Author Topic: The ideal arranger  (Read 479 times)

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Offline Seagull29

The ideal arranger
« on: December 05, 2017, 01:15:26 PM »
Hi,
Just a simple question:

For you, what should the ideal arranger do? (functions, editing etc....)    8)
 

Offline Toril S

Re: The ideal arranger
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2017, 01:29:07 PM »
Hello :) I would like screens that could be adjusted so that you could get much bigger letters in menus like Music Finder! More contrast on the buttons, and away with those horrible "rubber" buttons. The ability to make MP3s, not only Wav with the audio recorder. Tiltable screen on the smaller keyboards also, not only Tyros/Genos.
Toril S

PSR S970, PSR 2100 and PSR-47.

http://psrtutorial.com/perf/torilSusegg.html
 

Offline Seagull29

Re: The ideal arranger
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2017, 01:35:13 PM »
On Genos, screen is not tiltable and some regret it.
 

Offline Oldden

Re: The ideal arranger
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2017, 02:50:11 PM »
Hi,
Not long now until NAMM 2018, Yamaha have picked out a big area just behind the hotel. I know, it's unlikely to be a new keyboard, but you never know.
Oldden
 

Offline travlin-easy

Re: The ideal arranger
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2017, 04:16:23 PM »
Having been on stage for more than 30 years, I assure you there is no such thing as an ideal arranger - it does not exist, at least yet. They all have some positive attributes and some negatives, especially when on stage. The screen visibility has improved dramatically over the past decade, and I can easily see my PSR-S950 under nearly all indoor situations, and some outdoor conditions. No need to have a tilt screen if it is viewable from all directions, which the S-950, S-970 and Genos are because of supertwist technology.

Since the advent of the PSR-2000, you can pretty much edit anything that needs editing, but for the most part, Yamaha has already done most of if for you, especially when it comes to realistic sounds for right hand voices. You would be hard pressed to make them any better than they are right out of the box. I should know - I've tried it many times.

Yamaha has made great strides in their music finder directory with their S series of keyboards, and the songlist on the Genos. For onstage work, this would be difficult to beat. I used my MFD extensively on stage and loved how easy it was to use and how fast I could transition between songs, often in times of less than one second. There are not many keyboards out there that can do this.

As for acquisition speed for file loading, the Genos and S series are lightning fast, which is a huge asset for onstage performances. When someone requests a song, I could usually get to it in less than 3 seconds and began playing the song as they walked back toward their table. Loved it!

So, what exactly do you need? Be very specific as to how it would be beneficial to you and others, and I will do my best to determine if there is already a feature that would easily accomplish that goal. If not, write a letter to Yamaha's product development team in California and maybe they can come up with a software solution or update that will take care of your needs.

Hope this helps,

Gary 8)
Love Those Yammies...
 

Re: The ideal arranger
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2017, 04:15:40 PM »
Hi,
Just a simple question:

For you, what should the ideal arranger do? (functions, editing etc....)    8)

Should be capable of arranging music! Simple! but no manufacturer will ever create one. If you take a look at any flagship arranger keyboard, you will realize that you can never create and arrange a piece of music professionally on any of them.

For voice creation, you need a synthesizer not an arranger. The ecosystem is intentionally implemented ill-conditioned so that you buy a new keyboard every year.
Yamaha MOTIF XF, Casio PX-150, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
 

Offline mikf

Re: The ideal arranger
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2017, 04:36:52 PM »
Not so simple - the term 'arranger keyboard' has been adopted to describe portable keyboards with advanced onboard accompaniment, not because they were meant to arrange music. Maybe the term is misleading, but that is nonetheless the case.
Mike
 

Offline travlin-easy

Re: The ideal arranger
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2017, 04:38:00 PM »
I never thought a keyboard arranged anything. Instead, the person using the keyboard does the arranging and composing using the tools at his or her disposal. As for the voices, there are thousands to select from, all of which can be modified to fit any need. No need to create new ones, IMO. I would be hard pressed to find a synth created voice that sounds as realistic as any I have heard from the TOTL keyboards available today. I guess if someone wanted to sit down at a synth or PC and create his or her own special voice, one never available in the past, and something that has resemblance to a real instrument, well have fun. Most folks could care less about this when it comes to playing or creating an arrangement on their arranger keyboard.

All the best,

Gary 8)
Love Those Yammies...
 

Offline valio7771

Re: The ideal arranger
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2017, 05:03:54 AM »
Universally ideal arranger is both very hard and easy to produce.

Why hard?
Because every person have different requirements and different approach to the keyboard, depending what music you play, how you play it, how advanced of a player you are, how technically advanced you are, and many many other aspects.
For some, simple MP3 player is more than enough (even keys may be optional), there are people that only play with styles, people that use MIDI's, or the combination of those three.

Why easy?
Now we're entering 'the twilight zone' where every keyboard manufacturer is afraid of, and will never dare to make this suicidal move and create such thing, because that's gonna be the last keyboard that they'll ever sell. There where some some attempts in this direction from hand full of companies back from the late 90's like Open Labs with their NeKo and MiKo that where running Windows XP, there where few others that I can't recall right now, and currently available Studio BLADE, Kami XL and ES models up by Music Computing, but they where all focused in studio application, and still portable enough to be used on stage if you wish to.

To recap:
It's not absolutely impossible to create such Arranger keyboard from engineering point of view, for both hard and software, although such creature would rely mostly on software than hardware. I would imagine more than 2 or even 3 fairly big touchscreens and some hardware knobs, sliders and buttons, all highly configurable. Writing proprietary software for it would be the most challenging part I think, since it have to be extremely flexible and universally compatible. It would need to be able to load any kind of VST or any other kind of sounds of your choice. There a currently available processors that are more than capable for such task, and are capable to cope with the demand of driving such software. Hi-class computer processor today have as much as 16 cores, 4.0ghz per core of clock speed, and total of 32 threads. So, yes...from the hardware point of view, we have the power to fuel such thing TODAY. And if you take into account that those numbers will be doubled in no more than a year with the current rate that technology evolves, it's crazy how much power we can have in a keyboard.
Still, the chance of such beast to be created is fairly low since the BIG names in the industry that produces such class keyboards have no interest of doing so, and even if they do, the niche market is not that big and they would not make much money from it anyway, even if the price tag is very close to $10,000 or slightly more.

They have it all sorted, fellas...that's why they'd like to grind us slowly into the next model they'll produce with mere cosmetic changes and handful of new features from the previous model, and have a solid piece of money every other year...it's that simple.

So, anyone willing to write some arranger software?  :P

Offline Seagull29

Re: The ideal arranger
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2017, 06:21:38 AM »
Hi, very interesting replies but my question was very simple about ideal arranger keyboard. It was just to know what you'd like to find as usefull functions to compose or editing, or create styles and, eventually, sounds.
 

Offline pjd

Re: The ideal arranger
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2017, 06:33:16 AM »
I never thought a keyboard arranged anything. Instead, the person using the keyboard does the arranging and composing using the tools at his or her disposal.

I agree with Gary. There are as many approaches to arranging as their are people and songs. Everyone has a different, preferred way of working. Sometimes the song and the audience for a song require a particular approach. The tools for EDM are different than the arranging tools for big band, just to choose two different genres. (Please no EDM vs. big band wars. :-) )

That's why it's hard to answer the question "Should I buy an arranger, a synth, a DAW, etc.?" when someone poses it. The person asking the question needs to think about their musical process and requirements, the songs they arrange and play, and, of course, their audience.

Hey, hey, don't forget to play today -- pj

P.S. Just saw Valio's post which flew in while I was writing. Good comments!

« Last Edit: December 12, 2017, 06:34:38 AM by pjd »
 

Offline valio7771

Re: The ideal arranger
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2017, 07:09:34 AM »
Hi, very interesting replies but my question was very simple about ideal arranger keyboard. It was just to know what you'd like to find as usefull functions to compose or editing, or create styles and, eventually, sounds.

Well, to me personally, the ideal arranger would need to have a lot of hardware controllers. at least 16 rotary encoders fully programmable, 10"capacitive touchscreen, auto audio sync to styles, fully fledged MIDI+audio sequencer, chord sequencer, sound expandability(Virtual instruments support), ribbon controller/s, Registration memory that is able to record every single aspect in the keyboard settings, user expandable M.2 storage instead of SSD, USB type C or Thunderbolt ports, integrated 5Ghz WiFi module (compatibility with iOS,Android, Windows mobile devices), Audio over USB for better DAW integration, plenty of analogue and digital I/O....and more.
 

Offline Joe H

Re: The ideal arranger
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2017, 07:22:48 AM »
If we expect computers to do everything for us,  then we will forget how to think and be creative.  I see the beginnings already with the smart phone technology.  We can thank Steve Jobs if we end up a dumb society unable to think for ourselves.

We don't need software to help us create music.  That is the job of the human spirit... always!

 ;)

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline Seagull29

Re: The ideal arranger
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2017, 11:43:50 AM »
Quote
We don't need software to help us create music.  That is the job of the human spirit... always!

I agree but I want just to speak about tools in firmware as Guitar Mode, for example,  to be able to make "real" strummings from keyboard, or others tools to work.

I don't play guitar good enough !  ;)
 

Offline Joe H

Re: The ideal arranger
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2017, 02:34:00 PM »
I would agree with you on guitar 'emulation" (strumming and picking) as well as SA2 technology aka: Articulation Element Modeling (AEM) which is computer modeling of wind and string instruments. This is Yamaha's application of technology to create "realism" for sample playback keyboards. I believe AEM evolved out of the VL - Virtual Acoustic (physical) modeling developed by Yamaha and Standford University back in the late 1990s.

It would be nice to see more of this kind of application in MIDI instruments... but we still have to "play" the the darn things don't we? Which requires at least a little bit of human talent.

 :)

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline valio7771

Re: The ideal arranger
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2017, 02:40:35 PM »
We don't need software to help us create music.  That is the job of the human spirit... always!

I also agree with you that it's the man behind the keyboard that makes the music, and not the keyboard itself.
I remember the joy of playing in 5-6 or more piece band, and how just by looking to each other we where doing something whacky, putting an accent, some twisted chord and laugh and have great fun playing together, but now the times have changed, even if we like it or not.
I speak for my self, growing in Eastern-European country with very limited finance, but with lots of sparks in my eyes and itchy fingers, started my adult-ish life as a musician in a band at age of 16, and since than I've never asked my parents for money, because I was earning my own money, and was happy to help them occasionally. My first keyboard that I bought with my own money was a second hand Casio...can't remember the model, but it had full size 48 keys it had 6 notes polyphony, but I was so happy with it because my previous one had 36 small size keys and 3 note polyphony, which my mother bought me with her hard earned money. You had to be very creative to make music with that kind of instrument in a band on stage without sounding like you're choking a cat.

Skip 24 years and many keyboards later, now we have such powerful instruments like Tyros, Genos and other models of another brands, and it's not the technology that's in those keyboards that spoils the musician, it's how musically you use that technology to express yourself.

You can use a hatchet to kill a man, but you can also use that same hatchet to build a house, and save a man's life by bringing him inside from the cold. Same applies for any technology we have today in our hands.

Enjoy life, enjoy all the possibilities.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 05:16:54 AM by valio7771 »