Author Topic: SATA to PATA adapter  (Read 1893 times)

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Offline tyros2009

SATA to PATA adapter
« on: December 12, 2015, 02:39:19 PM »
I plan to replace the Tyros3 internal PATA HDD with  an SATA SSD drive.
I already have a 128GB SSD drive (2.5" and very thin) available for my Tyros3,  so I bought a SATA to PATA adapter on eBay (see link below)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221850003604?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Has anyone use this for Tyros ? Will it work ?

 

Offline tyros2009

Re: SATA to PATA adapter
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2015, 02:44:06 PM »
If this works, I expect the operations below are faster
1) loading/saving a recorded song AUD file should be faster
2) copying AUD / WAV files
3) export an AUD to WAV
The reason is simply there is no mechanical latency to access the files.
still praying for this to work while waiting for the adapter to be shipped to me.
 

Offline tyrosaurus

Re: SATA to PATA adapter
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2015, 07:33:33 PM »
The existing hard drive in a Tyros3 is a 2.5 inch (laptop) IDE device which plugs into a socket mounted on a circuit board in the T3 when you close the disk caddy.

This means that the socket in the T3 must be for a 2.5 inch IDE drive. Checking the service manual confirms it is a 44 pin 2.5 inch socket.

The adapter in the link in your post is for a 3.5 inch (desktop) IDE drive, which uses a 40 pin socket for the data plus a second 'Molex' socket to connect the power supply (the white socket in the photographs in the link).  There is no lead from the power supply inside the T3 to directly connect to the Molex socket.  Instead the power is supplied to the final four pins on the main 44 pin socket in the T3 via the HDSB circuit board that it is mounted on, but these are missing from the adaptor.

Even without the problem of connecting the power to the drive, I can't see how this adapter will fit into the T3's socket since although the first 40 pins on both a 2.5 inch and 3.5 inch IDE drive carry the same signals, I think that the spacing is slightly different and the two sockets are keyed differently so that only the correct drive will fit. 

The required 5V power supply is available on the T3's HDSB circuit board on which the hard drive socket is mounted, so if you are competent with a soldering iron and know what you are doing you should probably be able to 'jury rig' the power connection, but it will be difficult to do this without opening the case!

At least your new SATA drive should fit the SATA socket on the adaptor, but without some modification to get power to the drive, I can't see how it can work!

You would be much better off writing off this 3.5 inch adapter, and getting a 2.5 inch IDE to SATA adapter instead, such as the one in this link (note that I can't endorse this one!) which at least should have the correct pinouts for the data and the power supply!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SATA-Female-22Pin-Hard-Disk-Drive-to-2-5-44Pin-IDE-Male-Adapter-Connector-/291579431275?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368

However even with these there seems to be a displacement between the connector for the drive and the one to the T3 socket so you may not be able to fix the drive into the disk caddy since doing so may mean that the pins on the adapter that go into the T3 socket are too high or too low!

Finally even if you get the SSD working in your T3, I wouldn't expect to see much, if any noticeable difference in performance since it will still be working into an IDE interface on the T3 which will probably be the limiting factor rather than any mechanical latency in the drive.  It would be interesting to know the result.

Please let us know how you get on.


Regards

Ian
 

Offline tyros2009

Re: SATA to PATA adapter
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2015, 12:55:06 PM »
Thanks Ian for the detailed explanations of the connectors.
I have never opened the Tyros3 so do not know for sure the size of the HDD in there.
My career is designing HDD for Western Digital (since 1988, I just retired) and know about these connector differences.

The IDE interface is not as fast as SATA but that is not why the Tyros3 is very slow when load WAV or copying WAV.

It's the small buffer memory in the Tyros3 (used to contain data to pass from one place to other). This requires multiple (read from one place,  write to another place) operation. Each of of these involves seeks, rotational time of the hard disk drive. But not the SSD which has no mechanical part.

A good convincing factor is copying the same WAV file on the (old days) computer with IDE drives is really FAST compare to the same operation on the Tyros3.

And these old PATA drives do not have highly advance data caching algorithm to avoid unnecessary mechanical delays. Newer SATA drives do contain these algorithm as they have become well known by the year 2000.
I still have a few PATA drives as spare for my Tyros3, but I still like to puy SSD in it.
I still have not received the adapter yet, still waiting, less than 3$ so even if it does not work for Tyros3, it's not a big loss.

 

Offline tyrosaurus

Re: SATA to PATA adapter
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2015, 02:07:51 PM »
It sounds as if you will be able to get this working one way or another, but I am sure that the easiest way will be to get a 2.5 inch adapter, because the HDD in the T3 is a 2.5 inch drive and the socket on the HDSB board is for a 2.5 inch drive.

Just for interest I have had an SSD in my Tyros4 for the last few months, so far without any problems, but also without any noticeable performance increase.  However things are a bit different to your T3. On the T4 the internal hard disk (which is SATA) is connected to the system by a USB 2.0 interface/adapter card which is 'bolted' to the disk.  This connects to the main circuit board via a USB cable.  The interface card failed on my T4 over a year ago although the drive was still working.  I couldn't buy just a new interface from Yamaha, they would only supply the drive with the card fitted at an extortionate price!

So I bought an external USB/SATA enclosure for less than 10 GBP and used the interface from that with the original SATA drive.

Since then I bought a basic SanDisk SSD at a good price on a deal at Amazon.  I didn't get it specifically for the T4, but I thought that I would try it in the keyboard anyway.  It works fine so I have left it in the keyboard, although it turns out that the SanDisk 'support'  ::) software won't 'trim' this drive manually, so it is not currently being trimmed because obviously the keyboard OS knows nothing about SSDs, and knowing Yamaha I don't expect their OS to do so for many years to come!   :'( 

For the way that I use the hard disk this is not likely to give problems in the short to medium term, because the number of writes and deletes is nothing like that for disks running an OS such as Windoze!  I already back the drive up to computer by removing from the keyboard and connecting it to a USB port on the PC. So I may decide that perhaps once a year after making such a backup of the files, I will format the drive then copy the files back to it, which I assume will make all the cells and blocks available again.  Do you know if formatting an SSD actually 'clears' all the cells and makes all of them available for use again?

I have also tried a USB 3.0 version of the disk enclosure interface and although as expected this works no faster than the USB 2 version  on the T4, because I carry out backups of the hard drive as described above, the USB 3 version makes this much faster since I have USB 3 ports on my computer.  Of course the transfer speed is still nothing like what an SSD on SATA is capable of, or for that matter what USB 3 is capable of, because most of the files are very small but there are many of them so the transfer rate soon drops when you start to copy the whole drive!

Maybe you will see a more noticeable improvement in performance on your T3, since you are swapping an IDE drive for a SATA SSD, but I would be surprised if you are 'blown away' by the results.  As you have already said the Yamaha OS is not the most able or nimble!

Please let us know how you eventually get on.


Regards

Ian
 

Offline tyros2009

Re: SATA to PATA adapter
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2017, 05:08:09 PM »
I finally get back to playing my Tyros3 again frequently. Based on the feedback, it seems to be a struggle to get a SSD with SATA interface in to Tyros3.
I do not really want to open up the Tyros3 yet.
It seems to me that the HDD is mainly to contain the audio recording in some sort of WAV format.
It can also contain anything that the user want to save in it (such as styles, MIDI files, etc....) but these can be saved in an USB thumb drive (that I always left it plugged in).
So the bottom line is: even if the HDD broke, all functions of the TYROS3 still work EXCEPT the audio recording. Is this true ? Have anyone experienced this?
To be safe, I always save all my settings in the USB thumb drive in case the HDD broke during transportation (to and from gigs).