Bose System - Other Users?

[fmeynell]

Have taken the plunge and after a long demo where I was allowed to play alone with the system for as long as I wanted, I decided to buy the L1 Model 2 with ToneMatch system. I was absolutely pole-axed by the power, crispness and accuracy of its response. It put my existing rig - a 300wat Fortifier, which is an extremely good and powerful system, in the shade. And its portability is twice as easy, compared. The main thing was - playing some Midis I had recorded - I walked round this biggish 200-seater Hall listening to it from all angles and distances, and it was the same volume and tone far away as close to.

Reading through the ToneMatch instructions, and also the posts on the Bose Users Forum, it's obviously crucial to get the settings right for the Ty3

I was told that it'd be better to set the Ty3's EQ to Flat and set the EQ right on the Bose. So I'd be very grateful for any pointers to successful settings that others have found work well with the Ty3 (or Ty2 or Ty1)

Grateful for any help

Freddie

[DonM]

Well, I did it the other way.  I set the Bose flat and e.q. the keyboard.  Works for me.  Then you can adjust the Bose e.q. slightly depending on the room or venue where you're playing.
Not saying this is better, but it works for me.  I believe the Tyros sounds better when using both L and R outputs into the stereo inputs on the module, as opposed to using the mono output.
DonM

[fmeynell]

Thanks Don. Yes - I've got the L/R and R into 4/5 and was going to use 1 for Mic.
OK - I can try with the Bose Flat and alter the EQ on the Ty3.

Interesting. Thanx

Freddie
 

[travlin-easy]

Freddie,

Congratulations on buying the Bose L1--you'll love everything about it. In my case I set the EQs on both the L1 and the keyboard, which seems to work best for me. I set up several EQ settings for the various venues, then saved them in my user area of the keyboard.

Similar to Don, I use both outputs and plug them into separate inputs of the L1. This provides a very rich, full sound, and the audiences love it as much as I do.

Good Luck,

Gary 

[fmeynell]

Thanks Gary. I think it might have been you who first put me on to Bose. 
Anyway, I'm certainly thrilled with it.

The settings are all very subjective, really, aren't they?. I certainly see the sense of saving EQ's for regular venues on the KB.

I've just been trying with the EQ's flat on the KB but Compressor at +4, and the Bose just set to Master Keys. WOW! What a sound.

Tell you what, though, Gary - I really miss the lightness of the 3K. The Ty3's a wonderful KB but a great big lump to hump upstairs. I had a lot of fun with the 3K, as I know, have you.

Freddie   

[BobandSylvia]

We got the Bose L1 SII with the Tonematch in Thursday. I have been playing with it a little at the house. It sounds great. We are on vacation from the music this week and next but have a couple of concerts next week that got scheduled. We will be able to try it out then.

Does anyone have any pointers or suggestions?

[EddieShoe]

Three areas of adjustments will optimize the sound from your L1.
1. EQ
2. Gain Staging - setting up the optimum volume controls in the chain of sound
3. Presets.


EQ has already been covered here.

As for Gain Staging, here is a short video explaining how it works if you are running a mic through the system:  http://toonz.ca/bose/wiki/index.php?title=L1%E2%84%A2_Unofficial_Users%27_Guide
Look for the section entitled "8 minute Quick Start". Very helpful info there.

As for the presets, 00 is the flat setting that Don is talkiing about. You can try that and adjust the EQ in your keyboard or mixer (if you use one)... Or...try different presets to see how they sound to you. For PSR and Tyros keyboards the settings that seem to be most used (other than the flatt 00) are 5, 12, 55 or 57. Experiment, listen and use the settings that please you.

If you perform outside of your home, one word of caution: The above adjustments done at home may not sound the same on the job when volume levels are usually much higher to accommodate the size of the room or outdoor venue. Just listen and adjust accordingly.

After trying a few different settings and listening to the feedback from your audiences,
you will get the "feel" of what works best for you. 

Eddie

[travlin-easy]

I agree wholeheartedly with Eddie's post.

Gary 

[fmeynell]

Thank you for that Eddie. I've just been studying that  (and related) pages. Wonderfully useful stuff.

Thanks again

Freddie

[fmeynell]

Making good progress largely due to the pointers you gave me, Eddie. But I'm confused on one thing - you mentioned

For PSR and Tyros keyboards the settings that seem to be most used (other than the flatt 00) are 5, 12, 55 or 57. Experiment, listen and use the settings that please you.
Eddie

I can't seem to find these Preset settings on my ToneMatch or on the Model 2. Are these perhaps the settings for the L1? I've looked in the Presets and Scenes but seem to find anything resembling these settings. Or am I looking in the wrong place?

At the moment I'm using Singer/Songwriter with "General Keys".

Sorry to be a bore but could you just explain in a bit more detail.  The Gain Staging was fine and the video really helpful.

Freddie
   

[EddieShoe]

Freddie...
My mistake. I should have mentioned all my references were to the the original L1 (model 1). I don't know anything about the Tone Match. Sorry.
Eddie

[ST]

Hi,

I am ST from the Bose Musicians Message Boards (and keeper of the Bose L1® Encyclopedia, FAQ and Wiki).

Making good progress largely due to the pointers you gave me, Eddie. But I'm confused on one thing - you mentionedI can't seem to find these Preset settings on my ToneMatch or on the Model 2. Are these perhaps the settings for the L1? I've looked in the Presets and Scenes but seem to find anything resembling these settings. Or am I looking in the wrong place?

At the moment I'm using Singer/Songwriter with "General Keys".

Sorry to be a bore but could you just explain in a bit more detail.  The Gain Staging was fine and the video really helpful.

Freddie
   

Here is a cross reference chart from Presets version 3.0 (and 2.0) to the new T1 ToneMatch® Audio Engine Presets.
Presets Version 3.0 with T1 ToneMatch Audio Engine Equivalents

so if I am understanding correctly the numbers you provided were Presets version 2.0 or 3.0 for the Model I (or Classic) Power Stand.  I have provided specific cross matches to the nearest match for the Presets in the T1 ToneMatch® Audio Engine Equivalents


 5 is  Category Vocal Mics| Preset:  Audix OM-5
12 is  Category Vocal Mics| Preset: Neumann KMS105
55 is  Category Special| Preset: Accordion w/Limex MP
57 is  Category DJ/Playback| Preset: Low volume music

Does that help?

[fmeynell]

Thanks so much ST. If you are the keeper of the Bose L1® Encyclopedia, FAQ and Wiki, you are very much to be congratulated. It is the most wonderful example of a 'Knowledge Base' type support I've ever seen and I'm hugely impressed by it.

However at first it is all a lot to take in and I'm only just embarking on the voyage of discovery. I don't think the suggestions of those Presets that Eddie mentioned sound very likely for a Yamaha keyboard do they (I enjoyed seeing one called 'Jumbo Fingered' under Taylor guitars - just how I often feel myself. In fact I'd have this as a User Name if I hadn't got one!)?

All I'm trying to do now is find the best Scene or most likely Preset suitable for my Ty3 and had been asking for other keyboard users' (but on this part of this forum, specifically Tyros 3 owners) views on what they have found helpful.

I think I'll carry on exploring your incredible website - again, many congratulations on it - and the Bose Users Forum as well, learning as much as I can as quick as I can

Thanks again, ST

Freddie

 

[ST]

Hi Freddie,

Thank you for your kind thoughts and comments about the  Bose L1® Encyclopedia, FAQ and Wiki. Ultimately the mission is to help people to get back to "playing music" part of the experience.

"To share our collective and growing knowledge about the L1® technology so that we all spend less time thinking about the technology, and more time playing Music. "  -- Mission Statement

The Preset Names are probably the most meaningful to the people who play the instruments. I share your amusement though. In this case "Jumbo Fingered" this was probably suggested by Brian Swerdfeger or another member of the Taylor Guitar team who worked with Cliff-at-Bose to create the Taylor Presets. You can watch a video about that here:  Brian Swerdfeger Interview.

Interestingly, although the Presets were created for specific instruments or applications, lots of L1® owners have found other uses for those Presets. It is not outlandish to me that a couple of those microphone presets would work for Keyboards. Preset 55 is also a favourite of Jazz Guitarists.  Preset 57 (also known as "Category DJ/Playback| Preset: Low volume music") should sound really nice for keyboards at low to moderate volumes. This one compensates for the very human perception of sound at lower volumes by accentuating the lows and highs a bit. Cliff-at-Bose (inventor of the L1®) describes it this way.

"#57 is for prerecorded music at low level, for DJ’s and for break music at the gig. Sort of like the Fletcher-Munson (Tony Sarno calls it the “Herman Munster”) curve; bass and treble boost, just the right amount if you’re playing a 85 dB or so. " --  Source: Presets 2.0 An Informal Discussion

Can you point me to the source of your list of Presets (00, 05, 12, 55, 57)? This looks like good information to add to our L1® wiki.

Thanks

ST

[fmeynell]

Can you point me to the source of your list of Presets (00, 05, 12, 55, 57)? This looks like good information to add to our L1® wiki.
ST

Thanks, ST. I'll go and explore those. With regard to the above, you'll obviously have to ask Eddie, but it may well have been in one of these keyboard Forums.

Freddie

[EddieShoe]

ST
I am the culprit who mentioned 00, 05, 12, 55 & 57 as settings often used by Yamaha keyboard players. When I first got my L1 I experimented with all the presets and kind of settled in on 05 and 12. But as time went on I felt an absence of presence in the lower registers and gravitated to 55 and 57.

Discussions with a few other players from this and other forums revealed we were all using one or more of the above settings. It was nothing scientific. Just some players who experimented and landed on the same conclusions.

Among those conclusions was how the sound could change depending upon the room you are playing and the stage you are playing on. One room I play is so alive I use 00 on the L1 and take all effects off the keyboard. A large stage with a roomy hollow spot underneath will amplify the bass end of the sound spectrum making setting #s 55 and 57 way too "boomy".
Eddie

[MrLucky]

Freddie-

I agree with Eddie's comments. I use two cables (L/R and R) to inputs 1 & 2 on setting #55 for my L1/Model1 and Tyros1 combo. My EQs are Standard/Basic/Flat. CMP is 0/10/6/8. Keyboard volume is at 1:00 o'clock. The L1 power base gains are at #9, the remote is straight up with master volume at 9:00 o'clock.

Except for CMP which is reported to be different than the T1 & 2, most of these can be utilized by T3 users. I'm certain that as more members become T3 users they will share with you. In the meantime, don't hesitate to experiment. Who knows, you may be the one to come up with the 2009 model year settings!

Have fun, enjoy your new toys. Lucky

[travlin-easy]

ST,

I was likely the first forum member here that purchased the L1. A short time later I updated the presets via a download file.

Similar to Eddies experience, I've found that different presets seem to work best in certain environments. The same is true for the keyboard's EQ settings and their interaction with the L1. For the most part, I use 05, 55 and 57, but there are times when 00 is better. It all depends upon the venue.

Gary 

[ST]

Hi Eddie, Gary

Thanks for the great information.

Interestingly, we have a new discussion about this today on the Bose Musicians Community Message Boards.

I've linked back here, but please join us if you have a mind to jump in.

Preset Recommendations - Yamaha Tyros 3

Edit: - Small world - I just realized that fmeynell is probably the same Fruityfj (Freddie) that posted in the link above.

[fmeynell]

Question for Gary

Given that I'm now beginning to understand why it's better to uplift the Master control on the Bose rather than on thje KB, I'm beginning to think that I don't need a Volume pedal anymore. With the Ty3 and it's sliders, I can use the assigneable slider for say Style Volume, the only other pupose I'd need an FC7 (or similar) for.

I can throw it away, can't I? (I won't actually do that) Otherwise I can see me constantly trying to control the volume by habit from the KB and not the Bose.

How do you contol volume a) overall and b) style, with the Bose?

Freddie

[travlin-easy]

Freddie,

Once I have balanced the keyboard to the L1, the keyboard volume remains at the 1 O'clock position all the time. The master volume on my L1, which is the older model, is situated on the remote. Usually, it is set at about the 9 O'clock position. The high, mid and low EQs of the remote are usually set at about the 1 O'clock position. Sometime, though, when I think the bass is a bit too much, I set the low EQ on the remote to the 12 O'clock position or slightly lower.

If I need more volume because of increased crowd noise I nudge the Bose remote control master volume up a tad, but not much. Once in a while I may push the keyboard's style slider above the 100 percent mark, but rarely above 110 percent. This is sometime the case when using some third party style files where the right hand voices are a bit on the hot side and somewhat overpower the accompaniment.

Unlike a conventional system, where you can push up the keyboard's overall volume and this is transmitted to the PA, the L1 would be out of balance, overdriven and this would end up with distortion. When a conventional system is overdriven it will also distort, but some folks still believe this is normal. This is especially true with bands that cannot read an audience and feel if they play louder it makes the audience want to dance. In reality, if they played better and played what the audiences wanted to hear, the audience response is much more positive.

Hope this helps,

Gary 

[fmeynell]

Thanks Gary.

Yes, this is going to take some getting used to. Everything I've been doing for the last four or five years is out of the window.

Your settings are probably what I was working towards, I suspect.

And I've seen what you & Eddie meant in earlier answers by the importance of the Gain Staging.

Unlike a conventional system, where you can push up the keyboard's overall volume and this is transmitted to the PA, the L1 would be out of balance, overdriven and this would end up with distortion. When a conventional system is overdriven it will also distort, but some folks still believe this is normal. This is especially true with bands that cannot read an audience and feel if they play louder it makes the audience want to dance. In reality, if they played better and played what the audiences wanted to hear, the audience response is much more positive.

   

I found this out whilst playing around with the levels, before I knew how (and the importance of) the Gain Staging. At first I thought I must've exceeded the polyphonic limit, then realised it was a pretty simple style and not particularly elaborate harmony. I now know the importance of this aspect.

And I agree with what you say about the bands that think playing loudly compensates for lack of skill. As an Event Manager, they don't get work from me. There are some really talented bands out there who are great to work with. It's that sort that get work from me.

Freddie 

[BobandSylvia]

Well we did our first gig last night for a thanksgiving dinner at the masonic lodge. The Bose did great. Everyone in the back of the room and the front said they heard perfectly. We placed the system directly behind us. With our old system (Fender passoort) I would place behind and to the sides.

Is it better to be directly behind or out to the side?

[BobandSylvia]

I have experimented with the L/R single cable and using both jacks and two cables and I can't hear any difference. Is it my old ears that can't detect a difference ( except in the volume)?

What differences do others notice?

[travlin-easy]

Bob,

It has been my experience that the best location for the L1 has been about a foot behind and four feet to the side of me. No feedback problems, and I can hear what the audience hears. I usually place the sub under the right side of the keyboard stand facing forward. However, there are some venues where facing the sub to the side provides better results.

As for the input connections, I found the sound to be much fuller when using both the 1 and 2 inputs V/S using a single input. Additionally, Yamaha's mono output appears to be a pseudo mono--not a true mono output, thus some of the sounds are diminished when using the mono out.

Hope this helps,

Gary 

[fmeynell]

I think that's right, Gary. I've only done one Gig and I'd had to set up in a bit of a hurry. I was doing sound checks - playing a Midi I'd recorded and walking round the hall - and I thought that's not quite as 'full' a sound as I'd been used to over the last few days at home. Sure enough, I'd connected up the KB wrong and it was effectively running on the L/R channel only. When I connected the other one, I did notice a difference. Not enormous but a bit more 'presence'.

  I imagine it must make a difference too as to which Preset you're using. For me, so far, the best is KB EQ Flat, Compressor +4; Bose either Keyboard/General Keys or - if quiet background music, Special/DJ/Music Low Volume; Compressor on Bose on Bypass, in both cases. But I'm still experimenting. And learning.

And I continue to be very pleased indeed with the new rig.

Freddie   

[BobandSylvia]

Thanks Gary I will try the placement suggestions tomorrow night.

I will also try the two cables into ch4/5 of the tone match and see if there is a difference.

Thanks

[BobandSylvia]

well Thursday night we did another thanksgiving celebration. I had laryngitis and did a couple of instrumentals and let my wife do all the vocals (she is the better singer anyway.) Did not get the chance to use the two cables from the 3K.

does anyone us a twin cable? Do you use 4/5 input?

[fmeynell]

Yes, Bob. I do - use R & L/R on 4/5 and Mic on input 1. Gives more of that 'presence'. I think.

Freddie

[BobandSylvia]

Thanks to every one for the advice. It works great! We have used it for several concerts so far and am very impressed. We have a concert tomorrow for about 200 people. This will be a good test of the power.

I have a passive mixer (using only potentiometers) I wonder if that would work?