Author Topic: Genos vs Montage+Cubase  (Read 920 times)

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Offline pjd

Genos vs Montage+Cubase
« on: October 07, 2017, 10:58:50 AM »
Well, the inevitable Genos vs. Montage discussion has begun on the Yamaha Synth forum:

https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/genos-vs-montage-cubase

This section of our forum seems to be the most appropriate place to re-post. The Genos section here should focus now on learning about Genos and playing it, not getting mired in Montage comparisons.

Phil Clendeninn (Bad Mister) of Yamaha made some interesting comments. I'm going to re-post his comments here. His comments are worth reading even if you're busy and blow off the whole discussion on the Yamaha Synth forum. Phil is well-respected.

All the best -- pj
« Last Edit: October 07, 2017, 11:55:57 AM by pjd »
 
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Offline pjd

Re: Genos vs Montage+Cubase
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2017, 11:00:02 AM »
From: Bad Mister (Phil Clendeninn)
Subject: Genos vs Montage+Cubase

An inevitable discussion, I would imagine.

What Iíd like see is less "guessing" about what the corporate intentions were and the silly conspiracy theory type stuff that discussions like this always dissolve into. If we all agree that stating what we each think Yamaha should make makes us feel better but may have no basis in reality or no possibility of ever happening because none of us has all the information necessary to actually make that happen.

We can all only speak about what we do musically, and what we may want personally. (And for me thatís interesting). But when someone tries to speak for more than themselves, from this side, it is less interesting, because it no longer is constructive from that point on.

"Everybody wants..." instead of "I write music, I need..." I tend to read the latter with interest -- itís going to be musical in nature and the former is often filled with that individualís thoughts on how it would be if they ruled the world or made the decisions. Those discussions can be interesting but mostly they hardly ever lead to anything constructive.

If there were any ground rules (loosely) letís agree:
1. The MONTAGE is not a Motif XF, nor is it a Motif anything.
2. The GENOS is not a Tyros 5, nor is it a Tyros anything.

The change in name, is not trivial. It is expensive, time consuming (both names were leaked by musicians working in the Patent Office years ago) but is done to signify a change in direction. A change in concept, focus. If we wanted you to think it was the same weíd have kept the series name, (duh!)

Buying an Arranger when you're focused on Sound Design, would be as wrong as buying a keyboard that focuses on Sound Design when you need an Arranger. The move from Music Production Synthesizer (which is what the Motif XF was) with its Integrated Sampling Sequencer, to Music Synthesizer (which is what MONTAGE is) with its Motion Control Engine is significant. Certainly more than enough for it not to be called Motif XYZ.

Likewise, the change in focus and concept in GENOS over the focus and direction of Tyros is just as significant and profound, certainly enough to warranty a series name change. Of significance, the video of the Nashville songwriter, who can quickly recall a general music genre, then start to customize details of the accompaniment. It maybe hard to translate but the interaction between the musical Parts is much more controllable. These moveable parts can inspire those who write music for a living.

If you are an "Arranger person" that does the traditional "Arranger" thing - creating real time backing tracks on a high level... then youíll understand whatís happening in GENOS, youíll understand where it is built up from... youíll also see that as a writer of songs, GENOS becomes an unbelievable resource of musical content, stretching across recent music history... inspiring accompaniment. Sonically breath taking, of course.

Like in MONTAGE, if you get into constructing, for lack of a better term, "musical montages" that include multiple Parts, multiple arpeggios, Motion Sequences, etc... when designing sounds, you can create these incredible sound scapes that are compelling, inspiring. Breath taking. (I get calls from folks who get lost in the Montage for hours at a time... it can be inspiring)!

If your writing music for hire, jingles, pop tunes, etc. having a GENOS as a tool would make sense... just how quickly can one put together an authentic sounding 60ís or 80ís track?

If your writing music for hire, and your clients are looking for sci-fi, or music for games and gaming consoles, a MONTAGE would would make sense... "... can you make me the sound of ping-pong balls bouncing on clouds?"

Focus of the content, flexibility of what and how you get involved in editing, reformatting, customizing the content that is provided... these are the things to consider between the two instruments. The two instruments are very, very different when viewed this way. If your only concern is which has the best piano sound... we can talk about that when we decide if Coke is better than Pepsi... itís important to buy the instrument because it meets your requirements.

Those are broad strokes. Is there a customer overlap? Of course. Could you justify having both, sure. Are they the same? No. Will you recognize certain items/functions/features reshaped/reformatted in each, sure... it is the same company. But try to see the FOCUS each has, then see if what you do now fits. If not, see if what is on offer (which the company surely thinks is "new") is actually some thing you may never have seen or used before. But donít dismiss it based only on what you already know or have used in the past. If that is all you have to offer (itís just less interesting in the discussion) I guess Iím trying to say donít dismiss something without giving it a fair chance.

If you canít afford both, not to worry, you have a lot of company, there. But if you make a living writing music, the technology in these two products represent the cutting edge - each has a focus... one on do-it-yourself sound design, the other toward the craft of writing songs.

If thatís not what you do, sticking with what works for you is not a bad thing, no need to apologize when a new product is not for you.

The focus of the Motif series was based around the ISS approach to music assembly... sampling and sequencing, both separately and together.

The focus of Tyros series was based around the real time song performance... live interaction with the tech to construct/arrange a song.

The new focus of MONTAGE is based on creative sound design utilizing the previous series' tech and combining it with an FM-X engine. Interaction between the engines is achieved via a new controller matrix that includes motion control, side chain modulation, etc,. The focus of GENOS is based on the real time song construction concept of its previous series, but with a greater concentration (focus) on fashioning an inspiring backing environment in which to write songs.

This is not to say that any of these products canít move in many directions, and nothing says you canít use them to do what they are not necessarily focused on... these are broad general strokes. The devil is in the details and the details are going to be slightly different for each of us.

The GENOS is not a synthesizer (reason it is not included here on Yamaha Synth); the MONTAGE is a synthesizer. Editing at the Element level is not something youíll expect to see ... selecting which Element sounds *when*, is not something youíll expect to see... if you know Synthesizers you know MONTAGE is a synthesizer.

 
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Offline ticktock

Re: Genos vs Montage+Cubase
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2017, 11:30:49 AM »
Very good comments. That helps me understand the differences between these 2 instruments.
Thanks PJ.
Ted
 

Online Roger Brenizer

Re: Genos vs Montage+Cubase
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2017, 11:42:12 AM »
Interesting read, Paul.  Thank you for posting.  :)
"Music Is My Life"
My best regards,
Roger

(The older I get...the better I used to be...LOL!!!)
Rogerís PSR Performer Page
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Genos vs Montage+Cubase
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2017, 12:48:14 PM »
Paul,

I have to say that Phil has really gotten good at the BS.  Yourself as a digital engineer can surely understand the arranger architecture.  I... having worked very hard to understand how the arranger is designed and how to use it... I feel Phil's explanation is over simplified and falls short. There is nothing much new about the Genos software architecture, having now looked over the Owner's and Reference manuals... while there are definitely some new things on the hardware side, to say the Genos is not a Tyros is misleading.  It operates the same save the touch screen and a change (improved) in the Panel hardware controls for the Live Control function.

If people are confused it's because of Yamaha's very poor presentation which Phil gives a good synopsis of in that post. Though a little bit short and a little bit late.   I joined that forum and quit a week later because of Phil... who is a guy quite knowledgeable, but also quite full of himself.

If you are non-technical and ignorant of the facts then Phil's explanations can be quite impressive.

Joe H
« Last Edit: October 07, 2017, 03:37:15 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline pjd

Re: Genos vs Montage+Cubase
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2017, 06:49:34 AM »
Hi --

If someone is undecided about choosing an arranger vs. a synth, I hope they read Phil's post. It's one more opinion which may help them to make a decision.

Could I quibble with a point here or there? Yes. However, I feel that quibbling would detract from the main message about making a choice based on one's own musical goals, process, work flow and needs after a period of self-reflection. With respect to the main message, Phil and I are aligned.

All the best, everyone -- pj

P.S. Even though I posted this link elsewhere, undecided folk may want to keep an eye on Stephen Fortner's comments at Synth Expert: https://www.synth-expert.com/news-blog/2017/10/6/why-arranger-keyboards-matter

Offline voodoo

Re: Genos vs Montage+Cubase
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2017, 01:46:59 AM »
Thanks for this link to Bad Misters view of the world.

It shows how Yamaha sees the different focus of the two worlds. But I must agree Joe, that this point of view is over simplified. By its architecture the Genos IS a Tyros 6 with touch screen and live controls. And Korg shows us, that arranger keyboards with voice editing capabilities are possible and welcome.

Reading some more remarks in that forum shows, that the Genos has much to offer that Montage does not, like Revo drums, Ensemble voices, drawbar organ, easy usage concept and so on. So we should not only complain what Genos doesn't have, but also appreciate what Genos does offer more than the Montage.

Uli
Yamaha Genos (finally)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline Tommy 73

Re: Genos vs Montage+Cubase
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2017, 02:33:06 AM »
I see them both for what they are and according to your own personal abilities and what you won't form either will determine if you buy one or the other or both.. if there are to be any over laps with any comparisons all you can do is study them both and spend time with them... not try to play one of against the other... so here are some organs on Montage...not bad  :) https://youtu.be/z-1C3bFdxac
((((A@424HZ))))
 

Re: Genos vs Montage+Cubase
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2017, 04:30:08 PM »
Hi --

If someone is undecided about choosing an arranger vs. a synth, I hope they read Phil's post. It's one more opinion which may help them to make a decision.

Could I quibble with a point here or there? Yes. However, I feel that quibbling would detract from the main message about making a choice based on one's own musical goals, process, work flow and needs after a period of self-reflection. With respect to the main message, Phil and I are aligned.

All the best, everyone -- pj

P.S. Even though I posted this link elsewhere, undecided folk may want to keep an eye on Stephen Fortner's comments at Synth Expert: https://www.synth-expert.com/news-blog/2017/10/6/why-arranger-keyboards-matter


I honestly believe that everyone should wait until Yamaha releases the data-list, reference manual and some professional demonstrations and most importantly the YEM softwarer. This is the most awkward release of a product I've seen so far! The product is out but the manuals are not out yet. With all respect and apology, it is very stupid if someone buys Genos without going through these first!

And I should agree with Joe H partially that Yamaha did not in all fairness produced a better synth. As its name says, Montage is a synthesizer and in that department, there is 0 improvement.. Now there are other cool features of course that I appreciate Yamaha added. But the AWM2 synth engine which is the core of MOTIF XF series and Montage hasn't been improved.

. From the sound synthesis point of view, Montage has AWM2 synth engine which is 100% identical to MOTIF XF. Now, Since I mainly use LogicPro and MainStage and VSTs in them if I ever want a killer FM voice I'll load a VST.

Paul,

I have to say that Phil has really gotten good at the BS.  Yourself as a digital engineer can surely understand the arranger architecture.  I... having worked very hard to understand how the arranger is designed and how to use it... I feel Phil's explanation is over simplified and falls short. There is nothing much new about the Genos software architecture, having now looked over the Owner's and Reference manuals... while there are definitely some new things on the hardware side, to say the Genos is not a Tyros is misleading.  It operates the same save the touch screen and a change (improved) in the Panel hardware controls for the Live Control function.

If people are confused it's because of Yamaha's very poor presentation which Phil gives a good synopsis of in that post. Though a little bit short and a little bit late.   I joined that forum and quit a week later because of Phil... who is a guy quite knowledgeable, but also quite full of himself.

If you are non-technical and ignorant of the facts then Phil's explanations can be quite impressive.

Joe H

Phil is quite a knowledgeable person. He works for Yamaha. If you're expecting him no to advertise and exaggerate Yamaha products then you're making a BIG mistake.

The other approach you can take though is to be thankful for him for teaching you how your Yamaha gears work and get an insight from him!

Another approach is to say Ahhhh this is BS and I quit. Not so smart in my humble opinion.

Now, of course, all of these companies have some roadmap for their product lines. For example, when the MOX came out you could see the place, where later in MOXF, the added the memory. It means the plastic case of MOX was the same as MOXF and they do even use the same printed mainboard with MOX missing some chipsets. That means MOXF was already designed when MOX came out.

Specification-wise, Yamaha could do much better. The arranger capabilities of Genos is not modified drastically which is a shame. An arranger must be good in arranging and Genos is not certainly good in arranging a piece of music. Indeed it cannot reproduce the onboard demos. At this stage and unless the reference manual and data-list are not out, for me Genos is not a prosumer product.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 04:31:44 PM by Jean Abdou »
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