PSR Tutorial Forum
Genos (12 Boards) => Genos - General => Topic started by: chony on April 22, 2020, 07:31:50 PM
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How do I play a G/A in "AI Fingering".
When I play A and the G on top I get A7
When I play A and GBD next octave up I get Gadd9
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chony,
I can't find a way to get it myself. It will be interesting to see what others do.
Rick D.
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You can do a Gadd9/A if that would sound OK (It should not clash because the 9th is an A as well).
Play ABDGA the last two played with the thumb rather than break fingers!
John
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Don't have a Yammie plugged in next to the computer, but.....
I think A B G should be the easiest way to get close to this. The display will say G*/A. Not absolutely perfect but probably close enough 90% of the time and doesn't have the 9th that you don't really want.
This will work for all major chords that are suspended over their major 2nds. What you're doing is omitting the 5th of the main chord.
AI is a most wonderful thing, doing more than I think even Yamaha think it can (they didn't invent it!) and more than is covered in Jackie Marsden's excellent articles in Yamaha Club Magazine. I've been asked to write a definitive guide to AI Fingered mode but even in lockdown there seems to be too many things on the list to be done first! ;D
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hello all,
Respectfully, may I suggest that G/A was not meant to be played using AI fingering but rather Fingered on Bass or even Fingured
I know this does not directly solve your issue.........but its my opinion only
regards
Ron
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Thanks Ron - that is exactly what I was going to suggest.
Chony - One way to play the G/A type chords (chord/bass note) is to set "style fingering" to 'Fingered on Bass'.
See the PDF at this link for reference...(a page from my Yamaha Reference Manual).
https://app.box.com/s/ni5jegx8a0rap3ttgvg03njceejbb5mf
You do lose the "AI" software feature in doing this however...
So, the info that Chris has offered below (click on link and read) may have the answer you are looking for about the "AI fingered" setting.
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Hi all,
here is a link to the "AI Fingered Workshop by Heidrun Dolde" (German version):
https://heidruns-musikerseiten.de/media/download/pdf/workshops/style/AI-Fingered_HeidrunDolde.pdf
I translated this document into English on this site: >>> https://www.onlinedoctranslator.com/en/translationform
You can download the resulting English version here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ndc0xlefbxbudma/AI-Fingered_HeidrunDolde.de.en.pdf?dl=0
(You do NOT have to register or log in to this Dropbox site! If a corresponding window should appear, please simply click on the "X" to close the window. :)
Maybe this will help some of you here. :)
Best regards,
Chris
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You can do a Gadd9/A if that would sound OK (It should not clash because the 9th is an A as well).
Play ABDGA the last two played with the thumb rather than break fingers!
John
I did some double-checking on my keyboard.
John is on to something with the AI fingered, although it is awkward to say the least.
If you use my original suggestion of "Fingered on Bass", you can achieve what he has said by only playing 4 notes.
Start with a 4 note G chord.
From the left, play the first G, as well as B, D, & G (octave).
Then change the bass note - from the left, play the first A, with the B. D, G - your display will show Gadd9/A.
As John says that should do the job for you since the 9th of chord G is the A.
If playing 4 notes is too much, you can play the A, B & D only - then your display will show Bm7/A which will sound similar, depending on the melody notes.
Hope this helps!
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(https://i.ibb.co/PxFCxV6/IMG-20200425-085340.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/644Mtwr/IMG-20200425-085353-BURST002.jpg)
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Actually it is quite easy to play G/A using AI Fingered:
- Play the G chord in first inversion (b-d-g)
- Add the bass note A (a-b-d-g) which result in a Gadd9 chord
- Add a A# note (a-a#-b-d-g), voila: G/A
This fingering needs all of your five fingers, but it's quite easy. Simple rule:
- use fingers 3-2-1 to play the base chord in 1st inversion
- add the bass note using the 5th finger
- put the 4th finger at the key between the 3rd and 5th
Note that the a# does not belong to the G/A chord, so you better don't use LEFT=ON with this fingering.
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Hi
Check the style you are using. There are two types, Pro and Session. Session styles are designed to create more complex chords out of what you play. For example, play a g7 and you could get a g13. They do not work for every song but can be great at adding some complex harmony and because they change what you actually play they can give odd results when you are looking for a specific chord. There are not to many of them.
Just a thought.
Regards
Ed B
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Actually it is quite easy to play G/A using AI Fingered:
- Play the G chord in first inversion (b-d-g)
- Add the bass note A (a-b-d-g) which result in a Gadd9 chord
- Add a A# note (a-a#-b-d-g), voila: G/A
This fingering needs all of your five fingers, but it's quite easy. Simple rule:
- use fingers 3-2-1 to play the base chord in 1st inversion
- add the bass note using the 5th finger
- put the 4th finger at the key between the 3rd and 5th
Note that the a# does not belong to the G/A chord, so you better don't use LEFT=ON with this fingering.
I am studying now the AI fingering mode, but G/A is G chord is g-b-d, so this make no sense G/A because a is not belonging to the G chord (right?)
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I am studying now the AI fingering mode, but G/A is G chord is g-b-d, so this make no sense G/A because a is not belonging to the G chord (right?)
Hi janamdo.
The letter after "/" character will say which note will play in bass (or by bass instrument). There could be a lot of combinations in real music band, which one instrument could play a chord, another one other chord, bass will play one or a combination of notes, so finally it wil be a gorgeous combination 😁
G major or minor is a simple chord, but could be a lot of complex chords related to this simple one:
G add9 contains A key. But if this nineth is taken by another instrument, not by the accompagnament instrument, the sound is more pure. Think about the guitar to sing G-B-D and the bass will sing A... Nice... Now think about guitar playing A-B-D and bass playing G key... This will be other sound... There are a lot of combinations between instruments, so that is AI for, to take this advantages of multiple instruments, everyone singing some special notes/chords and the sound to be more pure, clean...
Regards,
Vali
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Hi Vali,
As i understand it now its a "split chord"
Here i do have a example of eleventh chord as a chord split : G11 (6 notes) ) -> F/G -> Dm 7/G ( two split chords made out of G11)
The bass note here is G , so for example F/G is a bass note G + F maj triad
The whole AI fingering is not understood by me , while all other fingering modes are not difficult to understand
Regards
Jan
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Split chords - ???? No idea what you mean there.
The bass note in a slash chord does not have to be part of the normal chord. A good example is a descending bass run C C/B C/A/ C/G. Or even a chromatic bass run. The bass notes are just added to the chord. You could of course give them names like C7, or C6 to add these notes. But even that is not strictly correct because the note added is conventionally not the bass note, but a higher note. Slash chords are just what they are - a chord played against a different bass. I think you are trying to find a rationale for something that just 'is'.
Now how the AI works is a different matter. It might be very difficult to play some of theses combinations even using AI. A better way is when you are using a multi note lead instrument like piano, is to finger some of the chord in the RH. With the bass in the left. The AI is often smart enough to get this. My experience of AI is that it is not perfect, but pretty good at getting it most of the time. Its even better when you use AI full keyboard playing organ or piano. Even Andy G, a true expert in this area, admits that there are some mysteries in the way AI software works that he still hasn't completely fathomed.
Mike
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No - AI fingered it not means splitting chords :)
AI Fingered mode helps you take other note in Bass than the chord played by the acmp...
For example:
If you want to play G but you need D in bass, you will play D1+G1 keys (D and G from the same octave).
If you want to play E but you need Ab in bass, you will play those two keys, but the bass note you want to play is the left-most key, so it will be Ab1+E2.
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If you want to play E but you need A# in bass, you will play those two keys, but the bass note you want to play is the left-most key, so it will be A#1+E2.
That does not work, I have an S970 next to me and I'm playing it as a type this. In AI Fingered mode, A#1 + E2 produces Bb b5 (Bb with a flattened 5th), which is what I'd expect. From a 'standing start', the keyboard chooses Bb rather than A# for the name of the chord. To get E/A# (E over A#) I needed to set the split point to G# (you don't need to do this on the Genos with its extra keys) and play A# B E G#.
If you play A#1 + E2 in Fingered On Bass mode, it doesn't play a chord at all.
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Sorry, my mistake, because hurrying :-[
It was about E/Ab, not A#...
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AI Fingered mode helps you take other note in Bass than the chord played by the acmp...
The reason for playing another Bass note ( not default) on the keyboard with acmp is only for a different chord fingering then or... getting a other sound out of to the acmp?
There are only some "other bassnotes" allowed if they are musical to my ear then?
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You play slash chords for the same reason you play any chord - because it is the most appropriate chords for the music. You can also just play the basic G chord and it will not sound too bad, maybe not perfect but that is a matter of balance between what you can easily manage in live playing and what is perfect. My guess is that your playing is not yet at the 'perfect ' stage so see my last comment.
Dont get confused between the chord and how you need to play it on an arranger. Arrangers have some limitations in reproducing unusual or advanced chords, and the designers have had to devise unconventional and sometimes quite difficult fingering methods to 'instruct' the keyboard how to behave to achieve these chords. Some of these are not easy for the learner, or even the more advanced player.
I am studying now the AI fingering mode, but G/A is G chord is g-b-d, so this make no sense G/A because a is not belonging to the G chord (right?)
This statement tells me that you are not grasping the concept of advanced chords. It would be like saying that Gb9 makes no sense because it contains the note Ab which is not part of chord of G. But it is part of the chord Gb9, because that is exactly what a Gb9 chord is. An instruction to play chord G with and Ab added. In the same way G/A ior G /Bb are legitimate chords. They are similar but different chords from G because it is an instruction to play a chord G with the root replaced by A or Bb. The sound difference can be quite subtle.
I also wonder if you are not getting away too deeply into something which you shouldn't be worrying about yet. It is indicated from your questions and statements that you are at the novice stage both musically and playing wise. Most people should not need to worry too much about things like slash chords or complicated fingering methods at that stage. There are mountains still to climb just mastering the 'easy' stuff.
Mike
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Thanks,
Its a personal interest to master chords, but the subject is vast.
For composing with computer also needed.
Did not a professional study for chords , so it makes it harder to get grip on.
Well there are triads, 7,9,11,13 chords roughly
What is the concept of advanced chord ( first a definition of it )
"By ‘more advanced’ we mean chords that go slightly beyond the basic major, minor and seventh chords that most beginner guitarists know."
Its true i did not study those chord beyond basics systematically..
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'Advanced' is a general term used to indicate less common usually altered chords and progressions.
Actually chords are very simple, not vast, because there are only 3 common chords, - major, minor and diminished. Everything else is an altered or extended version of these and the alterations are generally obvious from the chord name. Eg 9th means add a 9th, 6th means add a 6th, b9 means add a flattened 9th. Sometimes there is more than one alteration. The numbers are just the note of the scale in that key. One slight complication is that there are two common versions of a 7th you have to learn to recognize.
The theory is simple, the difficult part is learning to play them seamlessly, without thinking. This is where the real work is because if you can't play a G, Em, Am, D progression rapidly and easily, almost without thinking, there is little point worrying about whether it should be G6, or Gb9, or G/A!
Dont overthink the theory, just learn to play the basics. Move on when it is mastered.
BTW - in many cases the extended chord designation is just a formal recognition of a note that is simultaneously happening in the melody, and doesn't have to be included in the chord because you are playing it anyway the melody.
Mike
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I do have here good studymaterial for learning playing the basic chords
You are right, i totally agree with you, this is the first step : "just learn to play the basics. Move on when it is mastered".
Thanks for the summarize of the chords very helpful for further study
As i understand it now : alterations are for triads and chance a existing triad note into another note (sus, aug, dim triads) and extensions (adding note(s) to triads) in order to get 6, 7,9,11,13 chords
You wrote: not clear what you mean with this ?
BTW - in many cases the extended chord designation is just a formal recognition of a note that is simultaneously happening in the melody, and doesn't have to be included in the chord because you are playing it anyway the melody.
Jan
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BTW - in many cases the extended chord designation is just a formal recognition of a note that is simultaneously happening in the melody, and doesn't have to be included in the chord because you are playing it anyway the melody.
Mike
@janamdo
Hi Jan,
maybe this example explains what Mike is meaning here:
Assuming you play the C major chord (C - E - G) with your left hand, and the melody (right hand) plays the notes C, B, A, G one after the other.
Instead of constantly playing C major, you could alternatively play the following chords to these 4 melody notes:
C (C - E - G)
Cmaj7 (C - E - G - B)
C/A (= C major chord over the Bass note "A") or play Am (A - C - E) or play Am7 (A - C - E - G)
C/G (= C major chord over the Bass note "G")
You could also try to play the following with the "AI Fingered" setting:
C major chord: Play the notes C - E - G or simply play it with only two fingers: C - E
Then play the following "two-finger chords" (while watching the chord display):
B - C
A - C
G - C
Edit:
You can generally "force" a certain desired Bass note by playing this note as the lowest note of the chord and octaving it.
Example: For C/E (= C major chord over Bass note E) play the notes E - G - C - E.
But in the AI Fingered mode this so-called "Bass control" can in many cases be done much more easily (see above).
Hope this helps!
Best regards,
Chris
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Hi Jan,
maybe this example explains what Mike is meaning here:
Unfortanely i don't understand this example yet : C/A ? and more
But if a melodynote is also a part of the chord , then a simpler chord notation can be done
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If the extended note is in the melody then there is usually no sound advantage to adding it to the lh chord because by playing it in the melody you are already adding it to the harmony. The chord - or harmony - is not just what you play in your lh, it’s made up of everything you play.
Does this mean that the person writing the arrangement could have left it out of the chord notation - maybe yes. I don’t know why they do it sometimes. They might just think it’s technically correct, or for example jazz guitar players strumming accompaniment without melody often like to alter chords almost every beat so it’s useful to them. There is no absolute rule here.
At the end of the day music is an art form with choices, it’s not math or science. You should not try to over analyze. Does it sound good is what matters.
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Unfortanely i don't understand this example yet : C/A ? and more
But if a melodynote is also a part of the chord , then a simpler chord notation can be done
Only if you’re using AI fingering. If you’re using normal fingering, you need the correct chord notated.
Cheers,
Fred
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Just imagine you are an organ player and have a set of bass pedals. Using different bass notes with chords enhances the overall sound to a piece. The cord of C will often have an E bass note played and sounds very nice indeed. If playing something like Whiter Shade of Pale the bass pattern can be used by using AI fingering and really makes the song.
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Fred
I am not referring to the AI ability to deduce chords the chord by rh notes, but simply the fact that the harmony note is already being played, so there is little or no gain in the effect if adding it also in the lh chord. Doesn’t matter if it is AI mode or not. That would not be true for a slash chord where the effect is from the bass, but it’s largely true for extended chords.
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Just imagine you are an organ player and have a set of bass pedals. Using different bass notes with chords enhances the overall sound to a piece. The cord of C will often have an E bass note played and sounds very nice indeed. If playing something like Whiter Shade of Pale the bass pattern can be used by using AI fingering and really makes the song.
Thanks
Is it about adding a bass note to a chord then it becomes more clear
Then C/A makes sense
I will lolok at the example from Chris again, trying to get it clear what the idea here is
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I am not referring to the AI ability to deduce chords the chord by rh notes, but simply the fact that the harmony note is already being played, so there is little or no gain in the effect if adding it also in the lh chord. Doesn’t matter if it is AI mode or not. That would not be true for a slash chord where the effect is from the bass, but it’s largely true for extended chords.
I disagree.
Suppose the melody note is A, and the chord is C6. You’re saying there’s no difference between play a C chord, or a C6 chord. But there is a difference. A C6 chord provides a fuller sound.
Cheers,
Fred
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Fred - I dont disagree with you that it sometimes can make a difference to the sound and players should take account of that. Might depend on whether you have a left hand voice on or the construction of the style. And certainly no reason not to double up on notes where you think it makes a difference to the fullness of the sound. But its horses for courses and bear in mind I was giving advice here to someone who is very much a novice and getting himself tied in knots about fancy chords - what they mean and how to play them. He is probably months - or maybe years - away from worrying about this.
For myself I play 6th and 7th chords all the time almost as a matter of course, for the sound it provides, even if the melody notes doubles up, or when not actually called for by the music. But probably would not bother too much with 9ths and 11ths especially where the melody covered it because that seldom makes a noticeable difference. The flattened extensions I find make a big difference though and I usually try to catch those, although often in the rh rather than the lh. Being a two handed player makes most of these extended chords much easier to handle.
Mike
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@janamdo
Hi Jan,
for better understanding, I have edited my post above. :)
Best regards,
Chris
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@janamdo
Hi Jan,
for better understanding, I have edited my post above. :)
Best regards,
Chris
Hi Chris,
I noticed it already your inprovements.
I seems to me that you first came up with piano voicing with rh and lh example without acmp
As second example using the acmp with ai fingered chords
Best regards
Jan
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I can see that with playing the melody with different chords that doubling notes can occur
If i play a C triad (C-E-G ) with a B melody note i hear a Cmaj7 chord
So you could notate this as a C triad too , but if you play the Cmaj7 together with a B melody note , then it sounds different , because the B is doubled.
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The musical theory behind not needing to double notes is sound and, if you dig into it, the 'rules' are quite complex as to what is 'right' or 'wrong'.
But in practice, and especially when related to playing arranger keyboard (or indeed it's 'daddy', the home organ) doubling of notes happens all the time and it does actually add quite a bit to the sound. It's also worth remembering that the doubled note in the melody is often just passing, whereas the chord may be held for a bar or more.
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hi all AI is great and all you have to do is have alook at chord tutor on board it explains it there also i think people make it hard for themselfs when it is very easy to use i remember Richard bower showing me the easy way of AI and this can be found on the net also like andy says Jacki marsden done it in yamaha club magazine :)
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Thanks
Now i have found the jacki marsden pdf from 2005.
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i think people make it hard for themselfs when it is very easy to use i remember Richard bower showing me the easy way of AI and this can be found on the net also like andy says Jacki marsden done it in yamaha club magazine :)
That's the benefit of the AI fingering ofcourse: its easier for playing chords on the ACMP
But there is no info of all ins and outs of the AI fingering
Although there is a book Styles & Patterns
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with the left hand G as a bass tone
and take the right hand for the normal A chord
that´s it!
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with the left hand G as a bass tone
and take the right hand for the normal A chord
that´s it!
Except G/A is a G chord with an A bass, not A chord G bass. And how does it work if chording in the right hand doesn’t fit the melody?
Cheers,
Fred
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I found, through trial and error, this way to play the G/A which also is pretty ergonomic and suitable for players with smaller hands.
So the way I think about it is naturally A in the bass. Then A# (which may be the "trigger" note letting the computer know that this meant to be a slash chord), and then simply G in 1st inversion.
This logic seems to work for all slash chords: Play bass with the pinky along with half step up from bass note, and then with remaining 3 fingers, play the main chord in 1st inversion.
I have the Genos set-up in AI Fingered.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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BartW, and Dromeus,
Thanks for the tip! Yes, using First inversion is a very good point for AI Fingered.
Gmaj --- BDG
G/D --- DG
G/B --- BG
G/A --- AA#BDG
Works exactly like that on SX-900. A little awkward for G/A, but that's how it works.
Jerry
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Thanks
Works the same as for the SX600.
But this chord G/A and with some other bass notes not belonging to the triad G , makes this musical sense for the ACMP ?
Yes, i do see here a songexample of a descending bass chord progression as a AI chord exercise :)
The bass is descending from C - B- A-G- F in a serie of chords with bass notes not belonging to the chords
C-C/B -Am-Am/G-F- D/ F#-G-G7/F
Note: C/B needs only note c and below note B, why is C/A so difficult ?..no its different in the example: C/B is CM7/B
But that is also good a Ctriad with a addded seventh note
Jan
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For the sheettwriter to use an G/A chord seems that he wants to create tension and the next chord will be release or a "walking" bass or something.
If I am not mistaken,when a whole orchestra(or band) involved (as it happens with the styles),
usually G is the chord that the orchestra will play, while only the bass player will play the A note.
In which piece of music did you see that chord type so maybe we can understand why he is using the G/A symbol?
All types, either G/A or Gsus2 or Gadd9 (A note=2nd note or 9th note in the scale of G) are telling you that you will need the A note along with two notes of the G chord at least.
Maybe the sheet music indicates that the left hand is playing just the two notes G3 and A2 which is not even a chord but just a part of some chord (In that case we have to replace this part with an actual chord type that sounds good).
In any case, I wouldn't worry in your place if I would see the G/A or any other "weird" chord name.
Just look what are the notes of the left hand are if it is a piano sheet, what are the notes of the melody and of course use your eras.
The important thing is not to create disharmony for no reason.
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In which piece of music did you see that chord type so maybe we can understand why he is using the G/A symbol?
Thanks
It was a question from someone else ( see first post )
But a descending bass with the AI fingering can be done with two fingers , but there is then no freedom of choosing a own chord
CM7/B - B/A-A/G-G/F- FM7/E-E/D-D/C....
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C/B needs only note c and below note B, why is C/A so difficult ?
Because the notes a - c would be interpret as Am.
This is the way I look at the chord modes:
Fingered mode is based on musical notes played. The ACMP interprets every played note as part of the chord and/or bass.
- Pros: It's easy to play, because you can use chord inversions and therefore your hand doesn't need to jump around as much. You can play the exact left hand notes on a piano and it will sound musically correct.
- Cons: Some songs played this way will sound different from the original, when a song uses slash chords.
Fingered on Bass mode is still based on musical notes played.
- Pros: You can play some slash chords and sound more like the original song. You can still play the exact left hand notes on a piano and it will sound musically correct.
- Cons: Your hand has to move more when you play non-slash chords in succession.
AI Fingered mode is a combination of musical notes and "instructional" notes played. Sometimes notes are meant to be part of the chord and/or bass, and sometimes they are only meant to give the ACMP an instruction (and therefore make no musical sense).
- Pros: You can play chord inversions and most slash chords. You can also play additional chords that are impossible with the other two modes. You will not have the same musical freedom as an organ, but you do have the most freedom possible on a keyboard.
- Cons: A bit harder to learn, because you have to learn the "instructional" notes. You canNOT use the exact left hand notes on a piano, since the instructional notes are not meant to be played with a sound.
Maarten
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why is C/A so difficult ?
I am just very grateful that I can play a C/A chord at all!
As far as I know, C/A is impossible to play on other brand keyboards.
Maarten
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Arrangers have limitations, and you can't do everything. The AI mode is a way to remove some of the limitations, but it still can't do everything and there are definite trade offs. That is not unique to arrangers, all musical instruments have limitations, - try playing bagpipes!
Mike
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Because the notes a - c would be interpret as Am.
This is the way I look at the chord modes:
Maarten,
Thanks, I like the way you have categorized the chord modes, but still a little puzzled by "instructional" notes to the ACMP.
Could you give us an example to explain what instructional notes do, a little further?
Jerry
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Hoi Maarten
Bedankt voor je uitleg
Laat ons even zien wat er zoal mogelijk is met de AI fingering en hoe je er tegen aan moet kijken
Jan
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Could you give us an example to explain what instructional notes do, a little further?
Hi Jerry,
Five examples:
- Cancel chord (i.e. c-c#-d or a#-b-c (notes from left to right))
Plays a crash cymbal and stops all harmonic tracks (only drums and percussion keep running). These three notes make little musical sense. - C/E (e-c)
The instructional note is the missing g. The non-bass harmonic style tracks will play as if you had played with the g note. Same for C/G. - C/Bb (b(flat)-c)
The instructional notes are the missing e and g notes. The style will play as if you pressed them. - F/G (g-g#-a-c-f)
g-g#-a instruct the ACMP to play a g bass note and combined with c and f instruct the other harmonic style tracks to play an F chord. The g# in this case is an instructional note and not heard in the style. - "C/C" (c-e-g-c)
"C/C" is not an existing chord, but I use the notation here to indicate that the extra c note (called "doubling" or "octaving"(?)) instructs the bass to play a c note and only a c note. You will hear this only with styles with a moving or walking bass line, for example Jazz styles. On the Genos, take ClassicBigBand for example. The bass plays with a C chord (c-e-g): |c c g g|c c e g| (repeat). However, when you double the c note, the bass will play: |c c c c|c c c c|, which can be very useful in some situations. Although the extra c is musically correct, I do see it as an instructional note.
Maarten
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Hi Maarten
Thanks for your explanation
Show us what is possible with the AI fingering and how one should look at it
Jan
Hi Jan,
Since this is an English forum, please keep your posts in English. Then we can all benefit and respond to your question.
AI fingering is a clever way to enable you to play chords that would otherwise be very difficult or impossible to play.
Maarten
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Hi Maarten,
Thanks for that great explanation! Makes good sense,
Cheers, Jerry
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the easiest way to do this, is to use two hands:
left hand > for the tone A (perhaps an octave)
right hand > for the chord G-major
that´s it.....
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the easiest way to do this, is to use two hands:
left hand > for the tone A (perhaps an octave)
right hand > for the chord G-major
that´s it.....
And where do you play the melody?
Cheers,
Fred
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We need at least four hands, would be great😀
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Hi Jan,
AI fingering is a clever way to enable you to play chords that would otherwise be very difficult or impossible to play.
Maarten
Thanks
Is it with the multi- finger chord mode it doesn't matter what chordshape you play ..they are all sounding the same
Example : a C triad and his two inversions sounds the same.
Is it with the AI- fingering mode that it does matter what chord shape is played ?
So A C triad and his two inversions are all three different sounding.
Then in AI fingering mode playing chords not possible in other fingering chord modes
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As I've often said, AI Fingered Mode is 'transparent' to normal chords, so you can play a C chord as C E G, E G C or G C E (the most useful inversion). You could even play it in open harmony as C G E, if your hand span is wide enough! AI doesn't mind how you do it, so you play the same notes in your chords as you would in Multifinger mode.
AI effectively only 'switches on' when you play something like C/G or a 'rootless' chord. Rootless? E Bb D will give you C9, and F B E will give you G13, for example. And if you want some exotics, take the opening chords of Somdheim's "The Ladies Who Lunch" from the musical "Company". F6/9 alternates with Cm9/F. Playing F G A C D, alternating with F Bb D Eb works well for this, though the fingering is tricky - 5 3 1 2, with 2nd crossing over thumb to play the Eb!
Maarten's F/G is a wee bit too complex for most players. If you just play G A F, you'll get F*/G. Not 100% accurate musically but close enough 99% of the time, and this type of chord has been regularly used by my high level students in their Diploma exams. If it's good enough to satisfy the sharp ears of the top level examiners, it should be OK for all the rest of us! :)
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I was not clear enough i think
In AI mode you could play a inversion with two notes : root + 3th +5th (C triad)
Also the same as in the multi- fingered mode, but there is no difference in sound for a C triad.
I tested with AI- fingering and i made also no difference in sound, so it is the same situation as with the multi-fingering , it doesn't matter for the sound
For Ai-fingering it matters only the way of playing the chord
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While it is true that AI setting provides some chord shortcuts for chord playing, I always thought the major distinguishing feature for AI was that it could work out some chords from what is being played in total ie the rh and the overall chord progression. Isn’t that the whole point of calling it an Artificial
Intelligence setting?
Mike
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I think a lot of us use this because for some it is easier than using the On Bass fingering if you are not sure of your inversions to give you the right Bass Note that will be written in music as a slashed Chord.
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Yes, I get that Eileen. And it might be convenient but it’s hardly Artificial
Intelligence when the player provides the instructional notes.
Mike
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Well I think the original poster has had his question answered quite a few times on here and just what AI does in letting you perform Slash chords easily.
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Thanks
It was a question from someone else ( see first post )
But a descending bass with the AI fingering can be done with two fingers , but there is then no freedom of choosing a own chord
CM7/B - B/A-A/G-G/F- FM7/E-E/D-D/C....
Hi Jarambo,
CM7/B it can be displayed on the keyboard on the AI fingering mode if you push all the right keys
B/A it is displayed as B7
A/G it is displayed as A7
G/F it is displayed as G7
FM7/E it can be displayed on the keyboard on the AI fingering mode
E/D it is displayed as E7
D/C it is displayed as D7
All the 7ths that are being displayed are correct, because these are the invertions of the 7ths many of us use when we play nearly all the chords in just one octave range.
Sorry but I cannot understand what is the problem although I don't think I would try to play chords like FM7/E.
Not in my level at least.I would definitely simplified the chord to just match with the notes of the melody at that part.
Maybe if I was just strumming a guitar in every beat I would play whatever unusual sophisticated chord.
But as long as you want to play any kind of chord in any kind of inversion just press all the right keys and add a piano sound to the left hand while you are playing along with the style.
Is there something that doesn't sound right to your ears when playing with the AI finger or any other type of chord fingering on your keyboard?
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Hello.
When I have to play a diferent bass in a chord, like G/A, I change to "Fingered on Bass" mode. Then, just play the bass key with the left most key. I always do that and works very well.
The problem is: When you change to "Fingered on Bass" mode, maybe your normal chords start to sound wrong, because you normaly play invertions...
To correct that, just a Tip: You can use "Fingered on Bass" mode in a few (or just one) bar. Just use registrations to change the Fingered mode. So, before the split chord, you can press a registration button and change to Fingered on Bass, make the split chord, and after that press other registration and change back to your normal mode. This way, you can go on with your normal chords until you find a splited one... Is better to press a registration button than play the entire song with chords you may don't know. 8)
Regards,
Pedro
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I always thought the major distinguishing feature for AI was that it could work out some chords from what is being played in total ie the rh and the overall chord progression.
You mean the full keyboard ACMP mode. That has nothing to do with AI, as far as I know.
Isn’t that the whole point of calling it an Artificial Intelligence setting?
The point of AI is that it takes the previous chord into consideration when you play an AI "shortcut".
Example: When you play a C chord followed by the notes b_flat-c (from left to right), you get a C/Bb. However, when you first play a Cm chord, you'll get Cm/Bb.
Maarten
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Maarten's F/G is a wee bit too complex for most players. If you just play G A F, you'll get F*/G.
Hi Andy,
Thanks for the tip of F*/G as a nice and easier to play approximation!
Another one is g-a-c-f-g which will give you Fadd9/G. You'll need larger hands and is still a bit complex to play.
It's just great to have these options.
Example: The song Piano man from Billy Joel has a chord progression: | F F/G | C |
First I played it with g-a-c-f (Fadd9/G) in Fingered on Bass mode. When I discovered it could be played with a "clean" F triad as F/G in AI Fingered mode I started using that. To my ears it suits this song better. (I will try it with F*/G soon.)
It's all about choice: what sounds best for a song and what suits your playing style the best.
Maarten
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Hi Andy,
Another one is g-a-c-f-g which will give you Fadd9/G. You'll need larger hands and is still a bit complex to play.
The smart chord feature can be found on a psr sx600, but with this... complex chords (mainstream ) can be played with one finger for Jazz in any key.
F6^9 for C major and F7 for Gmajor for example
A easy start for people who want to play a jazzy song without first to study right away the advanced chords
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Sorry but I cannot understand what is the problem although I don't think I would try to play chords like FM7/E.
Not in my level at least.I would definitely simplified the chord to just match with the notes of the melody at that part.
Maybe if I was just strumming a guitar in every beat I would play whatever unusual sophisticated chord.
But as long as you want to play any kind of chord in any kind of inversion just press all the right keys and add a piano sound to the left hand while you are playing along with the style.
Is there something that doesn't sound right to your ears when playing with the AI finger or any other type of chord fingering on your keyboard?
Thanks
It was about a descending bass example : C-C/B-Am-Am/G-F-D/F#-G-G7/F from Bach's Air on A G string
With the AI fingering : one wholetone below a root tone (bass ) gives a slash chord : C/B -> B is bass note now
This chord C/B is a triad with the C replaced by the b note ? : : C/B is as notes : b-e-g then?
I did made from the c major scale een serie of slash cords by pressing the white key below a whole tone, but in two case it was a half tone
How a particular chord is build up? : i could record a chord 1 +chord 2 form the acmp and see it in the score display..but i am not handy with this yet .
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Hi Jan,
a "Slash Chord" always means the complete Chord (given before the slash) plus the Bass note (given after the slash) .
For example, "C/B" (spoken "C over B") means the Chord "C major" (the notes C-E-G, no matter in which chord inversion played) combined with the Bass note "B" (played below the Chord notes of course).
Best regards,
Chris
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Hi Jan,
a "Slash Chord" always means the complete Chord (given before the slash) plus the Bass note (given after the slash) .
For example, "C/B" (spoken "C over B") means the Chord "C major" (the notes C-E-G, no matter in which chord inversion played) combined with the Bass note "B" (played below the Chord notes of course).
Best regards,
Chris
Hi Chris
Ah now it makes it sense.
I was thinking on a inverted chord what has the same abbrevation for example C/E , or not ?
Did not know this with a added bassnote , that's why i could not understand the the C/B chord construction with 3 notes
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Hi Chris
Ah now it makes it sense.
I was thinking on a inverted chord what has the same abbrevation for example C/E , or not ?
Did not know this with a added bassnote , that's why i could not understand the the C/B chord construction with 3 notes
Hi Jan,
the Bass note (written after the slash) can be ANY note (a note that already belongs to the Chord to be played, or any other note which should be used as the Bass note at this point).
For example, you can imagine that the Chords are played by a guitarist and the Bass notes are played by a bassist. Both musicians can orientate themselves on such "slash chords": The guitarist "only" plays the Chords. The bassist also orientates himself on the Chords. However, when a "Slash Chord" is notated, he will play EXACTLY THAT Bass note. :)
Best regards,
Chris
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Hi Jan,
For example, you can imagine that the Chords are played by a guitarist and the Bass notes are played by a bassist. Both musicians can orientate themselves on such "slash chords": The guitarist "only" plays the Chords. The bassist also orientates himself on the Chords. However, when a "Slash Chord" is notated, he will play EXACTLY THAT Bass note. :)
Best regards,
Chris
Hi Chris,
I can see what bass and chords instruments are involved with tiny icons in sx600
Jan
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Jan
In music many things are about convention rather than absolute logic. A slash chord is just a convenient shorthand way way of telling the player to play the chord with something other than the chord root as the bass. Is it an extra note or a replacement note? - it really doesn’t matter. Of course that new chord could also then be termed an inversion. But there is no convenient way on a lead sheet of transmitting to a player ‘play a second inversion’ other than writing it as a slash chord like C/G.
So what about slash notes that are not part of the chord. Well, theoretically, every note included in a chord is part of a chord. You just have to re-define the chord. So if I wanted you to play C/G#, I could probably say it’s a Caug. with a G# bass. I guess I could logically also call it C aug, 3rd inversion, but I just wouldn't because that would be cumbersome, unnecessary, a little confusing but mainly just because you don’t do that!
Don’t tie yourself in knots trying to work out everything logically. That’s even more true of things like time signatures. Think of these things as shorthand notes you instantly understand because you have learned what they mean rather than something you can work out from basic logic. There is a lot of logic in music, but there is also a lot of just knowing what it means. That may go against the grain of your instinct as a math student, but it’s how it is.
Mike
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Mike
Also in mathematics a symbol can have different meanings in a certain context, but it happens not much.
That's perhaps not ideal, but it somehow it is needed for some topics to be studied
The reason for this is a interesting question for to try to be answered if you curious about this.
Probably the same issue is in music notation possible like for the slash chords
I am not a trained musician so it is a new encounter with a symbol
Jan
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Jan
In music many things are about convention rather than absolute logic. A slash chord is just a convenient shorthand way way of telling the player to play the chord with something other than the chord root as the bass. Is it an extra note or a replacement note? - it really doesn’t matter. Of course that new chord could also then be termed an inversion. But there is no convenient way on a lead sheet of transmitting to a player ‘play a second inversion’ other than writing it as a slash chord like C/G
...
Well, not to throw even more confusion into the mix, but I have actually occasionally seen a form of notation that indicates the inversion of a chord, and that is to have two numbers, one on top of the other, right after the chord symbol, that shows the intervals that make up the chord, the top number being the "span" of the chord, or interval from the bottom note to the top one, and the bottom number being the interval from the bottom note to the middle note being played.
So, for a C major chord, a C 5/3 (I'm just adding a slash because the text format here doesn't easily allow for showing one number on top of another, but in the actual notation, the two numbers would be one over the other, and there would be no slash) is root position, as it shows the "bottom to top span" being a fifth (C to G) and the middle note (E) being a major third above the bottom note. C 6/3 is first inversion (the "span" of the chord being the E-to-C minor 6th, and the middle note (G) being a minor third above the bottom note. And C 6/4 is second inversion (the sixth being the G to E span, with the middle note (C) being a fourth above the bottom G.
Confused yet :-) ?
But with the original question about the slash chords -- Yes, no need to overthink it. The symbol on the left of the slash is simply the chord being played, as it would be played any other time with or without the slash, and the note after the slash just indicates what bass note is to be played along with that chord. And it is typically used when the song writer wants to indicate that it is important to the sound and character of the song that a particular bass note is played along with a particular chord at that moment in the song. And, as previously stated, the bass note does NOT have to be a note that would normally be a part of the chord -- and in fact, it often isn't, which is why the song writer wants to make it clear to play that particular bass note with that particular chord.
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Hi SciNote
Thanks
I think i understand now the notation for slash cords better: in all cases it is a bass note + chord played
Please don't say its not true ;D
Jan
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Hi SciNote
Thanks
I think i understand now the notation for slash cords better: in all cases it is a bass note + chord played
Please don't say its not true ;D
Jan
It's not true! Nah, just kidding! Except that I would describe it as "chord played + bass note" instead of "bass note + chord played", because the notation is "chord played / bass note".
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Thanks
It was about a descending bass example : C-C/B-Am-Am/G-F-D/F#-G-G7/F from Bach's Air on A G string.
If you listen to the opening of the composition played by strings you will hear someone playing just bass notes(not chords) before the rest of the strings start playing the rest of the melody,chords etc.
So the one who wrote the sheet music you have and transposed the composition to the key of C, had to find suitable chords that would much to that bass notes playing.
The composition starts with notes from the C chord and then the bass is playing the notes b-a-g-f etc. while the strings keep the very first notes for very long.
So he added chords to these bass notes that make sense and as you can see he made sure that the distinguished "walking bass" would also be heard clearly.
If there is a slash chord that is not easy for you to play with all 4 keys you have to hit lesser keys but make sure that this chord notes will fit.
E.g don't play one of the middle notes of the slash chord and listen how the style is behaving.
You can always record just a really small part on a slow tempo as a midi song and then watch what notes each instrument of the style is playing by pushing play and speed up the tempo without having to save the midi song at all.
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It's not true! Nah, just kidding! Except that I would describe it as "chord played + bass note" instead of "bass note + chord played", because the notation is "chord played / bass note".
Me, i was just kidding too
I agree with you want to describe the slash chord on this way
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If you listen to the opening of the composition played by strings you will hear someone playing just bass notes(not chords) before the rest of the strings start playing the rest of the melody,chords etc.
So the one who wrote the sheet music you have and transposed the composition to the key of C, had to find suitable chords that would much to that bass notes playing.
The composition starts with notes from the C chord and then the bass is playing the notes b-a-g-f etc. while the strings keep the very first notes for very long.
So he added chords to these bass notes that make sense and as you can see he made sure that the distinguished "walking bass" would also be heard clearly.
Thanks
I have enclosed a score of a exercise for the AI fingering for people who want use this chord fingering method
I am using the multi fingering chord mode within the AI chord fingering mode and after a advise: i agree
Its trying out the AI fingering method besides the multi-fingering method and it is a other style of playing
Jan
[attachment deleted by admin]
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The descending bass playing in AI fingering mode in this example is something different then playing Fingered on Bass
I think also in AI fingered playing inversion is the same as with Fingered chord mode : only the handpostion counts.( the chord sound stay the same)-> no i am wrong here
Its only with playing : Fingered on Bass to hear the real bass playing as i can see it now ..no must be also the same case as with the AI fingered on bass.
It is with fingered and AI fingered that handposition doesn't matter for the chord sounding: all the same
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I could be wrong about this, but dont think the arrangers ever change the inversion in the body of the style regardless of the fingering mode. Its only the bass that changes with certain fingering modes.
Mike
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I could be wrong about this, but dont think the arrangers ever change the inversion in the body of the style regardless of the fingering mode. Its only the bass that changes with certain fingering modes.
Mike
Thanks
I think you are right : the sound difference between say C triad and his two version is minimal to hear
Probably the arranger uses a default chord ( for to be sure i must look then for the stylesconstruction), but the added bass to a triad seems to me, make a sound difference.
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I don’t hear any difference.
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I don’t hear any difference.
Hi Toril
What difference you can't hear exactly?
Don't know from you what can't hear
Jan
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What you just stated, you play a chord in any inversion, and it sounds the same :)
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The only time you do hear a difference playing different inversions is when you use a left voice in your playing and that can add more "fullness" and interest to the sounds (eg. Bigband) if it can be done properly but of course the style carries on playing the originally identified chords with no change.
John
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Thanks John!
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Musically, C/A is Am7, even though the composer hasn't written it as such. There are plenty of mislabelled chords in sheet music. I've got one on the desk that describes the same chord in two ways - on the same line of music!
The A bass is the important part. A C will indeed produce A minor, so if you want to hear that G in the C chord as well, Am7 will give you that.
In any case, many of these chords are transitory and don't last more than a beat or two, so it often makes little difference to the overall sound.
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What you just stated, you play a chord in any inversion, and it sounds the same :)
With this in mind.
Now i was interesting in the way how the yamaha styles are programmed : are chord inversion used in a style or not ? :)
Can't find easy information about styles programming
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Jan
You are getting confused between inversion and voicing. If the bass note is changed then it is already an inversion, regardless of the order of the other notes played. So when the style recognizes a different bass note it is already playing an inversion regardless of the order of the notes within the style.
Changing the order of the notes played is called voicing. The chord C for example consists of the notes C E G, but I can not only play them in any order, but anywhere on the keyboard. That is called voicing.
When you create a style you can of course decide what notes you will hear i.e. the voicing. So for example if you program a chord within the style on a pad or whatever composed of triad C E G, then that is what you will hear - relative of course to the chord you actually play in real time, and regardless of what voicing you actually use to play that chord. If you program EG C - or indeed any other collection of notes eg C G (high)E , then that is what you will always hear when you play the chord C in real time, no matter how you voice the chord as you play in real time.
To allow a style to recalculate the voicing for every combination you could play in real time would be very complicated, and probably very messy. So the voicing in the style is set when you program the style and is not changed. But the bass note changes if you activate a fingering method to recognize the bass you play.
This whole thing is actually much simpler than you are making it. An inversion is simply a chord played with a different bass than the root. A slash chord is just a way of notating what bass to play. Is that always an inversion - no - because the bass may or may not be part of the standard chord. But what it is called doesn't actually matter - you just play it.
Mike
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This whole thing is actually much simpler than you are making it. An inversion is simply a chord played with a different bass than the root. A slash chord is just a way of notating what bass to play. Is that always an inversion - no - because the bass may or may not be part of the standard chord. But what it is called doesn't actually matter - you just play it.
Mike
Thanks
Yes, was for me confusing the notation of a slash chord when the bassnote was not belonging to the chord.
Now i know it for the slash chord.
Must give new meaning onto a slash chord notation.
I am also intererested how Yamaha styles are programmed in general.
Did not a quick answer on this style construction build, but takes more time
Jan