Author Topic: No seamless sound switching 'bit' me at a gig (Bad sound!)  (Read 1452 times)

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Offline jimlaing

No seamless sound switching 'bit' me at a gig (Bad sound!)
« on: June 29, 2018, 06:21:57 PM »
Hi - first, I'll mention that overall I'm loving the Genos.  I've switched 100% over to it (From a Tyros 5).  Love the new sounds, more DSP power, 76 notes, lighter weight, real-time controls, Revo drums, and many more things.  Also love that Polyphony is now 128 stereo - I play songs that ALWAYS had note drop-outs on Tyros5, that don't at all on Genos.

However ... I got "bit" by a particularly bad "lack of seamless sound switching" a few days ago at a gig.  I was doing my medley of Sound of Music songs. . . I have about 20 or so Registrations to do this (a little more than 2 Reg. banks in my case).  I was in the middle of the medley, had a chord held in the Left hand, and I pressed the next registration button (while holding that chord).  OUCH - heard this awful, incredibly loud sound - I let go of that chord as quick as I could!  And this was at a "lull" or "quite point" in the medley - I'm guessing the audience thought my amp/speaker had malfunctioned ... (which it didn't) . . .

Anyway, I have to learn to better "detach" my hands from the keyboard when I press a "next" registration button.

I'm guessing Yamaha can't retroactively (via firmware updates) implement seamless sounds switching ... I've heard the sound-switching problem before, but usually it was fairly subtle - just an interruption in held (or sustaining) notes, or the reverb suddenly changing or dropping out.  This NASTY loud, weird sound was a 1st for me to encounter.  I wonder if was a "DSP-switching" problem rather than just a sample/sound switching problem?

I'm going to try to duplicate it to see if I can determine what caused it (what one registration had, vs. the other one) ...

Jim
Raleigh, NC, USA / Genos / Tyros5-61 / Lucas Nana 600 / other stuff
 

Offline DrakeM

Re: No seamless sound switching 'bit' me at a gig (Bad sound!)
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2018, 07:24:05 PM »
The issue you are describing also happens when you are flipping between the MAINs A, B, C &D . You just need to adjust the volume of the OTS, in your case, registration bank that you're switching to.

Offline Joe H

Re: No seamless sound switching 'bit' me at a gig (Bad sound!)
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2018, 08:12:39 PM »
Jim,

It sounds like the typical DSP tail, but I'm wondering if it was a difference in Voice(s) volume on the OTS. I get this same affect when playing Multi Pads and change Main Sections / OTS without stopping the MPs first.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline travlin-easy

Re: No seamless sound switching 'bit' me at a gig (Bad sound!)
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2018, 08:55:36 PM »
Jim, this has been a problem with every Yamaha arranger keyboard ever made - nothing new! I first experienced this with my old PSR-5700 more than 3 decades ago.

The only workaround is to be sure that your left hand is not holding down on the chord when you make the registration/voice change - it's that simple.

Good luck,

Gary 8)
Love Those Yammies...
 

Offline jimlaing

Re: No seamless sound switching 'bit' me at a gig (Bad sound!)
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2018, 09:23:07 PM »
Hi - thanks all ... yes, I knew that "smooth sound transition" etc. has been a problem all along.  This was the first time though, that it happened to cause a really loud, obnoxious sound ... most of the time, if I wasn't careful on my timing of releasing held notes when changing registrations, I'd hear a subtle, not-too-noticable glitch ...

I know now to be even more careful about releasing held notes (and lifting sustain pedal) before making reg. changes that might induce this issue . . .

Thanks!
Jim
Raleigh, NC, USA / Genos / Tyros5-61 / Lucas Nana 600 / other stuff
 

Offline Marcus

Re: No seamless sound switching 'bit' me at a gig (Bad sound!)
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2018, 04:14:04 AM »
Here are a few walk-around suggestions to minimize the "sound switching" issue.

1) Left hand voice is never an issue for me because I "Freeze" (Freeze Button function) the Left Hand voice. I create Registration Voice banks. One bank of various suitable Right Hand voices that would work well with a Left Hand piano voice. Another registration bank with a suitable organ voice for the Left Hand voice with various voice registrations that use organ type voices. Thirdly, a custom Ensemble voice Registration Bank. Ensemble voices share the same DSP block, so no sound glitches between Ensemble voice combinations.

The first Registration Sound bank had all my initial settings built into memory button 1. For the Registration Freeze settings (Direct Access - Freeze), I have "Style" and "Tempo" checked on, but keep "Voice" and "Multipad" unchecked. I would press registration memory preset and then press the "Freeze" button to lock the Left Hand piano voice or another left hand voice of your choosing. I use my Left Hand voice to control the chords anyway, so I can at least add some rhythmic type chording with Left Hand piano or an organ voice. With Full AI Keyboard fingering I can easily jump my left hand chording over the LH split point and still trigger the style chords with both LH and RH playing interpreting the style chords.

Even if I have the Left Hand piano voice locked in (froze), both the Genos and the Tyros 5 allow Ensemble to switch back and forth from non-Ensemble voice while the style plays. For me, totally amazing to enter Ensemble at anytime or cycle seamlessly back and forth between a Left Hand locked voice and in my case, a full Ensemble Voice Registration Sound bank. A dream for the live performer. On both the Tyros 5 and Genos, Ensemble voices can be saved to a style OTS memory.

If I want to quickly switch to organ type playing and MIDI bass pedal playing, I cycle to the Organ Registration Sound Bank, unfreeze, press Registration Memory button 1, activate Freeze again locking in the left hand organ voice and I again can cycle through all my mixed Registration Sound Banks while a style plays. Another reason I create Custom Registration Voice banks is to create exact voice setting/parameters I like and create (in essence) a huge custom sound library I can feed off to use directly for Style OTS saves. I am so particular (hopefully not an obsession disorder), that I practically never use a default voice setting or the OTS saves each default style has.

2) Purposely group or select voices within OST saves or Song Registration Memories that use the same DSP effect or effects block to minimize the sudden switching to another DSP type. Example: I may keep the same organ type and rotary speaker effect between OTS saves or Registration button memories, yet I wouldn't have to worry about any sudden noise while the voice changes to another Organ flutage (drawbar setting) or between fast and slow Leslie effect (same DSP).

3) You can also set the Style OTS Link Timing from Real Time to Next Bar, in the Menu-Style Setting-OTS Link Timing. I personally use "Real Time" OTS changes, but I just have to be mindful to lift off my Right Hand notes.

4) This little trick works when you want to use just single Right Hand voices (no layers). Just save the four voices you want Left Hand, Right Hand 1,2,3 and save what combinations you want into the Registration Memory slots or Style OTS memories. No chance of sound switching issues because the voices and associated DSPs are already pre-loaded. Of course you can manually switch on or off voice parts at anytime simply from the panel, but memory saves to a registration or OTS button can automatically make the voice selection for you.

5) I link my MIDI bass pedals to the third Right Hand voice or Right 3 button voice. Another reason to use the third Right Hand voice, because it corresponds to the fourth Ensemble voice. The Genos doesn't care if the voice is on or off on the panel...the voice still sounds in the octave the MIDI bass pedal note plays. This works very well, because sometimes you want the third Right Hand voice to play with your right hand, yet also the lower octave notes to play with the MIDI bass. Other times you don't want your right notes to play, yet you want to hear the bass notes. Again, the bass notes will play regardless if the Right Hand 3 button is off or on. Just to conclude that sound switching issues don't come into play in combination using MIDI Bass board pedals, within the chosen Right Hand 3 voices, mostly because of the reasons stated in point 4).

Hope the above helps. Over the years I managed to minimize the issue, but an issue Yamaha can most likely correct within the present platform/OS or the next Genos/PSR model arranger.

Marcus   
« Last Edit: June 30, 2018, 04:17:04 AM by Marcus »
Gear: Triangle
"Extremely Happy with Genos"
 
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Offline ugawoga

Re: No seamless sound switching 'bit' me at a gig (Bad sound!)
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2018, 09:47:41 AM »
Make sure all volume levels are equal between registrations in the styles and leads.This makes a huge difference
Also can be down to play timing as well.
Things can get annoying sometimes ,but we all have to workaround.
It would be nice also to have a drum fill come in when you want it as we all are a few moments out sometimes. We are not machines.
   ;D
« Last Edit: June 30, 2018, 09:51:06 AM by ugawoga »
 

Offline 8t8KEEZ

Re: No seamless sound switching 'bit' me at a gig (Bad sound!)
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2018, 12:34:24 AM »
Yes... ran into this too .... THEN, decided to experiment ...

Right 1, 2, 3 "volumes" between Registration 1, 2, 3, etc., MUST be somewhat consistent, or very close in the neighborhood of each other.

IF you can do that, then, holding a chord when changing to another registration will NOT be a problem ....

What is happening is, "whatever" you are playing, takes on the "volume" of the registration you are switching to...

I LOVE that it just doesn't "change" the sound .... THAT is awesome .... but the volume for Right 1 on registration 2 MUST be somewhat the same as the volume for Right 1 on registration 1...

IF not - you will have this challenge ... It actually didn't dawn on me until I actually came across 'hmmmmm..... i wonder ...."

BUT, I feel your pain! There's a workaround and the workaround actually makes perfect sense ...
 

Offline EileenL

Re: No seamless sound switching 'bit' me at a gig (Bad sound!)
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2018, 11:23:53 AM »
Yes thinking about and then setting your registrations up this way will overcome those sudden increases in volume. Also be aware of if you are using a voice that sustains at a high volume in right one and then you change to a normal voice with lower volume you will get an unwelcome sound as you change.

Offline ugawoga

Re: No seamless sound switching 'bit' me at a gig (Bad sound!)
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2018, 05:04:08 PM »
Hi Jim

After reading about others, I wonder if to stop sound and fill glitches when changing registrations, use the one touch for sounds . Put your own in the one touch section
I will have a go at that as that may be a smoother option.


All the best
john
« Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 05:05:30 PM by ugawoga »
 

Offline Joe H

Re: No seamless sound switching 'bit' me at a gig (Bad sound!)
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2018, 05:37:36 PM »
A good compromise is to use the same DSPs for all OTS Right-hand Voices. I don't think you will hear glitches then.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline ugawoga

Re: No seamless sound switching 'bit' me at a gig (Bad sound!)
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2018, 08:35:35 PM »
Hi Joe

I am doing a song and using an orchestra and wah wah guitar for the chorus which is the Psychedelic part I am trying to achieve and then I play a sitar break and then back to Wah wah and orchestra for a finish.
The fills I am using in between glitch if I do not get my hands off the chord section quickly and is  a little annoying at times.

So to get a wah wah guitar and orchestra dsp right with a sitar is difficult as sometimes you get a bleed over in the fill of a wah wah guitar somehow.
I will keep trying different workarounds.
So, I keep all volumes in the registrations virtually at the same level for the styles and leads and that cuts a lot of strange things happening.
The fills always seem to glitch if they are hit slightly late or sometimes i have known them not to fire at all on odd occasions.
probably pilot error.
I am thinking on difficult sounding songs to make a drum fill and assign to a pad.

I am not doing a lot lately as the weather is so hot and nice. cannot stay indoors for long!! 8)


All the best
john :)
« Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 08:38:19 PM by ugawoga »
 

Offline Joe H

Re: No seamless sound switching 'bit' me at a gig (Bad sound!)
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2018, 09:24:10 PM »
Jim,

It sounds like the typical DSP tail, but I'm wondering if it was a difference in Voice(s) volume on the OTS. I get this same affect when playing Multi Pads and change Main Sections / OTS without stopping the MPs first.

Joe H

As I stated above John... I think the volume differences can cause a harsh effect as well as DSP Type changes.  I tend to not being playing any right-hand notes when I switch Main sections / OTS.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline ugawoga

Re: No seamless sound switching 'bit' me at a gig (Bad sound!)
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2018, 01:30:12 PM »
Hi Joe
Just doing a 60s psychedelic song and when changing the wah guitar with a reg change including fill "It goes WOW!!! :-\
You are right ,the DSP does interfere . This song has taken me ages to get the registrations right. I take the time as I want to play these songs straight off rather than building lego brick music. Daws for me are used for editing mainly.
With this song I like the bleed over and will keep that in as a strange 60s anomaly!!! 8)  "Peace Man"!!! :-*


All the best
John :)

ps At the moment I have been lazy making music as It has been so flippin' hot!!! ::)
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 01:36:37 PM by ugawoga »
 

Offline jimlaing

Re: No seamless sound switching 'bit' me at a gig (Bad sound!)
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2018, 01:38:14 PM »
Far Out, Groovy, man!    8)
Raleigh, NC, USA / Genos / Tyros5-61 / Lucas Nana 600 / other stuff
 

Offline ugawoga

Re: No seamless sound switching 'bit' me at a gig (Bad sound!)
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2018, 10:53:08 PM »
Hi Jim

Back on with the music as England are pushed out of the world cup
I want the weather to cool down a bit as well. It is like Florida over here in the UK


All the best
John :) 8)
 

Offline travlin-easy

Re: No seamless sound switching 'bit' me at a gig (Bad sound!)
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2018, 03:31:56 PM »
Actually, it has been much cooler in south Florida than it has been here in Maryland and the UK. :)

Gary 8)
Love Those Yammies...