PSR Tutorial Forum
Genos (12 Boards) => Genos - General => Topic started by: Losackmd on November 07, 2020, 05:34:22 PM
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would anyone with experience with both units
kindly give their impression of noticeable differences/if any
in the sound quality of each machine.
i.e. is it just that there are more features on GENOS or does it produce an overall more impressive sound quality than the PSR-SX900
i understand the REVO drums and Super articulation of certain samples are better on the GENOS
but i am concerned specifically with the GENERAL SOUND quality, e.g. does a STYLE on the GENOS
sound noticeably better than the same STYLE on the PSR-SX900?
Does a guitar strum in a STYLE on the GENOS sound clearer/ more authentic than that of the PSR?
i thank you for this forum and look forward to your helpful responses
GL
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As an SX 900 owner, I’ve often wondered the same thing. Can an experienced, objective “ear” tell the difference? An extension of that-----is any noticeable difference in sound quality alone worth the expense of an upgrade to the Genos?
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The Genos arranger has the best of everything included on it, Except for the PIANO sounds. Yamaha has admited that their very best Piano sounds are only found on their Clavinova model.
The Genos has based on that statement, Yamaha's second best sounding piano sounds.
When comparing sound, I believe you would also need to weigh in the Speaker system you are exporting the sound out to your audience.
Regards
Drake
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Hello everyone!
I have both, the Genos and the SX900, on the drums there is no difference, they sound the same, only that on the Genos if you are very observant and meticulous you notice the samples that are interspersed, but only that, I wish you could incorporate the voices S.A2 in the future.
Regards!!
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As an SX 900 owner, I’ve often wondered the same thing. Can an experienced, objective “ear” tell the difference? An extension of that-----is any noticeable difference in sound quality alone worth the expense of an upgrade to the Genos?
It is a personal opinion of course. Styles are almost the same.. But Genos give easier access for adjustment.
My personal complain is the vocal harmonies. On sx 900 it glipps and I could not make it work anyway. On Genos it works well.
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Genos does have SA2 and revo drums. But I think it is probably fair to say that a carefully prepared MIDI file created on Genos could be made to sound much the same on SX900.
But in my view, that's not really why you buy Genos. You buy it because it's a better, more satisfying experience with more room to "breathe". The kind of things I value are 76 keys, good size screen, multiple live control knobs and sliders, 3GB expansion, 28 DSP, 3 pedal inputs, twin track audio, etc etc.
I don't need Genos. But I love that I am fortunate enough to be able to have one. :)
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When comparing sound, I believe you would also need to weigh in the Speaker system you are exporting the sound out to your audience.
Regards
Drake
Spot on Drake... In my view the sound system and environment make a huge difference.
My SX sounds great to me through a good system. i did not need the extras Genos offers and prefer the portability of SX. ( ihave owned and played both the Genos and the SX. i only went down to an SX because this was the 'size' i was after initially and launch of SX was not until after the Genos )
Yes the SX spec is not up there with Genos, but having much the same OS and sharing many of the same voices and styles, it is fine for my needs.
its just 'another' board to my friends, family and the odd time i have an audience and they tell me it sounds great, so that's all that i am concerned about.
Just get a really good sound system i say with a little of the cost difference.
Keith
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Hello everyone!
My experience is the next, I bought a Genos in 2018, and I loved the drums and some voices, but there was something that I always hated "Its construction".
Genos materials are terribly fragile, of very low quality. The keyboard buckled when pressing the keys and the paint was terrible.
After I bought the SX900, the sounds are almost identical to those of Genos, the drums very well made, and above all the materials are absolutely superior.
I decided to sell the Genos and keep the SX900, it was not worth having a keyboard so expensive that I could not even attend an event because of how delicate it is.
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I have the Genos, and I have tried the SX900 several times in the store. It is a very good keyboard, but it is still a PSR. The Genos has more DSPs, after touch, Sart2 and so on. And it has a very good keybed. I am a hard player, but have not managed to get my Genos to buckle! But I agree that the finish gets marks easily. I think the build is OK, and it is only a couple of kilos heavier than the SX, but longer. I also agree that a good speaker system will boost the sound of any keyboard. You now have scat voices on the SX900, for the first time these voices are on a PSR. I really like that, LOL! So it really is up to you. There is a significant price difference, so consicer: Is the extra features on the Genos worth it? Good luck with deciding! Wnatever you decide, there will be music and a lot of fun!
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The Genos arranger has the best of everything included on it, Except for the PIANO sounds. Yamaha has admited that their very best Piano sounds are only found on their Clavinova model.
Numerous sounds are better on other Yamaha keyboards. YC61/YC73/YC88 has much better organ than Genos. There are Montage/MODX sounds that are better than their Genos equivalents (marimba is one example I remember, where Genos appears to have only one velocity layer where the Montage/MODX version has multiple velocity samples). Though in other cases, indeed, it is the Genos sounds that are better. Unfortunately, there is no one board that gives you all of Yamaha's best sounds.
Yamaha has admited that their very best Piano sounds are only found on their Clavinova model.
The Genos has based on that statement, Yamaha's second best sounding piano sounds.
Saying something else is best doesn't mean Genos is second best. Genos could also be third best, or fourth, or fifth... For various reasons, I think the pianos of (for example) the P-515, the CP88, and the Montage/MODX are all better than Genos as well.
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The PSR SX-900/700 are very good for what they are, i.e. mid-range arrangers with very good sounds for the price you pay.
But the Genos sounds are a step above, plus it has of course the S.Art2 voices and aftertouch, which is a feature many professional keyboardists can not do without. The Revo Drums on the Genos are exceptional in most cases, but there is always room for improvement. For example, the new Ketron Event 'midi drums' are simply fantastic from what I've heard so far. Here is a recent example and demonstration of a Ketron Event Drum Kit. Yamaha should take note. I do think the Genos '2', as in, the Genos successor, will have improved and more numerous Revo Drum Kits. They might even use a different technology for greater realism. Without further ado... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRJv5ZRYO9I
All the best,
Mike
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Keep in mind, you only get what you paid for! That said, Drake's response about the sound system holds a lot of weight as well. Additionally, your playing and performance skills can make a huge difference. The difference between the two keyboards is noticeable, but not to the untrained ears of your average audiences.
Good luck,
Gary 8)
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Even playing the same style side by side, you'll be hard pressed to tell the difference. But like Derek said, it has a lot more room to breathe. 3 gig vs 1 gig expansion and 76 vs 61 keys is already huge, even if they had the same sound sets (they don't; Genos has more, especially regarding S.Art 2 phrasing sounds, Resonator guitars, Pianos, Electric pianos, and ensemble strings. The Kino String Spiccatto sounds miles different from the Seattle String Spicatto, especially the plucked contrabass. To hear both types of spicatto, my Pirates of the Caribbean performance on Youtube features both:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOSmEEX-5Ks
Right at the start, I'm using the Seattlestring spicatto; intentionally softer and weaker.
At 1m 8s, I switch to the more dramatic Kinostring Spicatto. Hear the much more pronounced pluck? (it's still spicatto above contrabass, but they switched to plucked / pizzicato)
But styles? And midi files? You'll find difficult to distinguish.
Oddly, the s970/s975/sx900 have something the Genos didn't, which I've written Yamaha to complain about, but since I'm the only one (apparently) it's not a priority. But the PSR's mentioned above have string arpeggiators, which the Genos doesn't/ didn't (but I haven't updated to 2.13 yet, so maybe they finally added it).
Mark
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The sounds they share, in the raw, are the same.
But Genos has more DSP power and double the polyphony, thus more sound effects availability for style tracks and more.
It also has 6 routable independent (6) low-noise analog high-dinamic (32 bit) audio outputs.
But most cash is in features like memory, keyboard (aftertouch) and realtime assignable live controls.
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To hear both types of spicatto, my Pirates of the Caribbean performance on Youtube features both:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOSmEEX-5Ks
Mark,
I saw your orchestral performances on your YouTube channel and love them. I currently sold my SX900 and bought a MODX7+ to play similar orchestral stuff though I am not nearly as skilled as you are. MODX is great for orchestral performances. However I miss the SX900 and one day would consider a Genos to either work with the MODX or in place of it.
Rich
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Thanks Rich! I love the MODx; but since I *need* registration for switching soundscapes, CVP/PSR/Genos for me!
The comments on my youtube channel are kind of hilarious; with some claiming there's no way anyone can do this live (and people who've seen me in person chiming back in "saying oh yes it is live!"), and that it's all prerecorded (which my latest video, only posted here on PSR tutorial in the performers forum shows is all live; I had an audience of a few hundred) and some saying the opposite, that they sound to fake & synthy :p
Mark
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.. some claiming there's no way anyone can do this live... that it's all prerecorded...
hahah.. yes, that happens if you're too good ;D
People know that keyboards are very powerful today .. and some think keyboards have almost magical power and the musician is just a button pusher. Bet we can't blame them thinking that way, because keyboard actually can playback everything by itself.
Hmmm.. making a mistake now and then can actually be a good thing :)
Bogdan
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I was thinking this too. Here is my idea. Use this style from tyros 4 and test it with the genos and sx900 and use headphones to my ears the Brass sounded a bit Fuller but what do you think Here;s the style. https://www.dropbox.com/s/izfks7jqhkuzgv1/DiscoHands.T160.prs?dl=0 and make sure the master eq are set to flat for best comparison. Also check the master compressor and make sure there set the same.
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would anyone with experience with both units
kindly give their impression of noticeable differences/if any
in the sound quality of each machine.
i.e. is it just that there are more features on GENOS or does it produce an overall more impressive sound quality than the PSR-SX900
GL
Hi.
Whatever your final choice, I recommend investing in a decent pair of studio monitors.
I've had both instruments, but I returned the PSR -SX900 because of the speakers and kept the Genos instead.
Unfortunately, I made a mistake and bought the Genos speakers at the same time. Yes, they are LOUD speakers,
but the sound quality is completely unacceptable.
-Kiplis-
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Just posted this in a different thread...
Yamaha definitely pumped up the Genos styles. Genos has the UNI COMP compressor; SX900 does not. On some Genos styles, Yamaha inserted the UNI COMP compressor on almost every style part. The UNI COMP compressor, the greater number of DSP units and the re-programmed styles makes a difference.
Hope this helps -- pj
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For various reasons, I think the pianos of (for example) the P-515, the CP88, and the Montage/MODX are all better than Genos as well.
Agree that MODX piano, which I have, should be high ranked. Having previously had the SX900, its piano is definitely thin compared to MODX. Regarding the Genos’ CFX Grand, I never tried it, I am curious how it compares to the MODX CFX patch. As far as the best Yamaha piano I am assuming Clavinova or P-515 is at number one.
Rich
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absolutely not. The p515 piano patch is mid-range (the sx900 piano is superior), but the keys are the best you can get for a portable. Best piano sounds on a portable? Roland Rd88. Yamaha Cp88. Nord Piano 3/4/5/Grand. Yamaha Cp1. Korg Pa5x/Nautilus, Yamaha Montage.
Non portables? Too many good ones to list, but the CVP809, N1x/N3x are at the top.
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absolutely not. The p515 piano patch is mid-range (the sx900 piano is superior)
Hi Mark,
I can’t tell if you are addressing my comment. Admittedly I have never played a P515 or a CP piano, or a Genos, and know even less about Roland and Nord pianos, so I’ll take your final word on this.
I do agree that the MODX synth should not be considered a top tier portable piano sound, there are definitely some issues with it. I do wonder how the Genos CFX piano voice compares with my MODX CFX piano voice, as there is little discussion about that online, probably since one is an arranger and the other a synth.
It was my understanding from a serious reviewer that the P515 was essentially the same piano quality as a Clavinova just in a portable casing. So I am confused that you are calling the P515 “midrange” quality.
Also confused that you are saying the SX900 arranger piano is “superior” to the P515? I had an SX900 and traded it in for a MODX7+ because I thought the SX piano, though it was a very nicely processed piano sound, still was quite thin sounding in the mid-range and perhaps didn’t decay and sustain correctly enough for me when playing serious solo pieces.
Long story short, I now want to sell my MODX7+ and re-acquire the SX900 because I discovered I really prefer arrangers to synths, and think the SX piano is sufficient enough for me :) so was curious about your comments.
Rich
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Hi Mark,
I can’t tell if you are addressing my comment. Admittedly I have never played a P515 or a CP piano, or a Genos, and know even less about Roland and Nord pianos, so I’ll take your final word on this.
*snip*
Rich
Yes, sorry I was addressing your comment. Yes the P515 is a portable Clavinova, but it's a portable version of the CLP645, nowhere near the same level as a CVP805 or 809 sample. Oh, the MODX piano is very good! I haven't had both the MODX and the MOntage out at the same time, so it's hard to compare them (I think the only difference between the 2 was metal chassis and the piano) but the MODX piano is in the same ballpark as the CLP775 and CP88, so yes, very good as well!
The P515 is not as good as the aforementioned. Unlike Roland, where ever x701/702/704/706/708 all use the same piano algorithm (and likewise, every x601/603/607/609 uses the same one) most Clavinovas don't share piano sounds of other models, with only a few exceptions. Mikf's CVP705 has a *much* better sounding piano than the P515, so when gushes about how good his piano is, he's not wrong. And the 805 and 809 are even better.
Mark
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I do wonder how the Genos CFX piano voice compares with my MODX CFX piano voice, as there is little discussion about that online, probably since one is an arranger and the other a synth.
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-piano-voice-programming/
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Thanks, Mark, I didn't know this about the P515, not that I was seriously considering that one anyway.
I think I'll be fine with the SX900 piano, though it will be a step down from MODX.
MODX & Montage sounds are exactly the same, including pianos. Montage has a higher quality DAC I believe, so a slight difference in output quality some might notice. Like Genos, Montage has more sliders, controls etc.
Rich
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http://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-piano-voice-programming/
PJD,
Excellent article. That actually clears up what the Genos CFX piano is, as I essentially have that one part patch on my MODX called “CFX Stage Grand”. It’s interesting that the article suggests that Yamaha should release a CFX pack for Genos that would be comprised of a better CFX piano utilizing all 3 RH voices for more detail (equivalent to the 4 part “CFX Concert Grand” on MODX), but I’m sure Yamaha will never do it. Maybe most arranger users don’t need it. Maybe their “Genos 2” would incorporate something like that. Would be nice on SX900 as well!
Rich
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http://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-piano-voice-programming/
Very interesting article - so essentially the difference between MODX and Genos CFX "voices" is in that extra layer (part #3) of CFX samples with the "different" filter settings. I wonder how different they are, and if it might be possible to use YEM to build a voice similar to that extra layer. It would be interesting to hear that part on its own to get some feel for what it's adding.
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I wonder how different they are
DerekA,
Most of the technical aspects of the article goes over my head, but I can tell you on my MODX there is actually not that much difference (to my ears) between the 1 part “CFX Stage” and the 4 part “CFX Grand” piano voices. A more discerning ear than mine might definitely notice something. Perhaps you can go to a store that has a MODX and listen to each part on its own using headphones. There is a mute button on screen for each part. Yamaha included both piano options on the MODX in case someone wants to build a complex sound using the 1 part piano option which uses up less parts, as there is an 8 part limit per Performance.
Rich
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I have both the Genos and SX900. Now here's something non-technical and very simple. I've owned many PSRs, Tyros, 2, 4 and 5. Korg Pa2x, Pa3x and Pa4x.
When I purchased the Genos my wife's comments were, it looks like all the other keyboards you owned...............then I turned it on a played it thru my Bose system.
He comment "This is the best sounding one yet."
She hasn't said that about the SX900.
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Very interesting article - so essentially the difference between MODX and Genos CFX "voices" is in that extra layer (part #3) of CFX samples with the "different" filter settings. I wonder how different they are, and if it might be possible to use YEM to build a voice similar to that extra layer. It would be interesting to hear that part on its own to get some feel for what it's adding.
The basic difference is that the MODX piano is made up of 18 elements (essentially 18 sets of wave data, which can triggered under different circumstances), whereas Genos is limited to 8 elements. The article does talk about part 3 having different filter programming... I don't know about that, but based on this video, part 3 has the samples for all the high (undamped) notes.
https://youtu.be/xaXw0LC34gk
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Hi
I have both and was intrigued at the beginning of ownership to find differences in voice sounds. The only way for me to judge
was to play just the basic raw voice.. no effects, nada. Also tried to compare the demo voices. It was difficult to find any
discernible difference between the 2. Once the effects are put in motion of course the differences are more discernible, but
out of the box it sounds the same.. to me . However the one only thing that was different was the sound of the styles.(sx900)
much sharper, stronger,, a bit louder. Am interested in knowing if others are just judging voice sound plain out of the box?????
PS.. not discounting the sound systems used.
Interesting topic.
cheers
elaine
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..The only way for me to judge was to play just the basic raw voice.. no effects, nada. Also tried to compare the demo voices. It was difficult to find any discernible difference between the 2..
-I think that this is the only proper way to compare voices (without any effects applied). Of course both keyboard must be connected to mixer, so the same PA/speaker system is used.
And even then, it's sometimes hard to be really sure. For example, if one keyboard is only slightly louder than another, that keyboard will sound better to us. And then the "human part" plays the role too.. we expect that more expensive (bigger, better looking) keyboard "must" sound better -it's a thing that happens in our brain.
My opinion.. I don't believe that Yamaha recorded samples especially for Genos. That is, I'm pretty sure, that for the same voices, same samples are used in PSR-SX.
There are other things that make Genos better sounding (especially if a pro is playing on it): special voices (i.e SA2), better keybed (+aftertouch), more sophisticated sound processing, etc.
Bogdan
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My opinion.. I don't believe that Yamaha recorded samples especially for Genos. That is, I'm pretty sure, that for the same voices, same samples are used in PSR-SX.
There are other things that make Genos better sounding (especially if a pro is playing on it): special voices (i.e SA2), better keybed (+aftertouch), more sophisticated sound processing, etc.
I agree with Bogdan. Yamaha (Roland, Korg) are the world's biggest re-cyclers -- of waveforms (AKA samples). They simply do not have enough sound development resources to revamp waveforms with every new product, flagship or not. Yamaha usually add a few genuinely new, "from scratch" voices while the older voices drift into the Legacy folder. They tend to keep everything (flash memory is cheap). That's why Yamaha arranger backward-compatibility is pretty good.
Genos has enough DSP resources to put an insert effect on every style part (eight parts). SX900 can put a DSP insert effect on two parts. (See the effect diagram in the Genos Ref Manual, page 132 and the table in the SX900 manual, page 105.)
The extra DSP effects give styles a more "studio finished" sound. Genos also has more effect types than SX900 like the UNICOMP compressor. The extras add up.
All the best -- pj
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I have both and was intrigued at the beginning of ownership to find differences in voice sounds. The only way for me to judge
was to play just the basic raw voice.. no effects, nada. Also tried to compare the demo voices. It was difficult to find any
discernible difference between the 2.
The differences may be come more noticeable once you know more precisely what it is you're listening for. The place to look for the differences are, well, the places where the wave sets are different. The main difference is probably in the number of velocity layers. So if you you play just one note (with no effects) and gradually increase from the quietest to the loudest you can play that note, you should hear a smoother transition in the sound, with more of the tonal differences that come from playing piano keys with different velocities (as opposed to just changes in loudness). It would help if you used MIDI to play both from the same board (because different actions provide different velocity responsiveness), and it should be a hammer action (which gives you more fine control over dynamics than when playing a non-hammer action board).
At certain velocities, the two should sound the same, because presumably many samples are identical on both instruments. But the transitions in timbre from soft to loud should be less noticeable and more natural sounding when there are more velocity layers, and the board doesn't have to "jump" between more coarse approximations. Of course, music doesn't consist of playing one note at all volumes. ;-) But once you "lock in" to what the differences are, you might notice a more natural expressivity when you play with varying dynamics on the board with more velocity layers. That's also why so many VSTs boast about how many velocity layers they have.
Another difference is the key release sample on the MODX/Montage version. You won't hear it when you're playing notes, but it will make a subtle but noticeable difference when you release the notes (when the sustain pedal isn't depressed).
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would anyone with experience with both units
kindly give their impression of noticeable differences/if any
in the sound quality of each machine.
i.e. is it just that there are more features on GENOS or does it produce an overall more impressive sound quality than the PSR-SX900
i understand the REVO drums and Super articulation of certain samples are better on the GENOS
but i am concerned specifically with the GENERAL SOUND quality, e.g. does a STYLE on the GENOS
sound noticeably better than the same STYLE on the PSR-SX900?
Does a guitar strum in a STYLE on the GENOS sound clearer/ more authentic than that of the PSR?
i thank you for this forum and look forward to your helpful responses
GL
I found this video very interesting it explanes about sound quaity you might can use it as a refersnce https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25Q2vIvyb4Y
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The differences may be come more noticeable once you know more precisely what it is you're listening for. The place to look for the differences are, well, the places where the wave sets are different. The main difference is probably in the number of velocity layers. So if you you play just one note (with no effects) and gradually increase from the quietest to the loudest you can play that note, you should hear a smoother transition in the sound, with more of the tonal differences that come from playing piano keys with different velocities (as opposed to just changes in loudness). It would help if you used MIDI to play both from the same board (because different actions provide different velocity responsiveness), and it should be a hammer action (which gives you more fine control over dynamics than when playing a non-hammer action board).
At certain velocities, the two should sound the same, because presumably many samples are identical on both instruments. But the transitions in timbre from soft to loud should be less noticeable and more natural sounding when there are more velocity layers, and the board doesn't have to "jump" between more coarse approximations. Of course, music doesn't consist of playing one note at all volumes. ;-) But once you "lock in" to what the differences are, you might notice a more natural expressivity when you play with varying dynamics on the board with more velocity layers. That's also why so many VSTs boast about how many velocity layers they have.
Another difference might be the key release sample on the MODX/Montage version. You won't hear it when you're playing notes, but it will make a subtle but noticeable difference when you release the notes (when the sustain pedal isn't depressed). Though it's also possible than an 8-element implementation could still include this as well.