When I first got my Genos a week or so ago, when I wanted to try out the organ sounds, I was particularly interested in trying the White Shade of Pale version (I can't remember exactly what it is named at the moment). When I tried the leslie effect, well YUCH! My hands actually recoiled away from the keyboard. Sounded more like tremolo than any sort of leslie tone cabinet effect I have ever heard. Several other organ selections sound the same lame way, even though there are others that implement the leslie cabinet effect pretty well. Other organ sounds post a funky message across the screen saying that effect isn't available. Wonder who ever thought THAT was a good idea? How did these snafus get by Yamaha's quality control dept? Those sounds are just broken, in my opinion, and need to be fixed in an update. No one who has ever played a Hammond B3 would ever seriously want to use them, as is, imho. Quite honestly, the thought did cross my mind that if there were a lot of screwups in the other sounds like these organ sounds, I would seriously have considered just boxing up the Genos and sending it back.You're right on the money, Rich. The organ voice to which you refer for the song, A Whiter Shade Of Pale is appropriately named WhiteBars JS. I assume the JS refers to the famous organist Jimmy Smith. It is in the so-called new and improved S.Art group. Somebody at Yamaha completely dropped the ball in thinking that a Leslie speaker can instantly ramp up from slow to fast speed!! It's physically, impossible to force a speaker driver to spin up that fast.
Or am I just missing a real easy fix to them while keeping them in situ in the sounds selection list?
So it's not a case of dropping the ball here - the non-DSP version just cannot support speed up / slow down and so isn't really suitable for when you really need that. You have to use an organ voice with DSP to get that.Fully agreed but how a company as brilliant as Yamaha can blatantly declare that Leslie speakers are "instant on and instant off" is beyond me. That's just plain nonsense, if not laziness on the part of the developers. That's dropping the ball.
I am surproised to hear this question from a experienced keyboard player after so long working with Genos .Seems an unnecessary added comment
I am surprised to hear this question from a experienced keyboard player after so long working with Genos.I'm not surprised because after all these years of using arrangers from the PSR 630 all the way to the Genos, I haven't needed stellar B3 samples that often. During those times, I also owned a few Yamaha Motif synths and Nord keyboards, which fit my needs at the time. The Genos is lacking in comparison - no big surprise though. The Genos is my only remaining keyboard at this time.
Fully agreed but how a company as brilliant as Yamaha can blatantly declare that Leslie speakers are "instant on and instant off" is beyond me. That's just plain nonsense, if not laziness on the part of the developers. That's dropping the ball.
If the voice has a Leslie effect, it needs to have variable ramp up and down speeds. I still don't see why Yamaha overlooked this VERY important feature when they got everything else so accurate. This is basic!
**********************************************
Organ Flutes preset data (example settings)
**********************************************
Yamaha presets: Vibrato is OFF in all cases
Preset Drawbars VOL RESP 4' 2 2/3' 2' LENG Rotary effect
-------------- ----------- --- ---- --- ------ --- ---- -------------
OrganFlutes 78 6600 000 8 0 8 0 0 6 DUAL ROT BRT
USDSmile 87 4323 468 8 0 0 0 0 0 DUAL ROT BRT
ReggaeBars 70 0000 008 8 0 0 0 0 0 DUAL ROT BRT
WarmTheatre 80 0605 000 8 0 0 0 0 0 DUAL ROT WRM
OrganPops 70 8000 000 8 0 8 0 0 8 DUAL ROT BRT
RockOrgan 65 5444 644 8 0 0 0 0 0 DUAL ROT BRT
SoulPercussion 70 0000 530 8 0 0 7 0 0 DUAL ROT BRT
GospelTruth 87 6000 568 8 0 0 0 0 0 DUAL ROT BRT
PadOrgan 00 8520 000 8 0 0 0 0 0 DUAL ROT WRM
FullOrgan 88 7677 788 8 0 0 0 0 0 DUAL ROT BRT
StringBars 48 0787 532 8 0 0 0 0 0 DUAL ROT BRT
LatinSpin 70 0003 443 8 0 0 0 0 0 DUAL ROT BRT
ShadyBars 68 8600 000 8 0 0 0 0 7 DUAL ROT BRT
FunkOrgan 83 5035 788 8 0 0 0 0 7 DUAL ROT BRT
BalladOrgan 86 7300 000 8 0 0 0 0 7 DUAL ROT WRM
RichBars 63 8457 530 8 0 0 0 0 0 DUAL ROT BRT
TrumpetBars 06 0786 540 8 0 0 0 0 0 DUAL ROT BRT
SoulBars 80 0050 578 8 0 0 0 0 0 DUAL ROT BRT
ClariBars 08 0080 760 8 0 0 0 0 0 DUAL ROT BRT
JazzSquabble 80 0008 888 8 0 0 0 0 0 DUAL ROT BRT
SmithPlus 88 8800 000 8 3 0 4 0 0 DUAL ROT WRM
Simmerin 83 0000 378 8 0 0 0 0 0 DUAL ROT WRM
MellowDee 80 4600 000 8 4 0 0 0 0 DUAL ROT BRT
Shoutin 66 8848 588 8 4 0 0 0 0 DUAL ROT WRM
WhistleStop 88 8000 008 8 3 0 0 0 0 DUAL ROT WRM
WhiterShade 68 8600 000 8 0 4 0 0 8 DUAL ROT WRM
Hope Yamaha puts the YC61 in GENOS 2
Here is a demo
Yamaha YC61 or even better Viscount Legend
Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzsr2hrjmQE
When's Genos2 coming?
// Pierre
Reminds me of a uk 60s tv show , Michael Miles the front man to Take Your Pick the same organ sound when box 13 was opened with a massive key and either as booby prize or a holiday abroad maybe in the box!! ;D da, dddda da daaaaaaaaaaah!! :P ::)
I'm not sure how to read the red values in the my sample chart. For example,
Preset Drawbars VOL RESP 4' 2 2/3' 2' LENG Rotary effect
OrganFlutes 78 6600 000 8 0 8 0 0 6 DUAL ROT BRT
Dear friends,
I agree with disappointment for the "J-Voices", as they cannot be used to simulate a B3 with Leslie.
Nevertheless it is true that working on "plane" organ voices and Rotary effect we may get something acceptable within the musical atmosphere given by the accompaniment.
In this sense, I like to share with you a short YouTube video I made with Clavinova CVP309, playing my own song named "Friendship". As you will see I had in mind B3 and Leslie. Of course I could do the same (and better) on my Genos.
Sometimes an example can say much more than words... (in any case, the expression pedal helps a lot!)
That sounded absolutely amazing Angelo. You are obviously a very accomplished organist so I cannot even dream of sounding like that but,
it will encourage me and many others to make more effort to achieve a more realistic Organ sound such as yours.
I still agree with many other posters that Yamaha should have done this work for us and included such a preset in the Genos.
I have still not heard Yamaha's top demonstrators sounding as though they were playing a real organ as you have just done so very disappointing for Yamaha.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gao2YdjHjUM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gao2YdjHjUM)
Thank you, :)
Angelo
For some reason, Yamaha decided to add a 2' percussion setting, too.
Dear friends,Great playing and voice creation, Angelo! Many thanks for your time and efforts.
I agree with disappointment for the "J-Voices", as they cannot be used to simulate a B3 with Leslie.
Nevertheless it is true that working on "plane" organ voices and Rotary effect we may get something acceptable within the musical atmosphere given by the accompaniment.
In this sense, I like to share with you a short YouTube video I made with Clavinova CVP309, playing my own song named "Friendship". As you will see I had in mind B3 and Leslie. Of course I could do the same (and better) on my Genos.
Sometimes an example can say much more than words... (in any case, the expression pedal helps a lot!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gao2YdjHjUM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gao2YdjHjUM)
Thank you, :)
Angelo
Hope Yamaha puts the YC61 in GENOS 2 or even better Viscount Legend.
When's Genos2 coming?
// Pierre
Hello,Funny you should mention that. As as owner of a YC61 which also has a poor Leslie emulation (believe it or not), fixing that emulation has been THE main subject of discussion in the Yamaha synth forum since the YC61 came out in the spring of 2020. Still nothing from Yamaha.
An update from Yamaha could probably fix this Leslie malfunction thing.
Regards
Ron
I think you are being a bit dramatic, Rich.
The organ flutes voices, with the rotary DSP, provide exactly what you want and are designed for people who need a proper Leslie simulation.
The JS versions should be seen as simplified versions, with either fast or slow baked in.
Can I just ask, have you actually tried using the Organ Flutes + DSP version of the voices - as opposed to the JS version? And tweaking the DSP settings?That's exactly what I do. I use the Organ Flutes as a basic start, modify the sliders, set the DSP to Rotary, press Details, set the Rotary parameters, and then save it as a User Voice. The JS organs are garbage, only because of their instant on, instant off Leslie. It still amazes me how Yamaha completely dropped the ball on those. The voices themselves aren't bad but they are useless because of the poor effects.
Do they do a better job of speed up / slow down ?
I agree that the basic effect (rotary) is not great, however lets remember that our Genos is an Arranger Keyboard NOT a full blown organ.
Organs of the likes of Hammond with an additional Leslie speaker are completely different beasts.
Our Genos has -:
1 a limited number of drawbars. Without the additional harmonics it is always going to sound a bit flat.
2 a Simple stereo digital amplifier not multiple valve amplifiers which produce a completely different sound.
3 quite simple digital sound chips not multiple Tone wheel generators.
I understand that you can improve the basic setup by adding in two separate DSP effects. However you are never going to replicate the very complex Doppler type of sound from a physical rotating speaker which cost roughly the same price as a new Genos.
https://www.bonnersmusic.co.uk/products/leslie-122xb-traditional-wood-40w-tube-amp
I personally don't think that even Yamaha can make any great improvements without doubling the price, so what is the point of stabbing Yamaha in the back.
Regards
Bill
I personally don't think that even Yamaha can make any great improvements without doubling the price, so what is the point of stabbing Yamaha in the back.I agree with Duffy. We're not stabbing Yamaha in the back. When Yamaha released the Genos, they bragged about their new revolution in sound, and rightly so. Somehow the organs got left behind. As Duffy mentioned, there are far cheaper keyboards with stellar B3 and Leslie sounds. Yamaha can do it. They simply choose not to, a decision probably directed by their marketing people. You'd be surprised how many things are squashed by those people.
Hi Soneg,Sorry for late response, i routed the Ch 3 (Stereo) audio apart in the mixer into the Lester inputs and the outputs to the Line in of the Genos and when using the drawbars you have to use the reverb effect in place of the rotary effect ( Rotary doesn’t work on separate outputs) . I made in the Lester an extra plug to control te speed with a foot pedal , than I could adjust the knobs with the unit on top of the Genos .
Would you please re-post the connection details for using a Lester G pedal for the B3 sounds on the Genos? It would be great if you include the wiring, as well as, the changes to the Genos signal routing. Many thanks!
I too have been disappointed with the B3 sounds on my Tyros 5 (not Genos). That said, using the Neo Ventilator 2 really helps the sound. Yamaha still lacks the vibrato that one finds on a B3. But having a convincing Leslie and distortion emulation really helps. Not inexpensive, but well worth the investment if you use your keyboard gigging and need a better B3/Leslie sound.
https://neo-instruments.com/ventilator-2/ (https://neo-instruments.com/ventilator-2/)
Excuse me if I am overlooking something obvious, but on an arranger keyboard playing it as such, wouldn't such a device make EVERYTHING being output through it via the audio out jacks on the Genos use the Leslie emulation? Drums, strings, piano, guitar, etc, being played during the accompaniment? I would like to play something like Whiter Shade of Pale but I would want ONLY the B3 sound playing to provide the Leslie emulation as it should. Anything other than that would just sound weird.You're right Rich, but to use an external Leslie emulator on the Right 1 voice (for example) you need to route the Right 1 voice to one of the Sub Outs of the Genos --> Separate mixer channel. The end result is a stereo mixed signal of the Genos L/R channels and the Right 1 voice panned to Center on the external mixer. There's an earlier post on how to connect the emulator so you can have it on top of your Genos and activate the unit from a pedal on the floor.
...After almost 4 years with the Genos I know Al the pro and cons of this machine and I know that it isn’t perfect but it is on this moment the best (top) arranger keyboard on the market .
I have also a Nord 5D for the drawbar sounds, indeed a lot better than the Genos with the Lester K ,this is a very fine combination and if you prefer a real organ feeling and playing you have to invest in a really good Hammond clone or the real thing.
I had a lot ideas to improve the Genos ( see other posts) but for now it’s the best you can get..
Just play it !
Soneg :)
OK, I took video last night showing the issue so Yamaha will know what I am talking about. Not the best video I have ever done, but it will suffice, I guess.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGA4FpfJepU
I just sent the link to Yamaha a few minutes ago, so we'll see how they respond to it. My guess is that they will claim that it isn't a bug, but a feature. ;)
BTW, while doing the video, I noticed that those JS organ voices just sound weird to me. The difference between the high and low rotary effect makes them sound like samples of two different organ sounds. Quite honestly, if they can't be fixed, I would just as soon just delete them.
OK, I took video last night showing the issue so Yamaha will know what I am talking about. Not the best video I have ever done, but it will suffice, I guess.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGA4FpfJepU
I just sent the link to Yamaha a few minutes ago, so we'll see how they respond to it. My guess is that they will claim that it isn't a bug, but a feature. ;)
BTW, while doing the video, I noticed that those JS organ voices just sound weird to me. The difference between the high and low rotary effect makes them sound like samples of two different organ sounds. Quite honestly, if they can't be fixed, I would just as soon just delete them.
If you're thinking of using the joystick to cross fade between the fast and slow speed samples, no you can't do this at the same time as you play a chord, so you'd have to time things so that you make the change very quickly between chords. And of course the joystick won't stay in place, so when you let it go, it's back to slow leslie, and the 'hold' button is no use for the reason you give. At least the mod wheel stayed put!
If you're thinking of using the joystick to cross fade between the fast and slow speed samples, no you can't do this at the same time as you play a chord, so you'd have to time things so that you make the change very quickly between chords. And of course the joystick won't stay in place, so when you let it go, it's back to slow leslie, and the 'hold' button is no use for the reason you give. At least the mod wheel stayed put!
Great to know, Chris! Thanks for the post. I assume we have to use the mysterious and clunky YEM software for loading this into the Genos? The only thing I detest about Yamaha is their software. It's often counter-intuitive to people who are so used to using MS products.
I found this YouTube video. It is an excellent comparison of the Genos organs vs Hammond. Unfortunately, he uses the Overdrive on the Genos, which colors the sound in an odd way but the man describes the Genos as being tinny in the high frequency area and weak in the midrange. I've always wondered why the Genos and Tyros organs never sounded quite right. I think he got that correct.
Chris - does that software address the high and mid frequencies issue? Thanks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GVeJXjyoDk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GVeJXjyoDk)
OK, I took video last night showing the issue so Yamaha will know what I am talking about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGA4FpfJepU
I just sent the link to Yamaha a few minutes ago, so we'll see how they respond to it. My guess is that they will claim that it isn't a bug, but a feature. ;)
BTW, while doing the video, I noticed that those JS organ voices just sound weird to me. The difference between the high and low rotary effect makes them sound like samples of two different organ sounds. Quite honestly, if they can't be fixed, I would just as soon just delete them.
Hi Rich --
I watched your demo video and actually read your on-screen comments. ;) A few thoughts...
The JS organ voices are really old. Some of these voices were first introduced in Tyros 3 (2008), "WhiterBars JS" (8/32/30), in particular. That voice is switching (or crossfading) between the WhiterBarsSlow and WhiterBarsFast samples. You can hear this by selecting WhiterBarsSlow (104/1/18) and then selecting WhiterBarsFast (104/0/18) in the Legacy voice category.
Both WhiterBarsSlow and WhiterBarsFast have the Leslie sampled in. That is, the Leslie effect is an integral sonic component of the base waveforms. If one crossfades a slow Leslie waveform and a fast Leslie waveform, ya get a swirling steaming heap of sonic rubbish.
The world and even Yamaha have moved on since 2008. However, Yamaha made a marketing mistake by featuring the JS organs so prominently. Manufacturers usually put the flagship piano voice at the top of the piano category -- it should be the same for drawbar organ voices.
Overall, I wouldn't bother with the JS voices. (Even complaining to Yamaha.) If you're speaking with a customer service rep at Yamaha, they are likely to respond, "That's the way the JS organ voices are expected to behave," i.e., it's not a bug; Move along, nothing to see here.
It's better to pressure Yamaha to improve the Organ Flutes engine and the rotary speaker DSP effect. They invested in the YC61 organ technology. I'd like to see an improved version of that YC technology in Genos.
I'm glad that you have passion about this issue and are raising issues with Yamaha.
All the best -- pj
Yes, my presumption is that the best voices would be the ones prominently displayed on the first page of the group.
Yeah, I am retired, but Lord only knows where the time goes. I don't know how I got anything at all done when I used to have a daytime job. But then again, just making a post like this might take me an hour or so. :(
Dear Rich,
a decent Leslie simulator must be a big problem to solve for manufacturers. I had many Korg flagships, and the organs sound and effects was just the same as Genos: many JS sounds (without ramp up/down), poor drawbars sound, awful Leslie simulator.
Korg and Yamaha programmers have professional habit with organ and Leslie sounds. Therefore they PERFECTLY KNOW the enormous limits of their organ setup, even better than us. But the fact that both companies, the best for arrangers IMHO, have not been able so far to develop a good result in this area shows that there must be some obstacles that we cannot understand.
I want to say that they know exactly the problem and don't need to get our complaints to discover it.....
In the mean time, as I showed in the short video I posted, other company, like Hammond Suzuki, have been able to produce a much better Leslie effect, and do not use at all funny stratagems like the JS voices. Other company, like Neo Vent for instance, make just the Leslie effect, that's very effective (still a simulation.... but decent).
The question is: are Yamaha engineers working on this item? I guess the only way to find out is to wait for the next generation of arrangers. May be....
Ciao
Angelo
Interesting, guys. I'm learning the songs for this new R&B band that hired me. I have listened to the guy I'm replacing. He plays a Roland synth made in 2012, in mono through a keyboard amp. I'm running my Genos in stereo through two Bose Compacts, which blow away any keyboard amp in mono. The old Roland organs make the Genos ones sound pretty poor. I can get by with the Genos ones but I really wish the Genos had more of a Hammond sound.
Did someone post a link to good custom B3 sounds that could be loaded into the Genos through the dreaded YEM software?
So can those preset JS organ voices be edited in any way? Or are they burned into Genos concrete? And if they can be edited, can that Leslie emulation on them be repaired?
Did someone post a link to good custom B3 sounds that could be loaded into the Genos through the dreaded YEM software?
Do you hear a substantial difference between the Organ Session samples and the Genos Organ Flutes with DSP?
Hi Lee --
I have the Easy Sounds "Organ Session" pack installed. "Organ Session" uses the in-built rotary speaker DSP effect. The pack contains new drawbar (individual and frequently used combinations) and percussion samples.
Easy Sounds also offers "Live Organ." The "Live Organ" pack has new samples, too, but the Leslie effect is recorded into the samples. I don't have any experience with "Live Organ" and chose "Organ Session" because it employs the DSP effect (which is tweakable).
Hope this helps -- pj
https://easysoundsshop.de/en/yamaha-electronic-keyboards/yamaha-genos/7/genos-organ-session-download
And they replied: "We decided to build our pricing based on a mixed calculation with the goal that every customer around the world pays the same price."That is shady. We have a similar tax in Canada called HST. It is 13%. I believe that when a visitor to our country makes a purchase, they receive a rebate for the tax. I don't know how this company can accurately calculate their prices so that everyone is treated fairly. There are just too many tax structures around the world to make this fair for everyone.
It sounds like Easy Sounds has changed their pricing policy. I have bought several packs from them in the past and wasn't charged the VAT.
:(
Joe H
Have you tried any of these LeeHi Eileen. I downloaded an organ voice. It is a .ppf file format. Do I use the YEM software to install this on my Genos? If so, which version do you recommend? I believe some are having major issues with the newest version. Thanks.
https://www.cms-sounddesign.com/freeware/organ-freeware/
I sent an email to Hans. He gave a reasonable explanation. Since their packs are strictly a download, he explained that some people in Europe claimed to be in another part of the world/country to get around the VAT. So they had to implement the new policy of charging everyone the same price that includes the VAT.
There are "cheaters" everywhere!
>:(
Joe H
Hi Eileen. I downloaded an organ voice. It is a .ppf file format. Do I use the YEM software to install this on my Genos? If so, which version do you recommend? I believe some are having major issues with the newest version. Thanks.
Why all this time on organ sounds. I can't figure it out. This is a Genos keyboard, the best in the world. I thought organ music was dead! I mean when organs were the instrument of sound, maybe yes, organ players had a point. But give us keyboard players some credit. Who would in there right minds want to hear organ sounds. Not being disrespectful to those organ players. But if you love organ sounds that much, buy an organ...not an instrument like a Genos, which does so many things, which sound better than your vintage organs. I just cannot see the relationship between an organ and a Genos Keyboard. It's like apple and oranges...like the old saying goes. Most people on this forum seem so hung up on anything, that has nothing to do with a Genos Keyboard.
Hi Lee,Thanks, Eileen. I'll do that. There are a few other good organ voices on that site I would like to try.
Yes you save the ppf file in the YEM. I still use version 7 as 8 works much slower. Why not download a few of there different sounds and make a pack to ;load into your keyboard.
Two things are not very clear to me from the demo and specifications, but I'll get in touch with IK Multimedia guys next week: may drawbars and Leslie speed be controlled by touch screen? what additional devices one needs to connect the tablet to Genos? besides iOS (Apple) and Windows, there is a version for Android?
To Lee or anyone elseThanks for replying. I'm in Canada and it would likely cost a ton of money to ship it here. The one thing forums should display is the country where members reside. That way, we know what pertains to us. Thanks again!
if you know what a real B3 Leslie... very very few substitutes will satisfy.
I've come to accept this.
I HAVE a little used Italian Crumar ( about 7-8 years old ) 2 manual organ clone, that players have in the past raved about.
I approximately used on a gig maybe 25 times
I have not used it since
It is in the original gig bag with wheels from Crumar
Im not a techie... I just gave up on this board.
I forgot the initial money I spent but around $3000
plus I bought and NEVER USED their leslie efx box - retailing for $400
and never used bass pedals
I want to sell it all
Make me an offer
Crumar Mojo Classic Dual Manual Organ
I don’t know if this unrelated question belongs in this threadHi Sugarplumsss,
Let me know
I own t4 for ten years. A real love hate was going
As time has passed I’ve grown used to it
I played a genos and was not overwhelmed
Can you give some impressions ( remembering this is hardly one single Instrument, but many instruments - thus I say. Please Provide multiple impressions ) as a former tyros guy now playing genos
I’m mainly interested in the tonal timbral
impressions the strings, ac pianos, elec pianos , basses, guitars brass etc etc etc
Have made on you.
Thanks
FYI for anyone interested... Easy Sounds is have a 30% off sale starting November 30th through December 2nd. So if you don't like paying the VAT, this sale should eliminate that cost. Easy Sounds accepts payment with PayPal so no credit card info is required. I think there are demo MP3s of the Organ pack(s)
Joe H
Has anyone bought the Easysound organ sessions? How much space would it take up on YEM pack?
Has anyone bought the Easysound organ sessions? How much space would it take up on YEM pack?
Kind regards,
Russ
I can't recall if this was mentioned before, and I am too lazy to read through the entire thread to find out, but this is an interesting writeup about this Yamaha Leslie emulation problem. -> http://sandsoftwaresound.net/tag/yamaha-genos/
4 Registration Banks, which were used for the recording of the four demo tracks,[used for the Funk demo "Gimme The Proof"],
- "Gimme The Proof" with six (6) Registrations
[used for the Rock demo "Hush"; together with an external rotary effects unit],
- "Hush" with two (2) Registrations
[used for the Blues demo "Nickel And A Nail"],
- "Nickel And A Nail" with six (6) Registrations
[used for the Rock demo "With A Little Help From My Friends"; together with an external rotary effects unit]
- "With A Little Help From My Friends" with six (6) Registrations
[/list]