PSR Tutorial Forum
Genos (12 Boards) => Genos - General => Topic started by: metcam on July 29, 2020, 11:34:38 PM
-
Now we have all free packs from Yamaha plus third party packs we really need more room in Expansion .
This is "P's of Cake" for Yamaha!!
Regards
-
Yamaha can do 128 GB
But they won't.
-
Yamaha could let me stream Netflix right onto the big screen in the middle. Genos has a wifi connection, so why not?
But they won't.
-
Thanks Francesco.
-
I am now much more selective of what samples I load and make sure I will use them. Doing this I have plenty of room left. Why cram everything on just because we can. It is the same with styles. We have hundreds but if we are honest how many to we really use.
-
I am now much more selective of what samples I load and make sure I will use them. Doing this I have plenty of room left. Why cram everything on just because we can. It is the same with styles. We have hundreds but if we are honest how many to we really use.
Sometimes you need that extra memory for samples.
I've used Kontakt Instruments
Some Instruments were almost 200 GB. ..
We're not even asking for 200 GB.
Even 128 GB would be good enough for Expansion Packs. ..
-
At present Genos has 3Gb for samples to suggest 125 Gb is way out of the question
-
Some Instruments were almost 200 GB. ..
That's because they are designed to run on PCs which may have disks in the TB region. They are using multiple key and velocity samples, many seconds long - and mainly because they can, rather than because it makes for a fantastic voice at the end of it.
-
That's because they are designed to run on PCs which may have disks in the TB region. They are using multiple key and velocity samples, many seconds long - and mainly because they can, rather than because it makes for a fantastic voice at the end of it.
Nowadays nvme SSDs with hundreds of Gigabytes and stellar transfer rates costs peanuts. With 50 € you can buy a Chinese smartphone (a Genos too is Chinese) with 16 Gb of storage (plus ram, quad core CPU, screen, battery, GPS, gyroscope,..... added on top for free).
Less than 4Gb of storage (worth probably 10 cents) in a 4k€ device is simply ridiculous.
But when a Montage USB transfer speed tops at 30 kbytes/sec (only ten times a 1983 midi cable) then you realise that they are 40 years behind the state of the art.
Maybe your nephews in 2060 will enjoy 2020 tech.
Ah, they add 16 gb to smartphones just because they can. You can make a perfect phone call even with an old fashioned electromechanical phone (those with the numbers around a sliding ring). The voice is strong and clear, and the ringtone is loud!! You cannot miss it.
-
That's because they are designed to run on PCs which may have disks in the TB region. They are using multiple key and velocity samples, many seconds long - and mainly because they can, rather than because it makes for a fantastic voice at the end of it.
Genos and SX are no longer the Old OS system
Linux is quite customisable.
The current limitations that Yamaha is giving is kinda low.
Now we have Flagship Smartphones with 12 + GB RAM.
This is a Workstation. And with MIDI 2.0 it should be easier.
-
Genos and SX are no longer the Old OS system
Linux is quite customisable.
The current limitations that Yamaha is giving is kinda low.
Now we have Flagship Smartphones with 12 + GB RAM.
This is a Workstation. And with MIDI 2.0 it should be easier.
I wasn't aware of a new MIDI standard, but after almost 40 years with version 1, I guess it was time 8)
https://www.midi.org/midi-articles/details-about-midi-2-0-midi-ci-profiles-and-property-exchange (https://www.midi.org/midi-articles/details-about-midi-2-0-midi-ci-profiles-and-property-exchange)
-
The Genos OS is based on Linux, but the hardware differs fundamentally from that of a Smartphone or PC.
Here is some interesting information on the subject of "Genos Main CPU" and "Genos Tone Generation" from our forum member "PJ" (Paul J. Drongowski):
>>> https://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-genos-main-cpu/
>>> https://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-genos-tone-generation/
Since the Expansion Wave memory (as well as the Preset Wave memory) is designed as special "NAND Flash" memory chips (directly connected to the Tone Generator chips "SWP70" Slave and "SWP70 Master" of the Genos), this memory cannot be expanded by standard SSD or eMMC memory.
Best regards,
Chris
-
Here's a review by Craig Anderton on the 2.0 spec.
https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/midi-2-0-what-actually-matters-for-musicians/ (https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/midi-2-0-what-actually-matters-for-musicians/)
Joe H
-
Since the Expansion Wave memory (as well as the Preset Wave memory) is designed as special "NAND Flash" memory chips (directly connected to the Tone Generator chips "SWP70" Slave and "SWP70 Master" of the Genos), this memory cannot be expanded by standard SSD or eMMC memory.
Typical example of reinventing the wheel to make it square!
Not only SSDs are dirty cheap and with performance to spare, but also RAM is cheaper than ever.
With the cost of 2 pizzas you can buy 4 Gb of ram and load into it the whole Genos sample rom from a magnetic tape at startup. And forget once for all the transfer speed problem (that only Yamaha seems to have, since the rest of the world is perfectly fine with SSDs).
Amen.
-
Nowadays nvme SSDs with hundreds of Gigabytes and stellar transfer rates costs peanuts. With 50 € you can buy a Chinese smartphone (a Genos too is Chinese) with 16 Gb of storage (plus ram, quad core CPU, screen, battery, GPS, gyroscope,..... added on top for free).
Less than 4Gb of storage (worth probably 10 cents) in a 4k€ device is simply ridiculous.
But when a Montage USB transfer speed tops at 30 kbytes/sec (only ten times a 1983 midi cable) then you realise that they are 40 years behind the state of the art.
Maybe your nephews in 2060 will enjoy 2020 tech.
Ah, they add 16 gb to smartphones just because they can. You can make a perfect phone call even with an old fashioned electromechanical phone (those with the numbers around a sliding ring). The voice is strong and clear, and the ringtone is loud!! You cannot miss it.
Those are very different technollogies...thats indirect accessible memmory
Meaning the procesoor can”t access it directly..
What we see on keyboards is direct accessible flash ram..
Thast something totally different
And much more expensive..
There is 8Gb inside the Genos i believe..
There is 4 GB for internal sounds and 4 GB for external (3GB of it for samples)
The only thing that Yamaha could do is moving all the free expansions to the internal ROM part (which actually is flash ram)
There is only 2.5GB of samples in Genos internal ROM, so basically they could free up 1.5GB of the expansion RAM, if they wanted to..
They could alos decide on expanding the internal memmory with new sounds, like a Bosendorfer Piano, and whatever people would like
But thats about it i guess...
When you look at other high end hardware instruments, Yamaha isn”t doing to bed with the Genos.
Montage only has 2GB, MODX has 1 GB
And Korg PA4x also has 3GB
Ketron has 750 MB in their top product SD9
Kurzweil Forte has 16GB, from which 3GB are for user samples..
Nord has 2 GB for piano and 500MB for other samples..
Does everyone see the pattern by now?
The only exception is Korg Kronos, which has around 30GB for external samples..
But thats because Korg is the only company using a different technollogie (sample streaming from disk) which as slightly more latency
So why do you think this is the case?
-
Unfortunately I think the reason the limit is currently 3gb and not 4gb (considering there is 4gb or flash), is because the size of the Genos install files, is larger than the size of its samples. Go to YEM, select Genos and you'll see that the Voice WAV size and Pack Install size are two different things. So it seems that to loan 3gb of voices, you need 4gb of space.
All that said, I still agree with the premise that current TOTL keyboards from all companies are 20 years behind. It frustrates me that not one of them has an "Apple moment" where they say, "Let's build the instrument of the future!" Or even of the present.
The fact is these arrangers should have as a minimum:
- A great synthesizer
- A great drum mixer
- Real multiband EQ for channels
- Great mastering
(Korg actually does have versions of the last 3 items)
If they were able to pull off the incredible ensemble voice technology (which is as good as the commercial ones!), and the organ voice technology, why not these other basic technologies?
-
All these things are available *today* if you use a computer with DAW, VSTs and a controller keyboard.
The market for hardware workstations like the Genos has a different focus. It gives us a taste of those things but not a full banquet. Why not? Fundamentally because *most* customers just don't want them.
Personally, yes I would love a hardware workstation that had all those features you list Chony, but I can't really see it happening. There are not enough customers who want this and would pay for it. We've seen digital cameras, music players, sat nav etc all being folded into mobile phones rather than being standalone hardware. That's just the way it's going.
-
Very True,
You can probably make music on a phone also but it is never going to be the same as buying a musical instrument and using it as it is designed to be used. You are right many of us do not want all this electronic stuff added to our keyboards. We are happy with what we have.
-
All these things are available *today* if you use a computer with DAW, VSTs and a controller keyboard.
The market for hardware workstations like the Genos has a different focus. It gives us a taste of those things but not a full banquet. Why not? Fundamentally because *most* customers just don't want them.
Personally, yes I would love a hardware workstation that had all those features you list Chony, but I can't really see it happening. There are not enough customers who want this and would pay for it. We've seen digital cameras, music players, sat nav etc all being folded into mobile phones rather than being standalone hardware. That's just the way it's going.
Good luck creating your own arranger on pc..
You will have to do everything from scratch
Nothing is ballanced
You will be tinkering with your gear and software continously..
I prefer spending my time behind a hardware keyboard making music..
Pc, or in my case the ipad works well as an addition to the lovely Genos..
If there is something missing in my Genos, or my stage piano.. the ipad can do it for me..
Works well...
-
You are right many of us do not want all this electronic stuff added to our keyboards. We are happy with what we have.
Given the average age of those attending the Yamaha arranger demonstrations (see on YouTube the videos of the Dutch ace player whose name I do not remember now) this is perfectly understandable. After all when they were young (and received their inprinting that will last for life) even a basic handheld calculator was advanced technology (in the 70s it took a full month of salary to buy one).
But when, not many years from now, Yamaha will have to find new costumers for their products, (the millennials), I do not think that they could fob them off with a technology (and firmware) that was already obsolete even before their birth!
-
Very True, You are right many of us do not want all this electronic stuff added to our keyboards. We are happy with what we have.
But you realise that you are slowly becomming a minority?
Where Yamaha allways shines is taking that high end stuff and adding it to their high end arranger keyboard.. i will give you some examples, like the ensemble section, you would have called that high end stuff, yet you probably love it the way Yamaha implemented this..
Same for touch screens, during Tyros 4/5 upgrade, many people here said they didn’t need a touch screen, yet it is here and allmost everyone loves its functionallity..
I think Yamaha is doing great with their updates, yet they are doing it to slow for many people here..
I can make a long list of these features everyone would love if implemented the Yamaha way... Where Yamaha makes those high end features easy to use...
But saying, we are happy with the Genos as is, is something different from saying we are enjoying the Genos as is, but realise it could be so much better if.....(fill in 100 improvements) .. and yet we are all here, because we love Yamaha keyboards?
Anyway, personally i think all those people saying the Genos is great and does not need any new features, is the reason that arranger sales in Europe and the US keep dropping as we speak. Because Yamaha listens to you, and thinks by itselves, this is a lovely situation, minimal effort, maximal proffit..
There is nothing wrong with having long lists of wishes for a next keyboard generation, or even a V2.5 or V3.0 upgrade.. i think when done with respect for our current instrument, its a great thing ..
I in general only ask from Yamaha to implement features they have on their other less expensive keyboards too.. features that could be fun... fun for everyone... and improve the quallity of the instrument for all..
-
... I in general only ask from Yamaha to implement features they have on their other less expensive keyboards too.. features that could be fun... fun for everyone... and improve the quality of the instrument for all..
I agree with you 100%. There are many features from their synths going way back 20 years that could be ported over to the arranger and add great value and an element of creativity for the player. Especially the TOTL arranger... considering its price point.
Remember, Yamaha never take away features, they just add more to the next arranger release. We still don't know how many new features could be added to the Genos and PSR-sx arrangers with OS updates. Like an Arpeggiator Editor, Voice Editor, add more arpeggios, more DSPs, etc. We know they increased the capacity of the MIDI on-board sequencer and changed the fonts for display, etc.
Joe H
-
Well this thread seems to have drifted from its original topic! Nevertheless, this is my take on it.
There is a good reason why Yamaha have for many years been market leaders in arranger keyboards - and it isn't because they have produced the most innovative or technically advanced arrangers (because in my opinion they never have). In my opinion, it is because Yamaha have cleverly and consistently produced the best overall cost-effective packages with useful, easy-to-use features (not necessarily the most technically advanced) that suit the requirements of the adult audience that they feel is most likely to buy home arranger keyboards. And they have cleverly done that, with marketing and distribution expertise to match, for many years, helped by communities such as this, so that in effect the Yamaha brand name now sells the products.
However nothing lasts forever, and I cannot help but think that the time for the demise of hardware keyboard arrangers as we have known them is not far away - they can only get away with updated repackaging of their existing technologies for so long. Whether we will ever see hybrid workstation-arranger type products (as some have suggested) remains to be seen. My hope is that someone comes up with something more revolutionary and innovative, and my thinking is that we could see moves away from hardware arrangers that have a dedicated and limited built-in software OS, to more flexible computer-like solutions designed around software. We have already seen a handful of small 3rd-party developers come up with software arranger products to supplement/enhance existing arranger keyboards - will one of the main keyboard manufacturers take this concept further?
Whatever new developments come next, we don't know whether or not it will be Yamaha leading the way (if indeed there are going to be any new arranger-type developments). However, I am reminded that over 30 years ago Yamaha dabbled in the home computer market, producing a couple of home PC products that were heavily music orientated. In fact the last of these, at the end of the 1980's, was a music orientated PC that had a number of MIDI specific features - it was in fact a dedicated MIDI studio in a laptop-type box.
Regards
Roy
-
[...] Remember, Yamaha never take away features, they just add more to the next arranger release. [...]
I beg to differ, Joe... coming from the 3000 and the S-950, I miss Music Finder a lot, despite the limitations it has compared to Registrations. With these, one is stuck with just an alphabetic song order for a gig. MF allowed instantaneous on-screen sort by Style or Tempo, not to mention the "Favourite", "Search1" and "Search2" screens, which allowed one to organize a repertoire into three meaningful subsets, taking advantage of Michael Bedesem's Music Finder View utility. I could say I miss also some panel buttons, but I may be still to discover that I can recover them with the assignable buttons, as I'm still in the learning curve with the SX.
Regards -- José
-
On the newer keyboards Play list is the way to go. You can store your gigs set in order of play and as many as you like. you can move the order around to suit.
-
I beg to differ, Joe...
Regards -- José
Nothing was taken away, it's just implemented differently or improved.
Joe H
-
On the newer keyboards Play list is the way to go. You can store your gigs set in order of play and as many as you like. you can move the order around to suit.
Thanks, Eileen. That seems to be Yamaha's choice for the future and Playlists are fantastic if you gig in a predefined sequence. I'm still to find out a good way to change the mood of my performance at an arbitrary moment without having a specific song name in mind. I had it figured out with Music Finder. New meadows to explore now.
But we're really getting way off topic, as RoyB pointed out. Sorry...
-
I must admit that it has always baffled me that Yamaha put so little space for storage in their magnificent keyboards. I love the big hard drive on my Tyros. But my S975 is full after putting some midi files and maybe 100 styles in user memory. I prefer storing things on the keyboard, then it is always there. An USB stick may be forgotten. And for expansion..... Well, you have mentioned it. But Yamaha may have a reason for keeping the memory small, who knows, I am not a data savvy person.
-
I must admit that it has always baffled me that Yamaha put so little space for storage in their magnificent keyboards. I love the big hard drive on my Tyros. But my S975 is full after putting some midi files and maybe 100 styles in user memory. I prefer storing things on the keyboard, then it is always there. An USB stick may be forgotten. And for expansion..... Well, you have mentioned it. But Yamaha may have a reason for keeping the memory small, who knows, I am not a data savvy person.
I explained this in a previous answer.. only the korg kronos has more room for user samples.. Genos is at the top of them all..
Thats because the type of memmory required for the current hardware is way more expensive then PC memmory. Its not ram its flash ram, ans thats something different then SSD memory too.
-
On the newer keyboards Play list is the way to go. You can store your gigs set in order of play and as many as you like. you can move the order around to suit.
You can even convert your old music finder files to the new more flexible system..
-
I agree with you 100%. There are many features from their synths going way back 20 years that could be ported over to the arranger and add great value and an element of creativity for the player. Especially the TOTL arranger... considering its price point.
Remember, Yamaha never take away features, they just add more to the next arranger release. We still don't know how many new features could be added to the Genos and PSR-sx arrangers with OS updates. Like an Arpeggiator Editor, Voice Editor, add more arpeggios, more DSPs, etc. We know they increased the capacity of the MIDI on-board sequencer and changed the fonts for display, etc.
Joe H
There is so many easy improvements they could make... and then i am not talking about implementing the latest VCM organs and piano’s. Or an FM, VA or VL synth engine... this would be nice for the next Genos tough..
No much more basic things.. like being able to add different arps to every sound
Having access to arps as a searchable item, just like sounds and styles, being able to save them on USB
Having a choice when not using a midi file, to get into a pro mode, with 8 voices and a style part, each voice having 2 dsp effects and an arp.. you basically would create a modx this way inside the genos.. with just assigning resources differently....
Better interaction with a pc or an ipad... i think an ipad could be the perfect tool for indepth sound design, package management, and even midi editing with a piano roll (or audio edditing) if Yamaha converted one of their piano apps to just do this... also integrating the sheet music part.. and maybe even piano/keyboard practice by supporting a tool like piano marvel..
But also being able to create your own SA1 voices would be great..
or access to soundmondo, which is an online database from Yamaha where modx/montage owners can share sounds and performances they created. Easy searchable with an ipad app.
And so many other things... like adding a Bosendorefer Imperial piano sound to their onboard sounds, there is still enough free ram to do this..
I think Yamaha’s financial interest in selling content trough the website might have been holding them back. This might be exactly the reason whey Yamaha stopped with paid expansion, this allows them to develop more tools for the users to become more creative with their instruments, witouth people in the company referring to the expansion packs as a reason not to do this.
Only time will tell, but i guess we will see atleast 2 more major updates to Genos in its lifetime with more new feautures and improvements.
-
I must admit that it has always baffled me that Yamaha put so little space for storage in their magnificent keyboards. I love the big hard drive on my Tyros. But my S975 is full after putting some midi files and maybe 100 styles in user memory. I prefer storing things on the keyboard, then it is always there. An USB stick may be forgotten. And for expansion..... Well, you have mentioned it. But Yamaha may have a reason for keeping the memory small, who knows, I am not a data savvy person.
Thats why I liked the hidden compartment on my Genos for a 'fixed external' USB, which worked just like additional user memory, I had a 32gig in mine which was more than I would have ever needed . pity this is not on the SX.
Simply bung a connected, hidden flash drive inside the cabinet when they are making the thing ...End of problem for user storage and it would hardly cost much and keep everybody happy! ...i know and dont see why you cant use this for expansion, i am not that technical...i own a car but I dont understand what goes on under the bonnet!
As for expansion ....dont get me started!! everything in my view should be 'load and play' with no manager required!
The very reason I prefer Yamaha to the difficult OS Korg operates, is so I can work on the keyboard itself and hardly need to use a laptop/tablet to manage my files.
If I can't manage with preset /legacy voices /styles plus my easily loaded external styles/voices and regis ...then i recon it's a poor situation. These latest keyboards have hundreds of options pre-loaded and if you include legacy, then its 1000's plus your own, then its endless!
I just have my full external library of styles and voices on user and i can quickly search and load what i need if ever i am stuck for choice..
I do hope they are not moving the way Korg operates by having you need a keyboard management app. before you install extra stuff.
I like to play not administrate!
Keith
-
I think, with the 3GB we are on the upper limit. Maybe Yamaha can free some more bytes, but I think, the remaining 1 GB is in use for internal voice or effects.
What is also not known, whether the tone generator chip can support more than 4 GB of sample storage - the user memory is connected to another interface that works more like a hard disk. The sample storage is addressed (as I suppose) like RAM or ROM.
I can only imagine one way to get 'more' room for samples. This would be using the user-memory as storage for the sample voices and move them in and out of the 4 GB sample storage as needed.
But this means: No user memory - you have to rely on USB storage for your files (styles, Registrations, MIDI etc.) - for me no deal, as I already use an USB Stick for my storage, not the user memory.
But Yamaha would need to rewrite or at least review big portions of their code to implement this swapping. And I don't think they will do this.
Before I bought my GENOS, I was thinking about building my own arranger with a MIDI-controller, a PC and a bunch of Software. But then I realized: I want to make music, not fiddeling arround with software that does not really co-operate.
And that is why I got my GENOS.
Rainer
-
When I got my S770 I was super excited to have about 150MB expansion space. And I could load more than one pack at once! Remember before that it was one pack at a time - and then only from Yamaha's limited range.
We're so spolied now with 3GB, a large selection of third party packs, plus soundfonts and anything we make from our own samples.
There's always room for more, but I'm also grateful for what I have right now :)
-
... I can only imagine one way to get 'more' room for samples. This would be using the user-memory as storage for the sample voices and move them in and out of the 4 GB sample storage as needed...
Rainer
You can't use the User memory for samples or expansion pack Voices. It's used for styles, Multi Pads, Registrations and MIDI files.
Joe H
-
You can't use the User memory for samples or expansion pack Voices. It's used for styles, Multi Pads, Registrations and MIDI files.
Joe H
Its also a different type of memmory.. in the processing structure its further away from the processors..
The voice memmory is very close to teh SWP 700 processors.
-
Bachus - i fully get your point, but as i said in part of my earlier post ...' i know and dont see why you cant use internal memory for expansion' ... Everything should simply be 'load and play' It cant be that difficult to homogenise it all, Seems to me they are little more than additional voices and styles. Then as i said, i am no technical expert.
I believe the 'detachment' has always been tactical ...as a second income stream, which is understandable, I do it in my own business for ancillary sales, good on Yamaha!
But if packs are going to become FOC, then just have enough memory to load them direct and a simple library to access them from, ( no manager required, just an owners password ) This would encourage more 'core product' sales in my opinion, ...It would also enable better data gathering for product takeup ...and be great for satisfying future sales trends.
buy hey ho what do i know??
I cant stress the point enough .... i am all about 'playing' and not spending time messing with files.
Just give me a keyboard that is 'self contained'
Keith
-
You can't use the User memory for samples or expansion pack Voices. It's used for styles, Multi Pads, Registrations and MIDI files.
Joe H
You can't currently do this. But one can imagine (or dream of) a firmware that is able to move voices (samples) in and out of the 4 GB sample memory as needed. So you could load a voice like you load a style or registration - on the fly.
Rainer
-
Nothing was taken away, it's just implemented differently or improved.
Joe H
Copy/paste single note from custom voice/drum to another custom voice/drum. CLEARLY not existing any more .
Was on T2,T3 and T4.
Best regards!
-
A couple of points.
Americans don’t realize that they are in the tiny minority of arranger players. In fact, as has been noted, the majority of players in America are seniors and small gig performers. What you don’t realize is that there is a whole world of cultural musicians you don’t even know about. Whether Arab, Asian, Jewish, Indian and more who are young, professional and perform for young crowds, and we charge a lot of money for it. I know multiple musicians (including myself) who charge over $2000 a gig and work over 100 times a year and the Genos or Pa4x is our instrument. And there tens of thousands of us.
So if Yamaha wants to sell more keyboards and have a bigger business market looking towards the future, not to mention people who can actually afford to pay $6k for a machine, it has to keep up not with the basic needs of Eileen and others who consistently and predictably downplay every time we ask for an upgrade, but with the emerging and current young markets of those of us who are taking music to its limits. And yes, a drum mixer, synthesizer, multi band EQ, and full editing of voices are basic requests.
And getting back to the original topic: yes I know 3gb is currently the most any keyboard offers. Kudos to Yamaha on that. But to be a truly pro keyboard, and to meet the potential of this beast, there should be options for upgrades. For example, if Yamaha would charge me another $5k for 50gb of flash, I would pay it in less than a heart beat and I would use it!
Edit: It’s not just people here in America who don’t realize the potential and market of this keyboard, I’m convinced Yamaha themselves don’t realize it!
-
A couple of points.
Americans don’t realize that they are in the tiny minority of arranger players. In fact, as has been noted, the majority of players in America are seniors and small gig performers. What you don’t realize is that there is a whole world of cultural musicians you don’t even know about. Whether Arab, Asian, Jewish, Indian and more who are young, professional and perform for young crowds, and we charge a lot of money for it. I know multiple musicians (including myself) who charge over $2000 a gig and work over 100 times a year and the Genos or Pa4x is our instrument. And there tens of thousands of us.
So if Yamaha wants to sell more keyboards and have a bigger business market looking towards the future, not to mention people who can actually afford to pay $6k for a machine, it has to keep up not with the basic needs of Eileen and others who consistently and predictably downplay every time we ask for an upgrade, but with the emerging and current young markets of those of us who are taking music to its limits. And yes, a drum mixer, synthesizer, multi band EQ, and full editing of voices are basic requests.
And getting back to the original topic: yes I know 3gb is currently the most any keyboard offers. Kudos to Yamaha on that. But to be a truly pro keyboard, and to meet the potential of this beast, there should be options for upgrades. For example, if Yamaha would charge me another $5k for 50gb of flash, I would pay it in less than a heart beat and I would use it!
Edit: It’s not just people here in America who don’t realize the potential and market of this keyboard, I’m convinced Yamaha themselves don’t realize it!
AMEN!!!!!
If I have a chance to choose between :
1. GENOS 50gb flash upgrade only
or
2. Genos2 with 5gb flash
I will choose Genos 50 gb upgrade no matter what cost is.
-
Well Choney
Thanks for the mention and by the way I am English not American. A forum is a place where everyone is entitled to put there own opinion. Yamaha like any other manufacturer has to cater for everyone and it is well known by them and others, that the majority of these keyboards are sold to Senior people who when they retire have the time and money to purchase these great keyboards. They also still gig and make good money. Whilst we have been in lock down I have listened to some great professional players just using Genos as it is and the music has been brilliant.
-
Hi Eileen,
You are a great contributor to this forum and I don’t discount your knowledge and professionalism.
But almost every time somebody asks for an upgrade or makes a feature request we can rest assured that you (and a few others) are going to discount our opinions.
Yes of course it’s a forum and everyone should express their opinions. But when all your opinion does is diminish someone else’s concern or request while providing no benefit to yourself it’s may be better left unsaid.
The requests we make do no harm to the way you use the keyboard. We are not ever asking for removal of any features. We are just requesting new features for our own needs. It doesn’t require a rebuttal each and every time.
You yourself note that the majority of these keyboards are sold to seniors. Well, that’s a real short sighted business plan, isn’t it. It basically guarantees the demise of this product within a decade or two. Your own words prove that Yamaha needs to modernize and cater to the evolution of music creation.
We aren’t asking for change. We are asking for new features.
Respectfully.
-
But almost every time somebody asks for an upgrade or makes a feature request we can rest assured that you (and a few others) are going to discount our opinions.
Yes of course it’s a forum and everyone should express their opinions. But when all your opinion does is diminish someone else’s concern or request while providing no benefit to yourself it’s may be better left unsaid.
The requests we make do no harm to the way you use the keyboard. We are not ever asking for removal of any features. We are just requesting new features for our own needs. It doesn’t require a rebuttal each and every time.
We aren’t asking for change. We are asking for new features.
Respectfully.
YES!!! We aren’t asking for change. We are asking for new features.
Well said Chony!!
Best regards to all musicians from all around of the world !!
-
You yourself note that the majority of these keyboards are sold to seniors. Well, that’s a real short sighted business plan, isn’t it. It basically guarantees the demise of this product within a decade or two.
That is the plain and hard truth.
Having the bulk of your buyers aged 70÷90 is not a future proof business. No need to have a master in business administration to understand that.
Sure, you can sell them today outdated tech at jewelry prices, but then the lucrative business will soon end. And the seniors of tomorrow will be much more tech savvy (and probably with less money, and with today's government debts to pay).
-
Having the bulk of your buyers aged 70÷90 is not a future proof business. No need to have a master in business administration to understand that.
So true...
But for everyone else Yamaha is selling the Montage and modx?
I can see Yamaha moving features of the Genos towards the Montage line, while the arrangerbuiseness slowly dies..
Doyou know Ketron’s launchpad feature? I think every montage player would love arranger tech in such a pro form...
-
Hi
Oh the exitement of free packs
Destroys your memory!! ;D
Why not get all the sounds that you want and put them all in a couple of packs and leave the duff ones out that you do not use?
In other words ,clean out the junk and have a tidy house.
All the best
John
-
Yes John,
I totally agree. What is the use of wasting memory on things you won't use.
-
Yes... this is the very point I was making earlier in the thread... if these files are available now free of charge .. Then simply offer a library of available specific and individual voices and styles from any of the packs collectively for owners to 'load and play' the ones they like..who needs a manager? Monitoring downloads to owners would profile user trends for specific consumer needs and popularity...
Would solve onboard flash shortage...
Tesco and the like have been consumer profiling for years...why not Yamaha ... they are missing a trick in my view ..
Keith
-
hi
Cant see that profiling working
Yamaha will not send me a bottle of whiskey or a packet of hob nobs!!!
All the best
John ;D
-
The way round this is to just load the voices you are going to use by taking the ticks out of the ones you don't want.
Same with the styles. If you only like four voices in the pack then just load those.
-
hi
Cant see that profiling working
Yamaha will not send me a bottle of whiskey or a packet of hob nobs!!!
All the best
John ;D
That would NOT be the case here - nothing would need to be 'sent' for free ....other than files contained in the expansion which are already available FOC.....all simply done on-line ...by download analytics, a user profile could easily be achieved looking at what owners choose to download and dont, with feedback requested for likes/dislikes by Yamaha . The system could easily be password protected to avoid abuse.
This in turn would be a great basis to provide more popular and suitable future file publications/releases ....win win..
And i am talking here about individual file componets of packs in a communal library , not as they are now, in a 'pack' form and need to be managed.... not sure if this is possible? .
-
I can't see that working unless they set up a site like CMS has with each voice an individual pack. They seem to have enough problems with there site already without adding to them.
As you say a lot of people just want to switch on and play and are quite happy to just use on board voices and they enjoy it. Others like to experiment with sounds and styles to make there music a little different. What ever you like to do the main thing always is that you enjoy it.
-
Hi --
Just read through the thread. Bachus (and others) have done a good job explaining the current memory situation. Sorry I haven't posted much lately, but I'm just trying to play more and enjoy life near our grandson.
The hardware in Genos and even the SX700/SX900 is divided into two parts: host computer and tone generation. The host computer handles styles and sequencing. The tone generator section makes all the noise. :) So, there is memory in the host computer (USER memory) and separate memory in the tone generator (voice expansion memory). The type of memory used in each is specialized for the task: eMMC flash for USER memory and NAND flash memory for the tone generator.
The tone generator is itself a very specialized, parallel computing system. It has its own DSP RAM, etc. The factory waveforms and user waveforms (AKA "samples") reside in the same physical NAND flash memory belonging to the tone generator. It is the same kind of NAND flash used in PC SSDs. Yamaha eliminated the SATA bus to lower cost and increase access speed. The expansion memory is soldered to the printed circuit board and, thus, is not easily removed and replaced. Even if you replaced it, as Bachus pointed out, the software would not recognize the additional memory capacity.
Yamaha's tone generator is designed for the long run. It is used in synths and high-end digital pianos, too. The tone generator has ports and features which are not currently used. They are for future products. You might feel gypped, but that's the way the game is played -- spread design cost over 5 to 10 years and multiple evolving product cycles.
Hope this helps -- pj
-
Thank you very much, PJ, for this brief but comprehensive explanation on "Memory types of the Genos"! :)
Best regards,
Chris
-
The tone generator is itself a very specialized, parallel computing system. It has its own DSP RAM, etc. The factory waveforms and user waveforms (AKA "samples") reside in the same physical NAND flash memory belonging to the tone generator. It is the same kind of NAND flash used in PC SSDs. Yamaha eliminated the SATA bus to lower cost and increase access speed. The expansion memory is soldered to the printed circuit board and, thus, is not easily removed and replaced.
Just checked on Amazon. Cutting edge NAND SSDs, for a 500 Gb size, cost on average 50€, including case, package, and shipping to your door.
The 4 Gb soldered on the Genos (and top of the line Montage synth) is worth therefore less than 40 cents. I clearly see why they did not include a connector to expand the storage: it would cost much more than the provided NAND chips.
There are also around devices with specialised parallel computing systems (many cores cpus in the gigahertz range, plus hundred cores gpus, sourcing data from system ram (with tens of gb/s of bandwidth)) that cost only a few tens of €. The whole device, not only the computing chips. I am talking about smartphones and single board computers. Low power fanless devices mostly running on batteries.
So the whole point of Yamaha proprietary HW architecture (used on all their products, most of which, in terms of units sold, are toys class products sold at toys prices) is to cost as low as possible. In the peanuts range.
If then they can also manage to include the peanuts in a 4k€ product and sell it, that is extremely good for them.
-
If you're sure that you know how to build keyboards using parts from Amazon, why don't you start your own keyboard company?
I'm sure that in a short time, with all the knowledge you have (the market needs, where to find spare parts for peanuts etc. etc.) beating companies like Yamaha (130+ in the market), Korg (60 years in business), Roland (50 years building reliable machines) it is a mater of a few months...
-
Honestly there really is some rubbish posted on here. I really don't know where people get there prices from. Cloud cookoo land I would suspect or some where that peanuts are plentiful. ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
Why cant we just load the styles only and save the exp pack on a USB ? Why do I have to load it thru YEM ? Again...why not load exp packs on USB and use it as you need it instead of running out of space on my T-5 ? EI ...load exp packs all on usb and use it as you need it ?
Gary
-
Because these are sampled sounds and some of the packs are quite large they require handling differently that is why we have the Flash memory on our keyboards. Once a pack is loaded in you can them save the registrations from it and also the styles to a USB stick but these may be using some of the new voices in them. If you then remove the pack you will probably have to re-voice some of the styles with your own choices.
-
You are sooooooo right blackpool !!!!