Author Topic: Fingering mode  (Read 2103 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mikf

Fingering mode
« on: October 14, 2017, 11:25:22 AM »
One thing that has been on the Korgs but not any of the Yamahas is the ability to change fingering modes while playing live. This is very useful when for example you are playing full keyboard piano over say a jazz combo accompaniment, but then want to change to a solo voice like a guitar or sax. You don't want the full keyboard to have this sound and the best choice is to change to fingered on bass with a split, playing more conventionally arranger like with LH chords. On the Korgs there has been a selector switch on the keyboard since goodness knows when which means you can do this on the fly, but on the Yamahas you have to dig into the menu layers, which makes it impossible to do on the fly. I was looking for this on the Genos - is it still buried in the menu layers or can you designate one of the panel switches? 
Mike

Offline stephenm52

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2017, 11:39:21 AM »
How about setting a registration, just a guess on my part?  Maybe not as I think about it.
GENOS, Clavinova CVP 307, PSR s970, Korg Pa4x-76
PSR Performer Page  -  Steve's Gig Disks[/u]
 

Online DavidB

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2017, 12:05:33 PM »
I am fairly certain registrations on my Tyros 4 also store the fingering mode. I'll have to switch it on and double check. I've not change mode mid song, but I do have some pieces I play full keyboard and others I play chords and I don't recall having to do anything other than switch registrations. I'll check when I get the chance.
Just don't mention Genos USB drive letter assignments :)
 

Offline jwyvern

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2017, 12:21:05 PM »
If you have style ticked,  registrations will always save the fingering mode  (and the main split points) at the time of memorising.

John
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 12:22:46 PM by jwyvern »
 

Offline DerekA

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2017, 12:40:24 PM »
If you press DIRECT then ACMP it jumps straight to the fingering menu, if that helps.
S770
 

Offline travlin-easy

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2017, 04:14:04 PM »
Derek beat me to the punch on this one - you can do it on the fly and I have done it many times using that technique.

Gary 8)
Love Those Yammies...
 

Offline mus07

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2017, 12:04:04 AM »
Whilst we are talking about Fingering Modes, it looks like the Genos is exactly the same as all previous arrangers.
I have always wanted Yamaha to include intelligent fingering like on Roland, Ketron, Korg and Casio arrangers - that is you can play 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 note fingered chords and the keyboard style will play correctly:-
e.g. just playing "C" note will give you a full "Cmaj" style backing, just playing "C" and "Eb" notes will give you a full "Cmin" etc......

Or am I wrong? I know this never worked on my Tyros and PSR s910 etc....

Thanks

Pete :)
(I know, I need to learn the chords!!!!!!!)
 

Offline maartenb

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2017, 12:56:07 AM »
In "Fingered Mode" the Tyros recognizes your chord with two or more notes. So that's also the same, except you can't play with one note (you would need Single Finger mode for that, but then you would miss the possibility to play with two or more notes.)

However, the Tyros has AI Fingered mode, which the other brands don't have. For this you have to change your fingering a bit, but you have much more control over the chord and bass. Yamaha demonstrators, like Martin Harris and Ian House, play with AI Fingered. Well worth a try!


Maarten
 

Offline voodoo

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2017, 07:59:08 AM »
Marteen is right,

AI fingering is superior to switching between normal chord and lowest note bass recognition. I always use AI mode. You can play regularly using stand chords, but can play 3 or 5 in bass any time by just pressing the right 2 keys. My most used special fingerings:

* e c means c major with e in bass
* g c means c major with g in bass

This is much more comfortable than explicit bass mode where always the lowest note is the bass note.

Uli
Yamaha Genos (finally)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline mikf

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2017, 08:36:10 AM »
I dont think there is any difference between AI and fingered on bass re the bass note. Both will play the bass note as the lowest note in the chord, so you cn play inversions. The big difference is that AI will work out chords from likely sequence so that even if you do not fully specify the chord it will get it correct most of the time.
Mike
 

Offline Bachus

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2017, 11:45:12 AM »

Full fingered..

It allows you to play with your left hand, single and double notes witouth triggering the chord..
Keyszone.boards.net for all the latest keyboard news and information.
 

Offline travlin-easy

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2017, 01:53:29 PM »
From what I've read in the user manual, the fingering modes did not change with Genos. There are more options available than anyone person could possibly need. One of the neat things I used in the past was the full keyboard mode, which provided lots of neat opportunities while performing certain songs. Most of the time, however, I used the multi-finger mode, which provided you to play either full chords, or single finger, which ever you desired at the time. It was good for when I just felt lazy, too. ;)

all the best,

Gary 8)
Love Those Yammies...
 

Offline Bachus

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2017, 01:56:20 PM »
From what I've read in the user manual, the fingering modes did not change with Genos. There are more options available than anyone person could possibly need. One of the neat things I used in the past was the full keyboard mode, which provided lots of neat opportunities while performing certain songs. Most of the time, however, I used the multi-finger mode, which provided you to play either full chords, or single finger, which ever you desired at the time. It was good for when I just felt lazy, too. ;)

all the best,

Gary 8)

What yamaha needs to do is allow people to add settings like these to the assignable buttons, so they can chnage anything they want to change on the fly based on a single button press..
Keyszone.boards.net for all the latest keyboard news and information.
 

Offline travlin-easy

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2017, 02:06:14 PM »
Actually, this can be done, on the fly, while performing live, by merely using registrations and lots of players utilize this technique. Realistically, most performers stick to one form of fingering and never switch throughout their performance. There is also a quick method that can be utilized that takes you directly to the fingering screen. Just press the Direct Access button, then press the accmp button and bingo, you are there.

The only other option is to open the fingering box by going through the Function screen and tabbing to fingering, which is cumbersome. I know of no other arranger keyboard that allows this, either.

All the best,

Gary 8)
« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 02:29:45 PM by travlin-easy »
Love Those Yammies...
 

Offline Fred Smith

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2017, 03:42:04 PM »
What yamaha needs to do is allow people to add settings like these to the assignable buttons, so they can chnage anything they want to change on the fly based on a single button press..

You can. They are called registrations.

Fred
Fred Smith,
Saskatoon, SK
Sun Lakes, AZ
Tyros 4, Bose L1, Finale 2011
Check out my Registration Lessons
 

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2017, 09:54:19 PM »
You can. They are called registrations.

Fred



But having settings like this available for the assignable buttons would make it simpler.
Having to change registrations for every little change is quite hard.
I think having 6 assignable buttons available inside each registration for small changes like this
Thats pretty sweet, and i would use that a lot.

Why else have assignable buttons?
 

Offline voodoo

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2017, 12:20:07 AM »
I dont think there is any difference between AI and fingered on bass re the bass note. Both will play the bass note as the lowest note in the chord, so you cn play inversions.

No, AI does not always use the lowest note as bass note. And this is a real advantage.

When I play

* c e g   /   b d g   ---> Bass plays C G   (G ist not the lowest note)

But when I play

* c e g / b g  ---> Bass plays C B

The number of finger movements is strongly reduced with AI.

Uli

Yamaha Genos (finally)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline jwyvern

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2017, 01:28:51 AM »
You can minimise the need for changing modes on the fly by setting to AI (which is the default) and playing greater than 2note LH chords when it will behave the same as if it were Fingered  mode, including rootless and you can still trigger the AI features when needed by playing 2note chords (affecting where the bass plays as per voodoo).
John
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 01:58:21 AM by jwyvern »
 

Offline Grayfox

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2017, 11:47:31 AM »
I always do everything on registrations even endings and never press buttons when I play as I get lost when I take my hands off the keyboard, so I always change my registrations with my left foot pedal, and use my right pedal for fill ins and other things, so quick changes are easy.
Graham.
Current Yamaha Genos with 2 Yamaha MSR100 Speakers
 

Offline Grayfox

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2017, 11:53:32 AM »
I am just wondering how long it will take (15 years so far) for someone to make a volume pedal with side kickers, like the YAMAHA organs going back to the HS-8 etc.
Graham
Current Yamaha Genos with 2 Yamaha MSR100 Speakers
 

Offline pjd

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2017, 12:03:26 PM »
I always do everything on registrations even endings and never press buttons when I play as I get lost when I take my hands off the keyboard, so I always change my registrations with my left foot pedal, and use my right pedal for fill ins and other things, so quick changes are easy.
Graham.

Hi Graham --

Would the Crumar long throw expression pedal with side switches model MJ-EXP2 do the business?

http://www.crumar.it/?a=page&p=accessories

I thought about using the side switches to turn sheet music pages on an iPad.

All the best -- pj

Offline Grayfox

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2017, 12:15:28 PM »
Hi Graham --

Would the Crumar long throw expression pedal with side switches model MJ-EXP2 do the business?

http://www.crumar.it/?a=page&p=accessories

I thought about using the side switches to turn sheet music pages on an iPad.

All the best -- pj

Not sure? It says it is not a volume pedal.
Does anyone have one of these working with a YAMAHA keyboard?

Graham
Current Yamaha Genos with 2 Yamaha MSR100 Speakers
 

Offline mikf

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2017, 01:46:08 PM »
 John - What you suggest would not help because I am changing from full keyboard to split keyboard. I would use AI on full keyboard because I find it is the best overall setting for chord recognition but on split keyboard I always use fingered on bass to control inversions. I have been using these settings for so long that I had forgotten about the two fingered bit on AI, but the reason I never used it is exactly because that would not work for me.
The CVP does not have a direct access button. It does have 4 assignable buttons, but they do not let you control fingering modes directly, only pull up the mini fingering modes menu, kind of like the direct access button.
Fred is right though that the registrations can be used for all of this. But I am not a big fan of registrations because I don't like to be too restricted, or get surprises. In the early days of having my PSR I did set up lots of registrations, but then found it was a pain to remember or identify exactly what each one contained and after a while I found that I stopped using them.
However, having said all that, because on my new CVP, I have no registrations set up, I sat down today and set one registration for my basic normal set up, pedal modes, fingering etc, then a second for the alternative fingering mode. I will probably set a couple more for favorite voices, and with just a four or five can probably do everything I need to do.
Mike
 

Offline mikf

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2017, 03:51:12 PM »
Fred
I set up the two registrations with different fingering modes, but now that I eventually got round ton trying to switch between modes I realize it is not working. Having spent a bit more time on it I don't think it's possible to use a registration to set and recall a fingeringbset up - or am I missing something.
Mike
 

Offline tyrosaurus

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2017, 05:22:15 PM »
Hi Mike,

According to the Parameter Chart in the CVP-709/705 Data List, the chord fingering type is saved in registrations as part of the 'Style' group parameters.

So you need to make sure that the 'Style' group is checked in the 'Registration Group' table that appears when you press 'Memory' to begin the registration memorising process*.  Obviously doing this will also save the other parameters such as Style, style part, Right main voice parts etc. so if you want to try using registrations to select different fingering types without changing anything else, don't change anything other than the fingering type before memorising the second registration!

* I see that on a CVP-709/705, pressing the 'Memory' button opens a message window which it seems does not show the Group list by default.  You need to press the  '>' (right arrow) icon at the bottom left of the window to call up the list for selecting the items to be registered.   Before going on to press the Registration Memory Button that you want to use, enter or remove checkmarks by touching the desired items. Items having checkmarks will be registered.

If you are already doing the above but the fingering type is not being changed, then you should check the 'Parameter Lock' table on the 'Utility' display to see if you currently have Fingering Type checked!  If it is checked then Registrations will not be able to change the fingering type!


Regards

Ian
 

Offline Fred Smith

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2017, 05:52:47 PM »
Fred
I set up the two registrations with different fingering modes, but now that I eventually got round ton trying to switch between modes I realize it is not working. Having spent a bit more time on it I don't think it's possible to use a registration to set and recall a fingeringbset up - or am I missing something.
Mike

What you're missing is that you need to ensure that Style is checked in the Registration Group screen. Fingering mode is part of the Style group.

Fred
Fred Smith,
Saskatoon, SK
Sun Lakes, AZ
Tyros 4, Bose L1, Finale 2011
Check out my Registration Lessons
 

Offline mikf

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2017, 07:53:27 PM »
Thanks Fred - I will try that. I'm fascinated to know how you possibly could have found that out ;D
Mike
 

Offline Fred Smith

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2017, 08:25:05 PM »
Thanks Fred - I will try that. I'm fascinated to know how you possibly could have found that out ;D
Mike

Reading the manuals. Perusing posts on this forum.

Fred
Fred Smith,
Saskatoon, SK
Sun Lakes, AZ
Tyros 4, Bose L1, Finale 2011
Check out my Registration Lessons
 

Offline Mjm

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2017, 11:32:52 PM »
Thanks Fred - I will try that. I'm fascinated to know how you possibly could have found that out ;D
Mike

If you've ever looked at Fred's registration lessons, you'll know how He found it out. They are a very good resource for learning how to do many different things via registrations on your keyboard.  Thanks Fred. ☺

Regards,

Mark

Offline jwyvern

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2017, 11:50:17 PM »
Reading the manuals. Perusing posts on this forum.

Fred

Also poking around on the keyboard and experimenting for yourself. For me the knowledge seems to stick better and become intuitive more quickly that way.
John
 

Offline mikf

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2017, 02:58:52 AM »
Quote
Obviously doing this will also save the other parameters such as Style, style part, Right main voice parts etc. so if you want to try using registrations to select different fingering types without changing anything else, don't change anything other than the fingering type before memorising the second registration!

I realize now that this would still not do what I want and that I was correct in my post at the top of the thread,  - you cannot do this on a Yamaha the way you can on a Korg, and there is no good workaround. To do so would mean you would have to set the registrations specifically for each song, exactly what I want to avoid.
I can see why people would have difficulty seeing why anyone would have to do this, but actually on a CVP it is pretty essential because having the full keyboard piano would be a standard fingering set up for most players since it is primarily a piano. It also has all the lead voices like any Tyros or PSR, but you cannot access them effectively without changing fingering mode, because it would be silly to have an instrument like sax or trumpet over the whole keyboard. Yes, you can do this with a registration if you plan and set up in advance the arrangement for every song but that feels  pretty restrictive to me.
Mike
 

Offline valimaties

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2017, 04:35:17 AM »
I use AI mode till Tyros 2. When I had PA2 and PA3 I used Expert Mode, it's the same as AI from Yamaha. My colleque is always complains that I change too much chords ( ;D ) but it sounds more professional ;)

Mike, I have a propose: go buy a Korg ;) if that "missing" option means all to you ;) I don't care anymore what Korg is able to do ;) I, because I have Yamaha, I will sound better than a Korg, with fifteen thousand function ;)
That's very boring and disturbing in the same way.. No more Korg can and Yamaha can't do... go buy Korg, is better to you ;)
« Last Edit: November 11, 2017, 04:39:37 AM by valimaties »
______________________________________________
Vali Matieş - Genos
 

Offline Fred Smith

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2017, 06:12:58 AM »
I realize now that this would still not do what I want and that I was correct in my post at the top of the thread,  - you cannot do this on a Yamaha the way you can on a Korg, and there is no good workaround. To do so would mean you would have to set the registrations specifically for each song, exactly what I want to avoid.
I can see why people would have difficulty seeing why anyone would have to do this, but actually on a CVP it is pretty essential because having the full keyboard piano would be a standard fingering set up for most players since it is primarily a piano. It also has all the lead voices like any Tyros or PSR, but you cannot access them effectively without changing fingering mode, because it would be silly to have an instrument like sax or trumpet over the whole keyboard. Yes, you can do this with a registration if you plan and set up in advance the arrangement for every song but that feels  pretty restrictive to me.
Mike

Here is the workaround:

1. Create a user style.
2. With this style loaded, memorize your fingering mode to a registration.
3. Delete the user style.

Now your registration will work the way you want it to. It works because the registration changes the fingering mode, then looks around for the style you memorized, can't find it, so it makes no changes to the style.

Fred
Fred Smith,
Saskatoon, SK
Sun Lakes, AZ
Tyros 4, Bose L1, Finale 2011
Check out my Registration Lessons
 

Offline mikf

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2017, 08:31:13 AM »
Fred
Thanks. That is very clever. I will try it.
I found another workaround. You set an assignment button to fingering/split. Then when you press it the screen shows the fingering set up, and you scroll to the other set up on the screen. Its works kind of like the direct access button, which doesn't exist on a CVP. I find it works OK, but not as slick as what you suggest.
My overall set up aim is a single registration bank which contains my base set up , pedals, normal fingering (AI full keyboard), main instrument which is the Bosendorfer Grand. I always have the three pedals set to sustain, tap tempo, style stop start. Then I have 6 other favorite voices in the remaining registrations, with a little sticky under the row to indicate which is which. I find that these 6 voices cover 90% plus of what I use for live playing. On the touch screen, its very easy to switch voices between R1 and R2, or layer, so there really is a lot of voices available with just 6 registrations.  I wanted one more set up registration to change the fingering mode. Then I would have a set up that only requires me to select a style before I start. Everything else remains the same all the time.
On a piano of course there is nothing to set up, and I hardly ever use music, so I have become used to just sitting down and playing whatever people ask, or comes into my head, with no real preparation. But this set up will get me almost to that, while still allowing the style and voices of an arranger.
Mike
 

Offline mikf

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2017, 07:04:25 AM »
Fred
Tried your suggestion - worked just as you said, exactly what I wanted. Thanks. Would never have thought of that myself, the collective knowledge of this website on these keyboards is impressive.
Mike
 

Offline Fred Smith

Re: Fingering mode
« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2017, 07:49:35 AM »
Fred
Tried your suggestion - worked just as you said, exactly what I wanted. Thanks. Would never have thought of that myself, the collective knowledge of this website on these keyboards is impressive.
Mike

Glad I could help.

Fred
Fred Smith,
Saskatoon, SK
Sun Lakes, AZ
Tyros 4, Bose L1, Finale 2011
Check out my Registration Lessons