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Genos (10 Boards) => Genos - General => Topic started by: Lee Batchelor on October 03, 2021, 08:19:07 PM

Title: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 03, 2021, 08:19:07 PM
Hi team,

I recently joined an R&B band and am working on the charts. I need solid B3 sounds for a lot of the tunes. Sadly, the Genos B3s are limited. For example, Iím able to apply a different rate of acceleration to any of the organ flute presets but when I use one of the S.Art organs, the Leslie effect is either on or off. There's no way to play with the ramp up or down speeds. Otherwise, theyíre great voices. Iím currently using WhiteBars JS but canít change the ramp up or down speed of the Leslie. Real B3 players have this ability. Am I missing something here? Thanks.

Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 04, 2021, 12:38:30 AM
Francesco, you're a life saver! I'll take a look. It's pathetic that to get an "improved voice," you have to access something Yamaha designed for a much older keyboard released years ago. They did it right back then. Why did they screw it up? It's great that they provide the legacy voices but isn't that counter intuitive?

Anyway, thanks again!
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Rich Z on October 04, 2021, 01:17:05 AM
When I first got my Genos a week or so ago, when I wanted to try out the organ sounds, I was particularly interested in trying the White Shade of Pale version (I can't remember exactly what it is named at the moment).  When I tried the leslie effect, well YUCH!  My hands actually recoiled away from the keyboard. Sounded more like tremolo than any sort of leslie tone cabinet effect I have ever heard.  Several other organ selections sound the same lame way, even though there are others that implement the leslie cabinet effect pretty well. Other organ sounds post a funky message across the screen saying that effect isn't available.  Wonder who ever thought THAT was a good idea?  How did these snafus get by Yamaha's quality control dept? Those sounds are just broken, in my opinion, and need to be fixed in an update.  No one who has ever played a Hammond B3 would ever seriously want to use them, as is, imho.  Quite honestly, the thought did cross my mind that if there were a lot of screwups in the other sounds like these organ sounds, I would seriously have considered just boxing up the Genos and sending it back.

Or am I just missing a real easy fix to them while keeping them in situ in the sounds selection list?
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 04, 2021, 02:50:14 AM
When I first got my Genos a week or so ago, when I wanted to try out the organ sounds, I was particularly interested in trying the White Shade of Pale version (I can't remember exactly what it is named at the moment).  When I tried the leslie effect, well YUCH!  My hands actually recoiled away from the keyboard. Sounded more like tremolo than any sort of leslie tone cabinet effect I have ever heard.  Several other organ selections sound the same lame way, even though there are others that implement the leslie cabinet effect pretty well. Other organ sounds post a funky message across the screen saying that effect isn't available.  Wonder who ever thought THAT was a good idea?  How did these snafus get by Yamaha's quality control dept? Those sounds are just broken, in my opinion, and need to be fixed in an update.  No one who has ever played a Hammond B3 would ever seriously want to use them, as is, imho.  Quite honestly, the thought did cross my mind that if there were a lot of screwups in the other sounds like these organ sounds, I would seriously have considered just boxing up the Genos and sending it back.

Or am I just missing a real easy fix to them while keeping them in situ in the sounds selection list?
You're right on the money, Rich. The organ voice to which you refer for the song, A Whiter Shade Of Pale is appropriately named WhiteBars JS. I assume the JS refers to the famous organist Jimmy Smith. It is in the  so-called new and improved S.Art group. Somebody at Yamaha completely dropped the ball in thinking that a Leslie speaker can instantly ramp up from slow to fast speed!! It's physically, impossible to force a speaker driver to spin up that fast.

The only thing that makes sense is if the voice was meant to have a tremolo or vibrato effect, which has been around for decades. However, applying that effect on a very famous organ sound for such an iconic tune and organist is just insane.

Thank goodness the legacy voices exist. I agree that Yamaha needs to revamp their thinking on these organ voices.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: PierreSW on October 04, 2021, 09:07:52 AM
Hope Yamaha puts the YC61 in GENOS 2
Here is a demo
Yamaha YC61 or even better Viscount Legend
Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzsr2hrjmQE

When's Genos2 coming?

// Pierre
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: DerekA on October 04, 2021, 09:44:48 AM
JS stands for 'joystick' because the joystick (aka mod wheel on older models) is used to introduce the leslie effect.

On the Organ voices there are 2 different approaches - either a basic sample with a DSP (which *can* include the speed up / slow down effect) and those which use the modulation to switch the leslie on and off without speed up / slow down.

So it's not a case of dropping the ball here - the non-DSP version just cannot support speed up / slow down and so isn't really suitable for when you really need that. You have to use an organ voice with DSP to get that.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 04, 2021, 12:59:56 PM
Quote
So it's not a case of dropping the ball here - the non-DSP version just cannot support speed up / slow down and so isn't really suitable for when you really need that. You have to use an organ voice with DSP to get that.
Fully agreed but how a company as brilliant as Yamaha can blatantly declare that Leslie speakers are "instant on and instant off" is beyond me. That's just plain nonsense, if not laziness on the part of the developers. That's dropping the ball.

If the voice has a Leslie effect, it needs to have variable ramp up and down speeds. I still don't see why Yamaha overlooked this VERY important feature when they got everything else so accurate. This is basic!
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: soryt on October 04, 2021, 01:03:11 PM
If you now how to use ( and play) the Drawbars and the rotary simulation of the Genos you can after editing a very decent  B3 sound.
For a better Rotary effect you can also purchase a Ventilator 2 simulator or a Lester  unit to keep you equipment small .
I am surproised to hear this question from a experienced keyboard player after so long working with Genos .

Soryt
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: terryB on October 04, 2021, 02:43:05 PM
Hi Lee, did you see the topic 'Excellent Rotary effect found' in 'Genos Voices & Revo Drums' started by MadrasGiaguari, last post Sept12- 2021, which would seem related to your post  :)

Cheers Terry
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 04, 2021, 03:07:06 PM
Hi Terry,

No I didn't see that. When you have a moment, would you post the link? Many thanks!
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: terryB on October 04, 2021, 04:30:54 PM
https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,57440.0.html

Hope this works   ::)

Cheers
Terry

Yes checked it it does work  ;)
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: mikf on October 04, 2021, 04:55:33 PM
I am surproised to hear this question from a experienced keyboard player after so long working with Genos .
Seems an unnecessary added comment
Mike
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 04, 2021, 05:43:09 PM
Thanks, Terry B. I'll check it out.

Meanwhile...
Quote
I am surprised to hear this question from a experienced keyboard player after so long working with Genos.
I'm not surprised because after all these years of using arrangers from the PSR 630 all the way to the Genos, I haven't needed stellar B3 samples that often. During those times, I also owned a few Yamaha Motif synths and Nord keyboards, which fit my needs at the time. The Genos is lacking in comparison - no big surprise though. The Genos is my only remaining keyboard at this time.

So many of the songs I need to learn for this new R&B group have nice B3 voices in them. I have considered the Ventilator 2 Simulator or a Lester G. Those are useful suggestions. Thanks :).
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: pjd on October 04, 2021, 07:17:55 PM
Fully agreed but how a company as brilliant as Yamaha can blatantly declare that Leslie speakers are "instant on and instant off" is beyond me. That's just plain nonsense, if not laziness on the part of the developers. That's dropping the ball.

If the voice has a Leslie effect, it needs to have variable ramp up and down speeds. I still don't see why Yamaha overlooked this VERY important feature when they got everything else so accurate. This is basic!

Hi Lee --

Yamaha's fixation with backward compatibility is a double-edged sword. We see a mix of approaches where some of the legacy voices are based on old technology (old samples, old DSP algorithms, etc.)

Back to the issue, I play a lot of B3 for R&B, gospel, etc. I stay away from the "JS" (joystick) voices and avoid voices where the Leslie effect is part of the sample itself. I use Organ Flutes (da drawbars) almost exclusively.

As to "Whiter Bars" specifically, I have an Organ Flutes registration for that based on Hammond settings posted on the Web. I've also customized the Rotary Speaker parameters.

The ole S950 had Organ Flute voices equivalent to certain regular voices. Whiter Bars had an Organ Flutes equivalent ("ShadyBars"), but some of those Organ Flute equivalents were dropped in Genos! When I heard how close the S.Art voice was to the Organ Flute equivalent, I started using Organ Flutes everywhere and never went back.

Hope this helps -- pj
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: pjd on October 04, 2021, 07:23:27 PM
I found a table of Organ Flutes preset parameters. It might help folks recreate these old preset voices on Genos.

Have fun -- pj


**********************************************
Organ Flutes preset data (example settings)
**********************************************

Yamaha presets: Vibrato is OFF in all cases

Preset          Drawbars     VOL  RESP   4'  2 2/3'   2'  LENG  Rotary effect
--------------  -----------  ---  ----  ---  ------  ---  ----  -------------
OrganFlutes     78 6600 000   8     0    8      0     0     6   DUAL ROT BRT
USDSmile        87 4323 468   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
ReggaeBars      70 0000 008   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
WarmTheatre     80 0605 000   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT WRM
OrganPops       70 8000 000   8     0    8      0     0     8   DUAL ROT BRT
RockOrgan       65 5444 644   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
SoulPercussion  70 0000 530   8     0    0      7     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
GospelTruth     87 6000 568   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
PadOrgan        00 8520 000   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT WRM
FullOrgan       88 7677 788   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT

StringBars      48 0787 532   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
LatinSpin       70 0003 443   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
ShadyBars       68 8600 000   8     0    0      0     0     7   DUAL ROT BRT
FunkOrgan       83 5035 788   8     0    0      0     0     7   DUAL ROT BRT
BalladOrgan     86 7300 000   8     0    0      0     0     7   DUAL ROT WRM
RichBars        63 8457 530   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
TrumpetBars     06 0786 540   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
SoulBars        80 0050 578   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
ClariBars       08 0080 760   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
JazzSquabble    80 0008 888   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT

SmithPlus       88 8800 000   8     3    0      4     0     0   DUAL ROT WRM
Simmerin        83 0000 378   8     0    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT WRM
MellowDee       80 4600 000   8     4    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT BRT
Shoutin         66 8848 588   8     4    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT WRM
WhistleStop     88 8000 008   8     3    0      0     0     0   DUAL ROT WRM
WhiterShade     68 8600 000   8     0    4      0     0     8   DUAL ROT WRM


The last six are useful settings that I copped from Keyboard Magazine. I have similar presets on MODX.


Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 04, 2021, 08:11:02 PM
Wow, thanks PJD!! Silly me, I thought the JS stood for Jimmy Smith, the famous organist. Glad you straightened that out for me :).

It never occurred to me that I could build my own organ voices from scratch. That's probably the habit we Genos players get into, thanks to the amazing grab bag of voices at our disposal. After I build a custom voice, I assume I can apply the rotary effects and drive to my heart's content.

I'll download that chart you so generously posted. Thanks again ;D!!
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: ugawoga on October 04, 2021, 08:14:00 PM
Hope Yamaha puts the YC61 in GENOS 2
Here is a demo
Yamaha YC61 or even better Viscount Legend
Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzsr2hrjmQE

When's Genos2 coming?

// Pierre


Reminds me of a uk 60s tv show , Michael Miles the front man to Take Your Pick  the same organ sound when box 13 was opened with a massive key and either as booby prize or a holiday abroad maybe in the box!! ;D  da, dddda da  daaaaaaaaaaah!! :P ::)
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 04, 2021, 08:33:38 PM
Dumb question, PJD. I'm not sure how to read the red values in the my sample chart. For example,

Preset             Drawbars    VOL  RESP   4'  2 2/3'   2'  LENG  Rotary effect
OrganFlutes     78 6600 000     8       0      8      0      0       6     DUAL ROT BRT

Preset - name (obvious)
Drawbars - the volume for each of the nine drawbars
Volume - 8?
RESP - 0?
4' - 8?
2 2/3'? - 0?
2' - 0?
LENG - 6?

Why is there a separate value listed after the 9 drawbars for: 4', 2 2/3', and 2'? What is LENG? Thanks.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: MadrasGiaguari on October 04, 2021, 10:47:32 PM
Dear friends,

I agree with disappointment for the "J-Voices", as they cannot be used to simulate a B3 with Leslie.

Nevertheless it is true that working on "plane" organ voices and Rotary effect we may get something acceptable within the musical atmosphere given by the accompaniment.

In this sense, I like to share with you a short YouTube video I made with Clavinova CVP309, playing my own song named "Friendship". As you will see I had in mind  B3 and Leslie. Of course I could do the same (and better) on my Genos.
Sometimes an example can say much more than words... (in any case, the expression pedal helps a lot!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gao2YdjHjUM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gao2YdjHjUM)

Thank you, :)

Angelo
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: andyg on October 04, 2021, 10:52:44 PM
Vol = volume of the percussion pitches
Resp = effectively slow attack = not what you need on a Hammond
4' - percussion drawbar, set to 8 in this case
2 2/3' - percussion drawbar, set to 0
2'  - you can guess this! :)
Leng - percussion decay length - 0 = fast, 8 = slow, so 6 is in between.

Genos allows you to use is sliders effectively as live drawbars, albeit a bit too far apart from one another. As for the rotary DSP effect, I'd give the 'Real Rotor' type a miss and go for the Dual Rotor Bright and Dual Rotor Warm. If you set the parameters properly you can get a fair emulation of a twin rotor leslie like a 122 or 147.

As always, some experience of using a real Hammond and Leslie comes in handy.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: pjd on October 05, 2021, 12:31:50 AM
I'm not sure how to read the red values in the my sample chart. For example,


Preset             Drawbars     VOL    RESP   4'  2 2/3'      2'     LENG  Rotary effect
OrganFlutes     78 6600 000     8       0      8      0      0       6     DUAL ROT BRT


Hi Lee --

Thanks to Andy for already answering. They correspond to the organ parameters shown and described in the Genos Reference Manual, pages 52 to 53, about editing an Organ Flutes voice.

The 4' percussion setting is "second harmonic percussion" in B3-speak and the 2-2/3' percussion setting is "third harmonic percussion". For some reason, Yamaha decided to add a 2' percussion setting, too.

Here's a link to one of my posts on the subject: http://sandsoftwaresound.net/genospsr-organ-registrations/

Hope all this helps -- pj
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Duffy on October 05, 2021, 09:36:48 AM
Dear friends,

I agree with disappointment for the "J-Voices", as they cannot be used to simulate a B3 with Leslie.

Nevertheless it is true that working on "plane" organ voices and Rotary effect we may get something acceptable within the musical atmosphere given by the accompaniment.

In this sense, I like to share with you a short YouTube video I made with Clavinova CVP309, playing my own song named "Friendship". As you will see I had in mind  B3 and Leslie. Of course I could do the same (and better) on my Genos.
Sometimes an example can say much more than words... (in any case, the expression pedal helps a lot!)

That sounded absolutely amazing Angelo. You are obviously a very accomplished organist so I cannot even dream of sounding like that but,
it will encourage me and many others to make more effort to achieve a more realistic Organ sound such as yours.
I still agree with many other posters that Yamaha should have done this work for us and included such a preset in the Genos.
I have still not heard Yamaha's top demonstrators sounding as though they were playing a real organ as you have just done so very disappointing for Yamaha.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gao2YdjHjUM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gao2YdjHjUM)

Thank you, :)

Angelo
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: andyg on October 05, 2021, 09:52:06 AM
For some reason, Yamaha decided to add a 2' percussion setting, too.

2nd and 3rd harmonics were the only two percussions that Mr Hammond deemed necessary when the "3" series was introduced and it was only one at a time. Penny pinching? Probably! :)

Other makes with drawbars offered more, Wersi being a good example, so that 2' 4th harmonic is a sensible addition - I'd have liked to have seen some more. Some owners of T series Hammonds converted their voiced percussions into 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th harmonics - all mixable!
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 05, 2021, 12:53:40 PM
Dear friends,
I agree with disappointment for the "J-Voices", as they cannot be used to simulate a B3 with Leslie.
Nevertheless it is true that working on "plane" organ voices and Rotary effect we may get something acceptable within the musical atmosphere given by the accompaniment.
In this sense, I like to share with you a short YouTube video I made with Clavinova CVP309, playing my own song named "Friendship". As you will see I had in mind  B3 and Leslie. Of course I could do the same (and better) on my Genos.
Sometimes an example can say much more than words... (in any case, the expression pedal helps a lot!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gao2YdjHjUM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gao2YdjHjUM)
Thank you, :)
Angelo
Great playing and voice creation, Angelo! Many thanks for your time and efforts.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 05, 2021, 01:14:30 PM
PJD and Andy,

Thanks for the great explanations! If I understand your comments, the nine drawbar positions are the basic setups and the additional harmonic sliders are optional settings you can invoke as you play. Andy prefers the Dual Rotor Bright and Dual Rotor Warm to the Real Rotor DSP effect.

Iíll get going on some organ voice creations. As mentioned earlier, this is the first time in 30 years that I've needed stellar B3 voices. Of course, the ultimate move would be to invest in the Montage or a Nord, but the difference is not worth the money. Besides, this new band sometimes plays sets of four or five songs that segue. The Genos registration buttons are wonderful for that purpose. With them, I can have ten songs in one segued set - not to mention the Playlist function, which is almost limitless :).

Thanks again!
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: keynote on October 05, 2021, 05:00:42 PM
Hope Yamaha puts the YC61 in GENOS 2 or even better Viscount Legend.

When's Genos2 coming?

// Pierre

Hi Pierre. Genos II is in development although Yamaha might call it something else, we'll see. But as to the timeline of when it will be released to the public that's anybody's guess. Right now there is a serious worldwide 'chip' shortage that is affecting basically all prosumer electronic devices and also those required in vehicles, etc. So that's probably affecting Yamaha's ability to release the Genos II in the near term. Plus, the 2020 global pandemic has most likely also curtailed the design, implementation, and production of new Yamaha audio and keyboard products. Therefore, in my opinion, even though there are obstacles that may have hindered Yamaha's ability to get products to the assembly line and out the door, I think we'll probably see Yamaha's newest flagship arranger arrive sometime in 2023. That would be six years instead of the usual 3 to 4-year timeline. It will actually give Yamaha more time to implement potentially new and exciting features and functions into the Genos II including possibly a new Organ engine similar to the YC-61. Below is a video that shows some hidden features on the YC-61 that make it sound even more awesome. Genos owners looking for more oomph in the Leslie department might want to consider doing a two-tier setup with the YC-61 on top. Or wait a year or two for the Genos II to arrive. Your choice.  ;D

https://youtu.be/xioPCLMc4aQ?t=194

All the best,
Mike
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Rich Z on October 07, 2021, 09:20:24 PM
Been playing on the Genos off and on as I find time.  Honestly, I am having REAL trouble getting my head around the screwup with the Leslie effect.  I play some styles that use some of those sounds, and it makes me grind my teeth together when I try to use the Leslie effect.

Overall, I like the Genos, but I will be quite honest about it, had I known of this Leslie fumble I would have declined to buy the keyboard.  I could still send it back right now, but what a hassle that would be. But it is instructive that I have toyed with the thought.

Man, I am bummed out about this.  I cut my keyboard teeth on a Hammond B3 with dual Leslie cabinets (can't remember the model number, but if was the one that had the most oomph in the smallest package.  147 maybe?).

Sigh...
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: DerekA on October 07, 2021, 10:00:09 PM
I think you are being a bit dramatic, Rich.

The organ flutes voices, with the rotary DSP, provide exactly what you want and are designed for people who need a proper Leslie simulation.

The JS versions should be seen as simplified versions, with either fast or slow baked in.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Rich Z on October 07, 2021, 10:30:34 PM
Perhaps.  But I believe this is a pretty dramatic screw up by Yamaha. You are welcome to your opinion just as I believe I am welcome to mine.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: RONBO on October 07, 2021, 11:33:41 PM
Hello,

An update from Yamaha could probably fix this Leslie malfunction thing.

Regards

Ron
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Rich Z on October 08, 2021, 12:37:36 AM
Actually I just contacted Yamaha about this problem.  Not sure it will have any effect, though, as I guess this has been the case with the keyboard since the beginning, and apparently not enough people complained about it for them to consider addressing it. Honestly, I would be surprised if they would change it now, because they would likely think they would get just as many complaints from people who got used to it and played accordingly.

But I have to admit I would be a bit rankled if the Genos II comes out shortly and does fix this problem.

I have to listen to some of the review YouTubes to see if anyone mentioned this and I just overlooked it. Wouldn't be the first time I dozed off in the middle of a video viewing.

When I get a round tuit, I am going to crank up my Korg Kronos to check out the organ sounds on it to see if any of them have this same anomaly with the Leslie implementation.  I don't remember that being the case, but I can't say I tried even close to all of them. But just out of curiosity..... 
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: StuartR on October 08, 2021, 02:02:56 AM
Hello,

An update from Yamaha could probably fix this Leslie malfunction thing.

Regards

Ron
Funny you should mention that. As as owner of a YC61 which also has a poor Leslie emulation (believe it or not), fixing that emulation has been THE main subject of discussion in the Yamaha synth forum since the YC61 came out in the spring of 2020. Still nothing from Yamaha.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 08, 2021, 02:52:19 AM
As the originator of this subject, I appreciate everyone's input. Thank you.

I wonder if the Leslie and organ voice implementation has been put on the back burner by Yamaha in favor of the SA2 voices and Revo drums. I've heard from some that the Genos voices are even better than some of the Montage voices. Meanwhile, I would have to assume the Montage organs are stellar because Yamaha is up against Korg and Nord on the professional stage and studio. In so many ways, Yamaha treats the Genos like a living room machine, when in reality, it is VERY well suited for the professional stage.

I may have to look into buying a separate pedal like the Lester G. A while back, someone posted the correct procedure for its implementation with the Genos. At this point, it may be my only recourse. It would also be far cheaper than moving to a Genos II - whenever it arrives.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Duffy on October 08, 2021, 08:42:06 AM
I think you are being a bit dramatic, Rich.

The organ flutes voices, with the rotary DSP, provide exactly what you want and are designed for people who need a proper Leslie simulation.

The JS versions should be seen as simplified versions, with either fast or slow baked in.


I agree with Rich - Anyone who has spent much time playing Hammonds, or even other makes of organ which were hooked up to Leslie cabinets, knows that Yamaha's version of Leslie sound nothing like a real Leslie effect and the only guy who has managed to get near this sound on a Yamaha is Angelo who has written on this thread.
The quickest and easiest way to get near to the real Leslie sound is to use a Leslie simulator but this shouldn't be necessary bearing in mind the price of the Genos.
Try listening to a Hammond SKX portable organ which is not much more than half the price of a Genos and you will hear a Hammond through a Leslie speaker.

Take a listen to Omar Garcia playing a SKX and a Yamaha keyboard.
https://youtu.be/_aFdS0m-g6k
Such a brilliant setup so all we need is for Yamaha to make a module version of Genos (or even Tyros 5)
to cut down on space limitations and then we could all sound like that.
Not much chance of that happening but just as much chance that Yamaha will give us a real Leslie tremelo effect.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Rick D. on October 08, 2021, 12:02:27 PM
Duffy,

I forgot how a Leslie is supposed to sound. Omar made it sound amazing.

Thanks for sharing!

Rick D.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: DerekA on October 08, 2021, 01:58:10 PM
Can I just ask, have you actually tried using the Organ Flutes + DSP version of the voices - as opposed to the JS version? And tweaking the DSP settings?

Do they do a better job of speed up / slow down ?
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 08, 2021, 02:32:19 PM
Can I just ask, have you actually tried using the Organ Flutes + DSP version of the voices - as opposed to the JS version? And tweaking the DSP settings?
Do they do a better job of speed up / slow down ?
That's exactly what I do. I use the Organ Flutes as a basic start, modify the sliders, set the DSP to Rotary, press Details, set the Rotary parameters, and then save it as a User Voice. The JS organs are garbage, only because of their instant on, instant off Leslie. It still amazes me how Yamaha completely dropped the ball on those. The voices themselves aren't bad but they are useless because of the poor effects.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Bill on October 08, 2021, 05:01:25 PM
I agree that the basic effect (rotary) is not great, however lets remember that our Genos is an Arranger Keyboard NOT a full blown organ.

Organs of the likes of Hammond with an additional Leslie speaker are completely different beasts.

Our Genos has -:
1  a limited number of drawbars. Without the additional harmonics it is always going to sound a bit flat.
2  a Simple stereo digital amplifier not multiple valve amplifiers which produce a completely different sound.
3  quite simple digital sound chips not multiple Tone wheel generators.

I understand that you can improve the basic setup by adding in two separate DSP effects. However you are never going to replicate the very complex Doppler type of sound from a physical rotating speaker which cost roughly the same price as a new Genos.

https://www.bonnersmusic.co.uk/products/leslie-122xb-traditional-wood-40w-tube-amp

I personally don't think that even Yamaha can make any great improvements without doubling the price, so what is the point of stabbing Yamaha in the back.

Regards

Bill
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Duffy on October 08, 2021, 05:05:01 PM
I've tried every combination under the sun DerekA, but still cannot get a reasonable Leslie cabinet sound at all.
i spent years playing Organs of all different makes besides Hammonds, through Leslie's so I know what it should sound like.
As Lee said, it's not the voices which are bad, it's just the Rotary effect.
Such a shame for a good keyboard to be spoiled by a simple effect.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Rich Z on October 08, 2021, 05:40:44 PM
Heck, that reminds me.  My very first keyboard I used when I decided to play in a band was a Farfisa. Let's see, that had to be back in the late '60s.  Somehow I came up with a hare brained idea to pump that through a Leslie tone cabinet.  So I talked to the repair tech at the store I bought them from and he was willing to take a stab at it. He said that would be a whole lot more interesting than the repairs he usually does. I remember sitting with him pouring over the schematics and it all seemed pretty easy with someone to explain what all those squiggles meant.  I found it all quite interesting, and quite honestly, that was the spark that got me sticking my toes into electronics.  That lead to repairing computers and then programming them.

Then came the Hammond B3, and man what a step UP that was!  But what a beast to be moving to and from gigs.

I guess what really gripes me about this Leslie snafu is that the sound provide which implies using with the song Whiter Shade of Pale is just NOT up to snuff without that Leslie function working properly. It has always been the transitions from slow to fast, and fast to slow that MADE the Leslie effect music (literally) to my ears. Heck, it even made my old Farfisa sound decent.  I guess Yamaha just put the wrong people on the project for those organ sounds, as they blew it completely.

Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Duffy on October 08, 2021, 07:16:27 PM
I agree that the basic effect (rotary) is not great, however lets remember that our Genos is an Arranger Keyboard NOT a full blown organ.

Organs of the likes of Hammond with an additional Leslie speaker are completely different beasts.

Our Genos has -:
1  a limited number of drawbars. Without the additional harmonics it is always going to sound a bit flat.
2  a Simple stereo digital amplifier not multiple valve amplifiers which produce a completely different sound.
3  quite simple digital sound chips not multiple Tone wheel generators.

I understand that you can improve the basic setup by adding in two separate DSP effects. However you are never going to replicate the very complex Doppler type of sound from a physical rotating speaker which cost roughly the same price as a new Genos.

https://www.bonnersmusic.co.uk/products/leslie-122xb-traditional-wood-40w-tube-amp

I personally don't think that even Yamaha can make any great improvements without doubling the price, so what is the point of stabbing Yamaha in the back.

Regards

Bill

I am not comparing the Genos to a real organ and a real Leslie cabinet.
The sound I was talking about is from a digital keyboard with no physical rotating Leslie at all.
It is done digitally on a keyboard which costs little more than half the cost of a Genos.
You can also buy a Leslie simulator box that fits in your hand for less than £200 and it digitally produces a very realistic simulation of a Leslie cabinet.
there is a cheap but good, stage piano called Studiologic Numa 2x with a very good Hammond sound and realistic Leslie and the whole thing costs around £700
It's not cost therefore which prevents Yamaha from offering us a realistic sound. It means that they either don't know what a Leslie should sound like or they don't care.
Incidentally, Yamaha organs also sound absolutely brilliant through a real Leslie cabinet. I've played 2 different models myself in pubs.
We are not back stabbing Yamaha at all. We are good customers and we buy their top of range keyboards because we are willing to pay for good sounds.
In the main, we are pleased with our purchases which reflects well on Yamaha but that doesn't mean that they can do no wrong and,
if something is not up to par, we feel entitled to say that this could do with improvement. 
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 08, 2021, 07:36:56 PM
Quote
I personally don't think that even Yamaha can make any great improvements without doubling the price, so what is the point of stabbing Yamaha in the back.
I agree with Duffy. We're not stabbing Yamaha in the back. When Yamaha released the Genos, they bragged about their new revolution in sound, and rightly so. Somehow the organs got left behind. As Duffy mentioned, there are far cheaper keyboards with stellar B3 and Leslie sounds. Yamaha can do it. They simply choose not to, a decision probably directed by their marketing people. You'd be surprised how many things are squashed by those people.

On the other hand, unlike so many companies that totally ignore customer feedback, Yamaha will read about this. You can count on it. Will we have to wait for the next release? Probably. For Yamaha, there's no money in fixing this. Genos 1 has run its course. Other than extreme OS bugs, they're finished with the updates.

Shall we start the debate as to the Genos II release date ;D??!!

Edit
Here is an excellent comparison made by SoryT. To me it shows that the Genos organ drawbar voices are fine. It's the processor that is weak. He's using a Lester K in his video. I would spend the few extra coins and get the Lester G. It's a guitar pedal. The difference is, with the Lester G, you can alter the ramp up and slow down speeds of the Leslie. I have no idea why they would not have included that with the Lester K?? (The K stands for "keyboard.").

Have a listen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FHdjg5A7wE  Thanks, SoryT!
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Rich Z on October 08, 2021, 08:25:46 PM
I found the round tuit and cranked up not only my Korg Kronos but the Kurzweil PC3 in mothball status.  Both of those keyboards handled the Leslie tone cabinet emulation in stride and satisfactorily for the organ sounds.  Not all of the sounds (or programs as they call them) implemented this, as some were just not appropriate, but the greater majority do and all of the ones you would expect when they are any sort of Hammond B3 or derivative sound.

So this is not rocket science. Yamaha really has no legitimate excuse, as best I can tell. If there IS one, I sure would like to hear it. And I can't believe the Genos has been out this long and a REAL stink hasn't been raised about it.  I watched every review and comparison of sounds I could find on YouTube where the Genos was involved, and best of my recollection not a single solitary soul brought this up.  Yeah, maybe it isn't important to some people, but I'm guessing it is to some others.

No it is not stabbing Yamaha in the back at all.  It is a slap to their face.  Yamaha, you screwed this up! FIX IT, PLEASE! I could understand if this was a $300 Casio we are talking about, but no, it's a $6000 Yamaha keyboard. Supposedly their TOP OF THE LINE arranger.  Quite frankly, I expected better. Maybe if I had never had a Hammond B3 and used real Leslie tone cabinets this wouldn't be such a sensitive nerve to me.  But I did, and it is.  So would I buy a Genos 2 in order to resolve this problem? Not on your life. It is not like I am complaining about the implementation of a non keyboard instrument like a guitar or saxophone on a keyboard.  This is an ORGAN sound. One of the most popular EVER.  It don't get any more KEYBOARD than that.

In reference to the above mention about all the YouTube videos I watched, I am thinking seriously of generating my own video detailing this problem.  It just might save someone else from making the mistake I feel I did buying this flawed product. Yeah, the Genos appears to be a darn nice instrument otherwise, but that "otherwise" pill is really stuck in my throat.

For me to send it back I would also have to pack up the $900 worth of accessories I got for free based on the discount code I got from my original purchase of the Genos from Alto Music. Lordy, that would be a real pain in the butt to do.  And I would likely be footing the bill for return shipping for all that stuff too.  **** that pill is bitter, but I'm not sure I can hack it up instead of swallowing it and just living with the aftertaste.

Well, this was my second Yamaha product after the piano I bought for my wife years ago.  Unless I see them address this issue in a satisfactory method, it will certainly be my last.

Anyway, I haven't heard anything back from Yamaha about my complaint concerning this issue.  That is usually what happens when a company has your money chooses to ignore the complaints.

Sorry to be raining on this parade.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: RONBO on October 08, 2021, 09:34:34 PM
Hereís what I get out of all this. Iíll just use the organ flutes provided by the Genos instead of the JS sounds. The Leslie effect works much better on the flutes anyway. At least good enough for me and practically anybody thatís listening

Unless you have a b3 close by with a Leslie or two attached no one in most every case will not know the difference. Be thankful for the overall performance of your Genos

Just play it

Regards

Ron
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 08, 2021, 09:35:38 PM
Rich, you have some legitimate concerns. I too find it amazing that Yamaha overlooked this very serious voicing issue when they got everything else near perfect. It's the first time I've needed stellar B3 sounds and since the strings, brass, E. pianos, and regular pianos sound great, I was taken aback.

We're both into $6,000+ for our respective Genos keyboards. Perhaps going a few extra bucks for a proper pedal would make us both happy. I'm going to really think about it, depending on how difficult it is to route the Lester G for controlling the B3 sounds.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 08, 2021, 09:39:48 PM
Good point, Ron. I need these B3 samples for a band that plays R&B from the 60s through the 80s. There's not one soul in the audience who will know the difference between the onboard Leslie and the external Lester G pedal. The point is, I will.

A fellow musician once told me that if you sound terrible on stage, you won't play well. He was 100% spot on. If I can get a more authentic sound from the Lester G, I'll play better. (That and hours of practice ::)!)
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: RONBO on October 08, 2021, 09:43:30 PM
Lee

Iím thinking you will never sound bad even if youíre playing a garboon

Regards

Ron
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: soryt on October 08, 2021, 09:43:54 PM
To Rich , sell the Genos and go back to youíre last keys , you will never know how good the Genos is in the few months you are playing it .After almost 4 years with the Genos I know Al the pro and cons of this machine and I know that it isnít perfect but it is on this moment the best (top) arranger keyboard on the market .
I have also a Nord 5D for the drawbar sounds, indeed a lot better than the Genos with the Lester K ,this is a very fine combination and if you prefer a real organ feeling and playing you have to invest in a really good Hammond clone or the real thing.
I had a lot ideas to improve the Genos ( see other posts) but for now itís the best you can get..
Just play it !

Soneg  :)
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 08, 2021, 10:15:45 PM
Hi Soneg,

Would you please re-post the connection details for using a Lester G pedal for the B3 sounds on the Genos? It would be great if you include the wiring, as well as, the changes to the Genos signal routing. Many thanks!
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Duffy on October 08, 2021, 10:53:09 PM
Just listened to SoryT and his Lester K. Quite impressive and quite a close impression of a Leslie cabinet without spending a fortune.
Certainly far better than the Genos on it's own.
It does look as though we must find our own paths until at least Genos 2.
My state of health might mean game over before then but at least I know that it's not just me who's nit picking at the Genos.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: pjd on October 09, 2021, 12:17:45 AM
Just catching up on this thread and there are so many good comments. Too much to unpack. :-\

Not that I want to defend Yamaha too much because I've been after them for years about better rotary speaker simulation. For the YC61, Yamaha put the right people on the job -- Toshifumi Kunimoto (Dr. K) and his people. Dr. K was responsible for VL synthesis, VCM, Neve preamp simulation and more. Modeling a rotary speaker is a little like rocket science. If the task was so easy, anybody could and would have done it by now.

The YC, Montage and MODX forums are full of whinging. So, it's not like Yamaha isn't getting or hearing the comments. Genos and other PSRs share the same B3 waveforms and rotary speaker algorithms as Montage and MODX. The Montage and MODX effect architecture does allow two insert effects per voice, so one can at least stack tube amp sim in front of rotary speaker simulation. (Without standing on your head.) Like many other voices, Montage/MODX organs are programmed and voiced differently than Genos/PSR organ voices.

YC is a whole 'nother bird and makes extensive use of modeling, not just sampling. Maybe Dr. K and company didn't get the right musician feedback during development? Who knows? They have the math and engineering chops, for sure.

As to Lester K (or G), yeah, I got one of them. It is not a panacea. On some registrations, I hear this high frequency swirling stuff that drives me nuts and I'm back to using the in-built Yamaha rotary sim. I agree with Gary -- the newer sim is not necessarily the better sim. DUAL ROT BRIGHT and DUAL ROT WARM are my go-to's.

Giving Yamaha user feedback is all well and good. We are customers, after all. I agree with Ron, tho'. It is what it is for now and let's just freaking play!  :)

Best to all -- pj
 
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: soryt on October 11, 2021, 09:01:42 PM
Hi Soneg,

Would you please re-post the connection details for using a Lester G pedal for the B3 sounds on the Genos? It would be great if you include the wiring, as well as, the changes to the Genos signal routing. Many thanks!
Sorry for late response, i routed the Ch 3 (Stereo) audio apart in the mixer into the Lester inputs and the outputs to the Line in of the Genos and when using the drawbars you have to use the reverb effect in place of the rotary effect ( Rotary doesnít work on separate outputs)  . I made in the Lester an extra plug to control te speed with a foot pedal , than I could adjust the knobs with the unit on top of the Genos .
This is the same if you want to use a other brand like the Neo Ventilator.
I hope this helps ,  I have sold the Lester after I bought the Nord D5 ( it sound sooo good 👍 )
Best Regards, 
Soneg  :)
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 11, 2021, 09:24:40 PM
Great, thanks Soryt!

I had a Nord 5D but I traded it for my Genos. I also found that the 5D always had about 10% overdrive on the B3s. With the 4D, you could turn that off 100%. I believe a later OS update to the 5D's made it so the drive could be dialed down to 0%.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: soryt on October 12, 2021, 02:15:17 PM
Maybe nice to see and to listen to a recording wich i made with the Tyros 5 and a Motion sound Pro 3T ( + smal 10"subwoofer)  , Of course with the plain Drawbars of the T5

Gives a idea how the present Rotary units come close to a real rotary speaker . not the best playing but  . . . . .   :)

https://youtu.be/7I8NwQLXgT8

https://youtu.be/cdw6Lw30Vt0

Soneg  8)
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 12, 2021, 02:59:41 PM
Thanks, Soneg.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: emasters on October 15, 2021, 01:51:10 AM
I too have been disappointed with the B3 sounds on my Tyros 5 (not Genos).  That said, using the Neo Ventilator 2 really helps the sound.  Yamaha still lacks the vibrato that one finds on a B3.  But having a convincing Leslie and distortion emulation really helps.  Not inexpensive, but well worth the investment if you use your keyboard gigging and need a better B3/Leslie sound.

https://neo-instruments.com/ventilator-2/ (https://neo-instruments.com/ventilator-2/)
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Rich Z on October 15, 2021, 05:06:22 AM
I too have been disappointed with the B3 sounds on my Tyros 5 (not Genos).  That said, using the Neo Ventilator 2 really helps the sound.  Yamaha still lacks the vibrato that one finds on a B3.  But having a convincing Leslie and distortion emulation really helps.  Not inexpensive, but well worth the investment if you use your keyboard gigging and need a better B3/Leslie sound.

https://neo-instruments.com/ventilator-2/ (https://neo-instruments.com/ventilator-2/)

Excuse me if I am overlooking something obvious, but on an arranger keyboard playing it as such, wouldn't such a device make EVERYTHING being output through it via the audio out jacks on the Genos use the Leslie emulation?  Drums, strings, piano, guitar, etc, being played during the accompaniment? I would like to play something like Whiter Shade of Pale but I would want ONLY the B3 sound playing to provide the Leslie emulation as it should. Anything other than that would just sound weird.

Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 15, 2021, 01:28:47 PM
Excuse me if I am overlooking something obvious, but on an arranger keyboard playing it as such, wouldn't such a device make EVERYTHING being output through it via the audio out jacks on the Genos use the Leslie emulation?  Drums, strings, piano, guitar, etc, being played during the accompaniment? I would like to play something like Whiter Shade of Pale but I would want ONLY the B3 sound playing to provide the Leslie emulation as it should. Anything other than that would just sound weird.
You're right Rich, but to use an external Leslie emulator on the Right 1 voice (for example) you need to route the Right 1 voice to one of the Sub Outs of the Genos --> Separate mixer channel. The end result is a stereo mixed signal of the Genos L/R channels and the Right 1 voice panned to Center on the external mixer. There's an earlier post on how to connect the emulator so you can have it on top of your Genos and activate the unit from a pedal on the floor.

Someone else can chime in on this if there is an even better way to do this. Thanks.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: overover on October 15, 2021, 04:31:34 PM
@Rich Z
Hi Rich,

A small addition to Lee's remarks:

If the external Leslie emulation device has a MONO input, you only use ONE sub out. If it has a STEREO input, you can use TWO sub outs of the Genos (Tyros5 / SX900). (The signal is then automatically output in STEREO.)

You can connect the (stereo) outputs of the Leslie emulation to an external mixer. Of course, the Main outputs of the keyboard, via which all other parts are played, must also be connected to the mixer.

Alternatively, you could connect the stereo outputs of the Leslie emulation back to the Genos via the AUX inputs. Then all parts would be output together at the Main outputs (or via the Genos speakers).


Best regards,
Chris
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: emasters on October 16, 2021, 12:17:58 AM
Another option I use sometimes performing, is route the MIDI out of Voice 3 (using MIDI setup), to an external iPad running the IK Multimedia B-3X App on my iPad.  Then as Chris suggests, route the iPad audio out back into the keyboard, via the Aux In (stereo), so the keyboard master out includes both the arranger voices and the B3 audio from the iPad.  By turning on/off Voice 3, I control the external organ sound, and can control the volume using the Aux In volume slider.  This actually works really well and the IK Hammond sound is very good.  I also have an older Native Instruments B4D drawbar controller that I also route via MIDI, into the iPad -- and can thus control the B3-X drawbars in real-time, via this controller.  A bit more work to configure and route wires, but the result really is very good.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 16, 2021, 01:18:15 AM
Thanks for the great ideas, guys :)!
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Rich Z on October 16, 2021, 05:27:54 AM
It sounds to me that no one here really has any hope that Yamaha will fix this problem.

I am having discussions with Yamaha now, and they have asked me to take video of the problem and forward that to them.  Has anyone else already done this? They are talking like this reported problem is all brand new to them and they never heard of it before.  Seems rather unlikely to me, so would I just be wasting my time?
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 16, 2021, 02:05:45 PM
First of all Rich, it's truly amazing that you actually got an audience with Yamaha. It's a great company and one of the few that actually listens to the very musicians to whom they sell millions of dollars worth of instruments and gear. It may very well be the first time anyone has reported this to them, especially since the vast majority of Genos customers seem to be home players who may not hear any problem with the Leslie effect.

By all means, produce the video! Let us know if you need any input. Hats off to Yamaha for offering to investigate this. It may be a simple OS update for them.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Amwilburn on October 16, 2021, 07:13:42 PM
...After almost 4 years with the Genos I know Al the pro and cons of this machine and I know that it isnít perfect but it is on this moment the best (top) arranger keyboard on the market .
I have also a Nord 5D for the drawbar sounds, indeed a lot better than the Genos with the Lester K ,this is a very fine combination and if you prefer a real organ feeling and playing you have to invest in a really good Hammond clone or the real thing.
I had a lot ideas to improve the Genos ( see other posts) but for now itís the best you can get..
Just play it !

Soneg  :)

Soneg: correct! If any customer asks me, I *do* tell them that the weak point on the Genos is the Hammond sounds (the Pipe organs, on the other hand, are better than anyone else's). And then I tell them if they *have* to have a fantastic Hammond sound, get a Korg Cx3, Hammond XK1 (& later), Nord Stage/Electro

There was also a live organ pack that did a really good job available for Tyros/PSR-S/Genos, however it wasn't an actual slowdown or speedup of the rotary speakers; it was literally sampled at low speed/high speed, and then you cross faded between the 2 samples using the mod wheel. Believe it or not, in a mix (ie not just the organ) you didn't even hear the difference; obviously you could hear it playing *only* the organ.

They then released a new version, which relied on the DSP to switch rotary speeds, but as Yamahamusicsoft.com was completely wiped and rebooted, I don't know where to get it.

Nevermind, found the original thread: It was published by EasySounds

https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php?topic=43433.0

Mark
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: andyg on October 16, 2021, 09:39:45 PM
Bottom line:

The preset JS sounds are sampled Hammond - I know the people who did the sampling and programming. One sample of leslie chorale and one at leslie tremolo (well, multiple samples of each across the keyboard range or the tremolo speeds would vary from pedestrian to mickey mouse fast). And the Mod Wheel simply fades between them. OK for tremolo or chorale but no wind up/down. Although people have complained, it seems no-one has thought about the reasons behind what Yamaha have done.

All the samples were taken with the leslie on tremolo or chorale so the speeds were constant between samples, which are quite short. Hammond organ is a static waveform after the initial attack transient, so no need for long samples.

If you wanted to sample the wind up/down, you'd have to do that separately for every sampled note and the samples would be much longer - several seconds if the leslie's lower drum rotor drive motors and drive belts are working correctly. More of a problem is that, being mechanical, the leslie being sampled would not speed up and slow down exactly the same each time and that could cause all sorts of phasing issues when playing more than one note at a time.

No-one, to the best of my knowledge, has actually successfully sampled the wind up/down and implemented it in an instrument, whether hardware or virtual. The DSP effects that all manufacturers use vary in quality and sometimes I think they mess it up, which is why I never use 'Real Rotor' on the Genos. Pedals and boxes like the Ventilator are designed to recreate the sound of a miked up leslie, ready to be fed into a PA system on stage. They do the job very well but what they don't and cannot do is recreate the sound of a live leslie placed a few feet away from the player - which is what most organists will be hearing. They don't move air, nor can they reproduce the myriad reflections and doppler effects of sound bouncing off nearby walls etc.

The Tyros 5 and Genos are capable of producing some excellent organ and leslie effects - not just Hammond, but other makes such as Lowrey and Thomas. However, 'out of the box' just doesn't cut it and I spent much time with the Tyros 5 recreating several different organ and leslie combinations. Alas, those settings were lost to me when COVID forced the music school at Bonners to close. But trust me, if you know how your various organs and leslies really work, and you're prepared to put the time and effort into it, you CAN get great results.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: emasters on October 16, 2021, 10:13:34 PM
I agree with AndyG - no amount of electronic gear is going to reproduce the physics of sound waves being spread around a room from a Leslie speaker.  That said, external devices can do a credible job recreating the mic'd sound of a Leslie coming from two stereo speakers - but it's just not the same thing.  The other factor that really shapes the sound of a Leslie speaker (and thus, a B3 or clone played through it), is resonance.  Many of the Leslie simulators do a good job handling the rotating speaker aspect.  But with an actual Leslie, the top and bottom cabinets, along with the shape of the cone on top, produce a very recognizable sound with resonance.  This is particularly true when the Leslie amp is overdriven to distort, and that is then piped through the upper rotor.  I found on the web, a frequency chart for a Leslie speaker.  Turns out much of its energy is focused around 1kHz and 2kHz.  A while back I purchased two Moogerfooger low-pass filters (after all, no one does resonance better than Moog).  If I pass the sound of a B3 clone through these low pass filters and adjust the resonance amount and filter frequency for each a little differently (into the range of a Leslie's resonance), it does wonders to recreate the sound of a B3 -- you get that distinctive growl that's typified by a Leslie speaker.  Send that along to the Neo Ventilator 2 for the rotating effect, and one get's close to a mic'd Leslie sound.  It's really amazing how much is going on with the sound of a B3 and Leslie (which is why I'm not critical of Yamaha, it's a challenge to recreate).  Hard to image a clock-maker like Lawrence Hammond (who incidentally did not like the sound of a Leslie speaker on his organs), creating such a staple in keyboard lore.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: emasters on October 16, 2021, 10:20:10 PM
Oops... Laurens Hammond :)
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Rich Z on October 17, 2021, 03:53:39 PM
OK, I took video last night showing the issue so Yamaha will know what I am talking about.  Not the best video I have ever done, but it will suffice, I guess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGA4FpfJepU

I just sent the link to Yamaha a few minutes ago, so we'll see how they respond to it.  My guess is that they will claim that it isn't a bug, but a feature.    ;)

BTW, while doing the video, I noticed that those JS organ voices just sound weird to me.  The difference between the high and low rotary effect makes them sound like samples of two different organ sounds. Quite honestly, if they can't be fixed, I would just as soon just delete them.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: MadrasGiaguari on October 17, 2021, 04:15:37 PM
Dear friends,

it is true that no clones may reach the full effect of a real Leslie.

But among clones there is a variety of results. Genos is not the best, neither one of the best, that's for sure.

I like to share with you my experience with Hammond (Suzuki) Xm2 expander + Xmc2 controller unit, Midi controlled by Genos.
You may see that the Leslie emulation is far better than Genos. Please note the ramp up/down feature, with separate speed for low rotor and tweeter horns.
It is also remarkable that the fast Leslie effect stays valid on the high octaves also, without getting vibrato-like, as it is on Genos.

This expander is based on Hammond Suzuki XK1, and is out of production (wonder why....).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYDasMOBIkM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYDasMOBIkM)

Ciao,

Angelo
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Duffy on October 17, 2021, 07:50:27 PM
Much much better than the Genos Angelo.
Enjoyed listening - thanks very much for posting.
That module would be under serious consideration if it were still in production.
Such a pity it's not but I'm surprised that Hammond - Suzuki have dropped something which could still sell.
Maybe it was hitting the sales of such as the Skx etc.
Don't suppose there is much chance of it being brought back by popular demand.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Duffy on October 17, 2021, 08:03:41 PM
OK, I took video last night showing the issue so Yamaha will know what I am talking about.  Not the best video I have ever done, but it will suffice, I guess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGA4FpfJepU

I just sent the link to Yamaha a few minutes ago, so we'll see how they respond to it.  My guess is that they will claim that it isn't a bug, but a feature.    ;)

BTW, while doing the video, I noticed that those JS organ voices just sound weird to me.  The difference between the high and low rotary effect makes them sound like samples of two different organ sounds. Quite honestly, if they can't be fixed, I would just as soon just delete them.

Thanks for the trouble you have taken Rich on behalf of all of us.
If Yamaha looks at the comments on this site (and they really should) they can see numerous examples of how their sound fails compared to so many other manufacturers.
I say they should look at this site because all us guys spend a lot of money on their products so surely they are interested in how well received their products are.
Apart from the Hammond sound, the Genos is an incredible keyboard and deserves an update to put this problem right without us having to experiment or tinker at all.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Amwilburn on October 18, 2021, 12:44:14 AM
OK, I took video last night showing the issue so Yamaha will know what I am talking about.  Not the best video I have ever done, but it will suffice, I guess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGA4FpfJepU

I just sent the link to Yamaha a few minutes ago, so we'll see how they respond to it.  My guess is that they will claim that it isn't a bug, but a feature.    ;)

BTW, while doing the video, I noticed that those JS organ voices just sound weird to me.  The difference between the high and low rotary effect makes them sound like samples of two different organ sounds. Quite honestly, if they can't be fixed, I would just as soon just delete them.

Ah... I see what you're talking about exactly now... however, the JS sounds stand for Joystick (on the older Yamahas it was mod wheel); you literally used the mod wheel to gradually spin from slow to fast. You're not supposed to use the button; tilt the joystick up gradually to gradually increase the speed; Press modulation hold to lock it at the fast speed. Pulling the joystick down works as a volume/expression pedal.

Yes that's not convenient for 2 handed play; but your videos were also 1 handed playing

Mark
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 18, 2021, 01:55:09 PM
Thanks again everyone for your contributions to my discussion. I believe those who start a discussion should monitor it and contribute as sort of a ďsub-moderator.Ē I would have answered sooner but ironically, my Genos and I were away for practices that require a ton of B3 samples!

Nice video, Rich. You're playing is fine and you get the point across about the JS voices. Mark, I see your point that the JS voices can be controlled gradually with the joy stick and not the Rotary button. I suppose that's valid but it is also counter-intuitive to how organs are played. The original organs with Leslie had a toggle button on the left side, correct? Yamaha placed that button in a very similar position so that the original Leslie players would feel right at home. Problem is, the button is a dismal failure due to its instant on, instant off character. Also, if you use the left hand to operate the joy stick, how do you make chord changes at the same time? Yamaha also gave us the ability to turn the Rotary effect on and off by assigning it to a footswitch so it would free up our left hand. I agree with Rich in that the voices are subpar and should be deleted. They really are poor compared to every other voice, which Yamaha brought to near perfection.

I think Yamaha will reply that you can create your own draw bar positions and use the Detail section of the Rotary Effect to adjust the Leslie parameters. Now that Iíve had a few practices with my new R&B band where I use a fair amount of B3 samples, I can see that when played with a mix of other live instruments, the B3 stands out fine. As a solo instrument just with the Genos rhythms, the B3s arenít that great.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: andyg on October 18, 2021, 04:23:57 PM
Organs with internal leslie units have their speed switches wherever the designers want to put them. That could be almost anywhere and it could be a stop tablet, a rocker stop tablet, a simple switch or a push button.

If you're thinking of external Leslie cabinets, these are traditionally controlled with 'half moon' switches, mounted on the front rail of the organ. Up to the organist/store/technician where these get mounted. I always put mine near the centre of the lower manual, where my left hand is most of the time. I can 'palm' the switch from fast to slow, or flick it with thumb or little finger while still holding a chord.

If you're thinking of using the joystick to cross fade between the fast and slow speed samples, no you can't do this at the same time as you play a chord, so you'd have to time things so that you make the change very quickly between chords. And of course the joystick won't stay in place, so when you let it go, it's back to slow leslie, and the 'hold' button is no use for the reason you give. At least the mod wheel stayed put!

As I said earlier, if you take the time to really work at the Organ Flute drawbars and the various rotary effects available to you, you can get good results. But if you rely on what's "out of the box" you will be disappointed.

Yes, instruments like a Nord or Hammond SK/XK will make better Hammond+Leslie sounds, but they don't do what an arranger keyboard does and the 'extra voices' or whatever they choose to call them aren't in the same league as the Genos or Tyros.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: DerekA on October 18, 2021, 04:39:28 PM
If you're thinking of using the joystick to cross fade between the fast and slow speed samples, no you can't do this at the same time as you play a chord, so you'd have to time things so that you make the change very quickly between chords. And of course the joystick won't stay in place, so when you let it go, it's back to slow leslie, and the 'hold' button is no use for the reason you give. At least the mod wheel stayed put!

I'm not advocating using the JS voice in this way, because it should be seen as a 'simplified' version, and you should use OrganFlutes + DSP to get a better version.

But .. if you must .. remember that an assignable slider / knob can be set to control 'Modulation'. Then it does the same thing as the joystick +/-, only it stays where you put it.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 18, 2021, 06:21:20 PM
Thanks for clarifying the Leslie switch positions, Andy. I've only seen it on the left side of the organ but never knew where else they were placed. Good to know.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Amwilburn on October 18, 2021, 06:23:31 PM
If you're thinking of using the joystick to cross fade between the fast and slow speed samples, no you can't do this at the same time as you play a chord, so you'd have to time things so that you make the change very quickly between chords. And of course the joystick won't stay in place, so when you let it go, it's back to slow leslie, and the 'hold' button is no use for the reason you give. At least the mod wheel stayed put!


As mentioned above, that's why they have the modulation hold; it simulates keeping the joystick in place.
I personally would have preferred a mod wheel *and* a joystick for exactly this reason. You're right, I'm used to hitting a button (or in the case of Electone, a foot switch to the side of the volume pedal) but any voice labelled "JS" is intended to be controlled that way (note the old versions were labelled MW for mod wheel, and in my opinion, superior to control). One of the things I'd want on a new flagship is a JS *and* a MW for exactly this sort of thing.

Incidentally the joystick with hold button is used for a myriad of things on the Genos. Acoustic piano lid position locking, or EP mic pickup position locking, etc. The point is, the JS sounds are supposed to be analog control *only*, so they'll sound weird with any on/off controls. And personally I preferred the modwheel versions (go back and try a MW organ on an s970 or the current sx600, for example. it's brilliant. And yes the other JS controls I just mentioned work there too, but better with a mod wheel).

Having cut my teeth on Jupiter 8 and Electone, I actually have no problem playing right hand chord changes while holdong a joystick, but then obvs I can't play bass notes. And I understand folks who didn't get used to playing like that feeling like it's alien.

I don't have a volume pedal handy to try this, but I believe if you set a volume pedal to mod+ (same as Joystick + on the JS organs) you'd then have your gradual speed up. Admittedly still not as convenient as the Genos doing the speed up for you (you'd still be controlling rotary speed directly via angle of volume pedal), just explaining how they were intended to be used.

Mark
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Rich Z on October 18, 2021, 08:11:36 PM
I just went over and cranked up the Genos to check out using the joystick with those JS organ sounds.  IMHO, fail.  The joystick doesn't really do a Leslie tone cabinet emulation at all, from slow speed to fast speed.  The joystick is still acting as an on/off switch for a tremolo effect, with the only change taking place is the amplitude of the tremolo effect. Matter of fact, you can see the "rotary" button light just above it light up when the tremolo amplitude has reached a certain point.  There is no apparent change in rotational effect speed of the "rotary" speaker nature of the Leslie tone cabinets whatsoever.  I listened to this very closely.  My wife happened to be over in that room with me at the time, and I was showing her the difference.  Her only comment was that the effect produced by the JS organ voices just sounded awful. And she is not a keyboard player.

And honestly, even if the joystick operation did produce a true rotary speaker/Leslie effect, IMHO, it would be pretty much useless on an arranger keyboard used as an arranger.  Not unless you were using chord loops for your playing, because you just wouldn't have enough hands to effect chord changes in the accompaniment, play the lead melody, and slowly push up on the joystick to emulate the ramping up in speed and slowing down of same of that organ voice.

As for the switch used with my Hammond B3 and the Leslie tone cabinets, I used the standard lever type toggle switch mounted just below the base note keys on the lower keyboard, activated with my left palm in a sweeping motion, until I found I had that "three hand" problem more often than not, and eventually converted it over to a foot switch, which worked a WHOLE lot better in actual playing.  Even using the joystick if you wanted to have analog control over the depth of the tremolo, you would still have that "three hand" problem to deal with. So what was the point?

So from the evidence I see, there is no way to actually use those JS organ voices to produce a true (or even just mostly) satisfactory Leslie tone cabinet emulation.  I still stand by my claim this is an error on Yamaha's part mostly from the evidence that the JS organ voice with "Whiter" in the title of it, clearly indicating it's target emulation is for the song "Whiter Shade of Pale".  And it would fail completely in that regard since anyone familiar with the song would NOT use if for that purpose at all. Again, IMHO.

IMHO, I would prefer just deleting them if they cannot be fixed to work properly.

I pointed Yamaha to this thread and am still awaiting a response from them
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 18, 2021, 08:47:23 PM
Agreed, Rich. I unpacked my Genos and tried engaging the JS Organ Leslie effect with the joy stick. It's a waste of time and simply doesn't work. The presets themselves aren't bad. The terrible thing is we can't assign the Rotary DSP to these voices, whereby we would have access to the Detail screen for altering the ramp up and down speeds.

Yamaha will likely tell us to just create them ourselves (mentioned earlier by me) but isn't the point of presets to be able to access voices quickly without having to do all the adjustments? The Detail screen is good for tweaking a voice. As presets go, the JS organs are terrible and a waste of memory.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: overover on October 18, 2021, 09:56:32 PM
Hi all,

With the "JS" or "MW" organ voices, the Rotary Speaker ("Leslie") effect is already included in the samples. With the joy stick (or the mod wheel) you can only cross-fade between two different samples, i.e. in the zero position you only hear one sample, in the maximum position you only hear the other sample. In between you can hear a mixture (overlay) of both samples.


My recommendation to all "lovers of B3 / Leslie Sounds":

Listen to the audio demos of the Expansion Packs "Live Organ" and "Organ Session" from "Easy Sounds" (available for Genos, PSR-SX, Tyros5, PSR-S):

(https://easysoundsshop.de/media/image/b9/dc/23/Genos_LiveOrgan_200x200.png)

>>> https://easysoundsshop.de/en/yamaha-electronic-keyboards/yamaha-genos/6/genos-live-organ-download

>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPRk1lN8Dow


(https://easysoundsshop.de/media/image/3c/f6/30/Genos_OrganSession_200x200.png)

>>> https://easysoundsshop.de/en/yamaha-electronic-keyboards/yamaha-genos/7/genos-organ-session-download

>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oELf4TSlGok


As a beta tester, I was allowed to give Peter Krischker and Hans-Peter Henkel some tips for these two packs, which could still be implemented in the final versions. Basically, I think both packs turned out well.


NOTE:
The "Live Organ" pack contains the Rotary Speaker effect in the samples, and it is only faded between the different samples using the joystick or mod wheel (just like for the "JS" or "MW" preset voices of the Genos described).

However, in the "Organ Session" pack, all sample recordings were done without using amplifier, distortion and leslie. This allows flexible using of the DSPs and realistic switching between "slow" and "fast" using the Rotary Speaker effect.


Best regards,
Chris
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 19, 2021, 12:46:43 PM
Great to know, Chris! Thanks for the post. I assume we have to use the mysterious and clunky YEM software for loading this into the Genos? The only thing I detest about Yamaha is their software. It's often counter-intuitive to people who are so used to using MS products.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 19, 2021, 01:23:42 PM
I found this YouTube video. It is an excellent comparison of the Genos organs vs Hammond. Unfortunately, he uses the Overdrive on the Genos, which colors the sound in an odd way but the man describes the Genos as being tinny in the high frequency area and weak in the midrange. I've always wondered why the Genos and Tyros organs never sounded quite right. I think he got that correct.

Chris - does that software address the high and mid frequencies issue? Thanks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GVeJXjyoDk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GVeJXjyoDk)
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: overover on October 19, 2021, 04:33:42 PM
Great to know, Chris! Thanks for the post. I assume we have to use the mysterious and clunky YEM software for loading this into the Genos? The only thing I detest about Yamaha is their software. It's often counter-intuitive to people who are so used to using MS products.

Hi Lee,

If you want to install several Packs on the Genos at the same time, you have to use the YEM to create your own Pack Install file (.cpi/.ppi). In addition to the .ppf version, Easy Sounds Packs also contain a Pack Install file (.ppi). With this, the respective Pack can be installed individually and without using the YEM. (However, as soon as another Pack is to be installed, you absolutely need the YEM.)


P.S.
I'm not entirely "happy" with the YEM either, but you can work with it now. The fundamental problem is that within Yamaha the arranger keyboard development team and the synth development team work almost completely separately and always "keep their cards close". I already mentioned this here in Germany in 2014 at some meetings with the Japanese Genos development team. Both teams could learn a lot from each other (in terms of software and hardware), but somehow they just don't want that.


Best regards,
Chris
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: overover on October 19, 2021, 10:27:49 PM
I found this YouTube video. It is an excellent comparison of the Genos organs vs Hammond. Unfortunately, he uses the Overdrive on the Genos, which colors the sound in an odd way but the man describes the Genos as being tinny in the high frequency area and weak in the midrange. I've always wondered why the Genos and Tyros organs never sounded quite right. I think he got that correct.

Chris - does that software address the high and mid frequencies issue? Thanks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GVeJXjyoDk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GVeJXjyoDk)

Hi Lee,

In my opinion, this comparison doesn't say much. We do not know exactly which settings were used on the Genos. Basically, it is noticeable that the Hammond sound is darker (less high frequencies). It is possible that certain frequencies are overemphasized in the Genos Master EQ. The reason for the big difference could also be due to the recording method.

Many users make the mistake of turning up the low and high frequencies too far, e.g. using the Master EQ, so that drums (and bass) sound "good". As a result, however, many other voices sound "thin" and are treble-heavy. There are many options on the Genos to make the sound warmer/darker (and thus fuller and more powerful), e.g. Part EQ, Voice Edit (Filter), Effects/DSPs, Master EQ, possibly Master Compressor).

The Easy Sounds Packs, as well as for example the CMS Sounddesign Packs/Voices are professionally sampled, and the Genos AWM Stereo Sampling technology in connection with the likewise professional DSP/VCM effects as well as the very good sounding DACs (digital/analog converters) is certainly not the reason for a generally "bad" sound, e.g. in the mid and high frequencies. Incidentally, the Genos uses 32-bit DACs in the main outs, all other DACs are 24-bit.

With Expansion Voices you can achieve almost everything in terms of sound that is not possible or not possible well enough with "on-board tools" of the Genos. But you shouldn't underestimate the internal Genos sounds. Probably very few users have ever looked at the Voice, Effect Type and Effect Parameter Lists in the Genos Data List. There is a lot of potential in there that needs to be used.


Best regards,
Chris
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 20, 2021, 01:09:31 PM
Excellent points, Chris. As I said earlier, I think the B3s sound fine in a band mix. I will explore the various EQs and filters. Thanks for the detailed write-up ;)!
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: pjd on October 20, 2021, 11:00:34 PM
OK, I took video last night showing the issue so Yamaha will know what I am talking about. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGA4FpfJepU

I just sent the link to Yamaha a few minutes ago, so we'll see how they respond to it.  My guess is that they will claim that it isn't a bug, but a feature.    ;)

BTW, while doing the video, I noticed that those JS organ voices just sound weird to me.  The difference between the high and low rotary effect makes them sound like samples of two different organ sounds. Quite honestly, if they can't be fixed, I would just as soon just delete them.

Hi Rich --

I watched your demo video and actually read your on-screen comments.  ;) A few thoughts...

The JS organ voices are really old. Some of these voices were first introduced in Tyros 3 (2008), "WhiterBars JS" (8/32/30), in particular. That voice is switching (or crossfading) between the WhiterBarsSlow and WhiterBarsFast samples. You can hear this by selecting WhiterBarsSlow (104/1/18) and then selecting WhiterBarsFast (104/0/18) in the Legacy voice category.

Both WhiterBarsSlow and WhiterBarsFast have the Leslie sampled in. That is, the Leslie effect is an integral sonic component of the base waveforms. If one crossfades a slow Leslie waveform and a fast Leslie waveform, ya get a swirling steaming heap of sonic rubbish.

The world and even Yamaha have moved on since 2008. However, Yamaha made a marketing mistake by featuring the JS organs so prominently. Manufacturers usually put the flagship piano voice at the top of the piano category -- it should be the same for drawbar organ voices.

Overall, I wouldn't bother with the JS voices. (Even complaining to Yamaha.) If you're speaking with a customer service rep at Yamaha, they are likely to respond, "That's the way the JS organ voices are expected to behave," i.e., it's not a bug; Move along, nothing to see here.

It's better to pressure Yamaha to improve the Organ Flutes engine and the rotary speaker DSP effect. They invested in the YC61 organ technology. I'd like to see an improved version of that YC technology in Genos.

I'm glad that you have passion about this issue and are raising issues with Yamaha.

All the best -- pj
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: pjd on October 21, 2021, 06:13:16 PM
I forgot to mention another (well-known) issue when the Leslie is sampled in.

Think of a rotor as a circle with 360 degrees. For a single struck note, the current rotor position depends upon the time from initial key strike and the sample playback rate of the struck note. If the musician plays and holds two or more notes, the rotor position is very likely to be different for each note. In other words, the rotor positions are not synchronized -- highly unrealistic.

The WhiterBarsFast voice consists of one voice element with 22 key banks. The top and bottom key banks cover C5 to G8 and C-2 to D#0, respectively. Each of the remaining key banks cover 3 semitones. Thus, there is plenty of opportunity to be out of sync. The lower and upper extremes are the worst and the sample playback rate distorts the rotor speed by quite a wide margin.

Someone at Yamaha knows this very well. They filed patents (US Patent 9,899,016) to solve this problem.

Yeah, I went down a technical rabbit hole, but it might be interest to some folks -- pj

I wrote blog post about the patent in 2018:

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-patent-rotary-speaker/





Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 21, 2021, 07:02:28 PM
PJD, now thatís really interesting and something that never occurred to me. When you play a C note (for example) a Leslie speaker may be at 12:00 on the circle Ė or better put, at 0 degrees. If you play the 5th, a G note, the Leslie has had time, depending on the speed to rotate 45 degrees, for example. Not only do you have a different pitch sounding but you also have the potential for phase problems. Ask any speaker engineer about phase relationships between drivers. It's difficult enough to get those things right when the speaker drivers are sitting still, never mind, flying around in a circle! No wonder emulating a real Leslie is a ďguess at best!Ē

Thanks for the idea!
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: andyg on October 22, 2021, 06:18:59 PM
Phase locked tremulants have been around for many years - Allen have used them successfully on theatre and church models. Not quite the same as Yamaha's patents here. I wonder if cost is the reason why it hasn't been implemented yet?

And of course it's not just the JS sounds that suffer from non-phase-locked issues. Try the Combo Organs, the ones with vibrato sampled in. Hit a chord of C E G all in one go and it sounds OK (apart from the vibrato speed and depth not being typical of the genre). But now try building up that chord one note at a time! Sounds like a load of cats fighting! I took to editing the non-vibrato versions and adding in vibrato at my chosen depth and speed. The problem is much lessened!

Same would apply to any voice that has sampled vibrato, but if we're talking brass, saxes etc, then none of the vibratos in an ensemble would be in phase anyway, so the problem isn't really a problem.

So until they can sort out the phasing and the sampling of wind-up/down, it's back to Organ Flutes and DSP. Or buy a Hammond/Nord/KeyB......etc etc.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 22, 2021, 07:58:17 PM
Andy, you've summed up my topic perfectly. I too think that the only things of value in the Organ section are the ones where you set the footages yourself and use the DSP Rotary > Details section to play with the ramp up and down speeds. Yamaha may as well delete the other organ voices and free up some space for something useful.

The only other thing we could do to improve the organ voices with the DSP is to send it to one of the Sub Out slots, and then to a mixer with really good tone controls. My SoundCraft has treble, mid, mid sweep, and bass controls. With those, I could fatten the sound up a bit. After that, it's Hammond, Nord...like you mentioned.

Thanks so much for everyone's contribution. I learned a lot and basically solved my problem of how to use the organ voices with this new R&B band. On a very positive note, the band is completely blown away by the brass, sax, and string voices on the Genos. They say it gives the band a completely new sound and dimension :D!
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Rich Z on October 25, 2021, 02:12:08 AM
Hi Rich --

I watched your demo video and actually read your on-screen comments.  ;) A few thoughts...

The JS organ voices are really old. Some of these voices were first introduced in Tyros 3 (2008), "WhiterBars JS" (8/32/30), in particular. That voice is switching (or crossfading) between the WhiterBarsSlow and WhiterBarsFast samples. You can hear this by selecting WhiterBarsSlow (104/1/18) and then selecting WhiterBarsFast (104/0/18) in the Legacy voice category.

Both WhiterBarsSlow and WhiterBarsFast have the Leslie sampled in. That is, the Leslie effect is an integral sonic component of the base waveforms. If one crossfades a slow Leslie waveform and a fast Leslie waveform, ya get a swirling steaming heap of sonic rubbish.

The world and even Yamaha have moved on since 2008. However, Yamaha made a marketing mistake by featuring the JS organs so prominently. Manufacturers usually put the flagship piano voice at the top of the piano category -- it should be the same for drawbar organ voices.

Overall, I wouldn't bother with the JS voices. (Even complaining to Yamaha.) If you're speaking with a customer service rep at Yamaha, they are likely to respond, "That's the way the JS organ voices are expected to behave," i.e., it's not a bug; Move along, nothing to see here.

It's better to pressure Yamaha to improve the Organ Flutes engine and the rotary speaker DSP effect. They invested in the YC61 organ technology. I'd like to see an improved version of that YC technology in Genos.

I'm glad that you have passion about this issue and are raising issues with Yamaha.

All the best -- pj

Thank you.

Yes, my presumption is that the best voices would be the ones prominently displayed on the first page of the group. They would be the ones most often selected, IMHO, when I go looking for a good organ voice. I know they were the first ones I tried, and honestly, had I been at a store looking at a Genos, and with a lot of experience playing Hammond style organs, I would most likely have just passed on looking and further at the Genos and moved on to looking at something else. This could be a marketing issue that they really should address.  But honestly, it is quite discouraging to learn that this problem has been long ongoing without having been addressed long ago.  So I suspect it never will be.

As for actually playing the Genos, yeah, I can just choose to NOT select any of those JS organ voices when I want to use one, but I have noticed that in many (most?) of the styles I have been looking at that have an organ sound as one of the upper key choices, they have chosen to use one of those God awful JS organ voices.  I haven't noticed this so much in the actual style itself, and I guess I would be interested to hear that by pressing the rotary selection button if that affects the style organ voice too. Sorry, but the Genos is a big gulp to swallow and I am trying to figure things out as quickly as available time allows.  Yeah, I am retired, but Lord only knows where the time goes.  I don't know how I got anything at all done when I used to have a daytime job. But then again, just making a post like this might take me an hour or so.  :(

As for Yamaha, after generating the video and sending the YouTube link to them, as well as a link to this thread here, I haven't heard a peep out of them.  So it is possible that they are going into "ostrich" mode about it, I guess.  Quite probably someone up the chain of command just said "Oh, THAT complaint again?  Just ignore it and they will eventually go away."  IMHO.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: MadrasGiaguari on October 25, 2021, 04:19:32 PM
Dear Rich,

a decent Leslie simulator must be a big problem to solve for manufacturers. I had many Korg flagships, and the organs sound and effects was just the same as Genos: many JS sounds (without ramp up/down), poor drawbars sound, awful Leslie simulator.

Korg and Yamaha programmers have professional habit with organ and Leslie sounds. Therefore they PERFECTLY KNOW the enormous limits of their organ setup, even better than us. But the fact that both companies, the best for arrangers IMHO, have not been able so far to develop a good result in this area shows that there must be some obstacles that we cannot understand.
I want to say that they know exactly the problem and don't need to get our complaints to discover it.....

In the mean time, as I showed in the short video I posted, other company, like Hammond Suzuki, have been able to produce a much better Leslie effect, and do not use at all funny stratagems like the JS voices. Other company, like Neo Vent for instance, make just the Leslie effect, that's very effective (still a simulation.... but decent).

The question is: are Yamaha engineers working on this item? I guess the only way to find out is to wait for the next generation of arrangers. May be....

Ciao

Angelo
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: pjd on October 25, 2021, 10:58:58 PM
Yes, my presumption is that the best voices would be the ones prominently displayed on the first page of the group.

Yeah, I am retired, but Lord only knows where the time goes.  I don't know how I got anything at all done when I used to have a daytime job. But then again, just making a post like this might take me an hour or so.  :(

Hi Rich --

Thanks for reading through all of that. As to the time -- I'm retired, too, and amen!  :)

As to prominent voices, Yamaha arranger marketing seems to have this fetish about "Super Articulation." Yes, the SArt and SArt2 sax voices are great. (Love 'em.) But, not every SArt is the best and wonderful, i.e., the JS organ voices.

Some marketing guy problem told the developers to put SArt at the top of the list. El-wrong in this particular case.

Hey, hey, keep having fun -- pj
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: pjd on October 25, 2021, 11:06:34 PM
I tried to reproduce the Korg Module gospel organ on Genos. Some wins, some losses. Here's my short list of issues:


If you would like to read a longer analysis, please see:

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/critique-genos-drawbar-organ/

There are also a few old blog posts worth checking, too:

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/genos-needed-dsp-improvements/
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/genospsr-organ-registrations/
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-modx-gospel-organ/

Best to everyone -- pj
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 26, 2021, 12:35:24 AM
Interesting, guys. I'm learning the songs for this new R&B band that hired me. I have listened to the guy I'm replacing. He plays a Roland synth made in 2012, in mono through a keyboard amp. I'm running my Genos in stereo through two Bose Compacts, which blow away any keyboard amp in mono. The old Roland organs make the Genos ones sound pretty poor. I can get by with the Genos ones but I really wish the Genos had more of a Hammond sound.

Did someone post a link to good custom B3 sounds that could be loaded into the Genos through the dreaded YEM software?
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Rich Z on October 26, 2021, 12:43:29 AM
Dear Rich,

a decent Leslie simulator must be a big problem to solve for manufacturers. I had many Korg flagships, and the organs sound and effects was just the same as Genos: many JS sounds (without ramp up/down), poor drawbars sound, awful Leslie simulator.

Korg and Yamaha programmers have professional habit with organ and Leslie sounds. Therefore they PERFECTLY KNOW the enormous limits of their organ setup, even better than us. But the fact that both companies, the best for arrangers IMHO, have not been able so far to develop a good result in this area shows that there must be some obstacles that we cannot understand.
I want to say that they know exactly the problem and don't need to get our complaints to discover it.....

In the mean time, as I showed in the short video I posted, other company, like Hammond Suzuki, have been able to produce a much better Leslie effect, and do not use at all funny stratagems like the JS voices. Other company, like Neo Vent for instance, make just the Leslie effect, that's very effective (still a simulation.... but decent).

The question is: are Yamaha engineers working on this item? I guess the only way to find out is to wait for the next generation of arrangers. May be....

Ciao

Angelo

Actually, in the video that I created and provided the YouTube link to earlier, I actually tried my Korg Kronos and my Kurzweil PC3 with their organ sounds and Leslie emulations, and they were decent enough for practical use. Far, FAR better than what Yamaha has provided with those JS organ sounds.  And even more telling, the OrganFlute voices on the Genos have a pretty passable Leslie emulation too. It doesn't need to be perfect, at least for most people I guess, but it SHOULD be a lot better than what those JS Organ voices are able to muster. Yamaha obviously has the capability to fix those JS organ sounds, and I honestly can't comprehend anyone thinking they were suitable enough to use "as is", so why Yamaha hasn't addressed and fixed this issue just escapes my comprehension.  I guess I need to send them another nag-o-gram. If Yamaha thinks I will go away easily, they have another think coming.  I can be one hell of a squeaky hinge when the circumstances warrant it.

Anyway, at the very least I would like to be able to remove those JS organ voices and just replace them all with something using the same JS names that the styles would use as replacements whereby the Leslie emulation wouldn't just make my skin crawl.

Out of curiosity, does anyone here really like and use those JS Organ voices and prefer they stay as they are if given a choice?

So can those preset JS organ voices be edited in any way?  Or are they burned into Genos concrete? And if they can be edited, can that Leslie emulation on them be repaired?

I was trying my hand at setting up some files in the EXPANSION section of the Genos, and in testing, I used some styles that had one or more upper voices the Hammond style organs.  Of course I tried the Rotary switch button, and yeah, they were obviously the JS organ voices.  I did find one style that had an organ voice in the backing track, and I tried but was not able to get the rotary switch button to have any effect on them.  I guess I was surprised.  Playing something like A White Shade of Pale and only having the upper keys responding to that Leslie effect but not the backing organ chords in the style would just sound awful, IMHO.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Rich Z on October 26, 2021, 12:47:11 AM
Interesting, guys. I'm learning the songs for this new R&B band that hired me. I have listened to the guy I'm replacing. He plays a Roland synth made in 2012, in mono through a keyboard amp. I'm running my Genos in stereo through two Bose Compacts, which blow away any keyboard amp in mono. The old Roland organs make the Genos ones sound pretty poor. I can get by with the Genos ones but I really wish the Genos had more of a Hammond sound.

Did someone post a link to good custom B3 sounds that could be loaded into the Genos through the dreaded YEM software?

FYI, I just loaded up that YEM app today and got my Genos talking to my PC via wireless.  It was all relatively painless, IMHO.  I loaded up a batch of packs, told it to target the Genos, and then had them all packaged and sent to the Genos at the click of a button while I just sat back and twiddled my thumbs.  Took about 20 minutes, all total.

Easy peasy...
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 26, 2021, 02:53:20 AM
That's good to hear, Rich. I hope it's as easy for me. One of the worst words a technical writer can use when he or she is writing a set of instructions is, simply. What is simple for one, is a royal nightmare for someone else.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: pjd on October 26, 2021, 08:11:13 PM
So can those preset JS organ voices be edited in any way?  Or are they burned into Genos concrete? And if they can be edited, can that Leslie emulation on them be repaired?

Hi Rich --

Since the JS organ voices are Super Articulation, they cannot be edited by YEM. Yes, they are fixed in concrete.

As I mentioned earlier, none of the JS organ voices use the rotary speaker DSP effect. The Leslie speaker is recorded into the base waveforms, AKA "the samples." Essentially, fixed in concrete.

Just because the front panel button is labelled "Rotary SP", it does not mean that it invokes the rotary speaker DSP effect, which is dynamic (ramps up/down, etc.) The button is just a control button and in the JS case, the button selects either the slow rotary sample or the fast rotary sample.

Hope this helps -- pj

P.S. Please feel free to send my links to Yamaha. My criticism identifies what needs to be added and fixed.

Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: pjd on October 26, 2021, 08:29:30 PM
Did someone post a link to good custom B3 sounds that could be loaded into the Genos through the dreaded YEM software?

Hi Lee --

I have the Easy Sounds "Organ Session" pack installed. "Organ Session" uses the in-built rotary speaker DSP effect. The pack contains new drawbar (individual and frequently used combinations) and percussion samples.

Easy Sounds also offers "Live Organ." The "Live Organ" pack has new samples, too, but the Leslie effect is recorded into the samples. I don't have any experience with "Live Organ" and chose "Organ Session" because it employs the DSP effect (which is tweakable).

Hope this helps -- pj

https://easysoundsshop.de/en/yamaha-electronic-keyboards/yamaha-genos/7/genos-organ-session-download
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 26, 2021, 08:34:38 PM
Many thanks, PJ. I now remember seeing your post on this. I'll look into these.

Do you hear a substantial difference between the Organ Session samples and the Genos Organ Flutes with DSP?
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: pjd on October 26, 2021, 11:26:01 PM
Do you hear a substantial difference between the Organ Session samples and the Genos Organ Flutes with DSP?

Hi Lee --

Well, both Organ Session and Organ Flutes depend on the same rotary speaker DSP effects. Of course, Organ Session chooses the specific rotary speaker set-up in accord with its sound designer (Peter Krishker).

I just spent some time comparing A/B. I tried to take effects out of the comparison -- no reverb, same rotary speaker preset. I also tried to use the same drawbar registration, e.g., first three bars out.

Thus, the comparison comes down to the qualities of the Yamaha drawbars vs. the Organ Session drawbars. The difference is subtle. I would call the Genos drawbars cleaner than Organ Session. The Organ Session samples have a hint of overdrive and grit. It's like Yamaha recorded the samples direct while Organ Session mic'd a Leslie cabinet with the motors stopped. Organ Session is a little gutsier.

So, the big question -- Does Organ Session change my life?  :) I would say, "No." Organ Session is inexpensive enough, that I don't regret the purchase. I wish Organ Session had samples with C-3 -- none of the patch names suggest C-3. That would be a genuine addition to Genos which doesn't simulate the Hammond chorus/vibrato scanner. Would be great for gospel.

Would be interesting to compare against "Live Organ."

Gave old Lester K a listen, too. It's more than "Organ Session," but it might be a more lively alternative. Decisions, decisions. Lester K would be one more piece to take to the gig...

Hope this helps -- pj

Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 27, 2021, 01:13:05 AM
Great help, PJD. I appreciate your time and effort. I'm still considering a Lester G. (I rejected the Lester K because you can't control the acceleration parameter. Why is beyond me.)

I'm also toying with the idea of moving my Bose L1 Compacts that have served me well for 9 years. I'm looking at two new Bose L1 Pro 8s. They have a stronger midrange response and more power. The bass driver is more robust as well. They could be a game changer for better B3 sounds from the Genos. Thanks again.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: MadrasGiaguari on October 28, 2021, 12:44:32 PM
Dear Lee,

before purchasing Lester, I would suggest to consider Neo Instruments Ventilator II (Ventilator 2), that is much better on the high octaves (or/and with highest drawbars). Lester is ok, but on the treble organ sounds makes more a Vibrato than a real Leslie.

Here an interesting demo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxF_MkTWQYE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxF_MkTWQYE)

Ciao

Angelo
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on October 28, 2021, 01:11:57 PM
Thanks, Angelo. I'll look at the video ;).
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Rich Z on November 14, 2021, 06:03:41 AM
Hi Lee --

I have the Easy Sounds "Organ Session" pack installed. "Organ Session" uses the in-built rotary speaker DSP effect. The pack contains new drawbar (individual and frequently used combinations) and percussion samples.

Easy Sounds also offers "Live Organ." The "Live Organ" pack has new samples, too, but the Leslie effect is recorded into the samples. I don't have any experience with "Live Organ" and chose "Organ Session" because it employs the DSP effect (which is tweakable).

Hope this helps -- pj

https://easysoundsshop.de/en/yamaha-electronic-keyboards/yamaha-genos/7/genos-organ-session-download

I've been listening this "Organ Session" offering, and I really like what I hear. I am using headphones and it appears to use a panning technique for the rotary effect, which is quite nice. What is interesting is that the Leslie tone cabinet ALWAYS has the speakers rotating, and they are never stopped when powered up. They are either slowly rotating, or at a faster speed when called upon. The panning effect seems to emulate what your ears hear from a real Leslie with that upper speaker basically transmitting the sound at one ear and then the other to produce a rotation effect.  I didn't really care much for the "Live Organ" offering.  Seemed like too abrupt of a transition between the slow speed and high speed rotation.

Unfortunately the website is in German, so I can't make heads nor tails out of what they are describing there. I have been looking for a link for an English translation, but so far haven't found it.  I would like to purchase it if I knew exactly what I would be purchasing.  Does this have to be installed via YEM?  I am assuming the install instructions would be in German too, so that wouldn't help me much.  :(

Anyone see a link to an English translation on that site so I could place an order if this seems like what I want? 
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Rich Z on November 14, 2021, 06:22:18 AM
Ah! I found that little button for the English translation!!
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Rich Z on November 14, 2021, 06:35:51 AM
BTW, this is quite nice! -> https://easysoundsshop.de/en/kapro/164/kapro-legendary-tonewheel-organ-download
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 14, 2021, 12:21:32 PM
Yes, very impressive Rich. Sadly, they don't offer many demo tracks. What they do offer does sounds more grainy and authentic than the Genos samples.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Rich Z on November 15, 2021, 04:37:46 PM
Arghh, I'm not sure about buying from that EasySoundsShop place.  They are charging everyone that VAT tax regardless of whether the purchasers are required to pay it or not. Sort of feel like they are gouging us customers who don't need to pay it.  Sort of rubs me the wrong way, to be honest.  I might get over it, or I might not.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Joe H on November 15, 2021, 08:04:31 PM
Buyers in the US don't pay the VAT... only those in Europe pay.  If in doubt, contact them to confirm.

Joe H
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Rich Z on November 15, 2021, 10:12:29 PM
I was in doubt, since all of their prices indicate "Prices incl. VAT"

So I asked: "Since I am located in the USA, do you provide prices minus the VAT for a purchase I am considering? I believe I am not liable for that tax in the USA."

And they replied: "We decided to build our pricing based on a mixed calculation with the goal that every customer around the world pays the same price."

Just rubs me the wrong way. I guess I just recoil from the idea of paying any tax I am really not legally obligated to do so and some company wants to charge it to me anyway. Just me, I suppose.

So I have to decide whether I can live without their products or not. It is bad enough that I would have to spend my money to correct a deficiency in a Yamaha product, but this VAT thing is akin to rubbing salt in a wound, IMHO.

Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 16, 2021, 02:04:38 PM
Quote
And they replied: "We decided to build our pricing based on a mixed calculation with the goal that every customer around the world pays the same price."
That is shady. We have a similar tax in Canada called HST. It is 13%. I believe that when a visitor to our country makes a purchase, they receive a rebate for the tax. I don't know how this company can accurately calculate their prices so that everyone is treated fairly. There are just too many tax structures around the world to make this fair for everyone.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Joe H on November 16, 2021, 02:09:35 PM
It sounds like Easy Sounds has changed their pricing policy.  I have bought several packs from them in the past and wasn't charged the VAT.

 :(

Joe H
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 16, 2021, 02:13:51 PM
Agreed, Joe. I too have bought products out of the U.K. and were never charged the VAT. It sounds like the old shell game to me.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: EileenL on November 16, 2021, 03:31:56 PM
Have you tried any of these Lee

https://www.cms-sounddesign.com/freeware/organ-freeware/
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 16, 2021, 03:36:47 PM
No I haven't Eileen. I shall. Many thanks!
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Joe H on November 16, 2021, 03:51:11 PM
It sounds like Easy Sounds has changed their pricing policy.  I have bought several packs from them in the past and wasn't charged the VAT.

 :(

Joe H

I sent an email to Hans.  He gave a reasonable explanation. Since their packs are strictly a download, he explained that some people in Europe claimed to be in another part of the world/country to get around the VAT.  So they had to implement the new policy of charging everyone the same price that includes the VAT.

There are "cheaters" everywhere!

 >:(

Joe H
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Bill on November 16, 2021, 04:55:10 PM
I think there is possibly some misunderstanding here.

If someone lists the UK or EU  they are entitled to purchase items without paying the VAT (providing they show their passport).  However they will need to declare the item when returning to their home country.

Purchases ONLINE are different - the seller is expected to charge the appropriate TAX for the purchaser's country.  For many small sellers this is quite difficult to work out what rate to apply.  The use of a VPN (to evade paying the appraise tax) is making things even more difficult for sellers to stay inboard to the law.

Bill
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 16, 2021, 05:47:16 PM
Have you tried any of these Lee
https://www.cms-sounddesign.com/freeware/organ-freeware/
Hi Eileen. I downloaded an organ voice. It is a .ppf file format. Do I use the YEM software to install this on my Genos? If so, which version do you recommend? I believe some are having major issues with the newest version. Thanks.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Rich Z on November 16, 2021, 09:35:10 PM
I sent an email to Hans.  He gave a reasonable explanation. Since their packs are strictly a download, he explained that some people in Europe claimed to be in another part of the world/country to get around the VAT.  So they had to implement the new policy of charging everyone the same price that includes the VAT.

There are "cheaters" everywhere!

 >:(

Joe H

I am wondering what their legal LIABILITY is for making that sort of a determination about where the buyer actually resides. They collect the VAT tax, where appropriate, and pass that tax onto the taxing agency, don't they?  But in this case, with evidence that the buyer was not liable for paying the VAT tax, what do they do with that money collected?  If someone claims to be outside of Europe's taxing authority, how much effort are they legally liable for to try to prove otherwise?

Sounds to me that their policy is kind of a "guilty even if proven innocent" sort of arrangement concerning tax liability for Europe.

I have bought items from Europe before, even some gardening tools that I could not get within the USA, and I never had to pay VAT before.  I guess I am not going to change that now, and will do without their products.  It is not going to come out of my pocket just to make things easier for them figuring out their taxing requirements.

Oh well, their choice on how they run their own business, I guess.  I decline to participate.

KApro has a really nice organ voice offering. Do they sell through anyone else but Easy Sounds? I wasn't able to find much searching online except for a facebook page.  And I deleted my facebook account a year or so ago.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Rich Z on November 16, 2021, 10:30:41 PM
Hi Eileen. I downloaded an organ voice. It is a .ppf file format. Do I use the YEM software to install this on my Genos? If so, which version do you recommend? I believe some are having major issues with the newest version. Thanks.

Which one(s) did you like?  The couple of demo videos I watched and listened to didn't tell me much about the rotary transitions.

I would hate to have to use YEM just to install all the expansion modules to really demo them.  :(
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 16, 2021, 10:36:31 PM
Hi Rich,

I downloaded just the one. It's the CMS-Hammond-B3-Freeware.ppf. That may not tell you anything. I'm not really enthused about using the YEM software. I wish Yamaha would ditch it and design something much simpler, that is, less Japan and more America. I'm not a big Microsoft fan but once you learn their systems...
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Mike2 on November 16, 2021, 10:43:44 PM
Why all this time on organ sounds.  I can't figure it out. This is a Genos keyboard, the best in the world. I thought organ music was dead!  I mean when organs were the instrument of sound, maybe yes, organ players had a point. But give us keyboard players some credit.  Who would in there right minds want to hear organ sounds. Not being disrespectful to those organ players. But if you love organ sounds that much, buy an organ...not an instrument like a Genos, which does so many things, which sound better than your vintage organs. I just cannot see the relationship between an organ and a Genos Keyboard. It's like apple and oranges...like the old saying goes. Most people on this forum seem so hung up on anything, that has nothing to do with a Genos Keyboard.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 16, 2021, 11:36:51 PM
Mike2, I respect your opinion and you are right about the Genos being a stellar instrument for so many other genres that require voices other than organs.

On the other hand, when you play in an R&B band you need the best B3s you can get. After shelling out $6,500 for the Genos, there isn't much money left for buying a dedicated organ type keyboard - especially with nearly 2 years of drought due to Covid. Besides, why should we? For that kind of money, the thing better shine in ALL areas. The Genos organs aren't terrible but they could be better. The point of this topic was to see if that was possible - not to just stop playing all music that requires an organ voice.

Perhaps those who listen to the crappy thump music "manufactured" today have no use for organ sounds. Meanwhile, those who play real music like Blues, Jazz, Country, and R&B beg to differ.

As for your comment, "Most people on this forum seem so hung up on anything, that has nothing to do with a Genos Keyboard"...you're out of line.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: EileenL on November 16, 2021, 11:57:39 PM
Hi Lee,
 Yes you save the ppf file in the YEM. I still use version 7 as 8 works much slower. Why not download a few of there different sounds and make a pack to ;load into your keyboard.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Rich Z on November 17, 2021, 12:48:15 AM
Why all this time on organ sounds.  I can't figure it out. This is a Genos keyboard, the best in the world. I thought organ music was dead!  I mean when organs were the instrument of sound, maybe yes, organ players had a point. But give us keyboard players some credit.  Who would in there right minds want to hear organ sounds. Not being disrespectful to those organ players. But if you love organ sounds that much, buy an organ...not an instrument like a Genos, which does so many things, which sound better than your vintage organs. I just cannot see the relationship between an organ and a Genos Keyboard. It's like apple and oranges...like the old saying goes. Most people on this forum seem so hung up on anything, that has nothing to do with a Genos Keyboard.

Well, heck, instead of buying a Genos and then only buying a Hammond B3, why stop there and also buy a grand piano, multiple types of electric pianos, upright pianos,  saxophones, multiple types of brass and woodwinds, guitars, drums and every other instrument that most people bought the Genos to emulate in their playing?   After all, aren't all those instruments just as dead now since electronics has replaced them (apparently in your opinion)?  You DO know that the organ voices in the Genos can be utilized as accompaniment in the styles on the Genos, don't you? And LOTS of songs in the past used organs a LOT, did they not?

Seriously fella, just what is the Genos supposed to be FOR, if not to emulate all those various instruments while playing styles that USE those instruments in the renditions that the players want to have?  You would be happy with a Fender guitar sounding like a ukelele or a banjo? A saxophone sounding like just buzzing your lips through a PVC pipe? Drums that sound like someone beating on a 55 gallon drum and trashcan lids?  Well, some of us who know what a real Hammond organ through a Leslie tone cabinet really sounds like want an expensive instrument like the Genos professing to provide such sounds being authentic to actually do so.

Sorry, if you can't "figure this out".  But maybe, just maybe, the fault isn't with us.  Just sayin'.

Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 17, 2021, 01:13:16 AM
Hi Lee,
 Yes you save the ppf file in the YEM. I still use version 7 as 8 works much slower. Why not download a few of there different sounds and make a pack to ;load into your keyboard.
Thanks, Eileen. I'll do that. There are a few other good organ voices on that site I would like to try.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Rich Z on November 17, 2021, 02:04:19 AM
FYI, I used YEM v 2.7 with the wireless interface and that seemed to work well, as far as I can tell.  Can't say I would want to do that just to add one or two voices or other modules at a time, however.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: EileenL on November 17, 2021, 11:52:20 AM
It is very easy to do this and if it gives you the voices you want it is worth taking a few minutes  doing it. I have made up several packs this way including the SFX ones which are good for certain music and occasions.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: pjd on November 18, 2021, 12:32:03 AM
IK Multimedia has the Hammond B-3X virtual instrument app on sale through December 7, 2021. IK partnered with Hammond.

I gave in to temptation.  :)  First impression is "Wow!" Warning, it is a price-y app, but still cheaper than the Mac/PC versions. Would love to have this level of emulation on Genos natively.

Of course, this means MIDI'ing an iPad to your instrument, mixing audio, etc.

Hope this helps -- pj

https://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/hammondb3xipad/
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: soryt on November 18, 2021, 12:34:57 PM
A lot cheaper app for the I Pad is the Galileo Organ app ,i have it tested and used it on the Genos . it sounds very good and a lot of good Rotary effects and presets
But nothing beats a real drawbar keyboard in use like the Hammond, Nord , and alot of other brands , avery nice  and good alternative is the Crumar Module > https://www.crumar.it/?a=showproduct&b=38

http://yonac.com/galileo2/index.php

Soneg
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 18, 2021, 01:21:37 PM
PJ, the price is $59, which I find reasonable. Do you know if it works on Samsung Androids? They specify iPad in the literature but also mention "mobile iOS tablet." Can I assume it's for Android as well?

How do we MIDI from an Android to the Genos? There must be a special cable. Another problem is, I need my Android for my charts. Toggling between the Hammond emulator and charts would be a nightmare in a real show.

I wish I had put out the extra cash for an iPad. I find the Android touch screen very slow in comparison to iPad. You sometimes need to tap or swipe two or three times. I've never had to do that with an iPad!

Thanks.

Edit
I may have answered my own question. From their FAQ page:

Will my app purchases transfer between iOS, Android, and Mac/Windows versions?
It is not possible to transfer an app purchase or any in-app purchases between various versions of our apps on different platforms such as iOS (iPhone/iPad), Android (phones/tablets), or Mac/Windows computers.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: MadrasGiaguari on November 18, 2021, 07:07:29 PM
Dear Pjd,

I followed your link to IK Multimedia, and surfed their very interesting site, listening to the demo of the Hammond B-3X software.

I was completely astonished! The quality of sounds is unbelievable, and the Leslie simulation (including the ramp up/down effect) is the best among various available clones.
Consider that I had a real Hammond (L122R) and a real Leslie cabinet, and actually I'm using an excellent Hammond-Suzuki module and controller (Hammond XM2+ XM2c) as for the demo I posted in this discussion.
But what I heard from IK Multimedia goes IMHO over any clone I experienced. And for a very reasonable price too.

Two things are not very clear to me from the demo and specifications, but I'll get in touch with IK Multimedia guys next week: may drawbars and Leslie speed be controlled by touch screen? what additional devices one needs to connect the tablet to Genos? besides iOS (Apple) and Windows, there is a version for Android?

Thank you so much for this precious info  :D

Ciao

Angelo
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: pjd on November 18, 2021, 07:17:07 PM
Hi Lee --

Sorry to say, it's only iPad/IOS right now. I looked under IK's list of Android apps, and the Hammond B-3X is not listed.

My knowledge of Android is out-of-date, but Android MIDI support tended to lag IOS. Apple has some business practices that drive me crazy, but I went with iPad as it seems to be favored for music making apps.

One drawback that I've hit so far -- the B-3X seems to pay attention to only one Bluetooth MIDI device at a time. So, I get either my Korg Microkey Air keyboard controller or I get the Boss/Roland wireless MIDI expression pedal. I may need to get yet another app like Audiobus to solve this issue. Korg's Module Pro app gets it right, receiving and merging MIDI from both the keyboard and the expression pedal. I'm trying to eliminate as many cables as I can...

All the best -- pj
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: pjd on November 18, 2021, 07:30:51 PM
Two things are not very clear to me from the demo and specifications, but I'll get in touch with IK Multimedia guys next week: may drawbars and Leslie speed be controlled by touch screen? what additional devices one needs to connect the tablet to Genos? besides iOS (Apple) and Windows, there is a version for Android?

Hi Angelo --

No Android version, I'm afraid.

Yes, drawbars and rotary speed can be controlled by touching the screen. Rotary speed responds to modulation (MIDI CC#0) right out of the box. The B-3X app has a settings screen where the user can define the MIDI CC# for rotary speed and all of the drawbars. So, it should be possible to send drawbar control messages from Genos. I haven't tried it since I'm experimenting with a wireless rig.

As to Genos connections, one could go either wired or wireless. Wired connection needs an iPad USB interface and a USB cable. Or, if you have a 5-pin DIN MIDI interface for the tablet, connect via MIDI cable. Wireless connection needs a Bluetooth interface on the Genos side like the Yamaha UD-BT01 or MD-BT01.

Hope this info helps.

The sound knocked me out. Jim Alfredson is one of my favorite demonstrators:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPn61Hmy1CU

Also, Katsunori Ujiie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynYIrs72gFg
https://blog.musictrack.jp/posts/9530

Wish I could play like those guys.  :o ;D

-- pj
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: sugarplumsss on November 22, 2021, 09:27:10 PM
To Lee or anyone else

if you know what a real B3 Leslie... very very few substitutes will satisfy.

I've come to accept this.

I HAVE a little used Italian Crumar ( about 7-8 years old )  2 manual organ clone, that players have in the past raved about.
I approximately used on a gig maybe 25 times
I have not used it since
It is in the original gig bag with wheels from Crumar

Im not a techie... I just gave up on this board.
I forgot the initial money I spent but around $3000
plus I bought and NEVER USED their leslie efx box - retailing for $400
and never used bass pedals

I want to sell it all
Make me an offer

Crumar Mojo Classic Dual Manual Organ






Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 22, 2021, 10:06:24 PM
To Lee or anyone else
if you know what a real B3 Leslie... very very few substitutes will satisfy.
I've come to accept this.
I HAVE a little used Italian Crumar ( about 7-8 years old )  2 manual organ clone, that players have in the past raved about.
I approximately used on a gig maybe 25 times
I have not used it since
It is in the original gig bag with wheels from Crumar
Im not a techie... I just gave up on this board.
I forgot the initial money I spent but around $3000
plus I bought and NEVER USED their leslie efx box - retailing for $400
and never used bass pedals

I want to sell it all
Make me an offer

Crumar Mojo Classic Dual Manual Organ
Thanks for replying. I'm in Canada and it would likely cost a ton of money to ship it here. The one thing forums should display is the country where members reside. That way, we know what pertains to us. Thanks again!
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: sugarplumsss on November 23, 2021, 03:49:03 AM
I donít know if this unrelated question belongs in this thread
Let me know

I own t4 for ten years. A real love hate was going
As time has passed Iíve grown used to it

I played a genos and was not overwhelmed

Can you give some impressions ( remembering this is hardly one single Instrument, but many instruments - thus I say. Please Provide multiple impressions ) as a former tyros guy now playing genos

Iím mainly interested in the tonal timbral
impressions the strings, ac pianos, elec pianos , basses, guitars brass etc etc etc
Have made on you.
Thanks
 
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 23, 2021, 01:16:49 PM
I donít know if this unrelated question belongs in this thread
Let me know

I own t4 for ten years. A real love hate was going
As time has passed Iíve grown used to it

I played a genos and was not overwhelmed

Can you give some impressions ( remembering this is hardly one single Instrument, but many instruments - thus I say. Please Provide multiple impressions ) as a former tyros guy now playing genos

Iím mainly interested in the tonal timbral
impressions the strings, ac pianos, elec pianos , basses, guitars brass etc etc etc
Have made on you.
Thanks
Hi Sugarplumsss,

Many of us played dual manual organs before being introduced to the arranger style keyboard. When we took delivery of these organs, we plugged them in and they sounded great. The designers had optimized the sound for the voices that were included with the organ, to match it's speaker system. It was a true ďplug and playĒ instrument. Then the arranger keyboard came out in the mid-80s. It was very similar. You plugged it in and the sound was very good through the little included speakers. As time went on, companies refined the voices and added audio processing. By the time the Tyros was released, arrangers had evolved into near professional-level keyboards. The Genos certainly did. What does all this mean? A Genos is ďplayableĒ right out of the box, just like our good old dual manual organs but it doesnít necessarily ďsound its best.Ē The voicings and samples have evolved to unprecedented levels. You must ask yourself:
Answering these questions is how you will shape the Genos sound to your liking. If you play the Genos over the optional Yamaha speakers, you may not be very impressed. Some users claim they are excellent while others say they are a waste of money. When you first heard a Genos, what speakers were used? Who played it?

I have always played my Genos over very expensive speakers. I own two Bose performance speakers, the L1 Pro 8 models. In my studio, I play the Genos over two Yamaha HS-8 studio monitors. Neither of these speakers are low cost. They are high-end professional level speakers. However, even when playing my Genos over these speakers it doesnít stop there. I still must use the internal tone controls, effects, EQ , and other tools to ďshapeĒ the sound how I want for the music I play. This is where the Genos really shines. They have so many presets for all these sound shaping tools but if you donít like what Yamaha did, you can modify those tools to your liking.

I suspect you heard the Genos in its raw form. It sounded all right but didnít impress you enough to make you buy it. Out of the box, the Genos sounds like a mild improvement over the Tyros 5. When you start to deep dive the sounds, thatís when things really change. You can shape the sounds and overall output to blow the Tyros 5 away. It's a lot of work but worth it. After my first few shows with my Genos, I had a lot of people come up to me and ask what kind of keyboard I was playing. That only happened once with my Tyros 5. I was playing my Genos through two Bose L1 Compacts (not nearly as good as the Pro 8 models) and a 15 inch subwoofer of my own design.

So, thereís no easy answer because there are so many variables. I have always dealt with a music store chain in Canada that allows you to buy any instrument on a 30 day approval. Thatís the way all music stores should operate. You can't sit in a music store for an hour and assess a Genos when there's all kinds of noise going on around you. You must demonstrate it in your own environment. If you ever get the chance to do that, Iím sure youíll be impressed with what you hear after you play with the sound settings. If you ever get to that point, we can help you shape the sounds. Many of us have done the homework and are glad to share what works for us.

Hope this helps :).
- Lee
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: sugarplumsss on November 25, 2021, 04:29:37 PM
What store is selling Genos - price point- wait time ( supply chain related question )
?

You are clearly saying Genos is superior. I hear you. You also started this thread about the fabled B3 Leslie.

You are saying Genos is better, but I assume not so much the B3 family of sounds.

That's my assumption; this is why I wanted more specific sounds/ instruments, that you affirm are better than T4  T5.

I had previously heard ( this was over 2 years ago ) that the Genos strings did not overwhelm some users. Maybe that phrase, "some users" , is the phrase we can use anytime! Meaning.. a particular person can be found who would not like the EP's. Another not impressed with the Genos Ac pianos. etc etc.
So back to you... which families of instruments, truly impress you over previous Tyros?

Eg. I heard the drums are clearly superior.
$6000+ is a lot of money. And these questions are about money versus aesthetic satisfaction.

Are you cool giving quick opinion on each family of instruments?
EP'
Clav
Ac Piano
Strings
Drums
Drum patterns
Guitars AC
Electric

Then there is this
When playing all the right hand sounds, say, in a solo where you seek a large sound,, versus a solo sound. eg, Keyboards layered with a synth, versus a solo synth.. or a big band sound versus a solo sax or trumpet

Playing the t4 in the larger ensemble mode, I get this feeling of slight distorted sound, as if the t4 is being asked to do more than it is really comfortable at.

I was hoping the Genos would better accommodate those tutti type ensembles.

Thank you for responding to my earlier questions.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Joe H on November 30, 2021, 01:42:35 AM
FYI for anyone interested... Easy Sounds is have a 30% off sale starting November 30th through December 2nd.   So if you don't like paying the VAT, this sale should eliminate that cost.  Easy Sounds accepts payment with PayPal so no credit card info is required.  I think there are demo MP3s of the Organ pack(s)

Joe H
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on November 30, 2021, 02:20:40 AM
Thanks, Joe!
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Rich Z on November 30, 2021, 09:01:37 PM
I can't recall if this was mentioned before, and I am too lazy to read through the entire thread to find out, but this is an interesting writeup about this Yamaha Leslie emulation problem.  -> http://sandsoftwaresound.net/tag/yamaha-genos/

Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: pjd on December 01, 2021, 12:24:06 AM
Thanks, Rich. I hope Yamaha gives attention to B-3 organ improvements.

I since purchased and tried IK Multimedia B-3X. It puts Korg Module to shame! I haven't had time to make a similar comparison re: B-3X vs. Genos, but many of the same comments and limitations would apply.

Take care -- pj

Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Oxford1035 on December 01, 2021, 01:36:30 AM
Has anyone bought the Easysound organ sessions? How much space would it take up on YEM pack?

Kind regards,

Russ
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Rich Z on December 01, 2021, 10:31:25 PM
FYI for anyone interested... Easy Sounds is have a 30% off sale starting November 30th through December 2nd.   So if you don't like paying the VAT, this sale should eliminate that cost.  Easy Sounds accepts payment with PayPal so no credit card info is required.  I think there are demo MP3s of the Organ pack(s)

Joe H

Hmm, thanks for the heads up!  I have to admit, I am tempted....
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: pjd on December 02, 2021, 07:37:16 PM
Has anyone bought the Easysound organ sessions? How much space would it take up on YEM pack?

Hi Russ --

The Organ Session PPI install file is about 106MBytes. The documentation states 100MBytes of new samples.

Hope this helps -- pj
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: overover on December 02, 2021, 09:07:30 PM
Has anyone bought the Easysound organ sessions? How much space would it take up on YEM pack?

Kind regards,

Russ

Hi Russ,

the Easy Sounds "Organ Session" Pack takes up 103 MB in Expansion Voice Wave Memory (plus the 20 MB that are required once by the system).


Best regards,
Chris
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Oxford1035 on December 04, 2021, 02:41:44 AM
Many thanks PJ and Chris,

l've bought it, just need to find time to add it to my other packs now.

Kind regards,

Russ
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Amwilburn on December 05, 2021, 12:07:22 AM
I can't recall if this was mentioned before, and I am too lazy to read through the entire thread to find out, but this is an interesting writeup about this Yamaha Leslie emulation problem.  -> http://sandsoftwaresound.net/tag/yamaha-genos/

That's literally pjd's website, who's already replying as quickly as he can in thread  ;D
And yes, Paul *really* delves into the hardware, like no other!


Incidentally whey I purchased the Live Organ pack from Easy Sounds, they hadn't released the "Organ Sessions" version, hence why I only mentioned the Live Organ pack from them at the top of this thread. But yeah, even back then, what I heard from them was fairly impressive (although I'm absolutely blown away by the iPad B3 app Paul found from IK)

Mark
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Rich Z on December 05, 2021, 01:55:30 AM
I actually did go ahead and purchase a few packs from Easy Sounds since they had that sale in effect.  Haven't gotten around to trying them out yet, however.  One of them I purchased was the "KApro Legendary Tonewheel Organ" pack. Little on the pricey side but it has some pretty impressive demos for it. I really liked the Leslie transition effects provided. It comes with an install manual that I have been browsing through, when I came upon this little nugget:

Quote
4 Registration Banks, which were used for the recording of the four demo tracks,
  • "Gimme The Proof" with six (6) Registrations
[used for the Funk demo "Gimme The Proof"],
  • "Hush" with two (2) Registrations
[used for the Rock demo "Hush"; together with an external rotary effects unit],
  • "Nickel And A Nail" with six (6) Registrations
[used for the Blues demo "Nickel And A Nail"],
  • "With A Little Help From My Friends" with six (6) Registrations
[used for the Rock demo "With A Little Help From My Friends"; together with an external rotary effects unit]
[/list]

Emphasis added.

Well, WTH?  So two of the most impressive demos actually are using an external rotary effect unit????  Honestly I am not sure what to expect when I finally do install this pack.  Besides being relatively complicated to install, if that install guide is accurate, I believe it will use up something like 500 mb of limited expansion RAM. It would be worth it if what I can get from the pack is just like the demo tracks I listened to.  But if not...  I sure as heck do hope that those demos were not misleading and I got sucker punched.  I bought this package specifically because of what I heard in those demo tracks and the two in question were what really caught my ear with the Leslie tone cabinet effect ramping up and down in the transitions.  Ah well, we will see, I guess. Wish there was a way to actually listen to these packs without going through the process of installing them via YEM.  Or is there?
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: DerekA on December 05, 2021, 11:43:11 AM
Rich, sorry to sound pessiistic but - the only way you can get the leslie speed up / slow down effect is via a DSP or an external processor. Expansion packs never include updated DSP. So, the sound you're liking is either coming from an inbuilt Genos DSP or an external processor. It's not coming from a new sample.
Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: Lee Batchelor on December 05, 2021, 07:52:09 PM
Once again, thanks to all who contributed to my post. There are two elements involved: the Genos organ samples and the DSP effects.
Here are my conclusions:
I'm going to try working with the onboard sounds in the Genos and see if an external effects unit is any better. My local music store will let me buy one and trial it for 30 days - no conditions.

Further thoughts?

Edit
Our good friend, Soryt posted a comparison of the Genos organ sounds out of the box versus using the Lester K effects unit. I think the Lester K makes a big difference. I'm sure many of you have listened to his comparison. Thanks, Soryt!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FHdjg5A7wE

Title: Re: Organ sounds severe limitation
Post by: MadrasGiaguari on December 10, 2021, 05:16:33 PM
Dear friends,

I inquired IK Multimedia Support team about Hammond B3X, and here is their answer:

"Hello ANGELO,
Thanks for your patience while we got back to you.

No, Hammond B3X is not available for Android.

The app can be controlled via the touch screen on the iPad; if you are asking regarding the desktop version you can control this via mouse or midi controller. "

Ciao

Angelo