PSR Tutorial Forum
Genos (12 Boards) => Genos2 => Topic started by: hoangbr2014 on March 16, 2024, 04:34:30 PM
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Dear all, After 3 weeks to load expansions and setting up for the new Genos2, I play to compare with Genos1. In my opinion, the sounds of Genos2 seem louder than Genos 1. Also, sounds Genos2 have more treble and midrange. Personally, I like the sound of Genos1 more than Genos2. Sound Genos1 is glitter and deep, but Genos2 seems stronger than Genos1. What about your opinion?
I updated after gigging on stage, Genos 2 have more midrange, but lack of treble. CFX piano has problem with dynamic. When heavily press, no difference sound, jut only louder.
Updated: Here is the demo about piano to compare between Genos 1 and Genos 2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrZZaiZR784
Best Regards
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I love the sound of Genos2 it is so much more alive. The new Ambient reverb works wonders and makes for a much more enjoyable listen.
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@hoangbr2014
If you cut all DSP’s of the 2 keyboards, does the Genos 2 sounds mor in treble and midrange area vs Genos 1 ?
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@hoangbr2014
If you cut all DSP’s of the 2 keyboards, does the Genos 2 sounds mor in treble and midrange area vs Genos 1 ?
Dear, I will make a demo for 2 keyboards. Lats night first gigging, it shows clearly. When on Genos 1, when I heavily press the key, the piano sound makes a dynamic sound that can make a twist. When press on Genos 2, is not happen, sound louder, but there is no dynamic sound.
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Dear, I will make a demo for 2 keyboards. Lats night first gigging, it shows clearly. When on Genos 1, when I heavily press the key, the piano sound makes a dynamic sound that can make a twist. When press on Genos 2, is not happen, sound louder, but there is no dynamic sound.
Updated: Here is the demo about piano to compare between Genos 1 and Genos 2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrZZaiZR784
Best Regards
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hello hoangbr,
I don't have Genos and so here's just my personal impression from your video -btw. I was mainly interested on piano.
First part (CFX piano only): Honestly, I don't hear much difference and even the difference that I do hear, can be my imagination. If my hearing doesn't fool me, then compared to Genos1, CFX on Genos2 sounded more sharp (or aggressive) to me. This usually happens at more pronounced midrange frequencies, which can also be influenced by vibrance (or hall?) effect. I'm not saying which keyboard has more accurate CFX piano, but to me, piano sounds a bit more pleasant on Genos1.
As I said, the difference (if any) is very small and maybe noticeable only in direct comparison. Very important: I have listened with headphones and that can make a big difference. When we listen on good loudspeakers in actual room, the sound spreads across the room and we get quite different sound picture -maybe in that case the difference between Genos1 and Genos2 CFX piano are more apparent.
My personal opinion: CFX piano wouldn't be deciding factor if I would need to decide between Genos1 and Genos2.
Thank you for sharing the video!
Bogdan
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hello hoangbr,
I don't have Genos and so here's just my personal impression from your video -btw. I was mainly interested on piano.
First part (CFX piano only): Honestly, I don't hear much difference and even the difference that I do hear, can be my imagination. If my hearing doesn't fool me, then compared to Genos1, CFX on Genos2 sounded more sharp (or aggressive) to me. This usually happens at more pronounced midrange frequencies, which can also be influenced by vibrance (or hall?) effect. I'm not saying which keyboard has more accurate CFX piano, but to me, piano sounds a bit more pleasant on Genos1.
As I said, the difference (if any) is very small and maybe noticeable only in direct comparison. Very important: I have listened with headphones and that can make a big difference. When we listen on good loudspeakers in actual room, the sound spreads across the room and we get quite different sound picture -maybe in that case the difference between Genos1 and Genos2 CFX piano are more apparent.
My personal opinion: CFX piano wouldn't be deciding factor if I would need to decide between Genos1 and Genos2.
Thank you for sharing the video!
Bogdan
Dear, thank you for your reply, I agree with you that "piano sounds a bit more pleasant on Genos1". The problem with CFX on Genos2 is that, when I strongly press on keys, no sound difference. When I heavily press on Genos1 CFX, it makes a pop sound. In 3 weeks, I felt something wrong on Geenos2. I went to the Guitar Center to test. The sound is the same as my Genos2 at home. Currently, I only feel pleasant when play Genos1, but I know some advances on Genos2 such as Effect or sound stronger than. Thank you very much.
Best Regards
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Hi --
I'm not sure what you mean by a "pop sound." I'm playing Genos1 at home and it sounds OK to me. Perhaps Yamaha revised the CFX attack on Genos2? Maybe they cleaned up the piano samples in Genos2?
This is all guessing. Still, I hope you enjoy your instruments and you're lucky to have both models! ;D
All the best -- pj
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Hi --
I'm not sure what you mean by a "pop sound." I'm playing Genos1 at home and it sounds OK to me. Perhaps Yamaha revised the CFX attack on Genos2? Maybe they cleaned up the piano samples in Genos2?
This is all guessing. Still, I hope you enjoy your instruments and you're lucky to have both models! ;D
All the best -- pj
Dear, sorry my English is bad. I mean that Piano on Genos1 is better than Genos 2. The "pop sound" is a good dynamic sound caused by the hammer action keyboard, which means a good sound. I prefer Genos 1 Piano due to having this sound, but Genos2 is not. Piano sample each layer has its practical sound, for example, when we make a hard strike on key, it makes sound like hammer action keyboard on piano.
Btw, I have to sell one: G2 or G1, because I need only one.
Thanks
Best Regard
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Anyone who has ever played a real CFX grand knows that it is a very ‘sharp’ sounding piano. In fact that is why it is a very common choice in studios, and by pop artists, - it really cuts through the other instruments.
Some people like that sound - some like warmer sounding pianos, like Bosendorfer or Shigeru.
Mike
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I would like that the Genos 2 keyboard still has all the Genos 1 piano sounds as well does it not?
Yamaha has always included previous voices and just added to their library of voices, I thought.
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In the G2's Data List only "Concert Grand" is listed in the Legacy section. No mention of the CFX, at least from what I can tell, because for some reason Yamaha provided the list in Excel format which opens up as a mess as a PDF. Perhaps the G1's CFX's takes up too much memory to include in Legacy.
Rich
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Thanks for taking time to finally make a short / good demonstration.
Even if I would have preferred a test without any DSP effects to listen only to the quality of the audio converters of each keyboard
but, as I said in other discussions, all the demonstrations of the new Genos 2 to my ears sound the same,
personally I prefer the sound of the Genos 1 in this video
as I also prefer the sound of Montage M which is unfortunately still not available around me.
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I would like that the Genos 2 keyboard still has all the Genos 1 piano sounds as well does it not?
Yamaha has always included previous voices and just added to their library of voices, I thought.
I think that the CFX on Genos2 is new, not like Genos1. The problem is no dynamic voice due to the lack of layers. Hard strike on keys, but no dynamic sound shows up.
Best Regards
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Please check your settings on keyboard touch. There are several
options including in that has no dynamics.
Perhaps you used a regustration that has set this option
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A few comments -
1. when doing this kind of comparison please be clear which keyboard is which, don’t assume that everyone is so familiar with both keyboards they can identify small visual differences ……, I couldn’t.
2. My understanding is that the keyboards have different keybeds. That would also make a difference to response/sound. As a piano player, I make the point here all the time that the key response is a bigger differentiator than the voice …. Provided the voice is acceptably good.
3. there is a very slight difference in sound, but both sound like very good and realistic piano voices. Frankly I wouldn't care too much which one I played.
4. if I audition two actual CFX pianos in a store they would not be identical, and I might notice subtle sound and feel difference.
All top quality pianos sound great to me, ……different, but great. But they don’t all FEEL the same and that affects sound as well as touch. The real reason that concert players often insist on Steinway is not because they sound way better, or even feel better ….it’s because that’s what they practice on and what is in most concert halls ( the result of great marketing rather than best quality) and they want familiar feel.
Mike
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@Mike
Ok, I recognized which one is which immediately... but if comparing, then the point is which is better: the one on bottom or the one on the top -if there's difference at all :)
I'm pretty sure that Genos1 and Genos2 have the same keybed.. otherwise Yamaha would for sure advertise keybed improvement :)
I agree on the rest what you say.
Bogdan
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Yes they have the same key bed but Genos 2 has some lovely new piano's which sound just beautiful especially the New Character Grand. You always need to hear these sort of demo's played live on the actual keyboard. Recordings vary so much.
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Dear, sorry my English is bad. I mean that Piano on Genos1 is better than Genos 2. The "pop sound" is a good dynamic sound caused by the hammer action keyboard, which means a good sound.
Ha-ha! My bad! You're looking for a good piano tone that is suitable for pop (popular) music. :D
The Montage (gen 1) players craved the C7 piano for rock/pop. C7 pianos are often used for this kind of music. Genos1 had the C7 before Montage M (gen 2).
With all of the new acoustic pianos in Genos2, hopefully, one of those pianos would be suitable?
Yamaha definitely reworked the CFX for Genos2. Perhaps the touch response was affected? It will be a long while before I see and play a Genos2 in person...
I generally agree with Mike (mikf). The FSX keybed is better than the PSRs, but still isn't as responsive as Yamaha's mid- to upper-range digital pianos.
Sorry for my earlier misunderstanding -- pj
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Please check your settings on keyboard touch. There are several
options including in that has no dynamics.
Perhaps you used a regustration that has set this option
Thanks for your reply. I know that, setting the same two keyboards, even Genos2 set to Hard1 or Hard2, still sounds the same.
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Ha-ha! My bad! You're looking for a good piano tone that is suitable for pop (popular) music. :D
The Montage (gen 1) players craved the C7 piano for rock/pop. C7 pianos are often used for this kind of music. Genos1 had the C7 before Montage M (gen 2).
With all of the new acoustic pianos in Genos2, hopefully, one of those pianos would be suitable?
Yamaha definitely reworked the CFX for Genos2. Perhaps the touch response was affected? It will be a long while before I see and play a Genos2 in person...
I generally agree with Mike (mikf). The FSX keybed is better than the PSRs, but still isn't as responsive as Yamaha's mid- to upper-range digital pianos.
Sorry for my earlier misunderstanding -- pj
Hi, I have only one time gigging on stage with Genos 2. This week, I will play it again on stage. Wait and see how sounding. Currently, I am very disappointed about CFX Piano on Genos 2. I will keep my Genos 1 for several months and decide to sell Gonos2 or Genos1 later.
Thanks
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Surely the decision about which one to keep does not hang on the CFX piano. Especially since most of us hardly hear any difference. It’s tiny at the most. It’s like deciding which house to buy based on a slight difference in the sound of the door bell.
Mike
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Dear, I will make a demo for 2 keyboards. Lats night first gigging, it shows clearly. When on Genos 1, when I heavily press the key, the piano sound makes a dynamic sound that can make a twist. When press on Genos 2, is not happen, sound louder, but there is no dynamic sound.
I put the 2 CFX's up side by side, and the G1's is thinner and less warm; but if you want a more pronounced dynamic, you should be using the Character Grand or the C7; the CFX is all about subtle and smooth. You must also hate the Felt Grand, which is even more subtle!
The Rock variation of the Character Grand is particularly punchy; the U1 and tHe U3 uprights are both pretty bright and dynamic as well.
And for once, no, they didn't include the previous version of the CFX in the G2
Mark
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I put the 2 CFX's up side by side, and the G1's is thinner and less warm; but if you want a more pronounced dynamic, you should be using the Character Grand or the C7; the CFX is all about subtle and smooth. You must also hate the Felt Grand, which is even more subtle!
The Rock variation of the Character Grand is particularly punchy; the U1 and tHe U3 uprights are both pretty bright and dynamic as well.
And for once, no, they didn't include the previous version of the CFX in the G2
Mark
Hi Mark, thank you for your reply. I tried all and realized that the Character Grand or the C7 and some piano sounds seem to have an issue: the sustain pedal very short.
I am a fan of Yanni and Clayderman. Therefore, piano, epiano, string, and synth are very important, because I rarely use sounds like guitar or woodwind.
Actually, I had a short time to try Genos2 at a store. At that time, I was not impressed with Genos 2, besides new effects. Nearby, was the Korg PA5X. I thought I should buy Korg PA5X, but I think that the rest of my musician life is Yamaha. If switching to Korg, I have to build all data again.
But I think about buying it because I think the latest model is always better than previous products, like Genos 1 and Tyros 5. So I bought an online dealer, waited for a week, and loaded data and expansions from Genos1 to G2. When I played, I felt Genos 2 lacks of effects, and velocity seems something wrong. I felt lost in the mood when played Genos 2. In 3 weeks later, I still feel confused: is there any wrong with my instrument?
On the first day of gigging, it showed clearly because my clients said "You play not good as normal day". I asked my friend, who has Genos2, about how he feeling about the new keyboard. I also came to the Guitar Center to test Genos2 again. After comparing the sound of Genos 2 at Guitar Center and my Genos2, I realized that nothing wrong with my G2. I have to accept whatever Yamaha giving. Therefore, I wrote this topic to share that anybody has the feeling like me on Genos2.
By the way, I listen to my friend, who has G2, too. I need time to be familiar with the sound from Genos2. Could be buying piano expansion, or selling G2 then buying Korg PA5X going along with Genos1.
Hoang
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I think you can adjust sustain with one of the knobs.
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The knob that adjusts the piano sustain is
the one marked release, which is also a parameter in
voice edit. While playing you should use the sustain
pedal for piano voices, that is how the demonstrators
get such realistic pianos. Also, try the various touch settings
since the velocity curves may have changed from
Genos1. I have had my Genos2 for several weeks
and it is fantastic. It is important to try all the voices
to learn their qualities. For example the soft trumpet
can sound very different depending on touch and aftertouch.
The sounds are very well defined and their stereo
field is maintained by the new stereo reverb. One final
suggestion is to find styles that use the pianos
you want and listen to their piano tracks which you
can isolate in the channel menu. That is a good way
to learn how the pianos are optimized with effects
and with playing techniques, including sustain. Don't give up
since the Genos2 is one of its kind.
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Hi Mark, thank you for your reply. I tried all and realized that the Character Grand or the C7 and some piano sounds seem to have an issue: the sustain pedal very short.
I am a fan of Yanni and Clayderman. Therefore, piano, epiano, string, and synth are very important, because I rarely use sounds like guitar or woodwind.
Actually, I had a short time to try Genos2 at a store. At that time, I was not impressed with Genos 2, besides new effects. Nearby, was the Korg PA5X. I thought I should buy Korg PA5X, but I think that the rest of my musician life is Yamaha. If switching to Korg, I have to build all data again.
But I think about buying it because I think the latest model is always better than previous products, like Genos 1 and Tyros 5. So I bought an online dealer, waited for a week, and loaded data and expansions from Genos1 to G2. When I played, I felt Genos 2 lacks of effects, and velocity seems something wrong. I felt lost in the mood when played Genos 2. In 3 weeks later, I still feel confused: is there any wrong with my instrument?
On the first day of gigging, it showed clearly because my clients said "You play not good as normal day". I asked my friend, who has Genos2, about how he feeling about the new keyboard. I also came to the Guitar Center to test Genos2 again. After comparing the sound of Genos 2 at Guitar Center and my Genos2, I realized that nothing wrong with my G2. I have to accept whatever Yamaha giving. Therefore, I wrote this topic to share that anybody has the feeling like me on Genos2.
By the way, I listen to my friend, who has G2, too. I need time to be familiar with the sound from Genos2. Could be buying piano expansion, or selling G2 then buying Korg PA5X going along with Genos1.
Hoang
I mean, get the Pa5x if you like; the piano *is* really good (and the bass and drums, too). Or you could go back to G1; it seems to me you may have set your keyboard touch to medium or hard if you find it less dynamic; the g2 pianos are absolutely more dynamic than the G1, but it's possible you used a punchier compressor on the G1 and a more sensative touch to fool your senses.
As for the Character grand having a short sustain; I just A/B'd and its bass notes are definitely longer than the CFX's, although the CFX's decay is more linear and the Character grand's is more of an exponential decay; when you get up to the highest octaves, the characeter's initially decays faster due to the exponential decay, but it's recorded for as long or longer than the cfx on every note I tried. It's hard to tell with all the reverb on, go ahead and dial the reverb to 0 and you should hear them properly.
I think you should go to the master compressor, and turn it off (might be too much compression on for your), although leaving it on natural should've been fine. Note that if you go to Voice Edit on CFX on G1, the internal volume of the CFX voice is 119, on G2 it's 110. So set the G2's to 119 as well.
Then change your keyboard touch response from Normal to Easy 2, Soft1 or Soft2 and try again?
If all else fails, use CHaracter on Right 1, use either CFX or C7 Studio on Right 2, and you get an incredibly dynamic piano.
Mark
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I mean, get the Pa5x if you like; the piano *is* really good (and the bass and drums, too). Or you could go back to G1; it seems to me you may have set your keyboard touch to medium or hard if you find it less dynamic; the g2 pianos are absolutely more dynamic than the G1, but it's possible you used a punchier compressor on the G1 and a more sensative touch to fool your senses.
As for the Character grand having a short sustain; I just A/B'd and its bass notes are definitely longer than the CFX's, although the CFX's decay is more linear and the Character grand's is more of an exponential decay; when you get up to the highest octaves, the characeter's initially decays faster due to the exponential decay, but it's recorded for as long or longer than the cfx on every note I tried. It's hard to tell with all the reverb on, go ahead and dial the reverb to 0 and you should hear them properly.
I think you should go to the master compressor, and turn it off (might be too much compression on for your), although leaving it on natural should've been fine. Note that if you go to Voice Edit on CFX on G1, the internal volume of the CFX voice is 119, on G2 it's 110. So set the G2's to 119 as well.
Then change your keyboard touch response from Normal to Easy 2, Soft1 or Soft2 and try again?
If all else fails, use CHaracter on Right 1, use either CFX or C7 Studio on Right 2, and you get an incredibly dynamic piano.
Mark
Hi Mark, thanks for your reply. I accept what Yamaha gives, and not discuss here more, just tell the fact. For"but it's possible you used a punchier compressor on the G1 and a more sensative touch to fool your senses", this is not because I know all setting my keyboard as factory set natural, and EQ as Flat.
Thanks
Hoang
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the U1 and tHe U3 uprights are both pretty bright and dynamic as well.
Mark
Sorry to cut the thread. I find the U1 with a lot of reverb (the new one in G2) is a very good clear sound even if it can’t be used as a concert grand piano for Classical renditions.
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Hi Mark, thanks for your reply. I accept what Yamaha gives, and not discuss here more, just tell the fact. For"but it's possible you used a punchier compressor on the G1 and a more sensative touch to fool your senses", this is not because I know all setting my keyboard as factory set natural, and EQ as Flat.
Thanks
Hoang
I wasn't saying that you've tricked yourself :) I was merely offering suggestions for possible solutions for a more dynamic piano. As Soundphase also chimed in, the new U1 and U3 are also really clear, crisp pianos!
Mark
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I agree too I guess Yamaha retweeked some of the preset voices I have a good idea here’s style Discohands originality from tyros 4 try it on both genos models and even the psr sx models to do a true sound comparison with the same voices . Here’s the style. https://www.dropbox.com/s/izfks7jqhkuzgv1/DiscoHands.T160.prs?dl=0
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I love the Felt piano on the Genos 2.
Overall I think the sound of Genos 2 compared to Genos, is more powerful and wider spread of sound. I think this is maybe why it sounds louder than original Genos due to the advanced engineering?
Having owned the original Genos for six years, I’m delighted I took the plunge to move up to Genos 2.
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Yes me to James. Great Keyboard all round.
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Hello all,
Correct me if I'm wrong but my former G1 had a feature that allowed the user to adjust the volume of a style while playing it with a more aggressive touch or less aggressive, depending on the volume the player wanted during a performance.
I miss that, and I can't seem to get that feature on G2.
If someone could suggest how to go about this I would be forever grateful.
I hope also that some or any on our members know what I'm talking about and I didn't dream this up.
regards
Ron
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If someone could suggest how to go about this I would be forever grateful.
I hope also that some or any on our members know what I'm talking about and I didn't dream this up.
Hi Ron --
You're not dreaming. :) On Genos 1, that feature is called "Dynamics Control", Genos 1 Reference Manual, page 11.
Yamaha rejiggered this feature for Genos 2: Genos2 Reference Manual, pages 11, 27 and 147. G2 people will chime in. The newer implementation dynamically tweaks volume and velocity for more realistic impression of live players.
-- pj
Update: Yamaha highlighted this feature in its promotional videos, but oddly, it's buried in the manual. No mention in the G2 Owner's Manual at all.
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Thanks pj,
I thought I was going nuts there!
I have to say that I prefer the way G1 handled this.
It was so much simpler
Yamaha seems to have tried to fix something that isn't broken,IMHO
best regards
Ron
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On the subject of sustain, I have found that all the digital pianos I have played have relatively poor sustain, not just arrangers. I guess this may be due to the massive memory/sampling requirement to have a very long sustain time on a polyphonic instrument.
But even acoustic piano brands have very variable sustain, with the higher quality pianos nearly always vastly superior in this regard. I have a Yamaha Grand which cost about 20k, and is not their very best quality, but its still an expensive piano and it is a Yamaha. And its pretty nice .... but I also have a Shigeru which cost many times that much, and the sustain and total sound as a result, is miles better than the Yamaha. Same with all the other quality piano brands like Bosendorfer, Steinway, Bluthner, I have been lucky enough to play. They all sound fabulous, and the sustain is a definite part of that. I suppose this is because the sustain is very much related to quality of design, construction and materials, particularly, the soundboard quality.
The thing is why it matters. Most of the time in normal playing the sustain pedal is released in couple of seconds or less, much shorter than the total time to decay to zero of even the poorest sustain. so why does it matter if the total sustain sample time is 10 secs rather than 30 secs. The problem is that the total decay time also affects the shape of the decay curve, so the pianos with a very long decay time will have much fuller sound after a couple of seconds. This is why the best pianos can sound so much more satisfying to the player, and they will always appear to have a much fuller overall sound. This 'nice' feeling is probably the second most important thing after the feel of the keyboard for a piano player, and maybe more important than tone.
Mike
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Yes Mike, completely agree on what you say.
It's not really a problem if sustain (sample length practically) is only 10s long. What matters is, what's inside these 10s (decay curve).
Bogdan
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Agreed, mike. Although the sustain on the hybrids (N1x, N2, N3x) is incredible. 30+ seconds on the lowest notes.
Steinway actually has a patented soundboard to elongate the sustain (most pianos use a pretty uniform cross section on their soundboards (thin rectangular), Steinway uses one with tapered edges (a bit like an airplane wing cross section except both sides would be trailing edges) so that more mass is in the centre, allowing it to resonate for longer, and with thinner sides, allowing for more free resonating.
Mark
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Mark
My Shigeru has an incredible sustain. I never measured it but it seemed to go on almost forever. It’s in Europe and I’m in the US at the moment, so I can’t measure it, but will be there next month and will do. I actually had a normal Kawaii piano before changing to the a Shigeru, and it was not even close to the class of the Shigeru, but to be fair it was pretty good and it also cost a lot less.
Kawai bought the whole mountainside of a particular Spruce that are reputed to make the best soundboards, because he felt that was key, and it meant only he could access it. He only uses it in the Shigeru.
A recent detailed review I saw said that Shigeru Kawaii had largely copied the Steinway design down to the last detail, even fastener positions, to make his flagship piano, but then improved some of the materials, thicker casing etc. It’s certainly a stunning piano, superbly finished, and although expensive, a bargain compared to Steinway or Bosies. My tuner says it is the best constructed and most stable piano he works on. He tunes it only once a year and says it hardly drifts at all.
Mike
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SK's *do* sound really good.
However, they're not allowed to borrow *anything* from Steinway design. It's literally in their contract agreement; Kawai OEM produces Bostons on behalf of Steinway (they asked Yamaha first, but Yamaha was already at capacity manufacturing their own pianos). Part of the agreement is they aren't allowed to copy any part of Steinway's designs (and if they did, they would probably face financial ruin).
Most noteably: *no* manufacturer in the world would ever put higher quality materials in their oem manufactured products.
https://familypiano.com/blog/kawai-vs-steinway/
Interestingly they go on to defend the use of plastic parts in their Kawai pianos; depsite the fact that none of the high end brands does this (including their own Shigeru). In reference to this article saying that's like saying polyester sweaters are plastic: they are.
And Steinways *do* appreciate in value, as do Martin guitars. But that's for investors to quibble about, not musicians like us!
But you know as well as anybody: If you want the best, you'll have to pay more.
Here's a less defensive article:
https://www.pianobrands.org/yamaha-vs-kawai-vs-steinway/
But SK's made in Japan? Do indeed sound really good for the money. No argument here. But there are a lot of myths out there; Steinway *is* the best (99.9% of all concert halls use a Steinway; a small percentage did try putting Faziolis in them, but over 90% of those went back to Steinway). And absolutely agree, Sk's blow Kawai's out of the water (not least of which is higher material quality in SK's vs Kawais.)
But that doesn't mean SK, Yamaha's, Bosendorfers, (which are actually also Yamahas since 2008), Sauters aren't all really good, because they *are*, too!
Mark
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Mark, i wish I could remember the link to the website where the guy, an excellent pianist and piano blogger, went into a detailed comparison of Steinway and SK. He measured everything, and said he was shocked at how closely the SK matched the Steinway. And he then produces detailed playing comparisons, and says they are almost impossible to tell apart. He actually referred to the Shigeru as a ‘fake Steinway’.
I got involved with a top level business consultant on a marketing project back in the 80s. His big reference project was New York Steinway, which he claimed to have worked with and turned the business around. Don’t know how true that was but he certainly appeared to maintain great relations with Steinway top management and offered to take me there. But I never did go.
He told me that the master stroke at Steinway was not their piano quality, which although very good was actually not really considered better than the other top brands, and truthfully they were having quality issues at the New York factory. He said the key was a marketing vision and commitment which foresaw that penetrating all the conservatories where all the budding concert pianists were being groomed, combined with driving great deals to put them in concert halls would provide huge brand loyalty. The worlds best players would ultimately demand Steinway all the time because that was what they were used to playing. And people would then associate great players with Steinway pianos, instilling the link that they must be the best because the best demand them. It definitely worked.
Of course they are also great pianos, but truthfully there are other equally great pianos, that don’t carry that Steinway kudos. Fazioli are generally considered the best, and I have seen a website where a famous piano technician (actually Oscar Peterson’s personal tuner) listed Fazioli as clearly the best, with German Steinway, Shigeru and Bosendorfer just behind. He was actually quite critical of New York Steinway. But here is the bottom line - if you are a concert pianist and you have practiced and performed on a Steinway every day of your life, you don’t want to be suddenly presented with a Fazioli at a concert performance, no matter how good people say it is.
Mind you, I believe Peterson actually favored Bosendorfer.
Mike
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I contacted Yamaha, and they suggested, "was only able to hear the slightest difference in treble/presence. assume the Genos 2 voice/s is EQ slightly flatter than the Genos voice/s
would suggest experimenting with the Master EQ and increasing the Middle High and High frequency levels".
By the way, I bought CFX Piano Genos 1, and then put it into Genos 1. Personally, this guy has been very good so far. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4dtUf0k-R0
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Hi Hoang,
Have you tried using the Genos1 "CFX Concert Grand" voice file on the Genos2?
I compared this voice file (.nlv) in MixMaster (List View) with the corresponding Genos2 voice file and found the following differences in particular (in addition to some additional SysEx that are included in the Genos2 voice file):
Part EQ Treble Gain (@ 2.8 kHz):
Genos1: 80
Genos2: 64
Reverb Send Level:
Genos1: 17
Genos2: 36
As you can see, the Genos1 CFX ConcertGrand definitely has more treble and less reverb.
You can download the Genos1 "CFX ConcertGrand" voice file at the following link. If you haven't already done so, please load it on the Genos2 and compare it with the Genos2 "CFX ConcertGrand":
>>> CFX ConcertGrandG1.T228.nlv (https://app.box.com/s/k1pabww6i0klrgsraikwygi36jujptak)
Best regards,
Chris
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Hi Hoang,
Have you tried using the Genos1 "CFX Concert Grand" voice file on the Genos2?
I compared this voice file (.nlv) in MixMaster (List View) with the corresponding Genos2 voice file and found the following differences in particular (in addition to some additional SysEx that are included in the Genos2 voice file):
Part EQ Treble Gain (@ 2.8 kHz):
Genos1: 80
Genos2: 64
Reverb Send Level:
Genos1: 17
Genos2: 36
As you can see, the Genos1 CFX ConcertGrand definitely has more treble and less reverb.
You can download the Genos1 "CFX ConcertGrand" voice file at the following link. If you haven't already done so, please load it on the Genos2 and compare it with the Genos2 "CFX ConcertGrand":
>>> CFX ConcertGrandG1.T228.nlv (https://app.box.com/s/k1pabww6i0klrgsraikwygi36jujptak)
Best regards,
Chris
Hi Chris,
Thank you for your idea. I tried all, loading Geno1 factory sound to Genos 2, tried editing EQ or Reverb settings. The G2 has good new drums, reverb, and new styles. But I think I like the "taste" of the sound of Genos.
All my friends, no one complained about Genos 2, only me.
The ordeal situation that my boss, the owner of the bar club, where I played 3 days a week, preferred the Genos 1. Last 2 weeks, I played with Genos 2. Tonight, I bring Genos 1. He said, "No more Genos 2, ok!". That is ridiculous.
But anyway I think the different taste of sound. Here is the piano Genos 2 that I modified reverb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9dsMu4JtCM&t=28s
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Tonight, I bring Genos 1. He said, "No more Genos 2, ok!". That is ridiculous.
That is crazy. Put tape over the "2". :D
Good luck -- pj
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Hi Chris,
Thank you for your idea. I tried all, loading Geno1 factory sound to Genos 2, tried editing EQ or Reverb settings. The G2 has good new drums, reverb, and new styles. But I think I like the "taste" of the sound of Genos.
All my friends, no one complained about Genos 2, only me.
The ordeal situation that my boss, the owner of the bar club, where I played 3 days a week, preferred the Genos 1. Last 2 weeks, I played with Genos 2. Tonight, I bring Genos 1. He said, "No more Genos 2, ok!". That is ridiculous.
But anyway I think the different taste of sound. Here is the piano Genos 2 that I modified reverb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9dsMu4JtCM&t=28s
Thanks for your feedback, Hoang!
By the way, please note that the global Reverb (and Chorus) effect types (System Effects) are set by the currently loaded STYLE or MIDI file, i.e. not by the Voice file used.
Best regards,
Chris
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Hi Hoang,
I suggest that as I have done, you review the 1600
registrations of the Genos Playlist (link in the Forum at the top of the Genos2
thread) (and 3200 OTS) that the professionals at
Yamaha have programmed. Many include voice and effects
edits and many include pianos. I think you will be
surprised at the variety. My interest is mostly in
orchestral music and the new Genos2 strings and brass
aling with the new reverb and touch curves (both
velocity and aftertouch) make these very expressive.
Combining the CFX and other voices also gives
interesting sonic combinations. I strongly suggest
that we all can learn from the pro programming of the provided
registrations and OTS.
Regards
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After 20 years of Yamaha 8) keyboards ( since the first Tyros).
there is always a lot of people who compare the newest model with his predecessor , and the people who can’t direct afford the newest model making excuses to themselves to say that the older model sounds better .
There is so much changed the passed years and improved so that we have no idea how good some sounds can upgraded with the new effect processors, Al the samples from the successor are on the latest keyboard in the Legacy memory and sounds exactly the same with the same settings (EQ , effects, etc,etc) . you can make the Genos 2 sounds in anyway you want. There is really no difference in the basic samples . But it is also possible to ruin the sound without any knowledge of the instrument. It’s all in your hands 🙌 to make it to your taste.
Just my humble opinion 8)
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Yes soryt,
Thats what I love about Yamaha keyboards you can make them your own by using the edit and settings provided.
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I totally agree with Eileen, you can easily make any Yamaha keyboard fit your own style of music.
I just finished getting the Romance Latino styles to work with my PSR-S950 and heard some really nice acoustic guitar setups in the OTS of these styles. It will take some time for me find a place for them in some of my existing custom styles. 8)
The Genos 2 is the best sounding keyboard but totally to big to drag around and use for gigs. It’s not a question of money but rather SIZE that makes it unpractical to purchase.
I am still patiently awaiting for the next SX999 keyboard to be released by Yamaha. Hopefully they will release it by this June or July, as I got ton of cash burning a hole in my pocket wanting to get out and stimulate the economy and generate some profits. ;D
Regards
Drake
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I strongly suggest that we all can learn from the pro programming of the provided registrations and OTS.
That remark bears repeating! The Yamaha sound/style developers are darned good. To this day I learn new things by taking their work apart.
Peace to all -- pj
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Got to admit I found it a bit puzzling that you are making all these points about the piano voices, but then the sample you post has it mixed with a string pad, So it's not really a piano voice anyway.
I cant help feeling that you are way overthinking all of this. What you play, and how well you play, are mega differences compared to the tiny differences in piano voices that seem to bother you. If you were a world class concert pianist trying to figure out whether to buy a 150k Bosendorfer, or a 250k Fazioli, then maybe tiny differences matter.
But on an arranger, which doesn't even have a real piano action, and using voices mixed with string pads.......hmmmm ??? ???
Shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic!
Mike
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I decide to sell Genos 2. If needed, anyone in this forum near DC Areas USA could please contact me by message for phone number. Buying new with only 2 nights gigging. Expansion CMS Grandpiano 1, CMS Nord Pop Piano, and many, full 3Gb.
Hi Hoang,
I've moved your post about offering your Genos2 for sale to the "Items for Sale" board:
>>> https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,69268.msg521408.html#msg521408
Best regards,
Chris
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That is crazy. Put tape over the "2". :D
Good luck -- pj
Unlucky, my boss is a musician. He was in the kitchen but knew which G1 or G2 just by listening to the sound.
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hi hoangbr2014,
I think, that in this case the discussion about difference between Genos1 and Genos2 is quite exaggerated -unless you have wrong settings on Genos2 or your boss owns Carnegie Hall.
As many of us here, I have watched some comparison videos where demonstrator actually tried hard to show the differences in sound quality between those two keyboard (advertising, of course).. and even then, it was many times hard to notice the difference (unless some effects have been used).
And you say that your boss notices the difference from the kitchen, saying that Genos2 is worse? Sorry, I simply don't buy that. I have a feeling that there's something else behind... "your older is better" is many times a sign that someone is trying to be smart (insinuating that you made wrong decision) or simply envy you -especially in case like this, where two keyboards are that similar.
Just my opinion,
Bogdan
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In all the hundreds of gigs I played I have had comments about the choice of music, comments about being too loud/too quiet - but never have I had anyone say I have the wrong keyboard model. That’s pretty invisible to listeners. The keyboard model might matter to the player, but seldom to anyone else.
Unless he is an arranger player/enthusiast, I don’t know how he would even notice.
Unless maybe you are constantly complaining and fiddling with sound adjustments instead of just entertaining his customers?
I have had equipment issues many times at gigs, but short of a complete loss of power or sound, I never let that be known to the listeners. That’s stuff the duck is doing under the water.
Mike
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That’s stuff the duck is doing under the water.
I love this expression. Made my day! ;D
I was going to (unproductively) tee-off on your boss's hearing. If he is really is a musician, I would ask him "What are you hearing or not hearing -- specifically?" If necessary, tell him that you're about to take a business loss on the keyboard and want to know why Genos2 is not acceptable, before you sell. He owes you an answer.
That's as productive as I can be on limited caffeine this AM. :) -- pj
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I’ll just give my thoughts on this as well. I too thought the OP’s comment that the boss noticed the G2 sounded worse than G1 from another room is not logical, as Mr. Spock might say :) And that other room was a nightclub kitchen, which probably is not quiet.
As an SX900 owner who might consider buying the G2 for it’s better piano, the OP’s G2 criticism is just too minor to sway me. I don’t doubt he is hearing differences in the strike sound, but this is yet another example of a subjective opinion of what a piano should sound like. Now he is selling the G2 along with 2 premium CMS piano packs he also loaded into it. I am figuring he has some expectations for a piano experience that probably can only can be satisfied with a high-end digital piano console.
Rich
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Never mind where he was, kitchen or wherever, I can’t remember a single hotel or restaurant manager/owner giving a darn about our equipment. They only cared that customers liked us and we were filling the tables every week.
Mike
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As an SX900 owner who might consider buying the G2 for its better piano, the OP’s G2 criticism is just too minor to sway me.
Rich , It definitely should not sway you. The OP is entitled to his view and it’s his money. If he is unhappy and can afford it, then writing it off is his prerogative.
If it was the view of a seasoned piano pro it should hold some weight with all of us, but I don’t think that is the case.
Mike
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I think I’d politely tell the boss where to get off, unless he’s footing the bill for the Genos 2, which I very much doubt.
Whilst I accept some people might not think they hear a difference, or can justify the cost of changing from Genos to Genos 2, there is no way in my opinion that anyone can say it sounds worse.The boss would be better of staying in the kitchen boiling eggs and leaving the guy to get on with entertaining the customers on what most regard as an excellent keyboard.
Russ
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Maybe the OP just wants someone to confirm his views to justify the decision to sell.
Mike
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Keep your G2 and just keep using the your G1 until late in 2025 when you tell your boss your G1 died. Tell your boss it is going to take a couple weeks to order yourself a new G2. Go rent a portable piano for those 2 weeks (or maybe you have a back up keyboard already to use such a case). You can then show up in 2 weeks time with your G2.
Using this idea saves you MONEY. You can then sell your G1 online.
PROBLEM SOLVED. But don't sell that G2 that is stupid. IMO
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Having G2, but still gigging G1. I spend $250 on expansion sounds. If the price negotiation does not fit my needs, I will keep and try G2 for about a year and then sell it at any price after that.
It seems that many in here just play Genos for passion. I play for a living. It is very clear, that everybody, including customers, my boss, my girlfriend (singer), and even me, says Genos 1 sounds better than Genos 2.
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Perhaps it is because you know the Genos1 much better
including sounds, reverbs and EQ and expect them to
be the same on Genos2? (And perhaps it must be EQ'd
differently in your venue.) I suggest that you treat Genos2
as a new instrument with its own characteristics
and learn its strengths from the Yamaha masters
that programmed the 1600 registrations included
in the Genos2 Playlist, with no expansion sounds needed. Wishing you all the best and eventual
enjoyment of the Genos2.
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If the G1 sounds better to you great! You can save money!
I play for a living too (technically, as do several others here on the board), and everyone I've shown (all my customers, coworkers, and even my wife) all agree G2 sounds much more *real*.
But as Safran just pointed out, a lot has to do with the speaker/eq/compresser/mixer setup. When I ran the G1 (its own unique sample, definitely improved over the T5 piano) and the G2 (same sample as CVP909/CLP785 but with no VRM) into the CVP909 speakers, the difference became much more obvious. Through the GNSMS01? very little difference in the CFX, but quite a noticeable difference with the U3 and the Character Grand.
I'm just saying what works for you works for you, not necessarily everyone else (and likewise, what works for me works for me, definitely won't work for everyone) but Safran is correct; your speaker/eq/mixer setup has a lot to do with it
We have 1 customer, who has been trying keyboards for 25 years now, and he always says (oh, when i try it at my restaurant, it just doesn't sound as good as my old Roland JV80 (from 1982) and he's probably correct.
I told him to bring his aging keyboard in, and through the GNSMS01 (I daisy chain everything into the same speaker set) and he was shocked at *how* much better a Genos or PA5x sounded over his Roland. I explained to him; it all depends on what you have everything optimized for.
Mark