PSR Tutorial Forum
PSR Keyboards (11 Boards) => PSR-SX900/SX700/SX600 => Topic started by: dlepera on April 03, 2024, 06:58:39 PM
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Hello.
I am sorry that this subject comes up a little to often but it seems that I may still not have a very clear understanding of how this arranger software handles a simple thing like a search function.
Considering past posts on how these USBs behave, should and should not be created, populated, managed, ie: moving files from one folder to the other, not put loads and loads of file folders, files on a usb, don't fire up many usbs at a time, etc...
However for some time now I have been taking somethings as normal behavior but I think it is time to get a really good understanding of what is going on with my keyboard(SX700).
Simple. I have a 4gb USB in Fats32 and only 3 style files, 1 folder with a 108 mp3 files utilizing only 534mb and the rest of the USB is free.
Issue Scenario:
Power up my keyboard with only this one USB and user memory is pretty clean. Go to menu and check my keyboard storage result. User is 821.64mb Free and Usb1 is 3.21gb free. All good I say so far.
I exit back to the style function and can view the MP3 folder name and I see my 3 styles which I can select and play with no issues. Still all looks good.
Now I want to just do the simple search test which is what I have been annoyed with for a long time when searching styles:
I select the USB1 while in the style search function , tap on USB1 , the screen populates with what is on my USB1(a folder and 3 styles). I now select the hour glass for the search. In this case the only styles on the USB are two styles with "Lady" as the first name and one with "Beatle".
This is where things go strange. I get a message on the upper right of the screen that says "The number of search results has exceeded the limit" and then I get 10 pages of style names which are not even in my User or USB Folder. In fact if I search something that has never existed on any of my previous USB and never searched, like the name "JUNK" I get a blank result, if I search for something like "Good" which have style names that I searched on my previous USBs it populates the list. Then of course if I try to load I get the famous message "File not found, or file name is in appropriate" which is correct as the loaded USB or the User memory does not have that file to load.
So the bottom line is where are all these names coming from? Does the keyboard have all my previous searches and file names loaded in some part of memory that needs to be refeshed, flushed, etc.. Kind of like a bad registry entry or cache on a computer??
Note: I have rebooted and and reset the keyboard, left this usb connected with the keyboard on for hours, but the results are the same.
I am almost ready to factory reset this thing but I will have lots of work after to put in the latest upgrade, then reload my Expansion packs, etc. So looking to avoid this activity if possible. All other functions of the keyboard work as they should, only this search is my issue. And by the way it does the same for Registration searches.
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
dom
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Hi dom,
sources of problems lay always in the past, not at present time. If I remember well, you mentioned some time ago, that you have more than 25000 styles in your keyboard. Maybe that some part of memory where index files are stored, was overflown and somehow never cleaned/refreshed afterwards. Try to ask Yamaha service how to clean the whole memory so that nothing can stay there. But I am afraid that full factory reset is the first step :-(
Lacko
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The SX series keyboards have a known bug that affects all the search functions. Affected keyboards will exhibit the symptoms you describe when ANY search is performed, not just styles.
I worked with second level Yamaha support for a couple of months on my SX900. Nothing we did would make the search functions work again. Yamaha finally sent me a new keyboard under warranty. Since Yamaha doesn't know what triggers this bug, I NEVER put any usb drives in this keyboard now. It won't be under warranty now, and who would want a keyboard without a working search function?
Apparently, Some keyboards are able to recover, some don't. Mine didn't.
Yamaha has known about this bug for years now. I suspect that it doesn't affect enough users to go to the expense of fixing it, so don't hold your breath for an update.
Best Regards,
Craig
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Gentlemen.
Appreciate the feedback. Don't like the response about the bug though. WOW!. That is rather a silly bug for such a basic and common software function.
Lacko your memory serves you correctly. Since then I have done some reductions on what is stored on external memory.
Craig I would assume that you did do the factory reset? If you did and that did not work, then I would say that it's not a software related issue as a complete factory reset of any device, wipes everything in volatile and only some parts of non-volatile storage. If there should be an area of non-volatile(non-writable storage) then the issue I would think resides in the resident storage device it's self which I think then the only solution is to replace the device, in your case the keyboard.
Please let me know if you did the factory reset and what result you got so that I can do mine and compare my results. Also if you have a contact name or phone number of the person that you dealt with, it might expedite things for me should I need to go your route. However, I would doubt that they would replace the keyboard which is 3yrs old but I do have extended warranty which I pay yearly on my keyboard for anything that should go wrong so maybe I might have to go that route.
PS: I noticed that I can format my USER storage. Going to do that first, curious will it knock out my Expansion Packs or is that in a different storage area of the keyboard?
I just read a post which talks about my expansion pack stored memory location as described by Chris. So I think I have my answer and will be formatting my USER storage area.
https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php?topic=56219.0
https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php?topic=56405.0
Many thanks for your feedback. Regards dom
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Something of note on this subject:
Everything that I have read on this forum about factory reset stating that if you do so, the instrument will be reset to what it was like out of the box is "WRONG".
There is one exception post where Chris stated that not everything will be reset, and that is correct.
I did enter the MENU2, selected UTILITY, then FACTORY RESET/BACKUP, checked off all 6 areas to be reset and selected the Factory Reset and replied "YES". The keyboard went into Executing state for 22.16 seconds.
Did this 12 times, yes 12 times and results were the same every time.
Then powered off the keyboard. Even went as far as unplugging it, then holding down the Power button for 20 seconds for the heck of it as that is what you do to your laptop to ensure a complete factory reset and memory flush(at least for Lenovo). Plugged the keyboard back in and noticed that NOT everything got reset as most people think. My Owner Name that I put on my Keyboard which is displayed during the power on cycle, the software version level is 1.11 and not sure if this the old or current. How stupid is that? Owner name not getting reset!!!! My God Yamaha, what are you guys thinking'. Perhaps I should give them a lesson in Assembler programming.
Tried the search and that did not get corrected. There has to be a file name list somewhere in resident memory of all previous searches that does not get flushed/reset. What a rude awakening!
What kind of software is this. Image if your cell phones used this silly factory reset logic?????
I had also contacted Yamaha Canada with this issue yesterday and there "Yamaha Support" is what I call an oxymoron. Some support when there tech tells you to do a soft reset and/or a factory reset and if that does not work it is an odd case and perhaps a technician needs to look at this. That is all he had to say. You folks in this forum seem to know more than the manufacture's technical support staff. Perhaps they should read through these forum posts and educate themselves before recommending and advising their customers on related questions and issues.
I am very frustrated with the behavior logic of Factory/Reset and not done with Yamaha Canada yet.
Anyway, will proceed to install the latest update on the keyboard, re-install the expansion packs and personalize this thing again.
I apologize if I sound like I am venting, but for the cost of this keyboard, this is really appalling!... I would hate if this happened to any Genos owner after paying your big bucks for these beautify instruments and Yamaha giving you the same response as me.
Good luck to all! dom
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Observation:
While trying to install my expansion packs I get a message saying ...Cannot execute quick installation, install with full installer (.ppi/cpi). What is this telling me... Note that I did do the "Restore Pre-Installed Expansion Contents" and that went ok. It loaded Africa, Europe, Latin America and Oriental and they work fine.
dom
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Hi Dom
I'm following your post with great interest, because I have 2x SX700's and I would also be pretty annoyed. read furious, if this situation arose.
Having had one keyboard recently replaced by Yamaha due to a recurring issue not related to your storage issue, I sympathise.
Only intervention by my dealer solved the problem. Yamaha themselves have admitted that they have 'no idea' what the actual cause is!
So I ask the question, well who is actually building and programming these keyboards these days? Has the manufacturing process become less stringent? Who do you get help from when Yamaha can't help?
Far from Venting, I think you're absolutely right to want answers. Being unable to COMPLETELY CLEAR the User memory is ludicrous.
I'm sure that if it started becoming an issue on their super dooper G2 somebody would soon take notice!
What part of the electronics holds this unwanted cache? Where on the board is it? Why can't that component be replaced?
If Yamaha don't have the answer then maybe a Sixth grade junior programmer can solve it? I can clear the cache on my tablet, my pc's and my phones, so why can't I clear it on a keyboard?
Is it that they just can't be bothered to have a simple Factory Reset that does what it should do? Amazing nonchalance by a major music instrument manufacturer manufacturer!
Are they even bothered... In which case they will sure as heck soon be losing customers.
Any of you guys who have NOT had a problem with your keyboards, don't think this can't happen to you, because as Dom has rightly illustrated, the Helpline guys at Yamaha, are actually pretty poor, and you too will start to get pretty hacked off after spending your hard earned, and not getting answers! You WILL I guarantee it!
I've grown up round all sorts of computers, as most of my generation including you have. I find today's simple "Oh well.. It can't be fixed so tough" attitude really infuriating!
The big smile when they take your cash is replaced by the 'Suck it up shrug' when things go wrong!
Not good enough. I hope you get, or find resolution.
Like I said, I think more than a few of us are watching this post with interest, because it is worrying.
Over to you Yamaha! You need to sort this out for your customers. Dom in particular!
Keith.
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Craig I would assume that you did do the factory reset? If you did and that did not work, then I would say that it's not a software related issue as a complete factory reset of any device, wipes everything in volatile and only some parts of non-volatile storage. If there should be an area of non-volatile(non-writable storage) then the issue I would think resides in the resident storage device it's self which I think then the only solution is to replace the device, in your case the keyboard.
Hi Dom,
Both Chris and Yamaha support suggested the factory reset. That was performed multiple times, along with many other tests Yamaha support suggested to try to get the keyboard to erase the indexes it dynamically creates and stores in non-volatile memory. None of these were successful. My keyboard was just 3 or 4 months old when this problem occurred, so it was under warranty when Yamaha replaced it.
(Dom, I'm considering non-volatile memory to be memory that is not affected by a power off event. So RAM as volatile memory, and hard disk or SSD as non-volatile memory. ROM is a different beast, and I'm fairly sure no indexes or user information are stored there, just the OS, and other low level utilities)
I've seen threads where people are hoping for an update to the SX series with new pianos, etc. I'd just be happy with bug fixes for the known bugs, so our keyboards would perform as advertised by Yamaha. Unfortunately, since Yamaha has been aware of this particular bug for at least 3 years, I don't believe a bug fix is forthcoming before this product reaches end of life.
Best of luck with this!
Craig
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Hello Gentlemen. Thanks again for your support.
Looks like this road is going to be a very interesting, least to say challenging. I will wait and see how Yamaha responds to my emails as there is an active case opened on this issue. May just be another sticky note on their wall and not given any traction, who knows. In the interim I will be making calls to Yamaha keyboard repair technicians to see if any of them have ever experienced or even resolved this particular issue. I just can't exercise my after market warranty options to find that after they handle my keyboard, their end result will be that they too could not fix the problem. Sometimes the only options we may have in life is to leave well enough alone and live with what we have rather than maybe making things worse by trying to fix something that may still have some functionality.
If I may ask, I did state that I was working to load my expansion packs and that is giving me an issue. I don't think it is related to this issue, but I don't understand why I am getting the message
"Cannot execute quick installation, install with full installer (.ppi/cpi)" I hope it's not another software bug with the keyboard? YEM seems very easy to use but I used it a while back to load the Packs and frankly I was luck that I managed to get things to work based on the info that I read on the form then. Now I am kind of stuck.
If anyone knows why I am getting this message I would appreciated any feedback. Maybe I should open another post on that subject, but then again could it be related to this one that I am having.
Frustration just compounds these days. I just hope that this one is just my brain software problem that with your help it can easily be resolved.
Regards....... dom
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Hello Gentlemen. Thanks again for your support. ...
If I may ask, I did state that I was working to load my expansion packs and that is giving me an issue. I don't think it is related to this issue, but I don't understand why I am getting the message
"Cannot execute quick installation, install with full installer (.ppi/cpi)" I hope it's not another software bug with the keyboard? YEM seems very easy to use but I used it a while back to load the Packs and frankly I was luck that I managed to get things to work based on the info that I read on the form then. Now I am kind of stuck.
If anyone knows why I am getting this message I would appreciated any feedback. ...
Hi Dom,
The trick is to manually change the File Type from .pqi/.cqi (Quick Installation) to .ppi/.cpi (Full Installation) when saving the Pack Install File. Also see this post:
>>> https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,67313.msg507662.html#msg507662
By the way, the Sample data of the Expansion Voices are stored in the Expansion Memory, i.e. not in the internal User drive. BUT all other content of the installed Expansion Packs (e.g.the Voice files that call uo the Expansion Voices, the Styles, Registration Bank files, Multi Pad Bank files that contain to the Packs is stored in the "Expansion" folder in the USER drive. This means, if you format the USER drive, you have to re-install all Expansion Packs.
Best regards,
Chris
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Hi Chris.
Bingo!. Worked like a charm. This time I did noticed YEM doing a lot more activity with the pack create and save once the extension was changed as you suggested.
If only my search issue was that simple.
Best regards! dom
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Hi Dlepera, this is from the research is a big problem that I had raised more than three years ago (February 2020) when I purchased my sx900 (observing this malfunction of the serch function). But I hadn't had any feedback from other users in the forum, I assume, for several reasons; 1) the keyboard had only recently come out and was yet to be discovered. 2) many users rightly believed, based on the past (Tyros, PSR and Genos), that keyboards carry out an automatic update of the USB index, that this update is influenced by the number of files stored on the stick for which it was necessary give it time. 3) Anyone who does not face this bug cannot understand the problem. 4) many don't use the search function. Now I'll tell you what happened to me 22 days after purchasing my SX900 in the midst of the Covid pandemic (I live in Italy/near Rome), with the total impossibility of Yamaha technical assistance. Playing with the favorites I memorized the maximum number possible and then I deleted them. I turn off the SX900 and the next time I restart it the boot doesn't complete, the keyboard remains on the Yamaha logo. I contact support and after a series of emails, they say that the motherboard must be replaced, but due to covid the time for the repair is unknown, I say no gentlemen after 22 days of life, the keyboard must be replaced and not repaired, it starts an unnerving correspondence until a firmware update comes out that "magically" brings the keyboard back to life (which didn't need any repairs, I was sure it was only a software problem). What I always thought was that the "O.S." was created for Genos and it has been adapted to the SX series, it is not a tailor-made dress, but cut out and sewn together, evidently with some patches here and there (especially the allocation memory, where the boot and probably the index storage also resides USB or whatever). In short, in my opinion, the favorites they occupied a part of the memory dedicated to boot, overwriting it and compromising the startup of the keyboard. The situation was then restored with the new firmware which put things back in place. A similar thing must have happened for the search function, a large number of files present on the USB compromised the function and this time either because the bug went unnoticed or because perhaps it is impossible to correct the problem with a new firmware , after 4 years the release of a new firmware for the SX series is unlikely to see the light of day also due to the few (?!) cases ascertained and reported to Yamaha. This is what I think and I'm almost certain that it is so... unfortunately two months ago I reported the problem again to Yamaha Italia, but 1) they didn't have the availability (?!) of an SX900 to check at the moment 2) until today I didn't hear anything else (they must have become unavailable lol). I have resigned myself, I am waiting for the heir to come out to give it back, hoping that the retailer does not agree with the problem of the search function. And let's face it, , the research managed it is, really, with your feet... greetings Pietro
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Hello Aquilanuno
Thank you for sharing your experience. Bottom line as you stated, because this issue only affects a few, little will be done to action a resolution. Although, in my eyes it is a simple software fix and this can all go away with a version software upgrade. As we are more and more realizing, everything is about the money and no longer is the focus on quality.
You know we are our own worst enemies!. Why, because today we don't fight back(not violence of course) but by boycotting, demonstrating our disappointment ensuring that manufactures feel the pinch one way or another. But we are just little flies that may never make an impact to get back to the days where "quality control" and customer satisfaction was the number 1 priority of manufactures. I can't speak for those that have keyboards prior to the Genos and SX but I see more used Genos and SX on the market for sale than those older ones. Maybe it's just me and my limited surfing skill, but judging from what I read on this forum the old seems to be out weighing the new when it comes to quality.
BTW I got a suggestion from a Korg tech who said that Korg on occasion has similar search issues and their resolution which worked every time was to open the keyboard and unplug everything connected to the mother board. Wait a while then connect things back and case closed. He has never had a chance to try it for a search on a Yamaha, but did get an SX900 with a buzz in the left speaker where the customer was told he needed a new mother board at 1/2 the cost of the keyboard. He took the approach of unplugging all the connectors from the mother board, waited 1 hours, plugged the pin connectors all back and the problem never came back. We can call it luck, a fluke, whatever and maybe we all need to start thinking outside the box these days as we never know what will work or will not work anymore.
Gone are the days of the old technicians that took pride in their skill and fixed rather than replaced.
I am hearing a lot of horror stories when talking to these keyboard technicians(call 6 so far today) and sorry to say the newer Yamahas are on the top of their list with motherboard issues. Don't quote me on this as I have no way of validating their claims, but, why would they lie?
I will keep you posted if and when I make any positive progress on this.
dom
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hi dom
Although I agree with you... The thing is, midrange keyboards are considered as mass product and only a small fraction of owners come to this forum. How to "boycot"? If 50 people coming here decide to do that, it wouldn't be even noticed by Yamaha that something is going on (thousands would still buy it).
And that's why I appreciate forums: I collect feedbacks and then I decide (for me personally) if I will boycot certain keyboard or not -and that's all we can do, I guess.
Bogdan
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Or you could get your salesperson to contact Yamaha on your behalf,
Mark
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Hi Mark, you read my mind.
Here in Markham, we don't have a big keyboard store, but in the USA there are some big Yamaha music stores. In fact there are some utube videos where Sweetwater demos with Yamaha reps so I think I am going to reach out to them for a contact name and go from there.
Now for an update on my keyboard. I got it all set up back to what it was before the factory reset. This time with only the expansion packs added and one USB with 3 styles, I decided to do a search on one of those styles and of course it populated all that old stuff on the list and did not find my selected style which I figure it would not.
I remember back some time ago I had asked a question in a post when the search was working and that was:
"when I add a new file style, midi, audio, regit, to my usb or user memory, why is the keyboard not finding it"
If my memory serves me correctly, the response was that I need to keep the keyboard on for a while and some magic would take place where a list will get refreshed and then I can find it in my search. I did that and it in fact worked as I did find the specific file name later in the search back then.
So, this time I decided to keep my keyboard on and just left things in the standard style screen function. Walked away for about 20 minutes(keyboard set to turn off after 30min of inactivity). When I came back there was a popup on my screen with the usual grey box look with this message:
"not enough space in the specific storage" I pressed ok of course to get out of the screen.
Very informative message right? No clue what specific storage it is referring too.
Could it be that perhaps the keyboard is trying to populate it's list with the new styles(that function may be working nice) but when it tries to add the file names to the list it can't because that area of storage is in fact full since the old list has not be flushed?
Just a thought, using my own trouble shooting logic here on the Root Cause to this problem:
1. Go into any function style, regit, midi, audio, and select anything that has not be searched for before
and even play it to ensure that it works and remembers it
2. Now do a search on something on the old list previously selected for that function...say style function
3. The search will default to what was selected in point #1 but of course not what was searched
3a. However it generates ***** The number of search results has exceeded limit *******
4. Keeping all parameters the same, I now search something totally new like "junk"
5. Keyboard goes into Executing mode and brings back a nul find. No exceeded limit message generated
6. So this tells me that the search executable function works
I am speculating that this area of storage that houses the search list is not handling "last recently used" logic properly. Based on what I stated earlier from that previous post to leave the keyboard on, I guess it attempts to update like a search directory list of new entries and perhaps refreshes as required. Now this update HITS A BRICK WALL /LIMIT with the max number of entries that can reside there and rather than drop off the LEAST recently used entry and allow for the new one it just stops. An hence the search issue.
So if I am on the right path here(????) I suspect that over time depending on what the size of this storage is and how many search entries this list can hold, each and everyone of our keyboards will hit this brick wall and end up like me. I hope NOT!!!!!.
This may be why I got hit so soon as I have populated my keyboard with 4 USBs at times and have kept many folders on them with thousands of files in sorted folders. While this can be a lesson learned now, I saw no Caviat in the Ref Manual stating that this practice should not be used unless I missed something. However, it does not absolve Yamaha from it's inability to address/work around this high threshold of search number limit. This is such simple program logic to correct if this is the case.
All I can say is "Yamaha if you are reading this step up to the plate and fix"
dom
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Hi Dom
Just following on from your latest post, I learned two things about arrangers over the past 20 years or so which might be worth sharing.
One is to NEVER use any kind of usb hub, whether powered or not.
The other is to keep the number of files on any USB sticks you use to an absolute minimum.
I currently have 8 USB style sticks on the go.
Easy Listening
Jazz/Cocktail Piano
Sax and Country
Midis
Playlists
Favourite Styles
Gig Folders
Using a 12" usb M/F flylead taped to my music rest, I can easily use the stick I want to according to what I want to play. Why they can't put the USB socket on the front of the keyboard escapes me. Just bad design.
I NEVER use Registrations I can't work them out.
I do have another very heavily populated USB stick (all mine are Sandisk) which has pretty well all my files on it, but that one never goes on the keyboard. Just too much on it. It's also backed up regularly to my pc AND to a further standalone SSD 1Tb slave drive.
It's basically my own system of file housekeeping.
I had a conversation recently with one of the guys at AC Hamilton here in the UK. It culminated in the replacement of my SX700. And it concerned styles from other keyboards, added to the keyboard.
The theory was.... If you play your keyboard out of the box, with the styles that come with it, all is ok... The keyboard is all happy! If you start adding styles from other keyboards, that's when the trouble starts.
Well that theory went straight out of the door after I sent them a 2019 clip from a store called BONNERS also in the UK.
Their demonstrator was playing a newly released SX900 which was completely mint. No added styles.
5 minutes into the clip the screen went nuts with the very problem I'd been having. He kept playing, and the fault kept reccurring.
But he never once acknowledged it! Neither did Yamaha.
Further down the line, Yamaha said they hadn't encountered the issue which clearly was untrue.
So I think there needs to be much more openness from Yamaha about sorting out these sort of issues.
CRAIG'S POST in this thread says it all to me.
Quote :
I've seen threads where people are hoping for an update to the SX series with new pianos, etc. I'd just be happy with bug fixes for the known bugs, so our keyboards would perform as advertised by Yamaha. Unfortunately, since Yamaha has been aware of this particular bug for at least 3 years, I don't believe a bug fix is forthcoming before this product reaches end of life.
It's very poor business practice to not deal with problems.
As I previously wrote, I know many of you reading this will never have a problem with your nice new keyboards, but step back a little and see how, frankly, these issues are getting brushed under the rug.... It's not right.
Keith.
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Hi dom,
did you try that Korg technician advise to unplug all connectors inside keyboard? Or maybe remove and after a while reinsert backup battery if it is there any?
Lacko
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Hi Lacko
I don't think the current crop of Yamaha arrangers have any sort of backup batteries? You're probably thinking like pc CMOS ones.
And does anyone have a Service /Stripdown Manual for SX keyboards to even know how to open the keyboard to remove the motherboard connectors?
(Obviously only once the warranty expires).
Seems like a very unsatisfactory situation!
Sorry, but why on earth should customers be putting up with this? It's reflecting very badly on Yamaha as a brand. Look out you G2 owners... It can happen to you too.
Keith
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Hi Keith,
there are some videos about disassembling Yamaha SX keyboards, like this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7mmaXsuPAs, but warranty is then another question. It is just for the case that Yamaha technicians cannot help you, what looks like very probable situation with this problem.
Lacko
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Hello Lacko
I have considered that, but as Keith stated there is no strip down manual, nor would I would I want to screw something up and then regret it. I do have extended warranty that I pay yearly and just found out that software issues are not under warranty. I wounder why? This instrument warranty company must know what we are finding out, so EVERYTHING on mine except software issues are covered to the point that they will replace the keyboard if necessary.
My take speculative take on this whole thing is that Yamaha is seeing too many older keyboards like the Tyros and it's predecessors that are still running like a charm after so long that they can not afford to keep building robust keyboards. Since material science has advanced so much these days it is kind of hard to produce inferior material quality breakdown, so one place to hide "built in obsolescence" would be in software and GUI interface capabilities. As we know software not only can render the device a nuisance to own to the point that most people just want to replace it because of the inconvenience, but also trigger an internal hardware software disconnect to the point that cost to repair these days forces us to buy new. For those that can afford new or just want to keep up with the latest and greatest, this is a moot point. For those of us that just want to save to buy something nice, enjoyable, and with hope that it can last a long time this sort of issue is kind of a let down.
I am waiting to see what Yamaha has to say next week if they don't decide to brush this whole thing off.
dom
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hi dom
PSR-SX900/700 service manual is circulating on internet and if you're interested I can send it to you. But to benefit from it, certain electronic knowledge is required, though.
As can be seen on Youtube, disassembling and assembling the keyboard is relative simple. I did that (greased the keybed) and I had no problems at all. However, if you don't feel confident, then just don't do it.
Anyway, your issue is purely software based and so there's no point to open the keyboard (looking inside won't help).
What amazes me about Yamaha arrangers is the fact, that "full factory reset" (as from the box state) simply doesn't exist. That would obviously solve your problem (I say "your", because I don't use search function at all).
Bogdan
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Hi Bogdan
Appreciate the offer of the manual. Sure I would like to see it. The more we learn the better it is. If it is simple I might just for the heck of it open it and unpin everything on the mother board. May do nothing but the way I see it "nothing ventured, nothing gained".
You know, I still can't figure out why they can use the term "factory reset" when really all they provide is "fuzzy reset". And weather or not a function is used, if it is part and parcel of the package then it should work.
It's just tooo bad that these keyboards are pricey else I would love to test my theory of how this search list is managed and see if I can get it to hit the brick wall of the max search limit. I know how to test it now and I know that once I got that message my search stopped. If I could prove this well, then all the keyboards using the software in my SX700 and understanding that it is the same in the SX900 and Genos, might inevitably end up in the same state. You would be the exception of course since you do not use the search facility.
Thanks for the offer. dom
dom
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Looking at the service manual, there is no battery. Persistent settings are stored in non-volatile flash memory.
Recent Yamaha arrangers have a "Stand-by/ON" switch. That means electricity is still flowing to the keyboard in the "Stand-by" state. You can completely remove power by unplugging the keyboard.
There is no need to disassemble the arranger in order to remove power, etc. Please don't do this...
-- pj
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I would be more comfortable working through the existing software interface and functions for factory reset.
There are two ways to perform a so-called "Factory Reset". Method number 1 is described on page 98 of the SX900/SX700 Owner's Manual. In stand-by (so-called "off"), hold the right-most key and turn power ON while holding the key down.
Method number 2 is performed through the Utility Menu described starting on page 129 of the SX900/SX700 Reference Manual. There is a TAB called "Factory Reset/Backup". You can choose the specific kind of data to be initialized using the check boxes.
If all else fails, there is the "Storage" TAB in the Utility Menu. It's possible to format the USER drive. This is an extreme option and I have never used it. If you reformat the USER drive, it's fully your responsibility, not mine. I recommend discussing this option with Yamaha customer support before re-formatting.
Hope this info helps and please be careful -- pj
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Hello Lacko
I have considered that, but as Keith stated there is no strip down manual, nor would I would I want to screw something up and then regret it. I do have extended warranty that I pay yearly and just found out that software issues are not under warranty. I wounder why? This instrument warranty company must know what we are finding out, so EVERYTHING on mine except software issues are covered to the point that they will replace the keyboard if necessary.
Unfortunately, that's industry standard. I can tell you that's typical; manufacturer's warranty specifically are for materials and workmanship being faulty during the warranty period; nobody *blanket* covers software issues because of how unpredictable that can be. Not just keyboards; Sony PLaystations and Microsoft XBox's have been 'bricked' by updates, and thankfully Microsoft came up with a way to factory reset your console even in bricked mode. Sony requires it to be sent to them; if it's still under warranty, and they can fix it, then you're in luck. There have been cases where they simply couldn't unbrick it and send a refubrished one (better than nothing) but if it's out of warranty (which used to be only 90 days! from PS1 to PS3! PS5's are now 1 year, thankfully), then you get nothing :/
I'm not saying Yamaha shouldn't be better than the industry standard; they *should* be (a Genos costs a lot more than a console!).
The PSRsx600 actually had an update that bricked it! Which Yamaha removed the update causeing it (I think it was 1.06, and they rolled it back to 1.03); Fortunately they swapped out the bricked PSRsx600's
Mark
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What you say is right Mark, and everybody knows that companies sole aim at the end of the day is to be profitable.
But as users of their products, once TRUST in their products becomes questionable, then I think that's the beginning of a dangerous pattern.
All we quite reasonably expect is for a fully working, serviceable keyboard, and for faults to be dealt with transparently and fairly. Not swept under the mat.
Keith
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Hi PJ
I do heed your warning not to disassemble it and weather or not a device has a battery does not necessary mean that there is no power to the device. Motherboards contain many capacitors and these little guys do one thing, and that is to store power. You may recall back in the day TV's could not be left for garbage pickup unless the capacitor was discharged. Some of those big monsters gave a heck of a spark when discharged, and that was after days, weeks of sitting unplugged some may never discharge on their own. I have no idea how long it takes for a module/processor capacitor to discharge, but I would bet it may be days. A motherboard may contain multiple processors so one capacitor can handle voltage functionality for more than one module. I found this out the hard way as I work on cars as a hobby and sometimes have to tear down computer modules for my own or friends cars. Well I had a multi-chamber cluster module acting funky so I disassemble only part of it and unpinned it much the same as what I am thinking about this keyboard mother board. After I did what I needed to do, I reassemble everything and put it back in the car. well only solved half my issues. Further investigation revealed that I needed to unpin all modules and then short out specific contacts on the pins. That worked and saved $800ca. Maybe that is why my Lenovo PC reset using a pin in the bottom pin hole(manufacture discloses this) got my PC back to a true factory reset and never had a problem since. There other option is to remove the battery(those with external batteries) and hold the power button down for 10+ seconds. This is there soft version of factory reset I think.
So back to the keyboard, as the technician suggested, maybe he knows that unpinning everything may be a way to discharge those capacitors unless he has a little trade secrete on what pins to really cross for a total voltage discharge of the entire motherboard. He did say that he can not manipulate any software so with Yamaha it could be possible that this area of affected storage may not be affected and I pay money without getting further ahead. I might just decide to go for that and let the pro do the work. Worse case, he assumes responsibility for any unforeseen issues as a result of the teardown.(non software related of coruse).
Again, let me see what Yamaha Support comes back with. There is a case opened with them and a ref# so they can not avoid me, at least yet.
Also PJ, everything that you stated and what is in the manual for both soft and factory reset, formatting USER storage was done many times over and over hoping for some light at the end of the tunnel, left the keyboard unplugged for 12 hours then reformatted and did factory reset a bunch more times, but got nowhere. Hence I customized and reloaded everything back to what it was before all this activity. Had I know that this factory reset was as stupid as it is, I could have saved me a lot of time. Then again on the plus side it was a well needed refresher course.
Regards! dom
dom
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Hi Dom —
I just don’t want you to go through the effort and expense of taking the keyboard apart when the likely result is negative.
BTW, I both taught electronics and worked as a computer engineer. The capacitors are small and discharge rapidly. They are really intended to level out (regulate) the supply voltage and the time constant involved is minutes at most. They can’t really sustain computation or volatile memory. Registrations and other settings are stored in non-volatile flash memory, to be re-loaded at start-up. That’s why I think some data is corrupted in the flash memory.
Good luck! I’m very cautious about giving advice over the Web and don’t mean to offend anyone. :)
— pj
P.S. I took TVs apart as a kid and built vacuum tube amplifiers — getting many electrical shocks in the process. I don’t miss those days. :)
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Hi PJ.
Guess we have something in common. You engineered computers and I programmed in assembler back in days when IBM gave us those beautiful Microfiche and we were able to read our dumps, write code and fix software bugs ourselves. Those were the days and unfortunately they have come to an end.
I really do appreciate your advise and after educating me on the time constant being only minutes for these little guys, it makes sense that there will be no voltage sustainability in any of the board components after power down. So nothing to do with voltage discharge in this case. Data corruption can be the issue. If it was hardware this keyboard would be toast or have obvious failing components. Well you saved me money and time by not doing the teardown and can only hope now that Yamaha comes through for me with something.
The solution as I see it is very simple. Write a simple patch to clear/flash/format the memory and if the memory is not partitioned still do a complete format and then a complete software install with the updated code. No need to change the keyboard or motherboard. Logical solution right?
PS: anyone can give me advise, comments good or bad anytime and I'll always be willing to stand and be corrected. This is the only way to learn.
All the best! dom
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Hi dom,
just an idea: If you could get back on the USB stick couple of thousands of styles in the same folder structure like did months before, put that USB stick intg keyboard and delete all those files IN THE KEYBOARD, so that keyboard „would know, that he deleted them“, maybe also those index files will be deleted from its memory. Who knows, but it may be worth that time and effort.
Lacko
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hi dom, I have sent you a PM.
Bogdan
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HI Lacko.
Great idea and good point!. I did that for what was in USER memory before I formatted it but did not think to do that on the USB. Going to do that. First I will ensure that I have a new clone of the USB stick(PC copy activity) and then since I have used multiple sticks on this keyboard I will delete everything on all 4 of the ones that I have used and get back to you. Will be later today.
Bogdan, thanks.
dom
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Hi everyone. Lots of reading hear so your choice to read or have musical fun instead. I did say that I would have some information for you today and here it is.
Ok. Acting on Lacko’s great suggestion, I managed to set up a number of testing
Scenarios to see how this keyboard software reacts to them and hoping that maybe it could generate some kind of meaning error message which can be helpful in zeroing on perhaps the software logic area of the search instruction(s).
TEST #1
1. As you know had restored and customized my keyboard after the last rest.
2. Now I deleted everything in my USER area which was quick seconds in fact
3. Loaded my Live USB1 with all my files and did a “Select All” delete on the keyboard. Execution
time was 19 minutes for the delete. BTW did this multiple times and the execution time was
very consistent. And a power off was performed every time as well.
4. Disconnected the USB and connected a small 4gb 2.0 USB formatted on the keyboard of
course, then same with a 3.0 32gb and a 3.1 64gb USB, all with only three styles, three
midi,
three voices, three pads and three registration. Note that each USB had an error check
performed on them as well as all the USBs used for any of my previous tests. This is a good
practice to do all the time for any USB to ensure that they are always in good status.
5. Performed a search and non were retrieved. The old list kept coming up.
6. Disconnected the USB and got nothing popping up on the screen.
7. Appears that there is logic which first acknowledges the external device status and then reverts
to the storage list from the last refresh load.
8. So, no device loaded, the program does not do a Fetch to the stored list.
9. I plug the USB back in and is connected as USB1 and the list is populated on the screen again.
10. Yamaha how much more obvious can it be to find this area of code and work on this
logic??????
TEST #2
The next testing scenario was to Factory Rest. Did it 10 times for the heck of it as I had nothing better to do right? Testing out the logic consistency of this Factory Reset.
1. Powered off the keyboard. Even added a soft reset to the mix.
2. Performed the same testing sequence as described in points #4,5,6,9
3. Results were the same.
Next test was to take the clone of the the USB which had everything deleted in point #3 of my first test, populate it back to what it was by using the keyboard to do the copy from USB1(loaded clone) to USB2 empty formatted one. So using my keyboard to do a PC copy like function I would expect some kind of an error message if there was something wrong with a folder, file or even the USB. This is a data and external integrity check as well. Nope all copied well in 65 minutes of execution. So good there.
1. Powered off the keyboard
2. Did a soft reset
3. Inserted the newly populated USB and connected fine as USB1
4. Tapped on the screen USB1 so the keyboard would read It and it did as it went through it’s
“checking” process. All was normal there.
5. Did a search for a name and the old list keeps popping up and like before the whole list of 10
pages of styles in this case along with the max limit message populate my screen.
6. NOW, I start selecting the styles on the list and while some have redundant entries, I select
each one to see if I get the famous message related to fine file name not found, or filename is
inappropriate or the other one No USB flash drive is connected.
7. When I get to the one that does load, I DELETE it to a point that I deleted everything on my
list, all 100 entries
8. Entries were in fact deleted from the USB folders but the entry names on the list still remained.
9. This time if I try to select the name that was deleted it says no USB flash drive is connected.
So tells me that the actual search function is still working. Just using the old list which it
should not.
10. Note that my Registration folders all except one had 10-165 entries. Only one had 284. Style
folders are the only ones with hundreds of files in folders and those I got from the forum
populated with many files in folders and folders within folders. .
OBSERVATION:
During my last test, I did note some strange and interesting things.
1. Those redundant entries are there because them came from a different USB connected to the
keyboard with the same path name.
2. One of those in fact was never connected at the same time when I connected multiple USBs, so
it’s not in issue related to multiple USBs at this time from what I can deduce.
3. When I connected one of the 4 USBs that I have used, and select one of those redundant
entries that I spoke of previously, as soon as I connected the keyboard registered on
the list, it actually found the style in my case and brought me to the folder and page containing
the file and ready to play the style which it did.
4. Note that the keyboard recognized this USB connection as USB1.
5. Went through the deletion process again like I did before for everything on all my 4 USBs that
the keyboard did find and the end result was always the same.
6. So, no mater what I do that list can not be cleared, the list does have good data that can be
retrieved and utilized.
Conclusion :
1. My USBs with my data is good
2. Don’t have anything on there that the keyboard got upset with as it read, played and even
moved things around from USER to multiple USB storage
3. Connected 4 USBs at one time and everything was all usable as normal
4. Don’t suspect data corruption in the Internal Storage Memory where this list is residing
because if anything there was corrupted I could not have been able to select and load up the
styles or Registration
5. Note that each file type has it’s own list so there has to be some partitioning in this memory,
but somehow the brick wall limit is NOT affecting the VOICE, PAD, MINI or Audio
regardless of where the files reside, Expansion, User or USB. Very Very Interesting.
6. I did have issues before with all my searches and now it’s only STYLES and REGITS. So
something good has happened so far. Not sure what or why?
7. Also for those of you that use separate USBs for let's say Styles to keep things to a minimum I
would be curious to know what your results are if you put a style for example, call it Dom.sty
on say 2 or 3 of your USBs. Play it each time. Do a search and see if it works. Then Power
off/on the keyboard, however this time ensure that NO USB is connected. Then go into your
style function and search for Dom. See how many entries are on your list. I am assuming that
the list would contain multiple Dom styles(speculating again). And the only way to play them
would be to connect the respective USB for each separate Dom entry in your this. Only for
SX700. I don't want any other instrument because the SX900 and up although it is said that
the operating system is the same, to me it's NOT. SX900 has Chord Looper so obviously the
software logic can be different. Maybe the seach could be the same, don't know. This info will
help level set some things in my mind. Thanks in advance.
For those of you who do not understand why some programs can go flaky and why it can be a point of reluctance for that software to be fixed, keep this in mind.
1. If you write a program from scratch you will then see the whole picture and be able to build and
repair very easily. Generally the programs are not very big at the time of creation.
2. Now you want to add some additional controls or functionality to that program and it grows in
size, like writing a book.
3. During the evolution of this program you need to engage others to take what is existing and
add/append some new controls or functionality and this comes in the form of add program logic
code.
4. As the program grows and starts to become a monster size, there are many people/programmers
all doing their little part to help it evolve while integrating things as seamless as possible.
5. While this adds many layers of complexity in reality, each control and functionality can still for
the most part be identified and isolate. At that point you just dump that section of the program
logic using specialized tools(can be proprietary tools-Yamaha internal diagnostic software) and
put a fix which is generally some program lines of code, and once in place, you have your new
upgrade version.
6. For this reason I can't understand why Yamaha knows about this issue and can't just address it.
Not expensive as one would think in the scheme of things. I don't think I am in left field on this one.
Not sure what else to test. Been at it all day with many factory resets, and finally got this thing restored to how I want again.
All I have for you now. Hope that I have not confused anyone as my head is spinning on this subject.
My last comment is to YAMANA to step up to the plate and review how their software logic does the
"FETCH", "LOAD" and "STORE" of the data in this storage location. IT'S SIMPLE GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dom
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Hi Dom,
congratulations. Very detailed analysis, It is a pity that it didn't help you to solve this problem.
Do you think this problem arises when using styles or other files on USB stick only or is it tied with too many styles in any memory (e.g. also in USER)?
Lacko
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Hi guys
On Page 107 of the User manual are all the suggested 'rules' pertaining to the connection and disconnection of usb devices.
Now I know we all pop these drives in and out without a thought, and I also know that some of us use short flyleads to connect drives due to both the absolutely stupid location of the sockets and also to cut down on the risk of damaging the instruments socket/s.... But when Yamaha say Don't use Extension cables what are they telling us.
Obviously to use a hub, you'd almost certainly have a cable from usb port to hub?
I don't know.... It's pretty vague.. But may have some relevance.
Keith
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For what it’s worth, regarding short usb adapters! I used one on a laptop used for programming micro controllers, less wear to the laptops usb socket. I had all sorts of issues regarding programming? Strange errors in my code preventing the project to function correctly. It took me hours to sort out, the problem was down to the short usb extension lead, which although seemed to be satisfactory, was confined to the bin. I replaced it with a usb hub. Had no trouble since. Dive Master, you may have a valid point!
Regards Dupe
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Now That is interesting... Thanks Dupe.
Keith
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.... It took me hours to sort out, the problem was down to the short usb extension lead, which although seemed to be satisfactory, was confined to the bin. I replaced it with a usb hub. Had no trouble since....
Regards Dupe
Very interesting thank you. Quick question: powered usb hub or regular through type?
Regards, steve
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Hi.
All good points on these USBs and extension hubs. Steve you ask about powered or non powered hub. Only one thing to keep in mind and that is, can the device that you are connecting to supply enough power to the connected USB(s). Example can you connect a 1TB WD Passport directly to the keyboard even if you only have one file? I don't think it has enough to spin that drive. I know the example is a bit odd but does the manual say that you can't, does it say that you can't put a 128gb, or 64gb stick. I just read that it has to be a FAT32 device which we can an format on the PC and if the PC can't do it, then you plug it into the keyboard and do the format there. There are devices out there that right off the bat will not support 32gb if you know what I am saying.
Now if we continue to write this book, let me add some things that went through my mind since my last post.
I am more than positive that the data is not corrupted as all my files were usable from this populated list. So I have to assume one important thing here. Yamaha wants to sell new and get rid of the old as quickly as possible. In order to do that as stated previously, build in something to help obsolete the keyboards. They maybe realizing now that this has to be done with the newer stuff. Why because all those S9* and Tyros are not dying. Make us "have" to buy if we really had no intentions or can afford to upgrade to a new model.
SO, all these conversions(styles, voices, etc) from old to new will require at some point for us to use the search function maybe more than normal. Nice way then to reach the max file limit at some point in the life of the keyboard. Again my view on the limited knowledge of this industry and product. But my limited testing seems favor my thoughts.
Since there are little complaints at this time and perhaps good sales on the new stuff, this could be why Yamaha may not want to fix this bug. Think of this, why do many of us have old old laptops. Because, they still work and we can keep them working. Is it because the manufactures are backing us up. Don't think so. It's the OEMs that are making lots money by backing us up and providing hardware and resources to keep them working and everyone is happy. Why don't they do this with older Tablets? There is no demand and they are so tightly knit and on a motherboard that offers no expansions for improvement hence why some smart people can "jailbreak" and still use them past their application and software life cycle. But one thing, tables are more affordable while keyboards not so much.
In my case if they don't provide me a fix, I have two options, replace the motherboard at 1/2 the cost of the keyboard and in time will have the same issue or buy a "newer" one. I wouldn't even consider a used one now knowing this problem.
This is something that people should be considering. Resale when the time is right hoping that this search issue does not become more widely spread and a limiting selling point if the bug is not fixed. This is where Boghan's comment comes into play. If only 50 people complain nothing will get done.
People just don't want to get rid of the old and they are not breaking down like the manufacture may expect. But, they go on the other premise that we may keep them and buy new, because we are creatures of nature and like new things. If liking new things was the only reason, then why are previous styles, voices, pads being converted from old to run on the new??? Maybe for all the work put into registrations over time and updating those registration may be a big pain or nightmare I can appreciate that. But can't be the only reason.
In my case I grab what I can find because what I am finding is better than what is on my keyboard and for me it's convenience and appreciation for those great styles that people have put together and are better than what I can ever create myself. If it was not for the the styles on this forum, well my keyboard may not be enjoyed as it is today and there might not be any incentive for me to even play it as much. I upgraded from my PSR EW410 for this sole reason. This whole search issue may be trivial to many but for me, it is a very important feature of my keyboard.
I can't read music, in fact a simple thing like the metronome is useless to me. I play songs in their original keys and cords(thanks to utube turials and internet sites) and in their original tempo as well. Yes I create my own off shoots and they are lots of fun sometime even more than the originals. Hence the reason for so many style files on my USB(s). I have not read any limitations on style files per folder other than Regits which I am cautious with. The styles that I have purchased from this forum are the only ones that I use and have not changed any of their Root and sub-folders so have to assume that putting them all on my USBs is not an issue and has not been an issue until now 3 years later.
I think that I have said enough on this subject and need to consider pursuing Yamaha and looking for channels to raise awareness if they don't fix the bug.
I need to reach out to these big Music stores like Sweetwater, Boners, A&C Hamilton, Epianos, etc, as they seem to have Yamaha rep contacts judging from their product demonstrations on Utube and maybe they can raise this issue with their reps for traction with Yamaha and help push for a fix.?
The biggest influence comes from the consumer. This is why we all can be effective by working gathering in support of a common cause and let Yamaha know our product frustrations.
I rest my case for now and will give Yamaha a chance to make good on this issue hoping that their response this time is not one saying to take the keyboard to a technician without first fully listening to the customer, gather detailed documentation for the root cause analysis and then escalating the problem to the right area for further investigation.
dom
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@stevem, The one I use is an old Belkin 7 port USB -2 powered type. I only use it with my laptop for programming, and not with my SX900, which has two USB port sockets. Regards Dupe
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I’ve just noticed dom’s last post and to quote him “Yamaha wants to sell new and get rid of the old as quickly as possible. In order to do that as stated previously, build in something to help obsolete the keyboards. They maybe realizing now that this has to be done with the newer stuff. Why because all those S9* and Tyros are not dying. Make us "have" to buy if we really had no intensions or can afford to upgrade to a new model “
Personally, I know from first hand experience that the used market for keyboards is very active right know, especially with part exchange models offering great opportunities to snap up bargains on older models.
While built in obsolescence has made us aware throughout the electronics industry, especially within the domestic market, I would of thought reputable companies such as Yamaha, would encourage longevity for their products, as learning to play instruments for both the younger and older generations, can only be good. I started off with an old Casio keyboard, then moved onto Yamaha as my playing improved, being pleased with it’s performance, I part exchanged to an SX700 and recently to an SX900. My old keyboards have been sold onto new buyers, and so the cycle repeats. It's all good business.
I hope dom manages to resolve his problems with his keyboard, he’s certainly had support and suggestive ideas to go on from this forum. Kind regards Dupe.
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Hi All.
Goooooooooooooooooooooooood Neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeews:!!!
You will not believe this. After I posted my "rest my case" I could not get through Yamaha music Canada.
Decided to call Sweetwater in the USA and spoke with a very lovely individual Rob Heck Sales Engineer. Now he sure knows customer service. Listened, ensured he understood my issue, gave him the details on my post and he has pursued with his Yamaha rep who is making moves for Yamaha Japan to see the design flaw.
Now for the good news. Anyway went through all my testing notes again and noticed that there was still one thing that I did not consider and took for granted. That was to manipulate the software version it's self.
My software version is V1.11 which is current. So on a whim I asked myself what would happen if I back level my version to V1.10 and then upgrade to the current? Well nice of Yamaha that they only offer the most current V1.11 and this is a good thing.
So I installed the same version and it overlaid successfully.
My Search worked like a charm.
So time to break it again to check consistency. Glutton for punishment right.
I loaded a USB with one style folder containing 117,234 style files and 700 registration in one folder and did my search. Well the style search caused my issue this time and stopped rather quickly during the "checking" process then issued the brick wall message "number of search results has exceeded the limit and from that point on my search was rendered inoperable with only 10 pages of new search items in my list this
time.
Again I installed the same version and it resolved my issue. So we have a work-around, not a fix. But I am operational now. You can't image how happy I feel at this moment.
I want to reach out to all of you who have supported me through out this ordeal and thank you all for your support and understanding. Am I sounding like a Grammy Winner????
How about I say Thank You, Thank You!!
dom
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Excellent! Thanks for the workaround!
Mark
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Brilliant news Dom.
Really impressed and so glad that your problem is resolved.
Keith
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Hi Dom --
Glad you made significant progress and thanks!
-- pj
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Hello me again.
FYI. this time. I found a similar post back from April 7th 2023 (imagine that almost a year to the day), where an SX900 had a broken search issue opened by a former member JUKKASTHLM. Too bad that he can not be reached. Not sure what he ever did with his keyboard. I am sure my work around would have solved his issue as well.
We know the trigger for the search issue and it is so easy to miss it until you try your search. However it does not matter at that point because you could be in a problem state from that point on. Depending and I will explain why?
However I did do more testing today, trying to find different breaking points and interesting enough, I can get the keyboard to get upset and issue the "max limit" message and the darn thing recovered from it nicely.
Test.
1. Using my usual populated USB with my 25,000 styles, the one that I always have had and did a search for
for a name that I can find in many of my style folders.
2. Searched on "Lady"
3. Message was triggered saying "The number of search results has exceeded the limit" and populated 10
pages of entries with the word Lady in it. So now we know 100 entries can only be stored in storage.
4. I then EXIT, still in Style search entered a search for "Axel" and the darn thing worked very well and still
working fine. This returned 3 pages of entries with only 1 on the third page so a total of 21 entries. Nice.
5. All searches are fine for voices, pads, midi, audio regits and styles.
7. Did my test again with this time the 117,234 of styles and registration used in my previous testing and
this caused our famous search issue.
8. Refreshed the Version 1.11 software again reloaded the keyboard and all working fine.
9. The key trigger is NOT the thousands of files on a USB, but the max amount of files in a folder for styles. I
would like to find out what that number is. My point #3 just proved that. Unless there is instability within
the search logic. I also did this test twice for consistency and the results were identical.
10. Those ".-" files described in the post from the link below are not a problem as I have had those come up
on my searches for 3 years and read a post on them and since they were not affecting me, I just ignored
them/paged through them during my searches. No issue for me at least.
If you care to read that April 2023 SX900 post, it is also lengthy as well. See link below.
https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php?topic=65965.msg499539#msg499539
PS. Let me know if you have had enough of my testing scenarios and findings and I will keep them to my self. Nothing worse than boring people. I understand that there may be just an overload of information here and my nature has always been to Identify Root Cause, document it, get a permanent resolution and if that is not possible find a work around and communicate it. For me this is not done yet as I will try to pursue still the issue with Yamaha asking for a bug fix if possible.
I think there is now enough information to explain possible causes, level set some folder/file limitations, and best of all be able to use the work around. I give no guarantees that the work around will work on every keyboard but if the scenarios are the same as mine I really do not see why not.
Good Luck! dom
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Looks like my 900 styles will not cause
any this kind of problem. Good news, dom, thank you.
Lacko
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Lacko,
You can always do a style search on just the letter "A" and see what happens. You just might trip over one hundred files and hit the brick wall. 50/50 chance right? You have a work around now worse case. LOL... just watch out for that as 100 entries might catch you.
Regards! dom
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Thanks dom for your warning.
I'll try to avoid searching for letter „A“ only :-), but shall keep in mind your workaround anyway.
Have a nice day
Lacko
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I always keep my style folders to well under 250 as I believe this is the suggested amount.
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Goooooooooooooooooooooooood Neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeews:!!!
Hi Dom,
Excellent troubleshooting skills. Having a viable workaround will be invaluable for those who have "bricked" search functions on their SX keyboards. Since this is a recurring theme on this board, How could this workaround be made to be easily found?
Hopefully, this information will get to Yamaha's programming team, where they will program a fix for this bug. There are still quite a few outstanding bugs in the SX's Operating System. I'd sure like to see an update fixing them.
Craig
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Hello Eileen, this whole limit is something that has everyone's head spinning I am sure. Frankly if computers, tables, phones ,etc have no issues with file limits I really don't understand these higher end keyboards having limitations when Yamaha knows that the first thing that people will do is to populate our external storage devices. I can understand limitations on putting folder and files in the USER area but external storage. I would think that the solutions for that if they really thought it out would have been to cap the size of the external storage. Example my flag ship Double Din Kenwood car stereo unit years back would not accept anything greater than 4gb. Anything connected greater than that it would not recognize it. Easily done. In fact Yamaha does do a control on the external storage device format as you. It only supports Fats32.
Also the evolution of the Style packages offered by the forum and Style folders I see here all have nice naming structure, but the their size and the files in the folder may or may not adhere to the 250 files per folder. I have not opened each one to see. I assume coming from the forum I can just save them on to my USB and then plug into the keyboard. Hence why I have so many folder/files on it and the draw back to that is that over time I have redundancy and as we create registrations while in that state, it just add a monster layer of complexity if and when a clean up process needs to be done. I understand that now that I know how this Registration search logic kind of works and why I no longer touch folder names. That too is another to be another odd way of doing things, but then again the search engines in these things may not be like our Mac and Windows. Re-driving a search takes lots of overhead/processing cycles and these things are not designed to provide immediate instantaneous response? Odd again because my cell phone has 1.25TB of data, 1TB micro USB and 256 internal and the search speed is phenomenal. If Samsung can do it why not Yamaha?
If Yamaha really had issues with size then there should be a great big Warning page in the first few pages of the manual like there is for all the regulatory stuff. Let's face it, who reads the embedded stuff these days when the manuals are 1 mile long?
Guess all this good added recommendations and rules of thumb comes from experience from people like yourself and many that we see on this forum.
Craig as for your question and how to make this workaround easily found, I have no idea. I can only assume that the search title(s) in these posts could direct people to the problem and then the read does it.
Maybe I can open a new post with a very explicit title for an easier search, don't know?
Then there is google. Interesting enough the link to the other similar issue from last year April from Jukkasthlm, I did not get that from searching the form posts. I got it by searching google for similar issues with Yamaha keyboards and it came up. So this board seems to be structured to allow google to poke in and get forum info, don't know nor do I want to know how it works. My forte is not server based. I am a big iron Mainframe guy. Although today things with GUI interfaces are slowly changing.
So will leave that one to the forum moderators.
Regards. dom
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To make things easy to find I first of all make a folder called styles and within that I make sub folders and name them to the type of style I am saving ie. Ballads, Country, Big Band, Waltz's Swing and Jazz and so on. As I come across new styles I know i will use I save then in the right folder. Makes life much easier. Since owning Yamaha keyboards I have always worked this way and never had a problem.
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... Then there is google. Interesting enough the link to the other similar issue from last year April from Jukkasthlm, I did not get that from searching the forum posts. I got it by searching google for similar issues with Yamaha keyboards and it came up. So this board seems to be structured to allow google to poke in and get forum info, don't know nor do I want to know how it works. My forte is not server based. I am a big iron Mainframe guy. Although today things with GUI interfaces are slowly changing.
So will leave that one to the forum moderators.
Regards. dom
Hi Dom,
To search the entire forum, it is important that you are on the forum homepage (https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php), i.e. not in a subforum/board.
If you can't find what you're looking for by typing in the simple search box, I recommend using "Advanced Search":
>>> https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php?action=search;advanced;search=
Sometimes an additional Google search can also make sense (because you can use your favorite >>> Search Operators (https://rankmath.com/blog/google-search-operators/)). If you enter site:psrtutorial.com/forum in the Google search box, you will only get results from the forum. But with Google you will probably only get search results from forum areas that are accessible without a login.
Best regards,
Chris
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Hi Eileen.
I have seen your file structure and it is excellent. Hence the reason why I have never reorganized my USBs folders and sub folders. Initially only did that with my Registration entries, learned a hard lesson from Chris saying NOT to move them around and have never done that again. I just create new Registration folders now and keep the entries to the limit.
My weakness is this and perhaps why others like me are hitting this search issue.
When I got my arranger, I purchased PSR Style #14. Put the whole thing on on USB and created my registration folder(s) from everything there and also loaded the Yamaha free playlist as well. Then I ordered the Style #17 and put on the exact same USB, later ordered Style #18 and added that and the Christmas stuff. So you see my progression and how I am starting to hang myself?
I did this because I was not sure what all the new stuff would be on any of the packages I purchased and excited to see new I just starting creating new Registration with the new resources. Now you can see what is happening here. USB getting big, redundancy is introduced, and starting to create a point of NO to very hard return. At this point my registrations can be pulling things from any folder on the USB and I am kind of compelled to keep everything in tack. Hence my 25,000+ entries on USB. Again remember I have not reorganized anything. So if I tried to strip down my USB, then my Registrations could get all screwed up and I don't want this so I leave well enough alone. I know now that any new stuff will be segregated from this point on like I did with the MS-Disk stuff that was very nicely offered to us on this forum. The last Style package I purchased was Style #18 and loaded on my USB on January 17/24. No issues then until last week. Yes I did the limit messages and the "._" files popping up now and again. but accepted it as it only happened for some specific searches where these same name files were in multiple style packages but, the keyboard never had an issue with any searches. Our file structure mindset I guess is the same as what we see and do on our phones and laptops, etc.
I just employed that file structure understanding to this keyboard. The USB says Sandisk on it not Yamaha Keyboard(customer be aware), so it should behave like everything else I thought. Well we now know we are dealing with a totally different logic beast here.
Chris, got your feedback on the search. BTW I PMed you this morning with another question.
Status Update from Yamaha Canada. They finally got my emails stating my disappointment with their support service and they have stated that they gathered all my details and have forwarded every thing to Yamaha Corporation of Japan and will keep me updated.
Lets see what happens next.
Many Thanks. dom
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Hi Dleplera,
First of all, a huge thank you, I reinstalled the 1.11 firmware on my SX900 and "magically" the search function started working perfectly again. I did a test looking for the word Sting and it found two pages of styles (exclusively those present in the USB). After three years, thank you again for your tenacity which allowed us to solve this problem. With such an easy solution that I had never thought to consider. With esteem and immense gratitude Pietro
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[...] the search speed is phenomenal. If Samsung can do it why not Yamaha?
Because Samsung has strong competition but Yamaha not so? ::)
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Hello Pietro and Prego!
I am so glad that this workaround has restored some much needed functionality. I am just very surprised still at Yamaha, at least if a bug fix is not available or they do not want to provide a version upgrade, they could easily provide owners with a software workaround for some pit falls. Firmware is a different beast and generally screwed when that happens.
I have at least provided both the USA and Canadian reps finally with this issue description detailed along with my work around. Would be nice if they test things out, confirm my finding and maybe if they don't provide any further version upgrades, that they can at least make a recommendation to owners with this search issue(if they deem it viable). Then again $$$$ may come into play so they may just keep it a secret.
PS. I am asking anyone that is reading this post and may have a copy of any of the previous version updates before V1.11 to share it with me if possible. The reason for me would be to drop it into my SX700 and do some playing around with the search function to see for my own curiosity if this issue existed then(I know how to trigger it so it would be easy to check) or if it was introduced with the new versions V1.11 where rather than fix bugs they introduce some.
So enjoy your keyboard like you should have enjoyed 3 years ago. Would be nice if there was a way as it was asked previously in this form to communicate to others that may be in the same state that you have been.
Best regards to all!
dom
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Because Samsung has strong competition but Yamaha not so? ::)
Er, not quite.
Samsung makes world class smart phones that uses the latest tech, including memory formatting (I've moved some big files on and off of mine, so I believe it's NTFS, which allows for a maximum file size of 16 exabytes (16million TB) vs 4GB for FAT32 (what keyboards 2006 and later use); previously they were using FAT16, which unfortunately only allowed USB sticks up to 2GB in size to be used; which are now impossible to find.
Yamaha, as pjd has pointed out several times before, is trying to strike a balance between backwards compatibility and new features and products. So they (and all other keyboard manufactureres) seem to have settled on FAT32, which is likey one of the reasons why the G2 doesn't have any more storage space than the G1; the maximum file size in FAT32 being 4GB, means I'm already hitting the limit, even before hitting the 3GB expansion ram limit (I've had to trim out styles and registrations and simply copy them to user drive due to the size limits of FAT32)
I was really hoping they would jump to NTFS, which would have allowed for larger file sizes, but then nobody else has either (to my knowledge)
Although I should point out, once we get out of our pack rat phase (if ever), and begin to streamline the styles/registrations/multipads that was *actually* use, the search system should work. But yes, they should have assumed more.
Cell phones *need* to be fast, especially in file access, not least of which due to the large number of things we store there (photos, email, mp3s) but Yamaha designers (incorrectly) assumed most of us would have at most several thousand files. But *also*, Cell phone files are usually in the order of a few MB in size each, unless you install a game (often over 1GB each). So compounding the issue is the insane number of arranger files we can fit into a FAT32 USB (up to 2 TB) as most of those are around 50kb in size.
So for a standard 128GB cell phone, of which say 30GB is reserved for OS, let's say you have 2 or 3 games on there eating up 3GB (Instagram is almost 1 GB by itself!) and maybe apps totalling another 30GB
Meaning space for files on a cell phone, you'd have maybe 66 GB for user files, that's at *most* 16,000 files if you have no videos
I just looked at my cell phone, and there are just over 700 videos, and 10,000 photos, and 1125 mp3's. so just under 12,000 files for my phone to search
Take the same 128GB for your arranger, and yes, half of that will be eaten up by just a few files (like expansion packs, some of which are as large as 880mb!) but let's say you have roughly half of that left for styles, registrations, midi files, multipads, most of which are around 50kb, we could be searching among 1.3 million files.
That's over 100 times more files than your cell phone. Add that to the fact that the search speed on an arranger isn't as critical, and you have a good idea of the answer.
I just checked my own personal USB, of which I've only used 99GB, so not even full, and I only have 250,000 files on it, but that's still over 20 times more than my cell phone, and searches get exponentially slower with more search entries.
You bet your a** if Yamaha made a cell phone, the search would be *much* faster, and less hobbled.
Incidentally, I had the same search bug on our sx900, and on Genos (prior to OS 2.10? I forgot which update it was that it stopped overloading the searches). It has never shown up on Genos 2.
Mark
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I would think that the solutions for that if they really thought it out would have been to cap the size of the external storage. Example my flag ship Double Din Kenwood car stereo unit years back would not accept anything greater than 4gb. Anything connected greater than that it would not recognize it. Easily done. In fact Yamaha does do a control on the external storage device format as you. It only supports Fats32.
Well, yes:
mp3's on 4gb, at most that's ~1000 search entries for mp3's.
Fat 32 has a maximum 2TB; my own personal experience shows that if I filled a 2TB full of arranger files, it would probably contain in the order of 38 million files. (it doesn't scale directly from my 99gb because I wouldn't use 200 times the sample area, it's still the same expansion files regardless of how many styles and registrations I add)
My own stick only 30GB was small files like registrations, styles and midis, 62gb was expansion files. (the rest were Mp3's and wavs).
Even my PC struggles when I'm searching 10s of millions of files. And my cell phone search isn't that fast at 12 thousand files. We're asking an arranger to search many more times that; and if you use a cheaper USB stick (they all say USB3 compatible, but during a search it's the read speed that matters)
Mark
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[...] searches get exponentially slower with more search entries.
Well, that depends on the search algorithm used and the ability and willingness of the programmer. ;)
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True.
*Brute force* searches, get exponentially slower, and I can't see anyone coding anything significantly more complex than a linear search for a keyboard, but hey, I haven't typed a single line of code in over 20 years, so I'm hardly up to date!
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Hi Mark,
After everything is all said and done, while speed is always key and on demand for anything, in our case I don't think anyone is really concerned about the speed of an arranger search. I have had to sit as long as 45 seconds for mine a few times before it returned a search result. I knew my particular search would take some time because I connected a monster USB. However, because my search was for something that I knew would get searched and found, I was still happy. The bottom line is not speed but capability/functionality.
This under normal conditions would not affect any performer or average player if they stick to bare minimum.
But as you stated
"Although I should point out, once we get out of our pack rat phase (if ever), and begin to streamline the styles/registrations/multipads that was *actually* use, the search system should work. But yes, they should have assumed more."
this I don't think will ever happen in our life time. Just the nature of the beast. So Yamaha has to just realize this and maybe even step up to the plate and allow at least owner management of file manipulation and open the flood gate to the fact that searches are going to be huge so write software to make that happen. Your PC does not fail a search because your storage is too large does it.
We talk about Samsung Cell phones. Yes they are fast, very fast, but in order to keep up with demands, and work with their competitors to ensure profitability is widely spread to everyone, they too are now being challenged I think. To make room for all these wonderful apps and blue tooth devices, new games, how to you see them keeping up with the speeds that we have been used to all these years?
Here is how this layman see it. Faster chips mean more $$$ to produce. Demand for new device technology connectivity has to be accommodated by the manufacture so to keep costs containable and still up profitability, the easiest way to do it as I see it, is to first make cell phones with anything over 128gb much more expensive to deter buyers and get them to just buy the 128gb cell phone. Then remove the Micro USB capability which puts a burden on additional lag time for searches and navigation. Now move that to the cloud which has a multitude of benefits for other technology companies like Google Cloud, BOX, Samsung Cloud etc as well. They now make money off you, but the key item here I think, is that any slowdown for a file access accountability, will be transferred to the cloud service provider and not the Samsung's phone. Yes they will also tell you that they needed more space for device antennas, better camera's etc. No need to invest on faster chips now. Everyone gets a piece of the pie except for us.
We can go on and on with this subject, but the technology strategy is not one we can change. Just like Beta, VHS, Super/8MM cassettes , Turn tables, CD, DVD, Blue Ray . we are like fish on a hook and they know how to manipulate us. Way of life.
Your info is very good.
Thanks. dom
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Hi, I went back Sx900 to 1.05 and update to 1.11 but the search function keeps finding old styles, voices, even from the old USB and expansion packs, :( :( :(
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Both the SX700 and SX900 use an eMMC device for internal data storage (MTFC4GACAJON-1M). The data clock is 48MHz and the bus operates in 4-bit mode (a 4-bit nibble every clock cycle). So, the maximum transfer rate is 24MBytes/sec. Writing is slower because flash has slower write time.
eMMC is used instead of USB because the CPU chip -- AM4376BZDN100 at 1GHz -- has built-in eMMC interfaces. This keeps cost low.
Possibly this could have an effect on search speed because that's a fairly narrow pipe in terms of bandwidth.
Not enough caffeine yet to think this through... pj
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Hi Alka.
The first thing to do is wipe all files from your USER storage area. Then do a factory reset to clear anything left in there like your Packs. Power up and verify storage using your utility function in the menu and ensure storage area is clean. Then load in your Version 1.11. This will give you a clean starting point and then address the results. If you have that old version handy and care to share it with me, I would appreciate a copy of it so that I can play around.
PJ, your feedback is always appreciated. so hope that caffeine sets off all those sparks of great thoughts.
dom
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Hi Pj.
Did some searching on eMMC device for internal data storage (MTFC4GACAJON-1M) and you got me worried now. Is this the same memory in the TYROS and Genos? Are we confirming built-in obsolescence with the SX700 and SX900 of maybe 3-5 years?
I found that life expectancy is between three and five years and then I saw this:
"The typical lifespan of eMMC NAND flash memory in terms of read/write cycles is between 3,000 and 10,000 cycles. However, this can vary depending on a number of factors, including: The type of eMMC NAND flash memory used. The temperature at which the eMMC is operated."
This means that each flash cell can be written to and erased 3,000 times before it starts to fail???
Can you please shed some light on this find. Is the USER memory part of this and if so is every search or indexing added to the cycle? Tell me that I am in left field on this one please>>>>>
dom
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I found that life expectancy is between three and five years and then I saw this:
"The typical lifespan of eMMC NAND flash memory in terms of read/write cycles is between 3,000 and 10,000 cycles. However, this can vary depending on a number of factors, including: The type of eMMC NAND flash memory used. The temperature at which the eMMC is operated."
This means that each flash cell can be written to and erased 3,000 times before it starts to fail???
Hi Dom --
Yes, this is true. It is also a complicated subject about a known phenomenon.
Short answer: eMMC is used everywhere including cellphones, automobiles, etc. All NAND flash share this behavior. Developers know this and both hardware/software use techniques to prevent early cell (block) failure. This doesn't keep me awake at night. :)
Long answer: That 3 to 5 year estimate is based upon assumptions about usage patterns, etc. Linux and other embedded OSes use wear-levelling algorithms and other techniques. At the hardware level, there are error correcting codes (ECC) and spares. If a defective block is identified, it is replaced by a spare. The 3,000 to 5,000 program/erase cycles are per-cell, but the problem is managed at the block level. Thanks to wear-levelling and replacement, the eMMC will slowly shrink in usable capacity. There are hardware registers that track use and degradation.
BTW, I've seen estimates as high as 10,000 p/e cycles. Again, it's all based on usage patterns (how often flash memory is written).
Note that the life issue is for program (write) / erase cycles, not reads. Yamaha should be (and probably are) building search results in SDRAM, everyday primary memory with no life-cycle issues. I expect Yamaha to write data to be be saved to eMMC once during power down. BTW, this is why a user should never remove power while the OS is saving data to eMMC flash memory!
One big take away for all users, your flash drive will fail someday, too. Always keep multiple copies of your data! Your time is too valuable to waste when flash drives are so cheap.
Hope this helps -- pj
https://sandsoftwaresound.net/nand-flash-data-retention/
https://www.cnx-software.com/2019/08/16/wear-estimation-emmc-flash-memory/
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Hi PJ.
Good to know. So my question then is "how long do I keep my SX700 seeing that I purchased it in 2020. I have no idea when those writes are going to take place unless there is something specific that triggers the "write", also , how would I know when the OS is saving data so that I do not turn the keyboard off. I have never seen a message indicating that.
After all this can i safely say that it does not pay to buy a used upgrade keyboard as I will not know what it's life expectancy will be. I don't see it fair to sell mine to anyone and then that poor owner ends up with what I was trying to avoid by selling.
So two options I see, 1) run mine to the ground part it or throw it away, then buy new
2) buy a new backup motherboard and keep until mine dies, then swap it.
Does this make sense?
dom
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Dom, I think you're worrying unnecessarily. The important point is
If a defective block is identified, it is replaced by a spare. [...] Thanks to wear-levelling and replacement, the eMMC will slowly shrink in usable capacity.
And you probably won't even notice it.
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So two options I see, 1) run mine to the ground part it or throw it away, then buy new
2) buy a new backup motherboard and keep until mine dies, then swap it.
Does this make sense?
Hi Dom --
I say, go out and have an espresso or two. Maybe a glass or two... :)
I honestly don't worry about this stuff and I keep keyboards 10+ years. I drive old cars, too. :) Kurt made note of the most important point. The eMMC will not suddenly drop dead, but a bad block here or there will slowly decrease the pool of available blocks, that is, the available capacity will decrease somewhat.
C'est la vie. By the time anything is noticeable, you'll be sorry that you bought that spare motherboard. Save the money and splash out on a new ax someday like all the rest of us gear-obsessed Forum members.
As to powering off during a write, the internal Linux system will perform an orderly shutdown. Problems may occur when people rip the power cord out of the wall while the system is fully ON and active. The power switch is a command to enter the stand-by state. As to USB drives, one shouldn't remove them when a drive's busy light is flashing.
Frankly, I worry more about my heart... -- pj ;)
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Gentlemen,
Thanks for the re-assurance. I am not the worrying type, never have been, but I do like to plan to avoid inconveniences with the ability to obtain a deal when the time arises. I too have old cars and never have had to worry about their robust electronics for those that have them. Just contemplating if I should replace my points and condenser with an electronic module or maybe avoid that possible headache? I also have lots of your favorite PJ, vacuum tubes for my town and country radios and treat them like gold.
Anyway, I thank you and everyone contributing to this post for your support and information which I do value and it has also provided the temptation for me to explore these beasts so will now be looking around for a tear down SX700/900 if I find one cheap for education purposes.
Meanwhile I will be waiting to see if Yamaha will get back to me on my Search issue and pass that info on to you.
Best regards.
dom
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Hello to all following this post.
I did promise to provide a status on how things are going with Yamaha. And the good news still continues.
Status:
1. Have not heard anything from Yamaha yet. Frankly don't think I will so I have kind of given up on them
and wait for a miracle response some day to happen.
2. I have received over 12 personal emails from people with the similar problem both for SX700 and
SX900(mostly SX900) and after a long time of not being able to use the search facility they are now
working like new again. I have asked that they update their experience on the forum if they want, so this
is their prerogative.
3. Some told me that their attempts following my suggestions in the post did not work while others were
working in no time. Further communication clarified one simple point that I may not have made clear and
that was to let the keyboard "index" after the factory reset and once the indexing message appears the
issue should be gone which it was.
Procedure Recap:
1. Clear everything in your USER memory, you can do item by item manually, delete your packs, but the
easiest is go into Menu2, Utility, Storage, select "USER" which will be highlighted and then select
"FORMAT" . Once done the user area will be clean.
NOTE: ensure that no external device(USBs) are connected
2. I recommend a Reboot at this time.
3. Do the factory reset by going into Menu2, Utility, this time select "Factory Restore/Backup". Check all 6
items System, User Effect, Favorite, MIDI Registration, Live Control to get things as clean as possible.
Then selected "Factory Reset". This will be quick.
4. Now Reboot the keyboard. Understand that Reboot means turn off and on the keyboard by the way.
5. Give a couple minutes and then power it "Off"
6. Now re-install your your latest firmware version V1.11 following your Yamaha's instructions. See link.
https://europe.yamaha.com/en/support/updates/firm_psr-sx900.html
7. Once installed, remove your USB, ensure there is USB connected at this point.
8. Reboot the keyboard and do nothing. Just wait as long as possible or until the "Indexing" message show
up. I actually have never seen that message on my keyboard in all the years that I have owned it nor
have I seen it during my testing. However a few of you have told me that it does pop up. And some forum
post responses seem to indicate 15 minutes or more.
9. Once indexed with no USB connected, the magic seems to happen.
10. Reboot for the final time and your issue is gone.
11. Connect your USB and do your searches of different things. Styles, Regits, Voices, Pads, etc
This procedure is my own. I am not going to question why this sequence works this way. Maybe we can cut some step out, but since this is working not only for me but for others, I would stick with it.
Not:
Some have hit the brick wall file limit message after all this was done and thought that the issue was back. Well it was not back at all in there case. If the issue is back, this message will appear every single time you search. What you need to understand is that depending on the nature of your search criteria and the number of entries that are found that meet that criteria only the first 100 entries can only be put on the list as the memory list size can only hold 10 pages of 10 entries and the it stops writing the entry list. Hence you message. Be more specific with your list if you can and things will be displayed in your favor.
Hope this clarifies things.
New Observations:
I have not given up on my trying to determine "root cause" for this search issue so still playing around and testing things.
1. Going back to my records before the issue I was seeing those ".-" files that have been talked about in this
forum. I still have no clear understanding of them, but that is fine as I no longer have any of them around
any more. However I did noticed that as I was collecting styles from the forum and adding them to my
USBs, the list in my search keep showing an increase in the number of those entries showing up in my list
until the search issue appeared.
2. Not sure if it has any relevance. But I will say this. In all my testing that I performed and talked about in
this post, I was able to "break" my search ability every time.
3. Once I deleted them and in particular ".-E*", I no long can "break" my search. So could there be some
relationship to the way the keyboard handles them?????? These were the first files that were listed in my
failing search and never got to see if any others would make my keyboard react the same way as I just
blew everything with ".-*" off my computer and USBs.
4. The path on my USB before cleanup was "Yamaha new styles/download/dec2021/usb drive/usb 2015/vse
ps3.Balken". I am trying to zero in on those and will try to locate them on the forum style sections so
that I can isolate them this time and do some further testing of the keyboard's behavior with them.
My curiosity has gotten the best of me so I will continue to play around with this issue until I reach my saturation point on this subject. I have asked if anyone has a copy of a previous firmware upgrade, something like V1.10 or prior and no one has sent me one yet. Please check you files and see if you have one lying around.. I reallllllllllly would like to play with that version, even if I can't break my search any longer At the moment. However I suspect that those ".-E*" may still be in a style folder on the forum so will hunt those down again. And yes the guy with backups of backups should have a copy but I am also very good at cleanup. This time too good.
Best regards! dom
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Hi dom,
Here a link to SX700 version 1.04 (link valid for one week): https://we.tl/t-OgsjwBCVa8 (https://we.tl/t-OgsjwBCVa8)
I also had problems with the search on my SX700 but then I have reduced the number of files on the USB and the issue seems to have disappeared now. But it is good to know that there is a more firm solution in case the issue comes back.
Johan
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Hello Johan.
Thanks for the link.. This is great as I now have something to work with different from the existing V1.11.
Btw, the search issue comes in two flavor.
One is the hard search where the search list will never change on you regards of what you search unless you follow my procedure, and the other is the search hitting the max entry limit which comes form tooooo many file entries with the similar name in your search criteria. If you get the second, which I think you got, then what you did is the way to go if your folders have redundancy and this becomes a pain for you.
For me I still have over 25,000 entries on my USB and growing(I am a bad boy this way) but I can search what I want by just being more selective in my search and the keyboard is still happy. Why do I do this one may ask. It's because I want to have everything I need all in one place so I don't have to keep switching USBs when I want something. There are many styles for a song in different folder and from different forum members so rather than to move all of them into one folder I just keep things in existing folders. My silly mentality may go against the flow of many recommendations in the posts of this forum, but file management for me is not an issue. I got burnt with the registrations once which was a lesson learned the hard way but now I use caution and have been good.
I do respect the limit that is talked about in this forum about ensuring that the number of registrations in a folder does not exceed the Yamaha recommended max threshold, I think I read 255. Regardless I have kept my down lower and just created multiple Registration folders.
I think you know not to move style files around if the registrations are using them so be careful when you reduce your folders and entries on the USB else as you know the registrations may not work.
All the best!
dom
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Hi, I've been busy these days, but today I was able to dedicate more time to my SX900. I confirm that the procedure by Dom, step by step, resolve the problem about the search funsion (with soft reset performed several times). Delete everything from user memory including expansion packs. Soft reset again, Keyboard left without USB for a couple of hours, firmware 1.11 installed again. Inserting the USB with styles (134,000 styles on board carefully divided) (don't ask me why. I have the same answer as Dom lol). To Wait the index again.
Indexing performed and search function restored and working. I'have is one problem, however, when entering the expansion menu (button on the right of the keyboard) and carrying out a search for voices, the problem is still present for the vce files, results are given that are no longer present in USB. The search for styles is perfect, the search for voices still presents a problem, both from the expansions/user, buttom in the right, both from display selected R1 R2 and R3 voice and using search funsion. All link shown in search works for the styles but not all for vce. Dom checks whether the search starting from the expansions menu (expansion/user button in the right, see photo B) works correctly. For my keyboard no work good. Now not have time for to study this, I will try as soon as possible to repeit the procedure with the reinstallation of the 1.11 firmware. Pietro
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Hello Pietro.
Very interesting. I have just performed the following search on my keyboard and here are my resulsts.
1. My expansion area shows Africa, Europe, Latin America & Oriental so that we are on the same page
2. I did a search for the letter "a", then "c", then "b" and "549"
3. All my searches in point #2 show.."The number of search results has exceeded the limit" of course - normal
- I did get different results of course with 10 pages of them and all different every time.
4. Now I do a selective search like "altair"
5. My result is only 1 page now with 1- Altair, 4-altair 494 and 4-altair 549
6. Did another search on "growlsax" and result was 4 pages, 3 full pages and last 4th with only 4 entries in it
7. Now with the Expansion button light on I selected my USB1, cleared my previous entries from point #6
and did a search on "acordian". Result was an empty list which it should be. I spelt accordion wrong
8. Did a search on my USB1 for "awtar" and got 3-Awtar 1G3 and 4-Awtar 621, so USB search working too.
This confirms that Mine is working fine and anyone can confirm my results to keep me honest.
The only thing I can suggest is what you are planning and that is to redo, after ensuring everything in User is clean. Should show 1gb available space. I think the memory size is the same for SX900 as it is for my SX700. Then do your thing and this time let it index again but twice.. Power off and on, index, power off and on a second time and let it index again ensuring that there is NO usb connected during that time. Then check things out. If that does not work, I will be at a loss.
As I mentioned I have no idea on the software logic so my workaround is only based on speculation. I have been trying to break my search function and I can't. It is still working great.
I have not had time yet to install the old version firmware provided to me to see if I can break things, but I still point my finger on those ".-E*" files as being my cause which broke things every single time when I had them on my USB with my styles. Once I cleaned them up from everywhere, I am unable to break this search function.
I will say one thing, though that I am not the only that has large number of files on a USB and good to see that it is also working on the SX900-why should it not? Just cumbersome for many unless you know how to organize your folder and do selective searches so that you do not hit the limit brick wall. An that message does not break anything as we have been seeing.
I would love to put my finger on the exact trigger that breaks the search function. So the more we communicate the better more we understand. I don't expect Yamaha to ever fix this issue so don't hold your breath for that one. However, I do believe in miracles!
Best Regards! dom
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The vagueness on recommended number of files in a directory I think comes down to the internals of the FAT32 format. A directory can have 65536 'entries'. Each file will require multiple 'entry' - at least 2, and more if longer file names are used. I think therefore the 255 guide is not unreasonable, but not absolute. I guess once you exceed the limit, the addition of additional files to the directory would fail.
Mike
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I hope to have time to try again soon. However, one positive thing is that the USB search for styles works well now, the results are correct and no false links with files not present on the USB have recurred. This is a big step for me. Consider that it was on the second attempt. The first one I didn't follow Dom's instructions to the letter. The advice to avoid style names with "strange" letters is excellent. Fat32 formatting should affect file size and not the number of files, but I don't have the knowledge to say this for sure. What is important is that the path indicated by Dominic is the right one to solve the problem of the search not updating correctly. I confirm that it works... great job Dom.
PS I realized that some Voices that I had modified and saved in user, they remained in user memory. I didn't notice it before because I entered the menu from styles and therefore deleted what I saw (but not the voices, which I couldn't see from there). Today, entering from the expansion/user button on the right, I went to user and found about ten voices stored and not deleted, "my fault". All that remains is to repeat Dom's procedure.
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hi dom
PSR-SX900/700 service manual is circulating on internet and if you're interested I can send it to you. But to benefit from it, certain electronic knowledge is required, though.
As can be seen on Youtube, disassembling and assembling the keyboard is relative simple. I did that (greased the keybed) and I had no problems at all. However, if you don't feel confident, then just don't do it.
Anyway, your issue is purely software based and so there's no point to open the keyboard (looking inside won't help).
What amazes me about Yamaha arrangers is the fact, that "full factory reset" (as from the box state) simply doesn't exist. That would obviously solve your problem (I say "your", because I don't use search function at all).
Bogdan
Hello Bogdan, reading your post, could you plese facilitate to me a copy of the psr-sx 900/700 service manual? I appreciate very much your help.
Best Regards
Bernardo.
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Hi All.
As promised, I did say that I would provide a status of this issue once Yamaha touched base with me.
Well, I have to say that today I had a very pleasant phone conversation with the Technology Product Manager in Canada and he has assured me that Yamaha is very interested in replicating and understanding the details associated with this issue.
In fact CS Group Quality Assurance Department Musical Instruments Business Unit Yamaha Corporation of Japan is involved and seeking basically answers to questions that we have all documented in this post. I provided the link to this post for their documentation gathering and analysis.
One of their ask was to help them identify how to break the search that I was sooo good at doing before. Now, (as previously stated) I kind of kick myself in the butt that I deleted those ".-E*" 2005 Balken styles without taking a backup for this particular reason as it is more than obvious that once they were deleted off all my USBs, at least on my keyboard, immediately I was unable to break the search again. Not sure if I mentioned, I have to assume that they were created on a Tyros 1 or 2 judging from the TY suffix and the release dates of 2002 -2005?
So at least for now, we can give Yamaha credit for taking interest!! Thanks You Yamaha Canada and Japan Corp.
Regards dom.
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Hi .
I have opened a separate Post related to the Search behavior which is really a continuance of this but more details are provided with a very favorable finding.
https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,69438.msg522537.html#msg522537
Regards dom.