Topic: Yamaha PSR SX900 Style search is broken completely unusable

[JukkaSthlm]

Thank you for this forum and for your support. In short: The Yamaha PSR SX900 Style search is broken completely unusable, perhaps due to the appearance of many thousands (including old, but TYROS 3-working) style files in the fall of 2022.

Nothing helped. It didn't help to make facotory settings, nor anything else. After a 2 month warranty battle, I got a new Yamaha PSR SX900.

I had paid a 5-year additional 5% warranty at an additional cost. Otherwise, my Yamaha SX 900 would have been left second broken and unsold worthless. Just think how important Style Search is, because there are no more Ballad and Waltz departments, but they have been mixed up with other genres.

This same danger still exists with the PSR SX900 because Yamaha hasn't done anything about it.

On this forum, I found in the fall of 2022 that the same thing had happened to the other two.

I tried then to post here, but this forum's spam blocking was so strong that I couldn't get here to the forum to write, with my own domain mail address ending in the Swedish standard domain: .nu. Sweden's other top domain official .nu counted as spam! Sweden's official own top domains are .se and .nu

But now then I came up with the idea of signing up here with a Gmail address, so I can get this thing for the benefit of many SX 900 owners.

Other than that, I'm happy with the SX 900 and I still have a fully functional TYROS 3 from 2008 as well as a PSR SX 910 arranger. I've done myself a volume, tempo, parameter pedal for the SX900 or a cheap "FC7" pedal modification that was successful. I think write it later here.

I use it as a tempo pedal. For example, in Hebrew songs, the tempo changes, which belongs to the style. The tempo pedal doesn't get YTyros3, but the volume and sostenuto etc.


Here's a closer look at what happened and what was done.






In these images, you will see faulty, strange Style file names or parts thereof that tell you about a messed up USB memory cache that could not possibly be reset. Yamaha service also couldn't get it reset, or couldn't get the instrument repaired, and they had to give a new instrument.
This clutter in memory prevents the style search function from being used. There will be no decent search results!

This is a document about an underlying SX 900 bug that I understand hasn't been fixed yet with firmware updates! So be careful with your SX900! My newest Arranger is the PSR SX900, purchased in the fall of 2020. But after 2 years I noticed that Style Search no longer works.

The reason was that I had put all the possible Style files on the PSR SX900 and its USB cache memory got messed up. I tried 5 times to reset factory settings and it didn't help. Fortunately, I had paid the SX900 an additional 5-year warranty, about 5% of the additional price. Swedish www.gear4music.se movement.

I took the device to warranty service, and after the first month they tried to claim that there was nothing wrong with the device! Although style files cannot be retrieved.

Then I complained to the dealership and demanded that they repair the SX900 or replace it with a new one. Two months passed the time, without any compensation but I got a new PSR SX900. It still carries the same risk of breakage.

So far I've put Genos styles in there and just a little bit more. But my all style files with many thousands and including old Style files, indeed broke the PSR SX900 style search function completely unusable!!!

This danger is still Yamaha has not fixed the bug with a new firmware on duty!

From this forum I got help and also proof to the seller shop that this can happen.

Thanks to you and here's the same document, and the information that Yamaha has not fixed this issue.

The same Firmware v 1.11 is still the latest with which this Style Search function breakdown has occurred.

I already have a long Yamaha Arranger history and I also still work with the TYROS 3 as well as the PSR S 910.

If anyone has any further information about this, that specifically what then is it the Yamaha Style file type that completely violates the Yamaha PSR SX900 style Search functionality then please comment here?

It may be that many thousands of Style files, exported via USB, were too many, and it seems that the USB cache memory got messed up and the factory settings reset did not reset it. Also, it doesn't help to disconnect the USB. It doesn't help that the SX900 is allowed to stay on for an extended period of time!

I'll attach here two photos of how Yamaha's memory and display got messy and broken!

In them, the USB memory is disconnected.  Just the instrument is stuck! But you can play in that space, by the way.

I had spent many evenings trying to solve the problem myself, but it didn't help. Yamaha's big manufacturer's arranger broke, i.e. because of Yamaha's own style files being put in and used.

As I said still has this danger. The firmware version is still 1.11 the latest on which this happened, and no newer one has come out yet?

As an electronics designer and serviceman, I also have access to the Yamaha maintenance menu and rewriting the firmware there didn't help either, and neither did anything else. From this firmware re-flash burning warnings that it can be a dangerous thing. Well, it didn't turn out that way, though. Don't give it a try.

Now when I look at myself these photos again that I have left is it possible that this Rock1 style from the collection SD1to2k may be the cause of the failure? (ROCK1 shows a picture with a bug on top).



In first pictures in begin you see style name text "ROCK1". In this picture you see it from my computer.




PSR SX900 Specs is only GE style files, which is SFF2.

It is at least a good idea to avoid these old SFF1 style files. Although apparently, they too should work, that not beak the instrument!

This file has come to me from some musician friend who bought some style collection online some years ago for a few dozen USD$.

SFF GE – (Style File Format Guitar Edition, called also SFF2) is a newer format, with support for styles that use the Mega Voice, has a larger number of parameters for the guitar parts.

So this is possible that SFF1 like Yamaha 2000 style files break the PSR SX900 Style search function, but for sure can't this be said?

But this has all happened and is true. Fortunately, I paid an additional warranty 5 Years for 5% of PSR SX900 price ca. 2000 EUR, and then got a new PSR SX900.
Happy Easter!

Yamaha arranger regards

Jukka, Stockholm Sweden

[DrakeM]

How many "rock1" styles do you need??

Pick one and DELETE the rest ... problem solved (most likely).

[mikf]

Agree with Drake, the problem is likely you have way too many styles. It's almost inevitable that there will be 'problem' styles in there somewhere and then you will have an impossible job of finding needles in haystacks. Its a trap many arranger owners fall into. Like hoarders who keep everything but when they need a screw or nut for a job go to the store and buy new ones anyway, because thats easier than looking in their 'hoard'.
Collect only quality styles that you have audited and need rather than huge collections that will not only contain many styles that are problematic, but many you never use.
Mike

[overover]

Welcome to the PSR Tutorial Forum JukkaSthlm!

I haven't read your (quite long) post completely. But the main reason is probably files on the USB stick whose file names start with the characters "._" (period + underline characters) . These are (very small) auxiliary files that are required/generated by macOS and are also written to the USB stick.

If you have a Mac computer, you can use a tool like "OptimUSB" to clean USB sticks of files not needed under other operating systems.

On Windows you can simply search for "._*" in File Explorer to display and then delete all files on a USB stick whose name starts with "._". It is important that the display of hidden files and folders is activated in the Windows Explorer options. P.S. If the USB stick contains a large number of files, the cleaned stick must remain connected to the (switched on) keyboard for a relatively long time (several hours) so that the search index is updated.


Hope this helps!

Best regards,
Chris

[overover]

Some additions: If in your case it is about styles from internet sources, KORG styles could be among them. These also have the file extension ".sty", but have a completely different format, so they are not compatible with Yamaha keyboards.

The SX900 (like e.g. Tyros3 and PSR-S900) can load and play SFF2 and SFF1 styles.

Keyboards with older operating systems (up to Tyros5 and PSR-S975) possibly ignored such "._" files, while newer, Linux-based models such as PSR-SX or Genos have problems with them.


Best regards,
Chris

[Aquilauno]

I suspect that the problem represented is closely related to the of this another topic: https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,65804.0.html
Years ago, as soon as I bought the SX900, I noticed a strange behavior of the search function, I was repeatedly told (from friends of the Forum) that when a USB was inserted, indexing started and after a certain time (depending on the number of stored files) the index is updated, most likely this applies to owners of the Genos, but may not apply to "SX" Series.
I tried with a new USB and a max 800 styles stored in folders and subfolders (for each subfolder there are no more than 50 styles).
The indexing was completed after a few hours (a warning appeared on the display) but the indexing has not led to the solution and the search continues to display files (and their links) that are no longer present. The problem is real and concrete and I think it is due to an error of the O.S. (created for Genos and adapted to the SX series, and this could be due to some compatibility problem missed by the Yamaha programmers),, moreover that some keyboards of the "SX" series remained frozen to the logo after having managed files in the favorites is a fact that led to the release of firmware 1.05 which then solved the problem , so there is a precedent that supports my hypothesis on the O.S..
Having said this, I agree in the need to clean up all those unnecessary styles and to organize the USB stick in an orderly and functional way, to facilitate future searches, , because will not there a new firmware update for to solve this problem, we will have to live with that. Pietro

[Divemaster]

I read this post with great interest, and Yes, I agree that "style overload" is maybe something that we may all be a bit guilty of.

But I still don't understand why, having removed any USB stick/s, a FACTORY RESET will not restore this SX900 to it's out of box original settings? Is that not the whole point of a factory reset.....
So why, when no usb is present, doesn't a FR reset everything to the original 'out of box' condition?
Interested to know this, because I had always assumed that FR did just that.

Keith

[Aquilauno]

Hi Keith, the only explanation is that the indexing on the SX900 has been irreparably compromised (due to the large number of archived files), it is no longer reset or overwritten despite the factory resets, even more I think of an O.S. problem. A similar thing happened to those who had memorized a maximum number of favourites (i have had this problem), when restarting the boot was not completed and the "SX900" remained frozen on the logo without starting up, also in that case the factory reset but did not solved the problem, like if the boot file was irreversibly compromised, the problem was solved by Yamaha with the release of firmware 1.05 /1.10. Some people thought it was a motherboard failure, but I was convinced it was a software problem and it was.
At the time, we were in the middle of the covid 19 pandemic, I even wrote to Yamaha Japan, and they answered me, through the European branch, of bring the SX900 (in Rome Stores) to assistance, two weeks later came out the new firmware 1.05  which saved me from having to bring the keyboard to assistance . A Brazilian guy (I think) had the same problem but he solved it with firmware 1.10 (1.05 didn't work for him).Also in the case of JukkaSthlm, it would seem that the excess of files may have compromised that part of memory intended for the index. Likely that a new firmware could solve this problem, but I doubt it will be released if the problem remains marginal and does not compromise the functioning of the keyboard in a heavy way. but hoping costs nothing  .Pietro

[Divemaster]

Thank you very much for this Pietro, which explains the issue very clearly. I just hope it never happens to my SX700.
However as a safeguard, I've now spent some time on my pc this morning splitting my collections onto more memory sticks to try and avoid possible problematic file conflicts all being on one usb.

Thank you
Keith.

[Lefty]

Thank you for this forum and for your support. In short: The Yamaha PSR SX900 Style search is broken completely unusable, perhaps due to the appearance of many thousands (including old, but TYROS 3-working) style files in the fall of 2022.

I have the same problem with my SX900.  I also performed a factory reset, then used a new (never used) USB stick, but the problem persists.  The search feature on my SX900 is completely unusable.

In my case, I have a Mac computer that I downloaded the purchased files from this website.  I then moved the files to USB, and inserted it into the keyboard.  Search has never worked since.

The problem, as far as I have determined, is that the keyboard operating system does not remove certain indexes from its internal storage after re-indexing.  For instance, if you have a root folder named "PSRFOLDER" that contained any ._ files, even when you insert a different/new USB that does NOT contain a "PSRFOLDER", the keyboard OS will display the old pathname beginning with "PSRFOLDER" and a ._ file that is causing the error.  And yes, I did give it several hours for it to reindex prior to performing the search.

So this is an operating system problem that is not solvable by end users.  It must be fixed by Yamaha.  And if Yamaha is going to say they support Apple products, their keyboard OS must be robust enough to not choke and puke on ._ files.  Or any other improperly formatted files for that matter.  That is so 1970s.

Craig

[Bill]

It must be fixed by Yamaha.  And if Yamaha is going to say they support Apple products, their keyboard OS must be robust enough to not choke and puke on ._ files.  Or any other improperly formatted files for that matter.  That is so 1970s.

Craig

Hi Craig

The problem is more complex than just odd files (._).
Although the Mac files are only a few bytes long and don’t take up any room on the Mac filing Systems, on any think USB Stick  that uses the windows FAT32 format, it IS A Big problem. Each file will occupy 4k bytes and eventually consume a lot of memory.  Therefore you will loose a lot your valuable USB Memory. Multiply 4k by several thousand and you soon  loose all your free space. In addition these metadata files also limit the number of files you can have in each folder, in fact it reduces the number of files you can have to LESS than half.

So it’s not totally Yamaha’s fault. It’s equally down to using an old FAT32 filing system to maintain compatibility with windows.

Bill


Edit 2023-04-08 by overover: Missing square bracket added so that the quoted text is displayed correctly

[Bill]

But I still don't understand why, having removed any USB stick/s, a FACTORY RESET will not restore this SX900 to it's out of box original settings? Is that not the whole point of a factory reset.....
So why, when no usb is present, doesn't a FR reset everything to the original 'out of box' condition?
Interested to know this, because I had always assumed that FR did just that.

Keith

Hi Keith

Are you doing a soft reset or the full hard reset.  I understand that a soft reset only clears your settings.  It would be interesting to see ‘ hear what you get after a Full Hard reset.

Bill

[Divemaster]

Hi Bill
No, fortunately, I haven't had to do this.

I was responding to ukka and Pietro's posts on this topic, in which they say that factory reset doesn't work in the circumstances they have described. That got me doing a good file sort out yesterday!
I've only reset once, on my last SX700, when I sold it..... not on my current one, and it all went fine, but it's a problem that it seems only Yamaha can solve.

Thank you anyway.
Keith 

[andyg]

Although the Mac files are only a few bytes long and don’t take up any room on the Mac filing Systems, however on any think the uses the windows format it IS A Big problem. Each file will occupy 4k bytes and consume a lot of memory.  Therefore you will loose a lot your valuable USB Memory. Multiply 4k by several thousand and you soon  loose all your free space.

It's not really a problem, is it? 4kb is a tiny amount. Let's take 4kb multiplied by, say, 2048 = 8Mb. What is 8Mb when you compare it to even a small USB stick of maybe 4 or 8GB these days. It was certainly an issue years ago in the days of floppy disks and the small amount of User memory in something like a PSR2000, but surely not these days.

I've been as guilty as many of us in being a 'style collector' in the past, but just how many styles do you really need? I culled a lot of them and I occasionally still go through the ones that are left, like some of the 'song specific' styles like those in Harry's overall excellent collections. I'll throw out any duplicates first of all and then ditch the ones that really are not that good, just lightly rebalanced internal styles given a new name etc. Same with the Waltztime collections, many duplicates in there!

I now keep just what I need in User on the Genos. If I want to do a search, I'll unplug the USB stick first. I might do some searching on the laptop and copy a few possibles to a 'Possibles' folder, and try them out on the keyboard. Having many thousands of styles is just crazy, IMHO.

[Lefty]

I've been as guilty as many of us in being a 'style collector' in the past, but just how many styles do you really need? I culled a lot of them and I occasionally still go through the ones that are left, like some of the 'song specific' styles like those in Harry's overall excellent collections. I'll throw out any duplicates first of all and then ditch the ones that really are not that good, just lightly rebalanced internal styles given a new name etc. Same with the Waltztime collections, many duplicates in there!

I now keep just what I need in User on the Genos. If I want to do a search, I'll unplug the USB stick first. I might do some searching on the laptop and copy a few possibles to a 'Possibles' folder, and try them out on the keyboard. Having many thousands of styles is just crazy, IMHO.

The problem on my SX900 isn't how many style files I have on my USB stick, it is that once the keyboard OS found files it could not deal with, such as the ._ files, search never works again.

Because the keyboard OS does not rid itself of the indexes containing files it choked on, those files are always returned in every search.  Then any file I choose returns an error.  This isn't just styles either.  It's any file type I search for, styles, midi, registrations, etc.

Even when I remove the USB and turn the keyboard on, searches still return those ._ files.  Then the keyboard gives the error "No USB flash drive is connected".

So the result is that the search function on my SX900 is completely unusable.

Craig

[EileenL]

It takes time for the keyboard to update these files. If you remove the USB flash drives then turn the keyboard on and leave it for 15 minuets before doing anything it should clear the memories out.

[Lacko]

The problem on my SX900 isn't how many style files I have on my USB stick, it is that once the keyboard OS found files it could not deal with, such as the ._ files, search never works again.

Craig

Basic question here is not why keyboard OS cannot deal with some kind of files, but why anybody uses files which his/her keyboard OS cannot deal with. There is probably no problem when using only valid files.

[Lefty]

It takes time for the keyboard to update these files. If you remove the USB flash drives then turn the keyboard on and leave it for 15 minuets before doing anything it should clear the memories out.

Thanks for the reply Eileen.  Yep, I know that, and the keyboard has had perhaps 40 hours over the last 2 months to update those indexes. It just does not remove entries to paths that no longer exist if they contain an entry for one of the ._ files.

Craig

[Aquilauno]

Want someone to answer this question, when you say that after a certain period of time the keyboard index refreshes or resets, your experience is based about you owning a SX series keyboard? or based on your experience with Genos or Tyros? if you don't own an "SX" then you have to trust the SX900 owners who keep saying that what works on the Genos /Tyros doesn't seem to work on the "SX".
That said, the big question is: is there any SX900 owner who has no problems with indexing and search? Because beyond the number of files on the usb stick even if few as in my case, my SX900 after hours of waiting and after the on-screen warning that the indexing has finished and the index has been updated, continue to display hundreds of results (styles and related links) that no longer exist
Now I'm going to try and see if Eileen's suggestion works. If doesn't work, the suspect n° 1 remains an O.S bug on the SX series, i.e. a software problem escaped the Yamaha designers, unless an SX900 owner says that the function on his keyboard works perfectly and displays and loads the files from USB without exception.
I have many styles, not all stored on USB, many are GIG collections of members of this Forum, if I do a search for example "Sinatra" the results should be only and exclusively files containing the name of the singer searched for.
Not is so, the number of results exceeds the display capacity of the SX900, many of the files do not contain the name you are looking for, and many links are non-existent because the folder or file has been deleted or renamed ago time.
This is a behavior that has no explanation, except that the excessive number of files (once it has occurred,I presume, for the first time) has corrupted the search function which is no longer recoverable even with a total (hard) reset of the factory settings, no errors or underestimation by the owner of SX900, trust me.
It's something that three years ago I had already represented in a topic, I thought it was me who didn't know how to use the function, I didn't look into it, now after years other users who own the SX900 report the problem, the same malfunction, at this point I think there is little doubt that the problem is concrete and real, I can survive this, but it's annoying, now if I need to search for a certain song, a certain singer, I can't rely on the search function , and also applies to recordings, voices etc. etc.

[Lefty]

Basic question here is not why keyboard OS cannot deal with some kind of files, but why anybody uses files which his/her keyboard OS cannot deal with. There is probably no problem when using only valid files.

That is a great observation Lacko.  Since the files in question are invisible files, (they don't show on your computer screen) folks don't know they exist until the Keyboard gives an error. 

I guess I should have known that my Mac creates these invisible files, and that the keyboard isn't able to deal with them.  Completely my fault. Nuff said.

[Aquilauno]

I reply to Lacko and Lefty, the presence of "strangely" renamed files is meybe just coincidence, I don't have a mac, I don't have files with strange names, I have the same problem. I don't understand why this difficulty in taking into serious consideration that it could be an O.S. problem, recalling once again that the operating system was born for Genos (built for his specific characteristics, functions and quantity and type of memories), while for the "Sx" series it has been adapted to its weakened "little sisters", which are very different in terms of specifications, functions and memories, as I said, it is a nice dress but it is not made to measure. This may have created problems, the problems that actually existed and led to the release of firmware 1.05, 1.10 and 1.11 which "corrected the shot", but perhaps there is still something left to fix. There would be nothing strange about that.
Instead, SX owners who report this problem continue to be treated as if they were just incompetent collectors of mountains of useless styles, strangely renamed and apparently the source of the problem in question. Even if it was this, the excessive number of styles or the name with which they are renamed, it should not lead to anomalies or malfunctions, without any controversy on my part, we discuss to understand, understand for find a solution. Pietro 

[Lefty]

Hi Pietro,

I'm sure the symptoms you describe are due to the same keyboard OS bug(s) that have made the search function unusable on my keyboard.  I've seen enough posts about problems from others to believe this is a much broader problem than folks here want to admit.  What I really care most about is if/when Yamaha is going to do something about this.

I don't think we should have to separate our stuff out into small collections so our keyboards will work well.  Modern operating systems handle hundreds of thousands of files with ease. File handling must be robust. Improperly named and improperly formatted files must be managed gracefully by the operating system.

Pietro, have you tried removing all USB drives from your keyboard and allowing it plenty of time to index?  I have done that several times now, and even with no USB stick in the keyboard search returns files that are on the USB.

Craig

[Amwilburn]

Lefty: yup, the bug is returning a larger results list than the fixed array can display. It happens from having too many styles on one *or* several USB sticks; it doesn't matter if you break them up over several sticks. As far as I know, there's no way to fix it. The Genos does the same thing, but it appears that the array size is much larger, but it still happens. I've seen what Jukka said happen, and even deleting the styles afterward doesn't appear to fix the issue; the indices are still there even after the USB is removed.

The only way is to avoid having this happen by not dumping every rock style (or multiples of whatever) on a stick (or multiple sticks) in the first place, but once it's happened, the index search is hooped. The keyboard still works, but the search will always return too many results, even a system reset does nothing (which is incredibly odd... you *should* be able to clear the flash ram area of the OS).

You know... I don't have the crashed unit here anymore, but it might be worth re-installing the OS?

Mark

[Bill]

SX owners who report this problem continue to be treated as if they were just incompetent collectors of mountains of useless styles, strangely renamed and apparently the source of the problem in question. Even if it was this, the excessive number of styles or the name with which they are renamed, it should not lead to anomalies or malfunctions, without any controversy on my part, we discuss to understand, understand for find a solution. Pietro 

Hi Aquilauno

I don’t think any one is suggesting any incompetence or collecting hoards of useless styles. We are simply trying to help as best we can.  Maybe I should just sit back or do something else that people may appreciate.
One question though, have you reported your problem to Yamaha Customer Service / Technical Support, the more people that make a direct complaint / query, the sooner you will get a solution.

Bill

[mikf]

Pietro
This is not Yamaha, it’s a forum of ordinary people with no agenda, who try to help …..if they can. The fact is that most people using Yamaha arrangers do not seem to have experienced this problem.
The OP starts this thread by talking about issues searching through “thousands” of styles, so it’s not unreasonable to suggest it may relate to the volume of styles collected. You may think that it shouldn’t happen anyway, regardless of size of style collection, but many of us have experienced issues with corrupted files in large, unaudited collections, so we learned to avoid it.
I sense your frustration that you cannot get a solution to this problem, but I am afraid that it seems no-one here can help.
Mike

[Aquilauno]

Hi Milf, evidently in translating into English, I represented the wrong words, I apologize if I gave the impression of being offensive or if I have been, it was not my intention. Esteem and admiration for those who try to help, I just wanted to clarify that if something works well on the Genos, it doesn't mean that it works well in the same way on the "SX" series, and that it could be an O.S. problem. I made some considerations and clarifications, in the section dedicated to the sx900/700, as having the SX900 I am able to confirm or deny the malfunction, in response to this help topic, I did not say that this forum is Yamaha assistance, and I know very well that every answer is given to help.
Since I think it is probable that the malfunction is caused by an operating system bug, I invite all those who have this malfunction to report it to Yamaha assistance and wait confidently for a possible update or alternatively switch to Genos ... which wouldn't be too bad apart from the price lol. Pietro
PS: I apologize to Lefty and Lazko in particular, for my exaggerations. So Lefty if I understand correctly, after several attempts, have you overcome the problem represented in the photos? and now the search works? I will try again as Eileen suggested this time without the USB plugged in and let you know.

[Lefty]

Lefty: yup, the bug is returning a larger results list than the fixed array can display. It happens from having too many styles on one *or* several USB sticks; it doesn't matter if you break them up over several sticks. As far as I know, there's no way to fix it. The Genos does the same thing, but it appears that the array size is much larger, but it still happens. I've seen what Jukka said happen, and even deleting the styles afterward doesn't appear to fix the issue; the indices are still there even after the USB is removed.

The only way is to avoid having this happen by not dumping every rock style (or multiples of whatever) on a stick (or multiple sticks) in the first place, but once it's happened, the index search is hooped. The keyboard still works, but the search will always return too many results, even a system reset does nothing (which is incredibly odd... you *should* be able to clear the flash ram area of the OS).

You know... I don't have the crashed unit here anymore, but it might be worth re-installing the OS?

Mark

Thanks Mark!  The important thing is knowing that this behavior is a known bug.  Thank you so much for verifying this.  I'm putting the following info here for SX900 owners whose Keyboards are still working, and would like to keep them that way.

How did I trigger this bug?
I bought this Yamaha keyboard a couple of months ago, and joined the PSR Tutorial Forum the same day.  To support the forum, I purchased several "packs", downloaded them, then put them on a USB.  Once I put that USB into my SX900, the search function never worked again.  (I can't remember if I even tried search prior to that.)

FYI, this problem is larger than just Styles.  My SX900 will not successfully search for any file types. Registrations, Styles, Pads, Voices, Midi, and Audio searches all fail.  And apparently, there are no workarounds once the bug is encountered.

I wish I had known about this problem prior to purchasing my keyboard. I probably would have made a different decision. I'll report this issue to Yamaha under a warranty claim.

Craig

[overover]

@Lefty
Hi Craig,

If you want to do a Full Factory Reset: On SX900/SX700 this is only possible by first calling up the internal Test program. Caution: This completely deletes/initializes all internal memory areas including the User drive!

If you wish to do this, please PM me and I will send you the relevant information.

For the sake of completeness: The GENOS has a special key combination to carry out this "Full Factory Reset" without having to call up the Test Program.


Best regards,
Chris

[Lacko]

It looks like the Full Factory Reset may be the only way to fix the error because of initializing all internal memory areas - not only files loaded into keyboard, but also all indexes and other „memorized“ files.

[Lefty]

Pietro
This is not Yamaha, it’s a forum of ordinary people with no agenda, who try to help …..if they can. The fact is that most people using Yamaha arrangers do not seem to have experienced this problem.
The OP starts this thread by talking about issues searching through “thousands” of styles, so it’s not unreasonable to suggest it may relate to the volume of styles collected. You may think that it shouldn’t happen anyway, regardless of size of style collection, but many of us have experienced issues with corrupted files in large, unaudited collections, so we learned to avoid it.
I sense your frustration that you cannot get a solution to this problem, but I am afraid that it seems no-one here can help.
Mike

Hi Mike,

I'm a little surprised to see this "flavor" of a response from a moderator. When a moderator posts something like this, it feels like that is the "official" stance of the forum.  I really hope that isn't the case, as it means I definitely have no place here.

I'm sure you can see that a few responses to posts were snarky, and were assigning blame to the poster, and that's not people trying to be  helpful.  Pietro just seemed to be asking "Why can't we all be a bit more civil to each other?"  That didn't seem at all offensive to be me.

"The OP starts this thread by talking about issues searching through “thousands” of styles, so it’s not unreasonable to suggest it may relate to the volume of styles collected. You may think that it shouldn’t happen anyway, regardless of size of style collection, but many of us have experienced issues with corrupted files in large, unaudited collections, so we learned to avoid it."

You say "thousands" of files like that's a lot.  It was for the original Atari with 4K of RAM, and a cassette tape for storage.  But it isn't for any modern system.  Why did I spend a LOT of extra money for the SX900's extra storage if I can't use it?

"I sense your frustration that you cannot get a solution to this problem, but I am afraid that it seems no-one here can help."

Someone did help.  It just took a while for him to post.  Knowing this is a known bug without known workarounds is important information.

Craig

[mikf]

Craig
I have read my response again several times , but see no 'flavor'. Its a very straightforward reply. I think you are reading something into it that is not there.
Mike

[Aquilauno]

Sorry to intervene again, but the issue is more complex than pointed out by Milf. I admitted that I was undiplomatic and probably offensive, I appreciate those who want to help, but I would like to underline that sometimes, what should help, can lead to an extension of the problem and not to a resolution, I admire the interest and good will, but also the prudence in answering. I mean (from experience) that sometimes a lot of publish a reply to a post without reading all the previous posts, this leads to replies that sometimes go beyond of the topic, or, to repetitive statements if not sometimes not really correct .
From the outset (3 years ago) the problem that would seem real today was dismissed too hastily by giving responsibility to the user and not considering other possibilities, I'm not touchy but it doesn't seem like a correct attitude even if this forum it is not Yamaha assistance. This was also happening in this topic (I'm sorry if anyone felt offended, probably it should have been said in other terms). The result is that if it had been tackled in a different way, more responsibly, today everyone would have known about this problem for a very long time and could have avoided it. Yamaha could have worked on this already three years ago and implemented a fix in the latest firmware (the moderators knows that is it and the real problem is that this has not happened).
I didn't want and I don't want to be argumentative, but seeing only the offense in my answer leaves me perplexed, however, I felt compelled to apologize in fairness because I am aware of my words.
However, if we all want to be honest, also to continue to say that indexing must have time to take place despite the fact that it has been represented several times in "the whole" topic that it was not like this for the "SX" series, because it is not equally offensive? (I didn't know you were a moderator Milf).
And especially in light of what has emerged so far. that is, that the problem is also on the Genos (did I understand correctly?), If it is true  many owners of Genos.
That said, I'm not offended, I'm not angry, just a little disappointed. I will be reporting the issue directly to Yamaha through my nephew who lives and works in Japan and hope they fix it before the SX950 comes out lol. Pietro

[mikf]

Pietro
I dont want to get into any conflict here, but I think you are completely misunderstanding the role of this forum. It's a discussion group, nothing more. Neither I, any other moderator or member has any responsibility to report, document, or solve problems on these keyboards. or even to read all the relevant posts. People try to help if they can, but that is all. They are not accountable for doing things better, or handling things differently or more responsibly so that Yamaha prioritize and solve these issues. If there is an unsolved bug on this search function, then it is solely Yamaha's responsibility to identify and rectify.
My personal experience - and that of many other users - has been that large style collections are not worth the trouble. I pass this on simply because that is my approach, and that of many others. It is not to trivialize your issue, or to say it does or doesn't exist, or to infer that you should not do what works best for you. I don't even have a Genos or SX, I have a CVP.   It is up to you to decide what advice you might take or not take from this forum.   
Mike

[madirv]

Well said Mike !!!

[Bill]

Hi Pietro

https://inquiry.yamaha.com/country/?act=202&lcl=it_IT

Bill

[Divemaster]

Yes... Absolutely!
If you can't be respectful to our Moderators then complain directly to Yamaha.
This is a Happy and very well run website and forum
and we all do what we can to help each other.

Mike, Chris, Roger, Eileen, Bogdan Fred, Bill, Joe and many others give freely and generously of their time and knowledge. Respect it. Thanks.

Time this thread was dumped.

Keith

[Lefty]

@Lefty
Hi Craig,

If you want to do a Full Factory Reset: On SX900/SX700 this is only possible by first calling up the internal Test program. Caution: This completely deletes/initializes all internal memory areas including the User drive!

If you wish to do this, please PM me and I will send you the relevant information.

For the sake of completeness: The GENOS has a special key combination to carry out this "Full Factory Reset" without having to call up the Test Program.


Best regards,
Chris

Thanks Chris.  PM sent.

If the "Full Factory Reset" works, then we will at least have a recovery method for these indexing issues.

The way I'm using my keyboard requires at least 1,500 registrations, styles, midi, and audio files.  It would be very nice to know what triggers this bug so SX900 owners could avoid it until Yamaha fixes it.

Craig

[overover]

Thanks Chris.  PM sent.

If the "Full Factory Reset" works, then we will at least have a recovery method for these indexing issues.

The way I'm using my keyboard requires at least 1,500 registrations, styles, midi, and audio files.  It would be very nice to know what triggers this bug so SX900 owners could avoid it until Yamaha fixes it.

Craig

I have replied to your PM, Craig.

Basically, I recommend not to search through entire collections downloaded from the Internet (e.g. styles, MIDI files) directly on the keyboard, but to first view such collections on the PC in the "PSR Style Database / Midi Database". There you can, for example, quickly identify and sort out duplicates and files with errors. Files that begin with a dot (e.g. ".-" files that come from macOS computers can also be quickly eliminated here. Only a manageable number of files should then be copied to USB sticks that are used on the keyboard, and the new files should also be listened to on the keyboard afterwards.I also recommend using USB sticks to store user files and never copying "huge" file collections to the internal User drive.

Note that in the "PSR Style / Midi Database" program there is no real delete function. Instead, you define a trash folder in the settings. There you can later move all files that you want to delete.

It is also important to know that reading larger collections in the program mentioned can take a relatively long time. (A small index file is written into each searched folder that contains Styles / MIDI files.) Later search processes take fractions of a second.

By the way, I have linked the "vanBasco Player" as an external style / MIDI file player in this program. As a playback device for vanBasco I use the program "VirtualMIDISynth" in connection with a GM/XG soundfont. By double-clicking on a style or MIDI file in "PSR Style / Midi database" you can quickly determine whether a style / MIDI file works at all and assess the basic quality.


Best regards,
Chris

[Lefty]

Hi Chris, thanks for all the good advice for file handling. It's much appreciated.  The computer programs will be very helpful for Windows users as well I'm sure. I'm a Mac user so they aren't as useful to me.

I performed a full system reset, and my SX900 still exhibits the same symptoms.  Search does not work on my keyboard for any file types.  Registrations, Styles, Midi, etc.

Thanks to everyone who helped out!  It's much appreciated.  Special thanks to JukkaSthlm who started this thread.

I'm off to try to engage Yamaha for some support. 

Craig

[overover]

Hi Chris, thanks for all the good advice for file handling. It's much appreciated.  The computer programs will be very helpful for Windows users as well I'm sure. I'm a Mac user so they aren't as useful to me.

I performed a full system reset, and my SX900 still exhibits the same symptoms.  Search does not work on my keyboard for any file types.  Registrations, Styles, Midi, etc.

Thanks to everyone who helped out!  It's much appreciated.  Special thanks to Aquilauno who started this thread.

I'm off to try to engage Yamaha for some support. 

Craig

Thanks for your feedback, Craig!

It's a pity that the Full Factory Reset didn't bring any improvement for the File Search feature on your SX900. Did you try the search first without the USB stick connected?

The best thing to do now is to contact Yamaha support directly, because probably nobody here in the forum can help you with your problem with the SX900 search function.

Regarding Mac computers: Running Windows programs on the Mac is possible (keywords BootCamp / Parallels Desktop / Virtual Box), but relatively cumbersome to set up. I recommend you just buy a (used) laptop/notebook with Windows 10 for little money, and all is fine.


Best regards,
Chris

[Lefty]

Hey Chris,

I haven't put the USB back in since the Full Reset, and I did give it plenty of time to re-index before performing a search.  I won't put a USB back in till I'm done with Yamaha support.

I did call Yamaha support. Got to a tech within 3 minutes. The guy was pretty competent and helpful.  He said there are lots of service tickets in his system about it.  Apparently there are quite a few causes for the same general symptoms.  He didn't try to troubleshoot it, just took down the symptoms, looked it up in their system, then escalated the ticket to their tier 2 team.  They are supposed to call me back within 24 hours.

I'll try to remember to update this thread as the saga continues. 

Craig

[BKeefe]

Anyone getting messed up by ._ type files from a MAC can purchase a program called Blue Harvest from Apple’s App Store. This was suggested in another thread by someone else. It runs on macOS Ventura 13.3.1. I ran it on my USB drive and it cleaned 2469 items. It probably saved me from encountering the search problem described by the OP. Time to make a donation to PSRTUTORIAL!! I wonder if it would solve anyone else’s problems here. I'm surprised that reinstalling the firmware 1.11 didn't clear up the problem since it should theoretically overwrite all the data on the device.

[overover]

Anyone getting messed up by ._ type files from a MAC can purchase a program called Blue Harvest from Apple’s App Store. This was suggested in another thread by someone else. I ran it on my USB drive and it cleaned 2469 items. It probably saved me from encountering the search problem described by the OP. Time to make a donation to PSRTUTORIAL!! I wonder if it would solve anyone else’s problems here.

Welcome to the PSR Tutorial Forum, BKeefe!

Thanks for pointing out the "Blue Harvest" macOS app. I recently mentioned the similar app "OptimUSB" in this thread:
>>> https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,65965.msg499542.html#msg499542


Best regards,
Chris

[Aquilauno]

Allow me one last reply before unsubscribing from the forum. Some dutiful clarifications for all those who have published their right or wrong comments.
1) I'm not the author of this topic, but many including Milf for first continue to consider me the author.
2) If I am not the author, it is evident that I have not asked for help from forum members as has been erroneously led to believe.
3) not having asked for help or assistance I can't be disappointed with the replies, because the replies of the members are addressed to the author of the topic, ie "JukkaSthlm".
4) By Milf's own admission, the topic was not read from the first post to the last it would have been correct make it for to express a fair judgment on a fact or a person, the same thing was done by many others who supported the action of Milf, even congratulating.
5) I posted the following sentence "Instead, SX owners who report this problem continue to be treated as if they were just incompetent collectors of mountains of useless styles, strangely renamed and apparently the source of the problem in question". This was deemed my offense to the forum members, not taking into account that my native language is not English and I need to use Google translator and I can make mistakes in this. I immediately apologized for the mistake but nobody belived of the writer's good faith. Milf believed that my complaint arose from the lack of assistance received, but if he had read all the posts he would have realized that I was not the author of the topic, I defer the attention of those reading points 2 and 3.
6) I tried in my small way to help "jukka" and give the right answer to his request for help.
7) it has been acknowledged that my hypothesis of the operating system bug is the cause of the malfunctioning of the SX900 search function, an admission also by the Yamaha technicians who are working on this problem.
8") three years ago I had already hypothesized this possibility, but I decided to live with it, so it's not a priority problem for me, I don't need to see it resolved but I reported it to Yamaha Japan and European.
9) I am a supporter of the forum too, but this is not must a reason to have respect, respect is regardless of donating or not. I have not respected some members?  I have already apologized. But the offenses you are giving me are beyond the facts.
That said, I greet the people I've had the pleasure of meeting in this forum, primarily Toril, Roger and Joe. Chris and Mark for their competence and availability, Drake and Eileen for their generosity and skill, the same thing for Onacimus, Enildo, Rikky and many others. My experience and participation in this splendid forum of enthusiasts ends here, the negative reactions expressed in the last few posts by some people that go beyond what I consider acceptable, misleading the real events that occurred in this topic. Someone will get over it, someone will be happy and I hope someone will be sorry. I may have been wrong, I admitted it, but this ultimate behavior of some people is a defeat of this community. Thank you, long life and prosperity and good music to all of you. Pietro

[Lefty]

Hi Aquilauno,
  I have to apologize  as I erroneously attributed this thread to you in a post thanking you.  I corrected it as soon as I recognized my error.  I'm sorry if that caused you problems.

Notice the OP never responded after his original post. If you leave, they will have driven off two people with one acrimonious thread. That's unfortunate.

Craig

[BKeefe]

It would be a pity if you (Pietro) leave. I'm new here but I can see that you've made many contributions/posts. It would be a shame for the forum to lose your insights.  Best regards whatever you decide to do.

Bill

[Amwilburn]

Aquilauno,

I see no reason to leave (unless you really want to) yes, I can see how some of the replies seemed dismissive as easily fixable (I know it's not, our PSRsx900 ended up getting sent back to Yamaha for a swapout; I know it's not easily fixable because I've seen it, but anyone who hasn't won't know that) but it's clear there was no insult intended from anyone, yourself included.

Everyone just chill out, relax, and take this forum for what it is: A bunch of helpful experts like Chris, pjd, cboku, and some very experienced who've "seen it all" -- like lonearranger,mikf,  & myself... I started here at Tom Lee (instrument retailer) in 1977. That's not a typo.

The point is someone like me who's been playing keyboards for almost 50 years? There are issues I don't know anything about; none of us knows it all (not even Yamaha!) . A lot of times, it's just a shot in the dark trying to troubleshoot. Unless you're Chris, pjd or cboku, in which case it's usually a *very* educated guess.

Mark

[mikf]

It is always regrettable when someone decides to leave the forum, but certainly no-one is “driving anyone off”.
Just for the record I understand completely that Pietro did not originate this question, but he did infer that it might have been solved sooner by Yamaha if people here had treated it more responsibly. Yes, I picked him up on that, but was not offensive, just pointed out that this was not the role of forum members. Pietro to his credit apologized for that.
 I also repeated what many had said, and that has been said many times on the forum, … that many of us at some point have amassed huge style libraries, and discovered that this had no benefit and introduced many problems. This is not dismissive, just a fact. However, I think Pietro felt this was not taking this issue seriously enough.
I freely admit that I did not read every post in this thread in detail, but make no apology for that. The OP’s first post and some of the others were longer and more loaded with detail than my tax return! And I dont read that either, I just trust my accountant and send the check! I am rapidly approaching 80 years old and not a software engineer, so I would likely have not understood, and even if I had, could not have offered a solution to the bug..  I will bet I was far from alone in not reading and considering all that technical detail.
And not reading every word does not alter what I and others said, … ie that avoiding large unaudited collections of thousands of styles might be the way to avoid this and other nuisance issues.
Bottom line is that I hope Pietro might step back and change his mind about leaving, I don’t really think that anyone was offensive on this thread.

I did exchange personal messages with Pietro, and he did make one point that I have noted, and might need some further discussion among moderators, ….namely that the large collections that caused him problems did come from this site.

Mike

[Aquilauno]

Moved by what the members have represented, I renew my esteem and I apologize again with everyone. I will not delete my profile and I will remain faithful to this community, carefully avoiding expressions that can be misunderstood, here I think that all in all it was a bad misunderstanding, mainly due to different mother tongues and bad translation and perhaps also different habits and mentalities, what may be offensive to some may not be to others. In Italy, giving chrysanthemums is a symbol of pain and mourning, in Eastern and Anglo-Saxon countries it is a symbol of joy, peace and vitality. What I wish you all... joy, peace and vitality. Thank you Mike.
"What fails to divide unites even more".
This is a great community.
Pietro