Author Topic: Articulations  (Read 1525 times)

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Offline pjd

Articulations
« on: October 16, 2017, 07:08:34 AM »
Hi --

I had a chance to think a little more about the Genos specs. There is quite a big jump in the number of Mega Voices, Super Articulation voices, and Super Articulation 2 voices -- a bigger increase than we've seen with previous Tyros-to-Tyros upgrades.

This is enabled by the new tone generation hardware.

I think the end result will be highly detailed, expressive voices that are fun to play. It ain't no accident that Yamaha added a third articulation button in addition to the knobs and sliders.

I can't wait to play this thing!

More at: http://sandsoftwaresound.net/genos-articulation-future/

All the best -- pj
 
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Offline voodoo

Re: Articulations
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2017, 07:19:35 AM »
This reads, like you are thinking seriously about getting the next thing... ;)
Yamaha Genos (finally)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline pjd

Re: Articulations
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2017, 07:25:48 AM »
This reads, like you are thinking seriously about getting the next thing... ;)

Hi Uli --

Definitely! It looks like the all-in-one instrument that I can use. Can't wait to see the Data List and to try the voices on the real thing.

I'm even scouting stores in the Vancouver/Victoria area. I'll be out there next month... (I've given up on Boston.  ::) )

All the best -- pj

P.S. Off to the gym so I can build my muscles for carrying it.  :D

Offline CRTyros

Re: Articulations
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2017, 07:57:24 AM »
Hi PJ,
Always a pleasure reading your technical insight.

So do you think that Genos will incorporate bigger waves than the Tyros? Meaning more detail of each sound?
/Claudio
 

Offline Marcus

Re: Articulations
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2017, 08:07:06 AM »
Pg
I enjoy your knowledge, info and articles. Yes, a big jump in the number various voice types on the Genos. I also noticed that a lot of the Tyros 5 SA2 voices now have that third articulation added.

A huge increase in Mega voices means more awesome Genos style programming and more ultra realistic voices, plus more Mega voice options to use as voice substitutions when modifying your styles in Style Creator. Yamaha programming is among the very best in the world, and certainly the Genos is the pinicle of arranger style technology and authentic realism.

Your article and info on Mega voice creation and the YEM was very interesting. Yamaha has actually accessed more use from within the 8 element limit per Mega voice in a style part. I have seen up to two extra sub-channels used in a Yamaha Style voice part making a much more complexed use of the MEGA voice.

For instance, a Yamaha style might incorporate a Mega voice in the Bass part. Instead of just programming that Mega voice in a single Channel (usually channel 11) within the confines of the 8 elements and certain pan, DSP effects etc, Yamaha allows ultra realism and sophistication by adding additional programming of that voice in sub-channels (any where in channels 1-8). The fact that the style is using these hiden sub- channels 1 through 8 doesn't use up or affect voice hand parts or the multipads sharing these channel. I guess because the arranger is 32 multitimbral.

It took me a while to figure this out, because when I copy certain style parts/patterns to a Multipad part, the part suddenly becomes fairly bland, missing all the fine quality programming intricacies, panning/DSP effects etc. This is because only the single channel (9 through 16) from the style is being copied to a Multipad, the two sub- channels and programming info is missing. I guess the similar idea as making the style drum part more complex by using two channels (channels 9 and 10) at the same time, which could included different drum kits or other effects.

Also working on in certain external style programs, the style sub- channels are shown and accessible. I also program my own style intros, not from scratch, but record my custom intros by playing/recording an intro on my Tyros 5 usually using the Main Vararion A, which makes a perfect transition after the intro plays from the created intro. The recorded intro ( a set MIDI recording in a predetermined length of bars) is converted into a style intro part in external software ( in key of C), exported back to my Tyros 5 and reassembled back into my Custom style in Style Creator and saved with my custom intro.

I do like the previous Tyros 5 Audio Styles and some hybrid versions I saved, but MIDI is so much more flexible, and actually can sound just as real as "live" recordings. More Revo, Mega and SA types the better. Almost sounds like I will be getting a Genos as well  ;).

Marcus
Gear: Triangle
 
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Offline StuartR

Re: Articulations
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2017, 10:14:34 AM »
Hi --

I had a chance to think a little more about the Genos specs. There is quite a big jump in the number of Mega Voices, Super Articulation voices, and Super Articulation 2 voices -- a bigger increase than we've seen with previous Tyros-to-Tyros upgrades.

This is enabled by the new tone generation hardware.

I think the end result will be highly detailed, expressive voices that are fun to play. It ain't no accident that Yamaha added a third articulation button in addition to the knobs and sliders.

I can't wait to play this thing!

More at: http://sandsoftwaresound.net/genos-articulation-future/

All the best -- pj

Another wonderful technical article Paul. Great insight and explanation about this musically expressive technology. If the new Genos SA2 voices sound as good as the previous ones I may say goodbye to my Montage and just use the Genos.
 
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Offline pjd

Re: Articulations
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2017, 11:16:47 AM »
For instance, a Yamaha style might incorporate a Mega voice in the Bass part. Instead of just programming that Mega voice in a single Channel (usually channel 11) within the confines of the 8 elements and certain pan, DSP effects etc, Yamaha allows ultra realism and sophistication by adding additional programming of that voice in sub-channels (any where in channels 1-8). The fact that the style is using these hidden sub- channels 1 through 8 doesn't use up or affect voice hand parts or the multipads sharing these channel. I guess because the arranger is 32 multitimbral.

Hi Marcus --

Thank you for this insight! I crawl through Yamaha styles, too, and never noticed this aspect of their programming.

Thanks, again -- pj
 

Offline voodoo

Re: Articulations
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2017, 11:20:25 AM »
I believe that these sub channels are visible when the style is loaded in MixMaster.....
Yamaha Genos (finally)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline Lloyd E

Re: Articulations
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2017, 11:23:20 AM »
Informative article. Thanks for posting this info..    Lloyd
Music is the way to go
 

Offline voodoo

Re: Articulations
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2017, 11:24:24 AM »
Pj,

Thanks for your new input for technical discussion. ;)

While thinking about these I wonder, when the new keyboard should be so much better and has so much more wave rom available, why won't the premium voice expansions like sa2 saxophone be available in the Genos by default?

Uli
Yamaha Genos (finally)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline pjd

Re: Articulations
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2017, 11:37:24 AM »
This reads, like you are thinking seriously about getting the next thing... ;)

Hi --

I really did need to run to the gym. Back now.  :)

Most (99.9%) of what I play needs "imitative synthesis" for lack of a better term. I need orchestral instruments, guitars, organ, electronic piano, sax, jazz flute, etc. I'm not really into inventing new sounds. Genos looks like a better fit for my needs than Montage.

I have deep respect for the Montage. However, Yamaha implements SArt2 on Genos (and later Tyros models), not the Motif/Montage "synthesizer" products. Probably a wise business move on their part even though SArt2 is in demand in Montage-ville.

Do I create new voices from scratch? Yes, I do. All of my gig patches on the MOX6 are customized in some way. (I currently don't gig with the PSR-S950). 3 layers plus a split should cover most of my programming needs. I'm thinking that YEM might handle the rest. At a minimum, I kill the reverb. The church has plenty of that.  ;)

When I go to test, I'll pay most attention to playing exposed lines: classical flute, oboe, violin, cello. It'll be interesting to learn, play and hear the available articulations. Ensembles could be useful, but will need serious study and woodshedding.

Anyway, that's just a few more details about my current thinking.

All the best -- pj
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 11:43:00 AM by pjd »
 

Offline pjd

Re: Articulations
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2017, 11:50:46 AM »
So do you think that Genos will incorporate bigger waves than the Tyros? Meaning more detail of each sound?

Hi Claudio  --

Not to put too fine a point on it, yes. There is a Montage demo by Martin Harris in which he said that greater detail was a specific goal in Montage sound development. This should be a goal for Genos, too.

I think the new generation hardware gives Yamaha the freedom to use bigger waveforms with more sonic detail as well as to increase the number of articulation types.

Montage++ could be utterly fantastic if it borrows from Genos. I don't think the current Montage platform has enough physical memory space to add waveforms, so it can't be done through a software update alone, BTW.

Take care -- pj
 

Offline pjd

Re: Articulations
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2017, 11:54:54 AM »
While thinking about these I wonder, when the new keyboard should be so much better and has so much more wave ROM available, why won't the premium voice expansions like sa2 saxophone be available in the Genos by default?

Hi Uli --

Man, oh, man, I don't know how they make decisions like this. Maybe they're just afraid of clobbering sales through Yamaha Musicsoft?

|: We'll have to see the new Data List. :|

-- pj
 
 

Offline pjd

Re: Articulations
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2017, 11:58:32 AM »
Another wonderful technical article Paul. Great insight and explanation about this musically expressive technology. If the new Genos SA2 voices sound as good as the previous ones I may say goodbye to my Montage and just use the Genos.

Hi Stuart --

Forgot to mention -- A member of the Yamaha Synth forum sez that he is getting a Genos soon and will make a comparison against Montage. The chap sounds knowledgeable, so his post should be informative.

All the best -- pj

Offline tyrosaurus

Re: Articulations
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2017, 12:04:49 PM »
Yamaha has actually accessed more use from within the 8 element limit per Mega voice in a style part. I have seen up to two extra sub-channels used in a Yamaha Style voice part making a much more complexed use of the MEGA voice.

For instance, a Yamaha style might incorporate a Mega voice in the Bass part. Instead of just programming that Mega voice in a single Channel (usually channel 11) within the confines of the 8 elements and certain pan, DSP effects etc, Yamaha allows ultra realism and sophistication by adding additional programming of that voice in sub-channels (any where in channels 1-8). The fact that the style is using these hiden sub- channels 1 through 8 doesn't use up or affect voice hand parts or the multipads sharing these channel. I guess because the arranger is 32 multitimbral.

Hi Marcus,

Can you suggest a Yamaha preset style (or post a third party one) that uses MegaVoices in the above manner and demonstrates the effect.

I was aware that style parts could play different MIDI tracks (on different MIDI channels) based on the chord type played (eg. Maj. or Min.), from which the style engine uses the CASM settings to select the track to be played, but I wasn't aware of what you are talking about.

It would be interesting to look into such a style in MixMaster.


Regards

Ian
 

Offline voodoo

Re: Articulations
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2017, 12:39:08 PM »
Pj,

I have made the same decision. I am interested in deep voice editing. But in real live, I will never use it. I don't have the time to explore all the deep grounds of the Montage. For sit and play the Genos is much better suited. And there is still enough room for creative sound design.

And an important part of this decision is the valuable discussion in this forum.

Uli
Yamaha Genos (finally)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline voodoo

Re: Articulations
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2017, 12:41:10 PM »
|: We'll have to see the new Data List. :|

Wonderful.  :D :D
Yamaha Genos (finally)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline Marcus

Re: Articulations
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2017, 01:04:21 PM »
Hi Marcus,

Can you suggest a Yamaha preset style (or post a third party one) that uses MegaVoices in the above manner and demonstrates the effect.

I was aware that style parts could play different MIDI tracks (on different MIDI channels) based on the chord type played (eg. Maj. or Min.), from which the style engine uses the CASM settings to select the track to be played, but I wasn't aware of what you are talking about.

It would be interesting to look into such a style in MixMaster.


Regards

Ian

Here is an example with a style I worked on previously in the StyleMagicYa program. The first photo shows the style channels loaded on my Tyros 5 for Style Main Variation "A" from the Mixing Console and Style Creator.

The second photo is a screen capture from the StyleMagic program. The same style and Main Variation "A" is open in program's Channels Manager. Channel 11 has a Mega Bass voice, with a sub-channel on channel 2, while a Mega Guitar part on Channel 12 has another sub-channel on 3. Yamaha does complex programming on two channels and I have seen up to three for the same Mega voice part.

I have no access in the Tyros 5 Style Creator for the sub-channels, however some edits may affect the sub-channels while editing styles channels 8-16, but I have no way to confirm or see the sub-parts. Also when converting a style part into a Multipad the sub-channels and those related effects are not present and are not copied. All these channels sound and play at the same time from within StyleMagic, therefore I doubt has anything to do with chord type played.

I haven't tried MixMaster, but perhaps these sub-channels are viewed in that program as well.

Regards, Marcus
Gear: Triangle
 

Offline StuartR

Re: Articulations
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2017, 06:29:06 PM »
Hi Stuart --

Forgot to mention -- A member of the Yamaha Synth forum sez that he is getting a Genos soon and will make a comparison against Montage. The chap sounds knowledgeable, so his post should be informative.

All the best -- pj

Mine is in the first group of 20 coming to Frank so I should get it in the next several weeks, depending on how many he gets in his first shipment this week.
I'll be placing it into the rack above my Montage and using it with my six piece band. Shouldn't take long to see how it does and I'll let you know.

Stuart.
 
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Offline soundphase

Re: Articulations
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2017, 09:28:20 PM »
Hi --

I had a chance to think a little more about the Genos specs. There is quite a big jump in the number of Mega Voices, Super Articulation voices, and Super Articulation 2 voices -- a bigger increase than we've seen with previous Tyros-to-Tyros upgrades.

This is enabled by the new tone generation hardware.

I think the end result will be highly detailed, expressive voices that are fun to play. It ain't no accident that Yamaha added a third articulation button in addition to the knobs and sliders.

I can't wait to play this thing!

More at: http://sandsoftwaresound.net/genos-articulation-future/

All the best -- pj

Thank you very much. Your synthesis is very useful.
It helps us to understand that for Yamaha, Genos is a big step (bandwidth, direct access to SSD...), even if for its users, it appears as a continuity from Tyros.

It's sure that there will be Genos 2, 3, 4.... that will take profit from this new architecture.

Regards
Soundphase.
 

Offline StuartR

Re: Articulations
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2017, 12:38:56 PM »
Hi Stuart --

Forgot to mention -- A member of the Yamaha Synth forum sez that he is getting a Genos soon and will make a comparison against Montage. The chap sounds knowledgeable, so his post should be informative.

All the best -- pj

As much as I like the Montage, after playing the Genos I think I'll sell my Montage. As I don't need the ability to create or shape sounds, the Genos should be enough. Also the ability you use accompaniment when one or two band members aren't there is a requirement. I've tried adding bass and drum parts to my Montage performances but it isn't nearly as seamless as with an arranger keyboard.
 

Offline pjd

Re: Articulations
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2017, 01:55:10 PM »
Hi Stuart --

Sounds like your sold. I'm driving down to Audioworks CT this week in order to give the Genos a try.

There's a lot to like in the Montage. The sound is great. However, right now I'm giving Genos the edge on SArt2 voices (especially classical instruments), ease of set-up and playback when using audio backing tracks, and a better "drawbar mode." I will still need to do some work pulling together the layers, organ registrations, etc. that I need, but I would be doing that on the Montage, anyway.

Should be interesting to finally play the actual machine!

Thanks for the report back and have fun -- pj
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 06:21:28 AM by pjd »
 

Offline StuartR

Re: Articulations
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2017, 07:07:29 PM »
Hi Stuart --

Sounds like your sold. I'm driving down to Audioworks CT this week in order to give the Genos a try.

There's a lot to like in the Montage. The sound is great. However, right now I'm giving Genos the edge on SArt2 voices (especially classical instruments), easy of set-up and playback when using audio backing tracks, and a better "drawbar mode." I will still need to do some work pulling together the layers, organ registrations, etc. that I need, but I would be doing that on the Montage, anyway.

Should be interesting to finally play the actual machine!

Thanks for the report back and have fun -- pj
I heartedly agree with you about the SArt2 voices. I really missed them when I switched to the Montage. While the Montage has several thousand more voices to use, it's more trouble than feature for me. Just too much to wade through. I've found the Tyros 5 and Genos have a lot fewer but much more playable voices. And despite having far fewer voices, there's better coverage of the whole spectrum of instruments.

BTW, I do believe the keybed on the Genos is even better than on the Tyros 5. Not a lot, but noticeable to me. And of course the look and feel...no comparison.

I'll be interested in your hands-on review when you get back from Frank's place.