Author Topic: Windows MIDI's as played thru Tyros 4  (Read 1079 times)

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Offline Mellontikos

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Windows MIDI's as played thru Tyros 4
« on: June 04, 2017, 01:11:47 AM »
Hey guys. I thought I'd post this here.

I got a nostalgia craving a few days ago to hear some of the older MIDI's that came with the old Windows 3.1. Some of you guys might remember Canyon.mid, Passport.mid, etc etc.

So a search on YouTube yielded some lower quality "Sound Canvas" stuff, which I wasn't happy with. So I thought, why not play these back thru the Tyros and see how they sound? Well, here's what they sound like:

This is Canyon.mid as played back thru the original Adib/Soundblaster FM chip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPkwIn5W0IE

This is Canyon.mid as played back with the stock MIDI wavetable soundfont that comes with Windows 7+ (at least that's what it sounds like):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIW4F285QjA

This is Canyon.mid as played back on my personal Tyros 4, using the Tyros as a MIDI synth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgQUEZwJuQg&t=41s

What a difference huh?

So there's another cool MIDI that I love even more called, MetBlast.mid

Not many YouTube versions of it, the only one I could find was this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4momt3h4oEw  (metblast starts at 5:05)

This is the one I played back on my Tyros 4:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMyVu0hb6qo


So that was pretty good, but I wasn't happy with it. Sounded muddy and some instruments didn't sound right, so I decided to go all out on that one. I opened MetBlast.mid in Reason 6.5 (which I use as a DAW) and replaced all the sounds with my best interpretation, and remastered it as best as I could.

And here is the result:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joR0wUp00ks

What do you guys think?



 

Offline dE.niz

Re: Windows MIDI's as played thru Tyros 4
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2017, 04:52:36 AM »
I like the song ,i like reason ,i have now 9.5 and it is great.
Witch drum have you used in this song?

Denis
Reason 9 - Logic pro 9 - midi keyboard controller Pcr 800 - Tyros 4 Black - Strat.
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Windows MIDI's as played thru Tyros 4
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2017, 07:18:50 AM »
Hi Henry,

I think your demos demonstrate the value of MIDI files over audio files. And that's why I choose to stay with MIDI and have no interest in the future of audio styles.

 ;)

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: Windows MIDI's as played thru Tyros 4
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2017, 08:11:28 AM »
I think it's interesting how some of the voices are so much softer in volume on the Tyros; to me, those parts (channels) actually sound better in Windows simply because their volumes are higher, making them stand out better against the other parts as they were meant to. It's a good illustration of how Yamaha likes to use presets with very low volumes for certain voices. The channel volumes for those parts need to be turned up on the Tyros so they can be properly heard again. But the voices as a whole have a better sound quality on the Tyros. :)
Michael Rideout
YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Windows MIDI's as played thru Tyros 4
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2017, 09:54:18 AM »
Michael,

You wrote:  ..." to me, those parts (channels) actually sound better in Windows simply because their volumes are higher, making them stand out better against the other parts as they were meant to"...

As a remixer, I would say the topic of mixing is totally subjective and is subject to personal interpretation and taste.  There are no rules about it. I have remixed styles to the point of where they have little in common with the original.

Also when it comes to MIDI sound modules, the GM, GS and XG formats helped to establish standards for how Voices respond and play across different manufactures instruments.  But in spite of that, the MIDI file will only sound 100% accurate on the the instrument it was program on.  But... as a remixer, I would say Henry's remix sounds FAR better because of both the improved quality of the sound source and his choice of instruments and applied DSPs.

 :)

Joe H

« Last Edit: June 04, 2017, 09:55:45 AM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: Windows MIDI's as played thru Tyros 4
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2017, 11:30:43 AM »
While I agree that much is subjective, the specific parts I was referring to were clearly meant to be the leading parts in the original, and the sound did stand out nicely against the accompanying parts-- although, in my subjective opinion, the accompanying parts could have been toned down slightly so they weren't competing as much with the lead.

But in the Tyros version, the part which was supposed to be in the lead was much quieter than the accompaniment, making it difficult to hear. I was under the impression that there hadn't been any "remixing" of the file per se, just playing back the original MIDI (and I'm referring to the "Canyon" MIDI) using the equivalent GM1 voices on the Tyros, without fiddling about with the balance of the various channels. So I assumed that this was an issue of how Yamaha set the default volumes for the voices in question, rather than an artistic preference.
Michael Rideout
YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443
 

Offline Mellontikos

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Re: Windows MIDI's as played thru Tyros 4
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2017, 12:12:27 PM »
Quote
I like the song ,i like reason ,i have now 9.5 and it is great.
Witch drum have you used in this song?

Thanks.

If you are referring to MetBlast in Reason, I used the Kong Drum designed, and just individually chose the most "pop" sounding bass and snare. I can open it up and find out the specific names if you want. I mixed all the volumes to match the original, and the drums were the hardest part as I have to move the piano roll data around to match the location on the Kong.

Quote
Hi Henry,

I think your demos demonstrate the value of MIDI files over audio files. And that's why I choose to stay with MIDI and have no interest in the future of audio styles.

I agree 100% with you.

MIDI, because of its nature, is open to doing practically anything you want with it.

I think the problem stems in that fact that thru the 80's, there was no real quality MIDI synth engine, and 99% of people were stuck with that 4-Operator Yamaha OPL Adlib chip, so everything sounded "chiptuney", and it gave MIDI a really bad name outside the professional market.

Even in the 90's, as sound cards got more advanced, none still approached the quality a Motif or Tyros can give you, and even then, the results can still be made better.

Quote
I think it's interesting how some of the voices are so much softer in volume on the Tyros; to me, those parts (channels) actually sound better in Windows simply because their volumes are higher, making them stand out better against the other parts as they were meant to. It's a good illustration of how Yamaha likes to use presets with very low volumes for certain voices. The channel volumes for those parts need to be turned up on the Tyros so they can be properly heard again. But the voices as a whole have a better sound quality on the Tyros

Yes I agree. Damn this is one of my pet peeves with the Tyros. EVERYTHING on this keyboard is badly mixed. This is why I don't use OTS at all in my live performances.

I never got good with registrations, so I just do everything manually, and most of the time I'm only using 3-4 styles with 3-4 instruments, sequentially of course, depending on the song.

I really don't want to take the time and edit every single OTS, although maybe I should to make my life easier.

Quote
Also when it comes to MIDI sound modules, the GM, GS and XG formats helped to establish standards for how Voices respond and play across different manufactures instruments.  But in spite of that, the MIDI file will only sound 100% accurate on the the instrument it was program on.

Hey Joe. Man, you know, the GM, GS, etc standards were great for the time, but what I've noticed is that most synths leave their weakest variation of a sound for the GM table. Even the Tyros does this. There are far better guitars in the Tyros compared to the one chosen for the GM standard.

What's funny as well is that I tried the MegaEnhancer on the MIDI's, and it actually makes them sound worse (even though it's supposed to replace GM instruments with better quality ones from the Board)

Quote
But... as a remixer, I would say Henry's remix sounds FAR better because of both the improved quality of the sound source and his choice of instruments and applied DSPs.

Thanks. I tried to imagine what the original composer wanted it to sound. The piece is clearly trying to be punchier and more in your face than most MIDI modules can muster.

So I tried to stay within the "spirit" of the song, and not go overboard, just touching it up where it needed touching up.

Quote
But in the Tyros version, the part which was supposed to be in the lead was much quieter than the accompaniment, making it difficult to hear. I was under the impression that there hadn't been any "remixing" of the file per se, just playing back the original MIDI (and I'm referring to the "Canyon" MIDI) using the equivalent GM1 voices on the Tyros

That's correct. No retouching of Canyon.mid. At least not yet. The Tyros rendition is actually not bad. And as mentioned before, Tyros is pretty bad for the stock mixing of it's instruments, particularly when using OTS.

I've sampled a few of my favorite sounds from the 01/W, the SY99, etc etc and I had to do a lot of work to get the sounds to match the originals. I had to sample with original FX too, because the Yamaha DSP, while good, was not granular enough (or I can't find an option to get granular with it).

Example, I'm a big fan of the 01/W DynoPiano. On the 01/W, all the sound needs in way of editing is to increase the modulation of the chorus by a tad (I think stock is 0.42 and I usually blast it to 0.63) and you get a kickin' "TX816" style fat FM pad.

The 01/W uses 2 multisamples (elements in Yamaha terminology) to create that sound: PianoPad1 and DWGS EP. The 2 samples, sampled at the highest quality, are probably about 20k in size, everything else is LPF and DSP.

Could never get it right on Tyros, I could get it to sound similar, but no the same. So I had to take the hammer approach: Sample on 01/W with 8 velocities (max Tyros supports) do some editing magic to grab what was around 80 samples in total, for a total size of about 10megs, and map that into a Voice on Tyros. I had to do the exact same thing for SY99's Classic EP (to be fair, Classic EP is a standard dynamic DX7 style patch that evolved dynamically with velocity, so 8 velocity sampling is the closest way to reproduce, unless you have FM synthesis on your board (where the Kronos guys beat us :) )

Offline Mellontikos

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Re: Windows MIDI's as played thru Tyros 4
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2017, 04:07:19 PM »
Thought I'd revive this one.

I have now played back the most known older Windows MIDI's, Canyon.mid, Passport.mid, and Metblast.mid thru my Tyros 4.

I also played the exact same sounds on my Korg N5ex and my Roland BK-5 Arranger (Which I own as a backup to the Tyros, and is surprisingly good considering it was 1/3 the price)

Here's my shameless plug to my YouTube channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0dlxGmF8AWXb3VvPRQsY0A


On a different subject: There was an old old Yamaha keyboard called the PSR-38, and it had a phenomenally good demo that I had actually recorded off the keyboard as a kid and wore out my cassette listening to over and over again.

I finally found it on YouTube, as people had posted demos recorded directly off the keyboard, but NO ONE had done a remix of that great song. So what the heck, I did it, completely from scratch in Reason (now) 9.5.

Would love to hear comments on it.