PSR Tutorial Forum
Genos (12 Boards) => Genos - General => Topic started by: Kaarlo von Freymann on May 06, 2018, 07:06:45 AM
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Hi Everybody,
It is claimed we Scandinavians are an irreverent bunch. A few of you you may have heard of the Danish fairy tale "The
Emperor's New Clothes", some may have seen in the news how the Finnish female president straightened president Bush's tie.
(She was rightly heavily criticized for that) So please forgive me for attaching two audio files for your consideration as hearing is
believing. Any comments are highly appreciated.
Cheers
Kaarlo
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Sorry,
only one attachment arrived at its destination, here hopefully comes the second.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Hello
I played this very difficult and interesting game.
I agree that difference is very difficult to hear, but the player is very good and it would be perhaps easier to hear differences with a slowler score.
Nevertheless, my guess :
Genos starts until 00 mn :52 s
Then Tyros until :1 mn : 04 s
Then Genos until 1 mn : 29 s
Then Tyros until 1 mn : 43 s
Then Genos
What I called "Genos sound" seems to me a little more metallic, bright with a better bass and natural reverb.
Perhaps I'm totally wrong, and all the score is played by Genos, or all is played by Tyros .... Nevermind, if I'm ridiculous :-)
Soundphase
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Hi Kaarlo
The differences can also be how they are recorded.
How did you get such a quality clear high end or louder recording at such a low volume which I listened to on my Internet computer. Also that is only a realtec card inside . I use Focusrite Scarlet on my main music one. I maintain as they say, If It sounds good on a cheap system you are there on a great system
This is something I have been striving for. Even limiting and compressing the **** out of a lemon has not worked.
The Genos Is much more sharper than the Tyros , but that does not mean to say warmer.
The Genos needs more tweaking In my view and can reach a higher quality if worked on.
That is all down to getting used to this Instrument
I would like to know how you got such a high level recording and mp3 at that.
This is what I want to achieve . Also nice resonating piano.
You must have a good Argon Accumulator. ;D
All the best
John :) :)
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I hear differences in the harmonics , but it is also a real stacato song .
If you for example a balad song with long holds and release the difference wil be more clear .
there are so many ways to fine tune the sounds on the Genos and Tyros that it comes very close to each other , but there is a real difference out of the box .
many players plays "out of the box' and some are tweaking a lot , but the Genos has a lot more improvements than only the Cfx piano's
Soryt :)
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Hi Karloo,
Nice performance but what is the point of comparing the Genos and the Tyros 5 only as far as the piano sound is concerned? If you play mostly piano, a Clavinova or any decent digital piano will be better for piano playing stricto sensu anyway.
What would be more interesting, comparison wise, would be to play the same song with the same styles and the same voices, at the same tempo, with a fully-fledged arrangement, and let people guess whether version A or version B was played on the Tyros 5 or the Genos, or which parts of the same recording, like you did here for A Train.
After all, when you buy an arranger keyboard, you buy it for its great sounding sounds and rhythms, not just for the piano sound, don’t you? So the question really is: which keyboard is better for arranging tunes: the Tyros 5 or the Genos?
Just my two cents,
Best Regards,
Vinciane
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Hi Kaarlo
1 The differences can also be how they are recorded.
2 How did you get such a quality clear high end or louder recording at such a low volume which I listened to on my Internet computer.
2 The Genos Is much more sharper than the Tyros , but that does not mean to say warmer.
3 The Genos needs more tweaking In my view and can reach a higher quality if worked on.
4 That is all down to getting used to this Instrument
5 I would like to know how you got such a high level recording and mp3 at that.
This is what I want to achieve . Also nice resonating piano.
6 You must have a good Argon Accumulator. ;D
All the best
John :) :)
Thanks for your very good points.
1
Yes, how you record does affect the sound. We used the best we had available, digital all the way. And as a fact converting the recorded digital WAV to digital MP3 on the PC using NCH audio editing software did destroy the slight difference we were able to hear on WAV. We did not want to do the original recording in MP3 as we were afraid it would so what it did, blur the difference. As a fact to me MP3 is a no no. All my demo CDs I send to people contemplating to give me a gig are WAV.
With sound it is like with wine tester terminology, hard to find really good words. We felt the Genos was a little "arier", would say like the difference in your bedroom when you wake up and then open the window for a minute. But our main point was to show, any difference in sound quality is so minimal that in a performance situation it will not be discernible.
In this case it was just a comparison switching while playing from using one sound= voice file installed on the Genos, SFX piano to another installed on the Genos voice file, the Tyros Grand Piano.
2
The recording was done from the digital output of the Genos. As with digital outputs in general, output it is not affected by output potentiometer position. It is (surprisigly) ok to use any high quality RCA cable to the Tascam digital recorder SS CD R 1 which fortunately as it is intended for studio use unlike many digital recorders does provide a "digital in volume" adjustment in addition to a "digital out" volume adjustment. The level from the Genos was at something like - 20 dB so the Tascam was adjusted to a higher input level in order not to have to process the result recorded to the card.
3
It is true you can tweak sounds, treble and bass, effects etc. In this case nothing was done because I believe keyboards should give their best without tweaking, that's the manufactures duty. And once you start doing that in a comparison you break the rules governing testing procedures. I was some 30 years ago involved in consumer goods testing and just as an example, if you test washing machine noise level you must make sure everything else is equal, filling degree, filling material location etc.
4
Very good point, I am used to the Steinway grand (1922 model ) I inherited. And as Steinway says, not one Steinway sounds exactly like the others. And typically I feel mine has the best sound as I have heard it consciously for nearly 8 decades.
6
You overestimate my knowledge, I do not have the sligtest idea of what a Argon Accumulator is. I only know Argon is a non reactive gas.
I am vary happy you made your post, I have made quite a few that did attract up to 150 readers but nobody felt they were worth or possible to reply to. Maybe because they were about less wonderful procedures when using the Genos like changing just one instrument in a midi file needing 17 steps.
Cheers
Kaarlo
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I really do not see the point of all these comparisons of one keyboard to another. You buy what you consider is best for you. Genos is the best arranger keyboard to be released so far. It is easier to use and quicker in many cases.
To me this is the best way to hear the voices.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=828Zv3wcvrg
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Hi Karloo,
Nice performance but what is the point of comparing the Genos and the Tyros 5 only as far as the piano sound is concerned? If you play mostly piano, a Clavinova or any decent digital piano will be better for piano playing stricto sensu anyway.
What would be more interesting, comparison wise, would be to play the same song with the same styles and the same voices, at the same tempo, with a fully-fledged arrangement, and let people guess whether version A or version B was played on the Tyros 5 or the Genos, or which parts of the same recording, like you did here for A Train.
After all, when you buy an arranger keyboard, you buy it for its great sounding sounds and rhythms, not just for the piano sound, don’t you? So the question really is: which keyboard is better for arranging tunes: the Tyros 5 or the Genos?
Just my two cents,
Best Regards,
Vinciane
Thank you very much Vinciane, not two cents but very relevant. You are 100 % right. I intend to do that when I finally master the 17 steps needed to tweak a midi file in Genos. All the files I have are tweaked for Tyros and they do not sound good on Genos. Why a midi file ? Because only then you can employ all the different instruments and make a perfect song like all manufacturers do their demo-songs to really see what the instrument is capable of. I am not able to do a lot of button pushing when playing to styles and then the number of voices presented is definitely very limited.
Cheers
Kaarlo
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A true comparison can only be done fairly by sitting and playing Tyros 5 and then Genos recorded into the Audio recorder and then listening to the recording from that. It will give a truer picture than using a midi file.
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The recording was done from the digital output of the Genos. As with digital outputs in general, output it is not affected by output potentiometer position.
Just for information, page 145 of the Genos Reference Manual says that the output volume level from the [DIGITAL OUT] jack can be adjusted by the 'Digital Out Level' setting on the 'Speaker/Connectivity' page of the 'Utility' menu.
Press [MENU] > touch 'Menu 2' > 'Utility' > 'Speaker/Connectivity' > 'Digital Out Level'
Regards
Ian
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I have read in posts that earlier models have more "sweet" preset voices than the next models.
That means to me that they were many more effects involved in preset voices than it is now.
Someone may like this,but someone may not.
I think is easier (at least to me) to add effects to a voice that is kind of flat,
than trying to find out in first place,which effects are present there to disable them
and then add the effects as YOU like (and not to the liking of the engineer's ears).
When a sound is called "sweet trumpet" or "sweet soprano sax",ok I can accept the "sweetness" and the "smoothness" of that sound.
But if you do this to all sounds, does it really work no matter what genre of music are you playing,what style, in which tempo,whith which voice will you assembly that sound, etc.?
If we are looking for a great piano sound on a Genos or a Tyros I believe we are looking at the wrong place as Vinciane said.
What about the rest 1651 voices,the 58 drumkits,the 358 dsp's effect,550 reworked styles,the 458 multipads etc, of Genos?
They mean nothing after all?
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I really do not see the point of all these comparisons of one keyboard to another. You buy what you consider is best for you. Genos is the best arranger keyboard to be released so far. It is easier to use and quicker in many cases.
To me this is the best way to hear the voices.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=828Zv3wcvrg
Hi Eileen,
Thanks for posting about this. I have several times posted questions read by many but left without any answer.
Honestly, I expected some on the site to say "I really do not see the point of all these comparisons of one keyboard to another."
I am afraid you may be right and it may very well be the afternoon my friend and I spent making the recording was time spent in vain. The result just confirmed that my hearing is not as bad as it very well might be. The deteriorated hearing of us old people has been a valid point on this site.
"The point of all these comparisons" is that there are those like Abby and me - and hopefully some others also - who do want to evaluate products by comparing price and features and make a cost/benefit analysis, an attitude manufacturers and anyone strongly connected to them - like for instance dealers who carry just one line - of course dislike and try to eradicate by massive hype.
I was on the board of an advertising agency for 30 years so how to make people buy something and all the hidden venues to use for that purpose are not completely unknown to me.
Cheers
Kaarlo
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Hi Kaarlo,
The people I am talking to are buying Genos because they like what they hear and prefer very much a touch screen. On my little forum I must say a lot of my members have gone over to Genos from Tyros 5. They also like that it is lighter to gig with, has in built Expansion Memory thus saving around £300 for having to buy one.
Yes there is a slightly different learning curve but it dose not take long to come to grips with it. One thing I I I know now is that I would not part with mine.
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Come on Guys,
There is no need for the defensive but, but, but, buts, every time a subject like this
or such a test comes along.
It should be viewed for what it is, something educative.
It is also essential to always keep an open mind
Kaarlo and his friend took the time and trouble to make this demo, and I think
we should maybe appreciated that.
We may look upon it as a quiz, a hearing test, or whatever reason we may choose.
If I understood correctly, Kaarlo and his friend recorded a song while alternating
between a Genos piano and a T5 piano.
He is now asking us here to identify which piano has been used in which part of
that song.
That should be simple for those who know, or have played either one of these
instruments at one time or another.
Why don't we keep things simple and say we do know, or we don't know.
After all, the question seemed very reasonable, simple, and straightforward.
Best Regards.
Abby.
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Come on Guys,
There is no need for the defensive but, but, but, buts, every time a subject like this
or such a test comes along.
It should be viewed for what it is, something educative.
It is also essential to always keep an open mind
Kaarlo and his friend took the time and trouble to make this demo, and I think
we should maybe appreciated that.
We may look upon it as a quiz, a hearing test, or whatever reason we may choose.
If I understood correctly, Kaarlo and his friend recorded a song while alternating
between a Genos piano and a T5 piano.
He is now asking us here to identify which piano has been used in which part of
that song.
That should be simple for those who know, or have played either one of these
instruments at one time or another.
Why don't we keep things simple and say we do know, or we don't know.
After all, the question seemed very reasonable, simple, and straightforward.
Best Regards.
Abby.
Yes !! I tried to answer to this quizz, and I would like to know if I won !!! ;D
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Hi
Eileen is right on the button for me.
Also It is how the comparison has been recorded and that can swing an argument.
It can be like going to a music shop and hearing a demo on decent set of speakers and come home and not so good on yours.
I must admit that the mp3 recording is good and that is supposed to be way down on a wave file. Being just a piano there is not much for the compression to squeeze out.
The Genos is way above the Tyros in the way you can manipulate It.
I think most people are frightened going forward, but the forward is the only way to go.
Now , I would also say go AAC for the future or is that another argument!! :o :-X or "oh flac file" :-\ "OGG"!!anybody ::)
All the best
John :)
Ps I think that there could or should be a section for the ultimate mix where all can share their experiences and discussion on how all the effects and compressions and eq's alter a final song and then a lot of people will see how sound comes together. Just a suggestion. Even I am an amateur at mixing.
You can get great recordings out of anything if you know what to do with years of experience but going forward with the latest gear is the best way to go If you dream.
Also like Eileen has said to me " No pockets In Shrouds"!!! 8) :P :P :P :P :P :P :P
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Yes !! I tried to answer to this quizz, and I would like to know if I won !!! ;D
Thanks,
I will post at what points the switch between the voice files were made , just waiting for some more comments and what people hear that I can no more hear.
A beautiful lady - I think her her name was Antoine - wrote it would be better to have a comparison of an orchestrated file, not just piano, which I agree would in deed better reflect the sound qualities of the keyboards compared.
I have deleted the rest of this post as I am afraid I will get reprimanded by the administrators..............
Cheers
Kaarlo
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Hi Kaarlo
I would not worry as we all have our opinions and that is what makes a discussion.
Here'e Johnny!!!! :o :)
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Hi,
I hope I don't offend anybody here ... ;)
But here it goes:
I have read a lot of posts of people asking others to compare keyboards and which is better.
By now all the specs and technical data is available and we discussed the features and sound et nauseum.
I have never relied on other peoples opinion on what to buy.
It seems to me that only we can answer to what our ears tell us and what our needs are.
Some of the discussions are getting tiresome ...
Do or don't. It seems to me that some people don't seem to be happy no matter what.
It's been said before: "nobody forces us to buy anything"
I get it, that we ask for some pointers etc. But at some point we need to do our own homework and ask: Is this really what I want/need?
In the past I have switched brands and skipped a generation or two, because what was out there wasn't for my needs.
I don't think that constant questions about is this better than this or should I buy this will help anybody.
We all have different needs and hear different things. Thank God.
It would be boring otherwise ... ;)
I live by a simple rule: If in doubt; leave it out. And: Don't change a winning game ;)
It really is not rocket science. Some people seem to make things more complicated than they really are.
We are talking about music here and having some fun with it (at least I hope so)
I am with Eileen on this ...
Again: Sorry if I offend anybody
Just some observations ;)
Regards
Eric
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Hello
I played this very difficult and interesting game.
I agree that difference is very difficult to hear, but the player is very good and it would be perhaps easier to hear differences with a slowler score.
Nevertheless, my guess :
Genos starts until 00 mn :52 s
Then Tyros until :1 mn : 04 s
Then Genos until 1 mn : 29 s
Then Tyros until 1 mn : 43 s
Then Genos
What I called "Genos sound" seems to me a little more metallic, bright with a better bass and natural reverb.
Perhaps I'm totally wrong, and all the score is played by Genos, or all is played by Tyros .... Nevermind, if I'm ridiculous :-)
Soundphase
Hello Kaarlo.
I'm afraid you will not get many other people, apart from Soundphase, whom I commend for
his bravery, to stick their neck out and take a guess.
Doing so would involve the risk of getting it wrong, or admitting that one can't tell the
difference, which is a no-no.
It is much easier to just critise the message, or the messenger.
We seem to be twisting ourselves into Pretzels here in order to avoid giving this a try.
I can't seem to tell the difference, but then I've never owned any of these keyboards.
Good luck with your (quiz?) test.
Best Regards.
Abby.
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Hello Kaarlo.
I'm afraid you will not get many other people, apart from Soundphase, whom I commend for
his bravery, to stick their neck out and take a guess.
Doing so would involve the risk if getting it wrong, or admitting that one can't tell the
difference, which is a no-no.
It is much easier to just critise the message, or the messenger.
We seem to be twisting ourselves into Pretzels here in order to avoid giving this a try.
I can't seem to tell the difference, but then I've never owned any of these keyboards.
Good luck with your (quiz?) test.
Best Regards.
Abby.
For me, it doesn’t mean the Genos is not better than the Tyros. I understand that professionals who consider investments, ask questions. For the others that only play for pleasure, like me, and can afford the purchase, there is no question to ask.
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Yes !! I tried to answer to this quizz, and I would like to know if I won !!! ;D
Thanks for supporting my idea that it is important to separate hype from fact and taking the quiz. Awfully sorry, one can only win a competition if there are a minimum of participants. I once participated in the Finnish National Radio Controlled Airplane Aerobatic Finals as they needed 8 participants and only 7 showed up. Needles to say I was the one with the least points.
Here is what was done: first 4 bars Tyros, then every 4 bars toggled between Genos and Tyros. Easier than using a stop watch.
My quizz was a complete flop as to participation. Not surprising as we have been told, to some the whole idea is a bad one. The Genos is so much better sound wise than the Tyros that people step up to you when you are gigging congratulating you for your new sound.
Unfortunately I had to post an MP3 file due to size restrictions. I for one NEVER use MP3. It destroys any recording.
When you listen to the original WAV file you actually with good speakers can discern a IMHO very slight difference. The Genos
piano sounds a little "earier" . Its difficult to put in words, like when you open he window when you wake up in the morning.
Cheers
Kaarlo
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Kaarlo, sorry to be stupid but I don't quite understand what you compared.
Did you play the music on a Tyros 5 and a Genos, and create an MP3 that merged the two outputs? Or were you playing a Genos only, and swapping between two voices on the Genos (e.g. CFX and ConcertGrand)?
Thanks
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Hello Derek.
I believe that his friend was playing this one song on the Genos and Kaarlo was switching
between a Genos piano and a T5 piano every 4 bars.
If I understood correctly, he was switching between the Genos CFX and the T5 Concert Grand
during the playing of the song, both pianos being played on the Genos.
He had somehow copied the T5 piano and put it in the Genos.
Best Regards.
Abby.
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Hello Derek.
I believe that his friend was playing this one song on the Genos and Kaarlo was switching
between a Genos piano and a T5 piano every 4 bars.
If I understood correctly, he was switching between the Genos CFX and the T5 Concert Grand
during the playing of the song, both pianos being played on the Genos.
He had somehow copied the T5 piano and put it in the Genos.
Best Regards.
Abby.
If that is how Kaarlo ran the comparison it is not technically possible to copy preset voices from one keyboard to another. But it would be unnecessary since the Ty5 pianos are already present on Genos in the Legacy folder.
Running the comparison in the way described above (if indeed it was) may introduce some "unfairness" since the Concert Grand has the benefit of the Genos sound engine reproducing it, which it would not have if played on a Tyros.
When for curiosity I play the CG on Genos it sounds a lot fuller than it used to on Ty4 or Ty5, ;)
John
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I just played Consolation number 3 from Liszt on Genos mainly using CFX piano.
https://youtu.be/4yLRdf62t8E
I’m totally sure my results wouldn’t have been the same with my Tyros 5 and its « concert grand »
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Running the comparison in the way described above (if indeed it was) may introduce some "unfairness" since the Concert Grand has the benefit of the Genos sound engine reproducing it, which it would not have if played on a Tyros.
John
Well exactly. Surely this comparison only has any meaning if one voice came from a physical T5 and the other from a Genos. Othewise, who's to say Yamaha aren't just using the same sample for CFX and GrandPiano on Genos, while the GrandPiano on Tyros is a different sample.
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Hello Derek.
I believe that his friend was playing this one song on the Genos and Kaarlo was switching
between a Genos piano and a T5 piano every 4 bars.
If I understood correctly, he was switching between the Genos CFX and the T5 Concert Grand
during the playing of the song, both pianos being played on the Genos.
He had somehow copied the T5 piano and put it in the Genos.
EXACTLY !
Best Regards.
Abby.
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Well exactly. Surely this comparison only has any meaning if one voice came from a physical T5 and the other from a Genos. Othewise, who's to say Yamaha aren't just using the same sample for CFX and GrandPiano on Genos, while the GrandPiano on Tyros is a different sample.
I am a little confused, have I gotten that wrong ? I thought the advertised better sound of the Genos compared to Tyros 5 was due to new better voice samples.
https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/keyboards/arranger_workstations/genos/features.html
I had one of the first dedicated sample units (expanders) in the 1980is, cannot remember the brand name, It was acceptable for muted trumpets but not the for piano. Not surprisingly there were those who had bought the unit and claimed the "interpolation" was inaudible.
The problem was there were, only 3 samples per octave. The notes in between were arrived at by "interpolation".
YAMAHA long ago started to have one sample for every note, and now they even sample the same note at different velocities and in stereo.
What we did was compare the sound quality of voices by switching from an "imported" Tyros grand piano sample (not legacy) to the CFX grand piano sample on the Genos.
The playing was done on the Genos and digitally recorded, so the Tyros sample may have "benefitted" from being reproduced by the Genos. I believe is difficult to switch between two separate keyboards without the switching being audible.
I do agree with the notion, it would be best to set up both keyboards in a "live" environment connected to the same PA system and then let the player during his performance use both keyboards alternatively and having a blindfolded group of average musical persons listen and lift their right or left hand indicating which instrument they are hearing. I would not be surprised they might very well be able to hear a difference in case there is complete silence.
But that again does not represent a valid test condition. You would have to fill the place with the "normal" noise. My professional meter usually shows 75 dB - 85 dB.
This was not about whether you should buy the Genos or not, this was just about not believing those who claim the audience hears a difference, in which case a professional musician using the keyboard as a tool for revenue would be well advised to consider exchanging his Tyros for the Genos which in that case would not only make YAMAHA money but might make him some money also.
I have - better late than never- understood most on this site feel like Eileen, comparisons are futile and finding the truth is not what we are interested in. That is probably why I never check what my wife does. ;D
Cheers
Kaarlo
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What we did was compare the sound quality of voices by switching from an "imported" Tyros grand piano sample (not legacy) to the CFX grand piano sample on the Genos.
Kaarlo
Hi Kaarlo,
thank you very for doing this test. I love tests of this kind, just for pure science reasons, because we want to know how things work. Very appreciated.
However, I think the title of your post could have been chosen more wisely. In fact, it ts not
* Sound comparison Tyros vs. Genos
But it is
* Comparison of one Tyros voice played on Genos vs. one Genos voice
This is a completely different thing. But this is still very relevant, since we all want to know whether the quality of the piano voices have been augmented from Tyros to Genos.
And what is your conclusion? Do you think the new voices are better? Or even, are they different? Recently I bought the soundpack "3 Grand Pianos" from Phantawalker. Yes, theses samples are very different form the built in Genos samples. I still don't know if they are better. Perhaps I will use them for appropriate occasions.
Kind regards
Uli
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Thanks for your very good points.
1
Yes, how you record does affect the sound. We used the best we had available, digital all the way. And as a fact converting the recorded digital WAV to digital MP3 on the PC using NCH audio editing software did destroy the slight difference we were able to hear on WAV. We did not want to do the original recording in MP3 as we were afraid it would so what it did, blur the difference. As a fact to me MP3 is a no no. All my demo CDs I send to people contemplating to give me a gig are WAV.
With sound it is like with wine tester terminology, hard to find really good words. We felt the Genos was a little "arier", would say like the difference in your bedroom when you wake up and then open the window for a minute. But our main point was to show, any difference in sound quality is so minimal that in a performance situation it will not be discernible.
In this case it was just a comparison switching while playing from using one sound= voice file installed on the Genos, SFX piano to another installed on the Genos voice file, the Tyros Grand Piano.
2
The recording was done from the digital output of the Genos. As with digital outputs in general, output it is not affected by output potentiometer position. It is (surprisigly) ok to use any high quality RCA cable to the Tascam digital recorder SS CD R 1 which fortunately as it is intended for studio use unlike many digital recorders does provide a "digital in volume" adjustment in addition to a "digital out" volume adjustment. The level from the Genos was at something like - 20 dB so the Tascam was adjusted to a higher input level in order not to have to process the result recorded to the card.
3
It is true you can tweak sounds, treble and bass, effects etc. In this case nothing was done because I believe keyboards should give their best without tweaking, that's the manufactures duty. And once you start doing that in a comparison you break the rules governing testing procedures. I was some 30 years ago involved in consumer goods testing and just as an example, if you test washing machine noise level you must make sure everything else is equal, filling degree, filling material location etc.
4
Very good point, I am used to the Steinway grand (1922 model ) I inherited. And as Steinway says, not one Steinway sounds exactly like the others. And typically I feel mine has the best sound as I have heard it consciously for nearly 8 decades.
6
You overestimate my knowledge, I do not have the sligtest idea of what a Argon Accumulator is. I only know Argon is a non reactive gas.
I am vary happy you made your post, I have made quite a few that did attract up to 150 readers but nobody felt they were worth or possible to reply to. Maybe because they were about less wonderful procedures when using the Genos like changing just one instrument in a midi file needing 17 steps.
Cheers
Kaarlo
Hi Kaarlo
You did not answer question 5, unless it's top secret!! :o
But An Argon Accumulator Is a device for squeezing Space so you can travel accross the peaks like a wave file with a little bit of compression.
You would of course need a space vehicle of some kind. The result means you get from A to B a lot quicker Instead of light years.
Hawkwind seems to know about all of this because they have a Silver Machine!!!Oh well we can all dream!!! ::) :P ;D
Like music ,It is all about frequencies ,vibrations and wavelengths and a load of mushroom fodder.
All the best
John :)
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Hello Kaarlo.
Thank you for the quiz, which I found interesting in that it simply encouraged the
listener to spot the difference between one piano and another, and where in the
song did that difference take place.
As you have seen, not many people, other than Soundphase, and Soryt in a way,
wanted to stick their neck out and take a guess.
Like I have said in another post above, taking a guess entailed the risk of getting
it wrong, or admitting that one can't tell the difference, which many have avoided
doing.
Instead, as you have seen, 90% of the responses have concentrated on diversion,
rather than just giving a simple yes or no answer.
I guess it's partly because many of us humans consider ourselves infallible,
so admitting that we don't know something becomes extremely difficult.
It would have been interesting though, to see who could have spotted the
difference, and where.
Best Regards.
Abby.
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Abby - I didn't hear any differences.
I don't think we were actually hearing two different piano samples at all.
I would be very interested to hear the same comparison switching between ConcertGrand recorded on a Tyros 5, and CFX Grand recorded on a Genos.
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Hi Kaarlo,
....... However, I think the title of your post could have been chosen more wisely. In fact, it is not
.... Sound comparison Tyros vs. Genos.
But it is Comparison of one Tyros voice played on Genos vs. one Genos voice
This is a completely different thing. But this is still very relevant, since we all want to know whether the quality of the piano voices have been augmented from Tyros to Genos.
And what is your conclusion? Do you think the new voices are better? Or even, are they different? .....
Kind regards
Uli
Hi Uli,
You are right, the title should have been "How much better is the Genos piano sound compared to the Tyros piano sound"
For me the piano sound is VERY IMPORTAT. My conclusion is, it is better, You can when you play in your studio or on a WAVE recording made from the digital out of the Genos hear a slight difference. I do not know how to describe it, maybe the word "aerier" somehow says something or "a bit like the difference between stereo and mono".
My reason for going to all this trouble was that the difference is so small that already converting the recording to MP3 makes it for me inaudible and as a result I am convinced that in gig circumstances it will not be recognized.
And admittedly, as a YAMAHA keyboarder since the early 1990s I felt uncomfortable when people post they are congratulated at gigs for their wonderful new keyboard due to its sound.
For me it seems a fact that the sampling technology of YAMAHA has reached a perfection with the Tyros line that cannot be much improved upon. And in this department "the law of diminishing return" seems very real. ( I have not even considered or listened to any other makes as learning a new system is out of the question at my age)
Claims that upgrading to Genos is worthwhile for a gigging musician due to the difference in sound has for me a hollow (commercial) ring.
What does not have a hollow ring to me is people saying,
I have the money, I want the latest, I believe it is the best and there is no space for bills in my coffin.
The Genos has many advantages over the Tyros 5/6 that are indisputable, weight, size, sliders, assignable buttons etc. One excellent feature that weighs very heavily for me is the STYLE CREATOR with which I have tweaked over 100 styles of various provenience that until Genos were unusable.
Why would I have bothered to spend 4 months digging into Genos if it did not offer very appealing features ?
There is no need for making unrealistic claims. IMHO it is counterproductive even from a commercial point of view not to admit there still are things in the Genos that need to be fixed. It is OK to point out that something needed is not implemented so it is not a bug, but denying an obvious implementation error distracts from the allure of the product makes me wonder whether the posters are like those who post Putin and Trump are just fantastic.
Cheers
Kaarlo
-
Kaarlo I can see your point of view but when a keyboard is playing a style there are more voices been heard than a right hand voice.
Combining them together you have a number of sounds that can make a difference between two keyboards (3 RH voices+LH voice+8 part voices+effects etc).
And I think that is what they probably mean about the difference of the sound between them.
If the audience can understand the difference?
I don't know.I don't gig to have personal opinion about their comments and what they hear.
I guess they are probably more focus on eating,drinking and chatting rather than analyzing what they hear.
I will also mention the fact that the kind of music that someone may plays, defines the kind of styles and sounds he is using.
For new pop music unfortunately for us the newer the keyboard, the better.
Or if it is traditional or even modern but non western music, probably a grand piano sound isn't going to be used at all but the revo drums can make a difference.
I didn't like windows 10 so I didn't installed them neither at home or at my pc at work, because i don't use or have to use many of their new features.
But for someone who is more familiar than me in using smartphones/tablets/I pads,
their interface maybe more convinied to him so I never asked to myself "Why did he do it"?
-
Kaarlo I can see your point of view but when a keyboard is playing a style there are more voices been heard than a right hand voice.
Combining them together you have a number of sounds that can make a difference between two keyboards (3 RH voices+LH voice+8 part voices+effects etc).
And I think that is what they probably mean about the difference of the sound between them.
If the audience can understand the difference?
I don't know.I don't gig to have personal opinion about their comments and what they hear.
I guess they are probably more focus on eating,drinking and chatting rather than analyzing what they hear.
I will also mention the fact that the kind of music that someone may plays, defines the kind of styles and sounds he is using.
For new pop music unfortunately for us the newer the keyboard, the better.
Or if it is traditional or even modern but non western music, probably a grand piano sound isn't going to be used at all but the revo drums can make a difference.
I didn't like windows 10 so I didn't installed them neither at home or at my pc at work, because i don't use or have to use many of their new features.
But for someone who is more familiar than me in using smartphones/tablets/I pads,
their interface maybe more convinied to him so I never asked to myself "Why did he do it"?
Thanks Panos for a post that consoled me. Everything you wrote is exactly what I believe things are. And BTW No windows 10 here, no tablet, not even a smart phone ;D. Widows 7 in the office because I believed the b....t that my book keeping would crash because XP would become the cyber criminals target. XP on the lap top I must use to adjust the autopilots in UAVs. I am still involved in the RD of new UAVs for the Finnish defense forces. Contrary to what was claimed XP has worked flawlessly since end of support and so has my YAMAHA 5700 (1992) The Genos has some fantastic advantages. There is no disagreement whatsoever on that. But I will wait until they get the bugs that are claimed not to exist straightened out.
Cheers
Kaarlo
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Hi,
I hope I don't offend anybody here ... ;)
never r
It really is not rocket science. Some people seem to make things more complicated than they really are.
We are talking about music here and having some fun with it (at least I hope so)
I am with Eileen on this ...
Again: Sorry if I offend anybody
Just some observations ;)
Regards
Eric
Great post Eric!
-
I compared them yesterday.. for a few hours...
Genos vs Tyros..
And if you know that the AWM2 sound engine in both instruments is exactly the same
And most samples where also in the T5, then many of the sounds are near to the same..
However, where it comes to new sounds.. like the upgraded piano’s
Then there is clearly a difference, ..
And this goes for all new sounds in the Genos, they are of the highest quallity
Same for the EVO drum sounds, these ar not on T5 and are better then everything the T5 has to offer.
Total sample memmory of Genos is 3 time sthe size of the T5 if i am right
And all this memmory is used for maybe 100+ new sounds..
Another huge step is the number of new sa2 sounds..
Where the Genos makes the biggest step in sound quallity, is the DSP section
Having 28 insert effects is a huge step for the overall creativity and sound quallity..
Espescially for people like me that love improving sounds trough dsp..
Also i think some of the improved and new styles are musically more to my liking and more live sounding then its predecessors..
The weak point to me, for both instruments from Yamaha is their synth sounds, this is where i definately like the pa4x and espescially my Kronos so much better. But i realise this sound cattegory is not the most important to most arranger players
Fun thing is, the 2 things that set Genos appart from T5 most are not directly sound related.
First there is the much lower weight, which is a real deal for gigging musicians.
And then there is the whole new interface with..
- live controlls
- touchscreen
- assignable buttons
- joystick (love the extra button)
Which for me makes the whole experience just so much more enjoyable on a Genos.
The Genos is the best arranger keyboard available right now.
(Which i have allways said, even tough all my intial criticisme still stands)
I also like it more then my current pa4x..
Not just for the more wellrounded sound
But mostly for the filehandling where it comes to styles and performances..
Its a god blessing to be able to play directly from directories on a USB stick.. amd chnaging between them on the fly..
As i have allways said, i will not buy any arranger in the first 6 months after release
I am right now in the phase of deciding to buy a Genos, yes or no, thats the question..
Its a lot of money for replacing something you are allready quite happy with.
All depends on how much i will be able to get for my pa4x..
Let me finish with this...
Both the Genos and the Tyros5 as well as the Korg Pa4x are incredible instruments..
And the differences are in the small details..
Just play what makes you happy and enjoy it..
Or just enjoy the best you can afford..
Because there are no bad instruments these days
So its all about enjoying the music you make..
-
Bachus, Good job with your review, thanks for the in-depth write up.
-
Thank you for your review @Bachus (and other reviewers too ;)).
Could you (or anyone else) clarify more about this quoted item:
I compared them yesterday.. for a few hours...
Genos vs Tyros..
........
'quoting'...
The weak point to me, for both instruments from Yamaha is their synth sounds, this is where i definately like the pa4x and espescially my Kronos so much better. But i realise this sound cattegory is not the most important to most arranger players
.......
For me the Synths are an important isue in a keyboard (for EDM).
@Bachus, do you mean that the existing (preset) Synthsounds are not satisfing you? Could they be improved by the user or by third-party venues? What I want to know if those new DSP's could be used to improved a particular synthsound to ones need? Then save it for future use? Or is it technical not possible within the Genos?
I know that it is possible in various ways to get better/customed synths, but I just want to have it in 1 (one) keyboard.
I'm not interested in other keyboard brands/vst's etc. Just asking to clarify your statement, as I'm not knowing the Genos, but heavenly considering to obtain one ;)
Thanks in advance.
-
I compared them yesterday.. for a few hours...
Genos vs Tyros..
And if you know that the AWM2 sound engine in both instruments is exactly the same
And most samples where also in the T5, then many of the sounds are near to the same..
However, where it comes to new sounds.. like the upgraded piano’s
Then there is clearly a difference, ..
And this goes for all new sounds in the Genos, they are of the highest quallity
Same for the EVO drum sounds, these ar not on T5 and are better then everything the T5 has to offer.
Total sample memmory of Genos is 3 time sthe size of the T5 if i am right
And all this memmory is used for maybe 100+ new sounds..
Another huge step is the number of new sa2 sounds..
Where the Genos makes the biggest step in sound quallity, is the DSP section
Having 28 insert effects is a huge step for the overall creativity and sound quallity..
Espescially for people like me that love improving sounds trough dsp..
Also i think some of the improved and new styles are musically more to my liking and more live sounding then its predecessors..
The weak point to me, for both instruments from Yamaha is their synth sounds, this is where i definately like the pa4x and espescially my Kronos so much better. But i realise this sound cattegory is not the most important to most arranger players
Fun thing is, the 2 things that set Genos appart from T5 most are not directly sound related.
First there is the much lower weight, which is a real deal for gigging musicians.
And then there is the whole new interface with..
- live controlls
- touchscreen
- assignable buttons
- joystick (love the extra button)
Which for me makes the whole experience just so much more enjoyable on a Genos.
The Genos is the best arranger keyboard available right now.
(Which i have allways said, even tough all my intial criticisme still stands)
I also like it more then my current pa4x..
Not just for the more wellrounded sound
But mostly for the filehandling where it comes to styles and performances..
Its a god blessing to be able to play directly from directories on a USB stick.. amd chnaging between them on the fly..
As i have allways said, i will not buy any arranger in the first 6 months after release
I am right now in the phase of deciding to buy a Genos, yes or no, thats the question..
Its a lot of money for replacing something you are allready quite happy with.
All depends on how much i will be able to get for my pa4x..
Let me finish with this...
Both the Genos and the Tyros5 as well as the Korg Pa4x are incredible instruments..
And the differences are in the small details..
Just play what makes you happy and enjoy it..
Or just enjoy the best you can afford..
Because there are no bad instruments these days
So its all about enjoying the music you make..
Exactly! I'm about ready to find a Genos to audition. I agree with everything you said!
-
.. I'm about ready to find a Genos to audition.
WOW, good news Don, because that tell us your healt is better!
Only wish I could be there to hear you pick at those lovely Genos guitars. :)
Quote @Bachus:
Just play what makes you happy and enjoy it..
Or just enjoy the best you can afford..
Because there are no bad instruments these days
So its all about enjoying the music you make..
So true! 8)
-
Thank you for your review @Bachus (and other reviewers too ;)).
Could you (or anyone else) clarify more about this quoted item:
For me the Synths are an important isue in a keyboard (for EDM).
@Bachus, do you mean that the existing (preset) Synthsounds are not satisfing you? Could they be improved by the user or by third-party venues? What I want to know if those new DSP's could be used to improved a particular synthsound to ones need? Then save it for future use? Or is it technical not possible within the Genos?
I know that it is possible in various ways to get better/customed synths, but I just want to have it in 1 (one) keyboard.
I'm not interested in other keyboard brands/vst's etc. Just asking to clarify your statement, as I'm not knowing the Genos, but heavenly considering to obtain one ;)
Thanks in advance.
Its just personal preference i guess
I never liked the yamaha analogueish synth sounds
(Except for the cs80 series, but the those where really authentic)
(And offcourse the dx and vl synths)
In general yamaha sounds very warm..
Thats what i really like about yamaha
But synths sometimes need to be crispy harsh and dynamic
Personally i think yamaha sticks to much to the warm side of the spectrum.
And not just with Genos but will their AWM synths..
Offcourse, you can do quite some edditing
To edit them and make them more your own..
Or even load a whole bunch of samples in the expansion memmory..
Another thing id lfo’s..
The awm2 has 3 lfo’s..
In Genos You can’t assign them freely
They are typically assigned to pitch, amplitude and filter
They are used to create vibrato tremmolo and wah..
For more advanced synth sounds
You would like to assign them to other parameters
Like pan, attack or a delay
Making synth sounds much more dynamic in nature.
And then there are the filters..
I don’t think any other synth engine has as many options as the awm2
But the filter quallity is in my book average at best..
And filter performance is one of the most important things for EDM..
Many of the wellknown effects we know in todays EDM are created by manipulating filter cutoff and resonance..
But then, in the end, Genos is not a synth..
Its an arranger.. and the soundengine is created for o so many more sounds then just synths..
-
Ton these are the Genos effects.
Reverb 59 Preset + 3 User
Chorus 107 Preset + 3 User
DSP Variation: 358 Preset (with VCM) + 3 User | Insertion 1-28: 358 Preset (with VCM) + 10 User
You can use them to any voice to change and save it as a new voice as we can do it in other models.
There are preset synth voices to do it.
But if you want to create a new voice that doesn't exist on Genos or any other Yamaha keyboard you can create that voice on a pc and then insert the voice to Genos.
I saw Jan taking a .wav format voice and use it for his s970.
https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,43485.msg343550.html#msg343550 (https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,43485.msg343550.html#msg343550)
I guess this way he can create his own voices for his packs except from modifying the preset voices.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKMCMKzVg20 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKMCMKzVg20)
Genos's synth voices and effects are limited compared to a synthesizer's
but maybe a synthesizer's voices and effects are limited compare to a pc
so the good thing is that we have so many options nowdays that is hard to choose. :)
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Thank you @Bachus & @Panos, this is good to read. For me this style of music (EDM etc.) is being underexposed in the Genos Demoes. I'v sold my T5 (76) because is was to large for installing in my studio.
I was looking for a T5 (61) momentairly. But the more I read/listen etc. concerning the Genos I am parking the hunt for a T5(61) and consider again to focus on the Genos.
So thank you again for your replies. Mmm.. luxury problems are here again ;) Regards Ton
-
Tyros 5 preset dance styles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EI85MEXHLw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EI85MEXHLw)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAciHmQkKkI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAciHmQkKkI)
Genos preset dance styles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KlHMMGMbII&t=7231s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KlHMMGMbII&t=7231s)
Genos advertising & promotion I guess was supposed to be for us, the older guys who can afford an expencive keyboard and because we are older we don't like to play new music that much or at least if we do,we are the big minority (that's true ;D)
So lets advertise the brand new cfx piano sound,the new "oldies but goodies" styles etc
But if you are young and still have not much money to spend for a keyboard,
here is the advertisment for the e-series.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91ViS-_FEOM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91ViS-_FEOM)
I wonder if it has a piano sound in it, but if you are a teenage who cares (they thought)
i am just kidding :D
-
Hi Panos, good post.
I’m think that you are 100% correct
Do you think that’s the reason that Yamaha has not updated the sequencer and the style creator for the past 20 years because they believe that the older players (can’t take it with us- gang) will never use it.
Are you saying that they have made a nice cabinet with nice sounds and that’s it.
Seems a shame to me that we cannot easily edit and make new styles from midi like Korg and Ketron and be able to easily output midi to a dedicated PC sequencer like Cubase for Genos. (Yamaha owned)
Do you think that Genos 2 will have more styles and more sounds ONLY, and the older players will still go out and buy it because, "we cant take it with us" or as Eileen says, “there’s no pockets in shrouds,”
This whole thing is beginning to sound like a joke,
Will YAMAHA ever make a real “Arranger Keyboard’ with arranging tools that suits a "style based" instrument or will they stick to playing this game for the sake of making money,?
My guess is that we will have Genos 5 and still no real “style editing”
I was hoping that Yamaha would have turned out a few iPad apps by now.
Then players would be happy and players/style editors would be happy.
There was much better editing on the Technics keyboards of 25 years ago
Just my take,
Pino
-
There was much better editing on the Technics keyboards of 25 years ago
Guess you should have stuck with Technics, because from what you said, Yamaha isn't for you.
Good thing there are other companies catering to your marketplace so you don't have to put up with Yamaha's inferior products.
Fred
-
Fred,
I still have Technics, Korg and Ketron keyboards
But,
I have been using Yamaha keyboards for my gigs for the past 10 years
I know Yamaha styles inside and out and I like Yamaha styles,
I can play over the intros and endings, I know each one,
That’s important to me when I’m out gigging
Why should I have to jump ship now
All I’m asking for is better style editing
An iPad app would do,
Why is that such a big deal for Yamaha Music,
My dealer says that “Yamaha Musicsoft” would stop such ‘apps’
Cos they want to sell styles to us.
Why are you so defensive of Yamaha?
Isn’t it better to talk about these things and hopefully someone is listening,
And maybe there could be some changes in the future
Can’t you just say, “YES, the Yamaha Style Creator of the past 20 years needs updating?”
I believe you never use the ‘style creator’, then stick to what you do and not comment.
Pino
-
All I’m asking for is better style editing
An iPad app would do,
Why is that such a big deal for Yamaha Music,
My dealer says that “Yamaha Musicsoft” would stop such ‘apps’
Cos they want to sell styles to us.
There are already computer programs for creating and editing Yamaha styles, or converting from Yamaha styles to other manufacturers' formats and vice versa, and Yamaha MusicSoft hasn't put an end to those programs, so I don't see why they should care one way or the other if someone were to make an iPad app for creating and editing styles.
If Yamaha were against people being able to create and edit styles, then they wouldn't include the Style Creator on their keyboards at all, would they? ???
-
Pino
I believe what Fred is expressing is that many of us are getting tired of the stream of posts which focus on what the Genos or other Yamaha keyboards do not do, instead of accepting and exploring what it does. Yamaha has a business plan and philosophy for each of their keyboards, and they are absolutely entitled to that, just as you are entitled to not buy it if you don't like it. Why are you not using the Technics for your gigs, .....because overall it isn't as good, even if it has a couple of features you like. Just like every other product.
Mike
-
What is stopping you creating your own styles in Genos or adding riffs to the existing ones. Like Technics you can mix style parts from other styles to create new ones. Plus the fact that there are thousands of dedicated styles on the net that you can adapt to your own use.
-
Guys, can’t I have my say without being shot down mainly by members that did not have any input whatsoever on this topic and probably never use the ‘style creator’, why butt in on something you don’t use, if you did use it then you would probably agree with me,
I just asked a question on why Yamaha has not updated the ‘style creator’ in many, many years.
It’s a feature that I do use when ever I am away from my PC, even on a gig I may tweak something on my break time, I always have my iPad Pro with me but no apps there for editing styles.
Seagruff
All my styles are song specific and only have one song intro, when I gig I want Easy, no pressing the wrong intro for me, you mention many programs for editing styles, how many can shut down 2 intros and 2 endings,? Please tell me.
mikf, it would have been better if you had red my post first before replying.
I have been using Yamaha keyboards for my gigs for the past 10 years
I know Yamaha styles inside and out and I like Yamaha styles,
I can play over the intros and endings, I know each one,
That’s important to me when I’m out gigging
Better still if you were to comment on why Yamaha has not updated the onboard ‘style creator’ in many years,
Fred, —- why so GRUMPY 😡
This is a Yamaha Arranger Keyboard Forum, I was hoping that we could express our views on how to improve something and discuss the good and the bad,
Now I’m beginning to doubt this,
Regards to all. :)
Pino
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Better still if you were to comment on why Yamaha has not updated the onboard ‘style creator’ in many years,
Fred, —- why so GRUMPY 😡
You're the one who's grumpy, Pino.
You ask for the freedom to express your views, but deny that to others.
You push away the very people who could help you.
People have commented on why style creator has not been updated -- you're the one who's not listening.
You're only hurting yourself.
Fred
-
Pino
I believe what Fred is expressing is that many of us are getting tired of the stream of posts which focus on what the Genos or other Yamaha keyboards do not do, instead of accepting and exploring what it does. Yamaha has a business plan and philosophy for each of their keyboards, and they are absolutely entitled to that, just as you are entitled to not buy it if you don't like it. Why are you not using the Technics for your gigs, .....because overall it isn't as good, even if it has a couple of features you like. Just like every other product.
Mike
Why so harsh?
For a typical arranger player, the Genos is near perfect... it really is..
Sure deep edditing requires Yem. And deep style edditing is better dome on a PC..
But thats not really an issue for most arranger players..
You must also see that there are other people with differenet idea’s wants and needs... for example :
- playing EDM on an arranger..
- having styles on stage piano..
- having an arranger module for use with your accordion..
- having a fullfledged workstation with arranger capabilities
Just to name a few..
Many of these people feel a little forgotten..
That noboddy is building the instrument they dream off
They are all arranger players
And looking at the most expensive and best performing they see something that doesn’t fit their needs..
And thats why people then go to the online forums and speak aloud...
For those things they where hoping for..
I don’t see anything to get upset about..
If you don’t agree, just say so and then just neglect them..
Its a fact, for some the Genos is perfect..
For others its not..
But i dont see any major changes to this comming up
So for everyone the advise to accept the Genos as it is
And either make the best of it and add it to your setup..
And post your wishlist in a topic in the group : Yamaha’s next keyboard.. on this forum
While there is allways a place for criticisme on this forum
With the instrument released and final specs set in stone
Things will not change much anymore, you can leave that up to Yamaha arranger development
They never made huge changes to software
And i have come to the conclusion that its highly unlikely they will do so with the Genos..
It might sound strange this comming from me..
But i agree that there is no use takking about criticisme and missing features of the Genos on the Genos main board.
We could start a topic for that on the prementioned next yamaha group..
Sure all my initial criticisme still holds.
But i agree, this is not the place now to discuss such things
This group is for helping other users get the best experience possible with the Genos.
So let me finish this discussion with a question, i would like to ask those experienced helpfull users that are the reason i still visit this forum..
Is it possible to see what voices are in the OTS sets 1 to 4 witouth selecting them? (Trough a menu screen or such)
-
If you select a multi pad set and then press edit at top right of screen and then edit you will see voices in that set. Very quick and easy to do.
-
Hello Everyone.
Many of us, including myself, have long pleaded for civility and understanding
on this forum.
For a very long time now I have been biting my lip and holding back on writing about an
issue that I find a bit disconcerting.
I fervently hope that my writing about this issue will not get my post deleted.
There is a certain Gentleman who specialises in ridiculing, and giving caustic and uncivil
ripostes to members, every time they raise an issue or point out a flaw in a Yamaha keyboard
or anything Yamaha related for that matter.
This has been going on for a long time, and unfortunately still happens very frequently,
yet this particular Gentleman still seems able to get away with it every time.
WHY?
This is the Elephant in the room that many members recognise, but no one wants to address,
But WHY do we tolerate this and say nothing?
I hope this helps to rectify this problem.
Best Regards.
Abby.
-
Hello Everyone.
Many of us, including myself, have long pleaded for civility and understanding
on this forum.
For a very long time now I have been biting my lip and holding back on writing about an
isues that I find a bit disconcerting.
I fervently hope that my writing about this issue will not get my post deleted.
There is a certain Gentleman who specialises in ridiculing, and giving caustic and uncivil
ripostes to members, every time they raise an issue or point out a flaw in a Yamaha keyboard
or anything Yamaha related for that matter.
This has been going on for a long time, and unfortunately still happens very frequently,
yet this particular Gentleman still seems able to get away with it every time.
WHY?
This is the Elephant in the room that many members recognise, but no one wants to address,
But WHY do we tolerate this and say nothing?
I hope this helps to rectify this problem.
Best Regards.
Abby.
Wow, i have never been called an elephant before..
Would be nice to, allways having a trumpet on your nose..
-
If you select a multi pad set and then press edit at top right of screen and then edit you will see voices in that set. Very quick and easy to do.
Thanks Eileen, i will be checking this..
Sounds like the answer i was looking for
-
Quoting Bachus,
"Is it possible to see what voices are in the OTS sets 1 to 4 witouth selecting them? (Trough a menu screen or such)"
Eileen mentioned Multipads, if it is the voice makeup of the OTS's you want to see touch Direct Access followed by one of the OTS buttons. The 4 voice sets show on screen.
(Alternatively touch Style/Menu/Style Information).
John
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Quoting Bachus,
"Is it possible to see what voices are in the OTS sets 1 to 4 witouth selecting them? (Trough a menu screen or such)"
Eileen mentioned Multipads, if it is the voice makeup of the OTS's you want to see touch Direct Access followed by one of the OTS buttons. The 4 voice sets show on screen.
(Alternatively touch Style/Menu/Style Information).
John
Thanks John, that somehow sounds more logical...
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Why so harsh?
You must also see that there are other people with differenet idea’s wants and needs... for example :
- playing EDM on an arranger..
- having styles on stage piano..
- having an arranger module for use with your accordion..
- having a fullfledged workstation with arranger capabilities
Just to name a few..
The Issue of EDM has come up a few times...
EDM is as vast as Country, Pop Rock etc.
I love playing EDM and the Genos is perfect for my needs.
I have the Euro dance pack, downloaded some free stuff and made my own styles to suit my needs.
Plus there are other packs for sale as well as a ton of styles on the Yamaha site.
Depending on what type of EDM you are looking for there is quite a bit out there.
Now I would like to address an observation:
I read people want this or that on different forums.
If we look closely it is always the same 3-5 people posting the same stuff in slightly different ways.
To me it hardly represents the rest of the arranger or Yamaha community or majority.
As you said: you can't please everybody.
But I agree the Genos is one of the best arrangers out there and capable of some amazing music in nearly all genres.
I think sometimes we forget to have fun and play some amazing music with these amazing arrangers. :D
Eric
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Why should I have to jump ship now. All I’m asking for is better style editing. An iPad app would do,
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Why are you so defensive of Yamaha? Isn’t it better to talk about these things and hopefully someone is listening,
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Can’t you just say, “YES, the Yamaha Style Creator of the past 20 years needs updating?”
I believe you never use the ‘style creator’, then stick to what you do and not comment.
Pino
You wrote “This is a Yamaha Arranger Keyboard Forum, I was hoping that we could express our views on how to improve something and discuss the good and the bad. Now I’m beginning to doubt this.
Dear Pino,
I am new on this site, you are not. Have you forgotten this site is for posting
"My long awaited Genos arrived half an hour ago, it is fantastic, the best keyboard ever" to which someone will an answer
"Glad to read a positive appraisal. I am happy you like Genos. You are right, it is the best keyboard ever and sales are much better than for any previous top model"
This site is not for posting things we dislike on Genos and even less things we like on other keyboards whether they are a YAMAHA competitor or no more exist.
My experience is, if you post anything that does not promote YAMAHA sales you will first be accused of claiming you did something that cannot be done - like transferring a Tyros 5 voice to the Genos - ( = let’s destroy the guys credibility) and when that is cleared not to be true, somebody will question whether you really did what you claimed to have done - switch sounds files during playing. (= let’s destroy the guy's credibility) And finally someone will post the "whole idea of comparing sounds is good for nothing” in spite of the fact that superior sound has been claimed to be immediately audible even for the audience at gigs so a good reason to buy.
When I wrote the Parameter lock does not function as it should I was accused of spreading false information, as it does until the keyboard is switched off. Then someone chimed in that the fact it does only work until switch off is mentioned in some function list on the manual so it is clear it will not. So yes in fact it is not a bug it is just plain sloppy software design. The truth is YAMAHA did realize what is clicked on the parameter lock list should survive switch off just like the split does and they corrected that error for the foot switches from the Tyros to the Genos. They just forgot to do that for the harmony/mic setting, so on this site saying the Parameter Lock does not function is insulting YAMAHA and I agree we should not be insulting, it is just that just stating the truth can be perceived as an insult.
I intended to post about some things that were better on TYROS and should be implemented in Genos but I have understood that is not what this site is for.
If you post about something you overlooked to which there is a remedy, this site is very useful and I have several times been helped.
If you ask whether something can be done on Genos which cannot be done you will get readers but not the answer "Unfortunately this can not yet be done on Genos. You get zero answers. You will find postings "I cannot find anything is lacking"
Pino, I believe you better remember according to this site Genos was the best keyboard ever even at 1.1. and the buyers who paid a hefty price and anyway cannot take their money with them when they leave, should be very grateful to YAMAHA that most of the bugs - not yet all - were fixed within a few months with 1.3 .
Maybe I am paranoid, living a few blocks from Mr. Lavrow’s subordinate (who like his master denies the existence of anything that is not praising Russia) The "Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary " yesterday here declared in an interview " I am not going to answer any questions about the Crimea.The whole issue is a malicious invention of the US”.
Cheers
Kaarlo
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Wow, i have never been called an elephant before..
Would be nice to, allways having a trumpet on your nose..
Hello Bachus.
I wasn't referring to you I'm afraid. I was referring to another Gentleman.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
I hope this helps.
Best Regards
Abby.
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When I wrote the Parameter lock does not function as it should I was accused of spreading false information, as it does until the keyboard is switched off. Then someone chimed in that the fact it does only work until switch off is mentioned in some function list on the manual so it is clear it will not. So yes in fact it is not a bug it is just plain sloppy software design. The truth is YAMAHA did realize what is clicked on the parameter lock list should survive switch off just like the split does and they corrected that error for the foot switches from the Tyros to the Genos. They just forgot to do that for the harmony/mic setting, so on this site saying the Parameter Lock does not function is insulting YAMAHA and I agree we should not be insulting, it is just that just stating the truth can be perceived as an insult.
I intended to post about some things that were better on TYROS and should be implemented in Genos but I have understood that is not what this site is for.
Kaarlo,
You misunderstand this site completely.
You stated that there was a bug in Parameter Lock. I pointed out this was incorrect. You now agree there is no bug.
You are also of the opinion that Parameter Lock is sloppily designed, and I would agree with you. But that's what you have to post. You can't claim there's a bug when there's not, but you should certainly post what you think could be improved.
So we would love to hear where you think Tyros is than Genos. That's what this site is for. But when you post, you will get replies, because that's what this site is for. And some of those replies will have a difference of opinion, because that's what this site is for. And if the post contains factual errors (eg, "Parameter Lock worked better on Tyros"), the error will be pointed out (eg, "Parameter Lock works exactly the same on Genos as it did on Tyros").
Hope this helps,
Fred
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Wow, i have never been called an elephant before..
Would be nice to, allways having a trumpet on your nose..
Bachus, I am sure, that you were not addressed by the elephant. ;)
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Bachus, I am sure, that you were not addressed by the elephant. ;)
I still wouldn’t mind to be able to use my nose as a trumpet tough 😜
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Is it possible to see what voices are in the OTS sets 1 to 4 witouth selecting them? (Trough a menu screen or such)
Hi Bachus,
John was right, pressing the "Direct Access" then "OTS 1" button will give you the following "Style Information" screen with details of OTS 1 to OTS 4 setting information:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/823/42105311111_08c96044d6_b.jpg)
Thanks,
Paul
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Kaarlo,
-------You are also of the opinion that Parameter Lock is sloppily designed, and I would agree with you. But that's what you have to post. You can't claim there's a bug when there's not, but you should certainly post what you think could be improved.
So we would love to hear where you think Tyros is than Genos. That's what this site is for.
Hope this helps,
Fred
Thanks Fred, and I really mean THANKS, not like you say “how are you” to which the correct answer is “how are you”.
You are correct, stating the Parameter lock had a bug was incorrect, I should have said the implementation of the Parameter Lock is not consistent, split point can take a shut off, harmony/mic can not.
As to what was easier on the Tyros
A German YAMAHA site recommended that you split the HD into 4 partitions due to the limited amount of subfolders/subfolders/subfoldlers on Tyros. Mine is partitioned like most in this region.
As so often what is good for one thing might later bring problems. The splitting made it extremely difficult to transfer reg banks to Genos which prompted YAMAHA Scandinavia to say it was not possible though it could be done in case your HD was not split. I cited YAMAHA and it turned out the information was not correct for those who did not have a split the HD.
On the Tyros there are 12 STYLE buttons and you can make them go wherever you want on the partitions. Most of them of course went direct to STYLES I never use so I put a Brother P-touch sticker on them and made them go where I wanted to of the 200 styles I have tweaked to my liking. The majority has been collected over the years, some copied from the presets. So pressing for instance DANCE re-labeled to BLUEGRASS takes me directly to a page
BLUEGRASS slow
BLUEGRASS fast.
If I want 'Blugrass' fast I click that and immediately can chose from up to from 10 on the first page. 3 clicks. (of course if I have tweaked more than ten I would have to go to the next page)
(Not very important: The icons accumulated over the years can surprisingly be reproduced by Genos. They are very colorful and immediately identifiable. A great many of the choice offered on Genos are not. The black ones for instance are not easily identifiable in difficult lighting situations except that they are black ! To really know which type you are loking at they should not all be black but have different colors)
On genos - maybe my fault – I have found no way to go directly to my USER STYLES. So I click the STYLE BUTTOM which takes me to the PRESET STYLES I never use. Then I must click USER which takes me to my style tree
COMBO STYLE BOOGIE STYLE
BIG BAND STYLE ROCK STYLE
DIXIELAND STYLE WALZ STYLE
CANTRY STYLE BALLAD STYLE
BLUES STYLE MISCELANIOUS STYLE
I would like to go directly to the USER STYLES as I copied all preset styles I might use to the user drive, tweaked them and integrated them into a "tree" together with about 200 styles accumulated over a very long time
The same of course applies to songs. When I on TYROS click one of the I – IV SONG BUTTONs labeled the way I want them to act they go directly to important often used song pages.
On Genos when I press SONG it goes to a page that for me is useless. I must then make another click to arrive at my song tree
BALLAD SONGS COUNTRY & SHUFFLE SONGS
COMBO SWING SONGS LATIN SONGS
BIG BAND SWING SONGS WALZ SONGS
ROCK & BLUES SONGS MARCHES
DIXIELAND SONGS MISCELLANIOUS SONGS
So IMHO also choosing a song is easier in Tyros
Off course the assignable buttons, as the sliders and buttons on Genos are a great incentive to switch to Genos, but unlike those who claim they cannot find anything that could be improved on Genos I feel once we can have a button taking us to the mixer page – you needed far more steps for that on Tyros – it would be great if we could assign button A to the Style mixer, B to the 1-8 song mixer and C to the 9 – 16 mixer page and not have to go to the screen for that.
Off topic: All this is not why I have not switched to Genos yet, my problem that no-one has so far been able to understand nor solve is the fact that the reg bank saving is still not reliable to put it very kindly.
When I to-day called up 5 reg banks that when called up last Friday worked, not one works correctly anymore though they were left alone.
The reg information and what you see when you press Style (and hear) has nothing to do with each other. The only bank that still works is the one containing only Genos preset styles. So maybe the problem is related to what styles are used and might therefore not show up with users who use only Genos preset styles, which would explain the enthusiastic posts of those who have just unpacked their keyboard. Naby users may not even have a huge stock of styles they do not want to miss.
I made a factory reset of everything except registration. Made no difference.
The only thing that consoles me - albeit a meager one - is the YAMAHA rep here does not claim the the user is the problem as he has seen himself what happens.
Cheers
Kaarlo
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Hi Bachus,
John was right, pressing the "Direct Access" then "OTS 1" button will give you the following "Style Information" screen with details of OTS 1 to OTS 4 setting information:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/823/42105311111_08c96044d6_b.jpg)
Thanks,
Paul
Thanks Paul, that explains it all..
And to be honest, i should have found that by myself, direct access is such a helpfull tool..
Now another question..
Can i save a single OTS setting somewhere, so i can recall it and add it to another style..
Or do i need to save them as a performance?
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Thanks Paul, that explains it all..
And to be honest, i should have found that by myself, direct access is such a helpfull tool..
Now another question..
Can i save a single OTS setting somewhere, so i can recall it and add it to another style..
Or do i need to save them as a performance?
Hi Bachus,
Yes, you can modify OTS settings, including voices and effects, press "Memory" then the OTS button, and save the changed style as a new user style in the User or USB1 storage area.
The following video explains it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjS6uW-YCCs
Thanks,
Paul
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Bachus I believe it is easier to create some registrations banks with just some favorite OTS voices and nothing else saved in there (no styles and anything else,just voices and their effects).
It is easy to find them this way and you don't have to change the style you working on or playing.
Furthermore, you got 10 OTS settings to choose at once without having to open another file.
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The only bank that still works is the one containing only Genos preset styles. So maybe the problem is related to what styles are used and might therefore not show up with users who use only Genos preset styles . . . . ,
Kaarlo
Kaarlo
I use lots of external styles on my Genos (i.e. Styles that did not come with Genos) and have not experienced registrations problems.
You can probably eliminate external styles as a possible source of problem. I hope you find a solution.
I have all my registrations, external styles, external multipads, external midi songs, etc on a USB stick that i plug into Genos.
I have nothing in the USER area.
thanks
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As to what was easier on the Tyros
A German YAMAHA site recommended that you split the HD into 4 partitions due to the limited amount of subfolders/subfolders/subfoldlers on Tyros. Mine is partitioned like most in this region.
As so often what is good for one thing might later bring problems. The splitting made it extremely difficult to transfer reg banks to Genos which prompted YAMAHA Scandinavia to say it was not possible though it could be done in case your HD was not split. I cited YAMAHA and it turned out the information was not correct for those who did not have a split the HD.
On the Tyros there are 12 STYLE buttons and you can make them go wherever you want on the partitions. Most of them of course went direct to STYLES I never use so I put a Brother P-touch sticker on them and made them go where I wanted to of the 200 styles I have tweaked to my liking. The majority has been collected over the years, some copied from the presets. So pressing for instance DANCE re-labeled to BLUEGRASS takes me directly to a page
BLUEGRASS slow
BLUEGRASS fast.
If I want 'Blugrass' fast I click that and immediately can chose from up to from 10 on the first page. 3 clicks. (of course if I have tweaked more than ten I would have to go to the next page)
(Not very important: The icons accumulated over the years can surprisingly be reproduced by Genos. They are very colorful and immediately identifiable. A great many of the choice offered on Genos are not. The black ones for instance are not easily identifiable in difficult lighting situations except that they are black ! To really know which type you are loking at they should not all be black but have different colors)
On genos - maybe my fault – I have found no way to go directly to my USER STYLES. So I click the STYLE BUTTOM which takes me to the PRESET STYLES I never use. Then I must click USER which takes me to my style tree
COMBO STYLE BOOGIE STYLE
BIG BAND STYLE ROCK STYLE
DIXIELAND STYLE WALZ STYLE
CANTRY STYLE BALLAD STYLE
BLUES STYLE MISCELANIOUS STYLE
I would like to go directly to the USER STYLES as I copied all preset styles I might use to the user drive, tweaked them and integrated them into a "tree" together with about 200 styles accumulated over a very long time
The same of course applies to songs. When I on TYROS click one of the I – IV SONG BUTTONs labeled the way I want them to act they go directly to important often used song pages.
On Genos when I press SONG it goes to a page that for me is useless. I must then make another click to arrive at my song tree
BALLAD SONGS COUNTRY & SHUFFLE SONGS
COMBO SWING SONGS LATIN SONGS
BIG BAND SWING SONGS WALZ SONGS
ROCK & BLUES SONGS MARCHES
DIXIELAND SONGS MISCELLANIOUS SONGS
So IMHO also choosing a song is easier in Tyros
Off course the assignable buttons, as the sliders and buttons on Genos are a great incentive to switch to Genos, but unlike those who claim they cannot find anything that could be improved on Genos I feel once we can have a button taking us to the mixer page – you needed far more steps for that on Tyros – it would be great if we could assign button A to the Style mixer, B to the 1-8 song mixer and C to the 9 – 16 mixer page and not have to go to the screen for that.
Cheers
Kaarlo
In summary, you'd like additional options for the assignable buttons. That's a reasonable enhancement request to send to Yamaha.
Fred
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Hi Bachus,
Yes, you can modify OTS settings, including voices and effects, press "Memory" then the OTS button, and save the changed style as a new user style in the User or USB1 storage area.
The following video explains it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjS6uW-YCCs
Thanks,
Paul
I am sorry Paul, that was not my question, how to save an OTS setting with a style
Bachus I believe it is easier to create some registrations banks with just some favorite OTS voices and nothing else saved in there (no styles and anything else,just voices and their effects).
It is easy to find them this way and you don't have to change the style you working on or playing.
Furthermore, you got 10 OTS settings to choose at once without having to open another file.
This was what i meant.. saving a single voice setup...
Was hoping there was a way to do this witouth using registrations..
But then on the T5 i had a horde of registration maps with just soundsettings..
What got me spoiled a little was the pa4x, where you can save these voice setups as keyboardsets
And easilly recall them..
Personally, i think a voice setup, is even more importat to save then a single user voice, i am a huge fan of layering sounds...
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This was what i meant.. saving a single voice setup...
Was hoping there was a way to do this witouth using registrations..
But then on the T5 i had a horde of registration maps with just soundsettings..
What got me spoiled a little was the pa4x, where you can save these voice setups as keyboardsets
And easilly recall them..
Personally, i think a voice setup, is even more importat to save then a single user voice, i am a huge fan of layering sounds...
Bachus,
I understand your point. I have seen the keyboard sets on the PA series, which present something that formerly has been called "combinations" or "multis". They can be called anytime from separate keys leaving all other settings as they are.
I think that the Yamaha way to do this is to use registrations which only contain the keyboard settings. This is nearly the same. But I understand that the handling is a little different. By loading another registration from another folder we loose the context from what has been before.
Uli
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Pino, I apologize if my comments were misunderstood due to a lack of clarity on my part. I was specifically addressing the claim you said your dealer had made as to why there are no iPad apps for editing styles, because I was questioning whether his reasoning is supported by the facts: (a) Yamaha MusicSoft hasn't put a stop to all the third-party style-editing programs for PC; and (b) Yamaha includes a Style Creator feature on their best-selling arranger workstations. So it seems to me that your dealer's claim that it's because Yamaha MusicSoft wants to sell styles (i.e., wants to force customers to buy styles from them) doesn't hold water.
I wasn't commenting about your desire for changes to the onboard Style Creator feature, and/or an iPad app for this purpose. To be frank, I'm not too familiar with the existing Style Creator feature, since none of the models I own have it, so for me anything would be an improvement over what I have now, which is nothing.
As far as removing parts of a style-- Intro II, Intro III, etc.-- I know that Jorgen's Style ReMixer program can do that easily.
But to get back to the issue of iPad apps, it might be that part of the reason we don't see more of those is due to the way that Apple controls the App Store-- it's not like on the PC where programmers can easily create their own programs for others to install and use, because (as far as I know) iPad apps must be installed through the App Store. Perhaps Yamaha has some kind of agreement with Apple that any apps which are specific to Yamaha keyboards must come from Yamaha themselves, or must at least be approved by Yamaha? There are certainly third-party apps which can be used with Yamaha keyboards-- e.g., for song lists, MIDI control, etc.-- but those apps can be used with many different brands of keyboards, not just Yamaha.
I suppose the only way to find out is for someone to write an app for editing Yamaha styles and submit it for publication in the App Store to see if Apple allows it or not-- and if they do not, what reason they give as to why not.
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Hello Kaarlo,
I got into the habit of creating registrations along with Third party styles a long time ago and have stuck to that system through out. I would chose a song I wanted to play and then I would make a folder up in which I saved the style I wanted to use and Multi pads Plus the registration. I then selected the Registration plus style and Multi pads from this folder and then resaved to the Registration bank thus creating the link. I then re-saved the registration bank. Now all was in tack. I then built up my gig set list this way. I have been able to transfer these setting to every keyboard I have had since Tyros 1. Needless to say they all work perfectly in Genos.
Was told by Yamaha right from the start of using Hard Drives in keyboards Never to Partition them as they would not work properly.
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I suppose the only way to find out is for someone to write an app for editing Yamaha styles and submit it for publication in the App Store to see if Apple allows it or not-- and if they do not, what reason they give as to why not.
Hi Michael and folks --
Michael, I always enjoy your posts.
I think part of the issue is the way Yamaha addresses third party development. Yamaha does not take an open source approach where it publishes a open format specifications or API. An open spec/API is a commitment to support the spec/API and limits flexibility to change the spec/API whenever necessary. I've been here with this kind of decision with a software product and the commitment has to be weighed very carefully.
On the Yamaha Synth forum, Phil (Bad Mister) indicated that Yamaha will work with third parties in a one-to-one relationship. That's why the Motif/Montage is supported so well by the John Melas tool suite. If someone is a serious third party developer, they may contact Yamaha directly and build the relationship.
I'm an open source, open spec kind of guy, myself. However, I do understand the one-to-one partnership model and have seen business decisions go that way, too.
Why Yamaha doesn't develop and roll out more tablet-based apps? Probably due to their own resource limitations. Yamaha software development is not as huge as people might believe.
Hope this adds to our understanding -- pj
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Most likely Yamaha does not improve the style creator or supply apps for this because it would take development and they do not see it as significantly driving TOTL arranger sales.
I have delved quite deep into the style creator in the past, and understand its limitations and I think we all know that their own developers must have much better tools than they make available to us. But I imagine they feel that to make these available would be to sell off the family jewels. I have to agree that from their perspective they appear to be right, because they continue to lead the market.
Mike
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Michael, no apology needed,
I always read your very informative posts,
Regards
Pino
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This is what I’ve said for a long, long time, I hope I am not shot down again,
I am an arranger keyboard player/performer, I need good quality styles to do my work with good song intros and endings, you may say there are 1,000 of styles out there but the fact is there isn’t,
These styles have just a small edit to the original Yamaha style and unusable or need so much work to edit that it’s not worth the hassle, mostly a waste of time.
I do edit all the styles that I use, wouldn’t it be nice to be able to cut an intro from a midi file, sort out the tracks and just plant it onto the front of an existing Yamaha style without having to use 2 or 3 different 3rd party apps and then spend half a day tweaking.
Re: Yamaha resources,
Surely if a small time guy in Poland can turn out a reasonably good bit of style editing software called StyleMagic for just $63. then how much resources would it have taken the massive Yamaha, owner of Cubase software and makers of iPad apps and a multitude of musical instruments, to turn out an even better bit of software, there’s more to it than just resources.
There must be something else holding them back that they have not updated their on-board “Style Creator’ in the past 20 years, when the new Genos appeared, I really did think that they would have follows up with 2 or 3 iPad apps for editing voices and styles, but nothing to date.
So, I’m still thinking that Yamaha want us to buy their styles and packs rather than edit our own.
Some good news, the new Yammex module is ready for shipping in the next 2 weeks, that gives PSR players new voices as good as Genos, Klaus from V3 Sounds recons that they will upload ‘you tube’ videos next week,
Look forward to that, :)
Regards
Pino
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I tend to agree with you there Pino - I was initially surprised that there was no official Yamaha software for creating styles.
A couple of years ago I played around building a small utility to read XML files that described a style (using a schema I just made up), and output an.sty file. It was based on the very useful information provided by Jorgen on the file format. I didn't get too far before being distracted but it did work for creating a simple style. So it's possible to build style creation software without too much effort.
I suspect Yamaha just don't want to be buried under a huge pile of feature requests, or to have to maintain compatibility across different models which have different voices / effects available.
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Hi everyone,
I must have missed something here. After struggling a bit like with every thing that is a bit different, the style creator on Genos to me seems an improvement over TYROS. Maybe I missed that, but can you on Tyros change a flute to a baritone sax in a Style. Is there this page where you can alter the range in which the style voice is reproduced ? The style creator is very important because often you do want to change the instruments. Like for instance when the style is a piano rag time. I do not want the bass to be a bass, I want it to be a piano. That can be done, the octave changed to suit the song and the guitar removed as I have not seen a video showing Falts Waller with a guitar player. But that of course are minor alterations, not creating a style.
Cheers
Kaarlo
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Kaarlo
All that you mentions in your post are just minor edits and can be done in a few minutes on the existing on-board ‘style creator’, then save the style in a different name to your user bank,
eg, BigBandBallad to BigBandBallad2, you just need to take a few minutes to study it.
Make the styles YOUR styles, time well spent,
Regards
Pino
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Keep in mind that very few individuals have the skill or ability to create any style from scratch. I have done this, it is very, very time consuming and the results are usually marginal at best.
Now, contrary to what was stated previously, there are literally thousands of excellent styles available on this site. Granted, some are just modified styles from Yamaha, but there are many others from Korg, Roland, and other manufacturers, and many are song specific with the correct intros and endings, have fantastic OTS voices and excellent multi-pads.
I have spent more than 3 decades on stage performing with these styles, both original and modified styles, and both I and my audiences have never been disappointed with what Yamaha has offered. Insofar as sound differences between the Tyros and Genos, while they may be subtle to some, I found some of the new voices to be absolutely incredible based upon what I have heard listening to demos from both pro and amateur providers.
That said, there are a small number of individuals on this site who love to tinker with styles and voices using various forms of software, and that's just fine. I applaud them for their efforts. For the most part, the vast majority of our forum members just want to play their keyboards and enjoy the beautiful music they are capable of producing.
From my perspective, there is no better sounding keyboard on the market today than Yamaha's Genos - NONE! Yamaha has provided me with the total entertainment package for decades, and at an excellent price. While the Genos is somewhat expensive, it's still within the budget of most full-time entertainers.
If there are individuals here that cannot find high quality styles that are song specific on this site, I suggest they are not looking hard enough.
Good luck,
Gary 8)
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Yamaha sales have not appeared to suffer due to the style creation feature, so if you were Yamaha, why would you devote resources to it?
I think this issue is quite simple, its just not high on Yamaha's agenda, and that will not change no matter how many times a few people on forum's raise it. It will change only if Yamaha see that it affects overall hardware sales, and this is not that likely, because there are simply not enough buyers to whom this is a deal breaker to shift the needle.
Mike
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Re: Yamaha resources,
Surely if a small time guy in Poland can turn out a reasonably good bit of style editing software called StyleMagic for just $63. then how much resources would it have taken the massive Yamaha, owner of Cubase software and makers of iPad apps and a multitude of musical instruments, to turn out an even better bit of software, there’s more to it than just resources...
... So, I’m still thinking that Yamaha want us to buy their styles and packs rather than edit our own...
Regards
Pino
It's more than resources... it's a matter of return on investment. It is not possible to just load a MIDI file and turn it into a style Intro. StyleMagic is your best bet. But it requires us to rearrange the MIDI channels to match the style channels format, then convert the MIDI to CMaj7 scale, add an Intro Marker, then convert the MIDI to a style... save the Intro to disk, load your style you want to modify; delete the Intro you want to replace... then Import your new Intro created from the MIDI file.
There is NO software code that can perform those operations, it has to be done manually. I speak from my own experience of creating styles from MIDI files and modifying dozens of others. These days I mostly build new styles on the keyboard using Style Creator Assembly. But many style Main Sections I create from scratch or copy from Multi Pads and convert to a style first so I can copy the style PART into my custom style using Style Creator Assembly.
No short cuts!
:(
Joe H
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Keep in mind that very few individuals have the skill or ability to create any style from scratch. I have done this, it is very, very time consuming and the results are usually marginal at best.
Amen to that. I created styles starting with DJX-II patterns:
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/free-djx-ii-styles-for-psr/
And Motif/MOX Performances:
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/motif-styles-for-your-arranger/
Even starting with that source material, it is a lot of work both technical and musical.
All the best -- pj
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Kaarlo
All that you mentions in your post are just minor edits and can be done in a few minutes on the existing on-board ‘style creator’, then save the style in a different name to your user bank,
eg, BigBandBallad to BigBandBallad2, you just need to take a few minutes to study it.
Make the styles YOUR styles, time well spent,
Regards
Pino
That is exactly how I believe it is, I was just wondering whether I was wrong feeling the Genos Style creator is better than the Tyros version of it. So what I meant is: some here have written YAMAHA has not improved the style creator in years, was I wrong feeling they actually did?
Cheers
Kaarlo
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Kaarlos, I look a the style creator like an old Volkswagen Beetle - you really don't need to add anything to something that has a proven track record. While it takes a bit of work to effectively learn all the ins and outs of Style Creator, it is an excellent, onboard program that can do just about anything you wish with any style, especially when used in conjunction with some of the other, onboard features.
Good luck,
Gary 8)