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Genos (10 Boards) => Genos - General => Topic started by: Yinon on June 13, 2019, 12:13:33 PM

Title: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: Yinon on June 13, 2019, 12:13:33 PM
I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....

Prices are going down in the US and I got a 76 key new for $2800.
Before I continue and before the good people on this forum start bashing me I will state immediately - I'm keeping my Genos too  8)

One more note - these comparing notes are subjective and it's my own. I'm not paid by Korg or Yamaha to review and much like most of you on this forum, you I'm a musician who wanted to taste both

There are quite few YouTube vidoes out comparing the Genos to the Pa4X.
These are focused mostly on Styles and Sounds.

Sounds -
The sound quality of Genos is superb. Nothing can touch it. Since I have the Genos for over a year, I will allow myself few more weeks for final verdict but at his point any sound I pick on the Genos sound better to me than the Korg.
If you are looking for a workstation with great samples - Genos is your ultimate instrument.

Styles -
I think that this has a lot to do whit how you use styles. Some folk use Midi files which again will take to point 1 and the sound. I need to start and state I' mostly playing styles. I think that styles provide an easy way to play a song if you are a piano player (and play chords on your right hand and bass on your left). In this way of playing, there is no melody played except for instrumental solo every now and then and this method is used to accompany a vocalist.
In my view - the Korg Styles sound a little more like a live band. The Genos - the new Styles with the Revo drums in my ears sound like a movie production or a CD.
Before people jump here - Live band is usually 4-5 players, its is usually punchy feel and the drums and bass are key to make you feel the music. For Genos - I holnstly think it's the sound selection and mix ... and the complexity of the styles which make it sound too complex - something you can only do in a recording studio.
The Korg is arrangement in the styles is simple and what I would expect from a well experienced band to play.
Having said that - any style in Genos is customization and can be "dialed down".
The easy way is to save a registration and start muting some of the extra channels.

If you are gigging, if your playing rock/pop/country and if you don't have time to get into style customization - Korg will give you a better starting point. It's styles are generic (less song orinted) so you can select a ballad and play multiple songs with it.

BTW - oddly the older Yamaha styles sound much closer to a live band. If you check the Tyros3,4,5 styles it seems like the "studio production" feel is significantly lower with the older styles so I tend to pick these rather than messing with the new Genos styles.
The Pa4X feels more like a Tyros 3, 4 with the out of the box styles ...

Body and Build -
In this case I must choose the Kord. The Genos shape is like a little spaceship control center. The round shape, the lights, the colors (white lower body?) the kebod lights ... feels like a toy ..
It is also very wide comparing to the Korg. This impacts our ability to find a non-customize case or flight case for it ....

The Korg is 2Kg heavier but is built like a tank. Metal aluminum body. the colors are dark and. Led lights indicators are on the button but do not light up the entire button. (I think these buttons will last longer this way).

Keybed -
This again a personal preference.
The Genos key are very smooth and very light to the touch. Genos keyed feels like a fast waterfall organ.
The Pa4X keyed is tighter and feels heavier.
When playing a Piano/E Piano the korg feels better and this helps the dynamics.
Every other instrument - Genos keyed wins ...
The reason is that you need a light keyed to be able to gliss when playing horns, be very quick when you are playing guitars or flutes so if you use the Pa4X mostly with Styles and your main voices are Piano's and E-Piano - this is your instrument.
For workstation versatility of pre-recording, If you are using Genos mostly to play added instruments live - Organ, Hammond, Horns, Flutes, Sax, Guitar - Genos keyed will be helpful.

keyboard ergonomics - (Keyboard layout and design)
This is a big section and I will get to write it up later.

All in all - both great instruments and you should buy the one that fits your needs the most.  8)

Cheers
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: Lee Batchelor on June 13, 2019, 01:04:29 PM
Excellent post, Yinnon. No worries about starting a battle at my end of the world. You expressed a very objective point of view and pointed out the strengths and weaknesses of both boards.

I really like my Genos but agree that playing live shows where there is a high level of ambient noise, is a challenge with the drums and bass. When time permits, I'm going to overhaul all my Registrations and create custom drum and bass parts that will cut through the noise.

I think it's important to note that when playing in a noisy environment, the Genos doesn't cut through the noise as well as the T5 - probably for the reasons you mentioned. The Genos sounds more like a CD than a "cut through the noise" keyboard. For shows where people just sit and listen, there is nothing that compares with the Genos.
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: panos on June 13, 2019, 02:25:00 PM
Nice review Yinon.

For "live" playing sound I would do those on an arranger:
1.Expand the style measures.(from 4 to 8 or 16 or 32.It depends by each song)
While I was doing that I would go to edit tab and change the notes to different volume levels
(now they are equalized for "CD quality",right?)
I would also delete some "secondary" notes here and there.

2.Change the volumes of the parts.
You want especially drums and maybe bass? to be much louder than the other organs (parts).
I would increased the "High EQ" effect with drum parts so the hi hat sounds be more loud
and increased the "Low EQ" effect so you can feel  the Bass drum hit you in the face.

3.I would lower down the unnecessary "studio made" effects (reverb for example).
The styles must be as "dry" as possible.

4.If a voice still sounds like "CD quality" I would pick another voice.There are plenty for each organ.

5.I would change the pan of the parts so it wouldn't be so nicely equalized from a studio.
Maybe all organs are playing together almost in the middle and someone is playing at far right?


I just thought that if there are some principles to achieve a "CD quality" doing the exact opposites maybe will make you sound like a "live band" maybe?

Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: voodoo on June 13, 2019, 03:15:23 PM
Hi Yinon,

excellent post. I find it important to compare the "own" brand with the rest, just to know, what is possible.
When you find new points, please write us a report. I hope, nobody will start bashing.

Although I am happy with my Genos, and I decided for it intentionally, there are points I like on the Korg keyboards:

* more weighted keybed (your description is very good), but Genos keybed is also very good.
* capacitive touch with tilt (but the Korg graphics is like C64, Genos UI is much more modern), but Genos Touch is also very good.
* more compact build and more hardware buttons, where Genos is more beautiful (as you described)
* better sounds in category organ and synth, but Genos is unreached with SA2 natural voices
* better and deeper editing possibilities, but in real life I am happy with Genos as it is
* chord sequencer (I love this function and miss it on Genos)

In other aspects, the PA is more restricted as compared to the Yamaha philosophy, for example

* fixed number of memory slots for voices and styles, where as Genos allows unlimited number of voices, styles and regs on user or USB drive
* fixed system of mode (voice, song, style), where as Genos can combine all together
* fixed system of DSP effects. Using more voices at the same time uses the DSP of the first voice. Genos can combine several parts including all DSP.
* no registrations for memorizing everything

So it is interesting to know the differences to understand the strength of the own instrument.

Uli
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: Lee Batchelor on June 13, 2019, 03:16:09 PM
Excellent points, Panos. This post has made me think that we need to set up our Genos in one of two modes: playing at home and live playing. They really are opposite sides of the same coin ;)!

It would be nice if we could use global settings to achieve these modes. I'm going to play around with this idea and if anything of value results, I'll post back.
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: Lee Batchelor on June 13, 2019, 03:18:05 PM
Quote
no registrations for memorizing everything.
I didn't know that about the Korg. That would be a deal breaker for me. How do you store settings then??
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: voodoo on June 13, 2019, 03:19:41 PM
I didn't know that about the Korg. That would be a deal breaker for me. How do you store settings then??
I think it has a kind of song book, but not as mighty and flexible as registrations.
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: beykock on June 13, 2019, 03:28:36 PM
Hello Yinon,

What a great source of information !🎩

Wonderful ! THANK YOU VERY MUCH !😺

What I really like is " how " you are explaining the differences between both high end arranger keyboards.👏

It is up to the (end)user to decide which arranger keyboard he/she wants to buy to make his/her dream come true.

But ... if I hear you well ... you are saying the best option
would be : having both arrangers, right ?

The perfect combination, maybe ?

I will seriously think it over ...
Having a T5/76 - an arranger I really love very much -  + adding a second hand PA4X in my home studio, sounds like " music to my ears ".😀

Would be a very nice birthday present ... 💥

👍

Best wishes, Babette
 



Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: guitpic1 on June 13, 2019, 03:37:20 PM
I had a 61 key PA 4X.  Excellent keyboard...just didnít compare, for me anyway, to my Genos.
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: Bachus on June 13, 2019, 04:18:52 PM
Nice review Yinon.

For "live" playing sound I would do those on an arranger:
1.Expand the style measures.(from 4 to 8 or 16 or 32.It depends by each song)
While I was doing that I would go to edit tab and change the notes to different volume levels
(now they are equalized for "CD quality",right?)
I would also delete some "secondary" notes here and there.

2.Change the volumes of the parts.
You want especially drums and maybe bass? to be much louder than the other organs (parts).
I would increased the "High EQ" effect with drum parts so the hi hat sounds be more loud
and increased the "Low EQ" effect so you can feel  the Bass drum hit you in the face.

3.I would lower down the unnecessary "studio made" effects (reverb for example).
The styles must be as "dry" as possible.

4.If a voice still sounds like "CD quality" I would pick another voice.There are plenty for each organ.

5.I would change the pan of the parts so it wouldn't be so nicely equalized from a studio.
Maybe all organs are playing together almost in the middle and someone is playing at far right?


I just thought that if there are some principles to achieve a "CD quality" doing the exact opposites maybe will make you sound like a "live band" maybe?

Very well said, its not that hard to make Genos styles sound much more live.
Also you have a great tool to edit the Genos drums.
But your list of tips is top knotch

I think its much much harder to make a live sounding style sound much more cd-like.
Because that would require adding things to the arrangements..


Well said, and there is much to be learned for everyone in your post (including me)
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: stephenm52 on June 13, 2019, 04:59:38 PM
I didn't know that about the Korg. That would be a deal breaker for me. How do you store settings then??


Yinon congrats on your Pa4x!  :)

Songbook is how you make your registrations, Korg does it differently. I have both a Pa4x-76 and a Genos.  In my opinion Yamaha registrations allow more flexibility on set ups especially when you have 10 buttons. 

With Songbook on the Korg you chose your styles, voices, keychanges, volume levels, vocalized settings etc. Then you save your entries as a Songbook entry ( in a way similar to a playlist entry in Genos or even the MFD system on the PSR and Tyros series). 

Both are great instruments and Yinon has given an excellent review.   I find the Genos and Korg Pa4x is like food some days I may want a steak other days a pizza.  Some days I want to play the Genos other days the Pa4x.   I will say though lately my go to keyboard for gigs is the Genos.   For live play I still give the edge to the Korg Pa4x especially the vocal harmonizer sections.

I prefer the keybed of the Pa4x, but thatís because Iím basically a pianist.  No matter what both are superb instruments.
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: marcodg on June 13, 2019, 05:19:33 PM
I can understand you. The Genos sounds are really good but the pa4x does have some nice advantage. I owned it 1 years after using yamaha keyboard since 10 years. I went back to Genos for 6 months but i really consider to buy as second Keyboard a pa4x 61 int. The best option is always to have them both.
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: beykock on June 13, 2019, 05:46:03 PM
Hi,

It would be interesting for me to hear from giggers how they feel about the sound differences : " cd - and live band sound ". I would be very delighted to read their feedback.😁

Now I hear from some members it is possible to change the so called " cd Genos sound " into the " live band sound " too.

Very good news and a big advantage, I guess.

It might be possible the newest Genos update of June 28, 2019 will bring a lot of editing improvements ...
That would be great !

Babette

Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: Lee Batchelor on June 13, 2019, 06:21:34 PM
Babette, I haven't tried it yet, but I suspect the Genos can be placed in a more live mode through the Master EQ and Compression page. I single push button selection would be fantastic. I will give it a try for sure!
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: Nickt5 on June 13, 2019, 07:19:25 PM
I have owned both and now have my Genos.  My personal opinion is that the Korg build quality is far better than the Genos - If ever you've played one you'll know what I mean but sadly it is let down by the styles as Yamaha are winners in that respect.

The Korg is much more of a band musicians instrument and the clarity and sounds are excellent but the genos sounds like a 'polished band'with lots of EQ so its a much better 'finished' sound ready to play with minimal tweaking.
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: Bachus on June 13, 2019, 07:41:58 PM
I have owned both and now have my Genos.  My personal opinion is that the Korg build quality is far better than the Genos - If ever you've played one you'll know what I mean but sadly it is let down by the styles as Yamaha are winners in that respect.

The Korg is much more of a band musicians instrument and the clarity and sounds are excellent but the genos sounds like a 'polished band'with lots of EQ so its a much better 'finished' sound ready to play with minimal tweaking.

About the buildquallity

Modern day plastics are superior to metal in almost any way..
They are just as strong.. but are more flexible..
When a Genos drops, it bends back to its orriginal form..
But when a metal pa4x drops, chances are high that it bends and stays bended..

The power and strength of modern day plastics is very much underrated..

On the other hand, nothing beats real metal and real wood where it comes to looks.
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: dacca on June 13, 2019, 07:43:29 PM
Korg PA4x vs Yamaha Genos - comparison sound and styles

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Vh8dNNBIqI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YwAarhuH2I

Grt Marc
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: Yinon on June 13, 2019, 07:57:28 PM
Thanks everyone for your nice comments and thanks for not starting the usual Korg vs Yamaha fight ...  8)

Babette - I would not recommend owning both unless you have a studio and need the extra sounds or unless you have extra $3000.
In my opinion, when you gig and play real time (I'm not talking about midi songs) you need to be able to activate and control many of your buttons - song variations, fills, sound selection changes, pads, vocal harmony you may want to control during etc.

The instruments are very different on their ergonomic layout.
I think that switching between the 2 for alternate gigs will be very confusing for your "muscle memory" and your hand will reach out to the wrong button or location.

This leads me to the next section of Ergonomic Design - (Layout of the keyboard).

I got to be honest - although it seems like Genos allows more functionality... The Korg has better ergonomic design (for me)

The pads are on the left and close to the transport. (start, stop, fills, variation)
These pads are often used to activate loops and be in essence another variation to the song section.
Your left hand should be naturally reaching left for either set a fill, new variation or a  .... pad.
(This was the T5 design and was by far better for me).

Another key button not hidden under menus (or registration) is chord scan.
The Korg has 2 buttons close to your right hand which will allow you to scan lower, upper or both parts of the keyboard.
This is excellent when you want to switch between playing your full keyboard to recognize chords (which I do 90% of the time) or go the solo part of the song. With this you can immediately switch, play the chords on the left hand and the solo you play with your right hand will not interrupt the chord recognition.

Moreover - it seems like the Korg had something I wished Genos had for many months.
Its seems like you can save the chrod scan configuration with a sound.
So when you select a sax it will deactivate the full scan automatically and will just go to lower scan.
A piano, e-piano sound switch will keep you on full keys scan.

No matter how you look at this this is available in a button with a led indicator close to you. - Very useful for me!

Metronome - The Korg has a button to lock the tempo.
"Temo + -" On the right hand, allowing the keep changing the chords while changing tempo.

Fade In/Out - the Korg has these dedicated buttons right by the transport.

Sound and Style Criteria buttons - instead of touching the screen constantly the Korg has buttons for each criteria.

This can all be done with Genos - but it feels more natural with Pa4X.

Screen Tilt -
The Korg screen can be tilted and if you ever lost your screen in the Sun using Genos - this is very useful.
I think that the material for the screen is different too.
The Korg Screen feels like an Ipad screen while the Genos is soft .... and few cases I have to re-touch it.

Last - Tempo Reset -
I know that many of you will not care about this ...
I have seen many people who are willing to take take a song with changing time stamp (4/4 -> 2/4 -> 4/4) and keep using a 4/4 style throughout the song without feeling it. (In this case your 3 beat becomes a "1")
I can't ...
It confuses me and the style feeling is wrong.
The fills are not going sound good and they will be coming half way ...

The Korg has a reset Temp button.
While you are playing a style, no matter where you are in the bar, hitting the button will reset it the style to the "1"
this is critical for many modern songs and the fact that you need to go through so much trouble with registrations is killing theses songs for me. (Just avoiding them with Genos or Midi file with DAW edit).

True - Genos does have "half a break" optional pedal function.
I tried it for a while - 1. This only works on symeric tempos (so songs like 4/4 -> 3/4 -> 4/4 cannot be handled)
2. It takes a lot of training to activate the pedal on time tohhave the half bar triggered.

Having said that, Vali informed us that temp reset is coming with Genos 1.4 update.
If nothing else comes and only this feature ... I will be extremely happy.

I know this long and it feels like I'm recommending the Korg ....
However -

I need to say that with Korg I feel that sometimes the chord recognition is not accurate, there are hickups on chords changes and I'm not sure Korgs recognize the "Jazzy" chords so well - 7,9,11,13. I sometimes struggle to hear the Korg play them back in the style accurately.

Bottom line -
My main keys are Genos and at this point it will remain my main :-)










Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: stephenm52 on June 14, 2019, 03:16:25 AM

The instruments are very different on their ergonomic layout.
I think that switching between the 2 for alternate gigs will be very confusing for your "muscle memory" and your hand will reach out to the wrong button or location.




I can only speak for myself but for the last 8 years or so Iíve owned both Yamaha and Korg at the same time.  I had a Pa800/PSR3000,  then Pa2xPro,  then Pa3x/Tryos4,  then the Pa4x/Tyros5 and finally Genos/Pa4x.   Iíve switched between the 2 and gigged and rehearsed enough where Iím comfortable switching off between the 2 boards only because Iíve had many hours at both brands.  For a newbie to Korg who has worked only with Yamaha and vice versa switching could be confusing.
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: vbdx66 on June 14, 2019, 08:33:42 AM
Hi Steve,

Now for a dumb question:

If you were stuck on a desert island for the rest of your life (but with enough food, water and power supply), would you opt for the Korg or for the Genos?

I am really curious to read your answer.

Regards,

Vinciane
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: voodoo on June 14, 2019, 08:51:41 AM
got to be honest - although it seems like Genos allows more functionality... The Korg has better ergonomic design (for me)

Yinon,

thank you again for these precise evaluation.

As you mention, there are some fine features that make life easier, sich as chord sequencer, tempo reset, or chord scan mode. Perhaps we will get some functions in both worlds in future.

Another comment on registrations: Korg has the concept of key sets. This is a library of settings for the keyboard parts only. And in the presets there are some very cool sound combinations. for example, a setting for "Jump", giving fat sound by layering some synth sounds. This can be simulated by registrations or OTS on Yamaha, but it is not quite the same.

Yinon, do you make use of these key sets?

Uli
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: mikf on June 14, 2019, 10:01:02 AM
I have never owned a Korg, but played around with then in a dealers. My impression is that while the two brands are broadly equivalent, there is a difference in design philosophy of their top end models. The Korg just seems more aimed at pro players with features and layout. Their alternative to registrations for example seemed more intuitive and more suited to gig organization. Both brands sound good, and I think the differences can be overstated, but if I had bought Korg first, I might have stayed with it. But the difference is not enough for me to consider changing because I donít see it as important enough to invest effort in the change. If it were my day to day living I might look at it differently.
Re the sound, ....on enthusiast forums people sometimes obsess about differences that are too small to be noticed by most listeners, especially when they cannot compare directly. Compared to quality of performance this is almost a non issue. Give a mediocre singer the best mic and sound system in the world and they are still a mediocre singer.
Mike
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: stephenm52 on June 14, 2019, 11:47:53 AM
Hi Steve,

Now for a dumb question:

If you were stuck on a desert island for the rest of your life (but with enough food, water and power supply), would you opt for the Korg or for the Genos?

I am really curious to read your answer.

Regards,

Vinciane

Hi Vinciane,

That's not a dumb question! I think it's a great question! First I pray that I'm never on that desert :) :) :)   The answer is easy I'd keep both ( all kidding aside).  I'd pick the Genos to keep.  If you had asked me if I had a Tyros5 and Pa4x which would I keep on the desert, it would have been the Pa4x.  My feeling is that Genos improved in many ways including smaller foot print for transporting to gigs( Genos fits in the same case as my Pa4x)  and the inclusion of the playlist feature that in some ways mimic the Songbook feature in the Pa4x.   There's also many other improvements that I enjoy to the Genos too numerous to list.
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: Lee Batchelor on June 14, 2019, 12:43:07 PM
Quote
First I pray that I'm never on that desert :) :) :)
Me too! It would be a real chore trying to get people out to your gig!!

All kidding aside, I've never seen a Korg up close but it sounds like it is more of a gigging machine than Genos. On the other hand, if you can learn to skate around some of the missing buttons on the Genos that we used to have on the T5, you're good to go. Hopefully, the update will aid in some of these issues.
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: ugawoga on June 14, 2019, 05:45:38 PM
Hi Lee
I could not hold myself today and upgraded Sonarworks to the complete studio edition with mic.
I have got to crack the mixing 20% off headphone upgrade.
Hope the Gen :) s sings after room correction.

All the Best
John
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: Eric, B on June 14, 2019, 08:10:07 PM
One of the main things to get a life sound is to reduce the overall reverb.
For the home player it might be fine, but for life play Yamaha drowns their styles and sounds in too much reverb.
I use Stage1 on the Genos for Global to get a much more dry sound.
Just enough reverb for fullness.
As already mentioned I turn up the drums and base and adjust EQ.
The audience doesn't care if it is life sounding or not.
The main thing is the groove. Its got to be tight.
Driven by Base and drums in most cases. There are a few exceptions.
Genos styles have a good groove.
Of course the PA4X too.
I owned many KB's and was always able to achieve the sound I wanted.
My audience never complaint that my KB's were not life sounding enough ...
I auditioned the PA4X several times, but still like my Genos better at this point for the kind of music I do.
Plus there are soooo many song specific styles available for Yamaha.
The PA4X is certainly a great KB and I would recommend it to some over the Genos.
It comes down to taste.
Most people don't use a lot of editing. Even the ones who gig.
The Genos gives me plenty of tools at this time.
I might be swayed by the PA5X .... Who knows.
Great topic.
Thanks
Eric
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: Kaarlo von Freymann on June 14, 2019, 08:56:34 PM
.....The best option is always to have them both.

I admire you, I could not do that. Apart from the difficulty  deciding which instrument to take to the gig or taking even both (!) in the heat of a gig you must be able to press the right buttons just like you have to use the right whiskers on your car.
I have a 30 year old Mercedes and a 19  years old Range Rover. They both have the steering wheel on the left side, but the whiskers and the way to engage constant speed and operate the seats and windows  is not the same.  In a stressful situation I still after so many years may do the wrong thing.
I still have the in my view  very nice YAMAHA 5700,  but  when I try to play on it I just cannot remember which button to press.

I admire you just like I admire those who can do the fingering and embouchure switchin from a ternor sax to clarinet.  Switching to a Trumpet in the middle of a tune must be easier just as I used to have no difficulties switching from a Vespa to a car.

Cheers

Kaarlo
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: Tommy 73 on June 14, 2019, 10:06:02 PM
Hi Lee
I could not hold myself today and upgraded Sonarworks to the complete studio edition with mic.
I have got to crack the mixing 20% off headphone upgrade.
Hope the Gen :) s sings after room correction.

All the Best
John
John I'm sure you will love it... I could not be without Sonarworks now if i tried... don't forget you can make profiles for you Focals and yamaha speakers but of course you Focals are the important ones  :) https://www.gearnews.com/sonarworks-reference-4-3-update-adds-dark-mode-usability-improvements/
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: beykock on June 14, 2019, 10:33:01 PM

Hi,

After reading all these comments, I understand most people will finally go for the Genos instead of the Korg PA4X, right ?

Babette
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: Eric, B on June 14, 2019, 11:49:10 PM
Hi,

After reading all these comments, I understand most people will finally go for the Genos instead of the Korg PA4X, right ?

Babette

Of course, as we are on a Yamaha Forum ...  ;)
Same Question on a Korg Forum - different outcome  :)
Eric
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: stephenm52 on June 15, 2019, 01:18:51 AM
Of course, as we are on a Yamaha Forum ...  ;)
Same Question on a Korg Forum - different outcome  :)
Eric

:) :) :)
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: beykock on June 15, 2019, 11:52:59 AM
Hi Eric :

I like your sense of humor.👍😃

But what I wanted to say :

I have the impression, based on the comments I have read, most people prefer the Genos.

Maybe, after the June 28, 2019 Genos update, it might be possible this high end arranger will become more popular than ever before, who knows ? Time will tell.

Up to now nobody knows ( yet ) when the PA5X will be available and/or what it will bring.

Best wishes, Babette
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: ugawoga on June 15, 2019, 12:24:02 PM
John I'm sure you will love it... I could not be without Sonarworks now if i tried... don't forget you can make profiles for you Focals and yamaha speakers but of course you Focals are the important ones  :) https://www.gearnews.com/sonarworks-reference-4-3-update-adds-dark-mode-usability-improvements/

Hi Tommy

I have taken your advice eventually and paid the £180 extra.
I have got the dreaded square room and now two Foam panels on stands behind me. Wooden slatted 45 degree blinds for window and panel opposite site on wall.
When not doing a mix i can take the foam panels on stands down and put them in the corner for more space.  Sound on Sound advised all of that.
I will have to have a look at the site , but have not seen the write up yet.
Once setup  and measured i hope life will become easier on that final mix.
Right now not happy as I had double tooth out and a week of naggling pain. Getting better now. Any more steak crunchers that go will mean implants. Something to look forward to in my 70s :-\

All the Best
john :)
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: EileenL on June 15, 2019, 12:33:45 PM
First and foremost I think as this is a Yamaha forum most people will join because they are Yamaha owners and really enjoy using there products. Korg owners will join a Korg forum. I don't see the point of long threads comparing the two as people make there minds up when they purchase them. There first port of call if unsure is of course a shop where they can try them for themselves and have a good comparison first hand. Forum's will not do this. They are designed to help you get the best from your keyboard when you have it. 
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: ugawoga on June 15, 2019, 01:48:44 PM
Hi
I think in my opinion only that comparisons are a good thing and communication between fellow musicians only adds to knowledge.
I firmly stand behind the Genos but also like to hear about peoples views being Genos or whatever.
oh well i'm off on my Yamaha 650!! ;D 
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: beykock on June 15, 2019, 02:11:28 PM
IMHO not so many people  are lucky to test, try and/or compare their arranger keyboard in a music shop before they buy.

Nowadays most customers order from internet sellers, pay and after receipt of their keyboard they are allowed to send it back within 30 or 60 days, free of charge.

After return of her/his arranger the buyer receives his full payment back ( from the internet seller ).

However the buyer is obliged to gather all information from a forum, from friends or other internet sources, I guess.



Babette
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: Tankdave on June 15, 2019, 09:07:13 PM
Great thread this one  ;)
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: stephenm52 on June 16, 2019, 12:28:29 AM
IMHO not so many people  are lucky to test, try and/or compare their arranger keyboard in a music shop before they buy.

Babette


This is true.  I have to say Iíve been lucky I live 100 miles from AudioWorksCt and have been able to try every arranger I purchased.  I know of at least one other forum member who lives within driving distance too of Frankís store.

Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: Bachus on June 16, 2019, 06:47:43 PM

This is true.  I have to say Iíve been lucky I live 100 miles from AudioWorksCt and have been able to try every arranger I purchased.  I know of at least one other forum member who lives within driving distance too of Frankís store.

Trying before buying an arranger is for most here in Western Europe not a problem..
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: travlin-easy on June 16, 2019, 08:34:36 PM
For me, it is a drive of about 4 hours round-trip in the world's most congested traffic to Washington Music in Rockville, Maryland, a store that has been around forever and carries all the high end arranger keyboards in the Keys Section of their store. While they charge full retail for everything, their service is incredible, they have an excellent return policy and you get to try before you buy. I got my hands on the Genos there and played for about two hours, then drove home after deciding not to buy because I no longer am performing on stage and really didn't need it.

As I stated in your other post, no one is going to bash you for purchasing a PA4X - and if they did, they would have me to deal with. ;)

Cheers,

Gary :cool:
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: Pianoman on June 18, 2019, 12:01:11 PM
First and foremost I think as this is a Yamaha forum most people will join because they are Yamaha owners and really enjoy using there products. Korg owners will join a Korg forum. I don't see the point of long threads comparing the two as people make there minds up when they purchase them.

I have been following this subject with interest for a while.
We have a Genos owner who bought a Korg PA4X and has kindly decided to share his
experience of both keyboards on this forum, pointing out the strengths and weaknesses
of both keyboards.


This can only be a good thing, as it may make both manufacturers take note and
add or correct some features in their future products.

I find it unhealthy to suppress comparisons as these comparisons are educative
and will only benefit the end users, us.

The claim that " they are Yamaha owners and really enjoy using their products "
is debatable.
It may apply to some users but perhaps not all.

I for one am not much of a Fanboy and have pointed out several times the things that
I found lacking, or wished that Yamaha hadn't changed.

For example, this being summer, I perform outdoors a lot, and the inability to
tilt the screen of the Genos is quite a problem as I'm playing practically blind or have to
constantly get up and peer at the screen from up close, to check registrations, EQ, Filters,
Compression, Accompaniment volume, Keyboard volume etc.

And this is only one of a few other issues that for some may be important to
discuss.

Reading this Genos section over the last year or so has revealed that many users have
different issues with their instrument.

Hopefully the upcoming update will resolve some of those issues.

Discussions and comparisons are healthy and should not be discouraged, in my opinion.

Best Regards,
Abby.








Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: Lee Batchelor on June 18, 2019, 12:19:33 PM
Abby is 100 percent correct. There are two basic keyboard users - home and gigging. The home user is in full control, and if he or she needs to stop and re-assess how to approach a problem, they simply do it. Gigging musicians must learn to anticipate every challenge they will neet on the stage. I am one of those gigging musicians and find that I can only anticipate perhaps 80 percent of what's going to happen. The rest is left to chance.

This is where a comparison between the two keyboards is valid. Overall, I think the sounds of the Genos are superior. The piano sounds have more body on the Korg, from what I can hear over my computer speakers. If the Korg offers better control at a gig, then it's the keyboard of choice. If the Genos does, then it's the superior choice. Much of this choice depends on what material you're playing, how long, and what adjustments must be made during the gig.

If Yamaha swims in this forum on occasion, then some healthy feedback about the Genos is completely valid. There's always room for improvement.
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: stephenm52 on June 18, 2019, 12:24:38 PM

This is where a comparison between the two keyboards is valid. Overall, I think the sounds of the Genos are superior. The piano sounds have more body on the Korg, from what I can hear over my computer speakers. If the Korg offers better control at a gig, then it's the keyboard of choice. If the Genos does, then it's the superior choice. Much of this choice depends on what material you're playing, how long, and what adjustments must be made during the gig.


You're right on with the body of piano sounds on the Korg, it just doesn't sound that way thru your computer speakers.   I'd never want to use either the Korg or Genos if I were playing a complete piano solo gig somewhere. Throwing in a couple of piano solos during a gig is one thing but not for an hour or 2 gig.   When I sit at either Korg or Genos at home or on a gig, I'm always amazed at what I hear.
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: beykock on June 18, 2019, 01:21:37 PM
Hi Abby,

I think you are right the Genos is missing the "tiltable screen" especially for those who are obliged to play outside.😯

I have seen some people found solutions to cover this problem. See other threads.

This feature might be available when Yamaha will launch the Genos2. Time will tell.

Hopefully the update of June 2019 will be very useful for your own applications.

Of course it is allowed here to compare the Genos and the PA4X. Why not ?

IMHO every player wants/needs to know the differences to be able to make the right decission before buying.
Finally the buyer is the only decision maker and all of us are respecting his personal choice, I guess.

But ... I believe for most of these forum members ( like me and you ) Yamaha will always be their # 1 and their favourite arranger keyboard.
 
Some members of this forum are owning both arrangers.

All of these owners like them both and explain us why.
Very interesting comments, IMO.

None of them are forcing to convince people to go for one or the other or both.

In my perception these guys are simply sharing here their observations and experiences and obviously they love them both.

Wished I could follow their footsteps though.😺

Best wishes, Babette
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: Pianoman on June 18, 2019, 04:24:30 PM
Hi Abby,
 
Some members of this forum are owning both arrangers.

All of these owners like them both and explain us why.
Very interesting comments, IMO.

None of them are forcing to convince people to go for one or the other or both.

In my perception these guys are simply sharing here their observations and experiences and obviously they love them both.

Wished I could follow their footsteps though.😺

Best wishes, Babette


Me too Babette.

To be honest I am quite tempted to buy a Pa4x myself, to have both the Genos and Korg
after having read this review, but can't really afford to right now.

 Having just forked out a substantial amount of money, I need to be careful for a while.
There is family business and other things that also need my attention.

For a gigging musician (and each musician has different needs) it is more than just buying
an instrument.
There are things like renewing or replacing many things related to gigs, civil responsibility
insurance, promotional material, fuel, vehicle wear and tear, clothes etc.

I find myself spending up to 1200 Euros every year on clothes and shoes related to gigs.
Unfortunately for me, I love elegant shoes and suits.

Best Regards,
Abby.

Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: Tommy 73 on June 18, 2019, 04:58:08 PM
Interesting thread... although I am not a Genos owner at the moment I am still following the lady's and gentlemen over here and there journeys with Genos as i am a "all things keyboard fan generally" so no real bias in any particular direction here..... So I have to say what has caught my eye is Genos with V-console which looks like a very interesting propersition indeed and even more so of late as unfortunately the PA4X is not without its problems after the latest major OS V3 update and that is something that can be explored on the korg forum... so could anyone point me to some YouTube user reviews (if one exists) showing Genos and V-console together in a little more depth or any reviews that could be of interest...also I can not see any pdf manual for V-console to study are there any available?..thanks in advance  :)
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: beykock on June 18, 2019, 05:07:10 PM
Hi Abby :

I think your customers like to see musicians are well dressed. I think it is an important part of your show.🎩
You are not a rock band.👀

We have no idea when the PA5X will be available though.

Some people believe it might take more than one year or longer before it will be available due to the latest/recent PA4X update.

Personally I believe it might be in the music shops sooner than we all may expect ... and order it too soon might be a huge mistake. " Try before you buy " ... remember ? 😻

The PA4X is already a long time there ( 6 - 7 years maybe ? ) ... sorry I cannot remember when it came out for the first time. See Google.

PA700 and PA1000 were introduced in December 2017 or early 2018 ?

I should not be surprised the PA5X ( or a complete new brand name, who knows ? ) will be available early 2020 or even at the end of this year. Nobody knows ...  pure speculation ? 📢

I wonder if it is not better to wait for the new high end Korg arranger ? 😻

Babette


Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: mikf on June 18, 2019, 05:12:59 PM
There are many things about being a paid musician that are humdrum or stressful - finding work, getting paid, transporting heavy equipment to/from and in/out of venues, (especially after midnight when you are tired!),  maintaining equipment, staying current, sometimes dealing with people who get out of hand after too much alcohol, .... But one thing that was never a chore was performing for an audience. That was the pleasure that makes it all worth while. Basically a pro is churning out the same rehearsed material over and over and that should be a piece of cake, almost autopilot. Whatever equipment you use, playing it it has to be second nature so you can just relax and enjoy the experience. Of course technical things occasionally go wrong, but a pro can usually deal with that.
 I played gigs from the time I was 15 years old, until my mid forties, with a break of some years in the middle and always loved playing for an audience. I probably would have carried on longer but both my wife and my daytime employer had other ideas !
Mike
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: DonM on June 18, 2019, 06:05:05 PM
I've had the PA4x since it came out.  Problems have sprung up, but very few affected me and the way I play.  All problems were quickly corrected by Korg with updates, plus both minor and major upgrades at no cost along the way. 
While I've had the Korg, I have also had Yamaha S970, Ketron SD7 and SD40, and Roland EA7.  They all have their outstanding areas and they all have some drawbacks.  I also auditioned the Genos twice, all day both times.
Having said all this, the only thing that could pry the PA4X from my hands is the introduction of a replacement from Korg, and only then if it offers some features that would be significant help to ME.
I could go into the features that I love, but it has already been done, and I don't want to sound like I'm selling Korgs.
I could actually be happy with any MOTL or TOTL arranger made in the past ten years, if that were necessary.
If Yamaha comes out with an arranger that is light weight, comact size, has good drums and vocal harmonizer, touch screen, preferably joystick, and doesn't cost a fortune, I'll be in the market.  I have zero brand loyalty.
I think we can only benefit from discussions such as this.
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: metcam on June 18, 2019, 06:18:55 PM

I think we can only benefit from discussions such as this.

Well said.

Very good discussions here.


Regards
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: beykock on June 18, 2019, 07:50:22 PM
Hi DonM:

Well said ! 👌

The Korg PA4X is the only real competitor of the Genos today, as far as I know.

Both arrangers are pro instruments but they are different.

It is up to the enduser/player to decide :  a Genos or a PA4X or both.

All depends on the needs of the individual player, IMHO.

However, before he/she can make a final decision, he/she
has to " know " both arrangers very well.

To " know an arranger keyboard " takes a lot of time and energy but it saves a lot of irritation, useless discussions, painful and expensive regrets.

Best regards, Babette


 
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: travlin-easy on June 18, 2019, 10:55:58 PM
Abby, what size shirt do you wear? I have many that I would be glad to send you from when I was still on stage. They are satin, variety of colors, have matching ties and all are XL. If they will fit, they are yours at no charge. I also have a summer tuxedo, which jacket, black slacks, size 44. All this stuff needs a new home, preferably a full-time entertainer. They are yours for the asking.

All the best,

Gary 8)
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: Kaarlo von Freymann on June 18, 2019, 11:00:10 PM

..... I live 100 miles from AudioWorksCt and have been able to try every arranger I purchased....

I am always amazed that Americans feel  100 miles is just nothing.  When coming home at 6 PM from his work a very dear friend of mine in L.A. years ago said to me,  "Let's go and see my cousin, he lives just round the corner." Being Finnish I imagined that would be a 15 minutes drive. We drove over 400 miles round trip . :)  I sometimes drive to see the YAMAHA importer for Finland,  they used to be located  3 miles from my house. Now they have moved very far away,  is it 12 miles.

Cheers

Kaarlo
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: stephenm52 on June 19, 2019, 12:45:13 AM
I am always amazed that Americans feel  100 miles is just nothing.  When coming home at 6 PM from his work a very dear friend of mine in L.A. years ago said to me,  "Let's go and see my cousin, he lives just round the corner." Being Finnish I imagined that would be a 15 minutes drive. We drove over 400 miles round trip . :)  I sometimes drive to see the YAMAHA importer for Finland,  they used to be located  3 miles from my house. Now they have moved very far away,  is it 12 miles.

Cheers

Kaarlo

This does all sound familiar.  I live in the smallest state in the United States, it is smaller than Yosemite National Park.  Most people who live where I do think driving 10 or 15 miles is a long trip.
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: stephenm52 on June 19, 2019, 12:48:56 AM
Abby, what size shirt do you wear? I have many that I would be glad to send you from when I was still on stage. They are satin, variety of colors, have matching ties and all are XL. If they will fit, they are yours at no charge. I also have a summer tuxedo, which jacket, black slacks, size 44. All this stuff needs a new home, preferably a full-time entertainer. They are yours for the asking.

All the best,

Gary 8)

Abby, Gary has some nice clothing he was kind enough to send me a nice selection of his satin shirts, vests and matching ties/bow ties.  The only reason I didnít want his tux because I already had 3 and rarely wear them at gigs.
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: Pianoman on June 19, 2019, 04:10:03 AM
Abby, what size shirt do you wear? I have many that I would be glad to send you from when I was still on stage. They are satin, variety of colors, have matching ties and all are XL. If they will fit, they are yours at no charge. I also have a summer tuxedo, which jacket, black slacks, size 44. All this stuff needs a new home, preferably a full-time entertainer. They are yours for the asking.

All the best,

Gary 8)

Hello Gary.
You're a wonderful man and I thank you for your kind offer.

Alas, I'm unable to accept your offer as my place is overflowing with clothes as
well as the problem of size.

If I'm correct, I believe that my US size would be 34.

As for ties, I just bought tie number 105 yesterday and will probably buy a couple more
before the week is over.

I think that I have a tie fetish, as I can't walk past a tie shop without buying one or two.
Probably the same with shoes.

I have about 11 Tux suits that I use for my work, and 3 more for casual  events.

I also wear almost exclusively cotton shirts, of which I have bought 6 in May, to
add to the other ones that I already have.

Thank you for your kindness but I wouldn't know what to do with the extra clothing.

Best Regards old friend.
Abby.
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: beykock on June 19, 2019, 05:34:39 AM
Hi Giggers :

WOW !👏👏👏

You are ALL Wonderful People !😃😃😃

I call it " Real Friendship " !🏆🏆🏆

Babette
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: robinez on June 27, 2019, 10:41:41 AM
interesting topic.

i also have a korg pa4x and a yamaha genos so i can compare them really well and would like to add my thoughts about it.

My opionion is that it's a matter of personal preference, both keyboards are top of the line but also use a quite different approach.

i agree with all the comments in the previous posts, here are my thoughts regarding some of the comments:

Yamaha Registrations versus Korg songbook:
The yamaha registrations are more like snapshots from your current style setup and also include the style settings. The Korg songbook only has one registration (if you compare it to a genos), however, it uses a different approach, in Korg you can change anything in that style without destroying the original style, this goes really far, you can program new sounds for that specific style, You can change elements of the style (like different sound mappings, other bass patterns, etc), you can create chord sequence to play along for that specific song. Custom multipads and much more. It's extremely powerful and the heart of using a korg pa4x and one style or song registration can be changed in a way that it's impossible to recognise the original style (which still will be the original in the style library).

In the genos this is not really possible, if you make changes that way you have to save the style as a new style, also chord sequences are missing, the reprogramming of sounds on a genos is limited to a few parameters, etc.


Yamaha multipads versus Korg Multipads:
Here the yamaha has a much better implemenation then the korg. It's so easy on a genos to create your own multipads (audio or midi, even custom arpeggiators) with almost no limits to audiosize. Korg has very limited functionality on this part and the Genos is miles ahead in this area.


Styles:
This is a matter of preference. I think if your goal is to play covers that are sounding close to the original arrangements then the yamaha genos is the way to go, there are so many song styles available for the yamaha genos that the list seems endless. The korg pa4x has a much more limited list of styles. Also there are only a few song specific styles available for the korg Pa4x.

Sound wise the styles are mixed differently and also the density of styles are different. The Genos has complete arrangements and sounds more like playing the melody over a cd arrangement. The Korg Pa4x has much sparser styles where you have to do a lot more yourself to get close to playing a cover. The Korg Pa4x is more like playing with a live band.

One thing the Korg has great support for new styles, every 6 till 8 weeks there are free bonus styles available on their website in different genres that you can download for free. This is the case for almost anything on a korg, once you buy a korg then almost anything is free.


Updates:
The korg pa4x had 2 major updates in the last few years. These added lot's of new functions (like a new Kaos Effect Processor, a new very high quality piano, enhanced memory to 3 Gigabytes for your expansion packs by introducing sample streaming functionality and more new sounds, styles, etc). Every major update make it seems like having a brand new Keyboard. And all these updates are free of charge.

The Yamaha genos doesn't have this major features in their updates, the updates until now seems to add only minor addons to the feature set. Maybe in the future it will add major new functionalities?


OTS versus keyboard sets:
If you create your own sound setups (by combining the three upper and one lower element to a total sound) then the Korg Pa4x has a feature called Keyboard Sets, you can save your own sound sets to a library which you can call up anytime you want, even when playing live you can change infinitely between this keyboard sets.

Yamaha does this through the OTS feature, however, those are limited to the selected style. If you want to do something compareable then you have to create up till 10 registrations for your specific song. The OTS is changed depending on the connected style (unless you use the freeze button), but it is possible, although not as convenient as selecting realtime keyboards sets during play.



Creating your own arpeggiators:
Both keyboards can do this, but it is much easier on a yamaha Genos, for instance if you want to connect a new arpeggiator pattern to your left hand, then you can do this within minutes in the multipad midi creator and assign this to a multipad.


Creating your own styles:
The korg pa4x can analyse your midi files to create a new style from it. The results are sometimes really good and sometimes really bad (depending on the midi file). There is a feature on the korg pa4x where you can import a style created in your daw, those results are always really good if you set the labels correctly in your midi file.

The yamaha Genos can create styles onboard by recording every element or by merging elements of styles to create a new version (assembly). This is a very easy proces (much easier then on a korg pa4x), so it's a breeze to create great new styles from elements of the thousends of styles available on a yamaha genos.

I think that for the majority of users the Yamaha genos way is the best way to do it, since it's so easy to do.


Style locations
The korg pa4x has memory slots for every style. Also they can add extra memory slots by using a SET file on a usb stick, but still the memory location space is limited.

The yamaha genos is unlimited, it can load styles in realtime from your usb locations and has a much better system for style management.


User friendly:
The korg pa4x has a very difficult to understand interface, it can do a lot (it even has a fully fledged synthesizer including wave sequencing! on board), but since every button has multiple implementations you need to study a lot before you know your way around a korg pa4x.

The yamaha genos is very easy to understand, the user interface is straight forward and i didn't need much time to understand the feature set.


My conclusion:
There is no good or bad, it's all a matter of preference. Both keyboard are using a very different approach so they complement eachother very well. My opinion is that if you want to play covers in a convenient easy way with lot's of available song styles then the yamaha genos has no competition. If you are looking for a more complex keyboard with lots of programming features and more ranged on styles that sounds like you are playing with a live band then the korg pa4x is a more obvious choice.

Combining both board will give you everything. I'm glad that i have both keyboards, it's not nessecary of course, but it's a lot of fun :)
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: beykock on June 27, 2019, 11:30:55 AM
Hi Robinez :

Thank you for your comments.

As you have noticed well we discussed this issue many times before.  ;)
Finally we all are coming to the same conclusion.

You are not the only member with a high end Yamaha - and a high end Korg arranger keyboard in this group but most of you ...  are sharing the same conclusion.   

Imagine the Genos2 will have almost all the PA4X features. A real WOW, maybe ?
But ... will Korg wait that long to launch their PA4X successor ?
Will that new Korg kb add also some of the present Genos arranger features and even more ... ? Who knows ?

IMHO I believe both arrangers are great instruments ... they are serious competitors ( yet ) though.
In the near future competition urge might be increased between those two ... or they might become one big family in the long term, who knows.
The arranger market became very small and nowadays only 2 manufacturers are the main players.
 
A close collaboration between both companies is not excluded, I guess.
They are both located in Japan and far away from Europe and the USA. 

Finally it is up to the consumer to decide but their is one important difference : their OS.
Having two brands with a complete different OS makes it not always so easy for the enduser, IMHO.

Bye for now, Babette


Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: Wouter1972 on June 27, 2019, 12:08:51 PM

The arranger market became very small and nowadays only 2 manufacturers are the main players.

Finally it is up to the consumer to decide but their is one important difference : their OS.
Having two brands with a complete different OS makes it not always so easy for the enduser, IMHO.


Hi Babette,
I think for users of arranger keyboards it mostly is easy in the sense that you are familiair with the OS of the particular arranger and that it somehow works for you. The fact there is still something to choose for the consumer makes it even more sensible to me ;)
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: beykock on June 27, 2019, 01:51:43 PM
Hi Wouter :

Plse do not expect many players here would be happy with a Korg arranger or an additional Korg kb. 

There are plenty of reasons.

Most of these forum members are Yamaha customers for many, many years.

Their Yamaha software collection is super huge.

They are used to work with very useful PC programs especially made by other members of this group.
All these special Yamaha arranger keyboard progs are free of charge and are updated regulary.

Yamaha arranger keyboards are plug-and-play instruments, loved by ALL home players.

Most of these members are not familiar with Korg's OS and Korg's software.

Most members of this forum have no intention to learn Korg's OS. Why should they if they do not own a Korg.

Most of the members of this forum do not want a non-plug-and play arranger keyboard like a PA4X.
A PA4X is a nice keyboard if the player needs a lot of extra applications but most players here want a nice, easy to use pro arranger with the best sound and no technical problems, easy to sell at an attractive price.

Why should one kill a winning horse ?💰

Babette
 

Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: metcam on June 27, 2019, 02:45:28 PM


Yamaha arranger keyboards are plug-and-play instruments, loved by ALL home players.



Babette


This is correct for allmost all musicians from Western Europe ,USA ,Canada ETC. For rest of the world like
Balkan,Eastern Europe,turkey,Middle East etc... is a lot of work after baying yamaha before ready to play.
In my case I use only 5% stuff from Genos and everything else is External like Samples,styles,multipads, etc.

Best Regards
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: Pianoman on June 27, 2019, 03:27:12 PM
I'd like to thank all the Korg PA4X owners and others who have posted comments on
this topic.

I have learned more over the last two weeks about the differences between the Genos
and the Korg than has been written here over the last two years.

One reason for not hearing much about the Korg here is that apart from this being a Yamaha
forum, any mention of Korg here was poorly received, sometimes ( seldom though ) with
thinly disguised hostility by the faithful.

I wish that I had read this kind of discussion a year ago when I was contemplating buying a
new keyboard. It would have been most useful in helping me decide on my next
keyboard.

Thereís a distinction between a want and a need. Just because one wants something doesnít
mean one needs it.
Though this observation is quite obvious, it still is something many people struggle with.

There are those who can afford to "want" a new keyboard or two, and just go out and get it.
There are many here, mostly home players, and I must say that I envy them.
I have an acquaintance, a mediocre player at best, who falls into this category too.

Then there are those who need a new keyboard because their current keyboard has given
up the ghost, or they need one for professional reasons, or a variety of other reasons.
I fall into this category.

I suddenly found myself without a usable keyboard back in February, a couple of days before a
contractual gig. Needing one, I went out and bought the only available professional keyboard
in town, the Genos.

This thread has been educative and has persuaded me to take a look at the Korg too.
They're quite difficult to find in the secondhand market though.

It seems that Korg Pa4X owners appear to be not so eager to sell their instrument.

Having just bought a brand new Genos, I have to be careful with expenditure, and
would only buy a good used example.
There are so many other gig related things that are indispensable when playing
professionally.

Best Regards.
Abby.
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: beykock on June 27, 2019, 04:45:31 PM
Hi Abby :

I wonder if the PA4X is really the one for you after so many years Yamaha experience and daily professional use.

Apparently you were happy with your Tyros3, right ?
It sounds like the Genos was not exactly what you were looking for.

The Korg PA4X is a complete other beast.
A very professional kb but it is not a plug-and-play arranger.

Nobody can tell you here if the Genos is better than the PA4X or the PA4X better than the Genos. They are different. That is a fact.
Some members have them both and explained the differences well, I guess.

All depends on your personal needs and expectations.
The best way to find out is to have a PA4X ( for approx. 2 weeks ) in your home.

Hopefully your dealer can help you out ?

Bye for now, Babette

Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: Pianoman on June 27, 2019, 05:10:26 PM
Hi Abby :

I wonder if the PA4X is really the one for you

The Korg PA4X is a complete other beast.
A very professional kb but it is not a plug-and-play arranger.

Bye for now, Babette

Hello Babette.

I'm not sure that I'm really a plug and play kind of person.

I am very meticulous about knowing my keyboard and sometimes spend days tweaking
the keyboard, styles, effects, EQ,voices,registrations etc, before I am truly happy with it.

One would have to look at what I do with the keyboard, not the keyboard model.

In a previous thread about microphones, I believe that someone said that " a great
microphone in the hands of a mediocre singer will still produce a mediocre singer " or
something to that effect..

The same principle applies keyboards.
It's not about what keyboard you have,  it's what you do with it that counts.

I have heard music produced on the cheapest PSRs sound better than what is
being produced by players with TOTL keyboards.

Best Regards.

Abby.
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: beykock on June 27, 2019, 05:25:25 PM
I fully agree, Abby.
I really wonder what your arranger kb future will be.
Hope you will keep us posted.

Tomorrow it is the big day ... June 29, 2019.
Hopefully all Genos owners will be pleased the day after.

Babette

Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: DonM on June 27, 2019, 06:29:16 PM
I have a feeling Genos  owners are going to be disappointed with the update.  Hope I'm wrong.
As for the difference in operating systems between Korg PA4X and Yamaha... yes they are totally different, but being completely comfortable with both, I much prefer the Korg OS. 
There are tons of styles available for the Korg, including many, many song styles.  Not as many as Yamaha, but I find so many duplicates in the Yamaha style collections that it is very hard to find what you need or want. 
In short I've been able to find every style I need on both brands.
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: beykock on June 27, 2019, 07:07:11 PM
Hi DonM :

Since you are working with both OS programs, I am very interested to know why you prefer Korg's OS ?

New to me. Never heard that here before. 🌴
 
Thanks, Babette
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: valimaties on June 27, 2019, 10:36:18 PM

(1)

Creating your own styles:
The korg pa4x can analyse your midi files to create a new style from it. The results are sometimes really good and sometimes really bad (depending on the midi file). There is a feature on the korg pa4x where you can import a style created in your daw, those results are always really good if you set the labels correctly in your midi file.

The yamaha Genos can create styles onboard by recording every element or by merging elements of styles to create a new version (assembly). This is a very easy proces (much easier then on a korg pa4x), so it's a breeze to create great new styles from elements of the thousends of styles available on a yamaha genos.

I think that for the majority of users the Yamaha genos way is the best way to do it, since it's so easy to do.

(2)
Combining both board will give you everything. I'm glad that i have both keyboards, it's not nessecary of course, but it's a lot of fun :)

1. Definitely, you have to study both Style Creator (Yamaha) and Style Recorder (Korg). Korg's Style Recorder has ALL the features Yamaha's Style Creator has, and has more 90% functionality build-in which Yamaha's SC does not have - transpose, export parts, different measure type for each style part, more than one measure for fills and break, (extra: you can tell which main loads after a fill is played), you can tell if fill starts immediately, or next measure, assembly function, and so on... A lot of functionality there. You can do a lot of job directly on your keyboard!
More than that, one BIG functionality, is that you can save all modified parameters in realtime, when you play a song ;)

2. YES, well said. Those two arrangers are the best together, but really, I want to have my Genos's sound with most of Korg functionality, and I say about Style Creator, Voice Editor and Realtime saving functionality!Those are essential to an arranger!

Regards,
Vali
Title: Re: I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Post by: DonM on June 28, 2019, 12:11:57 AM
Hi DonM :

Since you are working with both OS programs, I am very interested to know why you prefer Korg's OS ?

New to me. Never heard that here before. 🌴
 
Thanks, Babette

Well you probably wouldn't expect to hear it here.  :)
The Songbook function is fantastic.  The Vocal Harmonizer and processor is the best in any arranger.  It rivals stand-along external units.
You can make edits, changes at any time, even while playing.
You can replace or reorder factory and user styles.  You can edit any style and save it, and then have your choice of the edited style or the original.
The Keyboard Sets (OTS) are much more versatile.
There are WAY more programmable sliders, buttons, etc. 
It takes a fairly inexpensive 5-switch foot controller, to which you can assign almost any functions.
It is quick and easy to pull up text, or other files, again, even while playing if needed.
There are a few things I prefer on the Yamaha, such as the easier access to USB styles, but not many.
It has a touch-strip in addition to the joystick.
It has a chord sequencer that works great and you can associate any sequences to a Songbook entry if you wish.
I could go on and on, but would still leave out many features.
Probably said too much already.  There is no right or wrong choice, just great options on both brands.