Hi Joe and everyone
I also would like the PSR Tutorial Forum to continue as it is
I also think we should at least cover the cost somehow
I propose a yearly membership payment from everyone, I think this would be better than some folks donating and others contributing nothing, the reason I say this is because donations from a few probably leave a large gap to be covered by Joe, if everyone paid something in the whole cost could be covered
The amount we pay needs to be enough to cover the variations in membership, the membership might go down a little when a membership fee is required so this needs to be taken into account
I think two dollars is cutting it too fine, the amount needs to be realistic
Adrian
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Dear Joe - I visit each and every day. Don't use it as much, because my PSR 950 is old hat and I'm 87. Like Ron I'd be more than happy to contribute to keep it going. - Norm
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I think two dollars is cutting it too fine, the amount needs to be realistic
I agree . I only mentioned $2 to illustrate that it wouldn't take a lot of money if EVERYONE kicked in little. Gee. $2 won't even buy a cup of coffee at Starbuck's.
If small contribution scares people off, well then, do we need them?
Most will contribute; some will walk. So be it.
Sooner or later, we're going to have to face the music.
regards
Ron
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I have been a member of both Eileen's and Joe's forums since 2006. Without either one of them I probably would have given up playing arranger keyboards. The members of these forums were far more helpful than I find the current Youtube of Facebook videos to be. Not only that, but often I would post a question and within minutes there would be an answer posted.
I know this has changed. Many members have aged out or died and it seems like the newer members just don't follow a lot of the posts anymore.
Anyway, I truly hope both Eileen and Joe keep these forums going for the benefit of all of us.
Deane
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What I can gather from Joe's writing is that it is not the bill that is in question.
Resources I have created on the main web site bring in the revenue to pay the bills
He asks for feedback about all the extra's that the website/forum has to offer. Are these extra's still needed ?
Do we need more "Lessons"? Is the PSR Performer section worth keeping? Maybe performers would just as soon simply use the forum to post their songs temporarily and a permanent page listing is not valuable. Should archived performers be merged with current performers? We have a lot of styles available. Do we need additional new style collections? What is needed to make the PSR Tutorial "better"? Will new users continue to stumble on to the PSR Tutorial and discover the resources available here and in the forum?
The forum is for me the place to be if I have questions about my keyboard, or to answer at questions from other users.
For me this is the best forum I know about Yamaha keyboards. Thank you Roger.
The website (Utilities - Volbragt) is the place where I can publish my software programs (MixMaster, PadMakers, OpenText), and make them available for all the forum users. My thanks to Joe for making this possible.
I almost don't use any of the other extra's available at PsrTutorial.
This is my use of the website/forum, and I'm sure other users would have different preferences.
Regards
Etienne
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Yes, many of you are all missing the point. This is not a plea for money ( although that is always helpful). This is about whether the website has a place going forward given all the other social media options.
Joe mentions the money only because that sparks a clear decision point.
Mike
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Like Deane I have been a member of this forum, as well as Eileen’s, for some years and have benefitted enormously from them both. The Yamaha manuals are ok but they seem to be written for people who already know how to play and are little help in explaining how to use all these features in a musical context. This is where the forums have been so helpful. Indeed I would have given up where it not for the help I have received.
I very much hope that the forums can continue but whatever happens a big thank you to Joe, Roger and Eileen and all the other moderators etc. for all your hard work.
I can offer little in the way of practical assistance but if an annual subscription would help I would be very happy with that.
A lot of people I know refuse to have anything to do with Facebook. I don’t use it myself but that’s more to do with the fact I find it confusing so I personally hope things can continue as at present.
Regards
Stuart L
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For my part the most valuable types of information found on the site are tips and techniques for operating the keyboard and exploiting its features, tips about gigging, reviews and recommendations regarding auxiliary equipment of all types, and access to lead sheets. I like to hear of others' experiences and appreciate the sense of community found here. I seldom listen to music performances as there are other venues in which they may be found, so would not miss the Performers Pages. Like other members I am very appreciative of the work of Joe, Roger and the other moderators and hope it is possible to continue operations. I do not have web management skills but would volunteer to assist with general administrative tasks and gladly support the effort financially if that becomes an issue.
j.
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I am new to the Forum and from the beginning when I introduced myself I received warm greetings from you. Your welcome says a lot.
The work of having created and developed this wonderful group, where the knowledge about the arrangers, at all levels, is of the highest quality. I have had the experience of being in other groups but this one has a special organization and information by the tons. Let's do everything we can to keep it. Thank you very much Joe and Roger for this Forum, The Forum
Greetings
Carlos
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Hi Joe, I want to thank you for this wonderful forum.
honestly it would seem very sad that the forum is over.
I hope there is a solution for this precious forum to remain.
I agree that we can all contribute our grain of sand with a small contribution, so that the PSR TUTORIAL forum continues.
Cheers
Hans
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Hi
Joe, you are starting an important discussion about your website and forum. I consider both to be some of the most important - perhaps the most important - resources worldwide; and I'm around the forum every single day. Everything is well organized both on the website and the forum. Then everything is good! Or?
As you yourself mention, there has been a break in information on the web these years; and this coupled with the desire to still be at the forefront of the latest knowledge - without forgetting all the old stuff - requires constant maintenance and development. A job that you and Roger do great.
But what does the future hold? You yourself mention that you - and all the rest of us - do not get younger - on the contrary. And then the doubt as to whether all the effort is appreciated. But let me be clear that they do!
As most of you probably know, I have had my own well-visited website since 1999 - see footer on this post. And I'm going through the same considerations as you are. Is it worth the effort to continue? Is there interest in it? Can I do it? Do I have to buy a Genos just to keep up with the technology and thus be able to update and develop my software programs? (It becomes difficult as a pensioner to find the money). So I, like you, am looking for some feedback in the first place; and then I have to see if my strength and finances are sufficient.
When I now touch on the economy, I think it's a very, very big cost you have for hosting website and forum. I know very well that this topic is not your main point with your post; but it really must be possible to make it much cheaper.
I really hope you take a year - or better yet many years - with the website and the forum. The opposite will be a huge loss for all of us.
Jørgen
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When I now touch on the economy, I think it's a very, very big cost you have for hosting website and forum. I know very well that this topic is not your main point with your post; but it really must be possible to make it much cheaper.
I really hope you take a year - or better yet many years - with the website and the forum. The opposite will be a huge loss for all of us.
Jørgen
Well 3000 USD /year that seems to me not only server costs , but also some expensives for help from other people who must be paid for this ?
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Joe runs a 'Dedicated server', not a 'simple' VPS.
Google 'Dedicated server prices' and you get an idea about the prices.
Regards
Etienne
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Sorry to hear the forum is at a crossroads.
Like many others I enjoy regular visits to the forum and understand the effort it takes to run the show, so thank you
so much for all the work you have put in to get it this far.
We appreciate it.
I agree with the subscription idea but would pitch it at around £5 per year.
Its a small sum to secure the forum's future and hopefully would cover any website costs involved in collecting subscriptions.
Another option would be advertising. (I would prefer a static adverts as the pop ups drive me mad!)
I can think of a number of UK keyboard suppliers that would be interested.
Also agree with the styles database suggestions by Greg B earlier.
Not too bothered about the Performers section personally but this forum does at least give performers who are shy of Youtube exposure an outlet for their performances.
For me the great advantage of this forum is that I get to hear the views, thoughts and experiences of everybody who loves playing Yamaha keyboards.
So hope the forum carries on.
Good luck!
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Joe runs a 'Dedicated server', not a 'simple' VPS.
Google 'Dedicated server prices' and you get an idea about the prices.
Regards
Etienne
Why not using a business hosting package ?
I see here : a premium package for 35 USD/ month
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Our Business packages are optimized for the business user where availability and security of data are extra important. For example, all mail traffic is routed via SSL, you have extensive incoming and outgoing spam filtering and free 30 day backups.
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greetings
Jan
I asked for advice: the person couldn't tell this after he has looked at the website ..
Also the payment options ( cost money) can be simplified by only accepting Payal
As now the costs for a dedicated server..i ask too ?
Seems to be not a complicated site with only html pages and a forum page in .php for installing on a server
But maintance and expansion of the website is probably not done personally by Joe , but with a website building specialist with Dreamweaver website build tool ?
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Ought to be able to see how many people are currently visiting the site monthly and what percent are frequently visiting. If that number isn’t well above 500 I would be surprised.
Charging a $5 year membership fee seems reasonable to me for what you get from this site. You figure you have 500 people join each year. That’s $2500 of your $3000 cost covered.
Then you stop storing MP3 files on the site.
Let each of the current “Performers” store their own MP3 files at BOX.com (or another similar site). You can then put a link to their BOX account at the bottom of their Current page. You cut the expense of storing all those thousands of files and the cost of the band width used of people playing them each year.
What we have to offer in our “Charter/Supporting members” section is worth every bit of $5 to members who have to note read to play their keyboard ALONE. All of that material is stored off site at Google Drive and Box sites. No cost for storage or band width to the members is involved now.
If any of this material is not stored off site it needs to be moved there.
That is a couple ideas to balance your budget (the retired financial accountant in me coming out).
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Hi Joe, I would like to add my voice to keeping this tutorial and forum going and like many others would be happy to contribute. I post songs quite often as you know but I also wander around the site at least a couple of times a week looking at comments on questions. I have also like many others taken advantage of many of the styles over the years. What many others say about community is so true...FB and You tube are great for doing stuff but lack the personal interaction. I have made many friends on here and that in a world which is so disconnected is so important....best wishes. David
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Hi Joe, I would like to add my voice to keeping this tutorial and forum going and like many others would be happy to contribute. I post songs quite often as you know but I also wander around the site at least a couple of times a week looking at comments on questions. I have also like many others taken advantage of many of the styles over the years. What many others say about community is so true...FB and You tube are great for doing stuff but lack the personal interaction. I have made many friends on here and that in a world which is so disconnected is so important....best wishes. David
fb and you tube also lack a clear structure with division of content into different sections. it makes it almost impossible to find and retrieve information.
Jørgen
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Jørgen has a good point. I have given up facebook groups for this reason!
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Joe, you've done an amazing job with this website & forum... I can only imagine how much hard work you've put into it.
I miss google+ (that was an awesome free service... that they realized they weren't making any money on and now it's business accounts only... D'oh!).
But would it be possible to migrate the site to one of the lower cost webhosting services like wix, godady, hostpapa, Wordpress etc?
https://www.pcmag.com/picks/the-best-cheap-web-hosting-services
It doesn't eliminate the fee, but at 1/10th the cost it might be a *lot* easier to scare up enough annually.
Mark
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I think I have made more friends on Face Book during the lock down than I have in many years. If you join the right group we all submit songs or give live performances Talk about our keyboards and help one another out in general. We have also had some lovely concerts performed by professional players people like Jean Martyn Chris Powel and others which has kept a lot of us going during these hard times plus there have been some great instructional demonstrations where you could ask questions on the live feed and get answers so I won't knock it because when forums became quite the interest was kept going by Face Book and Messenger video calls are great for showing people how to do things face to face and id dose not cost anything to belong.
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I am always sceptical about cost saving ideas being thrown in from the “outside” because most of the time it is not fully researched. And even if costs could be lowered, any migration is more work, and surely the last thing Joe and Roger want. Joe is 77, Roger is 81 they can’t keep doing this forever. I am 76 so I understand how they feel.
But I also notice is that no younger person is jumping up and saying they would like to take this website on.
Mike
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Hello Joe and everyone in this forum.
I have been a member since December 2020 when I first purchased my arranger keyboard. I had no idea of how it worked but read a lot about it. Even so I was prepared to return to the place of purchase because it intimidated me and had no support from the dealership or even “Yamaha Support”, what a let down. I looked for support locally but not much for a newbie to go on. Then I found this forum and it was complete heaven for me. Today, I would NEVER let this keyboard go. Not only did I learn so much in a short time and still learning with a long way to go. The communication with forum members and support we provide each other is second to none.
My forum signature is something that I have believed in since I was old enough to reason and understand. “Life is a learning experience and sharing it is it's biggest reward!
I rely on this form because it is the place to get answers from very experienced, understanding, patient, talented, supportive members of all ages. Speaking of age, it seems that more and more people I talk to these days are turning to music. There is nothing more soothing than making and sharing music. These past two years I think of it as the most effective way to keep balance and harmony in our lives
Other social media platforms like Facebook have been mentioned, and very affective ways to communicate and while some have good experiences many on the other can misuse it. I for one and I am sure others like me don’t want to even go there. Why have the potential chaos when we can have the harmony in this form. I have seen that everyone follows the form code of ethics even when perhaps one may not agree on a response which is not a common thing. Facebook, Instagram on the other hand is a different fish.
A yearly subscription is not something to be afraid of when you get so much value in return. Look at these website that offer answers to questions on subjects like appliance repairs, auto repairs, etc. They charge a minimum $5 for an answer that you can get on utube or the internet. Yet they still are in business The forum here gives us lots of answers sometimes before we even ask the question.
A yearly subscription to me of $10 yr minimum, is in I my eyes still a small price to pay for the administrative time that is put into this form just to maintain it, let alone the hard costs to host the site. Joe and Roger, I would think that you have the numbers for the number of new members and those that go dormant after 6 months. You can use that to help determine what could be a fair year subscription. Of course one could say that in different parts of the world one dollar in Canada and USA would have a different value and fair enough that would be brought into consideration to arrive a a modest and fair amount. That of course should not prevent anyone from donating an additional amount if they want to. Deep down inside we all know the value that we get from this forum and passing forward our appreciation to continue this wonderful experience is the least that we can do.
What I don’t appreciate is when someone purchases a package from this form and then monopolizes it to sell those styles, voices, pads and midis and songs for a profit on EBAY for example and more than likely do not provide a donation to the form.
In my time here I have purchased 3 packages to help support the form, and all well worth it. Where else could I have gotten such great value for so little. It has given me a great appreciation for all that you talented members do for the love of music and the generosity of allowing people like my self to enjoy the fruits of your labour.
Every time that I log into this site I learn so much just by reading posts. What a wonderful, convenient and well structured place to learn.
Thanks to not only Joe, Roger and others that support this website, but thanks to each and every one of us for supporting each other in whatever way we can and see fit.
Let us all enjoy a happier New Year and let this forum be the place to go and fuel our love for music.
Sincerely. Dom
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We could all throw in $10 a year, $100 a year or even $1000 a year but it still won’t make Joe and Roger any younger. ;D. Why do people keep thinking a subscription solves this??
Mike
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Hi Mike.
Very simple. money does not by youth, you can look younger with a face lift with money of course. But kidding aside. I am hearing two things here. One how to bring the form to modern day. Well to that point sometimes the old works the best with simple modifications. What can this forum do to bring it up a notch, well nothing except to minimize the administrative work to maintain it with less overhead. Something like introducing automated tasks/scripts/welcome greetings, etc, remove some less active boards, , I don't know the tasks involved to be able to suggest more cost effective ways to reduce workload intensive tasks. Structure, and controls I think are very good.
Now what will the yearly $$ do, first and foremost cover the operating costs of the forum which someone has to pay or forfeit for lack of funds, which is not what we want. So how do we get that money? Now if the money can cover the cost of the forum and more, then the extra, perhaps can be used to hire someone to take on some of Joe's and Roger's activities giving them more precious free time to enjoy their lives outside of music and more
dom
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Joe never asked if we should have a subscription, he never asked for advice in cutting costs. But that is what most people have addressed!!
He asked if the website content needed to radically change to stay relevant, or even if there was a place for the website at all going forward. And also hinted strongly that he and Roger may not be able to keep this going for much longer. But most are answering questions he did not ask and ignoring the questions he did ask.
Mike
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If the site is worth it? Heck Yes it is. Anyone wanting to know how these keyboards work has to join this site. Nobody else has all the information in one spot like this site has put together.
When someone has a Question, an experience member is able to simple give them a LINK to a page here at the site which as the step by step instructions. Without this site holding all this information on it pages, it would be a real pain in the .... to have to re-type the information over and over again and again every 3 to 6 months for a new member.
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Mike, Joe's information can be interpreted in many ways. You are correct and so are the rest of us talking about our points. I am looking outside the box. Joe's first lines are this:
"The bill to renew PSR Tutorial for another year comes due in less than two weeks. It will cost me $3000. Is PSR Tutorial still worth it?"
First thing that comes to most of our heads is the cost of running the forum. It is costing Joe("me") as he states $3000. Why should it be costing him. Yes the rest of his comments deal with improvements. But will those improvements get him the $3000 to pay for the running costs, where are they coming from and is there enough to cover costs. If the idea was just to solicit ideas, I don't think that the mentions of $3000 would need to be there. Maybe just my interpretation. This is why we are on this point and trying to help address the initial and perhaps the most import point in keeping a forum running. Money!!
Then comes how to save workload which affects the cost, reducing data storage on the sever reduces cost leading what I think you are focusing on which is just as correct and addressing the same point in view. Reducing data storage means reducing content, reducing administration work to support/manage the life cycle of that data, which means less work for Joe and Roger and long term save what: MONEY, LABOUR! So after that is done and Joe and Roger are no longer doing the work, who will maintain it? Someone may not want to do it for free, so again money may be required to pay someone to do the work... This is the way I look at things.
Anyway why are you and I at odds here when we are both looking at the best interest of the forum. Better yet, why are you even not considering expanding Joe's comments to help out not only Joe but the fate of the forum.
Since you seem to know more than some of us, please put us on the right path by perhaps articulating your thoughts on improvement so that we can all have some kind of a template example of what we should all be considering in order to ensure that we do not go on a tangent like this and make this post more directed to Joe's exact ask.
Maybe Joe can steer us back on the straight and narrow since some of us are perceived of going of the path. Sorry. I am done here.
dom
I think I have said enough and I rest my case.
Regards. dom _
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I have put forward my thoughts quite clearly previous posts in this thread. And if you look at the “likes” you see both Roger and Joe, so what I am saying obviously resonates with them.
The annual paying of the main bill places Joe at a crossroads, a decision point. A decision becoming more difficult each year, not because he cannot find the money, but because he is getting older and questions if it is worth the continuing effort. Does he pay it and therefore by implication carry on for one more year, or does he decide now is the time to call it quits. Even if he decides to carry on this time, the same decision happens again next year.
I said before the only way I see this carries on for much longer ie beyond a year or two, is if it transitions to a younger person with the technical know how, fresh energy and willing to take it on. And it will be down to that person to decide if change is needed and make those changes - whether that is cost reduction, subscriptions, more resources or radical content change, - or all of these.
I am certainly not that person, are any of you?
Mike
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The core: let Joe W. place a large, eye-catching, advertisement on his (valued) site: wanted a young, energetic and music-loving person, who wants to continue this site in the short term. He/she gets the help of the existing moderators for a smooth transition. For info contact ....
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I myself only run a forum not a website. I do not ask and would not take donations to run it. I do it because I love Yamaha keyboards and have had so much pleasure from them. I know they can seem complicated to new and existing users and I get lots of I want to throw this thing out of the window. I just wanted to help people get the best from these lovely instruments. Then of course the next step for them to be encouraged to show us how they used it and set it up to entertain us with there songs. I give away styles from time to time that I have worked on and as I know how short some members time is I make sure these all work well and use them myself.
I also post registrations I have made to give an idea what is possible and to add variety to playing. I don't have moderators and don't allow Music books or sheet music to be shared on the site because of copy write. I believe our laws are a little different in the UK to else ware.
All this is paid for by me as it is what I enjoy doing and I am 85 this year by the way.
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That is admirable Eileen.
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If I interpret/translate Joe W.'s post correctly, the focus is on the PSR tutorial part. That seems 'to worry' him the most. Not so much in the forum section. I've had a similar website like this for many years. I can imagine that, due to ones age, it could be: enough is enough (and believe me: it costs a lot of time and energy). Human speaking: as soon as you start to wonder: do I have to go through with this? Than it usually doesn't take long before you drop the axe. Hopefully a successor will appear before then, if not: it is history...
I whish you all the best, Joe W. (c.s.), fingers crossed ;-)
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Thank you mikf
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First of all, let me express my Thanks and appreciation for all the members who have responded and contributed to this discussion. It helps illustrate the value of this PSR Tutorial forum community.
Second, let me assure everyone that I have paid the bill and we are good to go for another year. That bill, by the way, included not only the server itself, but technical management and support to take care of the software and updates needed to just keep servers up and running as well as other associated fees like domain name registration etc.
As mikf has suggested, paying the bill was not so much about the cost as about the decision to sign on for another year. This thread confirms that there are many people who appreciate the PSR Tutorial and would like to have it continue, more or less as is but with minor changes that may reduce upkeep and maintenance, which, for Roger and myself, is measured in hours not in dollars.
When the forum started, I looked for a way to generate income to cover financial costs. Providing CDs or resources seemed to be the answer. When someone ordered a CD, they became a "Supporter" in the forum -- for Life -- and had access to a wider array of forum resources. So, instead of paying, say $5/year, a purchase of $25 would provide access not for 5 years, but for life. Over the years, thanks to the generosity of many forum members, I have been able to collect and create new resources every year or so. You will notice many users have the term "Supporter" next to their name, meaning they have, at some time, provided support by ordering a data collection or making a donation. Others may have "PSR Performer" by their name meaning they have provided support by contributing their music to the PSR Tutorial. Some members are shown as "Senior Members" meaning they have shown their support by providing answers and comments in the forum on a regular basis.
There are donation buttons on the main web site as well as buttons to order any of the available data collections. That has worked and, I assume, will continue to work in 2022 as long as the main site is still there and maintained. The forum remains free and open to the public (just as the web site is free and open to everyone). In fact, most of the things provided in the various "collections" are available on the main website and can be freely downloaded from there. If the main site disappeared, we could switch the forum to some kind of subscription basis but no need to do that just now.
Fortunately, over time new Yamaha keyboards worked pretty much like earlier keyboards so most of the lesson material remained relevant. I've tried to supplement some lessons by using the screen shots from the new SX900 where the user interface is a bit different from earlier models.
I'm not so sure how valuable the coverage of MP3s are. Over the years, I have received over 8,600 MP3s. 4,800 are still available online. What to modify here may be a separate discussion.
In the meantime, the PSR Tutorial and the forum will continue through 2022. Maybe this will be the year Yamaha releases the next generation and we will have plenty of new things to talk about.
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Joe, did you hear my big sigh of relief all the way from Norway? A big thank you for taking on another year! ❤️
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Joe, thanks for your dedication and hard work along with Roger and others doing all the hard work behind the scenes to provide this world class forum. All your efforts do not go unnoticed and are greatly appreciated.
All the best! dom
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Thank you Joe for all the effort you do to continue this site/forum for another year.
Thanks to all the moderators that help you to keep this website/forum up and running.
Much appreciated.
Regards
Etienne
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Thank you kindly Joe and Roger
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Joe W,
If there is too much work to maintain things, prioritize and decide what can go and what should stay and... ask for volunteers. Charging a small membership fee is OK with me.
I agree with everyone that the site and forum serves a very useful purpose. Covid has prevented Yamaha from introducing new arranger models but that won't be forever. I hope you decide to keep the forum going.
Thanks a bunch for everything you and the Moderators due.
:)
Joe H
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First of all, let me express my Thanks and appreciation for all the members who have responded and contributed to this discussion. It helps illustrate the value of this PSR Tutorial forum community.
Hi Joe
Well, the solution is to ask 7,50 USD from every registered user and if some people more contribute by a donation that should be fantastic.
Its a dministration ok, but hope that members willing to pay at the start of the New Year
So you could right now start for this new year ..asking for membership contribution.
That's good for your wallet and mood and remember every hobby costs money ;D
Jan
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Thank you, Joe. It's pretty amazing what you have done to bring Yamaha arranger players together from all over the world. I sure appreciate it and always continue to check PSRtutorial for something new and interesting. Looks like I will continue to do just that in 2022!
;D
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Joe,
I too am most appreciative of the hours and hours you and Roger give to this site.
I pity new keyboard owners the day when this wonderful resource might have to go away. They will have fun, but without the gigantic support you have made possible these many years.
- Royce
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Hi Joe, I echo what Royce and tomtom has posted, there maybe a solution to your time but it would be a very hard decision to make, and you have probably already thought of it.
To ease/reduce your work load
Take on another 1/2 Administrators maybe upgrade your current moderators if they want to take on the workload and appoint 1/2 new moderators to replace.
Perhaps the new administrators could look after the forum part and Yourself and Roger look after the support side or visa versa, and I am sure with Yours and Rogers guidance this
Forum and support website can remain. I know how difficult this could be to release the reins a bit but eventually the new admins will need to run it as efficiently as yourself and Roger and
take on the cost of running it.
Thanks again Joe, Roger, and all the moderators in the running of this excellent forum and support site, I certainly have got a lot out of this and made some very nice friends along the way.
Del
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Hello Joe,
it is a great relief to hear that the Forum will continue for another year. The help and advice and all the available resources are invaluable to me. You and Roger are indispensable in my view and I for one will be more than happy to pay an annual Subscription in order to maintain this very important and worthwhile site.
Best wishes to you both,
Richard.
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“Thank you, Joe and Roger”, sounds so inadequate, but please believe me, I mean it from the bottom of my heart. I count you and many of the members of this forum, as my friends. I bought my Arranger without any thoughts as to how I was going to use it. Google led me to the Lessons which got me started, and then to the Forum.
Like so many of us, the Forum is an important part of my life, and I sincerely hope that it will continue to be so.
Alan
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Dear Joe,
That your website and forum exist was the very reason I joined theYamaha users community (I really think Yamaha Corporation should support you) and I was very worried when reading your post. Transitioning to a subscription model could help you / us in the hiring of a dedicated person, with the mission of 1- to relieve you from tasks that you do not want to do anymore 2 - propose and implement changes to you and members so we can still have this invaluable place to rely on. I am thinking things like Newsletters with highlights of new contributions, hardware news, etc. I think Arranger keyboards lovers are 'specific' in their tastes and a market research on potential improvements in the whole PSR Forum experience would help - at a cost but many of us are willing to contribute.
Regards and thanks from France,
Thierry
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I just want to say how much I appreciate PSR Tutorial and would be more than willing to pay for membership in order to keep it going.
Marie
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Completely unrealistic to think you could hire people to do this work, there isn’t nearly enough revenue potential. Work it out - if 200 people paid $10 that isn’t even enough to cover basic server costs never mind pay anyone. Supporting these kind of websites is a voluntary thing, a labor of love. Just like Eileen says, as in any hobby, you put time and money in, you don’t expect anything out.
Mike
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A huge thank you to Joe & Roger for everything they do and also to the moderators and members who contribute in the many ways that they do.
I would gladly pay a subscription or make regular donations to keep this forum going as I have received so much in advice, resources and friendships..
I find one of the main strengths that this forum has over Facebook is honest, unbiased opinion and reviews, delivered in a fair and uncompromising manner. Not only about the hardware but also playing techniques and education in general.
Long may it continue.
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Thank you Joe and Roger and others assisting for the continuation of this very valuable forum. I go on the forum almost every day when I'm able to as I enjoy reading the posts and picking up some gems of wisdom to use my Genos and also some music theory. I hope the forum continues for many years to come and I would gladly pay a subscription if that becomes necessary to keep the forum going.
Much appreciation.
Murray
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Completely unrealistic to think you could hire people to do this work, there isn’t nearly enough revenue potential. Work it out - if 200 people paid $10 that isn’t even enough to cover basic server costs never mind pay anyone. Supporting these kind of websites is a voluntary thing, a labor of love. Just like Eileen says, as in any hobby, you put time and money in, you don’t expect anything out.
Mike
If you know something about website building, then "Dreamweaver" could be a good assistant to deal with all the things on this website.
For example adding a menu entrie(s) and content and some more elementairy stuff ,and more this can be done easily with Dreamweaver.
Well Joe said 3000 USD /year it costs him , so a 2000 USD income for him should be very welcome for him.
Indeed a labour of love
Note: if there are some people among us on this site , who are in a position where money plays no role ?
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Well JOE , a really big thanks for all the great work you doing to this website, its really one of the best websites , i ever used ,and learn so much of it.
I would also make a contribution each year to stay the website on air. hope's this will go further.
Many many thanks to you and also to other members to share the knowledge and materials on this site.
Best Regards from Belgium. and fine 2022 to all the members. 8)
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Well, I am glad to see this forum will remain. I don't come here every day, and honestly I don't find all that many threads of interest. But for those that are of interest, and to have the newbie questions I ask answered, well, this site is just WELL worth having around. I can't think of any other place I would consider going to when I want to have a question about my Genos answered by knowledgeable and experienced people.
FYI, I run several message boards myself. Nothing at all even close to being related to the content here. I have also run a site that did poorly a long while back, but I was able to sell it for more than it was reasonably worth. I doubt that will ever happen again. Only one I currently run about of four message board sites is doing all that well, with over 160,000 registered members. But it has been around for 20 years, and that detail is important. With the explosion of popularity (infestation?) of facebook, things took a dramatic nosedive across the board. A LOT of forum sites went kaput as a result. Many, many others I frequent sometimes are just hanging on by a thin thread. One in particular (a Corvette related site) was just massive), but is just a shadow of itself now. I believe the combination of facebook (and other so-called "social media" style sites) along with the smart phone revolution in personal communications overwhelmed the older style forum/message board style sites. Many sites got drained of participation like just punching a hole in a bucket. BTW, is this site compatible with smart phone technology? If not, it is behind the eightball and that really should be changed. Seems like most people have abandoned their desktop and laptop PCs and really only access the internet via their cell phones any longer. Me, being a dinosaur, just refuse to do that. I am a touch typist, and can't stand those little keypads on phones, nor can I stand the eyestrain of trying to view the internet on those little cell phone screens. But I still had to make my sites compatible for people who were not dinosaurs like me.
I also have a dedicated server that comes with full management, so I can leave all the server details to the server guys. I just decided I didn't want to have to deal with those kind of details day in and day out. I have been through a lot of server resellers over the years, and the guys I have now have been just great to work with. I have a really good vBulletin programmer that is indispensable to me. I have to use an older version of vBulletin because of all the custom mods done to the message board software, but my programmer is nothing less than an expert with this stuff. I used to do programming myself in my younger days, but it is a talent that quickly fades when those brain muscles are not exercised frequently. Programming is not all that hard, but it is extremely tedious, and quite honestly my memory just isn't that good to where I can remember all the syntax details needed for such efforts. My programmer gets a percentage of the Google Adsense revenue so he is basically on retainer for whenever I need him. Works well for both of us that way.
As for membership contributions, well, the flame will burn hot if you ask for it, but won't burn for long. People come and go in message board systems. If you don't have a constant supply of new members, the site will slowly be dying on the vine. Of the 160,000 registered members on my main website, there are only currently 16,500 ACTIVE members. Which has been dropping steadily for a while now. Used to be I would get 50 new registrations per day. Now it is only about 15 or so per day. It is like filling a bucket with water that has a hole in the bottom. Unless the amount of water being added is more than the leak, eventually the bucket will just be wet on the bottom, without enough to bother keeping the bucket around.
Out of those 16,500 active members, I have 240 contributing members of various levels. I also have paid banner and text based advertising that members pay for. And on top of that I have third party advertising via Google Adsense and InfoLinks. Together they all help to keep my site(s) running in the black and honestly provide enough income to supplement my retirement income to make it worthwhile spending my time battling the constant barrage of spammer registrations and other headaches that are inherent in this sort of effort. Yeah, it is fun and it feels worthwhile running a member based message board system, but sooner or later you start thinking about what your time is worth. Especially when you see membership participation dying on the vine, you start to wonder why even bother with it? If your members don't appreciate it enough to participate, then why exactly should you care enough to keep it running? Been there and done that myself with the other sites I run that are basically dead. But the main site pays the bills for my server, and it really doesn't cost me much beyond the domain name leasing for the dead sites, so I keep them around. Of course there are other hidden benefits of running a forum based business in the form of business deductions you can take. So, don't underestimate the value of this!
Honestly, in your shoes, I would seriously look into third party advertising services. Google Adsense is based on actual clicks of the ads to generate revenue, and InfoLinks is based on just raw views of the ads they provide. They seem to compliment each other well Of course the more traffic you have, the better the revenue will be, but heck if you could just earn $10 per day with that advertising, you would be operating in the black here. Anything more than that would just be gravy. Are such ads a minor pain in the butt for viewers? Sure. But if presented with the choice of either putting up with the ads or the site goes kaput, I think most will gladly put up with the ads.
Every message board is different, and attracts a different type of clientele. The primary criteria you need to consider is "what does your site offer that people want, and is there anything unique about it that makes it stand above every other similar competing site?" Everyone has a limited amount of time to spend on the internet. Facebook and text messaging on the cell phone with the constant barrage of notices of new messages, sucks up a lot of time from a lot of people. This will be extremely difficult to overcome. Maybe not even possible to do so. You have good intentions with starting up and running this site. But perhaps thinking about making this where it is helping YOU financially is justified for your long term satisfaction for what you are doing. Seems the older I get, the more I consider my time as being EXTREMELY valuable to me. After all, having an income can be considered as just another measure of just how valuable people believe in what you are doing for them. It is NOT dirty to make money off of your efforts. Matter of fact, many years ago someone said something to me that had a huge impact on my life. He said "Rich, figure out something that you really like to do, and are going to do it anyway, and make a business out of it." IMHO, that advice was just pure gold to me.
Anyway, just my opinions. I read this thread a couple of days ago, but have been waiting for a rainy day to spend the time to put in my two cents. If you need any opinion based advice from me, ask away. I sure as heck don't know everything about this stuff, but I have tried every method I could think of to make my sites as successful as possible and still stay within the specs of ME being happy with what I was doing with the site and for the people they are targeted to attract. If you want to have a private conversation, then that is OK with me. Just don't expect, or even hope, that I will have all the correct answers, or even most of them. At the very least you will get what you paid for from my suggestions. :)
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Odd... Why can't I set this thread to send me notifications of replies? :-\
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Odd... Why can't I set this thread to send me notifications of replies? :-\
There is an option in your profile settings 'Notifications'. Maybe something can be done there?
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I joined this forum and soon found out that it must be the best forum and website in the world, not only because of the content, but also because it is so orderly! Everything is easy to find, and no disturbing ads are in the way. There are many fine forums out there, but I give up almost instantly because they are so tricky to navigate for me. I am visually impaired, so logic and order is very important. Here everything is placed neatly into cathegories, the text is easy to read, no dark themes with brown letters on black, no popping up ads that you don't know how to put away so you can see the text. Please don't bring in third party ads! My dream is that the forum can remain as it is indefinitely, but I understand the immense workload and the intervention of Father Time. He is not a friend of this forum, but unfortunately we have to count him in!
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I joined this forum and soon found out that it must be the best forum and website in the world, not only because of the content, but also because it is so orderly! Everything is easy to find, and no disturbing ads are in the way. There are many fine forums out there, but I give up almost instantly because they are so tricky to navigate for me. I am visually impaired, so logic and order is very important. Here everything is placed neatly into cathegories, the text is easy to read, no dark themes with brown letters on black, no popping up ads that you don't know how to put away so you can see the text. Please don't bring in third party ads! My dream is that the forum can remain as it is indefinitely, but I understand the immense workload and the intervention of Father Time. He is not a friend of this forum, but unfortunately we have to count him in!
Yep, I don't like ads on websites much neither. But I understand why they are there. Quite honestly, don't you think it might be best to consider what might be best for the guys working hard to keep this site here for you, instead of solely what you think is best for you? Isn't some minor inconvenience worth it to allow running this site to be worth it to them in a more substantive measure? IMHO. I think I have a pretty good handle on what is required to run websites. Personally I don't think it fair of anyone to continually ask the people doing so to continue doing so forever, FOR FREE.
And for the record, the ads could always be set to exclude being viewed by contributing members if that route is decided to be explored as well.
But again, this is only a suggestion related to what I found after 20 years was needed to make things "work" (relatively speaking) for my sites.
One thing I have found over the years is that it is almost as rare as finding unicorn feathers for everyone to agree on ANY change made to a website. Many people are severely resistant to change, no matter what it is, or why it needs to happen. That seems to almost be a law of the internet, in my experience.
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We may not have resolved all the issues for the coming year, but the main question is resolved -- we are going forward for another year. The web site will stay, the forum will stay. I do, in fact, use DreamWeaver to maintain the main PSR Tutorial web site. The forum is based on Simple Machines software and it is managed by Roger and the other moderators. Because we generate revenue by offering a variety of resource collections, I have not added outside advertisers to the web site or to the forum. The work done by myself and the moderators is a labor of love rather than a job.
In the last week or two, I have been working to update the PSR Performers section of the PSR Tutorial. I have moved many Performer pages from the "Current" to the "archived" section. If a performer has not added any new songs in the past two and a half years, they are moved to the archived section. I have done a number of things to standardize those pages and minimize any maintenance. With no new songs being added, they are static pages not requiring upkeep. If an "archived" performer sends in additional songs, the page can be moved once more to the Current section.
Reviewing past performers, I was reminded of many old friends. Some had contributed to the web site over several years. And, of course, some are, unfortunately, no longer with us. I have indicated that on pages where I knew a performer had passed away. If anyone sees archived performers who are deceased, please let me know. I am inclined to keep those pages up as our tribute to these past performers.
Performer songs are on the performer pages and they allow performers to share their music. However, if anyone is interested in a particular song, it is not easy to find it on those performer pages. But there is the alphabetical list of MP3 songs. My new current project is to make sure that alphabetical list is still there and all the links are correct, particularly since I revised main folder names.
In the previous archived section, performers only had at most 20 songs that remained on their page. In transferring these new performers, I kept ALL of their songs on their pages. I'm considering the next step to be adding more MP3s that were earlier retired to the archive performer pages. That will expand the number of MP3s available in the alphabetical listings.
We have closed off this topic so I will launch a new one on the PSR Performer changes to solicit some feedback and suggestions about how to update and maintain that section.