Author Topic: EQ settings for Genos tutorial  (Read 9361 times)

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Offline StuartR

EQ settings for Genos tutorial
« on: January 21, 2018, 04:26:55 PM »
Here's a mini tutorial on setting EQ on your Genos. This comes to us from the folks over at Soundpacks.

I offer this here in case you missed it and to open a discussion about EQ in general.

I might add that this is the kind of thing I would have hoped Yamaha would offer as part of a workshop on "Getting the best out of your Genos arranger". The closest I've seen from them to date is the Discovering Genos set of playlists and registrations with text file commentary. There's good stuff in there but without the actual detailed steps to accomplish some of it.

So, here's the EQ tutorial:

"As with all Yamaha products, the keyboards arrive from the factory with a FLAT EQ.
EQ is like the bass and treble control of your old Stereo, and the more you adjust, the warmer or brighter sound you get.
So, we would like to give you the EQ setting that we use, and we find this works brilliantly through big and small speakers, as well as headphones":

https://www.soundpacks.co.uk/blogs/news/eq-settings-for-genos
 
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vanray

  • Guest
Re: EQ settings for Genos tutorial
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2018, 04:41:05 PM »
Sorry to say this :
But those settings for the "EQ" are Grossly incorrect.

The settings for the Master compressor are Nonsensical
as The Master Compressor is Faulty, and only adds volume , not compression.
A firmware upgrade, might fix this, if its a software issue.

But the Compressor on the "MIC" section, does work correctly
This can be affirmed, by adding the MIC Compression , and hearing the volume Reduce.
 
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Offline terryB

Re: EQ settings for Genos tutorial
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2018, 04:51:05 PM »
Sorry to say this :
But those settings for the "EQ" are Grossly incorrect.

The settings for the Master compressor are Nonsensical
as The Master Compressor is Faulty, and only adds volume , not compression.
A firmware upgrade, might fix this, if its a software issue.

But the Compressor on the "MIC" section, does work correctly
This can be affirmed, by adding the MIC Compression , and hearing the volume Reduce.
 
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Offline terryB

Re: EQ settings for Genos tutorial
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2018, 04:53:04 PM »
Sorry in the above post I meant to add my comment that soundpack state they have compressor turned off
Cheer
Terry
 

Offline StuartR

Re: EQ settings for Genos tutorial
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2018, 05:01:44 PM »
Sorry to say this :
But those settings for the "EQ" are Grossly incorrect.

The settings for the Master compressor are Nonsensical
as The Master Compressor is Faulty, and only adds volume , not compression.
A firmware upgrade, might fix this, if its a software issue.

But the Compressor on the "MIC" section, does work correctly
This can be affirmed, by adding the MIC Compression , and hearing the volume Reduce.

Care to share exactly what is grossly incorrect? As for the compressor settings, they are disabled in this example.
 

Offline Kari V

Re: EQ settings for Genos tutorial
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2018, 05:39:08 PM »
Boosting bass frequencies in typical small listening rooms doesn't sound like a good advice generally. Such rooms boost
bass frequencies naturally anyway. Just the opposite is recommended for instance here:

https://sonarworks.com/blog/studio-monitor-test-and-calibration-5-speakers-in-a-bedroom-studio/

I wrote about this here:

http://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,40854.msg335973.html#msg335973
 

vanray

  • Guest
Re: EQ settings for Genos tutorial
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2018, 06:26:30 PM »
Boosting bass frequencies in typical small listening rooms doesn't sound like a good advice generally. Such rooms boost
bass frequencies naturally anyway. Just the opposite is recommended for instance here:

https://sonarworks.com/blog/studio-monitor-test-and-calibration-5-speakers-in-a-bedroom-studio/

I wrote about this here:

http://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,40854.msg335973.html#msg335973

Yes Kari V,  I Agree,its gonna sound like a BoomBox.
 

vanray

  • Guest
Re: EQ settings for Genos tutorial
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2018, 06:34:31 PM »
Sorry in the above post I meant to add my comment that soundpack state
they have compressor turned off
Cheer
Terry

How Strange, why post a picture of an fx thats not used anyway ?

Why have they used a screen capture of the "EQ" window, thats not on the genos now ?
is it a screen capture ,taken,before the last firmware upgrade ?

Compare the difference, because the Genos i have ,
starts and ends its Frequency's  with

 "80Hz" up to "8KHz , not
 "32Hz" up to "4KHz"



 
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Offline StuartR

Re: EQ settings for Genos tutorial
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2018, 06:56:06 PM »
How Strange, why post a picture of an fx thats not used anyway ?

Why have they used a screen capture of the "EQ" window, thats not on the genos now ?
is it a screen capture ,taken,before the last firmware upgrade ?

Compare the difference, because the Genos i have ,
starts and ends its Frequency's  with

 "80Hz" up to "8KHz , not
 "32Hz" up to "4KHz"





The EQ page is most certainly still there after the current firmware update. And the frequencies they have chosen are not all the defaults and can be changed by touching them on the display and selecting from a list.

I auditioned their EQ GOLD settings and found them to be similar to the sound produced by one of the built in one's, namely "POWERFUL". They sound fine using both my Sennheiser headphones and Fostex 240w near field studio monitors. Of course, YMMV.
 

vanray

  • Guest
Re: EQ settings for Genos tutorial
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2018, 07:05:16 PM »
The EQ page is most certainly still there after the current firmware update.

If your Genos is not showing the DOUBLE 8s left & right
then your not using the latest firmware update

 

Offline Kari V

Re: EQ settings for Genos tutorial
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2018, 12:18:56 AM »
Let's have a closer look at the suggested EQ GOLD settings, see the following table:

fc       Q       Δf    f_low...f_high
            
315   9.7    32   299   331
400   12     33   383   417
560   5.2   108   506   614
800   6.2   129   735   865
1.6k   9.4   170   1.51   1.685
3.6k   6.5   554   3.32   3.877

In the table the f_low and f_high denote the -3dB points of the correction centered at the fc and Q=fc/Δf (by definition, Δf is the Bandwidth in Hz).

We can see that there are considerable gaps: for instance from 331 Hz to 383 Hz; from 417 Hz to 506 Hz etc. Thus the resulting correction will be peaky and not smooth. The Q-values are simply much too high. This is shown in the attached figure 1.

Based on this I seriously doubt that the working of the parametric EQ was properly understood when choosing the parameters.

However, it could also be that some of the corrections were aimed at correcting a dip in the frequency response. These are case dependent, however. Thus it's not possible to use these parameters in another case and expect good results.

Furthermore, these parameters are totally unsuitable for headphone listening.

The effect of the shelving filters (without Q), cannot be accurately predicted, since the slope (dB/oct) is not known. Therefore I left them out from the frequency plot figure.

Offline StuartR

Re: EQ settings for Genos tutorial
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2018, 12:24:28 AM »
Let's have a closer look at the suggested EQ GOLD settings, see the following table:

fc       Q       Δf    f_low...f_high
            
315   9.7    32   299   331
400   12     33   383   417
560   5.2   108   506   614
800   6.2   129   735   865
1.6k   9.4   170   1.51   1.685
3.6k   6.5   554   3.32   3.877

In the table the f_low and f_high denote the -3dB points of the correction centered at the fc and Q=fc/Δf (by definition, Δf is the Bandwidth in Hz).

We can see that there are considerable gaps: for instance from 331 Hz to 383 Hz; from 417 Hz to 506 Hz etc. Thus the resulting correction will be peaky and not smooth. The Q-values are simply much too high. This is shown in the attached figure 1.

Based on this I seriously doubt that the working of the parametric EQ was properly understood when choosing the parameters.

However, it could also be that some of the corrections were aimed at correcting a dip in the frequency response. These are case dependent, however. Thus it's not possible to use these parameters in another case and expect good results.

Furthermore, these parameters are totally unsuitable for headphone listening.

The effect of the shelving filters (without Q), cannot be accurately predicted, since the slope (dB/oct) is not known. Therefore I left them out from the frequency plot figure.

Too much theory, not enough listening. How about spending equal time suggesting a suitable EQ setting for us to try?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 12:26:14 AM by StuartR »
 

Offline StuartR

Re: EQ settings for Genos tutorial
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2018, 12:29:37 AM »
If your Genos is not showing the DOUBLE 8s left & right
then your not using the latest firmware update



Mine is at 1.10 and I can get the EQ display identical to that shown.
 

vanray

  • Guest
Re: EQ settings for Genos tutorial
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2018, 08:42:08 AM »

Thus the resulting correction will be peaky and not smooth.


Yes I agree with that, "Smooth" is this ultimate goal in EQ settings , No Peaky.

 

Offline StuartR

Re: EQ settings for Genos tutorial
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2018, 01:49:44 PM »
Too much theory, not enough listening. How about spending equal time suggesting a suitable EQ setting for us to try?

Crickets...
 

Offline Kari V

Re: EQ settings for Genos tutorial
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2018, 01:57:15 PM »
Here's another figure attached, where I changed the scale of the Y-axis in order to better see the peaky nature of the proposed EQ GOLD scheme.

There are many sources on the net explaining the parametric EQ. Here's a good one I found:
http://mediacdn.jlaudio.com/media/mfg/9013/media_document/live_1/Parametric_EQ.pdf?1314047375

A note concerning it, however: you don't usually use such high gains mentioned in the document.

In case of a small room, the Sonarworks link and document (I provided earlier) gives valuable insight of how to apply the EQ to correct the bass boost typical of small rooms: the boost appears between 100 Hz and 500 Hz. Thus you should use attenuation in this band to get a more even response.

A rule of thumb: start with half of the gain/attenuation you think you need and slowly increase if that's not enough.

So the center frequency should be around 200 Hz, the starting attenuation around 3dB (so it's input as -3dB) and Q about 1. The attached figure shows how this would look like. I added some high frequency boost as well for "old ears".
 
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Offline Kari V

Re: EQ settings for Genos tutorial
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2018, 12:22:55 PM »
One more take on this. The attached figure shows what happens when the Q is changed from 1 to 1.6: the correction around 200 Hz becomes narrower, which might suit better for some rooms/loudspeakers.

I also changed the Q-value for the high frequency boost slightly, to change the slope a little bit. Unfortunately Yamaha have not provided this kind of control, so it's not possible to affect the slope. Furthermore, they haven't specified the slope to my knowledge. I assume the frequency is the "center frequency", where the gain is half of the entered one? Thus the only method available is "trial and error".

Yamaha should really provide a graphical UI for the EQ. Otherwise the EQ remains a mystery for many, I believe.
 

Offline pjd

Re: EQ settings for Genos tutorial
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2018, 02:20:47 PM »
Yamaha should really provide a graphical UI for the EQ. Otherwise the EQ remains a mystery for many, I believe.

Amen! Let's hope for other visualizations, too. That would make Genos a better competitor against computer-based software plug-ins.

All the best -- pj
 
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Offline Dromeus

Re: EQ settings for Genos tutorial
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2018, 09:04:32 PM »
Yamaha should really provide a graphical UI for the EQ. Otherwise the EQ remains a mystery for many, I believe.

I agree that a graphical UI is neat as I already stated in a previous post:
https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,42189.msg335805.html#msg335805

But I'm afraid even with a graphical representation it will remain a mystery for many. Let's face it: audio is about LISTENING and not about viewing. If you took the time to get some experience with a (parametric) EQ by listening closely to the results, you know how to benefit. That's what a lot of musicians did for many years and it worked. Those people who understand a parametric EQ, do benefit from a graphical representation, as they get the complete picture in a single view. The remaining "many" will still struggle to understand what this graphical representation really means for their sound in a given environment. The truth is: a lot of arranger players just don't want to invest the time to get the experience for making an educated decision about their EQ (and compression) settings. They keep asking for the "correct" settings which just do not exist.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 09:16:37 PM by Dromeus »
Regards, Michael
 

Offline ugawoga

Re: EQ settings for Genos tutorial
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2018, 12:36:52 PM »
hi

Sounds too boomy and muddy for me. Very bulky sound
I am using DXR 8's at home and I find having the loudness setting for pleasure listening is best.
For final mixing I have to experiment more.
I tried a pro recording to test my speakers  and the loudness settings of the Genos Is perfect, Lift the volume of the compressor so it does not touch the red and bingo .
Good as the pro sound with bass,drum, lead,styles and all the tinkles
I say start from the Genos template as the experts know where sound should be and just tinker with one of them till you find your sweet spot :P Yamaha must have studied a few scenarios.
Maybe you need the settings as in this thread if you are playing into those tinny Genos speakers.
Almost there now to make some music. Took some getting used to, that Genos, but you can get incredible sounds out of It  and also after a while it gets easier to get around, much better than the Tyros. :)
I use my Lug holes to gauge the eq and compression. Once you find that balance It is 100%
When mixing I use monitors and a little help from Lurssen or T racks Master tool. That will stop you getting too peaky or squeaky
Well It gets you somewhere near.
I am 66 now  and want to get on playing  and not worrying about graphs as those things that can be time consuming,obsessive and frustrating ;D!!
Makes you laugh at the amount of time going Into broadcast detail when they cannot   equalize the sound when the adverts come on your television.
You watch a  TV program and as soon as the adverts come on , they blast your eardrums out.*** PEAKY!! :-[  Tv is all about making money and rubbish quality. Even programmes
What's the point in quality radio ,when today's songs are sub standard and have not changed in 20 years. Same old moo moo and depressive stuff and Rap c**p. Plus that repetative EDM cheese music. Like a kids wind up toy, four bar recycle with a bit of filtering.
Even with today's music there is too much clutter and some of those 60s and 70s recordings will put today's producers to shame. Try Robin Trower - Bridge of sighs album for 1972 sound quality and it is great blues rock. Another great example is Starcastle from the USA  - Fountains of light. Exceptional 1970s studio quality. Also play them on a decent record deck, it will blow your mind.
Not to mention ELP- Tarkus. Yes album and Time and a word. Black Widow -Sacrifice, Groundhogs -Thank Christ for the Bomb Etc, Santana etc!!!! :) Of course  Isley Brothers
That is why people are turning back to vinyl, because digital does not have the same warmth.
I think personally you need EARS!!
Now , where did I put that  Deram Phase 4 disc!!
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 03:28:33 AM by ugawoga »
 

vanray

  • Guest
Re: EQ settings for Genos tutorial
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2018, 01:54:20 PM »
Amen! Let's hope for other visualizations, too. That would make Genos a better competitor against computer-based software plug-ins.

All the best -- pj

Yes i agree.
Generally the Goal in a Radio-Broadcast eq mix, would be to Neutralize any peaks.

in the pic below the peaks are in GREEN
This can easily be rectified, by REVERSING those GREEN  peaks,to RED
The result is a Smooth mix that works on all formats.



 

Offline Kari V

Re: EQ settings for Genos tutorial
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2018, 02:10:08 PM »
Now let's have another look at what can happen when Yamaha have not provided a GUI for the EQ.

I just took the first EQ suggestion I found on PSR Tutorial forum (outside of this thread) and entered the suggested values in the MEqualizer. The result is shown in the attached figure. There's so much gain added that it seems that the MEqualizer refuses to add it all, which is why there's the straight white line at the top.

It looks like that it was not understood that by setting up two EQ filters at the same frequency with the same Q, the gains will just be added. So for instance the EQ2 could be left at 0 dB and instead you could enter 10 dB (6+4=10) for the EQ3 with the same end result. Similarly for the EQ5 and EQ6. However, because the gains are so high you could (probably) not enter 20 dB as the gain, so you need to "fudge".

Then I turned the Spectrum Analyzer on and took a couple of snapshots of the instantaneous frequency spectrum at two points of time (for a random piece of music). The results are shown in the other figures attached, where I have removed the EQ parameter display. The black curve shows the original spectrum and the greyed one above it, the resulting one.The result looks like a cheap transistor radio to me. And also sounds like that with almost no bass.
 
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Offline StuartR

Re: EQ settings for Genos tutorial
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2018, 02:23:48 PM »
Yes i agree.
Generally the Goal in a Radio-Broadcast eq mix, would be to Neutralize any peaks.

in the pic below the peaks are in GREEN
This can easily be rectified, by REVERSING those GREEN  peaks,to RED
The result is a Smooth mix that works on all formats.


Yamaha has provided about 6 or so EQ canned settings in the Genos master mixer screen. I wonder how they would fare if their data points were run through your EQ software? Doing so might give us insight (either positive or negative) about how well they understood EQ. What do you think?
 

vanray

  • Guest
Re: EQ settings for Genos tutorial
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2018, 02:44:21 PM »
Yamaha has provided about 6 or so EQ canned settings in the Genos master mixer screen. I wonder how they would fare if their data points were run through your EQ software? Doing so might give us insight (either positive or negative) about how well they understood EQ. What do you think?

I honestly dont know sorry
i can only surmise, that all keyboard voices would have already be normalized.
so that would automatically create , a great mix anyway, because nothing is to loud or to soft.

A "FREQUENCY-ANALYZER"  mostly used on high end D.a.w s, would analyse the mix,
 and tell you what needs to be corrected

the ultimate goal is to have a FLAT level from left to right
with a bit more sloping of the bass on the left and a bit more treble on the right

avoiding peaks is the goal, but this kind of Master-Finalizing , is usually done in a mastering Studio
but Yamaha , can do all of this  in blink of an eye, if they wanted to.
but we dont know what other new keyboards will be coming out soon,
that might incorporate all of this high end stuff.

 
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Offline Kari V

Re: EQ settings for Genos tutorial
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2018, 09:52:36 PM »
Continuing the tutorial:

Another method to compensate for the bass boost of small rooms is to raise the other frequencies, that is the higher ones, say above 500 Hz.

Here's an example how this can be done, see the attached figure. It also nicely illustrates how useful the GUI is: it's very
easy to design a smooth compensation scheme.
 
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Offline Kari V

Re: EQ settings for Genos tutorial
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2018, 03:54:50 PM »
Let's then look at one EQ example I found (on PSR Tutorial) that was made for Bose Compact plus subwoofer.

It was said that it changes the sound a lot, although the gains are small, only 2dB:
"these settings provide a slight increase in the midrange levels. For me it makes a huge difference."
 
The reason for this is that two of the Q-values are very small, only 0.1. Thus the affected
frequency range is wide and the max total gain added is by no means small being 6 dB at 1.5 kHz and
above 4 dB from 500 Hz to 5 kHz.

The EQ response is shown in the first attached figure. It shows clearly that the total effect
is "dramatic".

The next attached figure shows the combined effect of the two filters with the Q-value of 0.1 without the first EQ. We can see how wide the response is.

The last figure shows that nearly a similar response than with the two separate filters (EQ3 and EQ4) can be achieved by one filter with 4dB gain and center frequency of 2kHz.

The last example is the Tyros3 EQ labeled as "HIFI": we can see that it suits some loudspeakers that have a response peak around 1 kHz, like the Yamaha HS5. However, the attenuation around 200 Hz would not suit the HS5.

Thus you need to know the frequency response of your loudspeakers in order to get a good starting point for the EQ settings. One good way would be to take one of the pro-level monitors as a reference, for instance the Genelec 8040. Then compare the frequency response of your loudspeaker to it and note the reference monitor response in the "bedroom studio" test by Sonarworks (link earlier in this thread). From this you will get an idea how much attenuation is needed for low frequencies for your speakers, or alternatively how much you need to boost the higher frequencies to compensate for the low frequency boost.

In conclusion my recommendation: if you plan to use the EQ and have a DAW (like Cubase, Sonar etc.), get yourself (for instance) the MEqualizer VST plugin. It's FREE and can be downloaded using this address

http://www.meldaproduction.com/MEqualizer

A good tutorial describing briefly its features is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuVcH7Gq5x8

You may also need the ASIO4ALL - Universal ASIO Driver For WDM Audio, which is free, too
http://www.asio4all.org/
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 03:57:59 PM by Kari V »
 
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Offline Kari V

Re: EQ settings for Genos tutorial
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2018, 02:46:28 PM »
After you have installed the MEqualizer you can do the following:

Enter the Genos EQ settings provided by Yamaha into the MEqualizer. There are 8 slots labeled A to H for that. Now you can listen to some music using these while seeing how they look visually. This way you can start to better understand how the settings affect the sound.

Next you can record some music you play on the Genos: either directly into your DAW or by first recording it on the Genos and then transferring it (the audio file) to you DAW using a USB stick (don't use any EQ settings at this point, that is make sure that all the gain settings are equal to 0 dB).

Next you can connect the audio output of your DAW/laptop/PC to the AUX IN of the Genos and start listening to the music. Now you can start experimenting with the EQ settings using the MEqualiser while listening to the music using the monitor loudspeakers of the Genos (or whatever loudspeakers you have). The GUI of the MEqualizer will help you in getting the result you want.

There's a problem with the shelving filters of the Genos, though, because we don't know the slope of the filters and it cannot be changed using the Genos. The way to find out the slope is to compare the result of the DAW/MEqualiser sound output to the Genos sound, changing the slope in the MEqualizer until you get a similar sound. Do this separately for the treble and bass shelving filters (the ones with no Q settings on the Genos). Don't use too high or too low center frequency for this, or you may not be able to find out the slope. Naturally the other filters should have a 0 dB gain in this case. Once you have done this you can then report your findings on this forum for the benefit of others.
 
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