PSR Tutorial Forum
Yamaha Keyboards (4 Boards) => Yamaha Keyboards - General => Topic started by: konaboy32 on January 02, 2024, 11:44:06 AM
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don't mean to be morbid or disrespectful but what is the market for arranger keyboards when us old folks are gone?
is the Genos2 the last traditional arranger as we know it?
a new type of arranger is needed to attract the younger generation, with ballroom, entertainer and schlager styles replaced with modern DJ and EDM styles, with focus on beat making, live looping, sampling, synthesis and pattern based clip recording.
some kind of cross between a drum machine, groovebox, workstation synth, daw and arranger.
otherwise I see no long-term future for arranger keyboards...?
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It has been mentioned before: there's unlimited supply of older people :)
Bogdan
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The biggest shock young people get in life, is thinking that they will never grow old.
I remember 2023 as though it was only last year!! ;)
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of course, we all grow old.
when the young generation reach old age, they will buy arrangers in order to play the same music as the old folks play today.
that's what you're saying?
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Yes.
Maybe not exactly the same music we play (and like). But truth is, if some song/music is good, then it doesn't matter how old it is.
Bogdan
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Well my Grand Daughters who are in there twenties like the same type of music I do and love songs from the shows. I think there will always be keyboards needed for people who want to learn to play nice music for them selves.
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a new type of arranger is needed to attract the younger generation, with ballroom, entertainer and schlager styles replaced with modern DJ and EDM styles, with focus on beat making, live looping, sampling, synthesis and pattern based clip recording.
some kind of cross between a drum machine, groovebox, workstation synth, daw and arranger.
I'm sure the OP means the current crop of old people. Younger folks have different musical tastes, and different ways of making music. When those younger folks are in our age group, they won't want our styles, and probably not our methods. Arranger keyboards will have to change with the times or die.
As large as the 'older' demographic group is, there will be businesses who will fill the need. It may not be all or any of the current manufacturers, and they probably won't call them arrangers.
It's like SUV's. We had those when I was a kid. Only we called them 'Station Wagons'. ;D
Happy New Year!
Craig
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Yes Eileen, good music is timeless.
Of course as times change, we tend to adapt instruments and/or rhythm of older music to our taste... but that just proves, that original song is good and will be remembered.
For example, the music "Recuerdos de la Alhambra" composed by Francisco Tárrega in year 1899:
1899: Original interpretation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-5weyHVC2U)
1984: Mike Oldfield interpretation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rxb2uXitMtQ)
2023: my interpretation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLTcAN1Bw7U) :)
@Lefty
Who would imagine that someone would today play 100+ years old music? Still, it happens -and will continue to happen with next generation.
Bogdan
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Physical ability is not the only thing that changes with age …taste and preferences also change, and that includes musical taste. I can pretty well guarantee that the 70 year olds of the future will not be playing hip hop when they get to old age, they will be playing Andrew Lloyd Webber, Jerome Kern, Cole Porter, great songs of the 50s and 60s …and whatever real composers come along meantime, ….same as us. My children migrated to this kind of music long before they got to their 50s, and I already see my older grandchildren in their early 30s moving this way. The last song I played on my keyboard yesterday was ‘all the things you are’ which was written by Jerome Kern long before I was born. People are still playing Mozart from the 18th century.
Traditional musical instruments like pianos have been around for centuries, but people still buy and play them, and they are not playing rap and hip hop on them. Yes, there will be new kinds of instruments, in fact they already exist to some extent. But it’s not the older generation who buy them. Older people buy arrangers in later life, when they have time and money, often because they wish they learned to play earlier.
The arranger fits that demographic.
The original self accompaniment organs emerged more than 60 years ago, and was aimed at playing exactly the same kind of music we are playing on arrangers today. The arranger has advanced the technology, made it cheaper, more available … but the basic reason for buying is unchanged.
Mike
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When you think about it ,it takes quite a bit of skill to play an arranger keyboard as there is so much going on.
Most musicians play a single instrument and only have one part in a band
Old Farts Rule :) :)
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I'm sure the OP means the current crop of old people. Younger folks have different musical tastes, and different ways of making music. When those younger folks are in our age group, they won't want our styles, and probably not our methods. Arranger keyboards will have to change with the times or die.
As large as the 'older' demographic group is, there will be businesses who will fill the need. It may not be all or any of the current manufacturers, and they probably won't call them arrangers.
It's like SUV's. We had those when I was a kid. Only we called them 'Station Wagons'. ;D
Happy New Year!
Craig
thank you craig, this is what I mean and you expressed it much better than I.
And to the poster that thinks that the young musicians of today will suddenly start playing Andrew Lloyd Webber and Cole Porter when they reach old age... well thanks for the laugh! :D
there are no young musicians using arrangers to perform or produce modern music genres.
that's what needs to change otherwise arrangers are extinct in 10 years.
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@Lefty
Who would imagine that someone would today play 100+ years old music? Still, it happens -and will continue to happen with next generation.
I agree with you Bogdan. People will always play music from many eras. Some music will span generations.
What drives sales though, is what the mainstream of your target demographic wants to play, and the way they want to play it.
For instance, I live in a small city in Arizona. We have a very large population of 65 to 85 year old retirees, and a very active live music scene. When I got here 10 years ago, music groups were primarily playing 50's and 60's music. Now, the groups are playing 60's and 70's. Why? Cuz it's what folks want to hear; the music from their youth. Already the 60's are tapering off slowly, and we get some requests for 80's stuff. I hope I live long enough to get requests from the 2,000's. :)
Thanks,
Craig
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Craig, What you say is what happens. But it’s still listenable music. The junk gets dropped, and the very hummable music survives, adds to older stuff and becomes the new playlist. But it’s not so different, it’s all real music. There is an old saying among music pros .. if you can’t hum the tune it never lasts.
If it was not true then todays 50 year olds would only be playing punk. But they are not. My son in law was a big punk enthusiast in his teens, but his playlists now in his 50s are not so different from mine. Not the same songs exactly, but all listenable hummable music.
His son - my grandson - is a commercial producer of EDM and was a big time DJ in the past. His music studio is full of computers, daws , whatever and he is a whizz at manipulating it. It’s a job to him. But already in his 30s his personal playlists are largely very listenable music. He tells me EDM is not made to last, it’s to create a mood for now. You are twenty something, out to party, the huge speakers blast amazing rhythms and it’s infectious. But it’s not what you want when you are 30 something, sitting at home, with a glass of wine. And it’s not what he plays when he lifts his guitar, because you really can’t. You produce EDM, not play it.
The arranger may evolve into something a bit different, like the home organs evolved into arrangers, but there will always be easy play instruments, playing easy to play, easy to listen to music. There has been for over 200 years stretching back to simple accordions. The immense popularity of guitars was largely driven not by the amazing skills of a Jimmy Hendricks, but by how easily many of us could learn to strum along to simple songs.
Mike
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I would not be too worried about the imminent future of arranger keyboards. Keyboards as such have existed for several hundred years in different forms and arrangers are just one variety of advanced electronic instruments with a keyboard attached. But what I also believe is that arrangers in the shape of Tyros, Genos etc. will change dramatically in the coming years when AI is seriously introduced in the instrument industry. The sky is the limit. Maybe some day it will be possible for a keyboard - on the fly - to make improvisations, guess/suggest new chords or instruments - or even (by its own "imagination") create new songs. Or virtually recreate 100% true human singing with words, phrasing, tone etc.
To some extent we are already pretty close to be able to do it now.
The question is of course if these instruments will leave sufficient room for the individual musicians. I really hope so. They might even be able to improve the playing skills of the player.
Fantasy is flowing ...
Torben
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Another reason why we don’t need to worry about the future of arrangers ….the market drives everything. If they disappear it’s going to be because virtually no-one wants them. So if no-one wants them, why would disappearing be a concern? If people do want them then they will exist. That’s how markets work. So either way, not an issue.
Mike
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The arranger may evolve into something a bit different, like the home organs evolved into arrangers, but there will always be easy play instruments, playing easy to play, easy to listen to music.
Mike, I agree with this completely. As technology marches on, it will be easier and easier for solo musicians to play with accompaniment. Digital reproductions of instruments like piano, Rhodes, Wurly's, etc. are very, very good. I think soon, they will apply AI to arrangers. Then we can select a group we want to play with, and they will respond to your playing like real musicians would. No need for styles at all, in the current sense. Just play, like with real musicians.
EXCEPT, the drummer won't drink all your beer, and the bass player won't hit on your girlfriend. :)
Best Regards,
Craig
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A new type of arranger is needed to attract the younger generation, with ballroom, entertainer and schlager styles replaced with modern DJ and EDM styles, with focus on beat making, live looping, sampling, synthesis and pattern based clip recording.
Some kind of cross between a drum machine, groovebox, workstation synth, DAW and arranger.
Yamaha SEQTRAK. Probably this NAMM 2024: https://sandsoftwaresound.net/the-other-unicorn-in-the-room/
Arrangers will morph into something else. If there is money to be made... ;)
I see young folk with instruments get off the school bus every day. I'm sure some of them make beats, too, and maybe, some of them might play keys (willingly or unwillingly). GASP! :o ;D
Peace in 2024 -- pj
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Seen on the Internet:
“I thought getting old would take longer.”
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don't mean to be morbid or disrespectful but what is the market for arranger keyboards when us old folks are gone?
is the Genos2 the last traditional arranger as we know it?
a new type of arranger is needed to attract the younger generation, with ballroom, entertainer and schlager styles replaced with modern DJ and EDM styles, with focus on beat making, live looping, sampling, synthesis and pattern based clip recording.
some kind of cross between a drum machine, groovebox, workstation synth, daw and arranger.
otherwise I see no long-term future for arranger keyboards...?
Yamaha is smart... it will adapt to the next generation of keyboard players. I'm sure there will a lot more EDM styles, Voices, more arpeggios and new Live Control features using pedals. Also there are new contemporary audio playing surfaces that the young generation uses now.
Joe H
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Yamaha is smart... it will adapt to the next generation of keyboard players. I'm sure there will a lot more EDM styles, Voices, more arpeggios….
Joe, This sounds like the MODX/Montage synth category to me. Yamaha would eventually need to refine that synth interface to make the arp patterns, edm rhythms etc. a bit more user friendly to program.
Rich
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I'm sure the OP means the current crop of old people. Younger folks have different musical tastes, and different ways of making music. When those younger folks are in our age group, they won't want our styles…
So true. I predict arrangers as we know them will be gone in 10 years or so. I think the synth workstation, with improved rythm & pattern user interface, will be the instrument of choice for those in the younger generations who are not producing music using VST’s & DAW’s. Or as someone said above, perhaps an “AI Arranger” that resembles something totally different from today’s arrangers.
Rich
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Not a chance…you are completely misunderstanding what drives people to learn to play a musical instrument late in life. It’s not the nature of the music, it’s the satisfaction of actually playing a musical instrument. People will still want that. By the time they get round to buying an arranger, they will no longer be younger people. They will be older people just like us. Arrangers will evolve, but ten years is nothing. It’s more than ten years already since T4.
Mike
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mikf is absolutely right - yet again!
People will always want to just sit down and play an instrument. That's what the vast majority of arranger owners do and so it will always be. Heck, even though the home organ (grand-daddy of the keyboard, of course) market for new instruments is all but dead, there are lots of people buying used models, or getting them for free, and just playing them.
Most of my arranger students, young and old, are not playing the latest chart material, rap, hip-hop, R&B or EDM. They're playing material from the 'Great American Songbook', and its UK equivalent, plus songs from the 50s through to the 90s, and the occasional decent song from the 00s. Music from movies, shows and musicals, Classical music and so on. I had one teenager who just had to play at least one march, one big band and one Carpenters number in all of her high level keyboard exams! She still plays them to this day.
To gently correct one statement from a previous post. The first instrument with automatic accompaniment was the Hammond Model 727 'Piper Autochord', from 1970. The start of the 'arranger' and the beginning of the decline of the home organ. But if you wanted the first 'easy play' keyboard instrument, and it was marketed as such even back then, was the Hammond Model S1 Chord Organ, from 1954!
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The biggest shock young people get in life, is thinking that they will never grow old.
I remember 2023 as though it was only last year!! ;)
You get older, dought, but you are only so old as you feel and think. I am retired but apart of not been aible of doiing the things i did 40 years ago i stil feel young, spiriualy and mentaly, between 17 and 22, depending on the day lol.
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Yamaha is smart... it will adapt to the next generation of keyboard players. I'm sure there will a lot more EDM styles, Voices, more arpeggios and new Live Control features using pedals. Also there are new contemporary audio playing surfaces that the young generation uses now.
Joe H
What I'm saying is that Yamaha will adapt to the market demands. It is quite possible to create both EDM styles and Multi Pads. There just not a big demand for them now... but there might be in a few years. Easy Sounds has already produces expansion packs with synth Voices, and drum loops for EDM.
Joe H
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Of course Yamaha they will adapt, if there is money to be made. These very modern styles are available now, and maybe as you say more in the future because very useful for people who use the arranger to produce music.
But not so useful for just sit and play live. And as andyg points out that is still the main appeal of the arranger, and the styles are therefore mainly produced to suit the kind of music that people will play, and that is somewhat timeless, its not generational.
The music that suits sit and play is typically not date stamped, ....some comes from yesteryear, some much more recent. But it all has something in common.... it sounds good in live play, the tunes are hummable and the songs are familiar.
Here's a test for younger people -- ask them to hum the latest EDM hit. Then ask them to hum a Beatles song. Bet more can do the second than the first.
Mike
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Been buying Yamaha arrangers for years. Can’t recall all the model numbers. Only play “hummable” material. Never, once, used an EDM style, or anything remotely similar. The American Songbook suits me just fine. Hope Yamaha doesn’t forget us seniors.
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You nailed it Lefty,
They will not play the same tunes as we do, just for instance Blue Moon, most will have never heard it or even like it, there are many similar age songs, another one a song I like Chapel in the Moonlight
To be honest I don’t enjoy many of the newer songs, sometimes I have listened carefully to them to see what the problem is and perhaps to move forward with them but there is something that I don’t savvy, I hope you understand what I am saying
Adrian
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Music has to have a RHYTHM, a MELODY, be REPEATABLE and have good HARMONY, otherwise the noise dies.
Grabbing a $20 guitar, strumming three chords and squawking like a cut cat just does not live on.
That is why keyboards and old time "music" will live on for ever.
Sometimes the lyrics get changed but the melody lives on; such as "Aura Lee" now known as "Love Me Tender" (or well cooked ;))
At 85 I am toying with buying a Genos2! :o ::) ::)
Denn.
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I have always said that you should always be able to whistle a tune....... Ever try to "Whistle" rap or EDM ?
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Greetings!!
You know your getting old when you choose the 20sDanceSchlager style on your Genos2 and it isn't for a Charleston!!! -charley
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My theory of why we like the music that we do:
As we pass through puberty, our music sensors snap open. They stay open for about 20 years, and then they snap shut.
For me, that was late 1950s thru around 1980 — obviously the period when the best music ever was created! :D
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You are thinking of our region on the globe but other regions have other customs. One fact. Why is europe excluded of buying yamaha organs? I know many who would like to have a, lets say, stagea. Why? Because the needs and expectations are different between people around the world. For yamaha there is not enough interest to build up a network for organs in europe. The even make different onboard samples and styles to coop with the needs in different regions. So, as already said, there wil always be a need for arangers or easy to use instruments in future. With the modern technology it is no big deal to play in the needs at a certain time. Sinds many times korg has the posibility to totaly change the os and sounds of there keyboards, even the onboard sounds and styles. They wil always invent posibilities to create the need to buy instruments and other stuf. And in the event that it ends? Would not be our concern because we wil be no more there.
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As I'm reading this and many other threads, I have to wonder why when we reach a certain age, we feel the need to disrespect new/modern music. I remember the response of 'adults' to the Beatles when they came over to the U.S. on tour. "That isn't music" "It's just noise" "It's satan's music". Those were things I remember being said. Now the Beatles are elevator music. Go Figure....
I suspect it's always been this way. When you look at the many periods in Classical music, (like Baroque, Romantic, Modern Classical) I'll bet as they moved between periods, the oldsters were yelling "That's NOT music!!!". ;D
Best Regards,
Craig
P.S. A challenge. Listen to 'Havana' by Camila Cabello. Havana is a pop/salsa song 6 or 7 years old, so is reasonably modern. It is just 3 chords, as one poster derided. Tell me this song doesn't have the 3 legs of music, rhythm, harmony, and melody. Hummable, and danceable. The singing does not sound like a screeching cat. I chose this song to challenge folks with because it has one verse that is rap.
In my opinion, this is certainly music, in fact, great music. Just not OUR music. Understand that rap/hiphop is just one genre of music. In our era we had Acid Rock, Heavy Metal, etc. Not everyone likes everything, and not all of it survives long.
When the folks who were born in 2001 are in their 70's, this is what they'll play, not Abba tunes. What will they play it on? I have no idea.
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When the folks who were born in 2001 are in their 70's, this is what they'll play, not Abba tunes.
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-I'm not sure that's true. That way of thinking comes from music that you like.. because you have grown with particular music genre at certain period of time.
There is wider picture which Mike already mentioned: as we get older, our music preferences change -and that's especially true for music lovers (what musicians are).
When I was teenager (early 70's), we were partying on Suzy Quatro, Alvin Stardust, T.Rex, The Sweeet, etc. But as I got older, I wanted more from music and so I started listening Pink Floyd, David Bowie, etc. And after a while, i discovered blues and Classical music. You see the pattern? -the older I was, the older music I started to enjoy.
And similar happened to some of my friends -except to those who were stuck in 70's :D
It was mentioned here: if we can't humm (or whistle) the melody, then it's **** (you fill-in) music -or at least not suitable for entertainigg other people (which I kinda agree on).
But there's another thing that we forget: younger (even mid-age) generation doesn't know how to dance! They jump and stretch along some electronic pop music, but that's all there is. If we (keyboard player) would like to entertain them, then we better forget beautiful rhythm of latin music and it can happen that even waltz is too much.
Those of you, who play for elder communities sure know that older people start dancing imediatelly if music is right (entertainment music is dance music) -because they learned basic dancing in their youth.
What I'm saying is, how to entertain people who are embarrassed to dance? That's the challenge that future keyboard player will have.
Hmm... maybe I'm off-topic... ;D
Bogdan
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Why is europe excluded of buying yamaha organs?
Basically one reason. Economics.
I've had this discussion a few times up at Yamaha HQ, and indeed with Kawai back in the day. 1) The market for new organs in the UK and, to a slightly lesser extent, Continental Europe, is tiny. They might sell a few dozen of each model and that may well be optimistic. That brings us to 2) EU electronics regulations would require a separate production line to be set up and, given the low number of units required, the costs of that would outweigh their profit.
There are a couple of other reasons like the need to revoice and re-spec instruments for 'western' ears and preferences, but to be honest, I think that's less of an issue than it once was.
It's not just Europe, of course. Yamaha's domestic and Asian markets are the only really viable ones left, being rather different to elsewhere in the world, including the USA, for example. And colleagues have told me that even those 'home' markets are very tough these days.
Yamaha are very pragmatic about Tarotrade supplying D-Deck and Stagea models, but obviously it's not officially supported with any back-up.
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Lefty wrote: "When the folks who were born in 2001 are in their 70's, this is what they'll play, not Abba tunes."
-I'm not sure that's true. That way of thinking comes from music that you like.. because you have grown with particular music genre at certain period of time.
Hi Bogdan, that is exactly my point. My age group here in Arizona play and listen to the music from our youth. Creedence, Beatles, Stones, Dylan, Abba, Almond Bros., etc. The younger generations coming after us won't be different. They will listen to and play the tunes they grew up with.
So in 2074, when BillyBob is 73, he probably won't be listening to the Beatles, or the Stones, he'll be playing and listening to Camilla playing "Havana". And he'll be saying, "The crap the kids listen to today ain't music"!!!! :D
Respectfully,
Craig
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hi Craig,
I know what you mean.. what I was saying is, that now (being older) I listen to music that I never listened in my youth. And similar will probably happen to BillyBob. I don't say that everyone at age above 80 will start listening Classical music only :)
We had good and bad music in past and the same is true today. So why we say "nowadays music is not music"? Because there's a difference if music/song is composed or manufactured. And sadly, nowadays majority of music is manufactured.. tomorrow maybe it will be "generated" (by AI)... But one is for sure: bad music is quickly forgotten.
Greetings,
Bogdan
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I play six retirement homes on a weekly, rotational basis. Paying close attention to their requests, it’s clear to me what they like, prefer, etc.. Elvis, of course, Jerry Lee, Johnny Cash, Fats Domino, Beatles, James Taylor, Carole King, Stevie Wonder, Billy Joel, CCR, Jim Croce, John Denver, Bob Dylan and others. Also, a healthy dose of Patsy Cline, George Jones, Waylon, Willie, and Merle. Tunes from those artists could easily cover a gig for the current ages of retired persons in my area. This music era is easily hummable and well-suited to the styles in my arranger. I’m glad to be a part of that generation.
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I was in my forties, even fifties not my youth, when I discovered Billie Joel. The thing is that good music from yesteryear survives, but more good music comes along and adds to it. Meanwhile the junk, and even hits that can’t be easily hummed get forgotten.
It so happens that the 60s were rich in the kind of songs that are memorable, easy to sing along, great to dance to. So of course they are requested. Similarly the 30s and 40s are rich in the kind music that is great for jazz players, solo cabaret artists and easy listening. Go along to right kind of gig and these will pop up regardless of the age of the musicians or attendees. But you might also get requests for songs from the Lion King, or Lloyd Weber, or Maria Carey, good playable music with a much more recent pedigree.
But I’ll bet you don’t get many requests for bands of the same era like The Grateful Dead, Black Sabbath., or long forgotten junk like ‘Pied Purple People Eater’, or ‘Looking for Henry Lee’. You see it’s not just about when,…. it’s what fits the occasion, what is easily remembered, sung along, danced to.
When the current 20 year olds move into care homes, I’m not sure what they will be requesting, but I can guarantee it won’t be EDM or hip hop. I know when my 50 year old children get into their later years they will still be requesting a lot of the great songs by Lennon McCartney, Neil Diamond, Neil Sedaka….all from my generation, not theirs.
You don’t just learn taste in music from what you listen to as a teen, you also get it from what your parents, grandparents are listening to. Sometimes you even get it from what your children are listening to….what’s not to like about Beyoncé, Alicia Keys, Madonna…….
Mike
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Dang! I am old! This list suits me perfectly😀😀😀
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But I’ll bet you don’t get many requests for bands of the same era like The Grateful Dead, Black Sabbath., or long forgotten junk like ‘Pied Purple People Eater’, or ‘Looking for Henry Lee’.
If I end up in a nursing home, they are going to get a lot of requests for the Grateful Dead. :D
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Hahahha.. good one Michael ;D ;D
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hi Craig,
I know what you mean.. what I was saying is, that now (being older) I listen to music that I never listened in my youth. And similar will probably happen to BillyBob. I don't say that everyone at age above 80 will start listening Classical music only :)
Poor BillyBob. Relegated to listening to only Classical..... :D
Best Regards,
Craig
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I'm taking my arrangers with me when I go. ::)
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I will listen to anything that has a nice melody with a nice chord progression Dose not matter what year or who did it. These are the songs that tend to last and not the thump thump ones with almost obscene lyrics.
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I will listen to anything that has a nice melody with a nice chord pression. Dose not matter what year or who did it. These are the songs that tend to last and not the thump thump ones with almost obscene lyrics.
Chord "pression"?. That is a new one for me!.Poor chords, they are sometimes used and abused!
Did you mean "progression" by any chance? ;)
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Slip of the fingers. Now edited.
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I can pretty well guarantee that the 70 year olds of the future will not be playing hip hop when they get to old age, they will be playing Andrew Lloyd Webber, Jerome Kern, Cole Porter, great songs of the 50s and 60s …and whatever real composers come along meantime, ….same as us.
I 300% disagree
As some previous members said, there are good and bad music/songs in all styles from all periods. And only these good ones remain known several years later.
Perhaps there are more and more music (300 years ago, there were not a lot of composers, today quite everyone can use a computer to make some composition). So there are, in number, more and more bad songs.
What seems to be "generic", is the fact that old people are more interested by music that were regularly played during their own young years (nostalgia)
Currently it's 80s (and the best ones from previous periods). There are bad 80's music and good ones ...
In ten years, it will be 90s (and the best ones from all previous periods) and so on….
Best songs from Rap, hip hop, waltz, tango, bossa-nova, rock’n roll, new wave, and techno will still be heard in the future.
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Agree with Eileen on melody and chord progression. On any unfamiliar song, that's what I key-in on. I focus on the bass line first. That helps in figuring out the progression, if I want to learn the tune.
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Actually if you review the styles in the Genos2 you can see the demographics being reflected already
Virtually NO new 'Dance' styles
BUT a big emphasis on the 1980's That's 40 years ago
You can be sure Yamaha know their market
Collecting stats from all over the world They know the age of their @Arranger customer base and create styles accordingly
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Agree with Eileen on melody and chord progression. On any unfamiliar song, that's what I key-in on. I focus on the bass line first. That helps in figuring out the progression, if I want to learn the tune.
There is no real melody on 7 nation army from white stripes…. Kashmir Led Zeppelin…. Interest is elsewhere. More the rhythm and global feeling….
BUT a big emphasis on the 1980's That's 40 years ago
Yes arranger market is globally for 50 and over. That does not mean it is sticked to people who listen to music from 1920 to 1969. It evolves.
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DITTO!
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Arrangers will be around for many years to come! Easy to play instruments are getting popular. Now we have wind synths, autoharps and keytars. "Real musicians" can frown all they want and call such instruments toys, but the fact is that a lot more people are getting into music and having fun with it. And that is the real purpose of music. To be creative is to get something good out of your life. The first time I sat down and played 4 keys on the arranger and sounded like a whole orchestra was a magic moment. Long Live The Autocomp Keyboards :)
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I’m a singer/guitarist converted to a singer/arranger keyboardist. It only took me less than a year with an arranger to reach the same level as a guitarist that took me more than 10 years to reach.
I have had no piano training whatsoever but my experience with the guitar and music theory have helped me to learn how to use left hand chord/right hand melody to accompany my singing with the auto accompaniment feature.
As a solo singer/guitarist I have to add various pedals and drum machines to make the sound fuller but the arranger just add that full band effect more.
I’m sure there are and will be many more guitarists who will discover the magic of an arranger and that’ll add many more new blood to the arranger world of music.
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Arrangers will be around for many years to come! Easy to play instruments are getting popular. Now we have wind synths, autoharps and keytars. "Real musicians" can frown all they want and call such instruments toys, but the fact is that a lot more people are getting into music and having fun with it. And that is the real purpose of music. To be creative is to get something good out of your life. The first time I sat down and played 4 keys on the arranger and sounded like a whole orchestra was a magic moment. Long Live The Autocomp Keyboards :)
Thank You Toril and Keystar!
Your posts were like a huge breath of fresh air rushing through all the forums this morning.
So many posts recently, dissecting every possible feature of keyboards. So many criticisms of, and moans about Yamaha, as to what they could, and should have done.
I was starting to wonder if anybody actually sat down and PLAYED their keyboards.
Whatever your age, playing the instrument is surely the greatest pleasure for you and those who hear you play. I think so anyway.
Arrangers, and the older players are here to stay.... Believe it!
Keith
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I believe it Keith,
I am coming up to 88 years and bye my keyboards to play. I really get sick and tired of all the moaning about what Yamaha should and should not do. I notice they never post songs so we can hear them playing.
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Well, I believe Yamaha needs to put out their next SX 61 key machine ASAP, please. ;D
My PSR-S950 needs a rest. I just replaced the power pack and my #8 Registration button is on the blink. I have already had my pitch wheel replaced about 4 years ago. If you are really playing your keyboard, in about ten years it’s worn out.
I have been spending even more time on the keyboard since the G2 styles came out. I have converted over 150 of them so far. I still have about 70 more left to go. I have been putting this S950 keyboard of mine to doing some serious work lately. ;)
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I am coming up to 88 years and bye my keyboards to play. I really get sick and tired of all the moaning about what Yamaha should and should not do. I notice they never post songs so we can hear them playing.
Well, the very best medicine and / or method to avoid get sick of others posts, is not to read them. ;D
If this 'moaning' and users wishes and remarks about the products encourage Yamaha to do develope, make new features, changes or / and bugfixes, it's worth every single word!
When it comes to publish recordings or songs, I was in fact not aware of that is a kind of criteria to be hold before anyones posts get accepted as valued in debates. :o
If we're 88 or 98 and happy with things as they are, it's great. But it also should be quite OK if we have some whises and / or complaints as well. 8)
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Arrangers, and the older players are here to stay.... Believe it!
Yes, even older arrangers seem to work well, but all that sudden they get outdated and faulty, and both electronics or other parts, also service providers seems to be hard to find.
The question is how long developements and pruduction of new arrangers as we know it will carry on. It's first and foremost about number of sales and companies income.
Another question is if those younger ones who grow up to be the 'old ones' within some years is as many that the sales will make it profitable to carry on, or if new technology and possibilities has taken completely over. ???
Those of us that's the old ones now will never get to know.
But, personally I'm pretty sure that 'old faschion' acustic instruments such as piano, guitars, violins, brass, drums and whatever will keep the music alive as long as there is people in the world. :)
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I really get sick and tired of all the moaning about what Yamaha should and should not do.
And I think it's uselless anyway. After many years, I have come to believe that Yamaha doesn't listen too much to what its customers say. Maybe they listen to what their elite demonstrators say. In any case, they are very successful with how they do it for many years. There is a famous quote attributed to Henry Ford: “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” :)
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Famous quote attributed to Henry Ford: “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” :)
There's a lot of truth to this. Manufacturers need to lead their customers. The danger is getting too far out front and leaving them baffled. This was always a challenge in product planning.
Some people reacted to audio styles like they were the spawn of the devil. Could be they were ahead of their time? Might seem them again someday. Yamaha has a bunch of patents for Ketron-like styles...
All the best -- pj
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I’m sure Yamaha pay attention to what customers say, but that doesn’t mean they rush off and implement it. Everything is filtered by their business strategy. If people make suggestions that are ‘like to have’ but make no business sense, they shouldn’t be surprised if they never see the light of day. And I’m afraid most suggestions I see on the forum likely fall into that category.
Mike
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There's a lot of truth to this. Manufacturers need to lead their customers. The danger is getting too far out front and leaving them baffled. This was always a challenge in product planning.
Some people reacted to audio styles like they were the spawn of the devil. Could be they were ahead of their time? Might seem them again someday. Yamaha has a bunch of patents for Ketron-like styles...
All the best -- pj
The biggest flaws with that (other than limited tempo ranges, which also affects the Ketrons, but nobody seems to be complaining there) were
-not easy to edit (true); could be alleviated by including the closest fit midi style drums so people have the option. They've already converted a best fit midi style for some of them, like Nature Hip Hop, 80's Rock Anthem.
-Can't record while playing with an audio style
-true with midi (since there isn't drum midi data), but could be alleviated by allowing access of the .aus file and synch playback after recording
-true with PSR's via audio, since they only have 2 channels of audio. *but* all they'd have to do is upgrade the PSR's to 4 channel audio (like the Genos/Tyros) so that they can play back the audio style wav drums, while simultaneously recording audio through the remaining tracks)
But boy, some of the best sounding styles were Audio styles. 80'sRockAnthem, Industrial Chill, Tango Flamenco...
Mark
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Yes Gunner Jonny,
Wishes are a different matter but when people start ranting about how Yamaha don't listen and rip people off just because they have not added what they wanted then I call this moaning and also insulting members who have bought the new product and hinting we have been ripped of. The thing about posting some Music is so we can see what they are trying to do. Yamaha do not come onto forums so don't hear all this. They have there own site called Ideal scale which they do read.
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Please tell me How do you play "Rap" or "Hip Hop" on an arranger?
Maybe turn off all the voices in the styles except for the thumping drum and put a paperweight on the lower part of the keyboard?
Denn.
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Tell me how you play rap on a piano, or violin, or bagpipes. Does that make them a ‘failure’ as a musical instrument?
Horses for courses.
Mike
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Please tell me How do you play "Rap" or "Hip Hop" on an arranger?
Maybe turn off all the voices in the styles except for the thumping drum and put a paperweight on the lower part of the keyboard?
Denn.
You play the beat on the keyboard and SAY THE WORDS, just like you would any other song. 8)
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Reminds me of a very funny ad for a brand of tea where a firm of removal men (played by chimpanzees) let go of a piano that rockets down the stairs.
The strapline was.
Eh Dad....Do you know the piano's on my foot?
To which, the gaffer replies...
You Hum it Son... I'll play it! 🤣
Keith.
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Yes I remember that well. Great advert.
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Guy in a bar approaches the entertainer and says, ‘can you play Danny Boy’. And the entertainer says it’s not something I normally play but I’ll give it a go. About half way thru he notices that the guy is in tears, so he stops and says ‘ I can’t help but notice that this song seems to be very emotional for you, are you Irish?’. And the guy says ‘no, I’m a musician!’
Mike
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Reminds me of a very funny ad for a brand of tea where a firm of removal men (played by chimpanzees) let go of a piano that rockets down the stairs.
Humans have done this (https://youtu.be/iy7YuAj3xd8?si=AHbfjW4_zfh0LDPQ) too… :D