Author Topic: Odd command "Copy Here"  (Read 3060 times)

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Offline Lee Batchelor

Odd command "Copy Here"
« on: March 17, 2018, 08:45:26 PM »
Has anyone noticed that Yamaha uses a VERY odd command sequence? We are all used to the combination, "Copy and Paste." Yamaha uses "Copy and Copy Here." Is it me, or has Microsoft completely contaminated what's left of my brain? The phrase, "Copy Here" is completely odd to me. I suppose it's what you get used to.

It's the same with the Manuals. They describe some of the ports on the back of the Genos as simply, "Connect to an audio system." The proper way to describe those ports are by their respective routing. For example, "Connect to an external audio system" or "Connect from an external audio system." There's a HUGE difference between things that come out of a keyboard versus things that go into the keyboard. Yamaha makes no distinction when they describe those ports. They are all described the same way!

One golden rule in technical writing is, never violate a person's schemata. There are established norms for operating systems. Yamaha likes to step outside those norms. I will say though, the work flow on the Genos is very smooth compared to the Tyros series! There's so much you can figure out just by looking at the various screens. I'm loving this beast!
Current Gear: Genos, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compacts, 15 inch sub designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44.
 

Offline EileenL

Re: Odd command "Copy Here"
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2018, 09:14:32 PM »
Hello Lee,
  I must admit I also was looking for the paste button but as you say with use you soon feel at home with the new operation. Pleased you are enjoying your Genos.

Offline Lee Batchelor

Re: Odd command "Copy Here"
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2018, 09:22:20 PM »
Yes, Eileen - she's a great keyboard. I just finished re-reading some of the earlier comments about Genos only being marginally better than the T5. I totally disagree. The sounds may be the same, but Yamaha has upgraded the sound processor so that there's far more punch and realism to these voices. The pianos are far superior as well. I'm doing a St. Patty's gig tonight; my first gig with this beast! Bob and I will also be playing tunes from our regular repertoire. I traded my T5 and Nord Electro 5.

Thanks for chiming in!
Current Gear: Genos, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compacts, 15 inch sub designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44.
 

Offline reya

Re: Odd command "Copy Here"
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2018, 10:56:13 PM »
Has anyone noticed that Yamaha uses a VERY odd command sequence? We are all used to the combination, "Copy and Paste." Yamaha uses "Copy and Copy Here." Is it me, or has Microsoft completely contaminated what's left of my brain? The phrase, "Copy Here" is completely odd to me. I suppose it's what you get used to.


I agree

And while we are on the subject ....

What is odd to me as well is the "save" operation.
The Yamaha implementation currently combines in one, both the "save" and "save as" operations probably known to most of us from other devices.
As a result a simple file update operation requires a bit more ticks on Genos than necessary
Let"s compare what it takes to save (update) an existing registration file
Currently
1 Click "File"
2 Click "save"
3 Click "Save here"
4 Click "ok" to confirm name
5 Click "yes" to confirm that the existing file can be replaced

In case there would be  separate "save" and "save as" icons, the save operation would be
1 Click "File"
2 Click "save"
Done !

So that is 2 steps in stead of 5, or 60 % more efficient!

The "save as" operation could have the same steps as the current combined "save" now.
The "File Edit" window has plenty of room for an additional icon like "Save As" so it would physically not be a problem to add it .

Maybe something for a next release ...

Great machine though!!
Genos, PSR S770, Roland PK6, Ketron SD1000
HP Slate 21, Mobilesheets Pro
 

Offline Lee Batchelor

Re: Odd command "Copy Here"
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2018, 11:36:38 PM »
Totally agree, Reya!

I'm in the process of updating all my T5 registrations that were copied into the Genos. It takes 7 steps to save one registration!!!!!

Also, in the manual, they always use the word touch to indicate a touch screen action. This is completely wrong. The correct word is tap.
Current Gear: Genos, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compacts, 15 inch sub designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44.
 

Online Antonio

Re: Odd command "Copy Here"
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2018, 02:28:34 AM »
Totally agree, Reya! The big keyboard is all to be discovered !
Regards
 

Offline markstyles

Re: Odd command "Copy Here"
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2018, 09:22:15 PM »
I absolutely HATE when a manufactor or software writer decides they are going to ignore the usual conventions or terminology used for decades by everyone, just so they can be clever or different..  No it's not that big of an issue.. But suppose car company decided they were going to move the gas, brake, clutch, shifter to a different place just so they could be 'different'.. 

I think it's a sign of ignorance and arrogance on the part of the new generation of software designer..  I've seen this creeping into music software too.. Ignoring decades of a well designed procedure or terminology just to be NEW and different.

 

Offline Lee Batchelor

Re: Odd command "Copy Here"
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2018, 10:02:22 PM »
Well said, Mark...It's a simple OS change. Yamaha could easily go in and change the wording "Copy here" to "Paste."

Yamaha, we want this fixed and stop trying to reinvent the wheel!!
Current Gear: Genos, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compacts, 15 inch sub designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44.
 

Offline Fred Smith

Re: Odd command "Copy Here"
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2018, 10:13:27 PM »
I absolutely HATE when a manufactor or software writer decides they are going to ignore the usual conventions or terminology used for decades by everyone, just so they can be clever or different..  No it's not that big of an issue.. But suppose car company decided they were going to move the gas, brake, clutch, shifter to a different place just so they could be 'different'.. 

I think it's a sign of ignorance and arrogance on the part of the new generation of software designer..  I've seen this creeping into music software too.. Ignoring decades of a well designed procedure or terminology just to be NEW and different.

To be more accurate, this is old, not new, and itís the result of lazy programming.

WordPerfect for DOS never had a Save command, it was always Save As. It took Microsoft to teach them how to implement a Save command in Windows.

Itís not ignorance, it is partly arrogance, but itís mostly laziness.

Fred
Fred Smith,
Saskatoon, SK
Sun Lakes, AZ
Genos, Bose L1 compacts, Finale 2015
Check out my Registration Lessons
 

Offline jwyvern

Re: Odd command "Copy Here"
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2018, 12:33:47 AM »
Well said, Mark...It's a simple OS change. Yamaha could easily go in and change the wording "Copy here" to "Paste."

Yamaha, we want this fixed and stop trying to reinvent the wheel!!

If we are going to plead with Yamaha let's make sure it's to do something practical and useful. They could easily change the name but we would still have the 6 awkward steps to save a registration bank when most of the time only 1, possibly 2 are necessary.
Having a "Tap" screen which does not always register,  for so many operations which force you to move to different screen positions is so disruptive and the operation was almost faster using the old system of buttons on Tyros!
Why do I need to tap File to get to a Save icon?
If I have already tapped Save, why do I need to tap Save Here, it's redundant. In the rare case I want to save somewhere else I'll navigate to it first.
And why am I continually stopped and have to say "I'm Sure". I would really love an option to disable that, especially for saves.

From some of the menu systems provided it still seems that Programmers do not give priority  to streamlining the workflow and are permitted to get away with putting in gratuitous steps which detract from the otherwise professional nature of the keyboard.
John
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 12:41:44 AM by jwyvern »
 
The following users thanked this post: pjd

Offline terryB

Re: Odd command "Copy Here"
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2018, 01:28:58 AM »
I cannot see what is wrong with 'copy here' for keyboard files. I have used 'copy and paste' for years when on a PC with documents and CAD, but this is my keyboard, I'm glad its different.
Cheers
Terry
 

Offline EileenL

Re: Odd command "Copy Here"
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2018, 02:52:47 AM »
Oh dear,
  What shall we pick to moan about next. We have moved to a totally different keyboard now with touch screen that I believe everyone wanted. I didn't but have learned how to use it now and am very happy with it.
   I think we all have better things to do than count the taps we use to operate things. I love the way we can now click the gateway button for voices and do most of our setting up in one place. No selecting the voices and then having to select Mixing console to make other adjustments in various pages so a lot of taps have been saved there.
    I find this keyboard a lot quicker than my Tyros was.

Online StuartR

Re: Odd command "Copy Here"
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2018, 03:17:28 AM »
Oh dear,
  What shall we pick to moan about next. We have moved to a totally different keyboard now with touch screen that I believe everyone wanted. I didn't but have learned how to use it now and am very happy with it.
   I think we all have better things to do than count the taps we use to operate things. I love the way we can now click the gateway button for voices and do most of our setting up in one place. No selecting the voices and then having to select Mixing console to make other adjustments in various pages so a lot of taps have been saved there.
    I find this keyboard a lot quicker than my Tyros was.
Exactly. Can we just move on...
 

Offline Lee Batchelor

Re: Odd command "Copy Here"
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2018, 03:41:42 AM »
The point is, the VAST majority of computer users world wide are used to Paste, not Copy here.

Sorry I even brought it up. Perhaps we need to have all posts screened. It's a valid observation unlike some of the useless pissing and moaning that's gone on in the past on this forum.
Current Gear: Genos, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compacts, 15 inch sub designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44.
 

Offline torben

Re: Odd command "Copy Here"
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2018, 05:15:09 AM »
I completely agree Lee. This is an example of hopeless computer programming. Why make things more complicated than necessary???

Best regards

Torben
Tyros 5 was my choice - now it is Tyros 5 AND Genos !
 

Offline Fred Smith

Re: Odd command "Copy Here"
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2018, 05:22:10 AM »
The point is, the VAST majority of computer users world wide are used to Paste, not Copy here.

Sorry I even brought it up. Perhaps we need to have all posts screened. It's a valid observation unlike some of the useless pissing and moaning that's gone on in the past on this forum.

Why are you sorry you brought it up? It's a valid point, and should be addressed by Yamaha.

Fred
Fred Smith,
Saskatoon, SK
Sun Lakes, AZ
Genos, Bose L1 compacts, Finale 2015
Check out my Registration Lessons
 

Offline Gunnar Jonny

Re: Odd command "Copy Here"
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2018, 06:11:11 AM »
Not any really big issue for me personally, and easy to adapt just as other 'new' things during the learningcurve.  8)
Thinking about it, if cut (ctrl+x) is used, then paste is logical if you move the file, if copy (ctrl+c) is used, copy here is just as logical if place a copy of the file to a new location ...
Cheers & Happy Playing.  :)
GJ
_______________________________________________
"Success is not counted by how high you have climbed
but by how many you brought with you." (Wil Rose)
 

Offline Lee Batchelor

Re: Odd command "Copy Here"
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2018, 06:28:31 AM »
Thanks Fred.

Gunnar, I agree except that people have what's called a "schemata." It refers to the mental process of how we are use to doing things as a group. When I paste content, I don't think Copy Here. I think Paste. The Genos OS is very good, except for some minor unnecessary design elements that were put there just so Yamaha could be different. For example the Save operation that jwyvern described is highly convoluted with way too many steps. That procedure was likely written by the same developer(s). The status quo is often best. Yamaha has already created a unique and excellent keyboard. They don't need to reinvent the wheel.

It's like website developers who, because they know coding inside out, place all kinds of unnecessary crap and bloatware on a website all because "they can." Not once do these people stop and ask, "Should I?"
Current Gear: Genos, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compacts, 15 inch sub designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44.
 

Offline EileenL

Re: Odd command "Copy Here"
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2018, 07:53:34 AM »
I think we sometimes forget that Keyboards are not computers and have operating systems with in there own right. We always have a small learning curve when buying a new model and most expect this.

Offline Lee Batchelor

Re: Odd command "Copy Here"
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2018, 09:37:05 AM »
Eileen, these keyboards are sophisticated computers with a bunch of keys and tone generator attached. For me, they're very much a computer first. Yamaha should stick with conventional GUI references.

Does this mean our scheduled tea is off :)?
Current Gear: Genos, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compacts, 15 inch sub designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44.
 

Offline browzer

Re: Odd command "Copy Here"
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2018, 06:06:53 PM »
I canít believe there are complaints about what is written on a virtual button, as far as I can see they both do the same thing and will take no time to get used to.

For example here is an observations from this thread that may put things into perspective:

But suppose car company decided they were going to move the gas, brake, clutch, shifter to a different place just so they could be 'different'.. 

I think it's a sign of ignorance and arrogance on the part of the new generation of software designer..  I've seen this creeping into music software too.. Ignoring decades of a well designed procedure or terminology just to be NEW and different.

I come from the UK and I don't have a Gas pedal or shifter in my car, I have a accelerator and a gear lever. But I don't have any problem driving when i go to the US because I know how the controls work nomater what they are called.


Let"s compare what it takes to save (update) an existing registration file
Currently
1 Click "File"
2 Click "save"
3 Click "Save here"
4 Click "ok" to confirm name
5 Click "yes" to confirm that the existing file can be replaced

In case there would be  separate "save" and "save as" icons, the save operation would be
1 Click "File"
2 Click "save"
Done !

I'm sure you would still have to retain steps 4 and 5 in your example, when did you last save a file in your computer without being asked if you are sure you want to overwrite?


Perhaps concentrating on the good points of a new system might help you enjoy it more.

Ronnie

Offline EileenL

Re: Odd command "Copy Here"
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2018, 08:33:53 PM »
Here Here Ronnie,
   What is bad about being New and Different anyway. I don't think it is Ignorant or Arrogant and we all know that name calling gets you nowhere.

Offline valimaties

Re: Odd command "Copy Here"
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2018, 08:35:23 PM »
In my opinion (as a programmer), is better to ask user what to do than not to! This because if you mistakenly overwrite a file, you will blow up the keyboard  ;D So it is better a lot of steps!
However, this operation could be improved by global settings "Ask when overwrite file = Yes/No".

In my second opinion (opposite) it is like you are on a car and an obstacle appear, and you want to brake, but the car ask you "You want to brake?"... and you confirm. And after a confirmation another question appear on board: "Are you sure?"   ;D ;D
And buuummmm!!!

Regards,
Vali
______________________________________________
All the best, from Romania

Vali Maties - Genos
 

Offline EileenL

Re: Odd command "Copy Here"
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2018, 08:46:26 PM »
So many people have over written things that have taken them hours to set up in the past. We should welcome the fact that these warnings make us think before completing a save. With the touch screen is is so fast to do.
 
The following users thanked this post: Kaarlo von Freymann

Re: Odd command "Copy Here"
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2018, 04:13:08 AM »
I absolutely HATE when a manufactor or software writer decides they are going to ignore the usual conventions or terminology used for decades by everyone, just so they can be clever or different..  No it's not that big of an issue.. But suppose car company decided they were going to move the gas, brake, clutch, shifter to a different place just so they could be 'different'.. 

I think it's a sign of ignorance and arrogance on the part of the new generation of software designer..  I've seen this creeping into music software too.. Ignoring decades of a well designed procedure or terminology just to be NEW and different.

 

How right you are. It's been creeping on for the last two decades EVERYWHERE. You cant find the basket in the internet shop, you can't find the phone number.......My  18 year old Range Rover  and 28 year old Mercedes 350 SL  have the lever for the blinkers on opposite sides of the steering wheel.  I  still make mistakes sometimes, and it could result in a fatal accident.

Cheers

Kaarlo
The year you were born is unimportant as long as you can still play your keyboard and don't have to change the treble setting
 

Offline pjd

Re: Odd command "Copy Here"
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2018, 11:31:11 PM »
How right you are. It's been creeping on for the last two decades EVERYWHERE. You cant find the basket in the internet shop, you can't find the phone number.......My  18 year old Range Rover  and 28 year old Mercedes 350 SL  have the lever for the blinkers on opposite sides of the steering wheel.  I  still make mistakes sometimes, and it could result in a fatal accident.

Amen, Kaarlo. I've just returned from South Africa and driving on the left side of the road. (I live in the US and drive right.) I drove a Toyota Corolla in SA as well as driving a Corolla at home. Everything made sense with the wheel on the right hand side, etc. EXCEPT Toyota swapped the turn signal and wiper controls on the steering column. Every time I went to signal a direction change, I cleaned the dust from the windscreen. Arrrrggggghhh!

All the best -- pj

Re: Odd command "Copy Here"
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2018, 05:41:13 AM »
I drove a Toyota  Every time I went to signal a direction change, I cleaned the dust from the windscreen. Arrrrggggghhh!

All the best -- pj

Hi pj, EXACTLY that happens to me,  but I have been told, I think it was Gunnar,  GOING SOUTH  in the US means going in the wrong direction, so going to South Africa was a mistake right from the start.  :) 
But as much as I agree in principle developers should use standardized terminology I must say it has not been difficult to get used to the Genos terminology. After a while we do things automatically. It is amusing when I now go to the Tyros 5/6 I still have, I start poking the screen. ;D and am surprised nothing happens.  I still have the YAMAHA 5700 and for that I must find the manual in order to use it. A lot of  posters mention they have other brands besides YAMAHA. If they can gig on different keyboards they must be related to  chess players.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blindfold_chess

Cheers

Kaarlo
The year you were born is unimportant as long as you can still play your keyboard and don't have to change the treble setting