PSR Tutorial Forum
Genos (12 Boards) => Genos - General => Topic started by: beykock on March 16, 2019, 08:17:49 AM
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For the time being it looks like the Genos has only one competitor : the Korg PA4X.
A Korg PA5X is not expected soon after Korg have presented the PA4X update recently.
Wersi and Ketron seem not to be very active to introduce new arranger keyboards soon.
Is it their intention to launch new highend arrangers during the Musikmesse 2019 ?
Babette
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Is it their intention to launch new highend arrangers during the Musikmesse 2019 ?
Soon we will know.
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You forgot the Tyros 5, Babette.
It is still a compeditor of Genos. :)
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The flagship of arrangers is Genos and would not expect another top arranger for around another two years.
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Let’s remember one thing about the competition to the Yamaha brand:
There is NONE, when you factor in this FORUM and WEBSITE.
The PRSTUTORIAL site clearly puts the YAMAHA brand far above all the competition, they are not even CLOSE.
And if you are just going to “set and play” at your keyboard, then why in the heck would you purchase a top of the line keyboard? No matter what BRAND you choose, you will very soon get BORED with the limited set of STYLES that come with it.
If that is how you approach to using the keyboard, open up your wallet and purchase as many of them as you can afford to beat your style boredom issue.
btw .. I am thinking about bookmarking this reply for future use for when this question shows up again. ;)
Regards
Drake
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Hi Drake,
I know many people that have bought Genos for a sit and play at home use. The styles are very good and adapt to lots of songs and of course all the other styles available sound great on this keyboard. No way would style boredom set in. Voices are great also and you can tweak away until you get the ones you prefer. Lots of nice features to. Would be very hard to get bored in any way.
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I think that Drake is inferring that one of the great benefits of Yamaha keyboards is the access to many original and edited styles through this and other similar websites, and there is no doubt that is a big plus. But everyone has different priorities. some people love to manipulate every feature to the nth degree. Access to lots of styles and song customized styles, and customized styles might be important to some, but other people maybe not nearly so much. Some may think the style editing is easier to do on a Korg, or Ketron or whatever. And some people may not even use a big variety of styles.
I don't have style boredom problems, because for me the backing is not a big deal, and at the top level, all the keyboards are good enough.
I have Yamaha, and it's a great keyboard. I have never owned Korg or Ketron, but those other keyboards remain successful in the market because they also have their strong points, and dedicated followers. I respect that, and I don't see anything wrong with discussion of what is happening in the market, or sensible discussion of various keyboards or shortcomings with Yamaha, as long as it doesn't descend into silly Yamaha bashing. For example, I have observed when trying out keyboards in a store, that Korg may be a little bit more user friendly in some regards. One little thing I saw immediately for example was that they have a simple selector for the fingering method. This means I can change back and forward between full keyboard, fingered or fingered on bass, whereas I have to dig into the menu to do that on Yamaha. I think this is something players might do frequently, I know I do. Of course, someone will immediately point out I can do this easily on Yamaha by setting up registrations, but the point is that I don't need to do that on Korg, and it means I also don't have to have that registration bank sitting there all the time when I might want to use it for something else, like favorite voices. Or have to mark the bank so I remember which registration changes what. Another thing that struck me was that if I was gigging, the Korg seemed a bit easier to set up play lists.I don't have a Genos, but from what I understand, Genos has a moved a bit in this direction now, so that differentiator may have disappeared.
I am not trying to start a discussion or argument about how to do things on keyboards or who does what best, just making the point that we all view these things differently, depending on our background and needs.
A few individual features wasn't enough to convince me to change brands because the keyboard is a complete entity, and you weigh up everything, including the legacy issues, Changing brands is work, so the payoff needs to justify it!
There are pros and cons with every keyboard at individual feature level. And everyone makes their choice. The point is that there is no definitive answer to what is best. Yamaha have a good product, and a great product family. But then so do Korg.
Mike
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Well said Mike. I don't want to get into this, but there are at least three good choices, as Ketron very recently introduced a new top of the line arranger, and a module for those that prefer using controller keyboard. As always with them, it sounds fantastic, but support is really limited.
I also have a Roland EA7, not top of the line, but really really good for not much money.
I seldom touch my PSR anymore.
The Korg forum is quite helpful, but not as much a "family" as this one! Ketron forum not much, but it is administered by the guy in charge in the U.S.
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Being a real Yamaha arranger keyboard fan for so many years,
I am very happy and grateful we can talk about competitor products here.
IMHO it is very useful and important to know the arranger keyboards of Yamaha's competitors.
The more one knows about the competitor(s) products, the better one can understand why her/his Yamaha arranger is so good and where improvements are to be made, if possible and necessary.
For me a Yamaha arranger is the best choice.
I am so familiar with Yamaha's arrangers. For many reasons I am not interested in buying another brand.
For my personal applications a Yamaha arranger is the best electronic instrument : I love the sound, the plug-and-play operation, the very reliable technology and last but not least :
Yamaha's software.
Best regards, Babette
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Hi Drake,......The styles are very good and adapt to lots of songs and of course all the other styles available sound great on this keyboard. No way would style boredom set in. Voices are great also and you can tweak away until you get the ones you prefer.....
Thanks Eileen, I feel the same. I believe what people feel disappointed about is that we were made to believe YAMAHA cared about us who had bought the Genos and would fix the software inconsistencies that still exist. Because they are indeed minor it makes buyers sense an attitude that is very common now-adays, and that irritates a clienteel that still remembers times when a different attitude prevailed.
Just an example, I had a YAMAHA keyboard and wrote Rellingen, the melody harmonization for dim chords like needed in Moonlight serenade did not work in all fingering-inversions. They wrote me I was wrong. I happened to go to the Frankfurt show for a client of mine and went to the YAMAHA stand, asked for the boss and showed him the problem. He seemed genuinly surprised. 6 weeks later I got a nice letter saying, "Thanks you were right" and 8 weeks later the problem was solved. In those days there were no software updates. They sent a new integrated circuit that could be inserted into a socket!
I also believe the fact that Genos on this site was claimed to work perfectly even before update 1.30, which it did not, was detrimental to the purpose of this site, which I perceive as not only helping those who have bought but also make prospective byers choose the product. As I have since Tyros One never bought but YAMAHA I am in no position to compare Genos with competing products that many on this site seem to be able to do. I believe for many the question was not Genos or brand X, it was wait a while,stay with Tyros, or invest in Genos when it should not yet have been put on the market.
Cheers
Kaarlo
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I think you will never get agreement on this forum as so many people want to use there keyboards in different ways and use different programmes to produce there music. Several other small forums bought Genos to play it as it is and are more than happy with it. A lot being home players who also do the occasional gig. Most of these members went from Tyros 5 to Genos and have not looked back. Mostly used for there own pleasure and they really do enjoy playing it and produce some very good music.
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I was initially looking to purchase a Korg PaX7-76, after having my TyrosII for ages, and it is showing its wear (screen faulty, mainly - I use a secondary VGA screen often used in photography - works great!). But it was the familiarity with Yamaha that convinced me on the Genos, having also owned an original Tyros before that. (Started off with a KN5000 then a Roland VA7).
I had listened to numeros PaX7 videos on the great sounds and all, and of course they are. But it was the familiarity with the Yamaha "system" of things that made me stay. Listening to the voices comparibly, I can't see much difference in sound (at least over YouTube - real time might be different).
After seeing all the positive comments on the Genos, I'm glad of my decision, and I thank you all for your contributions.
Cheers
Dave
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Hi Dave :
I agree.
Once a Yamaha arranger keyboard player is used to work with Yamaha, it is not easy ( for so many reasons ) to go for another brand.
I think most Yamaha customers do love to upgrade but do not want to leave Yamaha.
I believe most Yamaha arranger players are very pleased and happy with their instrument.
That might be the reason why Yamaha's arranger keyboard division is so popular and became the market leader for almost 17 years now.
It all started with the sales of the Tyros1 in 2002 and Yamaha have no intention to give up their #1 market position in the ( near ) future, I guess.
Babette
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Hi Dave,
I think to make true comparisons you have to sit and play each keyboard as it comes in the same environment. Also to try the operating systems and how easy it is for you to do the things you want.
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Possibly true, Eilieen, but what I did was watch umpteen videos on the PA4X as well as downloading the User Manual and having a good read through. I have to admit, I was favourably impressed with the sounds and styles that were generated, but again the choice was to stick to Yamaha for the familiarity of everything. The added memory registrations (now 10) was another factor that made up my decision. Often times on the Tyros II, eight weren't quite enough for some situations.
I had done similarly with the Genos - watched many videos, downloaded the User & Reference manuals and read thoroughly - still do. Yamaha was the overall winner. I've seen the PA4X in action, and it is indeed a great instrument, but it's rather like the old Ford vs GM argument - to each his own, isn't it.
Regards
Dave
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The Pa4X is a great instrument!
Comparing the styles of the Genos and PA4x it is my opinon that the Genos Sytyles sound like a CD production while the Korg feels like a live band.
No good or bad - just what prerfer ....
The Genos acoustics sounds - are the best by far
Last - the Korg offers something Yamaha don't - "temp reset ...
This little button (On the Pa4X) allows you to reset the style to the first note of the bar no matter where you are in it.
So songs which are normally 4/4 and have only one bar of 3/4 could be easily plays (by resetting to the 1 on the specific bar).
With Genos - Yamaha finally offered the "half bar" break, but this is very tricky to operate, can be initiated only with a pedal and can only handle symmetric tempo.
Both great instruments! Both are highly recommended ...
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For the time being it looks like the Genos has only one competitor : the Korg PA4X.
A Korg PA5X is not expected soon after Korg have presented the PA4X update recently.
Wersi and Ketron seem not to be very active to introduce new arranger keyboards soon.
Is it their intention to launch new highend arrangers during the Musikmesse 2019 ?
Babette
5 months after the last major pa3x update, the pa4x was released..
Better do some research before making bold statements 😜
And Ketron just launched their new flagship SD9 Pro last year...
Wersi OAX1 is a differnt thing, the way Wersi upgrades their quallity keys makes them have a lifespan of over a decade.. it uses the latest greatest pc hardware and vst technollogy...
And Roland left the high end arranger and workstation market so it seems
Korg is comming later this year with a new high end arranger for sure...
The real competition, will be some software based arrangers..
That will offer a lot of functionallity and integration..
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The Pa4X is a great instrument!
Comparing the styles of the Genos and PA4x it is my opinon that the Genos Sytyles sound like a CD production while the Korg feels like a live band.
No good or bad - just what prerfer ....
The Genos acoustics sounds - are the best by far
I totally agree...
Last - the Korg offers something Yamaha don't - "temp reset ...
This little button (On the Pa4X) allows you to reset the style to the first note of the bar no matter where you are in it.
So songs which are normally 4/4 and have only one bar of 3/4 could be easily plays (by resetting to the 1 on the specific bar).
With Genos - Yamaha finally offered the "half bar" break, but this is very tricky to operate, can be initiated only with a pedal and can only handle symmetric tempo.
Both great instruments! Both are highly recommended ...
This feature will be in the next update as an assignable function :) Stay tune :)
...
I think most Yamaha customers do love to upgrade but do not want to leave Yamaha.
I believe most Yamaha arranger players are very pleased and happy with their instrument.
I'm totally agree...
That might be the reason why Yamaha's arranger keyboard division is so popular and became the market leader for almost 17 years now.
It all started with the sales of the Tyros1 in 2002 and Yamaha have no intention to give up their #1 market position in the ( near ) future, I guess.
;D ;D ;D
If you look on the internet, since Korg released PA3X it has some rewards of the best seller arranger In The World. So where is the truth? ;D ;D
Every brand has claim itself as the best seller, or the leader off... It is a marketing thing to show entire world they are the best :)
Sincerely, counting how many videos there are on the youtube with Korg (Pa3X and PA4X) I think the number of arranger units sold are much bigger than Yamaha's T5 and Genos.
Counting on the field, I did not see lot of Genos on Romania, because of number of features that Korg implements in their arrangers (it's another discussion I saw on this site a lot of times which starts polemics :) ).
I preferred the sound of Yamaha as it is, with studio sound or CD sound, as Yinon said.
Even if I will buy a Pa4X (which I understood from real sources, is the last arranger from Korg PA series - BTW this is for Bachus :D ) I will continue to use Yamaha because of it's warm sound :) And if they implement missing things, there will be an almost perfect arranger for MY needs.
Regards,
Vali
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The Pa4X is a great instrument!
Comparing the styles of the Genos and PA4x it is my opinon that the Genos Sytyles sound like a CD production while the Korg feels like a live band.
No good or bad - just what prerfer ....
The Genos acoustics sounds - are the best by far
Last - the Korg offers something Yamaha don't - "temp reset ...
This little button (On the Pa4X) allows you to reset the style to the first note of the bar no matter where you are in it.
So songs which are normally 4/4 and have only one bar of 3/4 could be easily plays (by resetting to the 1 on the specific bar).
With Genos - Yamaha finally offered the "half bar" break, but this is very tricky to operate, can be initiated only with a pedal and can only handle symmetric tempo.
Both great instruments! Both are highly recommended ...
Back on the age old discussion Korg vs Yamaha styles..
They are diffent in nature, however, Its much easier to make a Genos style sound like a Korg style, then the other way around
Most of the time, you just need to mute some tracks, edit the drums, and change some volumes..
Where most Korg styles are much more basic.. thats what creates the live sound... but when you want to sound like yamaha... you often need to add more tracks.. which takes considerably more effort..
And while i can name a few functions on the PA4x, i can name more things on the Genos that are not on the Korg..
and what Korg can do, you in general can take care of programming performance memory banks on the Genos..
This is also where they are different in approach of user interface..
Om Yamaha you preprogram things and controll from the performance memmories..
Korg allows you to do much more things on the fly by direct controlls..
However, their preprogramming can't come close to the Genos.
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They are diffent in nature, however, Its much easier to make a Genos style sound like a Korg style, then the other way around
Most of the time, you just need to mute some tracks, edit the drums, and change some volumes..
Where most Korg styles are much more basic.. thats what creates the live sound... but when you want to sound like yamaha... you often need to add more tracks.. which takes considerably more effort..
...
What??!?!??!???!
Sorry man, you don't really know anything about Korg's Style engine, if you tell us this b...s....
A style on Korg is like a tree of subfolders... Which means, all those 6 chord variations are made by 8 tracks. Which means totally 48 tracks you can use to make a complex style, with different formulas for any of tracks in style. Practically, there are 6 styles with 8 channels in one! THIS will give you live sound. Using only one chord variation will give you a monotony in singing process.
Yamaha uses maximum 16 channels in style, 8 which are visible for users even in Style Creator, and 8 which you can use them to create chord variations for different instruments in style, but not in keyboard, only on PC software (a minus). But you are limited by those 8 channels. And I tell you, in some conditions, you cannot do a lot of things only with those 8 channels.
Yes, using of registration memory you can make a lot of things which you can also do them on Korg, as you said by direct functions and by REAL TIME SAVING process, which Yamaha definitely has to implement. But let not start iterate on how many functions has one or another, because, definitely, Genos will lose ;)
Don't blame Korg, because you don't like it or you don't know more things about it... I don't blame Genos because has glitches and a lot of functions missing and you have to use a lot of PC software to make it sound better or to be able to use it as it has to be with the work made on it not on PC.
These keyboards are made by different guys, different minds for different type of people, which ACCEPT what they give, on both sides, Yamaha and Korg. Both of them are TOTL. Both of them are sold a lot. I don't know which one are best sold, I don't care. I know both of them and I know that what can you do on Korg you cannot do on Genos and vice versa... If I could, I would have bought both, because both of them are the best on the market.
EOD...
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I totally agree...
This feature will be in the next update as an assignable function :) Stay tune :)
I'm totally agree...
;D ;D ;D
Vali -
Is this from a trusted source?
Don't play with my emotions man ... ;D
Thanks
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What??!?!??!???!
Sorry man, you don't really know anything about Korg's Style engine, if you tell us this b...s....
A style on Korg is like a tree of subfolders... Which means, all those 6 chord variations are made by 8 tracks. Which means totally 48 tracks you can use to make a complex style, with different formulas for any of tracks in style. Practically, there are 6 styles with 8 channels in one! THIS will give you live sound. Using only one chord variation will give you a monotony in singing process.
Yamaha uses maximum 16 channels in style, 8 which are visible for users even in Style Creator, and 8 which you can use them to create chord variations for different instruments in style, but not in keyboard, only on PC software (a minus). But you are limited by those 8 channels. And I tell you, in some conditions, you cannot do a lot of things only with those 8 channels.
Yes, using of registration memory you can make a lot of things which you can also do them on Korg, as you said by direct functions and by REAL TIME SAVING process, which Yamaha definitely has to implement. But let not start iterate on how many functions has one or another, because, definitely, Genos will lose ;)
Don't blame Korg, because you don't like it or you don't know more things about it... I don't blame Genos because has glitches and a lot of functions missing and you have to use a lot of PC software to make it sound better or to be able to use it as it has to be with the work made on it not on PC.
These keyboards are made by different guys, different minds for different type of people, which ACCEPT what they give, on both sides, Yamaha and Korg. Both of them are TOTL. Both of them are sold a lot. I don't know which one are best sold, I don't care. I know both of them and I know that what can you do on Korg you cannot do on Genos and vice versa... If I could, I would have bought both, because both of them are the best on the market.
EOD...
I am not talking about the technical features of the korg styles
I am talking about the musical arrangements..
Isn’t that where its all about.. the arrangements? And not about the technical features?
Its how they are composed... the yamaha styles are busier.. and so cutting some parts, while boosting other parts make them feel and sound much more live...
And about the korg several variations in style stracks?
Did you ever research how many of your korg onboard styles use mre then 2 variatins?
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Hi Guys,
After reading all these PA4X and Genos comments,
it sounds like one needs both arrangers to meet a perfect combination of features and sound ?
Babette
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No Bachus, it's not that! I disagree one more time and I tell you why!
Most of factory styles (Yamaha or Korg) meet only 8 channels (Yamaha) and only one CV on Korg, all 8, on both Y and K. Why does Korg seems more live but Yamaha don't? Yamaha uses a lot of DSPs as Hall, Delay, etc. These types of DSPs will rich frequency range, and in some cases it will do a lot of trouble instead of a good sound. This rich DSP sound is more like a studio sound, not a live band sound. Did you made any test with a spectral view of a song played with DSP active and with DSP inactive, to see the differences? (DSP - Hall, Delay.. not distortion, or compression, to be clear)
K uses its sound board on the main out with almost 10-20dB boost. It's a huge boost, but this gives the power in K sound.
Personally, I have eliminate entire the hall on drums or any other instrument that is part of beat. Brasses or pianos, or other instruments I write on PHR channels and PAD, I give them 10-20 units of custom hall DSP, edited on frequency, to meet only high frequency, because if it gives me hall on low frequency, will alter in the bad way the sound.
We do in almost every time our gigs in large rooms, restaurants or large ballrooms, with 200-300 peoples. In most of the cases the rooms already have a bit of hall in, or a delay on high notes, or a very bad acoustic for low frequencies. If I use DSP hall over room's hall, the people in that room will not hear clearly what I sing and the entire sound quality is a disaster.
Did you hear a live band? How many bands did you hear using DSPs on beat instruments (drums, bass, accompaniment guitars, etc) ? Yes, indeed, is good in small rooms, but will not give you sensation of a live band. If you close the eyes and hear the sound you will bet to a CD playing, not a real player! That's the sensation!
Regards
Vali
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Hi Vali,
Thank you very much for sharing your gigging experiences.
Very interesting information.👌
IMHO Abby ( Pianoman ), one of the pro Genos giggers of this forum, is in the best position to comment your observations. I hope he does.😉
Best regards, Babette
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Hi Vali,
Thank you very much for sharing your gigging experiences.
Very interesting information.
IMHO Abby ( Pianoman ), one of the pro Genos giggers of this forum, is in the best position to comment your observations. I hope he does.
Best regards, Babette
Hi Babette.
Yes, indeed, Abby is a super-great player, a OMB. Is one of the top gig player I saw and hear.
It seems that some of genres require some DSP, indeed, but where, in live or on a CD?! :) These are my opinions concerning my band's sound and concerning other bands in my country and county ... Depends on a lot of factors to make your sound sounds like a live not like a CD sound. And of course, the PA system used for gigs is a second factor in live sound quality for a room/ballroom/restaurant.
I encountered, for example, a bad behavior of using Hall on drums and that is the reason I don't use it: the hall effect is propagate to Kick element of drum, too.. It's a very bad thing, because the kick has to be dry and very short, has to be like a short hit. And if you put the second DSP to drums, for example a compressor, the hall will be veeeery long. That's why Yamaha misses some functions like editing of drums in realtime, to be able to add or to remove DSPs to the drum elements, like Korg has a dedicated page for this, in realtime ;)
Regards,
Vali
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Personally, I have eliminate entire the hall on drums or any other instrument that is part of beat. Brasses or pianos, or other instruments I write on PHR channels and PAD, I give them 10-20 units of custom hall DSP, edited on frequency, to meet only high frequency, because if it gives me hall on low frequency, will alter in the bad way the sound.
We do in almost every time our gigs in large rooms, restaurants or large ballrooms, with 200-300 peoples. In most of the cases the rooms already have a bit of hall in, or a delay on high notes, or a very bad acoustic for low frequencies. If I use DSP hall over room's hall, the people in that room will not hear clearly what I sing and the entire sound quality is a disaster.
Did you hear a live band? How many bands did you hear using DSPs on beat instruments (drums, bass, accompaniment guitars, etc) ? Yes, indeed, is good in small rooms, but will not give you sensation of a live band. If you close the eyes and hear the sound you will bet to a CD playing, not a real player! That's the sensation!
Regards
Vali
Vali, I totally agree with your views regarding the overwhelming amount of DSP in
Yamaha's attempt to make the Genos sound rich.
As a Genos owner, and before that, when I conducted several testing sessions of this
instrument, I made my views about the Genos very clear in many previous posts, so I will
refrain from rehashing those views all over again, and concentrate on the subject of
DSPs.
I used to get annoyed in the late 70s and even till the present time when I heard crooners
(Especially European Schlager singers it seems) use so much echo and reverb in their vocals, thus
completely drowning what would otherwise be a good song, in DSP effects.
I have to give a special medal to my wife for her patience, for putting up with me whenever
I started freaking out over such DSP abuse.
The abundant use of and dependence on DSP effects in arrangers might be just dandy
for home users, but it isn't really helpful in live playing.
As you have mentioned, when playing live, especially, indoors where most large halls
(and even some smaller ones) have a natural reverb, it is wise to turn down or even
completely turn off all DSP reverb and echo effects.
I too dial down the DSP effects from 64 down to 20 on most gigs, even when playing
outside, and sometimes them off completely.
Another thing to consider is muting all unnecessary channels or at least dialling them
down as much as possible.
Imagine your typical live band, it usually consists of 4 to 5 musicians.
Too many channels playing all at once end up irritating your audience, instead of
entertaining them.
Never apply overkill, it conjures up a "Canned Music" image that we all want to avoid.
I always ask myself when shopping, "do I really need this, or can I live without it?
That way I don't end up with a house full of unnecessary stuff.
I apply that same logic to many things, including when playing music. .
Last night I played outdoors, at a hotel whose 4 buildings are placed in a square
configuration.
And behind those buildings were residential apartments built on a hill.
Every word in my Microphone and every note that I played during my sound check
bounced back and repeated itself at least twofold because of that.
So I shut off all the reverb and echo on all instruments and the microphone.
That instantly gave me a better sound.
It is of course a matter of preference and sound perception, but for live playing less
is always more.
I remember reading somewhere, probably in a forum or maybe in my Yamaha EMX5016CF
mixer manual about effects that " If you can hear the effects, then you're probably using
too much already."
Below are pictures of last night's setup, to illustrate the buildings and how that may
affect verberations.
Best Regards.
Abby.
PS: I don't know why the pictures always upload sideways.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Hi Guys,
First of all I want to thank Abby for his input, time, answers, comments and pictures.
Great job !👍
Reading all this information and comments, I am confused though.😯
PLEASE HELP !
Does the Genos need a lot of tweaking to sound like a " live " band ?
I understand live audiance wants to hear " live " music and does not like ( too ) many effects, am I right ?
Does that mean an audiance prefers the PA4X sound ?
What about the Tyros sound ?
Plse advise. Thanks !
Best regards, Babette
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Unfortunately, there is no "One Size Fits All" when it comes to arranger keyboards. All of the TOTL boards have their strong points and weak points. For example, the Korg PA4X has hot drums in comparison to Yamaha's drums which are more CD or studio sounding. The PA4X drums are louder, and a bit more harsh, thus sound a bit more like a live drummer, but still not the same as a live drummer.
Korg also has a great vocal processor, while Yamaha's is good and can be tuned to sound nearly as good as Korg's sounds right out of the box. But, it takes a lot of work to achieve this, and most folks are not willing to spend that much time tuning their vocal processor, then saving all the information to a registration.
As for effects, every venue is different. Over the years, I think I had encountered every type of venue from something as small as a living room party to an outdoor concert, to performing inside a big-top tent that had rubberized canvas walls. Again, there is no "One Size Fits All" when it comes to effects as well. Some venues where there was lots of sound absorbing materials, carpeted floors, acoustic tile ceilings, soft wall coverings, effects were a necessity. Without a certain amount of reverb, your vocals and the keyboard would sound quite lifeless and flat.
That said, for five years I had my own band, a 5-piece country music group, consisting of a drummer, bass player, fiddle player and two guitar players, both of which were vocalists as well. We usually had a good time performing together, though when the free drinks began coming in from various audience members, timing would gradually worsen. By the end of the night, there were times when I wondered how the bass player could still stand upright. So, sounding like a live band is not always a great thing.
When I purchased my first arranger keyboard, which was made by the same folks that made my microwave oven, it had 12 styles and about 20 voices. I was ecstatic! I no longer had to worry about the bass player or the drummer getting out of time, the vibes and piano sounded great, and I didn't have to split the proceeds with 4 other band members. Sure, I missed performing with my friends, but for the first time in my entertainer career, I was able make a living - WOW!
As arranger keyboards progressed, there were massive strides in the overall improvements in sound quality and realism. Guitars, pianos, strings, etc... sound incredibly realistic. Keep in mind, though, that our audiences, obviously, knew it was just us on the stage, playing a keyboard/synth and singing. Some folks thought we were playing canned (pre-recorded) music, CDs, tapes, and singing along with it, while other skeptics even thought I was lip-syncing - LOL.
Unfortunately, very few audience members consider the amount of training, work, time and effort required in order to be an OMB entertainer and keep a dance floor filled. Our arranger keyboards are incredibly complex musical instruments, that in the right hands, sounds as good, or better than a full band. However, as I stated above, there is NO "One Size Fits All" when it comes to arranger keyboards, or for that matter, any other facet of music.
All the best,
Gary 8)
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What does a live band sound like?
Does it sound like The Rolling Stones.... or like Glenn Miller?
Like Queen ..... or Oscar Peterson ?
Like Mantovani.... or The Electric Light Orchestra?
Like a Korg PA4X .... or a Genos?
There is no definable 'live sound'. All these keyboards are great.
What we prefer is largely subjective.
Mike
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Both instruments sound great when the keyboardist chooses how they must sound in each case and not use the "box" settins, styles,voices,effects etc.
Vali is well observed that reverb and hall effects are everywhere in Yamaha's preset styles.
If you want to play for a gig, prepare your sound and your styles accordingly.
If you want to make more complex orchestrations use regs with multiple style parts and do the same.
I play in my home and with headphones on (so there is no reverb and hall effects problems).
I also play mostly 80's,synthesizer and nowdays Dance music so there is no such thing as a "live" band sound in these kinds of music.Using effects is a "must".
If someone is having trouble with these kind of stuff he can always ask for help in the forum,do some reading and watch some videos.
I always read on the foroum about "muted" parts, wrong preset OTS etc.
Why don't we all just modify the styles and resave them once and for all?
Is there anyone who owns a Genos or a Tyros or a Psr S that his keyboard doesn't allow him to do so?
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Hi all.
I don't say it must sounds like someone, Mike. How does sound "Live"?! It's simple: Not agglomerate! What means that? So lets see: some of genre can accept a little bit of reverb/hall, like 16 Beat, which can accept more than 8 Beat, which can accept more than Disco/Dance which can accept more than Rock&Roll... Again, what means that? That means, the faster it is, much less echo/hall/reverb you can give to a style channel. What channels can have a lit bit more hall/reverb? Those which have some interventions, like Phrases channels. In my opinion, the instruments which give as the rhythm's beat, like Drums, Guitars, Bass (not even 1 % hall/reverb), must have small amount of these DSPs. Maybe they sound good on small woofers or small PA systems, like 100-250 W, but if you play on a big stage with big PA system or Line Array System, it's another sound there. The frequencies respond in other way on a loud volume. Make a test with any of your system, with the same settings, play with a volume of 25%, after 5 minutes play with a volume of 40-60%, and finally play with 80%, like audience wants when they are on the ring, to feel the groove, to feel the rhythm. The sound changes for each level , because louder you are, the room starts resonate, or even the free environment.
So, in conclusion, I think Live means "understanding" very well, each of the instrument's notes and hits. Yes, I love also the DSP effects over some of style's channels, but in some conditions (most of them) in gigs, it's a disaster using them. At home, with my headphones, or my HS7 sounds awesome with DSP, but like a CD. I feel great, like it has to be, in my studio :D
Regards,
Vali
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I would like to thank all of you for your very interesting feedback !
Once again I learned a lot !👍👍👍
I agree wirh Gary : " One cannot have it all ! "
Best wishes, Babette
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That said, for five years I had my own band, a 5-piece country music group, consisting of a drummer, bass player, fiddle player and two guitar players, both of which were vocalists as well. We usually had a good time performing together, though when the free drinks began coming in from various audience members, timing would gradually worsen. By the end of the night, there were times when I wondered how the bass player could still stand upright. So, sounding like a live band is not always a great thing.
Gary
Hay, quit picking on us Bass Players there. ;D
For me it was my drummer, I never knew what his mood for the night was going to be. Was he going to speed things up or wanna beat the heck out his drums tonight. You can't turn the drummer down in a live band but you sure can on an Arranger. ;)
That said I do miss playing with other people a lot.
Back to the topic: I think the Korg having some of their style parts EIGHT MEASURES LONG really adds to the LIVE SOUND effect. Yamaha really ought to BEGIN doing this for at least some of their styles.
I have in the past extended my Yamaha styles parts out to 8 measures in order to record PHR needed riffs to the style, generally HORN sections. Just this week I was experimenting with a country style in which I extended the MAIN A to 8 bars. I spent about 20 minutes coming up with a very good guitar picking riff for the 8 bars.
It was hard to figure out what would work, as you need to record the full 8 bars in the key of C. Keep in mind the riff also had to sound correct when I use the pattern when playing over an F and G chord too.
I wish I understood more about music theory as that might speed things up creating such riffs. But I was still able to create something professional sounding with a bit of trial and error recording.
So, if I can do it ... Yamaha get on the STICK guys.
Regards
Drake
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Let’s remember one thing about the competition to the Yamaha brand:
The PRSTUTORIAL site clearly puts the YAMAHA brand far above all the competition, they are not even CLOSE.....
Regards
Drake
Thanks Drake.
I understand and accept this site exists to support YAMAHA's marketing, just read the rules for posting.
But when it is overdone, like claiming the Genos was very good at 1.1 when it definitely was not "gig-ready" it does not serve its purpose.
The obvious "alternate truth" made me not buy the Genos for quite a while. I actually felt the instrument my dealer gave me for trial was defective. And he agreed. It was not. But unfortunately there were a lot of people I am sure were not paid for their contributions by Yamaha who joined the the indiscriminate praise choire.
I believe the byas should be a bit less evident. There is a German saying, "man merkt die Absicht und wird verstimmt" e.g. you notice the intent and get disgruntled.
Cheers
Kaarlo
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Kaarlo, Yamaha does not, and has never paid anyone on this site for any statements, or anything else, for that matter. Keep in mind this is essentially a Yamaha support site that is not funded by anyone other than individual contributions by forum members. Because of this, it will, obviously, place its emphasis on Yamaha arranger keyboards - not other brands. Sure, most of us are more than willing to help owners of Korg, Roland, etc... with any problems within their area of expertise, and this has happened many times in the past.
Now, when you got that first Genos, in YOUR opinion, it was not gig ready. Well, most keyboards are not "GIG READY" fresh out of the box. They ALL need to be tuned, registrations created, etc... I have owned more than 2 dozen arranger keyboards in the years I was a full-time entertainer and none of them went on stage until I spent up to 3 months getting everything ready - none! As I stated in another thread, there is no "One Size Fits All" arranger keyboard - it just does not exist, especially when you are an on-stage musician/entertainer.
All the best,
Gary 8)
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Hi Kaarlo,
Thanks for your input.
I would like to know why you finally have decided to buy a Genos ?
Do you regret this decision ?
What are your plans for the near future ?
Is it your intention to sell your Genos and replace it ?
Looking forward to reading your reply soon.
Thanks and best regards, Babette
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Drake - know what you mean, recording phrases over a single chord in style creator and guessing how they will sound with multiple chord changes is quite frustrating.
I know quite a bit about music theory but it doesn’t really help, it’s still largely trial And error. And it’s not quick to do the trial bit. You have to save, exit, select , play, and work out what goes wrong. Then re enter style creator and repeat the process several times. And I found sometimes no matter how long you spend it never comes out good, especially if the song has a lot of complex chords. It’s a long time now since I have even attempted this. It’s probably best just to play these phrases live, or keep them very short!
Mike
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There are plenty of riffs and little phrases that are Yamaha made so they sound good and we can copy and paste them in our styles.
Also if we wish we can have up to 32 bars long parts.
Copy something from another style and paste them in phr1 for the first 8 bars.
For the rest 8 bars copy something else in phr2 and paste them from bar 9 to bar 16.
For bar 17-24 use the same pattern of phr1 but change the voice of the organ.
For bar 25-32 use the same pattern from phr2 abut change the voice of the organ.
(Style Creator Assembly Function,Bar Copy-Bar Clear,Edit Menu-> Copy Bars etc)
Another method is to create two or three almost similar styles but with some changes to each part and use them for a specific song.
We move to the parts not only by using the style control but also with the registration buttons.
If we want to play just a couple of parts for a song we can still buy something from the psr E series and save money.
Telling that Yamaha style parts are too simplified well, we seem to have paid for a lot of functions we don't use or don't want to learn how to use them.
I am still waitting to see a Genos owner that can take the ready made drum patterns from a DAW and use them as audio drum parts in a style to see how "real" drums sound on a Genos.
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Hi Panos and Drake :
I am very interested in adding, copying and pasting riffs and phrases in existing Yamaha styles. 👍
I have never done that before.
Completely new to me though.
Are there video's available how to proceed ?
If so, where can I find them ?
Thank you for your help !
Best wishes, Babette
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The official tutorial from Yamaha about the Assembly function:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgGatUmhVqw&t=104s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgGatUmhVqw&t=104s)
One of our members started a Genos tutorial series.You could ask him to do some tutorials about more "simple" functions too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogTaq1jimOw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogTaq1jimOw)
The menus of Genos may be a lot nicer than in our Tyros,Psr S,A3000,CVP but the big majority and the most important functions are in our keyboards too.
As for the non existing midi to style function in Yamaha keyboards we can use the midi2style program of Jørgen Sørensen
http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/software/midi2style/index.htm (http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/software/midi2style/index.htm)
In the case a part doesn't sound correctly in some chords we don't use it and just replace it with something else.
And the last thing we can learn if someone wants to go far more deeper into style creation by reccording some parts by himself as Drake did, is to see what Yamaha is doing.
For example:
How Yamaha created a guitar riff?
Which notes they used? Which parameters it has in high notes,low notes etc and make that riff sound good in all chords?
Of course I don't recommend you to learn style creation from scratch.
But as long as we have chosen to play the keyboard and not a piano, we should learn to do some stuff by ourselves (the assembly function is not that hard) and don't expect from an engineer to know how a style should sound for a song he never heard or for a room he never visited or to come to check our ears if we can hear all the frequencies equally or not.
We keep asking for more and more functions while we don't use the existing ones.
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We keep asking for more and more functions while we don't use the existing ones.
I agree 100 percent. I have been constantly amazed at the number of individuals that utilize less than 10 percent of the keyboard's features, yet those same individuals continue to ask for more and more functions - functions they likely will rarely, or never use.
Gary 8)
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Many thanks for your great help, Panos !👍
Babette
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No Bachus, it's not that! I disagree one more time and I tell you why!
Most of factory styles (Yamaha or Korg) meet only 8 channels (Yamaha) and only one CV on Korg, all 8, on both Y and K. Why does Korg seems more live but Yamaha don't? Yamaha uses a lot of DSPs as Hall, Delay, etc. These types of DSPs will rich frequency range, and in some cases it will do a lot of trouble instead of a good sound. This rich DSP sound is more like a studio sound, not a live band sound. Did you made any test with a spectral view of a song played with DSP active and with DSP inactive, to see the differences? (DSP - Hall, Delay.. not distortion, or compression, to be clear)
K uses its sound board on the main out with almost 10-20dB boost. It's a huge boost, but this gives the power in K sound.
Personally, I have eliminate entire the hall on drums or any other instrument that is part of beat. Brasses or pianos, or other instruments I write on PHR channels and PAD, I give them 10-20 units of custom hall DSP, edited on frequency, to meet only high frequency, because if it gives me hall on low frequency, will alter in the bad way the sound.
We do in almost every time our gigs in large rooms, restaurants or large ballrooms, with 200-300 peoples. In most of the cases the rooms already have a bit of hall in, or a delay on high notes, or a very bad acoustic for low frequencies. If I use DSP hall over room's hall, the people in that room will not hear clearly what I sing and the entire sound quality is a disaster.
Did you hear a live band? How many bands did you hear using DSPs on beat instruments (drums, bass, accompaniment guitars, etc) ? Yes, indeed, is good in small rooms, but will not give you sensation of a live band. If you close the eyes and hear the sound you will bet to a CD playing, not a real player! That's the sensation!
Regards
Vali
Its not just DSP...
But yes, Yamaha uses more DSP..
And yes, on the Yamaha as you indicate the the dsp is more a natural part of the sound
But then... on Yamaha you can switch dsp off..
While Korg does not have the same levels of DSP as the Yamaha
So the pa4x does not have the same potential..
Genos is a DSP powerhouse which adds much of the verstallity and is responsible for much of the sound we on Yamaha arrangers love so much. Yamaha is the king of DSP power as well as quallity where it comes to hardware solutions. Its the reason their mixers are so much praised.
Now really, i think your knowledge is admirable
But you seem to forget the simple thing that its much easier to remove something to get the results you want, then to add something... wether its dsp, mute some tracks.. and thats the power of Yamaha.. there often is to much.. but its easier to addapt to get less..
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Hi Bachus,
Maybe giggers are dealing with other problems you are not familiar with since you are not a gigger, am I right ?
BTW, neither am I. Not my cup of tea : stage fright.
As far as I know you are a " home musician " or am I wrong ?
In the earlier days I was playing in a band but that is a complete other experience.
Nowadays I am only working in my small private home studio. Alone.
A place where I feel good, where I can do what I want.
Making a lot of mistakes is allowed there. Nobody is complaining.😉
These giggers can teach me lot about sound quality of in- and outdoor performances.
Each situation and place is different and a perfect sound check is not always so easy to do if the performer is a OMB.
Playing music in front of an audience is a complete different world and absolutely not a piece of cake, IMHO.
Most pro giggers are paid and mistakes are NEVER allowed.
Gigging is their income ... do not forget !
Giggers are expected to entertain and to please their audience.
WOW ... not so easy, right ?
Cheers, Babette
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...
We keep asking for more and more functions while we don't use the existing ones.
Hi panos.
I'm not agree with this! If someone does not use some functions because didn't know they are present in keyboard's software, or they didn't read manual to know what certain function does, it does not means someone else doesn't use them. And if they are people who needs extra functions, let us keep asking ;) I bet it will be more easy to work with your keyboards if Yamaha will implement functions that only some advanced users use them right now, by PC Software.
All the best,
Vali
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Hello to everyone,
I'm one live time owner of Yamaha, last PSR S970 from 2 years ago.
One year ago I bought also PA 1000 to see how it is.
If you go to the store and test both regarding the sound, what do you hear, you never choose Korg.
If you go to home to play on headphone, internal speakers or small speakers you never choose Korg.
If you need international styles without custom voices, this site and resources are amazing.
On another hand, all the gigs where I was or I was present, with both brands on stage, Korg was used for all except the international styles. On this corner of world, from 12 hours of party it is around of one hour of international music.
I usually like to do things, voices or styles for myself or friends; I never touch the computer for Korg except to copy something to stick. I don't need from any kind computer program, everything inside of the arranger.
If 100 peoples make 100 new voices on Yamaha community with YEM and CPF never will be for all, this means less resources less creativity more money to spend for your needs.
One traditional pack here can be max. 800€. Happiness.
Korg must to thank Yamaha for the presence and Yamaha community for all these nice international styles.
Yamaha community must to thank Korg (to don’t have <KEM>) for all the voices and styles which were exported to improve Yamaha resource. Here best Yamaha packs makers choose this way on his work.
Of course this is my personal opinion and is true in my country.
Best keyboards ever: Yamorg or Komaha
All my best regards
Mihai
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Hi Mihai,
Thank you for your interesting input.
Are you using your Korg PA1000 for live performances ?
If so, are you and your audience pleased with the sound quality ?
Your comments would be very much appreciated.
Babette
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Hi Bachus,
Maybe giggers are dealing with other problems you are not familiar with since you are not a gigger, am I right ?
BTW, neither am I. Not my cup of tea : stage fright.
As far as I know you are a " home musician " or am I wrong ?
In the earlier days I was playing in a band but that is a complete other experience.
Nowadays I am only working in my small private home studio. Alone.
A place where I feel good, where I can do what I want.
Making a lot of mistakes is allowed there. Nobody is complaining.😉
These giggers can teach me lot about sound quality of in- and outdoor performances.
Each situation and place is different and a perfect sound check is not always so easy to do if the performer is a OMB.
Playing music in front of an audience is a complete different world and absolutely not a piece of cake, IMHO.
Most pro giggers are paid and mistakes are NEVER allowed.
Gigging is their income ... do not forget !
Giggers are expected to entertain and to please their audience.
WOW ... not so easy, right ?
Cheers, Babette
So yes,
But what are you trying to tell me?
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Bachus,
In this message I have trIed to tell/explain there is a huge difference ( night and day ) between a commercial live performance ( in- and/or outdoor, in front of an audience ) and playing ( alone ) at home where the sound situation is perfect without the presence of a critical audience and where mistakes are allowed and always can/will be corrected and/or repaired easily.
Babette
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Babette, your assessment is absolutely spot on. I have been performing in front of audiences since age 17 and I can assure anyone that it is a totally different approach than playing at home or in a home studio.
Not only must you be a great musician, but you must also be a great entertainer. Additionally, you must be able to sing, on key and with perfect timing.
There are no second chances. If you screw up, everyone notices, at least this is true for the majority of our audiences. I was on stage until age 76 and I was always asked to return. There is a lot of pressure on the OMB entertainer to do it right every time they perform, and never miss a beat or word in a song. At home, you can redo anything you wish, and there is no one there to throw rotted fruit at you, ;)
All the best,
Gary 8)
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Babette
There isnt such a huge difference. When I was playing gigs I didn’t actually play any differently than when I was playing at home, with the exception that you don’t usually experiment on stage in front of an audience.
What is coming out here is that different things are important to different people. And not always for logical reasons. I would say that most really experienced performers know deep down that if you don’t perform very well, small differences in sound quality will not matter a ****, and are pretty subjective anyway. And that within acceptable norms, if you do perform well, nobody will notice.
Mike
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Yes Mike I was the same. What you saw was what you got at home or gigs. I did do more preparation in the way of setting up my set list in the order asked for and selecting styles and registrations before hand. I don't sing so I had to make sure everything sounded good in the performance.
At home I will just pick a style and then start playing songs that suit the style I have chosen. This is great fun and very relaxing. I do record the occasional song for posting on my forum and also prefer listening to Instrumental performances rather than Vocal. I like to hear how different people interpret
the same songs.
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Hi Mike,
For a lot of reasons ( I already explained earlier ), I have a lot of respect and admiration for pro giggers ( OMB ).
Pro giggers ( in my perception ) are pro musicians.
They are excellent keyboard players, pro singers, great entertainers and last but not least " entrepreneurs " without personnel who have to earn their daily income by making music only.
Not an easy life, I guess :
high costs, hard work and almost no family life.
IMHO 90% ( or maybe more ) of this forum members are home players ( hobbyists ) and approx. 10% are pro musicians. Am I right ?
Babette
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I have found a hen's tooth. My local Guitar Center has a Korg Pa700 on the floor! This is the first time that I have found a demo Korg in the Boston area -- ever!
I don't want to provoke a Korg vs. Yamaha discussion. After trying some voices and styles, I hear and respect why some musicians prefer Korg. Vive la difference! Having been spoiled by Genos, I'm quite happy with my Genos. I did like Korg's Hammond B3 and even folks on the Yamaha Synth forum would agree that Yamaha needs to strengthen drawbar organ and rotary speaker emulation.
I didn't have time to try and evaluate workflow, etc. Maybe some other time. I have too much going on in real life, right now.
All the best -- pj
P.S. I like the Wurlitzer EP, too. It totally nails "What'd I Say".
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Babette, I would think, from my experience on this forum, that only about 2 percent of the players are pro performers and performing on stage as entertainers for a full time living. And, I could probably name them all. Sure, there were also some weekend performers as well, but those individuals had full time employment in fields other than music.
As a full-time, professional, musician/entertainer/vocalist you need to also be a bookkeeper, advertising agent, tax accountant, costume designer, public relations manager, transportation agent, accountant, salesperson, etc... On top of this, you had to find time to be a parent, spouse, caretaker when your spouse was ill, mow the lawn, take care of the gardens, make household repairs, and if you will lucky, find a few hours a night to sleep.
When a big job was coming up the next day, I often found sleep was nearly impossible, often lying awake in bed thinking of every aspect of the job and what songs I was going to perform in front of 1,000 people that I had never encountered in the past and had no idea of their musical likes or dislikes. Fortunately, I have always been able to read a crowd within a few minutes and get things going without a hitch. This, for many, is a very daunting aspect of being on stage. In order to cope with this, many musicians take to drugs and alcohol, which killed many of the best performers.
Now, Mike is correct that small differences in sound will not be noticed by most audience members, and for this I was always grateful. However, those sound differences were often masked by the overall sound quality of our PA systems used in the past, which were frequently distorted at higher volumes. When performers switched to vertical array systems such as Bose L1 PAS and L1 Compact systems, the clarity was such that everyone could hear every note and word perfectly, and the coverage was so much improved that everyone in the entire venue was quite aware when you made even a minor mistake. My wife was the first to notice this when I first purchased the Bose PAS system and she was in the audience of a noisy nite club. At the end of a performance she said, "Wow - you hit a couple sour notes when you performed the high notes of New York, New York." I'm sure she was not the only person in that audience that heard this. I had made a mistake when I started the song and played it in a key that was at the very top end of my vocal range.
Good topic, everyone,
Gary 8)
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It depends on the venue and the audience as to how discerning they are.
I've found that if you get the "hook" right and most of the words, most people are satisfied.
In a concert situation, the audience may be more knowledgeable and know all the words, and actually be listening very closely.
I've done four to six nights a week for the past 45 years. A lot of it has been in the same venue, in the club room at a high-end dining establishment. Sometimes you do a song perfectly; sometimes you have to "fake" a request and, as mentioned, do enough of it right for them to recognize. Most don't listen that closely as they are eating, talking and texting. :)
The real task for me is to keep things fresh. I have lots of repeat customers and have to know which songs are their favorites, yet try not to get in a rut and do the same songs the same way over and over.
I suppose that is one reason I change arrangers a lot. I currently have one of every brand; Korg, Roland, Ketron and Yamaha. For me the Korg fits best in most occasions, but all are fantastic these days.
This week, in addition to my regular nights, I have an outdoor pool party Sunday and a private function in the main dining room where I work on Monday, a night where the place is usually closed. I have at least two of everything, so will be able to leave all my regular gear in place tonight and still be able to handle the other two jobs.
These days I very seldom play or practice at home. If I want to learn a new song, I'll listen to it several times, write down the chords and lyrics and save it all to my lyrics folder, or to Songbook or Registration as it may me.
I often experiment with these on the job, but after everyone has left. When I'm comfortable with it I add it to the "regular" list.
Sometimes it's nece$$ary to do a request I don't know very well. I can Google the lyrics and chords and do most songs, IF I'm familiar with the melody.
It's a very interesting way to make a living!
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I have found a hen's tooth. My local Guitar Center has a Korg Pa700 on the floor! This is the first time that I have found a demo Korg in the Boston area -- ever!
I don't want to provoke a Korg vs. Yamaha discussion. After trying some voices and styles, I hear and respect why some musicians prefer Korg. Vive la difference! Having been spoiled by Genos, I'm quite happy with my Genos. I did like Korg's Hammond B3 and even folks on the Yamaha Synth forum would agree that Yamaha needs to strengthen drawbar organ and rotary speaker emulation.
I didn't have time to try and evaluate workflow, etc. Maybe some other time. I have too much going on in real life, right now.
All the best -- pj
Hi PJ,
Maybe in a few months time you’ll get this demo PA700 on sale at a bargain price... might be fun to try out this board at the side of the Genos...
Regards,
Vinciane
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Hi Gary :
Very interesting how you describe how the daily life of a pro gigger looks like.
I think you are right that only 2% of this group are pro's.
For me real pro's are those giggers who have only one source ( making music ) of income like our friend Abby e.g.
Like most other pro musicians ( drummers, guitar players etc. ) giggers have no personnel.
They all have their own business but they are always alone ... a vulnerable and risky work situation, I guess.
I understand some giggers have made agreements with other giggers to help each other out in case of emergency
( sickness e.g. ) to avoid customers are running away.
All by all a very special profession.
Best regards, Babette
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I've found that if you get the "hook" right and most of the words, most people are satisfied.
Very down to earth statement don .LOL .. But only true if you already do the basics well - like pick suitable songs, sing in tune and play competently - as you and Gary definitely do :D
I'll bet that no one has ever told either of you the performance sucks because you overused the DSPs or because the styles are not well written, or because you need to tweak the equalizer. Unless it is amazingly bad, this is the stuff that only the player might notice, and even then more down to personal preference than good or bad.
Mike
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Hi Don :
Thank you for your reply.
Nice to share your gigging experiences.👍
Babette
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Very down to earth statement don .LOL .. But only true if you already do the basics well - like pick suitable songs, sing in tune and play competently - as you and Gary definitely do :D
I'll bet that no one has ever told either of you the performance sucks because you overused the DSPs or because the styles are not well written, or because you need to tweak the equalizer. Unless it is amazingly bad, this is the stuff that only the player might notice, and even then more down to personal preference than good or bad.
Mike
Amen! Most of the comments that I get from people is when the music moves them emotionally. They could care less about the actual technology.
-- pj
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I have found a hen's tooth. My local Guitar Center has a Korg Pa700 on the floor! This is the first time that I have found a demo Korg in the Boston area -- ever!
I don't want to provoke a Korg vs. Yamaha discussion. After trying some voices and styles, I hear and respect why some musicians prefer Korg. Vive la difference! Having been spoiled by Genos, I'm quite happy with my Genos. I did like Korg's Hammond B3 and even folks on the Yamaha Synth forum would agree that Yamaha needs to strengthen drawbar organ and rotary speaker emulation.
I didn't have time to try and evaluate workflow, etc. Maybe some other time. I have too much going on in real life, right now.
All the best -- pj
P.S. I like the Wurlitzer EP, too. It totally nails "What'd I Say".
I bought the PA1000 last year and use it for impromptu jam sessions as it has a 60w/ channel amp and speakers. Sounds pretty good too but of course the keyboard doesn't compare to the Genos.
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Very down to earth statement don .LOL .. But only true if you already do the basics well - like pick suitable songs, sing in tune and play competently - as you and Gary definitely do :D
I'll bet that no one has ever told either of you the performance sucks because you overused the DSPs or because the styles are not well written, or because you need to tweak the equalizer. Unless it is amazingly bad, this is the stuff that only the player might notice, and even then more down to personal preference than good or bad.
Mike
Thank you Mike. You are one of the few on this forum who have actually seen me play and croak in person. :)
When you comin' back?
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Hi Don
I would love to come back and see you, but since I retired I have not been back to your area. Its quite a treck from Houston, but you never know.
I spend almost half the year outside the country now, and am in Scotland at the moment, until end September. Of course if you are ever in the Houston area during the winter months you must come and see me, we can play a little golf.
Mike
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Hi Kaarlo,
.....I would like to know why you finally have decided to buy a Genos ?
.....Do you regret this decision ?
.....What are your plans for the near future ?
......Is it your intention to sell your Genos and replace it ?
Dear Babette,
had a gig yesterday. I enclose a photo from the Tapiola Golf Club to avoid being told I do not have a Genos and that my playing is so bad I am incompetent to evaluate the best keyboard ever created ;) .
1
The reasons I finally bought the Genos were very present: weight and size :) Mi wife 79 and myself 84 were able to put the Genos leftt to right against the collapsed rear seat of my Range Rover (My T 5 could not be loaded that way)
The sound was (for me) excellent as on T5, the drums IMHO better.
2
Also the things I strongly dislike were very present. [/color]
Even with the shield you can see in the photo for me it was very difficult to see the display due to being outside on a bright day. (No direct sun on the screen) But I have been told "stop complaining, only a fraction of of giggers play outside" So I must be the great exception as I have for decades in summertime had many outdoors gigs.
3
The unfortunate black color made the pollen in the air at this time of the year very visible, it also made the temperature of the case go to 38 C. The metal finish T 5 never did that. Before someone asks how I know let me just point out I have a pro infrared instant measurement device just as I have a pro dB meter. (Expensive items, not purchased for Genos but for my military remote controlled target projects)
4
As always there were errors in the registration banks. The display shows what you programmed under each button, the Genos feels entitled to disregard what you see on its screen. I posted a lot about that but gave up as I was declared incompetent to critisize Genos.
5
I have no plans for the future. I will continue to gig with the Genos as long as people are willing to pay 500 € to our president's childrens relief fund for hearing me sing and play. The reasonalbe assumption is it might soon all be over.
6
Even if the competition came out with a perfect replacement for the Genos I doubt I would want to learn a different system, and I beleive that is the case even with younger buyers of the Genos. And that is the reason why manufacturers can treat us the way they do, use us as guinea pigs with OS versions that do not function (Genos 1.1), leave our mails unanswered - of course I am the only one ;) that has that experience - and once they got our money leave us out in the cold.
Cheers
Kaarlo
(http://)
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Hello Kaarlo :
Thank you for your reply.
I want to present my deepest respect for your volunteer work. Wonderful and very noble !
I feel very sorry and sad to hear you are not happy with your present arranger keyboard.
Hopefully the next update ( June 28, 2019 ) will bring you the answer you are looking for ?
I am afraid it will never solve all your problems and frustrations though. :'(
I understand you prefer to stay with Yamaha since you are used to Yamaha's system but why not go for another arranger if you are absolutely not pleased ?
You are a free man, it is your money and your life.
Nobody will blame you if you should decide to sell your present arranger keyboard and buy the one you like that offers you the features you want.
" The Yamaha system " is not so important.
The joy of playing an instrument must bring you a lot of fun and the happiness you deserve at your age, IMHO.
Take care !
Best regards, Babette
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Bachus,
In this message I have trIed to tell/explain there is a huge difference ( night and day ) between a commercial live performance ( in- and/or outdoor, in front of an audience ) and playing ( alone ) at home where the sound situation is perfect without the presence of a critical audience and where mistakes are allowed and always can/will be corrected and/or repaired easily.
Babette
Lets reread your orriginal question...
For the time being it looks like the Genos has only one competitor : the Korg PA4X.
A Korg PA5X is not expected soon after Korg have presented the PA4X update recently.
Wersi and Ketron seem not to be very active to introduce new arranger keyboards soon.
Is it their intention to launch new highend arrangers during the Musikmesse 2019 ?
Babette
So one needs to be a gigging musician to have an opinion on that question?
I think music making is all about what your ears tell you
And having owned both a pa4x and a Genos(one of the few here) i dare consider myself an expert on the differences between them.. its up to you, to weight my opinion.. i can’t do that for you...
But asking non giggers not to answer a question or have an opinion on your orriginal question...thats a bit narrowminded, don’t you agree?
And yes differen’t players, different needs, thats clear to... different situation different needs, is also clear... but when having a discusion about styles and the differences between the brands... i don’t see how one needs to be a pro musician to have an opinion on that...
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Hi Bachus,
Thank you for your reply but I feel sorry to inform you I am not capable to answer your questions, remarks and/or comments. 😨
I am just a simple home player and love to learn a lot here ...
I am not an expert.
Babette
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Be nice, Bachus. From what I have read, Babette is not saying that non-pro gigging musicians cannot answer the questions - but instead, she is merely stating her opinion, which she has every right to state. Calling someone narrow-minded is insulting and will not be tolerated on this forum. There is no such thing as an expert - just people that claim to be experts. Granted, some have a bit more expertise than others in some fields of endeavor, but no one has all the answers - not even Yamaha, Korg, etc...
All the best,
Gary 8)
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Be nice, Bachus. From what I have read, Babette is not saying that non-pro gigging musicians cannot answer the questions - but instead, she is merely stating her opinion, which she has every right to state. Calling someone narrow-minded is insulting and will not be tolerated on this forum. There is no such thing as an expert - just people that claim to be experts. Granted, some have a bit more expertise than others in some fields of endeavor, but no one has all the answers - not even Yamaha, Korg, etc...
All the best,
Gary 8)
Sorry there...
But i am not saying she is narrow minded...
Just that a remark she made comes a cross a “bit” narrowminded..
Thats a world of difference where i come from..
One is an insult..
The other is part of open and honest modern communication..
But if there is an appology in place..
I will certainly appologize as i never meant to insult her.
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Back on topic...
The Genos is a near perfect arranger for me, nothing else comes close..
While it still lacks as a workstation... thats where Korg is clearly ahead..
If that makes sense to anyone?
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Apologies accepted, Bachus.🌟
Babette
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I agree about Genos Bachus, I am looking forward to the new update though as I think it will make some operations much easier.
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I couldn't hold myself and bought a Pa4X ....
Prices are going down in the US and I got a 76 key, new, for $2800.
Before I continue and before the good people on this forum start bashing me I will state immanently - I'm keeping my Genos too 8)
I have it for a week and here are the few things I notices Immediately.
Since this tread has over 70 replies and it is sometimes going sideways, I'm starting a new tread so folks can see focus on the differences between Genos and its biggest US challenger.
Cheers
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No one is going to bash you for purchasing a brand other than Yamaha.
Good luck,
Gary 8)
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I agree about Genos Bachus, I am looking forward to the new update though as I think it will make some operations much easier.
A BIG word you said here, Eileen :)
That's what we look for when we all make/sing music, especially on gigs :D
Best regards,
Vali
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No one is going to bash you for purchasing a brand other than Yamaha.
Good luck,
Gary 8)
Gary, you know I highly respect you which is why I always read your posts. Maybe Yinon is not going to be bashed, but might earn the honoray title of "Clown" ;) I found out the hard way what is actually clearly stated, on this site: you should not write a competing keyboard is better than any YAMAHA model. This is a YAMAHA site. I never did compare as I did not have a non-YAMAHA keyboard, I only compared Genos with T 5 and as a standard answer got "Genos" is a completely different animal" which was not very helpful. I have stopped writing about IMHO severe problems with my Genos as it seems posters know I am the only one that has them; Let me stress that I have recieved valauble "how to get around" inherent not so good implementations which hopefully are being fixed in 1.4. But to be honest, I still carry a residual grudge for having been told, Genos was faultless at 1.1. I had never been on a forum before and did not understand the "right or wrong my country" principle was applied.
Cheers
Kaarlo
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Hello Kaarlo :
" The Yamaha system " is not so important.
Best regards, Babette
Babette
I own a Yamaha Genos keyboard and I understand what Kaarlo is stating when he says that moving to another keyboard (ie. Korg) and learning a new non-Yamaha system seems to be a challenging task. I am in the same situation.
I am not trying to put words in Kaarlo's mouth, just saying that i understand and relate to his statement.
I believe Kaarlo stated that he gigs for public. When you do that and have hundreds of songs/registrations already set up in your keyboard (in this case Genos) it is very challenging moving to another keyboard. In some cases even from Yamaha to Yamaha.
Because you already have everything setup and ready to go for your gigs. In my case, in addition to hundreds of registrations already setup, I also have hundreds of PDF's already linked from iPad to Genos. Some people have external multipads, midis, voices, etc. In some cases people have additional hardware already working with the current keyboard.
This means you already have a system setup and when you perform a song, you bring everything up very very quickly: PDF, registrations, key, tempo, style, volume, VH, etc. in a matter of seconds you are ready to perform from one song to another. At home this is not that important, but when gigging in public This is critical.
Moving all of that setup system and linking it to another keyboard say Korg (or sometimes even another Yamaha keyboard) can be a tremendous amount of time and effort and in some cases bottom line money. You have to do all of this moving effort and more importantly TEST all of it and everything, every little piece of your system before you can go public with another keyboard.
So, i understand the statement feels like you are tied to a given system and In a way that is the case. (for some of us anyway)
When i moved from T5 to Genos it was somewhat easier because it is the same family but still had to do a lot of work. I can just imagine moving to another brand.
I know you meant well and was actually trying to encourage Kaarlo . . .. . . So, I am not debating or disqualifying just trying to explain why sometimes it is not so easy to move to another system or keyboard/brand.
I think Korg is an excellent keyboard in some areas better than Yamaha. In some other areas Yamaha is better.
I have thought about buying a Korg many times. Personally i like Korg a lot and specially their Latin styles which i play quite a bit. I actually have lots of Korg styles on my Genos they are superb. But when I realize all the work involved in migrating to Korg I just keep on the Yamaha 'system'. I am not loyal to a brand, but to a performance system.
On the other hand, for some people might be easier or just about the same playing one brand keyboard or another brand because they do not rely on a setup system. They rely solely on their playing skills. Skills so high that can easily transfer from one keyboard to another no matter what the brand. I admire that.
So, i guess is all in what each person relies on.
Thanks and have a great day.
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Hi Al Ram :
You are absolutely right.
Probably my conclusion came too fast.
Sorry ! 😧
Best regards, Babette
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Kaarlo, the person that posted that about you was reprimanded for his post, and if I recall, the same person was later banned. The moderators on this site do not and will not tolerate that kind of bashing of other members. This is probably why this site is among the top Yamaha arranger keyboard sites on the entire internet.
PS: I have a white tuxedo that I wore for many formal parties I performed during the hot summer months. Guess I was one of those clowns in a white suit also. ;)
All the best,
Gary 8)