Author Topic: Styles for 443 but no sound  (Read 3875 times)

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Offline broker22

Styles for 443 but no sound
« on: August 03, 2016, 09:46:26 AM »
Hi guys my brother has a 443 and he downloaded styles from the 550 to his USB stick and plug s the stick into 443 you can see them on the 443 display but when you click on a certain style it shows up but there is no sound anyone have any idea what is wrong  thanks for your help  Cal.
 

Online SeaGtGruff

Re: Styles for 443 but no sound
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2016, 10:54:42 AM »
Just a few questions to get more information and cover a few basics...

Are these the PSR-550 styles that Dick had shared?

Is he having trouble with all of the files, or just some of them?

Has he used any utility programs to convert, edit, or revoice the styles?

Is he using the "Load STY" function to load the desired files into the five User Styles (201 through 205)?
Michael Rideout
YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443
 

Offline broker22

Re: Styles for 443 but no sound
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2016, 02:32:55 PM »
Hi Michael yes the styles are from Dick he's having trouble with most of them but some of them work.He does not know how to convert them but I thought they would work on his keyboard anyway and yes he is using the load style button to load them seems funny that they all wont work thanks for your help  Cal.
 

Offline Dick Rector

Re: Styles for 443 but no sound
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2016, 04:51:56 PM »
Hi Michael and Cal.
Weird, I just loaded a few hundred from the old styles from the 550 in my PSR 2000 and also in the PSR 950, randomly tested them and haven't had a single problem so far.
I am not familiar at all with the mentioned 443 keyboard but they should play a would think. Possible still to large???

Hope it can be solved.
Dick
PSR-2000 and PSR-S950
 

Online SeaGtGruff

Re: Styles for 443 but no sound
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2016, 06:02:55 PM »
he's having trouble with most of them but some of them work.

I downloaded the styles from Dick, as well, so if you can list some of the ones your brother is having trouble with, I'll try them out on my PSR-E443 and see if I can figure out what's up. If I can identify the problem, I'll convert them and post them.
Michael Rideout
YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443
 

Offline broker22

Re: Styles for 443 but no sound
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2016, 05:04:17 AM »
He only got about 5 of them to work and there were a lot of them so if you would you can convert any of them and I will give them to him to try thanks for all your help  Cal.
 

Online SeaGtGruff

Re: Styles for 443 but no sound
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2016, 10:43:11 AM »
I was looking at the style files on my computer last night-- not inside the files themselves, just their file names, file extensions, file sizes, and file formats (i.e., SFF1 vs. SFF2).

They're all in the SFF1 format and have the .STY file extension, which is good.

However, some of the files have names that might be problematic on the PSR-E models due to things like periods within the file names (i.e., aside from the period that precedes the file extension), or other characters that might be an issue. I'll try some of those later to see whether the extra periods and other characters do cause a problem, but in any case it will be best to rename most of the style files so they don't exceed 8 characters (plus the .STY extension, or 12 characters in all), as the PSR-E models can display only 8 characters. (Longer file names are okay, but if two or more files have names that are identical within the first 8 characters then they'll be displayed with identical names and you won't be able to tell them apart.)

The vast majority of the files are small enough, but there are a few that might not load due to their sizes (i.e., they are greater than 50kB). I'll try those and see if they'll load. In any case, the file sizes are likely to get reduced when the files are converted and optimized for the PSR-E443.

I started working on converting the files last night, but didn't get very far. If there are any specific styles in the collection that your brother is especially interested in, let me know which ones they are and I'll do those first. If he's unsure which ones he'd like converted first because he can't hear what they sound like, he can audition them on his computer using one or more of the available utility programs-- e.g., MIDI and Style Player (http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/software/mandsplay/index.htm).
Michael Rideout
YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443
 

Offline broker22

Re: Styles for 443 but no sound
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2016, 11:29:38 AM »
Thanks Michael he's looking for mostly country styles I wont see him for a couple of weeks but I will check with him than and see if he is interested in any of the other ones  thanks  Cal.
 

Online SeaGtGruff

Re: Styles for 443 but no sound
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2016, 01:43:01 PM »
Okay, I'll start with the styles in the "Country-Bluegrass" folder, tackling the "Country" subfolder first.

One other thing I forgot to mention is that the collection Dick shared contains 3,773 styles, and I'm pretty sure there's a limit to how many styles (and likewise how many songs) the keyboard can access from a USB thumb drive, although I'm not certain what that number might be. Consequently it will probably be best to place no more than a few hundred style files on any given USB thumb drive.

An alternative is to make sure all of the style files are stored in folders on the thumb drive, since the keyboard will look only in the root directory for styles, such that you can copy whichever styles you're interested in at any given time from their subfolders to the root directory.
Michael Rideout
YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443
 

Online SeaGtGruff

Re: Styles for 443 but no sound
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2016, 01:55:27 PM »
Those are good points, Ted, although if he's able to play a few of the styles then presumably he's loading them correctly.

The only other non-file-related issues I could think of are (1) that only the rhythm will play if you haven't pressed the start button yet, and (2) you need to make sure that the style's tracks aren't toggled off-- and as far as the tracks are concerned, all of the style's tracks are toggled on automatically whenever you select a new style; or rather, if the XG SysEx messages in the style say that a given track should be turned on then it will be turned on. Many styles don't actually use all eight style tracks, even though the XG messages usually turn on all eight style tracks by default, so only the tracks that are actually being used by the style will have their indicator lit up on the LCD screen.
Michael Rideout
YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443
 

Offline broker22

Re: Styles for 443 but no sound
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2016, 05:00:27 AM »
Yes all the styles show up in the memory slots most of them don't have any sound and some of them do so don't know what the problem is maybe its just my brother I will see if I can find out what's wrong when I get over to his house thanks for all your help  Cal.
 

Online SeaGtGruff

Re: Styles for 443 but no sound
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2016, 04:02:21 PM »
Later tonight I'm going to load all of the country styles 5 at a time and see which ones will play as is and which ones won't, then I'll try converting the ones that won't play.
Michael Rideout
YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Styles for 443 but no sound
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2016, 08:19:04 PM »
In the past... the XG MU sound modules would be silent on any channel which received a Bank Select and Program Change message (Voice message) that was not supported by that instrument.  The reason for this was that Yamaha produced many Plug-in cards for these sound modules and for the S series and Motif Performance keyboards.

This scheme was designed to allow seamless integration of instruments between the host instrument and the Expansion Plug-in cards.  In other words you could assign some channels to play the host instrument and some channels to play Plug-in board instruments without having to do any programming or anything special.. they all worked together without effort.

This implementation was true all the way up to the S910 which did not support Expansion Packs.  When I tried to assign external instrument Voices to style Parts it didn't work.  I tried to use the on-board sequencer as a Data Recorder... it didn't work because the S910 OS filtered out any and all extraneous system exclusive MIDI message not specifically supported by the instrument... why?... to insure flawless performance of the keyboard when you played a style file or song file.

I did find though is that the Multi Pad sequencer was more forgiving and does support Bank Select and Program Change messages not native to the keyboard.

All this changed with the introduction of the Expansion capabilities of the PSR arrangers, which now will recognize, GM, GM2, GS, XG and any or all Bank Select messages for current or future Expansion Pack Voices.

This may or may not be what is going on here with the OP.  I haven't looked at XG Lite Voice messages and cannot say whether the E series keyboards implement the filtering process as described above.  Probably the only way to test it is to edit a style or song file that plays perfectly... using an external editor and insert Voice messages not supported by the keyboard and see what happens... if there is silence this could be the explanation.

Joe H
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 08:31:05 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Online SeaGtGruff

Re: Styles for 443 but no sound
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2016, 02:56:50 AM »
According to the XG Specifications v 2.00 (Yamaha Corporation, April 2001), the manner in which "unmapped" voices and kits are handled depends on the Bank MSB. I'm not sure whether "unmapped" means any voices and kits which aren't available on a particular model, or just those which aren't explicitly defined for a given Bank MSB, but I'm inclined to think that it does mean "unavailable," since many Bank MSB values are "model-specific" and this suggests (to me, anyway) that an "unmapped" voice is one which isn't available on any given model.

Anyway, for most Bank MSB values the unmapped voices or kits are mapped to a "silent voice" or "silent kit," although for a few Bank MSB values the unmapped voices will be mapped to the XG "capital tones" (MSB = 0, LSB = 0) or "standard kits" (MSB = 126 or 127, LSB = 0). The following list is extracted from "Attached Chart 11," which is on the last 2 pages of the XG Specifications v 2.00 document. Question marks indicate that the chart didn't say how unmapped voices would be handled:

Bank MSB = 00       | LSB/PGM# with no voice mapping: Maps to same voice as LSB=0/PGM#.
Bank MSB = 08       | ?
Bank MSB = 10       | ?
Bank MSB = 20 to 2F | ?
Bank MSB = 30       | Unmapped LSB/PGM#s are mapped to "silent voice."
Bank MSB = 3E       | Unmapped LSB/PGM#s are mapped to "silent voice."
Bank MSB = 3F       | Unmapped LSB/PGM#s are mapped to "silent voice."
   "   "   "        | Models that do not support part mode may map to normal voice and kit voice.
Bank MSB = 40       | LSB/PGM# with no voice mapping: Maps to same voice as LSB=0/PGM#.
Bank MSB = 41 to 44 | Unmapped MSB/LSB/PGM#s are mapped to "silent voice."
Bank MSB = 45       | Unmapped MSB/LSB/PGM#s are mapped to "silent voice."
Bank MSB = 46 to 4F | Unmapped MSB/LSB/PGM#s are mapped to "silent voice."
Bank MSB = 50 to 5F | Unmapped MSB/LSB/PGM#s are mapped to "silent voice."
Bank MSB = 60 to 6F | Unmapped MSB/LSB/PGM#s are mapped to MSB=0, same LSB/PGM#.
Bank MSB = 78       | ?
Bank MSB = 79       | Unmapped LSB/PGM#s are mapped to voice for LSB=0, same PGM#.
Bank MSB = 7E       | Unmapped LSB/PGM#s are mapped to "silent kit."
Bank MSB = 7F       | LSBs above 0 are undefined; any such vlaue [sic] shall be treated as a 0. If no voice
   "   "   "        | is mapped at the location given by Bank LSB (=0) +PGM#, the Bank LSB (=0) +PGM# value
   "   "   "        | shall be ignored and the previously used LSB (=0)+PGM# voice shall be selected.

Michael Rideout
YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443
 

Online SeaGtGruff

Re: Styles for 443 but no sound
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2016, 10:53:25 AM »
I've tried a number of the styles in the "Country" folder and haven't had any problems getting them to play on my PSR-E443. HOWEVER, that is not to say that there were no problems with them. One thing I did notice was that the voices used in some of the styles were very quiet, but that should be able to be fixed by adjusting the channel volumes in the files.

Aside from that, none of the styles Dick shared were SFF2 files, so I would expect that the only issues with them should stem from (1) file sizes, (2) filenames, (3) voices and drum kits, or (4) unsupported messages or features.

Only a few of the files are too large, and I suspect they can be reduced to acceptable sizes by one means or another, although I haven't tried doing so yet.

As for the filenames, I renamed many of the files so their first 8 characters would be unique, even before I tried to play any of them. Some of the ones I renamed still didn't show up (indicating a problem elsewhere), but the ones I didn't rename would not show up if additional files had the same first 8 characters-- the only exception was where only two files had the same first 8 characters in their names, and only one of them would show up.

As for the files that I did rename yet they still didn't show up, I've started going through them to see what's different about them in comparison to the files that do show up. I don't have enough information yet to offer any theories.

One final comment is that when playing a style, be sure you don't get tripped up by the START/STOP button-- i.e., if you load a style and press ACMP ON, then press the START/STOP button, you will hear only the rhythm (although the other parts of the style should play once you press a key in the Accompaniment area of the keyboard).
Michael Rideout
YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443
 

Offline broker22

Re: Styles for 443 but no sound
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2016, 01:30:25 PM »
Thanks for all your help Michael I will past the information on to my brother   Cal.
 

Offline Dick Rector

Re: Styles for 443 but no sound
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2016, 05:52:06 PM »
"Aside from that, none of the styles Dick shared were SFF2 files".


Michael, SFF2 didn't exist at the time of course. I went, at random, trough many of the other old styles on my S950 AND the older PSR2000 I still have. Did NOT have any problem so far. Not that this is any help but I wonder why. The technical part is beyond me but if the styles were converted to SSF2 format would that solve the problem? I believe our friend and Guru Jorgen at Jososoft has a converter program.
PSR-2000 and PSR-S950
 

Online SeaGtGruff

Re: Styles for 443 but no sound
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2016, 08:33:06 PM »
Dick, I'm sorry if I confused the issue by mentioning SFF2. The PSR-E443 and other PSR-E models canNOT use SFF2 style files, so any SFF2 files would need to be converted to SFF1. I was just trying to say that none of the files you shared with us needed to be converted, as all of them are already in the SFF1 format. :)
Michael Rideout
YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443
 

Offline Dick Rector

Re: Styles for 443 but no sound
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2016, 09:07:51 PM »
Dick, I'm sorry if I confused the issue by mentioning SFF2. The PSR-E443 and other PSR-E models canNOT use SFF2 style files, so any SFF2 files would need to be converted to SFF1. I was just trying to say that none of the files you shared with us needed to be converted, as all of them are already in the SFF1 format. :)

Ohhhh ok Michael? Didn't know that. Well I hope there is a solution for the problem.
PSR-2000 and PSR-S950
 

Online SeaGtGruff

Re: Styles for 443 but no sound
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2016, 10:24:43 PM »
No worries, Dick!

Ted, I wish I knew why several of the files aren't showing up. I don't know yet that it has anything to do with the names, although it did seem odd to me that out of several dozen files having apparently duplicate names, not a one of them could be seen, with the exception of one which had only one apparent duplicate. I would have thought that at least a few of the others would have been parseable by the PSR-E443. If you want to check some of them yourself on your PSR-E433 (I put mine away to set up my PSR-E443 in its place), none of the following files are being listed:

CntryShuffle  01.sty
CntryShuffle  02.sty
CntryShuffle  03.sty
CntryShuffle  04.sty
CntryShuffle  05.sty
CntryShuffle  06.sty
CntryShuffle  07.sty
CntryShuffle  08.sty
CntryShuffle  09.sty
CntryShuffle  10.sty

CntrySwing  01.sty
CntrySwing  03.sty
CntrySwing  04.sty
CntrySwing  05.sty
CntrySwing  06.sty
CntrySwing  07.sty
CntrySwing  08.sty
CntrySwing  09.sty

CntryWaltz 01.sty
CntryWaltz 02.sty
CntryWaltz 03.sty
CntryWaltz 04.sty
CntryWaltz 05.sty
CntryWaltz 06.sty
CntryWaltz 08.sty
CntryWaltz 09.sty
CntryWaltz 10.sty
CntryWaltz 11.sty
CntryWaltz 12.sty
CntryWaltz 13.sty
CntryWaltz 14.sty

These are all from the "Country" folder, which itself is inside the "Country-Bluegrass" folder, although I copied them to the root directory of my USB thumb drive.

I should add that some of the other files that I did rename aren't showing up, either-- e.g., none of the following are showing up, even though I renamed them to give them each unique names:

CtryRk01(CntryRock 01).sty
CtryRk02(CntryRock 02).sty
CtryRk03(CntryRock 03).sty
CtryRk04(CntryRock 04).sty
CtryRk05(CntryRock 05).sty
CtryRk06(CntryRock 06).sty
CtryRk07(CntryRock 07).sty
CtryRk08(CntryRock 08).sty
CtryRk09(CntryRock 09).sty
CtryRk10(CntryRock 10).sty
CtryRk11(CntryRock 11).sty
CtryRk12(CntryRock 12).sty
CtryRk13(CntryRock 13).sty
CtryRk17(CntryRock 17).sty
CtryRk19(CntryRock 19).sty
CtryRk20(CntryRock 20).sty
CtryRk21(CntryRock 21).sty
CtryRk22(CntryRock 22).sty
CtryRk23(CntryRock 23).sty
CtryRk24(CntryRock 24).sty
CtryRk25(CntryRock 25).sty
CtryRk26(CntryRock 26).sty
CtryRk27(CntryRock 27).sty
CtryRk28(CntryRock 28).sty
CtryRk29(CntryRock 29).sty
CtryRk30(CntryRock 30).sty

The portion in parentheses is the original name. All of the other files that I renamed have their old names in parentheses, too, yet many of them are showing up, so the parentheses are okay.

Extra periods are also okay-- e.g., I haven't renamed the following files yet, but they're showing up:

Cntry 76.HeartBeat.sty
Cntry 77.Kojak.sty
Cntry 82.Piano.sty
Cntry 84.Saloon.sty
Cntry 85.Satin.sty
Cntry 88.Skiff.sty
Cntry 93.StormOfLuv.sty

I have to go out of town tomorrow for a few days, so I won't get to investigate any further until about the middle of this week. What I've done so far is to create a MixMaster voice patch file for the PSR-E443, and I've replaced the PSR-450.DAT file with it. That way I can open a style file in MixMaster and instantly see if it has any voices or drum kits that aren't included on the PSR-E443. I can also switch to the ListView screen and sort it by event type, which makes it easy to see if the style is trying to use any features that aren't included on the PSR-E443. But the frustrating thing is that some files use "invalid" voices or features yet they'll load and play, while others use only valid voices and features yet they aren't listed. So there's nothing obvious that I can see to explain why some files are parseable and others are unparseable. To me, this suggests it might be something that's not immediately obvious, such as trying to use too many source channels for the style's parts.
Michael Rideout
YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443
 

Offline Mwanzia

Re: Styles for 443 but no sound
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2017, 06:52:44 AM »
I there a way to convert the styles fro;m other pianos especially PSR S& E series to be able to play them on PSR  E 443?
 

Online SeaGtGruff

Re: Styles for 443 but no sound
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2017, 09:59:49 AM »
Most SFF1 styles should play without needing to convert them first, although the voices might not be the best that the keyboard has to offer. There are utility programs that allow you to convert the ones that need to be converted, including revoicing the style parts as needed, and even rearranging the style sections as desired. You can find many useful utilities for working with styles at http://www.jososoft.dk/.
Michael Rideout
YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443