Author Topic: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained  (Read 1744 times)

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Offline rattley

Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« on: May 31, 2018, 08:03:04 AM »
I got this email from Yamaha today.

"It is the first of a series of blog postings dedicated to the understanding of Genos."

I currently use full fingered mode. I remember trying AI mode but didn't spend that much time with it to see if it might be better.

Looking forward to seeing some more. -charley

https://hub.yamaha.com/genos-power-playi...ent=text_module
 
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Offline EileenL

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2018, 06:00:08 PM »
Thanks Charlie,
  Very interesting and AI is great to use.

Offline maartenb

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2018, 08:29:07 PM »
Here is the direct link to the article: https://hub.yamaha.com/genos-power-playing-mastering-ai-fingered-mode/

AI Fingered is a great way to play chords and have the greatest control of the bass that's capable on a keyboard. Only organ players and real bass players have greater control.

It's unique to Yamaha keyboards.


Maarten
 
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Offline Lloyd E

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2018, 09:05:54 PM »
This is going to be a series of "how to" by Yamaha. Not many other companies help like Yamaha.  Glad I own a Yamaha Product.   Lloyd
Music is the way to go
 

Offline mikf

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2018, 06:06:13 PM »
Not sure that learning all the short cut chords is not harder than just learning the chords ;D
But I guess the beauty of the AI settings is that you can do either and it has sufficient intelligence to interpret. I play AI full keyboard a lot, and this is a great setting for piano players. You can play almost exactly as you would normally play piano across both hands and the accompaniment follows very well, even picking up most inversions and advanced chords, or at least getting close enough that you would not notice.
Mike
 

Offline voodoo

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2018, 08:38:57 PM »
Not sure that learning all the short cut chords is not harder than just learning the chords ;D

The real advantage if AI fingering is, that you can

* play regular chords with three or four fingers (no matter of inversion)
* and play bass inversion chords with two fingers.

This combination is unique and real great.

Uli
Yamaha Genos (finally)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline Jay B.

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2018, 09:49:34 PM »
New S970 owner here and I appreciate this thread. As I am getting my playing chops back, I have been struggling with the keyboard reading my left hand chords while using styles. After many years of playing in bands and jazz groups, I often don't play the chord root on the bottom of my voicings, if at all. I am going to try the other modes this weekend and see which one works best for me.

Jay B.
 

Offline panos

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2018, 01:47:19 AM »
With styles it works easier for me to play inversions of the chords so I don't have to move a lot my left hand around the keyboard and I think it doesn't effect the style's "acoustic" result that much or if not at all sometimes.

With these root fixed,root transpose etc things that each style part was made of
and usually 4 parts playing different keys of the same chord at the same time,
maybe an inversion or a  compound chord won't sound so much different as it would be if you have played the song without a style,
which in that case you would play as a pianist, so you wouldn't press all the chord's keys at the same time.
 
In inversions all chord types can be played from F2 to #F3 (which is just a range of an octave +2 keys),
except from some rare chord types.
Just some thoughts because I cannot control so quickly and accurately my left hand  ;D

Offline andyg

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2018, 02:22:02 AM »
As I said on another forum, this is interesting but not enough. It doesn't explain much about AI or the best ways of using it, a couple of which have already been mentioned in posts to this thread.

The best thing about AI Fingered mode is that it's totally 'transparent' to normal chords, regardless of the inversion that they are played in. So my strong recommendation is that everyone who does not need '1 finger chords' in MultiFinger mode should go straight to AI Fingered. AI only starts to work when you ask it to, when not needed you won't even know it's selected!

If makes short work of things like C/G or G/F. It's capable of doing chords like F/G, though the display will be a little confused saying F*/G. Rootless 9ths and 13ths are easy, following exactly the chords that the organist would have used (remember that arranger keyboards are the children of the home organ) along with a foot on a pedal note. The more you ask AI to do, and the more you understand its logic, the more it surprises you.

Steven Sondheim's harmonies are often complex, how about an opening sequence of F 6,9 alternating with Cm9/F? AI can do that, albeit with a 5 note chord (in theory you can use 4 but I haven't got a keyboard here to try it) and a chord where the thumb has to reach over the second finger to play it more comfortably.

Some time ago, Jackie Marsden wrote a couple of articles in the Yamaha Club Magazine which were very, very good, but even they didn't cover all of what was possible. I've been asked a few times to rewrite and extend those articles and, given enough time and a bit of assistance, it's something that I will get around to. Writing what will be a few thousand words is time-consuming! And I'd need Jackie Marsden's blessing to do so.

One little tip. If you have a 61 key instrument, then set the Style and Left key split to G2 rather than F#2. This will allow for the G/B chord that is common in the key of C. Practically every chord you'll ever want can be played with the key split set this way, though at Grade 8 and Diploma exam levels, my students have come across very unusual, but workable, AI chords that have required a key split as high as Bb2!

One little snippet. Not so long ago a good friend of mine (who's been in the business as long as me - 48 years!) told me that AI was actually 'invented', or devised, by his late father, also a friend. He took it to Yamaha and they snapped it up. I'm glad they did!
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 02:24:30 AM by andyg »
It's not what you play, it's not how you play. It's the fact that you're playing that counts.

www.andrew-gilbert.com
 
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Offline manuel

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2018, 02:47:05 AM »
I am going to give another example of AI Fingered....all of us have heard the song Ice castles, well, in the intro (assuming you play it in the key of "C"), first chord is C, then D chord with C Bass, well with the AI you play C then for the second chord play C & D together......

Another example is if you need to play the F chord with the C bass.....play CF.....

There are many more....

My 2 cents
Manuel
My 2 Cents

Manuel
 

Offline rattley

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2018, 07:25:13 AM »
Thanks for all the replies.

Last night I wanted to start exploring AI again and went to change the setting. Low and behold........I already had "AI Fingered"  selected!!  I've had it this way since the beginning........silly me.  I guess since I play full chords I never heard any differences.  Looking forward to trying out some of the examples in the replies. -charley
 

Offline andyg

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2018, 04:41:27 PM »
As I said "when not needed, you won't know it's selected".

I rest my case, m'lud! :D
It's not what you play, it's not how you play. It's the fact that you're playing that counts.

www.andrew-gilbert.com
 

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2018, 11:19:04 PM »
Some time ago, Jackie Marsden wrote a couple of articles in the Yamaha Club Magazine which were very, very good, but even they didn't cover all of what was possible. I've been asked a few times to rewrite and extend those articles and, given enough time and a bit of assistance, it's something that I will get around to. Writing what will be a few thousand words is time-consuming! And I'd need Jackie Marsden's blessing to do so.

Why don't you just shoot some tutorial videos? Way faster and easier. I'd even be willing to buy that series from you and I'll be others would too!
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Offline andyg

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2018, 08:55:16 AM »
That's also a possibility that's under consideration!

Time is going to be the issue for me, not enough hours in the day, and I often spend 'downtime' - like now at 12.45 am - typing away! So the written form is something that I'm easy with!
It's not what you play, it's not how you play. It's the fact that you're playing that counts.

www.andrew-gilbert.com
 
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Offline emmaco

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2018, 08:58:40 PM »
I discovered by accident that in AI fingered mode, when you hit 3 row notes (say C-C#-D, or B-C-C# etc) it stops arrangement except drums (with a crash at first beat).
Edit : It also works in other modes.

But I prefer Fingered On Bass mode, you can make what you really want to hear. ‘For instance, a C/Bb chord doesn’t sound as well in AI mode.
Anyway, I didn’t find the way to do C/Bb in AI mode, except C-D-Bb but it doesn’t sound as well as in Fingered on Bass mode where you can play what you want to hear.

But it’s all new to me… ;)
 

Offline voodoo

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2018, 10:11:40 PM »
I discovered by accident that in AI fingered mode, when you hit 3 row notes (say C-C#-D, or B-C-C# etc) it stops arrangement except drums (with a crash at first beat).
Edit : It also works in other modes.

But I prefer Fingered On Bass mode, you can make what you really want to hear. ‘For instance, a C/Bb chord doesn’t sound as well in AI mode.
Anyway, I didn’t find the way to do C/Bb in AI mode, except C-D-Bb but it doesn’t sound as well as in Fingered on Bass mode where you can play what you want to hear.

But it’s all new to me… ;)

If you want to play C/Bb in AI mode, you should press the notes Bb+C.

With Fingered on Bass you can play any combinations, but you have to play all regular chords in root inversion, so your left hand has to move long ways for standard chord progressions. This is much easier in AI mode. With AI mode you can play any 3-note inversion for regular chords, and get inversions easily with 2-note-fingerings.

Uli
Yamaha Genos (finally)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline emmaco

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2018, 10:19:27 PM »
Sorry…
I wanted to talk about Bb/C… :-[
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 10:22:27 PM by emmaco »
 

Offline maartenb

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2018, 11:11:36 PM »
Sorry…
I wanted to talk about Bb/C… :-[
In AI Fingered mode, play (from left to right): c - d - f - Bb - c


Maarten
 

Offline mikf

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2018, 11:29:20 PM »
Unfortunately as Martin says, there is a no short cut fingering in AI mode for Bb/C and you have to finger the five notes as Martin lays out playing just the four notes C D F Bb gives you Bb9. Frankly, even for a very experienced player, this five note chord is not really practical unless you can catch the top C with the thumb of your RH below the split point. But that would also normally be impractical because most people would have the split point set much lower than can be reached.
I tend to use AI full keyboard most of the time and there it works easily by playing bass in the LH and a rh Bb chord along with the Rh melody. As a piano player that is very natural for me.
Mike
 

Offline emmaco

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2018, 04:40:04 AM »
In AI Fingered mode, play (from left to right): c - d - f - Bb - c

In Fingered On Bass mode, it’s C-D-F-Bb… a note less…
But for sure, AI mode is very interesting...
But for a piano player as I am, Fingered on Bass is good. Not need to relearn new fingerings.

It depends on the style played.

What a wonderful keyboard !…  :o yesterday I was in vacation, I sat in front of my keyboard at 7am, and I left at midnight… 17 hours on an armchair… not so good for my knees… :D

Offline EileenL

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2018, 06:51:22 AM »
You just need to play Bb and C together Bb being the lower note. This will give you C chord with a Bb bass.

Offline emmaco

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2018, 04:19:14 PM »
You just need to play Bb and C together Bb being the lower note. This will give you C chord with a Bb bass.

Yes, but in fact I wanted Bb Chord with a C bass. And with AI Fingered, it needs 5 fingers… the option C-D-F (so 3 fingers) works approximately but it doesn’t reproduce the real thing.
That’s why I prefer Fingered On Bass mode.

There’s so much to do with this keyboard !…

if I had been told 30 years ago that I could accompany Freddy Mercury or Paul McCartney with my piano, I would not have believed it !… ;D

It’s a chance to be a musician those days… ;)
 

Offline mikf

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2018, 07:14:14 PM »
Eileen -yes, the AI option for Bb/C is a five fingered chord and not really a practical proposition as was stated in previous posts. There is no short cut for this in AI.
Mike
 
 

Offline maartenb

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2018, 04:21:33 PM »
the AI option for Bb/C is a five fingered chord and not really a practical proposition

There is an easier way in AI Fingered for this chord. You still have to use five fingers, but it's easier to play and... you get a real Bb/C chord instead of a Bbadd9/C.

Play (from left to right):
  • c - c# - d - f - Bb (chord: Bb/C)
  • c - d - f - Bb - c (chord: Bbadd9/C)

In Fingered on Bass it's impossible to play a Bb/C*. You can only play this chord with AI Fingered!


Maarten

*) You will get Bbadd9/C
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 04:29:57 PM by maartenb »
 

Offline voodoo

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2018, 05:30:46 PM »
There is an easier way in AI Fingered for this chord. You still have to use five fingers, but it's easier to play and... you get a real Bb/C chord instead of a Bbadd9/C.

Play (from left to right):
  • c - c# - d - f - Bb (chord: Bb/C)
  • c - d - f - Bb - c (chord: Bbadd9/C)

In Fingered on Bass it's impossible to play a Bb/C*. You can only play this chord with AI Fingered!


Maarten

*) You will get Bbadd9/C

Wow, very precise answer.

So I understand the second case. This is the rule: In AI mode, whatever note is played twice (in octave) will be the bass note. So you can construct other slash chords as well.

But what rule is underlying the first case? Is there a rule that "c - c#" adds bass note c without adding it to the chord?

Uli
Yamaha Genos (finally)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline mikf

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2018, 05:53:48 PM »
Isn't  Bbadd9/C basically just Bb/C?? Just a rose by another name.
Mike
 

Offline maartenb

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2018, 06:01:49 PM »
Wow, very precise answer.

Thank you!


Is there a rule that "c - c#" adds bass note c without adding it to the chord?

Yes, apparently! I discovered this by accident (I am a real nerd when it comes to AI Fingering.  ;D)

This rule doesn't always work, but you can play quite a few chords with it:
  • D/C: c - c# - d - f# - a
  • Dm/C: c - c# - d - f - a
  • Ebm/C: c - c# - Eb - Fb - Bb
  • E/C: c - c# - e - g# - b
  • Em/C: c - c# - e - g - b
  • Gm/C: c - c# - d - g - Bb
  • A/C: c - c# - e - a
  • Bb/C: c - c# - d - f - Bb (already noted in previous posts)
  • B/C: c - c# - d# - f# - b
  • Bm/C: c- c# - d - f# - b

AI Fingering is soooooooooooooooooooo cool!


Maarten
 

Offline maartenb

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2018, 06:08:36 PM »
Isn't  Bbadd9/C basically just Bb/C?? Just a rose by another name.

Erm... well... yes... no... not quite.

With a Bbadd9/C the style channels Chord1, Chord2 and Pad play a c note, while with Bb/C they do not. Therefore, on Genos/Tyros/PSR these two chords sound different.

It's nice to have these options, so you can choose which chord sounds best for your song.


Maarten
 

Offline voodoo

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2018, 06:18:22 PM »
AI Fingering is soooooooooooooooooooo cool!

And AI even gets much cooler. I found the following german AI description:

  https://heidruns-musikerseiten.de/media/download/pdf/workshops/style/AI-Fingered_HeidrunDolde.pdf

It has one section about root-less chords for jazz piano playing:

* e-a-d gives C 6/9
* eb-a-d gives F 7/13
* b-f-a gives G 7/9
* f-b-e gives G 7/13

And in all cases, the bass note is recognised correcty although it is not played. And depending on style, the fifth is also played by bass player.

Uli


Yamaha Genos (finally)
Nord Electro 5D
 
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Offline mikf

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2018, 06:49:01 PM »
I just tried it on my keyboard, and the sound difference between a Bb/C and Bbadd9/C is so small its not really noticeable within the context of  playing a normal chord progression. And it would never sound 'wrong' , because its the same chord notes, just an additional higher C on some channels. So I would say that the fingered on bass method does work for all practical purposes.   
Five note LH chords are really not practical on arrangers  - the increased difficulty of 4 note to 5 note LH chord is not 20%, its more like 500%.

Mike   
 

Offline RF

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2018, 07:25:48 PM »
The real advantage if AI fingering is, that you can

* play regular chords with three or four fingers (no matter of inversion)
* and play bass inversion chords with two fingers.

This combination is unique and real great.

Uli
Great is it, but not unique, because Korg has a similar mode called "Expert". But Korg doesn't speak about this mode much.
At least it seems, that Korg and Yamaha are the only brands, offering this intelligent mode.
With Roland or Ketron you had to set "lowest note is bass" and always to care, that the wanted bass note is the lowest.
Kind regards
Ronny F
--------------
Yamaha PSR S 970 - Korg PA 900 and Micro Arranger (had Tyros 1/2),  Bose L1 compact,  HK Audio Lucas nano 300
I had Roland E50,  Technics KN 6000, Bohm Station 2, Wersi MK 1, Roland D 110, Yamaha YS 100
 

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2018, 09:57:23 PM »
And AI even gets much cooler. I found the following german AI description:
https://heidruns-musikerseiten.de/media/download/pdf/workshops/style/AI-Fingered_HeidrunDolde.pdf

I've seen many of Heidrun's videos on YouTube, and she often does them both in German and English. I wonder if she has this PDF in English?
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Offline emmaco

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2018, 10:20:36 PM »
In Fingered on Bass it's impossible to play a Bb/C*. You can only play this chord with AI Fingered!

In fact you can, it's the same thing as AI mode (with c-c#-d-f-Bb).

Voodoo, thanks for the link. They talk about Crash Chord...
You can use these 3 notes to stop arrangement (except drums) and if you add any bass note, the bass also continues to play...

this keyboard amazes me day by day...  :)
 

Offline emmaco

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2018, 10:22:58 PM »
I've seen many of Heidrun's videos on YouTube, and she often does them both in German and English. I wonder if she has this PDF in English?

You can copy text and paste it in https://translate.google.com/m/translate?hl=fr.
 
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Offline maartenb

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2018, 02:59:23 AM »
In fact you can, it's the same thing as AI mode (with c-c#-d-f-Bb).

I stand corrected. This works in both Fingered and Fingered on Bass. I didn't know that. Cool. Thanks.


Maarten
 

Re: Genos AI Fingering Mode Explained
« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2018, 10:03:37 AM »
You can copy text and paste it in https://translate.google.com/m/translate?hl=fr.

Thank you, I've already done that, but I'd love to have the whole thing with the illustrations where they belong.
Check Out My YouTube Channel! https://goo.gl/edbXFS