Author Topic: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?  (Read 5816 times)

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Offline Murat

Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« on: August 07, 2019, 08:42:34 AM »
I have updated my Genos to 1.4.1 yesterday but since then I noticed the sound quality overall seem to have reduced? I have checked EQ and all other settings I can think of but can't find any changes. Is anyone else suffering from this issue? Could an update reduce the overall sound quality of the keyboard?

Offline robinez

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2019, 08:58:24 AM »
i've updated too yesterday to 1.4.1 but i can't confirm this, on my genos the sound is the same.

My guess is that your general master EQ and Compressor setting for the genos are changed between these two versions (maybe you have overwritten this or a user preset reset to the factory setting?)

to check this, open your mixer settings, then the master tab and check the EQ and Compressor tabs if they are flat response again. It makes a huge difference to the sound when these are flat response.
 

Offline valimaties

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2019, 09:00:31 AM »
...Is anyone else suffering from this issue? Could an update reduce the overall sound quality of the keyboard?

Yes, it can. Audio hardware have parameters settings in firmware files. They can boost or not the audio out of sound card.

I cannot say it happens as I didn't updated yet  :)

PS: it's 1.41, not 1.4.1 :D
« Last Edit: August 07, 2019, 09:01:36 AM by valimaties »
______________________________________________
As long as you live, you learn continuously.
My youtube channel - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzi9PPrMTjN8_zX9P9kelxg

Vali Maties - Genos
 

Offline voodoo

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2019, 10:34:50 AM »
PS: it's 1.41, not 1.4.1 :D

It says:

Quote
Version History
[V1.40 to V1.41]

So in my understanding, 1.4.1 is logically correct.
Yamaha Genos
Yamaha MODX7
Yamaha P-125 Digital Piano
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline valimaties

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2019, 10:54:06 AM »
It says:

So in my understanding, 1.4.1 is logically correct.

Again, 1.40 does not equal with 1.4.0... it is one - point - forty, not one- point - four - point zero .... so, one - point - forty one is not equal with one - point - four - point - one

Read about software versioning

Of course, this is the insignificant thing in all this discussion  ;D

Regards,
Vali
« Last Edit: August 07, 2019, 10:57:17 AM by valimaties »
______________________________________________
As long as you live, you learn continuously.
My youtube channel - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzi9PPrMTjN8_zX9P9kelxg

Vali Maties - Genos
 

Offline EileenL

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2019, 11:29:03 AM »
I have updated and find no difference in quality of sound at all.

Offline voodoo

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2019, 12:04:35 PM »
Again, 1.40 does not equal with 1.4.0... it is one - point - forty, not one- point - four - point zero .... so, one - point - forty one is not equal with one - point - four - point - one

Read about software versioning

Of course, this is the insignificant thing in all this discussion  ;D

Regards,
Vali


Yes, you are right, technically. And Windows 10 is not equal to Windows 1.0 :)

But the last version was announced as 1.4, not 1.40. So the maintenance release should be 1.4.1, not 1.41, according to your link:

Quote
major.minor[.maintenance[.build]] 

But of course, it is not relevant, and I do not have be right.  :D When Yamaha calls it 1.41, so can we.  ;)
« Last Edit: August 07, 2019, 12:16:04 PM by voodoo »
Yamaha Genos
Yamaha MODX7
Yamaha P-125 Digital Piano
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline Murat

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2019, 12:09:07 PM »
I did check the general master EQ and Compressor setting for the genos but they seem to be the same as before. Not sure what could cause this. I am sure it was fine before the update of the 1.4.1 so I am wondering if I should go back to (if possible) version 1.4.0?
 
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Offline voodoo

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2019, 12:11:08 PM »
I did check the general master EQ and Compressor setting for the genos but they seem to be the same as before. Not sure what could cause this. I am sure it was fine before the update of the 1.4.1 so I am wondering if I should go back to (if possible) version 1.4.0?

I think it is possible. So you can try it. ;)
Yamaha Genos
Yamaha MODX7
Yamaha P-125 Digital Piano
Nord Electro 5D
 

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2019, 07:25:57 PM »
Hi folks,

the correct spelling of the current Genos version number is "1.41" (one-point-forty-one).

You can open the firmware file (.PRG) with "7zip" program. Inside you will find the file "romver.txt" with the following content: :)

MAIN_ROM_VER   1.41
MAIN_ROM_DATE   2019/07/30 10:09:58
REPO_REVISION   
BUILD_NUMBER   9
BUILD_JOBNAME   genos
HOST_NAME   576e43852b0b



Best regards,
Chris


Offline ugawoga

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2019, 07:34:40 PM »
Again, 1.40 does not equal with 1.4.0... it is one - point - forty, not one- point - four - point zero .... so, one - point - forty one is not equal with one - point - four - point - one

Read about software versioning

Of course, this is the insignificant thing in all this discussion  ;D

Regards,
Vali
   You might get a Pointless trophy for that ;D

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2019, 10:14:04 PM »
So, we can revert from 1.41 (or whatever the agreed version is) to 1.40 but not from 1.40 to 1.30??? What changed???
Current Gear: Genos, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compacts, 15 inch sub designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44.
 

Offline EileenL

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2019, 12:21:01 PM »
I think that because new screens were added in 1.40 you could not go back to the previous version which did not have these.

Offline reya

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2019, 01:13:59 PM »
So, we can revert from 1.41 (or whatever the agreed version is) to 1.40 but not from 1.40 to 1.30??? What changed???

It is my guess Yamaha changed the underlying O.S. file structure in 1.40.
1.30 (and earlier) would not be able to read that new file structure, so going back to one of those is not allowed.
If 1.41 brings no (new) changes to the file structure, moving back to 1.40 from 1.41 should not be an issue.

Rudy
Genos, PSR S770, Roland PK6, Ketron SD1000
HP Slate 21, Mobilesheets Pro
 

Offline valimaties

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2019, 07:29:48 PM »

Yes, you are right, technically. And Windows 10 is not equal to Windows 1.0 :)

But the last version was announced as 1.4, not 1.40. So the maintenance release should be 1.4.1, not 1.41, according to your link:

But of course, it is not relevant, and I do not have be right.  :D When Yamaha calls it 1.41, so can we.  ;)

If you have looked at OS update history on the Yamaha Genos update page, you have seen that the first update is from [1.02] to [1.10]  ... which means that was build a significant number of updates before published it.

BTW, thank you OverOver for clarifying .... ;)

PS: Uga, I don't understand the joke.. Maybe in english sounds in other way it sounds translated in my language  ???

Regards,
Vali
______________________________________________
As long as you live, you learn continuously.
My youtube channel - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzi9PPrMTjN8_zX9P9kelxg

Vali Maties - Genos
 

Offline Murat

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2019, 07:33:55 AM »
When I updated the Genos to 1.40 the sound was fine. The issue only started after updating to 1.41.

Just to ensure it is not my imagination; I will use the keyboard with V1.41 for a few weeks then revert back to V1.40 to see if any sound quality differences.

As I said I already checked the EQ / compressor etc settings - talking about the sound quality that would be the first thing to check, I guess.

Polite request: Those who are obsessed with 'correct version writing' please start your own post. I am trying to get some help here. It is always nice to be polite.

Offline jwyvern

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2019, 08:42:24 AM »
Murat, when checking, is the Genos stand alone or is it connected to some other instrument or maybe DAW software which could be "echoing" data or audio back in an unwanted way, perhaps made more noticeable after updating, but not generally detectable by others?
For the record I updated to v1. 41 and did not find any  difference, even with more demanding sound combinations, some of which played using V-console.
John
 

Offline ugawoga

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2019, 09:07:21 AM »
If you have looked at OS update history on the Yamaha Genos update page, you have seen that the first update is from [1.02] to [1.10]  ... which means that was build a significant number of updates before published it.

BTW, thank you OverOver for clarifying .... ;)

PS: Uga, I don't understand the joke.. Maybe in english sounds in other way it sounds translated in my language  ???

Regards,
Vali

Hi Vali

Some people over here in Uk still work in Imperial !!! ;D
Decimilization was 1972 and you have to have the point in the right place or there is no point at all. ;D


All the Best
John
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 09:10:35 AM by ugawoga »
 

Offline ton37

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2019, 09:30:39 AM »
Sorry @Murat, yur right @yyvern
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 12:17:08 PM by ton37 »
My best regards,
Ton
 

Offline jwyvern

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2019, 12:04:57 PM »
Murat,
I hope you saw my earlier post and it was not buried by the subsequent nonsense (which arrived in spite of your polite request to keep responses helpful/ technical).  ::)

John
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 12:14:44 PM by jwyvern »
 

Offline Murat

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2019, 01:00:54 PM »
Hi John,
I haven't got anything connected to my Genos. Just a set of powered speakers which I always loved. I don't use any software/s either.
Thanks,
Murat

Offline jwyvern

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2019, 02:27:40 PM »
How are you demonstrating the the fall off in quality? Eg. By listening to critical registration setups that you set up (which sounded fine before) or by listening to selected preset voices played directly on the keyboard?
What does the shortfall sound like? Is it a subtle one such as could be caused by a change in system reverb type (which I have experienced although nothing to do with updates or Genos faults),
Or is there a shift to brighter, or conversely muddier frequencies,
Or is distortion occuring, eg. similar to what some DSP's may cause,
Or is there a (subtle?) modulation of the sound as if the modulation stick is on or if there is slight vibrato occurring.
Or any other description that might help? So far the description given has not led to many replies  :)

John
 

Offline Murat

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2019, 02:48:08 PM »
Hello John,

The decrease of the sound quality: I noticed this while playing any sound, with or without a style. Sounds and styles are from the keyboard or if I use styles I downloaded as part of an expansion pack previously.

Changing the effect types or changing the EQ settings will still change the sound but the overall quality is low. The reduction of the sound quality does not indicate the use of any effects, modulations or anything similar.

The sound quality difference is similar to the following; the below example is exaggerated to make it easier to explain the issue. This is the only way I can think how I could describe the issue.

Take two headphones as an example; 1 cost £200 and the other a free gift which cost about £1 only. The quality on the cheap headphones would be really low compared to the rich sound of the expensive headphones. Hope this explains it better?

The difference in the sound quality is barely noticeable but I am very anal when it comes to sound quality.

Thanks,
Murat

Offline jwyvern

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2019, 04:08:36 PM »
Hi Murat,
Your description helpfully narrows it down, although it remains to be seen if an explanation can be found  ;)

Often, one thing affecting perception of "richness" is the level and type of reverb (often system reverb set within the style). Preset voices when selected bring in their default levels which usually are quite low for my taste, resulting in a relatively clipped if not dead sound. That's why I asked about your testing, if you test presets you may (anally hehe!) interpret these as inferior in their unedited state compared to what you expected from pre-update playing sessions.
Similarly there is quite a difference in perception of richness depending on whether the system type has been set (in the extreme) to the old Hall1 or one of the later ones such as MediumHallPlus or LargeHallPlus.
I can't explain  why updating could have altered such settings, and am still not convinced it has. But if you are looking for optimal richness, it may be useful for you experiment with reverb and come to some conclusions.

If you remain convinced the update was the trigger there is always the option to revert to the previous OS and check again. (You later have the option to download a fresh copy of 1. 41 and re-update  on the basis that so far no one else has reported a quality issue.)

John
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 04:11:54 PM by jwyvern »
 

Offline DerekA

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2019, 04:15:28 PM »
The difference in the sound quality is barely noticeable but I am very anal when it comes to sound quality.

Give it a week and you will be used to the 'new' sound.
Tyros5
 

Offline Murat

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2019, 04:37:17 PM »
Thank you all - would anyone have the UK version (in case it is different) of the V1.40 you could send me please?

Offline Dromeus

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2019, 04:37:52 PM »
Funny story:

After upgrading to FW 1.41 I found the Genos sound seriously degraded. Note that Genos (as all my keyboards) are connected to a patch-bay, which provides flexible routing of the audio signal to my audio interface. I found that the right channel of Genos audio was damped by about 80%. By patching the Genos audio to a different port, the full sound quality was available again. So the problem could be fixed by exchanging the patch cable between patch-bay and the audio interface for the right audio channel of Genos.

Pure coincidence  :P.
Regards, Michael
 

Offline jwyvern

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2019, 05:57:33 PM »
Funny story:

After upgrading to FW 1.41 I found the Genos sound seriously degraded. Note that Genos (as all my keyboards) are connected to a patch-bay, which provides flexible routing of the audio signal to my audio interface. I found that the right channel of Genos audio was damped by about 80%. By patching the Genos audio to a different port, the full sound quality was available again. So the problem could be fixed by exchanging the patch cable between patch-bay and the audio interface for the right audio channel of Genos.

Pure coincidence  :P.
Something else for Murat to check perhaps ie. that both stereo channels on Genos are working as they should when panpot is moved from left to right?

John

Offline jwyvern

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2019, 07:18:48 PM »
Murat, have sent you a PM

John

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2019, 09:45:28 PM »
PMs are fine but when a solution is found, it would be of benefit for everyone to hear it. This is indeed, a mystery :).
Current Gear: Genos, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compacts, 15 inch sub designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44.
 

Offline soundphase

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2019, 06:42:36 AM »
Very strange issue... I will wait before upgrading from 1.40 .... To fully understand the root cause.

Thank you for the time you spend.
Soundphase
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 06:45:22 AM by soundphase »
 

Offline jwyvern

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2019, 06:52:08 AM »
PMs are fine but when a solution is found, it would be of benefit for everyone to hear it. This is indeed, a mystery :).

Agreed although this one is not about solutions, it's to obtain an email address if Murat still wants to receive a file.
John
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 07:40:16 AM by jwyvern »
 

Offline Murat

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2019, 12:33:43 PM »
I have checked all the connectnions and cables, including the speaker cables; all fine. I will try V1.40 then try again V1.41 - I would like to ensure that there is in fact a sound quality difference but will update you all with the outcome.

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2019, 01:17:20 PM »
I have checked all the connections and cables, including the speaker cables; all fine. I will try V1.40 then try again V1.41 - I would like to ensure that there is in fact a sound quality difference but will update you all with the outcome.
Good idea. Before updating to 1.4.1 record a MIDI file with version 1.4.0 and convert it to an audio file through an external DAW. Perform your upgrade and call up the same MIDI file, import it to the DAW and convert it to an audio file.

At this point, you'll have evidence of any changes. Logically, they should sound and look the same. By "look" I mean the waveforms in the DAW should look the same when superimposed on one another. If not, something has changed. You'll also have evidence you can present to Yamaha so they can come up with possible solutions.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 01:20:16 PM by Lee Batchelor »
Current Gear: Genos, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compacts, 15 inch sub designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44.
 

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2019, 01:18:13 PM »
Agreed although this one is not about solutions, it's to obtain an email address if Murat still wants to receive a file.
John
Thanks for clarifying that, John :)! I knew you had a good reason ;).

- Lee
Current Gear: Genos, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compacts, 15 inch sub designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44.
 

Offline Murat

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2019, 01:38:42 PM »
Lee, very good idea! I will do that.

Offline opticat

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2019, 02:48:29 AM »
I agree that the sound quality is reduced. I went from 1.3.0 to 1.4.1. The difference seems to be in the decay of the notes and there is a lack of sharpness in attack as well. Just upgraded, and really havenít had time to investigate.
 

Offline Francesco Massa

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #37 on: August 13, 2019, 06:50:37 AM »
I personally use S-PDIF digital out and I find no difference on sound. Maybe the sound difference is on analog output only?
Francesco
Genos
Previously owned: PSR-740, Tyros2, Tyros3, Tyros4 & Tyros5
 

Offline ugawoga

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #38 on: August 13, 2019, 08:01:24 AM »
If you have looked at OS update history on the Yamaha Genos update page, you have seen that the first update is from [1.02] to [1.10]  ... which means that was build a significant number of updates before published it.

BTW, thank you OverOver for clarifying .... ;)

PS: Uga, I don't understand the joke.. Maybe in english sounds in other way it sounds translated in my language  ???

Regards,
Vali


Hi Val
in the UK  Pointless means just that.  It really means that it is a trivial matter. So you say "whats the point in doing that",  Or  "That is pointless in doing something that does not need that much attention. ".
Also here in UK we have a quiz show on Tv called Pointless and if you get to the final you win a Pointless trophy!!. So What's the point!!! ;D
Also Val, If something is pointless it can also mean no score like a draw in a football match 0-0, 1-1 etc.
We have lots of words with double meanings  eg          Reading,  said Red-ing is a  town in England.    Reading, is  looking through a book or newspaper said like Reeding

English can be confusing, as Chinese is to me!! ;D

oh well Val, that is why people from other countries call us  "Mad Dogs an Englishmen"    "Sausages to that"!!!! ::) ;D :P
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 08:08:27 AM by ugawoga »
 

Offline Murat

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #39 on: August 13, 2019, 05:54:09 PM »
I agree that the sound quality is reduced. I went from 1.3.0 to 1.4.1. The difference seems to be in the decay of the notes and there is a lack of sharpness in attack as well. Just upgraded, and really havenít had time to investigate.

Hi Opticat,

I agree with you. The way I explained my issue was: "Take two headphones as an example; one cost £200 and the other a free gift which cost about £1 only. The quality on the cheap headphones would be really low compared to the rich sound of the expensive headphones." This is how I tried the quality difference.

Although it has been a few days I still think the sound quality reduced after the update. Some might agree some might disaggree but I do think this is the case.

John (jwyvern) has kindly sent me the file for V1.40, I would like to try what Lee Batchelor suggested: "Before updating to 1.4.1 record a MIDI file with version 1.4.0 and convert it to an audio file through an external DAW. Perform your upgrade and call up the same MIDI file, import it to the DAW and convert it to an audio file." - I think this is a good idea and worth the try however I haven't had the time to do it yet. BUT I wonder whatever has happened to the keyboard after the V1.41 update maybe the issue is irreversible.

I will of course keep you updated.
 


Offline metcam

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2019, 06:12:39 PM »

I use same MIXER and spikers and there is no problem at all.

Sound quality is same like before.

Regards
Curent Instruments: GENOS the best of the best
Previus instruments:PSR-A3000,PSR9000,Tyros2,Tyros3,TYROS5,psr2000,psr2100,psr1500,psr530,psr OR700,DX7,DX11,V50,DX21.
KORG:pa800,KORG PA-900,Triton Extreme,Triton rack,.KORG X3,Roland G600.Roland D20........
 

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2019, 08:14:30 PM »
I use same MIXER and spikers and there is no problem at all.

Sound quality is same like before.

Regards
What are "spikers." I've never heard of that term in audio technology. Thanks :).
Current Gear: Genos, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compacts, 15 inch sub designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44.
 

Offline frozzers

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #42 on: August 13, 2019, 09:37:05 PM »
Speakers .... ?

 :)

Cheers

Chris
 

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #43 on: August 13, 2019, 09:39:09 PM »
Duh...thanks Chris :)!!
Current Gear: Genos, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compacts, 15 inch sub designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44.
 

Offline Mike-pol

Re: Update 1.4.1 - Sound quality reduced?
« Reply #44 on: September 09, 2019, 12:52:17 PM »
Hello
So how is the situation now with your Genos and reduced sound quality?
Did you find a reason or solution, or is it really a new Os 1.41 that caused that problem?
Regards
Mike