Topic: Midi Song To Style problem 2

[Fran MB]

Hello again,

After solving my previous problem thanks to the collaboration of Bogdan, I am unable to solve a problem associated with the previous problem.

In this case, after using the "style creator" of the Tyros 2 keyboard itself to change the NTT: MELODY BASS parameter to BYPASS, (depending on each style), another problem appears. In general, the style sounds good, but some sounds/phrases, etc., are lost, and the bass is heard too loudly, for example. In other cases, those phrases are lost and a melody of choruses appears that when changing chords, they are also not harmonized with the tone of the song.

I've tried in the Midi Song to Style to change the key in each section but the problem persists. I've also tried changing parameters, but without any criteria.

Also, if in the editor I reconfigure the section to its previous "MELODY" configuration in the NTT, it keeps that new chorus (in other styles, for example, the section reverts to its original erroneous configuration).

If anyone has time or is interested in trying, I leave in the link a couple of styles in SFF1, created in "easy mode" in the program. As mentioned in this forum, depending on the complexity or configuration of each midi, the results are very different, and the way to fix each style will be different. Thank you very much for your attention.

Best regards.

P.d.: In the case of the Xanadu style, after changing the NTT the result is correct, only that the bass is heard very loud, and the sound of the pad is lost.

In the case of We are the World, the chorus appears in the background. Even the speed changes from 76 to 65 beat

https://we.tl/t-eted66D8i9

[Rick D.]

Fran,

You should be able to adjust the levels of each part of the style in the Mixer. Be sure to choose the Style tab at the top.

Rick D.

[BogdanH]

hi Fran,
In general, BYPASS should never be used for Bass (unless you have a good reason). Because BYPASS does exactly what you describe: pitch doesn't change at chord change. That is, no matter what chord you play, bass will always play the same chord notes.
BYPASS must be used for DrumKit, because here we don't wish drums to change at changing chord. For other voices it's used only if song/music requires that. Example:
Tchaikowsky: Arabian dance -background orchestra plays the same chord trough whole music piece,
Me playing: The man who sold the world -guitar plays the same note sequence all the time, regardless the chord change (pay attention after 2m20sec).

About loudness of (some) voices in your styles...
In style, there are two types of loudness which influence each other:
1. Volume of particular channel (is set in Mixer)
2. Velocity of notes in that channel (is set in StepEditor)

For example, Bass in Xanadu doesn't have high volume -it's bass notes have too high velocities! Open any channel with StepEditor and you will see that all velocities are above 100. At such high velocities voices sound harsh/aggressive (as you were smashing the keys all the time).
What you need to do is, reduce velocities (in StepEditor) in all channels by a half, so they're in range 40-60 and when you're done, you can set volume of each channel (in Mixer) to about 100 (or to your liking).

Bogdan

[Fran MB]

Fran,

You should be able to adjust the levels of each part of the style in the Mixer. Be sure to choose the Style tab at the top.

Rick D.

Hi Rick D.,

Thank you very much  for your response.
I will find this option in the mixer.

Fran

[Fran MB]

hi Fran,
In general, BYPASS should never be used for Bass (unless you have a good reason). Because BYPASS does exactly what you describe: pitch doesn't change at chord change. That is, no matter what chord you play, bass will always play the same chord notes.
BYPASS must be used for DrumKit, because here we don't wish drums to change at changing chord. For other voices it's used only if song/music requires that. Example:
Tchaikowsky: Arabian dance -background orchestra plays the same chord trough whole music piece,
Me playing: The man who sold the world -guitar plays the same note sequence all the time, regardless the chord change (pay attention after 2m20sec).

About loudness of (some) voices in your styles...
In style, there are two types of loudness which influence each other:
1. Volume of particular channel (is set in Mixer)
2. Velocity of notes in that channel (is set in StepEditor)

For example, Bass in Xanadu doesn't have high volume -it's bass notes have too high velocities! Open any channel with StepEditor and you will see that all velocities are above 100. At such high velocities voices sound harsh/aggressive (as you were smashing the keys all the time).
What you need to do is, reduce velocities (in StepEditor) in all channels by a half, so they're in range 40-60 and when you're done, you can set volume of each channel (in Mixer) to about 100 (or to your liking).

Bogdan

Hello Bogdan,

Thank you very much again for your help, for your excellent explanations and for your quick response.

I thought that by changing the "melody" parameter to "bypass", it only affected the drumkit although it applied to all the voices in the style (I don't know how to explain it).

So shouldn't I use this option for the bass part when trying to correct the previous problem of drum sounds when changing chords? Or I can do the same, but as you say, adjusting the excessive velocities later, in the keyboard editor? I don't know if by making these adjustments, in addition to the fact that the bass will sound less loud, I will be able to hear the phrases that were in the style before making the parameter change to "bypass" again.


On the other hand, have you been able to try the "We are the world" style? In this case, as I explained, when making the change to "bypass" a phrase with a "chorus" voice appears that was not in the rhythm before making that change, and also the general beat speed of the style drops in the section, or sections in which are applies that change.

On the other hand, to lower the general volume of the style when creating it in Midi Song To Style, I have tried several things:

1. Lower the general volume of the style in the keyboard's "mixing console" and then save it in memory so that when you recover it it is at the appropriate volume.

2. Lower the volume of all voices before saving the style from the Midi Song to style program itself. (I haven't tried Jorgen's program to adjust the volume of a style yet).

From what you say, from the editor of the keyboard can I adjust the general volume of the rhythm, or lower the volume of each rhythm part, and overwritre it so that it is equal to the volume of the preset rhythms on the keyboard?

Thank you very much again, and sorry for so many questions and lack of knowledge on the subject.

Fran

[BogdanH]

I used MidiSongToStyle only a few times and so I'm not really familiar with it. And because of that I will stick to what can be seen and done on keyboard.

Each of eight channels (Rhy1...Phr2) is totally independent from each other and so we need to set SFF parameters for each channels separately. Means, it's impossible to happen that we set BYPASS for all channels at once by coincidence -it simply can not happen.
However it did happened to me a few times, that I changed SFF settings on wrong channel. The reason was, because I wasn't paying attention on what "Target channel" is selected in SFF options.
Again, BYPASS setting is only needed for Rhy2 channel (because this channels only allows DrumKit voices). If DrumKit voice is also used in Rhy1, then obviously, BYPASS must be used on that channels as well.
On remaining channels DrumKit voices can not be selected and so BYPASS shouldn't be used on them. In short, BYPASS means: "ignore chord changes when playing" -that's not what we want for Bass (we want Bass to change notes according to chord that we're playing).

So shouldn't I use this option for the bass part when trying to correct the previous problem of drum sounds when changing chords?

I don't really understand... what option? Drums and Bass are two different/independent channels and each of them requires different SFF/NTT settings: Drums require BYPASS and Bass is usually set to MELODY.

Or I can do the same, but as you say, adjusting the excessive velocities later, in the keyboard editor? I don't know if by making these adjustments, in addition to the fact that the bass will sound less loud, I will be able to hear the phrases that were in the style before making the parameter change to "bypass" again.

Here I'm lost again... Why do you wish to change phrases to bypass again? I repeat: bypass is needed for drums only.

As I have mentioned, volume and velocity are not the same things, although both influence loudness. Velocity is, how hard you hit certain key on keyboard: if you hit key harder then it will sound louder (regardless of volume setting). In style (=midi) velocity is recorded/stored as a number between 1 (very gently) and 127 (very hard). In your styles (that you posted) all notes in all channels have velocities above 100 (many are 127) and so, even if you set volume relative low, it still sounds loud and harsh. Usually notes velocities (at playing) are somewhere between 40 and 60 -imagine that as gently playing piano. How would piano sound if you would smash the keys all the time? -and that's exactly what your style is doing.

I have no idea why you have such high velocities in your styles... I assume you changed something in MidiSongToStyle and so I recommend that you study settings there. But as style is now, the only solution is to reduce velocities on keyboard in StepEdit. And remember: you need to do that for each channel (in each variation) separately. You can try with some other (midi) software, though.
After velocities are corrected, you need to set volume of each channel (in each variation) by using Mixer. By doing that you balance the volume of each channel to get whole style in balance (so it sounds normal). And when you achieve that, style should have similar loudness as other preset styles.

And here's my personal opinion... You have chosen the wrong way to create styles. MidiSongToStyle doesn't mean "easy way to create styles". It requires complete style creation knowledge and even then there's no guarantee for success. Then you will install a bunch of editing tools on PC, trying to correct styles (with a lot of guessing and trying)... and end up with nothing really useful.
As strange as it might sound: The "easy way" is actually creating styles on keyboard.

Bogdan

[pjd]

Hi --

I tried to follow the thread, but my head exploded. Too early, not enough caffeine.

The NTR/NTT explanations in the Reference Manual need a re-write by a good techncal writer. Anyway...

The manual (page 28 and 29) is explicit about NTR/NTT settings for the Rhythm Channels:

    * NTR = Root Fixed
    * NTT = Bypass
    * NTT Bass = Off

Thesse settings turn off all mapping.

INTROs and ENDINGs often use:

    * NTR = Root Transpose
    * NTT = Bypass
    * NTT Bass = Off

These settings will shift all of the notes according to the played root note. It leaves all of the intervals, chords, etc. alone. DJ styles use these settings everywhere.

BASS parts often use:

    * NTR = Root Transpose
    * NTT = Melody + Bass/Bass On

That doesn't mean "NTR = Root Fixed" is useless for bass parts. Sometimes you want a bass line to sound exactly as programmed (performed) but shifted. If NTT is Root Fixed, the intervals, etc. are preserved -- the pattern is simply shifted according to the root note. It's like playing a one-finger arpeggio pattern.

Hope these comments help. I've played with other settings, and -- trust me -- it's easy to send the bass line into the weeds.

-- pj

P.S. MixMaster can display the CASM info for each section. It's worth studying factory styles.

[BogdanH]

hi pj,

I tried to follow the thread, but my head exploded. Too early, not enough caffeine.
...

Hahahah 

I agree that ref.manual is quite confusing and need additional explanations. Many times it's needed to actually try some settings to figure out what's all about.. and then we say "aaaah, that's what they mean (in manual)". For example:

Ref.Manual SX900/700 page 27: SFF Source Root/Chord
IMPORTANT: Make sure to set the parameters here before recording. If you change the settings after recording, the recorded Source Pattern cannot be converted to the appropriate notes when changing the chord during your keyboard performance.
-this is not true! ...or can be true (depending what they mean by that).

I think, more appropriate would be something like this:
IMPORTANT: Make sure that Source Root parameter is set according to chord in which key sequence is recorded -otherwise pattern won't be converted to appropriate notes at chord changing.
For example, if key sequence is recorded in D, then Root must be set to D (either before or after the sequence is recorded).

... That doesn't mean "NTR = Root Fixed" is useless for bass parts...

-I fully agree.
All settings are useful. Which setting we use in particular case (channel) depends only on what we wish to achieve. Default settings (when we start to create new style) are only general guidance.

I'm still learning 
Bogdan

[Fran MB]

I used MidiSongToStyle only a few times and so I'm not really familiar with it. And because of that I will stick to what can be seen and done on keyboard.

Each of eight channels (Rhy1...Phr2) is totally independent from each other and so we need to set SFF parameters for each channels separately. Means, it's impossible to happen that we set BYPASS for all channels at once by coincidence -it simply can not happen.
However it did happened to me a few times, that I changed SFF settings on wrong channel. The reason was, because I wasn't paying attention on what "Target channel" is selected in SFF options.
Again, BYPASS setting is only needed for Rhy2 channel (because this channels only allows DrumKit voices). If DrumKit voice is also used in Rhy1, then obviously, BYPASS must be used on that channels as well.
On remaining channels DrumKit voices can not be selected and so BYPASS shouldn't be used on them. In short, BYPASS means: "ignore chord changes when playing" -that's not what we want for Bass (we want Bass to change notes according to chord that we're playing).
I don't really understand... what option? Drums and Bass are two different/independent channels and each of them requires different SFF/NTT settings: Drums require BYPASS and Bass is usually set to MELODY.
Here I'm lost again... Why do you wish to change phrases to bypass again? I repeat: bypass is needed for drums only.

As I have mentioned, volume and velocity are not the same things, although both influence loudness. Velocity is, how hard you hit certain key on keyboard: if you hit key harder then it will sound louder (regardless of volume setting). In style (=midi) velocity is recorded/stored as a number between 1 (very gently) and 127 (very hard). In your styles (that you posted) all notes in all channels have velocities above 100 (many are 127) and so, even if you set volume relative low, it still sounds loud and harsh. Usually notes velocities (at playing) are somewhere between 40 and 60 -imagine that as gently playing piano. How would piano sound if you would smash the keys all the time? -and that's exactly what your style is doing.

I have no idea why you have such high velocities in your styles... I assume you changed something in MidiSongToStyle and so I recommend that you study settings there. But as style is now, the only solution is to reduce velocities on keyboard in StepEdit. And remember: you need to do that for each channel (in each variation) separately. You can try with some other (midi) software, though.
After velocities are corrected, you need to set volume of each channel (in each variation) by using Mixer. By doing that you balance the volume of each channel to get whole style in balance (so it sounds normal). And when you achieve that, style should have similar loudness as other preset styles.

And here's my personal opinion... You have chosen the wrong way to create styles. MidiSongToStyle doesn't mean "easy way to create styles". It requires complete style creation knowledge and even then there's no guarantee for success. Then you will install a bunch of editing tools on PC, trying to correct styles (with a lot of guessing and trying)... and end up with nothing really useful.
As strange as it might sound: The "easy way" is actually creating styles on keyboard.

Bogdan

Hi Bogdan, with the explanations you have given me you have helped me to correct the defects of the style created and they've also answered my questions that you didn't know what I meant (because my questions didn't make any sense, I see now).

At the moment I'm not finding the STEP EDIT option in the Tyros' Style Creator to low de velocities, but I will.

The mystery of why phrases appear that did not exist in the rhythm, before changing the NTT parameter to by pass I have solved it by eliminating those phrases. In the Midi Song To Style program I found that those phrases didn't exist either when creating the rhythm, there was no channel phrase created (weird but I'm not going to think about it anymore).

The changes that occurred in the bar (when changing the NTT also to bypass) that also did not make sense I have corrected in the editor and only appear at the moment of playing the key that changes from one section to another, and only for a second. Pressing the Main C key, for example, increases the bar from 65 to 73 and back to 65.

On the other hand, It would be nice if when the volumes (balance not velocity) of each channel are adjusted (lowered) in the mixing console, those settings were recorded/saved/fixed in the style, since as far as I can see, that setting changes every time if you switch to another style or turn the keyboard off and on.

And here's my personal opinion... You have chosen the wrong way to create styles. MidiSongToStyle doesn't mean "easy way to create styles".

After this time, I agree with you. I suppose for a beginner it seemed like the easiest way to to, untill be able to gain knowledge and experience in style making. However, with your help I think I can achieve some good results for the time being. Maybe my problem has also been not having a keyboard that reads SFF2, because from what you told me, the rhythm that comes out of the MIdi Song To Style program (even in easy mode) does not give errors (key changes aside).

Thank you very much again Bogdan.

Yours Sincerely

Fran

[Fran MB]

Hi --

I tried to follow the thread, but my head exploded. Too early, not enough caffeine.

The NTR/NTT explanations in the Reference Manual need a re-write by a good techncal writer. Anyway...

The manual (page 28 and 29) is explicit about NTR/NTT settings for the Rhythm Channels:

    * NTR = Root Fixed
    * NTT = Bypass
    * NTT Bass = Off

Thesse settings turn off all mapping.

INTROs and ENDINGs often use:

    * NTR = Root Transpose
    * NTT = Bypass
    * NTT Bass = Off

These settings will shift all of the notes according to the played root note. It leaves all of the intervals, chords, etc. alone. DJ styles use these settings everywhere.

BASS parts often use:

    * NTR = Root Transpose
    * NTT = Melody + Bass/Bass On

That doesn't mean "NTR = Root Fixed" is useless for bass parts. Sometimes you want a bass line to sound exactly as programmed (performed) but shifted. If NTT is Root Fixed, the intervals, etc. are preserved -- the pattern is simply shifted according to the root note. It's like playing a one-finger arpeggio pattern.

Hope these comments help. I've played with other settings, and -- trust me -- it's easy to send the bass line into the weeds.

-- pj

P.S. MixMaster can display the CASM info for each section. It's worth studying factory styles.

Hello pjd,

Thank you very much for your contribution, it is certainly of great interest to me, just yesterday I was reading about these parameters in the Tyros 2 manual.

Greetins.

Fran.

[BogdanH]

hi Fran,
I forgot about the fact that you're having Tyros2 and so some options might have different names. I have checked Tyros2 Manual and I assume that StepEdit is EDIT tab in Style Creator.
But because EDIT tab isn't explained in manual, I don't know what options are there. Anyway, there should be something similar as shown in Manual on page 128. However, on that picture I don't see "MultiSelect" option and that would mean you would need to change the velocity of each note separately... which is simply too much work (there are hundreds of notes).
But you can also change velocities of all notes at once (in channel), by using VELOCITY CHANGE (see Manual p.165).

Being at Manual... you really should spend some time and checkout what all those settings mean -only in this case you will know what to change if something is not right.

It would be nice if when the volumes (balance not velocity) of each channel are adjusted (lowered) in the mixing console, those settings were recorded/saved/fixed in the style, since as far as I can see, that setting changes every time if you switch to another style or turn the keyboard off and on.

After you adjust volume of each channel in Mixer, you need to save the style: 1. adjust volumes, 2. Open Style Creator, 3. Save style.

As I mentioned, I have tried MidiSongToStyle a few times and I soon realized:
1. To create a decent style, a complete style creation knowledge is needed,
2. The success to create a style depends on source midi file (not all midi files are suitable for style creation),
3. MidiSongToStyle program has limitations which prevent to create style successfully,
4. MidiSongToStyle program contain bugs which sometimes lead to unpredicted results (style won't work properly).
See this thread.

What's the point to use a software that creates a style in 5 seconds, but then you need days/weeks to make corrections? -without a guarantee to succeed. It's a waste of time.

Bogdan

[pjd]

And here's my personal opinion... You have chosen the wrong way to create styles. MidiSongToStyle doesn't mean "easy way to create styles".

What's the point to use a software that creates a style in 5 seconds, but then you need days/weeks to make corrections? -without a guarantee to succeed. It's a waste of time.

I've come to a similar conclusion. I tried the MIDI Song To Style tool, again, when creating my latest style collection. I spent so much time backing out its changes and things, that I gave up and went back to the process that I know and (mostly) understand.

Fran, I totally missed "Tyros 2" and I apologize if I've recommended anything not supported. BTW, I develop my styles in SFF1  which only becomes a bother when handling Mega Voice.

Bon chance -- pj 

[p$manK32]

What's the point to use a software that creates a style in 5 seconds, but then you need days/weeks to make corrections? -without a guarantee to succeed. It's a waste of time.

The app should be renamed “MIDI to Style PARTS” because yes, it cannot spit out a whole usable style, but I do notice it can generate a ready made style part, ie. a nice instrument phrase or beat that can then be brought into another style for those that like to experiment that way. This part copying reminds me of the MODX where you can bring in an arp pattern/phrase from one performance into another. This is one usage for the app at least, but I sense most arranger players won’t use it this way. It almost seems like Yamaha released this app as a beta test for the arranger community.

Rich

[BogdanH]

@Rich
Yes, I agree... MidiSongToStyle might be useful to copy interesting phrases from midi, which we then use in our style project. However, we can't 100% count on it (if it will be able to do what we want).
I just think that time is much better spent if we decide to learn/use Style Creator as a main tool for style creation.

Bogdan

[p$manK32]

Bodgan,
Yes, even the style phrases from it are hit and miss. It’s like a happy accident kind of result.

Style Creator actually isn’t that bad as an interface. As a beginner playing around with it I am able to do certain things. But I know creating professional quality styles in it takes a lot of time.

Rich

[Fran MB]

hi Fran,
I forgot about the fact that you're having Tyros2 and so some options might have different names. I have checked Tyros2 Manual and I assume that StepEdit is EDIT tab in Style Creator.
But because EDIT tab isn't explained in manual, I don't know what options are there. Anyway, there should be something similar as shown in Manual on page 128. However, on that picture I don't see "MultiSelect" option and that would mean you would need to change the velocity of each note separately... which is simply too much work (there are hundreds of notes).
But you can also change velocities of all notes at once (in channel), by using VELOCITY CHANGE (see Manual p.165).

Being at Manual... you really should spend some time and checkout what all those settings mean -only in this case you will know what to change if something is not right.
After you adjust volume of each channel in Mixer, you need to save the style: 1. adjust volumes, 2. Open Style Creator, 3. Save style.

As I mentioned, I have tried MidiSongToStyle a few times and I soon realized:
1. To create a decent style, a complete style creation knowledge is needed,
2. The success to create a style depends on source midi file (not all midi files are suitable for style creation),
3. MidiSongToStyle program has limitations which prevent to create style successfully,
4. MidiSongToStyle program contain bugs which sometimes lead to unpredicted results (style won't work properly).
See this thread.

What's the point to use a software that creates a style in 5 seconds, but then you need days/weeks to make corrections? -without a guarantee to succeed. It's a waste of time.

Bogdan

Hi Bogdan,

Yes, I thought that the "step edit" you were referring in your previous messages it to could be in Tyros 2 the EDIT/STEP REC tab.

Indeed, although it does not appear in the manual, there is the MULTISELECT option. I'm experimenting with it, following your explanations, and also, as you say, studying the manual (although in this case this topic is not explained).

Your instructions on saving the volume and balance setting via the Mixer and Style Creator have been a great help to me.

I also have to try changing the speed in the VELOCITY CHANGE option.

The more I use the software MidiSong To Style, the more I agree with you that it's a waste of time, but I'm still spending time trying to figure out and correct the fact that: after changing the NTT of Rhy 2 from MELODY to BYPASS, a Rhy1 channel appears out of nowhere (it didn't exist in the MidiSong program nor did it appear in the style creator) and at the same time the channels Chd1 and Chd2 disappear (which did exist in the MidiSong program and also in the style creator) before making the change in the NTT.

On the other hand, I hope one day to be able to create a style from the Style Creator, and as you say feel the satisfaction of having created it myself.

Thank you very much again!

Best regards.

[BogdanH]

hi Fran,

...
after changing the NTT of Rhy 2 from MELODY to BYPASS, a Rhy1 channel appears out of nowhere (it didn't exist in the MidiSong program nor did it appear in the style creator) and at the same time the channels Chd1 and Chd2 disappear (which did exist in the MidiSong program and also in the style creator) before making the change in the NTT.

I have similar experience with MidiSongToStyle.
What you described happens because the structure of the resulting style (from MidiSongToStyle) isn't conform with Yamaha keyboard! That is, it can happen that resulting style contains (midi) elements at places where they aren't expected to be -and that's why I said MidiSongToStyle contain bugs.
Situation is obvious: even if you have perfect source midi file and all settings that you make are "by the book", the resulting style might still not work correctly. And then we wonder who's to blame: is midi file crappy or we did something wrong?

...
But I know creating professional quality styles in it takes a lot of time.

The term professional is quite stretchy... I prefer to say good enough for it's purpose 
The time needed to make a style depends: obviously it takes longer if we're in learning phase and will also sound kinda basic. But as we become more skilled, we gain on time and quality.
"a lot of time"... how much is that? A day? Or is a week already too much? Or is time just an excuse for not even trying?

I can understand that not everyone is interested on creating styles. But those who are trying the easy way by using MidiSongToStyle, certainly are interested. I'm only pointing out, that at the end, creating styles directly with Style Creator is faster and more important: result is predictable and reliable.

Bogdan

[Fran MB]

Hi Bogdan.

Interesting your comment on the same problem as me. Even more so when I suppose that:

The error occurred while you were working with SFF2 (format for which Yamaha designed the software), and also without subsequent conversion to SFF1 as is my case. It's evidence of what you've said several times that the program contains bugs.

I'm guessing you didn't try to figure out or fix the problem, and if you did, you didn't find an explanation or solution.
I say that because you create your own styles by yourself with style creator, and you didn't need to find a solution for it.

Now, I have found a way (a very simple way for a beginner) to "fix" this error of the program, which may only work for me (beginner). On the one hand I delete the new unwanted melodic Rhy1, and on the other hand, I copy the two channels Chd1 and Chd2 that disappeared from my own style (from another identical file) or another that is suitable. Previously (following the manual) I have made sure that these chord channels do not contain data, since they disappeared. But if not, they should have been deleted before copying the new chord channels (following the manual). So far it has given me a solution to this problem, but I know that there can be as many new problems as I try to create new styles, different new problems for each occasion. I have to thank the program and its failures (ironically) that have helped me learn things (for example, using "assembly mode" seemed very complex to me, and it's actually not that complex) that maybe I will be able to use when perhaps I was be able to create styles with the Style Creator, and also mostly thanks to all your great help.
Thanks a lot.
Fran.

[BogdanH]

hi Fran,
When I noticed similar style behavior as you described, I opened style with some tool on PC and started looking after unusual occurrences in style file. When I do that, I always use Wierzba/Bedesem's StyleFile Description.pdf as a reference.

I can't remember what exactly was wrong in my case. I only remember that the file structure wasn't right: there were midi commands or markers (in style) where I didn't expect them to be. If such style is opened in Style Creator, then Style Creator instantly corrects/removes strange (unexpected) elements... and that's why some track can suddenly appear out of nothing (or disappear).
And you're right: this has nothing to do with SFF2 to SFF1 conversion.

Anyway, when I saw that, I stopped my research and didn't look after solution -because as you say, it's impossible to predict what problem will arise next time with another midi file or if different settings are used in MidiSongToStyle.

If at all, then MidiSongToStyle can be more useful (at least to some degree) for those who are skilled enough in Style Creator. That is, as Rich above mentioned, to steal certain sequence from midi file: if it works then it's ok and if not... well, was worth a try 

Bogdan

[pjd]

Situation is obvious: even if you have perfect source midi file and all settings that you make are "by the book", the resulting style might still not work correctly. And then we wonder who's to blame: is midi file crappy or we did something wrong?

I'll vouch for this, too. My first experiment was reading a simple style which I had created via Sonar, etc. The MIDI Song To Style program absolutely blew it apart! Arg.

Jorgen Sorensen's tools are pretty decent, especially for working in SFF1 natively.

All the best -- pj

[Fran MB]

Hello Bogdan,
Thank you for the clarification and also for the PDF, I will certainly read it very carefully. It is also interesting to know that the Style creator automatically corrects possible defects that can cause channels to appear or disappear unexpectedly.

Fran

[BogdanH]

@pj
I never tried Jorgen's MidiToStyle (maybe I should), but I would definitely recommend to try it. Being only SFF1 capable is not a limitation at all -we can load resulting SFF1 style in SFF2 keyboards without a problem. And if we edit SFF1 style in Style Creator (to make fine adjustments), it will be automatically converted into SFF2 at saving.
Even further.. if we don't use SFF2 style specific features, then it's irrelevant if it's SFF1 or SFF2: it will work and sound the same.

@Fran

.. It is also interesting to know that the Style creator automatically corrects possible defects..

Not defects only: it corrects everything that's not as expected.
For example:
As we know Fill-In length is limited to exactly one bar. But once I needed two bar fill-in and so I created two bar fill-in by using MixMaster. Style worked perfectly... but only until I opened the style in Style Creator: fill-in was automatically reduced to one bar -even there was nothing wrong technically.

Bogdan

[pjd]

@pj
I never tried Jorgen's MidiToStyle (maybe I should), but I would definitely recommend to try it.

Being only SFF1 capable is not a limitation at all -we can load resulting SFF1 style in SFF2 keyboards without a problem.

I mainly use Jorgen's other tools: Split/Splice, CASM Editor, OTS Editor. I do all the regular MIDI stuff in SONAR including the MIDI markers. It's burned into my memory at this point and not a big deal.

The main loss with SFF1 is the ability to handle Mega Voice in a single part. The melodic and effect stuff must be separated into two parts (tracks). The other loss is the ability to use chord stroke shorthand to hand-off chord generation/fingering to the SFF GE engine.

Anyway, this going into the weeds...    pj

[BogdanH]

...
The main loss with SFF1 is the ability to handle Mega Voice in a single part. The melodic and effect stuff must be separated into two parts (tracks). The other loss is the ability to use chord stroke shorthand to hand-off chord generation/fingering to the SFF GE engine.

SFF2 has advantages of course, but for midi song to style creation, these advantages are irrelevant: SFF1 already has all options that are actually needed. If at all, then we might make use of SFF2 advantage after the style is created.

For example: SFF2 has Guitar mode which doesn't exist in SFF1. But at midi song to style conversion, it's totally useless because midi files never contain Guitar mode notation. Similar for Mega voices: if we decide to use them, then we will need to modify notes parameters (velocity) after the style is created.

I know.. I'm repeating myself 
Bogdan