Topic: Do you think a new board called "Genos Bugs" will stark interests to Yamaha?

[valimaties]

I think creating a new board where everyone that encounter a bug or he/she think is a bug will release forum for posting bugs in boards that are created for other demands.

I also want to help admin and moderators to choose as posible they can the creation of this board.

It will be very easy for Yamaha Stuff to find bugs in a single place, not in all forum!

Regards,
Vali

[Bachus]

I don’t think this is necessary, Yamaha will be all over these and the German boards monitoring for posts concerning bugs.

However, when bugs are detected, its also important to communicate directly with Yamaha, when you detect one, because trough direct communication is the only way for Yamaha to reproduce a bug, if yamaha can’t reproduce a bug, they will not be able to squash it.

[valimaties]

I don’t think this is necessary, Yamaha will be all over these and the German boards monitoring for posts concerning bugs.

However, when bugs are detected, its also important to communicate directly with Yamaha, when you detect one, because trough direct communication is the only way for Yamaha to reproduce a bug, if yamaha can’t reproduce a bug, they will not be able to squash it.

Hi Bachus!
I respect your opinion, but I did opened this post with thought to release all those Genos forums by posting bugs in all of it... In my opinion is annoying searching all around for bugs... Personally, I wanna search in one place, not in 10 I think is thoughts of Yamaha, too!

That's the reason for my poll!

Regards,
Vali

[Lee Batchelor]

I agree with Vali. Yamaha does not have the time nor desire to filter through the endless discussions and digressions we always bring to the table about one bug or missing feature. We have all seen several pages of discussions around one small item. I think Yamaha will just ignore those posts. Giving them a single page (list) of requests is the best idea.

[Joe H]

Too often it is operator error or just wishful thinking that something should work differently than it does and is not really a bug.

We have this seen over and over again. I agree with Bachus that Yamaha have to be able to reproduce the problem to confirm it is a bug.

Joe H

[valimaties]

Too often it is operator error or just wishful thinking that something should work differently than it does and is not really a bug.

We have this over and over again. I agree with Bachus that Yamaha have to be able to reproduce the problem to confirm it is a bug.

Joe H

Yes Joe but Yamaha in most of casrs, does not know about problems until USERS tell them. Now, as it is through a forum or by a mail, it is our choise... of course, mail is the first thing in most of cases users think about, but if it is not really a bug, user's though was wrong... in this case, is better post on a forum, to view others opinions about his problem... in this case, as I thought, to not fill other boards with some thinking problems or real problems (bugs), I think is better a single board which covers all types of bugs...
I know I cannot convince everybody on this little thing, but I'm in... I think is quick option for all (even Yamaha) , to see which are problems, if they are indeed in that moment, we, users, we can intervene, and answer to user's complaint about a bug, if it is or not.

Regards,
Vali

[Joe H]

I understand your point of view.  I'm just saying that it is common to report a "bug" here on the forum that is NOT a bug at all.

Regards,
Joe H

[travlin-easy]

Vali, Joe is absolutely correct. I've been on this forum since it first began and I can assure you that the bugs are quickly brought to the attention of Yamaha and just as quickly as possible, a solution is found. The vast majority of the bugs people reported here over the past two decades have been user errors, or people trying to make the keyboard do things it was never intended for. Often, it's just wishful thinking on the part of the new owners and some sincerely believe that if their new keyboard does do that particular task, it must be a bug.

Usually, within a year or less, the manufactures themselves have discovered the problems, which are frequently discovered by their teams of professional demonstrators. The demonstrators put these keyboards through their paces and delve into every possible feature in great depth, which thereby allows them to showcase those features to the consumers. If a bug exists, even a very tiny bug, they usually have encountered it long before anyone else, at which point they take measures to correct the problems, mainly with software updates.

All the best,

Gary

[Gunnar Jonny]

Interesting idea, but ....
If you look around at this forum, you'll se it will never work as intended.  The 'big problem' with a new board like that will be to keep all the discussions (like we see all over the place) away from the genuine reports.
If a new board should be any success, it have to be taken care of by very knowledgeable and fair moderator(s) to pick up the real reports that is confirmed or confirm it as a 'bug' or other kind of error. Then move the part of, or the posts that describes this in a good way into a locked room.
Personally, I also think that if anyone have some good ideas about new or improved features that could be added, it should be possible to collect and place such into the same room.

Btw.
We know Yamaha representatives (and others) peek into forums at regular basis, they have done that for years.
Usually they never take part in discussions, but they  have written posts when they had something serious to adress.
Those of us that have been at the fora during many years knows about it and have seen it's been done.

[Joe W]

Vali had asked me about this several days ago and I raised his request with the moderators. In reviewing their responses, some of which are repeated in this thread, I saw a variety of responses pro and con.  I was going to open the discussion to a wider audience, but this thread is serving that purpose.  I am not against the idea, but would like to hear additional comments, which can be posted in this thread.

[Roger Brenizer]

Joe already knows my thoughts on this subject, but I will reiterate my thoughts here.

While I agree, in theory, this might be a good idea, I doubt the membership would confine their comments about so called bugs to only one board.  We move posts frequently that are posted without regard to the title of the board.

What many of the members reference as bugs, turn out to be end user errors.  This happens in all of the boards, no matter what keyboard a member owns.

If we were to do this for the Genos keyboard, would we eventually be asked to do the same for other keyboards also?

[valimaties]

Vali had asked me about this several days ago and I raised his request with the moderators. In reviewing their responses, some of which are repeated in this thread, I saw a variety of responses pro and con.  I was going to open the discussion to a wider audience, but this thread is serving that purpose.  I am not against the idea, but would like to hear additional comments, which can be posted in this thread.

Hi Joe.
I'm glad you are not sad/angry with me that I opened a thread with my demand, even if I already asked in PM with you.  
My intent is only to release other boards by this unwanted (for a lot of users) "bugs" posts... I think this will make, at least for Genos forum, more clearly for everybody. It can be "Genos - Bugs&Solutions or Wishes", with options to close the thread by owner (or moderators) if the thread has accomplish its request, or to stay opened, if it is really a bug. If someone needs a function, or want that a feature work in other way (maybe better than it is for now created) why to stop "the growth" of a wonderful keyboard?!   
Certainly, for a lot of unwanted mismatch could be workarounds, but is better for everyone to think (at least) that one of Yamaha stuff will look over a wish of someone or for an indeed bug!
I believe that responses of something that is really not a bug, can be made even by users of this forum, because are a lot of them very skilled, professionals, with a lot of experience in their portfolio.

I will not be sad if this board will not be created. I see that some users don't want it, but I also think this is just not reasonable for those who know that this keyboard could be better, knows that it is the revolution in Yamaha arrangers (by new OS liberty of upgrade), and believe that Yamaha could give much new things in it!

Best regards,
Vali

[valimaties]

Joe already knows my thoughts on this subject, but I will reiterate my thoughts here.

While I agree, in theory, this might be a good idea, I doubt the membership would confine their comments about so called bugs to only one board.  We move posts frequently that are posted without regard to the title of the board.

What many of the members reference as bugs, turn out to be end user errors.  This happens in all of the boards, no matter what keyboard a member owns.

If we were to do this for the Genos keyboard, would we eventually be asked to do the same for other keyboards also?

Hi Roger,
I don't know... did someone asked for a thread like this for other keyboard? 
I think it is the only keyboard that have 10 boards, the rest of them has one! And there are a lot of them that are grouped (PSR S970/670/ etc - this was only an example)... It has already 10.. what means one more?!

Best regards,
Vali

[StuartR]

Vali had asked me about this several days ago and I raised his request with the moderators. In reviewing their responses, some of which are repeated in this thread, I saw a variety of responses pro and con.  I was going to open the discussion to a wider audience, but this thread is serving that purpose.  I am not against the idea, but would like to hear additional comments, which can be posted in this thread.

I think a problems/bug reports board could prove useful but I think it will require some diligent moderation to be sure the threads stay on topic and to remove those that present issues that are shown to be misstated or false.

[Gunnar Jonny]

If you i.e. peek into the Korg PA4 forum, you'll see they have this sorted in 3 threads, the last one in the list is 'monitored', and all 3 are what they call 'sticky' at top of the forum.
I dont say it should be copied, but it looks to work great 'over there'. It also looks like it keep such matters more consentrated and not spread in a lots of threads.

- USER WISH-LIST FOR FUTURE OS
- USER WISH-LIST FOR FUTURE ARRANGER MODELS (Hardware)
- (Arranger model) OS Vx.x POTENTIAL BUG REPORT

[mikf]

It puts a lot of additional, maybe unreasonable, load on moderators to check if something is really a bug. I tend towards the view that Yamaha probably already get suffucient feedback from their demonstrators and dealer network and the chances that a bug is uncovered on this forum that isn’t identified by one of those is small. Not zero but very small. Even less that it is a bug that really matters to a significant number of users, and not something buried deep in the system that is hardly ever accessed.
I am also not high on the general idea of wishlists because they get dragged in the direction of the small minority of users that want very esoteric additions and changes. The recent discussion about how the compressor works is a great example. It might be interesting but realistically how many typical users really care?
Mike

[travlin-easy]

As stated by Mike, first you must be able to determine if a BUG is really a bug, which more often than not, is not the case. Then, if it really is a bug, this information must be communicated to Yamaha, which we would be more than happy do do. Most of the so-called bugs I have investigated have not been bugs at all, but instead, operator errors, or wishes by the owner that the keyboard was not designed to do.

All the best,

Gary

[valimaties]

As stated by Mike, first you must be able to determine if a BUG is really a bug, which more often than not, is not the case. Then, if it really is a bug, this information must be communicated to Yamaha, which we would be more than happy do do. Most of the so-called bugs I have investigated have not been bugs at all, but instead, operator errors, or wishes by the owner that the keyboard was not designed to do.

All the best,

Gary

Gary, personally I don't like the expression "the keyboard was not designed to do"... In my opinion a keyboard, especially an arranger, was designated to programming styles and midi, and sing with them. How much deep is the programming in this types of keyboard, it is not our choice, but the owners of project, of the OS, of the firmware (how do you want to call them...). I don't think we should say "this is what it can do and no more else"! Yes, this is what can do, with this build-in functions, with this firmware, but who prevents us to came with ideas, according to hardware that has in it, according to interface, according to buttons layout?! If we want a limited keyboard, because we don't want to think that Yamaha can implement new functions and new screens and new functionalities on the hardware we bought, then I think that we are those who are limited, not the keyboard!!!

The 1.20 firmware is a big step on Yamaha's vision about updating their keyboards -arrangers. It has the biggest number of fixes and changes I've saw on this kind of keyboard And this is a good thing for us, IMO.

Best regards,
Vali

[metcam]

I agree with Vali to.

In many cases people report bug even if is NOT and members of this forum help them to solve problems but sometimes is bug or a little problems and Yamaha need to know about that.

So my personal tough : Yes.

And again Thank to Yamaha for 1.20 update.


Regards.

[mikf]

In my opinion a keyboard, especially an arranger, was designated to programming styles and midi, and sing with them. How much deep is the programming in this types of keyboard, it is not our choice, but the owners of project, of the OS, of the firmware (how do you want to call them...). I don't think we should say "this is what it can do and no more else"! Yes, this is what can do, with this build-in functions, with this firmware, but who prevents us to came with ideas, according to hardware that has in it, according to interface, according to buttons layout?! If we want a limited keyboard, because we don't want to think that Yamaha can implement new functions and new screens and new functionalities on the hardware we bought, then I think that we are those who are limited, not the keyboard!!!

Vali - You remaking Gary's point for him! What you are describing is a 'wish' not a bug. This is exactly what Gary is saying would happen, it would not be a list of bugs but a list of wishes. Maybe a wish list is appropriate -although I would not agree- but its not what was suggested by the title of this thread.
If you are now changing tack and suggesting a 'wish' list instead of a 'bug' list I detailed why I would not agree with a wish list in my previous post. It would inevitably end up as a list from a tiny proportion of untypical users who want to dig deeper and deeper into the operating system. This would not be a true reflection of what the typical buyer wants, and I personally believe that for this reason Yamaha would be wise enough to largely ignore it.
Mike

[valimaties]

Vali - You remaking Gary's point for him! What you are describing is a 'wish' not a bug. This is exactly what Gary is saying would happen, it would not be a list of bugs but a list of wishes. Maybe a wish list is appropriate -although I would not agree- but its not what was suggested by the title of this thread.
If you are now changing tack and suggesting a 'wish' list instead of a 'bug' list I detailed why I would not agree with a wish list in my previous post. It would inevitably end up as a list from a tiny proportion of untypical users who want to dig deeper and deeper into the operating system. This would not be a true reflection of what the typical buyer wants, and I personally believe that for this reason Yamaha would be wise enough to largely ignore it.
Mike

Hi Mike... You didn't quote all my post, and what you have quoted is exactly the explanation to the first phrase 

Wishes are wishes, bugs are bugs....
I don't tangle wishes with bugs... Bugs definitely will be encounter on what the keyboard already has and don't do (I don't know, have to save some parameters and on't do it, or have to load a file and don't do it)... A wish is to "save those parameters" I spoke above in some way, or to some device, or to load more files than it is build for

And definitely, I didn't say "bug" in my post there...

I believe that Yamaha's engineers are helped a lot by users feedbacks, and their keyboards are better and better because of our wishes. Maybe the current model does not encapsulate all our wishes, after all they have to survive on the market, and have t o build new models, but certainly, with most of our wishes

"Wishes" is another subject...

Regards,
Vali

[pjd]

It would inevitably end up as a list from a tiny proportion of untypical users who want to dig deeper and deeper into the operating system. This would not be a true reflection of what the typical buyer wants, and I personally believe that for this reason Yamaha would be wise enough to largely ignore it.

Hi Mike --

I kindly disagree. The problem is with the notion of "typical user" vs. "untypical user." Who's to say? We don't have reliable statistics as to typical vs. untypical -- our opinions are (usually) anecdotal. That's why I favor an approach of constructive, respectful, free speech.

Plus, I'm always surprised at the broad range of usage scenarios, personal workflows, etc. that folks post here. What is unimportant to one, may be very important to many others. I'm not prescient enough to say (or dictate) "what's what."

All the best to ya -- pj

[Ed B]

In answer to the above question. No.
As a provider of a device, service, network I would be interested in the experience of my clients and did my design meet the user needs and expectations that I intended it to meet.
That would be a much broader look at the results than "bugs". That is not to suggest that if there is faulty operation I would not want to know about it, I would want this directly, and would take steps based on severity  and magnitude to correct it.
Yamaha has in the past certainly followed this approach.
Regards
Ed B

[metcam]

Vali -  What you are describing is a 'wish' not a bug.

So I really thing we need to have separate boards: One for bugs  and one for wishes. In that case will be easier for Yamaha and members to read.
Yamaha read treads on this forum and personally I think that help them a lot in future.

I will give my example:
Since PSR-9000 18 years ago I started to email Yamaha and ask them about MONO-LEGATO and call them and again email them for Tyros2 and call them and....ETC.
So I started Tread here and after more members was involved YAMAHA did make MONO-LEGATO.
Many of members was said they do not need this ...and made some negative comments but goes what: Yamaha finally did MONO-LEGATO.
That why I think is very important to have treads like this and somebody like or not at end Yamaha will make decision ....

Regards

[Spirit of the old South]

If you i.e. peek into the Korg PA4 forum, you'll see they have this sorted in 3 threads, the last one in the list is 'monitored', and all 3 are what they call 'sticky' at top of the forum.
I dont say it should be copied, but it looks to work great 'over there'. It also looks like it keep such matters more consentrated and not spread in a lots of threads.

- USER WISH-LIST FOR FUTURE OS
- USER WISH-LIST FOR FUTURE ARRANGER MODELS (Hardware)
- (Arranger model) OS Vx.x POTENTIAL BUG REPORT

I really like this idea