Topic: How to find the melody?

[RoyB]

Mike and others

I agree with all of that, which is why the emphasis on the help tutorial part of the program will be on the KEY side of the program and practical chord usage and how chords relate to scales. I hope the program can be a useful tool to help learn and understand that, and help beginners to learn chords and to play in key scales other than C by seeing what chords work in those scales, and to help them learn those chords and use them in progressions. The working assumption is that there are some hobbyists who are beginners to keyboards and have little or no music theory knowledge, and who may not yet even be familiar with scales. The chord derivatives part is just a handy look-up reference for those (like me) who need to lookup chords from time to time for some chord derivatives in more complicated keys when they are used in sheet music (which is why I started the program in the first place for my own use).

The purpose of the program is to be a practical help tool, rather than a theory learning tool. So the emphasis of the help tutorial will be to demonstrate how chords relate to scales (using information from the program), how easily to get to the diatonic and chromatic (secondary dominant) chords (without getting bogged down in music theory) and why they are important, and then give simple practical examples of how they are used in chord progressions (I hope to give one example of a very popular song from the 1960s where all 6 of the diatonic and chromatic major chords shown, plus some of the minor chords, or their 7ths, are used just in the first verse).

Another aspect I will be promoting in the help/video tutorials is to practice using the chord inversions shown in the program, and I hope to demonstrate the practical benefits of chord inversions in the tutorials.

Regards

Roy

[RoyB]

Mike

Your point about some chord derivatives containing too many notes to play with one hand is noted in my program for those derivatives, meaning that the only way of attempting to play some of them on an arranger is by missing out a bunch of notes, and perhaps playing them inverted as well.

[mikf]

Roy, that’s great but I always get concerned when people mention theory. The fact is that unless you are trying to become an orchestrator or arranger or concert pianist, playing music is largely about understanding simple patterns. That’s all most people need, and what they should concentrate on. Theory makes it sound much more of a challenge than it actually is. For example there is no need to understand what chords are useful in which keys once you grasp that there are actually only 3 main chords and they are exactly the same pattern of major and minor thirds in every key. Similarly chord progressions in popular music are repeating patterns, with occasional exceptions.
When people fail to see this as a small number of patterns, music can seem like a tsunami of data, hundreds of chords, thousands of songs and become very intimidating. But when you think in patterns it becomes much simpler.
Mike

[RoyB]

Mike

We are on the same page. That is why the program and its tutorials together concentrate on the practicalities and are light on theory, and why they demonstrate how to arrive at the main chords and chords patterns and progressions for any key without having to know any music theory beyond what a chord is. Hopefully, in time, it would all become instinctive.

My own experience is that, after finishing my brief piano lessons at the age of 8, and before I moved on to home organs and then arrangers, for 25 years I played piano at home in my own way in a hybrid fashion, a mixture of playing by ear, playing by copying and playing by reading music. Although my early piano lessions taught me to read music (as long as it isn't too difficult), I tended not to stick to it and ended up improvising the left hand part around what was written. During this time, the type of chord patterns and progressions you talked about did become instinctive. When I listen to a song, I can sketch a visualisation of the chord progression in my head from how it sounds - it may not always be 100% at the beginning but it will be close.

I also developed a habit of playing chord inversions instinctively to transition between chords, and I use chord inversions alot. I was not aware of it at the time, but I now understand that it is a technique known as 'Voice Leading'.

[robinez]

I started Simply Piano this month.
I’m surprised about the results.

I tried Flowkey before.
But for me it wasn’t the help I needed.

lot's of good advice in this thread, but also advice that suits the more experienced players.

Personally I think that you started in a good way by starting to use simply piano. But I got the feeling that you stopped with this, which I can understand. I would advice you to go use the Yousician app, It's less serious than simply piano and more gamification elements to keep you motivated.

[andyg]

AI Fingered Mode can be your best friend for altered and exotic chords, of course, as well as tricky runs of simpler chords. But... you have to understand how it works! I will get around to writing that definitive guide at some point, but I'm still learning what it can do after 20 years!

Example: C7b9 - C G E Bb Db, can be played as Bb C Db E
               F9 - F A C Eb G, can be played as A Eb G
               G13 - G B D F A E, can be played as F B E

And I'd recommend going past simple chords, as and when you're ready. b9s, #5s, m7b5s etc all add a lot of character to a piece and often prevent a clash between chord and melody.

[pjd]

The fact is that unless you are trying to become an orchestrator or arranger or concert pianist, playing music is largely about understanding simple patterns.
...
Chord progressions in popular music are repeating patterns, with occasional exceptions.

Amen. A lot of folks on the Forum just want to have fun making music -- not take a seminar on music theory. 

All the best -- pj

[KurtAgain]

AI Fingered Mode can be your best friend for altered and exotic chords, of course, as well as tricky runs of simpler chords. But... you have to understand how it works! I will get around to writing that definitive guide at some point, but I'm still learning what it can do after 20 years!

Example: C7b9 - C G E Bb Db, can be played as Bb C Db E
               F9 - F A C Eb G, can be played as A Eb G
               G13 - G B D F A E, can be played as F B E

And I'd recommend going past simple chords, as and when you're ready. b9s, #5s, m7b5s etc all add a lot of character to a piece and often prevent a clash between chord and melody.

All three examples also work for me with the normal fingering type “Fingered” (i.e. without “AI”) and even with “Multi Finger”. So no AI mode is necessary for this.

As I understand "AI Fingered", a special feature is that you can easily play slash chords without having to double the bass note in the octave (is that the correct way to express it in English?).

An example that only works with AI Fingered:
C/G can be played as G C

This makes it easier to play bass lines.

Kurt

[BogdanH]

AI Fingered Mode can be your best friend for altered and exotic chords, of course, as well as tricky runs of simpler chords. But... you have to understand how it works! I will get around to writing that definitive guide at some point, but I'm still learning what it can do after 20 years!

Example: C7b9 - C G E Bb Db, can be played as Bb C Db E
               F9 - F A C Eb G, can be played as A Eb G
               G13 - G B D F A E, can be played as F B E

And I'd recommend going past simple chords, as and when you're ready. b9s, #5s, m7b5s etc all add a lot of character to a piece and often prevent a clash between chord and melody.

That's an example of a post that, in my opinion, scares away every hobby/beginner musician in this forum... and makes him feel inferior. The thing is, only those who already know such exotic chords understand what you're talking about.
Being at that, I think that "AI" fingering modes are meant for advanced musicians. We first need to learn how to properly play normal chords by using normal Fingered mode.

Just my opinion,
Bogdan

[andyg]

If you've read some of my many posts about AI Fingered Mode, one of the things that I emphasise is that it's 'transparent' to ordinary chords and you can start simply and it will grow with you.

My advice is, and always has been, that unless you need MultiFinger mode, you may as well switch to AI.

[DerekA]

Fingered On Bass works really well for me. I have always been able to get the chord I wanted. I have never really had good results with AI fingered, but maybe that's just me.

I find it really satisfying to play slashed chords, 9ths, sus2, sus4 etc - they can make a real difference to the overall 'flavour'

I learned to play (many) years ago with the "pointer system" which included learning inversions, which maybe helps me to finger these chords.

[Ron]

Let us not forget that for the complete beginner, Yamaha gives the option of Single Finger chords.  Good enough to get you started in making music which is what it is all about.  Then you can undertake understanding chords.

Ron

[KurtAgain]

In my opinion, there is a common misconception about AI Fingered.

AI Fingered is not about being able to play complicated chords in a slightly less complicated way. It's about being able to control the bass in an easier way than with Fingered On Bass.

Of course, this is not for complete beginners. But it can make the difference between whether the automatic accompaniment sounds boring or good.

[mikf]

Bogdan
There is nothing exotic about the chords Andy mentions. Every appropriate chord is just a collection of 3 or 4 notes that sounds good in the song harmony.
As I pointed out earlier in the thread, these chord names are not complicated. The naming system identifies the notes that need to be played, in a very simple way.
Of course, everyone has to step their way, beginners will initially ignore these chords. But they should not think that once they know two basic chords - major and minor - they can stop there. Extended and altered chords, inversions and chord voicing, are all important in getting music to sound great. Over time, they should learn about these things. As they should also learn how and when to add harmony notes in the rh.
I frequently see on this forum how people will go to great lengths to get a guitar voice to sound exactly like Hank Marvin, or a  clarinet to sound like Aker Bilk, yet not be willing to learn how to play Dmin7b5. Somehow they think this is complicated music theory. But it’s not, it’s just about getting music to sound better.
But there is no escaping that some of these chords, while relatively easy to play on a piano, using two hands, are hard to play on an arranger where the lh alone has to drive it. The AI system gives you a way to do this without tying your fingers in a knot.
Mike

[BogdanH]

hi Mike,
I have a great respect for your (and Andy's) knowledge and playing skill. But you forgot how it is being a beginner/hobby musician. My impression is, that even most of us here (including myself) are playing keyboard for several years, we are still beginners.. and will most probably remain beginners.

Of course we wish to be better players. But without having a real teacher, we can only get so far. Yes, over the time we learn some new chord, usually by coincidence when we learn some new song -that is, on the need basis. What I'm saying is, why would I bother with learning i.e. diminished chords, if I don't need them in songs that I play? However, one day I might stumble on a song that requires it and then I will just play it -maybe not even knowing it's called diminished (or until keyboard tells me what chord that is).
It's opposite if we have a teacher. In this case teacher would say "today you will start learning this song and by doing that, you will also learn new chord type, called diminished".

Yes, for us hobby players, every chord is "exotic" until we don't need it for the song that we wish to play -and I quite like that way of learning 

Bogdan

[mikf]

Bogdan
I think you have an impression that those of us who had Classical training were walked through things like fancy chords and their use by our piano teacher - and nothing could be further from the truth. My piano teacher taught me to play scales, arpeggios, read music, all only Classical and never mentioned such a thing as a chord.
Mike

[BogdanH]

That's interesting, Mike.. but yes, I can imagine that for piano playing (especially Classical music) learning approach is specific. When I was playing accordion as a kid (folk music mostly), the first thing that teacher taught me, was C-F-G major 

Greetings,
Bogdan

[pjd]

AI Fingered is not about being able to play complicated chords in a slightly less complicated way. It's about being able to control the bass in an easier way than with Fingered On Bass.

The AI system gives you a way to do this without tying your fingers in a knot.

Some of Yamaha's digital pianos provide rhythm+bass (P series) and auto-accompaniment (CSP series). The default chord recognition mode is what we know as "AI Full Keyboard". Yamaha never come out and say this explicitly, but reading between the lines, this is the default mode. CSP offers Fingered (with a split point) as an option.

This is sensible. Playing all of those tight note clusters in the left hand on piano is exactly what piano teachers tell you NOT to do.

All the best -- pj

[andyg]

Playing all of those tight note clusters in the left hand on piano is exactly what piano teachers tell you NOT to do.

I recognise that! As I've said before many times, piano teachers are usually very good at what they do. However long experience has shown me that some (thankfully not all!) do not appreciate the differences between piano and arranger keyboard. To them it's just a piano with extra buttons and drums and most of those in that category teach keyboard poorly. I've had to rescue quite a few students, often having to right back to basics for what the left hand does and explaining how to use the instrument. (One never used anything else other than piano and drums, with no keyboard split and all chords played in root position near the bottom of the keyboard!) Happy to say that they all survived, several going on to enjoy great success in their keyboard exams.

FWIW, apart from the very young, and those with a left hand disability, all my students start with fingered chords and standard notation - no 'EZ Play' music allowed.

[mikf]

I started to play by ear when I was only about 9 years old, and I learned all the chords by myself. Sometimes by trial and error, sometimes by looking at sheet music for popular songs. But always it was driven by trying to find the best sounding harmony for the accompaniment. And as you get more competent, you look for better and better chords to improve your playing. That drive to make it sound better should be a constant. On a piano you can’t do that thru better speakers, or tweaking voices or styles, you do it thru better playing, better harmony, better arrangement.
Mike