Author Topic: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron  (Read 151317 times)

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Offline ugawoga

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #350 on: November 27, 2022, 01:03:19 AM »
Theoretically, an airplane can go the route we want on its own, but if there is no pilot to chart a course and be in control, nothing happens.. That's the only thing that's certain. ;) ;D


What about an Irish pilot???? ;D ;D
Genos, I7 computer 32 gig ram, Focusrite 6i6, Cubase controller, Focal Alpha Monitors, Yamaha DXR8 Speakers
Cubase 10, Sonarworks, Izotope.  Sampletank, Arturia and Korg software.  Now IK Mixbox
 

Offline Oxford1035

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #351 on: November 27, 2022, 03:35:18 AM »

What about an Irish pilot???? ;D ;D

I think you’ll find they fly Air Fungus John ;)
 

Offline ugawoga

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #352 on: November 27, 2022, 10:25:17 AM »
Hi Oxford

I bet we have confused our overseas friends ;D
Genos, I7 computer 32 gig ram, Focusrite 6i6, Cubase controller, Focal Alpha Monitors, Yamaha DXR8 Speakers
Cubase 10, Sonarworks, Izotope.  Sampletank, Arturia and Korg software.  Now IK Mixbox
 

tyrosman

  • Guest
Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #353 on: November 27, 2022, 01:48:48 PM »
Hi Oxford

I bet we have confused our overseas friends ;D
i think we might have John :) Genos throwe,s every thing out the window Yamaha is Better by Far
 

Offline usaraiya

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #354 on: December 01, 2022, 01:02:58 PM »
Here are some more official details about the EVENT:

https://www.ajamsonic.com/ketronevent.htm

 :)

Offline Henni

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #355 on: December 01, 2022, 07:09:42 PM »
KETRON EVENT VS YAMAHA GENOS V.2


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrWokTi2gCM
« Last Edit: December 01, 2022, 07:10:43 PM by Henni »
...Fly Forever!
 

Offline BogdanH

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #356 on: December 01, 2022, 08:29:06 PM »
KETRON EVENT VS YAMAHA GENOS V.2
-such comparisons are totally useless (and deceiving at that):
1st Why?
We can get all that data from specifications.
2nd Why?
Number of styles (for example) means nothing. What I'm interested on is, the quality of the styles, how many actually different there are, and how flexible (for editing) they are.

I realized, that many romanian youtubers provide (comparison) videos without commenting -is just a waste of time watching.

Just my opinion,
Bogdan
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 

Offline maartenb

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #357 on: December 02, 2022, 10:48:35 AM »
+1

Totally useless YouTube video, Henni. Specs only, no playing. Waste of time.

Next time you place a link to a video, please include a small summary of the video.


Maarten
« Last Edit: December 02, 2022, 10:51:00 AM by maartenb »
 

Offline maartenb

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #358 on: December 02, 2022, 10:52:28 AM »
I bet we have confused our overseas friends ;D

And your continental friends as well.  ;D


Maarten
 

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #359 on: December 02, 2022, 11:58:36 AM »
-such comparisons are totally useless (and deceiving at that):
1st Why?
We can get all that data from specifications.
2nd Why?
Number of styles (for example) means nothing. What I'm interested on is, the quality of the styles, how many actually different there are, and how flexible (for editing) they are.

I realized, that many romanian youtubers provide (comparison) videos without commenting -is just a waste of time watching.

Just my opinion,
Bogdan
You are right.
These comparisons cannot be objective because to be one would have to have experience with both instruments to draw a conclusion.
So, as you may know, I have here in my studio both the Genos and the Event (since the beginning of last August) after I worked for more than a year on it (the Event).
I also had the opportunity to compare the Pa5x with the Event and with the Genos since I had it in my studio for a month. But that is another discussion.
I'm taking this opportunity to voice an opinion now that the Event is almost out on the market.

Points in which Genos excels are, in my opinion, these:
1) Larger screen 9 inches compared to 7 inches of the Event.

2) 3GB RAM vs Event's 1GB RAM

3) Larger illuminated switches which require somewhat less pressure than the Event.

4) Super Articulations (of course only factory) 3 switches vs one of the Event but in the Event, it is also a User Articulation and not only a factory.

5) There are no serious limitations regarding samples, multisamples, velocity layers, etc.
-------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------
Points in which the Event excels (always in my opinion but also through the direct comparison since I have both models).

1) Incredible creativity with almost no midi programming knowledge required.
Through Style Modeling (more on this later) and combining Audio and Midi Loops we build a style exactly as we want and without the slightest need to edit.
We simply choose in each variation what we want it to contain, with the possibility in each different variation to have completely different options (in everything), even in the mix, fx, etc.
Unfortunately, in the area of creativity if I had to rate Genos then with an excellent 10, I would put a 3 and maybe even that was too much.

2) No kind of processing (Time Sliced, etc.) is required to import user audio data (Real Drum, Real Bass, Real Chord), since all that is needed is to copy them to a specific point on the SSD with a specific name and folder per audio files.
The same applies to midi files.
Just copy/paste (also here) in a specific folder and now they will be available in every style.

3) Onboard Sampler with full editor and creation of new sound or Drum kit.

4) Multichord.
An innovation by Ketron (where I have also taken part in the implementation of this patent) with the possibility of having up to 12 different midi files per musical scale (Maj, Min, M7, min7 etc.) and not just 1 midi file per different scale.

5) Hardware EFX Control.
Another innovation that we meet at the Event (where we meet here for the first time in an Arranger Keyboard) are the external control switches of the EFX. So, in Real Time we can, in addition to activating an EFX or to change the live EFX algorithm, also have control over e.g. the Delay time, the length of the Reverb, or the Brilliance of the sound we are playing at that moment. Without complicated procedures, or other tedious software procedures which are usually deterrent in a live performance we just choose EFX and have the control in Real Time.

Now to the question of which one sounds better?
There is no specific answer here.
Both (Genos & Event) sound equally great!!
If you ask me which of the two, do I prefer?
Unfortunately, I don't have an answer here either because there is something different from that I love.
Surely a combination of both instruments in a live would be something exciting!!
I look forward to trying them both together as soon as possible (in a live performance).
« Last Edit: December 02, 2022, 12:02:02 PM by Sokratis1974 »
 
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Offline Henni

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #360 on: December 02, 2022, 12:16:57 PM »
+1

Totally useless YouTube video, Henni. Specs only, no playing. Waste of time.

Next time you place a link to a video, please include a small summary of the video.


Maarten

Unfortunately not much is available on the Event for now. I am seriously searching the net for more info, demos etc. & really there is very little to be found. I am merely posting the bits & drabs that I DO find however.
...Fly Forever!
 

Jeff Hollande

  • Guest
Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #361 on: December 02, 2022, 01:34:20 PM »
Hey Sokratis  :

Thank you for your very interesting information. :)

BTW, is the English Event Manual already available on the internet ?

Plse advise.
Thanks and best regards, JH
« Last Edit: December 02, 2022, 01:44:56 PM by Jeff Hollande »
 

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #362 on: December 02, 2022, 01:44:23 PM »
Hey Sokratis  :

Thank you for your very interesting information. :)

BTW, is the English Event manual already available on the internet ?

Plse advise.
Thanks and best regards, JH
Unfortunately not yet.
But I think it's a matter of days until the company upload it on the site them.
Οnly one poster has been uploaded
https://www.ketron.it/images/ketron/Event/KETRON%20EVENT%20INGLESE.pdf
 

Offline rphillipchuk

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #363 on: December 02, 2022, 05:50:41 PM »

Incredible creativity with almost no midi programming knowledge required.

Through Style Modeling (more on this later) and combining Audio and Midi Loops we build a style exactly as we want and without the slightest need to edit.

We simply choose in each variation what we want it to contain, with the possibility in each different variation to have completely different options (in everything), even in the mix, fx, etc.


I think that this is extremely important because the term "Style Modeling" is so vague. But if I can just "copy & Paste" ( think simple ) to change the style a style , is exactly what I am looking for.

It all comes down to the number of options available.

As an extreme example, if I select a "Pop" style, can I change all the elements to a "Country" style just by copy & paste ? 

If so, is this done in real time ?  While the style is playing, am I able to hear the changes immediately ?

RonP
Yamaha DGX-670 connected to a Yamaha MW12 Mixer connected to a pair of Yamaha MSP10's + Yamaha SW10 Subwoofer using Songbook+.

MacBook Pro 32 Gigs Ram, 1 Terrabyte SSD

www.midisafe.com
www.yamahastylesonly.com
 

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #364 on: December 03, 2022, 05:23:52 AM »
I think that this is extremely important because the term "Style Modeling" is so vague. But if I can just "copy & Paste" ( think simple ) to change the style a style , is exactly what I am looking for.

It all comes down to the number of options available.

As an extreme example, if I select a "Pop" style, can I change all the elements to a "Country" style just by copy & paste ? 

If so, is this done in real time ?  While the style is playing, am I able to hear the changes immediately ?

RonP
No.
Copy & paste refers to the new user elements we add to the Modeling library palette, and these can be either Real Drum (audio), Real Bass (audio), Real Chord (audio) and any midi file we want if it is one channel and which contain our own rhythmic patterns from Piano, El. Pianos, Guitars, Pad, Strings, Synth Arpeggio’s, and anything else we want.
After that in each variation and in each channel to activate them, we simply open the preset or user Modeling library and, in each channel, we add or change elements to essentially assemble a new style.
Of course, there is a huge preset Modeling palette very well programmed that frankly a user will rarely need anything beyond them unless they live in countries like Greece, Turkey, Balkan, or Arab countries where they will have to create their own separate palette for some style.
However, beyond all this, one can add or configure anything they want with the Classic midi programming either onboard or through a computer.
As for your question if these can be done in Real Time while playing in some style the answer is a clear YES!!
But in order not to confuse you more I would like you to wait a bit and I have promised you a special video for this excellent element!
Thanks!

Offline Duffy

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #365 on: December 03, 2022, 08:32:04 AM »
Thanks for that Sokratis.
The event is sounding better and better to me and I appreciate any info you pass on. I realise that their is a limit to what you can tell us.
The COPY & Paste feature is one of the things which the Genos has been so badly needing and sounds similar to the Technics KN7000 version plus  a big modelling palette too.
A big selling point for Ketron

The main problem for Ketron now is going to be their lack of dealerships.
I have bought Solton / Ketron for years but their is no way to part exchange your instrument if their is no proper dealers and showrooms.
I have wanted to upgrade for some time but they will not do part exchange and I don't want the hassle of private selling to get rid of the things I have.
I just wish all these companies would take a bit more notice of what their customers tell them.

Offline EileenL

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #366 on: December 03, 2022, 11:39:02 AM »
On Genos we do have the style assembly function and is very easy and quick to use.
Taking parts from other styles and creating your own choices is fun. Then also you have the grove Function which gives a different feel to a style.

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #367 on: December 03, 2022, 12:17:07 PM »
On Genos we do have the style assembly function and is very easy and quick to use.
Taking parts from other styles and creating your own choices is fun. Then also you have the grove Function which gives a different feel to a style.
Yes you are right.
However the Style Modeling of Ketron is much more different and much more creativity and of course don't need any Style Creator like Yamaha.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2022, 12:19:54 PM by Sokratis1974 »
 

Offline ton37

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #368 on: December 03, 2022, 12:32:36 PM »
On Genos we do have the style assembly function and is very easy and quick to use.
Taking parts from other styles and creating your own choices is fun. Then also you have the grove Function which gives a different feel to a style.
Of course Yamaha has a 'style assembly' function, but it makes little sense to mention it, without being able to compare it 1:1 with the Ketron Event. That will probably be possible in the short term? Only then can you properly judge which works best, most creatively and easiest. I don't find the style-assembly function of Yamaha very fascinating. You have to search a lot if you want to find something suitable and then ... nah  ;)
My best regards,
Ton
 

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #369 on: December 03, 2022, 03:37:59 PM »
Ok.
I made you an audio clip (no video yet) so you can get a taste of what Ketron Style Modeling is all about.
Here I am working on a single variation and believe me this is a great surface sample to understand how deep the system is.
Here I make changes mainly to audio elements (Drums, Bass, Guitars).
Keep in mind that I am only working on one variation. Imagine that in each of them (the variations) there is the option for completely different options, mix etc.
But there are so many thousands of options that I could describe it to you for many days.
From 0:21 the changes start. At the end of the 5:24 clip you heard the original style again where I started.
It goes without saying that everything happens in Real Time.

https://app.box.com/s/2k05ujfetfek4raxrsl2m1067tb47ew8
« Last Edit: December 03, 2022, 03:43:22 PM by Sokratis1974 »
 
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Offline Duffy

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #370 on: December 03, 2022, 04:47:44 PM »
Of course Yamaha has a 'style assembly' function, but it makes little sense to mention it, without being able to compare it 1:1 with the Ketron Event. That will probably be possible in the short term? Only then can you properly judge which works best, most creatively and easiest. I don't find the style-assembly function of Yamaha very fascinating. You have to search a lot if you want to find something suitable and then ... nah  ;)

I see you have or have had in the past, a Technics KN7000.
If you have used it in depth, you will know that the Yamaha Style assembly function doesn't go anywhere near as deep as the Technics system did and it's also far harder to use.
As I also own a Ketron instrument, I can tell you that Ketron's system is also far quicker and far easier to use than Yamaha's Style assembly function.
The Genos is a good keyboard but, Style assembly is laughable along with the sound glitch when changing memories.

Offline ton37

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #371 on: December 03, 2022, 08:14:37 PM »
Yes @Duffy, that's what I meant with '..Nah', so we agree  ;)

Ehh, kind of wow, @Sokratis1974  :), thanks
« Last Edit: December 03, 2022, 08:25:20 PM by ton37 »
My best regards,
Ton
 

keynote

  • Guest
Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #372 on: December 08, 2022, 01:24:56 AM »
Here is a just-released YouTube video (in Italiano) of the Ketron Event. He purchased a Ketron Event recently and he goes on to basically explain the ins and outs of the keyboard in his lengthy 2+ hour video. The link I will post will be at the time when he starts playing the Event but I actually listened from the beginning but skipped ahead at various points. As I said it's in Italian but I was able to translate it to English using Google's translate 'transcribe' feature. I have an Android Moto One 5G Ace with Android 11 OS. There is no closed captioning for the video so I resorted to using my cell phone. The translation came out pretty good but your mileage may vary depending on your phone and what operating system you have. Apple Siri might work also if you have an iPhone if, in fact, you're interested in hearing what he's talking about if you don't speak Italiano. Without further ado...

https://youtu.be/W9COE0QFkjU?t=2954

All the best,
Mike

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #373 on: December 08, 2022, 05:06:23 AM »
Here is a just-released YouTube video (in Italiano) of the Ketron Event. He purchased a Ketron Event recently and he goes on to basically explain the ins and outs of the keyboard in his lengthy 2+ hour video. The link I will post will be at the time when he starts playing the Event but I actually listened from the beginning but skipped ahead at various points. As I said it's in Italian but I was able to translate it to English using Google's translate 'transcribe' feature. I have an Android Moto One 5G Ace with Android 11 OS. There is no closed captioning for the video so I resorted to using my cell phone. The translation came out pretty good but your mileage may vary depending on your phone and what operating system you have. Apple Siri might work also if you have an iPhone if, in fact, you're interested in hearing what he's talking about if you don't speak Italiano. Without further ado...

https://youtu.be/W9COE0QFkjU?t=2954

All the best,
Mike
Dear Mike.
This is Mattia Rigoni (Nico) who is an external partner of Ketron (like me) and therefore already has the Event (like me).
The instrument has not yet gone into mass production.
Only a few have been released which will be in some stores as a demo.
However, listening to it we can get a taste.
Later I will also prepare several demos and tutorials.
I haven't got them ready yet due to some technical issues of my own. But these will also be resolved soon.
Thanks
« Last Edit: December 08, 2022, 05:07:48 AM by Sokratis1974 »
 

Offline mikf

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #374 on: December 08, 2022, 02:42:25 PM »
From what I can take from this it seems their style assembly function is streets ahead of the Yamaha, because you can make changes in real time while playing the full chord progression. Yamaha requires you to leave playing mode enter style creator mode, make changes, then return to hear how it might really sound with an actual song.
I imagine that this might not be a simple improvement for Yamaha to emulate, requiring  big changes to the overall system, possible patent minefields, etc.
But of course it also begs the question of how much this will matter to the average arranger buyer, who might never mess with style changes, and who has access to a massive library of Yamaha styles, and custom styles on the internet.
But to others who love to make their own style changes it might be a huge improvement.
Mike
 

Jeff Hollande

  • Guest
Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #375 on: December 08, 2022, 04:22:28 PM »
https://youtu.be/W9COE0QFkjU?t=2954

Wished this video was made in the English language. I do not speak Italian, a very nice language though. ;)

Best wishes, JH
 

Offline BogdanH

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #376 on: December 08, 2022, 05:12:22 PM »
...
But of course it also begs the question of how much this will matter to the average arranger buyer, who might never mess with style changes, and who has access to a massive library of Yamaha styles, and custom styles on the internet.
...
As you mentioned, style creation can be quite confusing on Yamaha, and I think, that's also partially the reason why some don't "mess" with that.
However, I do agree that for many, basic editing (changing voices, tempo, etc.) is more than enough. And if that's the case, then existing collection of Yamaha styles is a hold back for many (and keeps them/us loyal to Yamaha). But I think, we quite limit ourselves by thinking that way. The thing is, other (brand) keyboards also have styles built-in: slow waltz, nice cha-cha, rock beat, mellow country, etc. etc -they all have them!
What I think many see as a benefit by owning Yamaha keyboard, is a fact that a lot of styles (packs) are available for free. But there's an old saying: everything is worth exactly as much we pay for that.

About Ketron Event... it looks really nice (one can't beat Italian design), but that's pretty much all. From users perspective, we actually know nothing about it. Yes, it sounds "nice", but so does PSR-SX if we pick the right voice for the melody.

Just sharing my thoughts,
Bogdan
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 

Jeff Hollande

  • Guest
Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #377 on: December 09, 2022, 10:50:59 AM »
Hey Sokratis1974 :

My dealer said today the Event's exact date of delivery ( promised for December 2022 ) is unknown yet.

BTW, is there a big difference ( sounds, styles, features, etc. ) between the Audya5 and the Event or ... can one call it a " usual " upgrade ?
Your reply would be very much appreciated. Thanks ! :)

Best wishes, JH

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #378 on: December 10, 2022, 05:07:41 AM »
Hey Sokratis1974 :

My dealer said today the Event's exact date of delivery ( promised for December 2022 ) is unknown yet.

BTW, is there a big difference ( sounds, styles, features, etc. ) between the Audya5 and the Event or ... can one call it a " usual " upgrade ?
Your reply would be very much appreciated. Thanks ! :)

Best wishes, JH
Of course.
As you may know I also own Audya (Audya 76 & Audya 5) and have worked with it since 2009 Of course and played with it from 2009 until 2018 when I bought the Genos.
Audya was and is my favorite instrument and I still have them (both) and they work great!
The reason I went to Genos was when I first saw that we could make user audio styles (via Audio Phraser which never worked properly) and the truth is that I always wanted to have a Yamaha arranger but that's another discussion
But let me answer your question.
So, the big difference between Audya and Event is not so much the sounds and styles but the fact that Event is much more (open) to user development to a truly amazing degree.
In other words, it provides so many amazing and unique functions especially in terms of styles that literally no midi programming knowledge is required to create a user style for your needs.
And I think that initially what one is interested in an arranger is the styles in function of course and having good sounds so that they (the sounds) work positively in the whole listening.
So, Ketron since the time of the excellent SD1 (I had that too and worked for almost a decade from 2000 to 2009) has always had very simple but very good sounds that one almost never needs anything more to play and sound great a Grand Piano, an Electric Piano (really very good) a Trumpet a Strings or whatever.
One is not going to find complex and elaborately designed sounds in Ketron, as is the case with Korg and Yamaha in many cases.
Of course, this is not a bad thing (the complex and elaborately designed sounds) because what interests the user is that these sounds perform as they should so that the musician can express himself comfortably through them.
So also here in the Event one will find very simple, but also in some cases intelligently designed sounds and really what impresses me in the Event are the really amazing ORGAN sounds where there is combination  of a very deep DIGITAL DRAWBAR and Sampled Organ of Real Organs (Hammond etc.) where the results are really amazing, although I am not an expert in ORGANS, but still I can have an opinion since I have instruments from all companies.
The question now is whether it is worth the upgrade from Audya to Event? Yes, it's worth it.
If someone had asked me a few years ago if it was worth upgrading from Audya to SD9 I would have clearly said NO.
The SD9/90/60 was never a worthy Audya replacement, and I never went ahead with the upgrade.
I had the SD9 in my studio for several months (on loan from a very good friend of mine) but I never considered it an instrument that would make me replace my old Audya.
So, I am given the opportunity to present you a video that I made and uploaded to YouTube yesterday and it is the first tutorial in a very long series that I am preparing and will be uploaded often.
So here you will see how through STYLE MODELING we can transform a style without a trace of programming and in this video, I only describe the Audio Parts and not the Midi which also work in the same way.
Watch it.
https://youtu.be/E8M-E7vZrLs
Thanks

« Last Edit: December 10, 2022, 05:34:57 AM by Sokratis1974 »
 
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Jeff Hollande

  • Guest
Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #379 on: December 10, 2022, 06:57:45 AM »
Thank you so much, Sokratis for answering my questions, creating and sharing this very interesting Event Video ! Very impressive. :)

Best regards, JH

Offline mikf

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #380 on: December 10, 2022, 08:24:03 AM »
Impressive. Not sure how much I would use this kind of capability, but it does seem like a step change in ease of style modification and making styles less repetitive in real time.

Mike

Jeff Hollande

  • Guest
Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #381 on: December 10, 2022, 10:02:32 AM »
Hey Sokratis :

I would be very grateful if you could show ( or tell ) how midi parts are created and how the final ( short ) midi file would sound like.
Only do it if it is possible for you, if you have time and if you feel like doing it;)
I do not want to force anything.

Thank you very much.
Best wishes, JH
 

Offline BogdanH

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #382 on: December 10, 2022, 10:31:57 AM »
...
So here you will see how through STYLE MODELING we can transform a style without a trace of programming...

I realized, that many in this forum don't necessary agree with my opinions and that's ok. What's more important to me is, to make clear, that it's never my intention just to criticize everything in a negative way. And when I express my wish or opinion, I'm aware that that might not be everyone else's wish.

What is see in this video is, how easy it's supposed to be replacing instruments/riffs, while playing the style (in any key, I assume). And even disco/funk isn't my kind of music, I can recognize,  that this really is a welcome feature compared to current Yamaha.
But what I'm more interested (about 5000€ keyboard) is, how easy it is to make style from scratch. However, not for some random disco rhythm, which purpose is only to sound "cool". As example, some "real" well known music should be chosen, which would demonstrate how close to original we can get and how much work is needed for that.
What I'm saying is, if only some random rhythms are chosen (for sake to impress), then that's only "just another demo" for me.

Probably not related to this topic, but still... By looking at internet shops (in Europe), I have an impression that there's some "crisis" in arranger keyboard industry:
Korg -for latest Pa5x one needs to wait 3+ months, while midrange (Pa) series keyboards many times aren't even listed anymore.
Ketron -actual release of Event model is pretty much unknown and at least price wise, there are no midrange keyboards.
Yamaha -nothing new is going on here (having Genos in mind), although existing keyboards are available.

Bogdan
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #383 on: December 10, 2022, 11:01:53 AM »
I realized, that many in this forum don't necessary agree with my opinions and that's ok. What's more important to me is, to make clear, that it's never my intention just to criticize everything in a negative way. And when I express my wish or opinion, I'm aware that that might not be everyone else's wish.

What is see in this video is, how easy it's supposed to be replacing instruments/riffs, while playing the style (in any key, I assume). And even disco/funk isn't my kind of music, I can recognize,  that this really is a welcome feature compared to current Yamaha.
But what I'm more interested (about 5000€ keyboard) is, how easy it is to make style from scratch. However, not for some random disco rhythm, which purpose is only to sound "cool". As example, some "real" well known music should be chosen, which would demonstrate how close to original we can get and how much work is needed for that.
What I'm saying is, if only some random rhythms are chosen (for sake to impress), then that's only "just another demo" for me.

Probably not related to this topic, but still... By looking at internet shops (in Europe), I have an impression that there's some "crisis" in arranger keyboard industry:
Korg -for latest Pa5x one needs to wait 3+ months, while midrange (Pa) series keyboards many times aren't even listed anymore.
Ketron -actual release of Event model is pretty much unknown and at least price wise, there are no midrange keyboards.
Yamaha -nothing new is going on here (having Genos in mind), although existing keyboards are available.

Bogdan
So..
If you know how to programming a style on a Yamaha Arranger I would tell you that here too the way above all when we work through someone DAW (Cubase, Reaper, Logic etc) it's almost the same.
We simply rename the style file from .KST to .MID and is ready for import as midi file and editing own daw.
After completing the process we export again as a midifile (0) from the daw and again simply rename from .MID to .KST.
That's all.
I must also say that and the onboard STYLE EDIT that it has is particularly easy to use with the only drawback that it does not have event edits such as Genos or any Korg Pa Series.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2022, 11:07:02 AM by Sokratis1974 »
 

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #384 on: December 10, 2022, 11:03:59 AM »
Hey Sokratis :

I would be very grateful if you could show ( or tell ) how midi parts are created and how the final ( short ) midi file would sound like.
Only do it if it is possible for you, if you have time and if you feel like doing it;)
I do not want to force anything.

Thank you very much.
Best wishes, JH
This will come in future tutorials :)
« Last Edit: December 10, 2022, 11:05:35 AM by Sokratis1974 »
 

Offline EileenL

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #385 on: December 10, 2022, 11:54:59 AM »
This demo was fine if all you want to do is play dance music but a lot of us especially home players who are the ones who buy these keyboards a lot, would not want to play this type of music. We sometimes find the styles are to busy for the melody lines  so cut them back a little. I will defiantly be sticking to my Genos as there are hundreds of styles available to use and many are song specific. I wonder how you have time to play a descent Melody when you are busy changing all the style parts.

Offline BogdanH

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #386 on: December 10, 2022, 12:39:35 PM »
hi Eileen,
That's exactly what I wanted to say in my previous post, when I mentioned that "real" music should be used. I'm aware that (very) young people do listen to disco/funk/whatever, or they just don't care as long there's enough "boom" (and melody is many times irrelevant). But then, at such parties, DJ usually don't use arranger keyboard at all.
Even many of us in this forum are in "mature" age, that doesn't mean we play "old-fashion" obsolete music. Actually I'm sure, that younger audience is very much interested in "Classic" dance music we play... to dance & sway on rhythms of songs they're familiar with.
PSR-SX700 on K&M-18820 stand
Playing for myself on Youtube
 

Jeff Hollande

  • Guest
Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #387 on: December 10, 2022, 01:42:48 PM »
IMHO Sokratis' only intention was to show us ( in this video ) how the Event's system is working if a player wants to change the existing styles parts, correct ? :)

JH

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #388 on: December 10, 2022, 02:07:24 PM »
hi Eileen,
That's exactly what I wanted to say in my previous post, when I mentioned that "real" music should be used. I'm aware that (very) young people do listen to disco/funk/whatever, or they just don't care as long there's enough "boom" (and melody is many times irrelevant). But then, at such parties, DJ usually don't use arranger keyboard at all.
Even many of us in this forum are in "mature" age, that doesn't mean we play "old-fashion" obsolete music. Actually I'm sure, that younger audience is very much interested in "Classic" dance music we play... to dance & sway on rhythms of songs they're familiar with.
This specific technique (Style Modeling) is not only used in DANCE Styles but there is also an Audio and Midi Palette for many categories (Ballads, Pop, Country, Jazz, Rock etc.)
But I would say it's better to close the issue of the Event here because I'm also starting to feel uncomfortable since this is a Yamaha Forum and not Ketron.
So please don't ask me any more questions about the Event here.
If anyone would like more information, please contact me personally.
Thank you very much.
 

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #389 on: December 10, 2022, 03:07:54 PM »
This demo was fine if all you want to do is play dance music but a lot of us especially home players who are the ones who buy these keyboards a lot, would not want to play this type of music. We sometimes find the styles are to busy for the melody lines  so cut them back a little. I will defiantly be sticking to my Genos as there are hundreds of styles available to use and many are song specific. I wonder how you have time to play a descent Melody when you are busy changing all the style parts.
I couldn't agree more, Eileen. I estimate 99% of Genos or other arranger users are still interested in playing "human music." It annoys me to no end when any company demos their new keyboard using Funk, Rap, or Dance styles to entice me into buying one. With all due respect to those musicians, I find it takes FAR more talent to play the tunes we were all raised with than a bunch of repetitive noise that hinges itself on the technical prowess of the engineers who created those styles rather than, the musical talent of the player.

Once you've mastered those styles, there seems to be little room for expansion. You've conquered the genre. Learning to play Blues and then taking on the Ray Charles or Oscar Peterson styles requires one to live about 200 years to even scratch the surface - and that's just two artists!
"Learn" your music correctly, then "practice" it. Don't practice mistakes because you'll learn them.
 

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #390 on: December 10, 2022, 03:27:03 PM »
I couldn't agree more, Eileen. I estimate 99% of Genos or other arranger users are still interested in playing "human music." It annoys me to no end when any company demos their new keyboard using Funk, Rap, or Dance styles to entice me into buying one. With all due respect to those musicians, I find it takes FAR more talent to play the tunes we were all raised with than a bunch of repetitive noise that hinges itself on the technical prowess of the engineers who created those styles rather than, the musical talent of the player.

Once you've mastered those styles, there seems to be little room for expansion. You've conquered the genre. Learning to play Blues and then taking on the Ray Charles or Oscar Peterson styles requires one to live about 200 years to even scratch the surface - and that's just two artists!
I won't argue. But I should also remind you of the Genos campaign that we never learned about and what its purpose was. If you remember well, with these three DANCE tracks Yamaha did the Genos campaign and until today we didn't find out what these tracks had to do with the Genos.
And in fact, this campaign had a celebrity as its protagonist DJ.
Also I would like to tell you that usually I at least don't label any music as (noise)... If there is even one who expresses himself with it I respect it.. If it bothers me I'm just not interested in it.

GENΟS CAMPAIGN
1) https://youtu.be/jHdbmEGyyNg

2) https://youtu.be/nSJhKv1ZGIk

3) https://youtu.be/ZWLkgGZpJWE


« Last Edit: December 10, 2022, 03:42:26 PM by Sokratis1974 »
 

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #391 on: December 10, 2022, 03:53:14 PM »
"Noise," Sokrtis? You're right. I stand corrected. To play the modern music genres in my aforementioned post, here is the keyboard that is needed to pretty much cover it all 🤣.

"Learn" your music correctly, then "practice" it. Don't practice mistakes because you'll learn them.
 

Offline mikf

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #392 on: December 10, 2022, 04:54:49 PM »
I think it's pretty clear that Socrates is demonstrating the technical capability, not a specific type of music. We can use our imagination and see how the same technology could be applied to all styles - pop, swing, jazz .....and it's a mile easier than the way we currently have to edit our styles on a Yamaha.
Whether that is important to you or not is a separate question. In my view the typical arranger buyer doesn't mess too much with style editing. But then again, is that partly because it's a pain to do so at the moment? What if it was easier. Would we use it much more??
It would be nice to see a very similar demo based on more traditional music styles. I think most of us would find it much more meaningful. One of the concerns I have for keyboard design is that the people driving the design of these keyboards are likely in their 20s and 30s while the buyers are largely in their 50s, 60s and 70s. Do they understand the market, or are they trying to change the market?
I am also in agreement with Bogdan, I see how it makes style editing simple, but what about making a style - especially intros and endings. Is that any easier??
BTW Sokratis, this is a Yamaha users forum and website... not actually Yamaha forum. But I take your point.
Mike

Offline Bill

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #393 on: December 10, 2022, 05:23:21 PM »
[quote author=Sokratis1974
But I would say it's better to close the issue of the Event here because I'm also starting to feel uncomfortable since this is a Yamaha Forum and not Ketron.
So please don't ask me any more questions about the Event here.
If anyone would like more information, please contact me personally.
Thank you very much.
[/quote]

Hi Sokratis

I can only apologise if some members make you feel uncomfortable (I would too). However I would like to thank you very much for all the time you have taken to give us a little understanding of the new developing technology. I really appreciate it.

Regards

Bill
England

Current KB:  YAMAHA GENOS 2
 

Offline ugawoga

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #394 on: December 10, 2022, 05:55:55 PM »
Hi
i must say the genos is absolute quality and i am sticking with it
You can turn anything on Genos to wave file anyway.
this keyboard is streets ahead of anything out there in it's class.
Just enhance the Genos with VST  and Sample Robot.
Skies the limit 8) :)
Genos, I7 computer 32 gig ram, Focusrite 6i6, Cubase controller, Focal Alpha Monitors, Yamaha DXR8 Speakers
Cubase 10, Sonarworks, Izotope.  Sampletank, Arturia and Korg software.  Now IK Mixbox
 

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #395 on: December 10, 2022, 06:04:49 PM »
Mike makes an excellent point. I think more users would venture into style creation and modifications if Yamaha made it a lot easier. Admittingly, I haven't spent much time editing or creating styles but from the little time I have devoted I can say the method is a convoluted pain in the neck. And forget style creation. I won't live long enough to figure out that terrible software.

To be fair to Yamaha, most onboard, deep-dive editing is a pain. It would be SO much easier if the style could be loaded onto a PC or Mac, modified, tested, and then passed back to the Genos. Perhaps in Genos 2?
"Learn" your music correctly, then "practice" it. Don't practice mistakes because you'll learn them.
 

Offline ugawoga

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #396 on: December 10, 2022, 06:33:02 PM »
Hi Lee
Hope you and family are doing well.
If you want great styles ------------------------------https://www.d-o-o.de/
                                          Cross off top part of page and underneath turn german to English
I would not waste time making styles as they are a bit time consuming.
I use Midi Soft Style program to just change styles and turn them into what i want. Great midi program.
You can make your own intro's, turn to wave and put them in the Pad section to fire off, same with breaks and endings.
 Also Padmaker is a great program to get the right volume levels and to make things easier
Padmaker can make intro's etc from midi files out there
Skies the limit!!! ;D
These Ketron fans talk of Wave files , But it is all there in the Genos, PADS!!!

All the best
John :) :) :)
HAPPY CHRISTMAS


Ps i will come out soon after the long Mix and master fiasco that i have been put through of my own will.

Pc best for editing
Southern Comfort  best for relaxing!!! ;D

« Last Edit: December 10, 2022, 06:40:55 PM by ugawoga »
Genos, I7 computer 32 gig ram, Focusrite 6i6, Cubase controller, Focal Alpha Monitors, Yamaha DXR8 Speakers
Cubase 10, Sonarworks, Izotope.  Sampletank, Arturia and Korg software.  Now IK Mixbox
 

Offline ton37

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #397 on: December 10, 2022, 06:56:05 PM »
[quote author=Sokratis1974
But I would say it's better to close the issue of the Event here because I'm also starting to feel uncomfortable since this is a Yamaha Forum and not Ketron.
So please don't ask me any more questions about the Event here.
If anyone would like more information, please contact me personally.
Thank you very much.


Hi Sokratis

I can only apologise if some members make you feel uncomfortable (I would too). However I would like to thank you very much for all the time you have taken to give us a little understanding of the new developing technology. I really appreciate it.

Regards

Bill
Bill, You don't have to apologize for some members who, with some short-sightedness, do not wish to have an open discussion because they feel that their 'Genos' should not be subjected to criticism in any way. Anyone can read the posts and sees what's happening.  After all, we're all adults, right?? Just check out a Ketron forum, just as easy. ;)
« Last Edit: December 10, 2022, 07:00:05 PM by ton37 »
My best regards,
Ton
 

Offline mikf

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #398 on: December 10, 2022, 07:04:53 PM »
John
Don’t understand your point about re wav files. The points being made in the last few posts in this thread are about much easier style editing, not advantages or otherwise of wav vs midi??
The Genos is a great keyboard, and is arguably better than Ketron in some regards, but what Ketron have done here appears to be a major breakthrough in easy style modification, and certainly interesting.
Mike

Re: New TOTL Arranger from Ketron
« Reply #399 on: December 10, 2022, 08:22:28 PM »
Doing great, thanks John 🎄!

I sure agree that it's easier to buy or acquire ready made styles. They certainly are difficult to get right. Someday I may venture down that path.
Stay well!

- Lee

"Learn" your music correctly, then "practice" it. Don't practice mistakes because you'll learn them.