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Yamaha Keyboards (4 Boards) => Yamaha Keyboards - General => Topic started by: Toril S on January 08, 2022, 08:43:55 PM

Title: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: Toril S on January 08, 2022, 08:43:55 PM
Hello friends :)
I see there is a therad about transposing and of learning to play in difficult keys, but I don't want to hijack that thread, so I am starting my own because my problem is a little different. In my case I have been playing accordion and a little piano all my life, but have never played together with others. I do not read music, but learn songs by listening to them. And here is where I have made a big mistake: If I want to learn a song, but the key is challenging for me, I just play it in a comfortable key. And on my keyboards I have my very much beloved transpose buttons! When I play accordion at a party no one notice that the song is played in a different key. No one comes up to me and says: "Shouldn't that waltz rather be played in f sharp?" They dance, talk and have a good time, and all is well. BUT now I have been asked to play in an accordion band!!!!! They all play by ear, so no problem there. The problem is all the keys I am not comfortable playing in!!! I fear I will have to decline, but have a big disire to at least try before I give up. So friends, all tips and advice is receiced with big thanks! My skill at playing the accordion in C, F and G is OK, but then we have those sharps and flats....
There will be no slepp for some nights!!
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: GregB on January 08, 2022, 09:21:55 PM
Toril,

It sounds like you have no problem hearing what relative chord is being played, so that's great. :)  It's very useful to have gotten to that point where you can naturally think of a chord progression in terms of scale degrees rather than absolute chord names.  For example, an IV (4) chord instead of an F chord in the key of C.

If you've pretty well mastered that, you're in good shape for playing by ear in any key; it's pretty much lots of practice until you gain the skill and muscle memory in all keys.  Scale practice is of course helpful.

What has also been helpful to me is to take a very simple familiar song, say with just three chords (I, IV, and V), and play it in every key.  Going around the circle of 5ths is useful as it means you gradually add one sharp or flat at a time.  So start by playing in C, then G, then D, then A, etc.  Then pick more familiar songs, gradually adding in the minor chords (IIm, IIIm, and VIm).  Then start to play some songs with borrowed (out of key / accidental) chords, such as playing a II or III (major) or whatnot.

(side note: a big difference between "nashville notation" using regular numerals for chords - 1, 4, 5 - and roman numeral notation - I, IV, V - is that the minors are assumed in nashville notation.  So your roman numeral chords I IIm IIIm IV V VIm would be just 1 2 3 4 5 6 in nashville notation.)

- Greg
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: Toril S on January 08, 2022, 09:52:40 PM
Thanks a lot Greg! Great advice!
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: mikf on January 08, 2022, 10:22:26 PM
Toril
It’s great to practice in a way that will make you comfortable in all keys, but you can also just choose to practice the specific songs in the keys they use in the band. I think that will be quicker. Ask for a list of songs they play and the keys they play in. Then start working on them. Quite quickly it will become comfortable to play each specific song in the designated key. In fact given a bit of time you might not want to play that song in any other key, even the theoretically easier keys.
Mike
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: Toril S on January 08, 2022, 11:06:24 PM
Thank you so much Mike! I will not give up on this, even if my level is not up to standard for the band. Practice, practice!
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: SciNote on January 09, 2022, 02:38:11 AM
These are all good suggestions.  The bottom line is to get familiar with the keys that you are currently unfamiliar with.  And to that, I would add learning what the notes are in each of the main keys, as that can help when learning songs and their chords.  For example, I'm sure you know that the C-major scale is all the white keys -- C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C, and that the G-major scale is similar, but starts with G and sharps the F (F#).  Well, I would try to learn those note patterns for all keys, such as Db-major being Db, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb, C, Db.  You could then do the same thing for the minor scales, as well.

And also, one of the first things I learned when I started learning how to play is the notes of all of the major, minor, diminished, augmented, major-7th, 7th, minor-7th, and diminished-7th chords.  Like learning the notes of the scales, as you become familiar with these chords, you will more instinctively know what notes to hit when playing songs in keys with lots of sharps or flats.  This could take a little while, but would be worth the effort.

I remember my teacher made me a chart that started with the notes of all of the major chords in root position, with those notes being called the 1st, the 3rd, and the 5th, as those are the positions of those notes on the major key scale.  Then she wrote the following:

For a minor chord, start with the major chord and lower the 3rd by a semitone
For a diminished chord, start with the major chord and lower the 3rd and 5th by a semitone
For an augmented chord, start with the major chord and raise the 5th by a semitone
I forget exactly what she did for 7th chords, but I think she started with a major 7th chord (adding a B in the C major scale), as that
   follows the notes of the scale -- (C, E, G, B for Cmaj7)
Then, lower that 7th by a semitone for just a 7th chord (C7 is C, E, G, Bb)
Add that "lowered 7th" note to a minor chord for a minor-7th chord (Cm7 is C, Eb, G, Bb)
and then, lower the major 7th by a whole tone and add it to a diminished chord for a diminished 7th chord
  -- (Cdim7 is C, Eb, Gb, A -- technically, the A would really be called a Bbb -- B-double flat -- to keep in protocol)

She also noted the white-key/black-key patterns of the root-position major chords to help me learn them more quickly...

C, F, and G major are white, white, white
D, E, and A major are white, black, white
Db (and C#), Eb (and D#), and Ab (and G#) major are black, white, black
Gb (and F#) major is black, black, black
Bb (and A#) major is black, white, white
and B major is white, black, black

Learning that for all the main chords can really help you get familiar with playing in different keys.  And once you learn the chords in root position, you start learning the actual notes of them (not just "flat the 3rd", etc) and you learn the different inversions of these chords.
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: Toril S on January 09, 2022, 10:17:26 AM
Thanks a lot Bob! Helpful advice!
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: ugawoga on January 10, 2022, 02:54:32 PM
Hello friends :)
I see there is a therad about transposing and of learning to play in difficult keys, but I don't want to hijack that thread, so I am starting my own because my problem is a little different. In my case I have been playing accordion and a little piano all my life, but have never played together with others. I do not read music, but learn songs by listening to them. And here is where I have made a big mistake: If I want to learn a song, but the key is challenging for me, I just play it in a comfortable key. And on my keyboards I have my very much beloved transpose buttons! When I play accordion at a party no one notice that the song is played in a different key. No one comes up to me and says: "Shouldn't that waltz rather be played in f sharp?" They dance, talk and have a good time, and all is well. BUT now I have been asked to play in an accordion band!!!!! They all play by ear, so no problem there. The problem is all the keys I am not comfortable playing in!!! I fear I will have to decline, but have a big disire to at least try before I give up. So friends, all tips and advice is receiced with big thanks! My skill at playing the accordion in C, F and G is OK, but then we have those sharps and flats....
There will be no slepp for some nights!!

Hi Toril
Hope you are fit and well.
I am totally self taught from starting out with Kenneth Baker books.
Now that i am used to playing after 30 years of struggles, i have never played live as nerves would get me.
I tried it once and got through but i suffered a migrane after concentrating so hard.
Now at 70 studio is best for me. I can relax more and get on with the dream.
Getting that out of the way i hated to play some songs as they had loads of flats and sharps.
I also got fed up with not being able to do it. ::)
As you know C  key is easy, so you think .
So i set about playing songs with two three and four shaps and the same with flats,
then picked a difficult song and step by step go through it.
I also looked at the scale charts and started practicing them. You have to practice scales as it makes life much easier . You will find out it is not so hard.
After about a year i was there and was delighted to play in any key. Reading music is also the key and the more you do it the easier it becomes.
There is a lot of things in sheet music that is not right ,or like the real thing and it is still best to put your stamp on a song.
I found out that sometimes things are easier still in another key and better patterns for your playing hands.
By forcing yoursefl to practice different key scales, you then realize ad-libbing becomes easier in songs also. Freedom to express.
I am not professor at this thing but i have bungled through  jungle all these years. ;D


 All the best
John :)                           I also see that there have been a few spectacular aurora borealis happenings lately. :)
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: Toril S on January 10, 2022, 04:09:00 PM
Thank you so much for the good advice John😀😀
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: mikf on January 10, 2022, 04:39:04 PM
Toril has sight limitations so I think generally does not play from music, but by ear.
Its never a bad thing to practice scales and arpeggios in different keys, but take it from me, the fastest way to learn a new song in a different key, for someone playing by ear,  who can already play quite well, is just to play the song over and over in the designated key. Your initial aim is simply to be able to play those songs with your friends, and not some ideal scenario of being super confident of any song in any key, or sight reading in any key. And remember that playing live in an ensemble, the odd mistake is probably not very noticeable.
 I know you will soon get it because you can already play. And in the process of learning those specific songs you will become generally more and more comfortable in different keys with any song.
Mike 
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: andyg on January 10, 2022, 05:05:46 PM

(side note: a big difference between "nashville notation" using regular numerals for chords - 1, 4, 5 - and roman numeral notation - I, IV, V - is that the minors are assumed in nashville notation.  So your roman numeral chords I IIm IIIm IV V VIm would be just 1 2 3 4 5 6 in nashville notation.)


I was always taught that II, III and VI are major chords. ii, iii and vi would be minor. Maybe IIm just isn't a British 'thing'! :)
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: quasar on January 10, 2022, 05:19:27 PM
Hi Toril, you have a lot having a good ear to get the songs, the problem becomes when you have a tricky key with several black keys.


Greg pointed out something very essential: Taking scale degrees in spite of notes and he also mentioned the quality of each

degree. These 2 items are keys for your musical journey.

To start with there´s a formula to get the scales
 
C    D    E    F    G    A    B    C

1    2    3    4    5    6    7     8

There are whole steps and half steps, in the major scale

Between the 3rd and 4th degree and 7th and 8th there are half steps

The rest of the scale has only whole tones

This formula applies to all the scales it´s pure math!

I´m sending you a link that explains this topic deeply, good luck in your musical learning curve

Regards
Carlos

https://www.simplifyingtheory.com/music-scales/
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: Toril S on January 10, 2022, 05:39:50 PM
Thanks a lot Carlos!😀
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: overover on January 10, 2022, 06:12:23 PM
... To start with there´s a formula to get the scales
 
C    D    E    F    G    A    B    C

1    2    3    4    5    6    7     8

There are whole steps and half steps, in the major scale

Between the 3rd and 4th degree there are half steps

The rest of the scale has only whole tones

This formula applies to all the scales it´s pure math! ...

Regards
Carlos


Note that a major scale (e.g. C - C) has TWO half tone steps (3-4 and 7-8):

C - D - E-F - G - A - B-C
1 - 2 - 3-4 - 5 - 6 - 7-8


Best regards,
Chris
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: mikf on January 10, 2022, 06:26:24 PM
This kind of analysis is interesting by way of explaining how these things work, but not that useful for really playing. Playing well is about training the subconscious control of motor skills by repetition. And that releases the conscious mind to think about the more subtle aspects of the music-  how it should sound, interpretation, phrasing, touch, etc. There isn't time to think about the analysis of the basics while playing.
And don't be misled by the lovely Toril's understating of her skills and musical ability. She has been playing a long time and is a very competent player already so I am sure she knows already how scales are constructed.  ;D ;D ;D
Mike 
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: janamdo on January 10, 2022, 07:03:51 PM
Hi Carlos ,
I memorize the major scale as : 2 1/2 3 1/2 (PLAY THIS ON KEYBOARD)  (twohalfthreehalf) : two whole step, half step three whole step, half step
Once knowing the major scale playing tunes, then going to tunes with one #(sharp) sign and one b (flat) sign.
one #(sharp) =  from a white key up to the black key in a half step conversely.. one b (flat) sign:  from a white key down to a black key  in a half step
The circle of fifths is showing this too

So you can see in what key you play and which signs (# (sharp)or b(flat) ) are used there
The key with one #(sharp) is? ... try to figure this out and play this scale ( hint: it is the major scale , but one note has to be raised one half step)
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: Toril S on January 10, 2022, 08:00:26 PM
Thanks, my good friends😀
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: quasar on January 10, 2022, 08:55:29 PM
Hello Chris, thanks for the correction

It was an involuntary omission

I'm going  to make the correction

Regards
Carlos
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: quasar on January 10, 2022, 09:05:52 PM
Hi Janamdo, there are several ways to memorize the formula, but there another ones to memorize the minor scales and scales for improvisation, etc, there's a lot of job, but we have to take it carefully, step by step, without getting hurried...

I think the best way is the other formula:

Practice, practice and practice, the only way

Regards
Carlos
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: Toril S on January 10, 2022, 09:08:18 PM
I realize my mistake in not learning all keys from the start. To play in a key you are not familiar with is a little like sitting down to write on a typewriter. You know the touch system, so you think all is OK. But someone has put the keys on the typewriter a little to the side, a little up or down from where you remembered them to be. Your muscle memory is no good, you hit the wrong key all the time. But eventually you get the hang of it! Lazyness on my part, now I pay the price. All my fault, I wanted to have an easy life...
I learned a waltz in G minor today, so I am on the job :)
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: mikf on January 10, 2022, 10:36:29 PM

I memorize the major scale as : 2 1/2 3 1/2 (PLAY THIS ON KEYBOARD)  (twohalfthreehalf) : two whole step, half step three whole step, half step
Once knowing the major scale playing tunes, then going to tunes with one #(sharp) sign and one b (flat) sign.
one #(sharp) =  from a white key up to the black key in a half step conversely.. one b (flat) sign:  from a white key down to a black key  in a half step
The circle of fifths is showing this too

So you can see in what key you play and which signs (# (sharp)or b(flat) ) are used there
The key with one #(sharp) is? ... try to figure this out and play this scale ( hint: it is the major scale , but one note has to be raised one half step)

No-one should learn to play this way, - by analysis. Players don't think this way. Use your ears to hear the correct notes of a scale, its obvious - then repeat this scale until embedded in your brain. And just know the key signatures, don't work them out - one sharp is G, 2 is D,  3 is A , 4 is E. One flat is F, 2 is Bb, 3 is Eb, 4 is Ab. Yes its mathematically true that these run in opposite directions round the circle of 5ths, but best to just know it, not work it out. It's not a lot to know. Otherwise paralysis by analysis!
Mike
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: GregB on January 11, 2022, 03:28:09 AM
I was always taught that II, III and VI are major chords. ii, iii and vi would be minor. Maybe IIm just isn't a British 'thing'! :)

Yeah, I believe it can be written either way. :)  The main thing is that the Nashville system numerals have implied minors, whereas the Classical roman numeral approach indicates major/minor explicitly.

These types of differences do make for some fun, though, when collaborating with others.  I was in a co-writing session a couple months ago where another guy asked me to "add a seven" to a V chord.  I told him I didn't think a dominant seventh chord would sound very good at that spot, and he looked confused.  After some odd back and forth, it turned out he intended to ask me to play a 5/7 (nashville numbering) rather than a V⁷.  In other words, bass note on the middle of the triad rather than the root of the triad.

- Greg
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: GregB on January 11, 2022, 03:32:50 AM
No-one should learn to play this way, - by analysis. Players don't think this way. Use your ears to hear the correct notes of a scale, its obvious - then repeat this scale until embedded in your brain. And just know the key signatures, don't work them out - one sharp is G, 2 is D,  3 is A , 4 is E. One flat is F, 2 is Bb, 3 is Eb, 4 is Ab. Yes its mathematically true that these run in opposite directions round the circle of 5ths, but best to just know it, not work it out. It's not a lot to know. Otherwise paralysis by analysis!
Mike

I tend to agree, but I think everyone's mind works just a little differently.  I still occasionally use the pattern janamdo mentioned on-the-fly, but it's always better when it's just muscle memory with my eyes not stuck looking at the keyboard. :)

- Greg
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: Divemaster on January 11, 2022, 11:16:25 AM
Perfectly normal progression.

Remember the first time you played a piece?
It was probably in the key of C and had no flats or sharps.

Then somebody comes up and says can you play this for me.......
and it has 4 flats  or 5 sharps.

It's all about practice. Never run away from a challenge. Master each and every part of how YOU want to polay, and you'll be amazed what you can do.

So my message to you is this.  OF COURSE YOU CAN DO IT.
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: Toril S on January 11, 2022, 11:40:33 AM
Thanks Divemaster!😀
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: Aquilauno on January 11, 2022, 04:42:05 PM
Hi
have the same problem Toril, playing by ear I realized that I use the key in (A) a lot. It's strange because it would be natural to think of using the key in C (easier since not has alterations). Instead I find the (A) more natural because I have black keys that I use as reference points and it works well for me (both for chords and melody) ... Only that I realized that every song I tend to always use the same chords (A, F#m, E , D ... etc ..) this is limiting to progress and improve. Same problem was with the guitar, the tendency was to avoid the barrè. With the guitar I solved by playing as much as possible with the original key of the songs. This allowed me to know and learn new chords (forcing me to use the barrè). The incredible thing is that, little by little, every time I picked up the guitar I had less and less difficulty in performing the barrè, as if, in addition to constant practice, the brain continued to work on it even after putting the guitar away. Of course I speak as a self-taught, currently with the guitar I hate only the Eb (and Eb-) and choosing simplified chords for the unusual ones, almost all the songs that interest me now I can make it in the original key are few those that I transpose in a different key. I am doing the same with the keyboard. Practice, practice and practice, I started with the major, minor and 7th chords. ) ... now I'm starting to tackle diesis and bemolle chords. I am practicing on Moonligth Serenade and in the original key of F this "forces" me to use some aug and dim chords too, Thanks to the SX900 "chord tutorial" I have everything at hand with a button assigned to it. On the net I found a little program for windows called "All that's chord", simple and fantastic. Obviously better to use a tablet and for Android there is the excellent "Keychord Lite" (free version) or "My Piano Assistant". These programs make it very easy to analyze and play a large number of chords and I suggest you try them they have great and clean graphics on a 10.5 inch tableti they are clearly visible much more than the microscopic "chord tutorial" of the SX900.
Furthermore, as in the guitar, I noticed that the chords are not so dissimilar to each other (the structure repeats itself some vary slightly from the major ones (for example the G, lowering the three notes by a semitone becomes an F sharp (or G flat) then instead of three white keys G, B, D, you use three black keys F#, A#, C# (or Gb Bb Db) It's easy to memorize right? But there are many possibilities (I consider it a quiz like "find the differences" lol). My difficulty is that I have the little free time, but also that I have to learn to use styles, timing for variations and more. However, the method of playing one piece at a time in the original key allows me to choose and deal with 3 or 4 unusual chords, to learn them and, therefore, to improve ( this at 57 years old ...) sure ... everything would be easier with 20 years younger and a few more degrees of eyes ... LOL.

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Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: Toril S on January 11, 2022, 05:48:20 PM
Thanks a lot Aquilauno😀
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: janamdo on January 11, 2022, 07:11:56 PM
No-one should learn to play this way, - by analysis. Players don't think this way. Use your ears to hear the correct notes of a scale, its obvious - then repeat this scale until embedded in your brain. And just know the key signatures, don't work them out - one sharp is G, 2 is D,  3 is A , 4 is E. One flat is F, 2 is Bb, 3 is Eb, 4 is Ab. Yes its mathematically true that these run in opposite directions round the circle of 5ths, but best to just know it, not work it out. It's not a lot to know. Otherwise paralysis by analysis!
Mike

If you play all white keys for a octave , then there is no need to think on a formula
Exercising the other scales for different keys is by playing and read from paper ( not by using the formula )
Indeed i agree , must be practiced on keyboard over and over again
 
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: ugawoga on January 11, 2022, 07:20:34 PM
Hi Toril
All these circle of 5ths and this and that can be confusing at times .
I just get a scale chart and go for it.
After getting used to a scale then the music in front of you becomes easier.
Just take your time and slowly learn a song that way.
It is totally surprising what you can do once you get used to that scale.
Also you may even find it easier in a key other than C.
You may get a song in C that your little finger cannot reach, but in a different key you have more diagonals and it can be easier.
All depends how much free time you have really
I am talking from an idiots point of view!!! :-X ;D
Also Toril play what you feel and then music sounds more interesting than following notes to the print sometimes!! :)
It is still all fun.


All the best
john :)



All the Best
John
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: Toril S on January 11, 2022, 08:18:13 PM
Thanks John. I just play by ear😀
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: Paula on January 11, 2022, 08:40:30 PM
Hi Toril
 why not transpose the key board to the key they want to play in  that should work
     Paula :) :)
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: mikf on January 11, 2022, 08:49:12 PM
If you look at the original post, Toril has started to play in an accordion band. No transpose possible.
The fact is, although Toril may have asked the question, I think she really already knew the answer, --practice the list of songs they play in their keys until its comfortable.
She was hoping someone might have a short cut, but that doesnt exist on an accordion.
Toril already plays better than many on here, she can handle it.
Mike
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: Paula on January 11, 2022, 09:02:36 PM
If you look at the original post, Toril has started to play in an accordion band. No transpose possible.
The fact is, although Toril may have asked the question, I think she really already knew the answer, --practice the list of songs they play in their keys until its comfortable.
She was hoping someone might have a short cut, but that doesnt exist on an accordion.
Toril already plays better than many on here, she can handle it.
Mike
sorry I didnt read the original post ....  Troil playes very well in my opinion and so do many on this forum as well... :(I dont believe that it was necessary to add that she plays better then many on this forum  people play at different levels I have listened to many posts on this forum and find many play very well
      Paula
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: Toril S on January 11, 2022, 09:28:33 PM
Thank you all for your good advice and encouragement! I am happy to have such wonderful friends!! And Mke is right, I was kind of hoping for a shortcut, but at the bottom of my heart I know there is none😀 Unless I buy an electric accordeon, but that is not allowed in this band. I just had my old accordion serviced, and some black keys were responding badly. Guess why😀Ha ha, I say no more….😀
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: Paula on January 11, 2022, 10:01:28 PM
Thank you all for your good advice and encouragement! I am happy to have such wonderful friends!! And Mke is right, I was kind of hoping for a shortcut, but at the bottom of my heart I know there is none😀 Unless I buy an electric accordeon, but that is not allowed in this band. I just had my old accordion serviced, and some black keys were responding badly. Guess why😀Ha ha, I say no more….😀
Hi Toril
 I hear ya no easy fix.... I also dont read music and when I had bought a Lowery Organ way back....I was playing for a benefit  my younger sister played drums a fella came up who sang and played rhythm guitar he asked if he could set in with us ,  no pay was involved different people were here playing for this benefit in our small town.... the fella who set in with us had just bought a bar he asked if we could get together and play .... well I did learn to play in some different keys and it was country music I did some polkas  and we played at that bar every weekend for five years we packed the house people danced and many nights it was so packed you could hardly move we had fun also and got paid as well, and that old fella visits me a couple times a month  yet and this old lady and that old fella  still remain friends ...I am no big time accomplished key board player although it has been many years of playing and bringing others joy as well..... Happy New Year ...sorry I dont  get here to post often but I do keep up with many music posts
   Paula :)
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: Toril S on January 11, 2022, 10:21:50 PM
Yes, Paula, music is FUN, we wouldn't do it if it was boring :) Hope you will post some music again soon, miss you. I have never played witn others before, so very nervous as to how it will be, but I say to myself that no one is going to shoot me, so I will at least try. Me and my green, old accordion from the wonderful sixties, both of us!
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: Paula on January 11, 2022, 10:35:11 PM
Yes, Paula, music is FUN, we wouldn't do it if it was boring :) Hope you will post some music again soon, miss you. I have never played witn others before, so very nervous as to how it will be, but I say to myself that no one is going to shoot me, so I will at least try. Me and my green, old accordion from the wonderful sixties, both of us!
I  think you will do good Toril, depending on what type of music they play In my experience most guitar players like  G D A C ...depending on what instruments are played what you can do if your not required to play all lead you can back off and play the cords so learn the cord runs first , if you get lost on a song back out and let the rest of the group take over .... you can do it I know you can
  I like to have fun with an audience usually at the end of my gig I say .... thankyou I had a great time and thanks for not throwing rotten tomatoes at me , that usually gets a rise out of them , guess what if you screw up blame it on some one else just look innocent (HAHA) have fun dear Toril,
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: Toril S on January 11, 2022, 10:39:15 PM
Thanks Paula :)
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: janamdo on January 11, 2022, 10:41:14 PM
Hi Toril
 I hear ya no easy fix.... I also dont read music and when I had bought a Lowery Organ way back....I was playing for a benefit  my younger sister played drums a fella came up who sang and played rhythm guitar he asked if he could set in with us ,  no pay was involved different people were here playing for this benefit in our small town.... the fella who set in with us had just bought a bar he asked if we could get together and play .... well I did learn to play in some different keys and it was country music I did some polkas  and we played at that bar every weekend for five years we packed the house people danced and many nights it was so packed you could hardly move we had fun also and got paid as well, and that old fella visits me a couple times a month  yet and this old lady and that old fella  still remain friends ...I am no big time accomplished key board player although it has been many years of playing and bringing others joy as well..... Happy New Year ...sorry I dont  get here to post often but I do keep up with many music posts
   Paula :)
Well, to  get solve this problems.. learn to read music ..its not that hard  ..so come on and go to learn to read music
For a arranger keyboard easier than for a piano i think.
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: Paula on January 11, 2022, 10:42:42 PM
Thanks Paula :)
I edited my previous post did you see it ?
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: Toril S on January 11, 2022, 10:46:24 PM
Good point, Janamdo! But too challenging when you have very little eyesight, so I read a little, but can not read from a sheet when playing. Usually I do fine with my ears :)
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: Paula on January 11, 2022, 10:46:43 PM
Well, to  get solve this problems.. learn to read music ..its not that hard  ..so come on and go to learn to read music
For a arranger keyboard easier than for a piano i think.

 Hi
Toril cannot see well enough to read music
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: janamdo on January 12, 2022, 10:25:18 AM
Good point, Janamdo! But too challenging when you have very little eyesight, so I read a little, but can not read from a sheet when playing. Usually I do fine with my ears :)
Perhaps using a computer widescreen monitor behind the keyboard placing and then zooming bigger letters for the pdf songs
Can that help ?

Recently a while ago i bought a gaming monitor from AOC, it has 144Hz refreshingrate and is  a 27 " inch screen (if i am  correct) and this screen is much higher then a widescreen and not as wide as a widescreen
Seems to me very suitable for music reading

But all depends if your eyesight is strong enough?   
 
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: Toril S on January 12, 2022, 10:29:29 AM
Tried it. Still no good. But my ears work fine😀😀
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: mikf on January 12, 2022, 03:36:30 PM
Well, to  get solve this problems.. learn to read music ..its not that hard  ..so come on and go to learn to read music
For a arranger keyboard easier than for a piano i think.
Well apart from Toril’s sight impairment, and the fact that it’s not an arranger but an accordion she is playing, it is no trivial task to learn to proficiently sight read full sheet music in every key. And in any case the group she is playing with don’t have music, they all play by ear. And if she did find music for some of the songs they play, and could sight read proficiently it probably would not help since it almost certainly would not be in the key they play. ☺️😂
Mike
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: Denn on January 14, 2022, 01:37:21 AM
Hello Toril, I love your playing. The easy answer to your question is to obtain a 5 row chromatic accordion as I have. No matter what button you start on the fingering is the same. So playing in "odd" keys is no problem - or is it? Sometimes I start playing in the key of A which is the third button down on the outside row. Then, as I go, sometimes I get to hit the C button which is the 4th button down. As the C is also in the A key I just continue in C.
This is me and my accordions
https://youtu.be/zmr_o-Fu9_4
Kind regards, Denn
 
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: travlin-easy on January 14, 2022, 02:27:16 AM
Toril,

The best advice I can provide is to play the chords that are comfortable for you and just have fun playing. I am going blind from Macular Degeneration and there is no cure. I, too,cannot read music, at least not enough to hamper my playing. I have played with many groups or pro musicians, guys and gals that were educated in the best music colleges, and just transpose to the chord they are playing in. Everything works, both for me and them - and they really don't give a damned as long as it sounds good and timing is correct.

Have fun, and don't worry about the petty stuff - it just makes  you older, but not wiser,

Gary
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: mikf on January 14, 2022, 03:07:16 AM
It’s an accordion Gary, there is no transpose button. She has to learn to play in their key, no shortcut. I have every confidence she can. It’s not all that hard when you have a good ear and many years of playing experience like Toril.
Mike
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: Toril S on January 14, 2022, 11:00:51 AM
Thanks friends😀
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: panos on January 14, 2022, 08:33:49 PM
Hi Toril,
up and down the scale with your right hand, the same way we have learned to play the C major chord and it's relative the A minor chord so the fingers get used to each scale.
(There is a need for a different finger position for each scale  and that is why over time the fingers will... find their way home by themselves)
Your ears will correct your fingers if they press a note out of the scale.
It will take some time, but your fingers will get used to it.

How many sharps or flats or black keys any scale or mode has, I don't remember either :)

The only thing that I try to remember is that 3 semitones(keys) to the left is the relative minor of a major key and when I also forget even this, I just go down from C4 to A3 to count the semitones(keys) to find it. (Easy to remember the two scales that you don't have necessarily to use any black keys when you improvise in Western music (C Key and Am key).
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: janamdo on January 14, 2022, 08:59:30 PM
it is no trivial task to learn to proficiently sight read full sheet music in every key.
Mike
That is for the real pianist to play in all keys, but for the hobby keyboardplayer not needed
Or you must like to play piano songs too ( i like, but its too difficult for me at the moment  :()
Yes, the G major key and F major key are the easiest scales ones to use.
I do have some starters studymaterial for keyboard and it goes not further than one  sharp and one flat, that's it
I do have some more advanced keyboard lessonsmaterial and it revolves around these two F and G keys to play from in one series of lessons.
I don't see more keys in my advanced keyboard lessons
Playing in minor the A minor and D minor is also present there
Aminor has no flat or sharps and Dminor  has one sign.
So its all easy  :)
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: mikf on January 14, 2022, 10:48:08 PM
Jan
Relative beginners learning to read simple stuff in easy keys from lead sheets in private might is not too difficult. But when you are playing a wide range of music on piano or accordion in public, there are no crutches, nowhere to hide, no room for stumbling through, and the music would not be a simple arranger lead sheet. So sight reading at that level needs real proficiency gained over many years. It’s neither easy or common, even among some quite competent players.
Mike

Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: janamdo on January 14, 2022, 11:02:38 PM
Jan
Relative beginners learning to read simple stuff in easy keys from lead sheets in private might is not too difficult. But when you are playing a wide range of music on piano or accordion in public, there are no crutches, nowhere to hide, no room for stumbling through, and the music would not be a simple arranger lead sheet. So sight reading at that level needs real proficiency gained over many years. It’s neither easy or common, even among some quite competent players.
Mike
Mike
That's a professional musician
To improve your playing is practising , like all pro players do and if you are talented it makes it easier.
Of course to be a professional musican is not for every one to be achieve that
Not me.. i  will be a hobby player for always.


Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: ugawoga on January 17, 2022, 02:04:46 PM
Hi
Do you not agree that some songs are better played in a different key. I mean easier.
Take Vangelis Chariots of fire, easier on the black notes, with a couple of whites!!!  :)
Just a different point of view. It just takes a little extra concentration  and you can do it.
It is like learning different moves on a chess board really


All the best John
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: mikf on January 17, 2022, 03:51:59 PM
That can be true, but when playing with others there is often no choice, you have to play in whatever key they play or sing in. If you know in advance you can practice, but sometimes it’s just thrown at you in real time. The arranger players on this forum usually play alone and can prepare everything they do in advance for a public performance.  But it’s not like that for most musicians playing traditional instruments. When I sat in local bands we never rehearsed, sometimes you had not even met the others in the band till you get to the venue. If you were lucky they had a vocalist who was halfway organized with a set list and the keys. Real luxury would be a set of lead sheets. Otherwise they just shouted the name of the tune, key and we go! All the people I played with in bands could handle this effortlessly.
Used to play in pubs in my young days and you don’t know the key till they start singing. Then you have about half a bar to find it and be with them. Sometimes the key seemed halfway between Ab and A. Try finding that!🙄
Mike
Title: Re: Play in all keys -is there a good way to learn this in a short time?
Post by: Toril S on January 17, 2022, 09:03:37 PM
Oh my! I am in for some trouble!! Went through my list of songs that I play on the accordion today. It is G, C, F and Am all over the place, I just olayed the comfortable keys. So wish me luck. Today I purchased a used Zero Sette b26 accordion! And have started the task of learning to play the songs in their right keys! And I have asked for a song list from the band so I can be prepared. Taking on too much? Yes, but what the heck. I can always play for my dog if they kick me out😀 I still take piano lessons and compose songs on my keyboards. And I have you wonderful forum friends. I am lucky😀