Author Topic: PSR-E463 and PSR-EW410  (Read 6045 times)

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Offline pjd

PSR-E463 and PSR-EW410
« on: January 25, 2018, 07:15:32 PM »
Yamaha announced the E463 and EW410 pair.

Quoting the Yamaha press release:

"The 76-key PSR-EW410 is the new flagship of the popular PSR-E series and offers the most advanced feature set, including compatibility with the optional Yamaha KS-SW100 subwoofer. The PSR-E463 offers most of the same features with 61 keys, and sells for a lower price.

The new keyboards provide many significant improvements compared to previous models. The fully playable Groove Creator function lets users add intros, section changes and musical climaxes to Grooves like a DJ controlling electronic dance music (EDM). The number of Groove Patterns has been increased to 35, including 10 new ones.

The new Quick Sampling feature makes it possible to capture audio samples to USB or internal memory so you can play them on the keys. The assignable Live Control Knobs let users quickly adjust sounds on the fly."

Oh, there will be grousing in the high-rent district as Quick Sampling and Groove Creator first appear in entry-level models. Young people are more likely to have cash for the EW410 and E463 than a Genos.  ;)

I'll bet they will enjoy the new subwoofer, too. Maybe not their downstairs neighbors.  :D

All the best -- pj

MSRPs -- EW410 $599 USD, E463 $479, KS-SW100 $199

Will ship in May 2018
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 07:30:10 PM by pjd »
 

Offline pquenin

Re: PSR-E463 and PSR-EW410
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2018, 08:45:15 PM »
Yes, I have just seen these new models on Yamaha Europe site, I can't believe it because I have just bought a PSR-E453 !
The E463 is the same keyboard with few new features, appart these that look interesting :
- Quick Sampling function - 5 sample (1 Key Follow type + 4 One shot/Loop type) Max 9.6 sec/sample
- USB Audio Recorder - 80 minutes. (.wav)
But I got mine for 240€, I think the new model will be around 350€...

The Casio CTK-4400 that is way cheaper has the sampling feature, and all the samples can be "follow type" or "one shot", so a bit better than the yamaha...
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 09:00:36 PM by pquenin »
Yamaha PSR-S670
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: PSR-E463 and PSR-EW410
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2018, 05:15:42 AM »
It looks like there are no changes in the voices-- at least not as far as the number of voices.

"Groove Creator" seems to be the new name for the "DJ Patterns" of the PSR-E433/443/453, possibly with changes to how they work (there are still 5 sections, but now they're referred to as 4 main sections plus 1 "musical climax")-- and there are 10 more of them:

PSR-E433 -- 10 DJ patterns x 5 sections
PSR-E443 -- 20 DJ patterns x 5 sections
PSR-E453 -- 25 DJ patterns x 5 sections
PSR-E463 -- 35 grooves x 5 sections

There's now an additional button related to the Live Control Knobs, which lets you toggle the first 3 pair of assignments (Cutoff/Resonance, Reverb/Chorus, and DSP Parameter A/B) between affecting the right voices (Main/Dual) or affecting the auto accompaniment.

It will be interesting to read up on all of the new or updated features once the manuals are posted.
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710
 

Re: PSR-E463 and PSR-EW410
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2018, 06:22:22 AM »
It seems like they changed the LCD panel, website reflects it in a new bright white pattern. It seems like the kids are enjoying these Groove pattern functions, so they added a few more. But I am still eager to know about this USB audio recorder, is it same as the inbuilt midi interface, can we call it a major addition to the board ?
Anupam
Yamaha PSR-E453, Casio SA 21
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: PSR-E463 and PSR-EW410
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2018, 08:54:29 AM »
I also noticed the change in the LCD screen color. It's interesting that the lower-numbered models (PSR-E3xx and PSR-E2xx) seem to have orange backlighting for the LCD screen, rather than the blue backlighting that the PSR-E4xx models have had. I think I remember some people complaining about having trouble seeing the LCD screens on the PSR-E4xx models clearly and wanting to be able to adjust the contrast-- which I doubt will happen, but who knows-- so maybe the move to a white(?) backlighting is meant to help increase the contrast?

I think the USB audio recorder is a good move, and I assume it will work similarly to the one on the DGX-660, but we'll have to wait until the manuals come out.

In some ways I'm sorry that I just ordered the PSR-EW400 (which should be delivered sometime Friday), but I couldn't resist the sale price (about $10 less than the PSR-E453!), and I expect the PSR-EW410 will be priced at around $399 in the US marketplace as the PSR-EW400 was before it was discounted. Plus, the new models won't be available for a few more months, and there don't seem to be any new voices or DSP effects. So I'm not unhappy with my purchase, just very curious to know more about the new features of the PSR-EW410. :)
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710
 

Offline SciNote

Re: PSR-E463 and PSR-EW410
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2018, 09:01:32 AM »
Well, dang!  That came up fast!  With the E453, as I recall, we first found out about it through a video posted by a third party.  The video just panned around the top of the keyboard while a demo tune was playing.  Now, with the E463, it's already showing up on Yamaha's website!  Here's a link to some specs from the U.S. Yamaha site...

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/keyboards/portable_keyboards/psr-e463/specs.html#product-tabs

So, yes, there is now the sampling feature, and there is now the USB audio recording directly to a flash drive.  These are interesting features.  The sampling looks like it will be CD quality (16-bit stereo, 44.1 kHz), so it should sound better than the old Casio SK-1!  Also, the specs imply that the accompaniment track of the 6-track multi-track sequencer can now be a DJ/Groove pattern, not just a style.

With the live control knobs, it does look like the filter, reverb/chorus, and DSP can be selected to apply to either the main keyboard or the background (which I assume means the style).  But can it be applied to both simultaneously?  For example, can you set the filter to modify the main and dual voices, then select it to modify the style, while still saving the parameters you set for the main and dual voices?  And then, can you save it all to a registration?  The ability to apply reverb, chorus, and DSP to a style or drum track sounds nice, if I understand this function correctly.

But look at what has not changed.  The general number of voices, as Michael said.  The 48 note polyphony.  The number of registrations -- still at 8 banks of 4.  The number of chorus and DSP types, though there are now 12 reverb types instead of 10.  It looks like there will still only be one button to do a fill in and change from A to B or B to A parts of a style.  The sequencer still has about 19000 notes, though that has never been a problem for me.  The number of expansion styles also stays the same, at 10.  Still 26 types of harmony.  And still 150 types of arpeggio, though it appears there will be more flexibility in how they can be used.

So, what remains to be seen... Will the DSP functions be better integrated to the registrations?  With the E453, the registrations can save the DSP type and knob values, but not the on/off status of the DSP feature.  The only way around this (that I know of) is a "work-around" where you use the low-pass-filter DSP effect, with the effect set to allow maximum frequencies pass-through, for registrations where you don't want any noticeable DSP effect.  This way, when you use the keyboard, you turn on the DSP effect, and it will work for registrations where you want it, but not produce any noticeable effect for registrations where you don't want it.  Will the E463 finally save the on/off status of the DSP feature in a registration?  And will the Leslie/rotary speaker effect be better?

Will the sustain pedal finally have the ability to sustain the main and split parts of the keyboard?  Will the sequencer have any editing capabilities?  Based on what I've seen so far, I doubt it, but we'll see!

EDIT:

I don't know how long this link will be active, but this shows a more detailed close-up of the panel (click on the small picture of the keyboard to expand it)...

https://www.kraftmusic.com/yamaha-psr-e463-portable-keyboard.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=merchant&utm_campaign=yam-psre463&gclid=EAIaIQobChMItaqR9KX12AIVgjVpCh0CEQ0rEAYYASABEgLFB_D_BwE
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 09:31:27 AM by SciNote »
Bob
Yamaha PSR-E433
Yamaha PSR-520
 

Re: PSR-E463 and PSR-EW410
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2018, 01:27:56 PM »
@Bob
Right now only the PSR-I455 in PSR E-series lineup, has this "sostenuto" function, where the pedal affects the Split Voice on the keyboard. And of course we can tweak the release value of main voice at the same time, to make both the parts sustained.
IMO the PSR-E453/EW400 were a major upgrade to the E4xx series lineup, but E-463/EW410 are a small upgrade, and owners of E453/EW400 keyboards would not feel discontented or outdated with the launch of these models.
But yes, if the LCD panel has been changed, then it is a good step, I have observed visibility issues in outdoors, where there is direct sunlight on the screen.
Anupam
Yamaha PSR-E453, Casio SA 21
 

Offline SciNote

Re: PSR-E463 and PSR-EW410
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2018, 05:19:21 PM »
Yes, I have just seen these new models on Yamaha Europe site, I can't believe it because I have just bought a PSR-E453 !
The E463 is the same keyboard with few new features, appart these that look interesting :
- Quick Sampling function - 5 sample (1 Key Follow type + 4 One shot/Loop type) Max 9.6 sec/sample
- USB Audio Recorder - 80 minutes. (.wav)
But I got mine for 240, I think the new model will be around 350...

The Casio CTK-4400 that is way cheaper has the sampling feature, and all the samples can be "follow type" or "one shot", so a bit better than the yamaha...

Are you sure about that CTK-4400?  I checked out the Casio site and looked at the info for that model, and I didn't see anything about a sampling feature.  They do have a new model, the CTX-700, which they're describing as having the sound of a keyboard costing hundreds, or even thousands, of dollars more.  The specs on it seem pretty good, but it looks like mainly a preset instrument.  It has chorus and reverb selections, as well as split/layering and octave shifting, but there is no mention of filter or envelope control, and the specs indicate that any DSP or delay effects are preset within an individual sound.  A Google search turned up a price of about $175, so that's sounds good.

When I look at the picture of the E463, it looks like Yamaha used essentially the same "shell" as the E453, based on where all of the buttons and controls are placed.  But they moved some of them.  For example, what was the DSP control on the E453 is now the live-control knob "target" selector button, determining whether certain control knob features will affect the main/dual voices, or the background.  And the DSP button is now moved to the cluster of buttons to the left of the display.  Yamaha also did this with the E433 and E443 -- same basic shell, just slightly different layout of the functions, and a different color for the case.

I'm surprised so much of this info is available and even on Yamaha's website if the keyboard won't start shipping for four months yet.
Bob
Yamaha PSR-E433
Yamaha PSR-520
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: PSR-E463 and PSR-EW410
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2018, 09:48:14 PM »
Also, the specs imply that the accompaniment track of the 6-track multi-track sequencer can now be a DJ/Groove pattern, not just a style.

That's been possible ever since patterns were introduced on the PSR-E433. The problem is that you can't convert your recording from a User Song to a Standard MIDI File (SMF) if you've recorded a pattern to the accompaniment track. (By the way, I approve of the switch in terminology. "Accompaniment." "Backing." I know which one is easier for me to say!)

With the live control knobs, it does look like the filter, reverb/chorus, and DSP can be selected to apply to either the main keyboard or the background (which I assume means the style).  But can it be applied to both simultaneously?  For example, can you set the filter to modify the main and dual voices, then select it to modify the style, while still saving the parameters you set for the main and dual voices?  And then, can you save it all to a registration?  The ability to apply reverb, chorus, and DSP to a style or drum track sounds nice, if I understand this function correctly.

You should be able to modify everything at the same time by switching functions-- but only the selected functions can be controlled live with the knobs. It's been that way simce the PSR-E403, except that up until now only the cutoff and resonance could be modified for the accompaniment. Since we've never been able to save the cutoff and resonance for the accompaniment in the registrations, I'm guessing this hasn't changed, but we'll have to wait and see. Being able to add effects to the accompaniment sounds nice in theory-- and works well when modifying the cutoff/resonance while a pattern is playing-- but if we have no way to set the parameters (volume, panning, etc.) for each individual track of the accompaniment, then I'm not sure I see the value in saving the knob settings for the accompaniment, since it would appear to be more for live performance situations anyway.

there are now 12 reverb types instead of 10.

I missed that! But it's possible that the "two additional" reverb types have been there all along, since XGlite has always supported a certain number of reverb types and chorus types. However, some of them haven't been selectable through the Function menu and could only be accessed either via MIDI SysEx (using the values listed in the MIDI Reference) or by choosing a Music Database entry that used one of them (in which case the Function menu would display "---" instead of a number). So they may have simply given us easier access to two reverb types that were always there.

So, what remains to be seen... Will the DSP functions be better integrated to the registrations?  With the E453, the registrations can save the DSP type and knob values, but not the on/off status of the DSP feature.

Now that I finally bought a PSR-EW400, I plan to investigate how that works.
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710
 

Offline pquenin

Re: PSR-E463 and PSR-EW410
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2018, 03:47:56 PM »
for the new reverb types, I think they have aligned the E463 with the E363 that have these news reverbs...
Yamaha PSR-S670
 

Re: PSR-E463 and PSR-EW410
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2018, 05:22:59 PM »
for the new reverb types, I think they have aligned the E463 with the E363 that have these news reverbs...
There is only one addition to reverb types in E363 - Cathedral, when compared to E453, rest of them are anyhow present on the E453, but one extra mid range parameter has been included for all sub-categories, viz. Room, Hall, Stage and Plate.
Anupam
Yamaha PSR-E453, Casio SA 21
 

Offline pquenin

Re: PSR-E463 and PSR-EW410
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2018, 06:24:39 PM »
Are you sure about that CTK-4400?  I checked out the Casio site and looked at the info for that model, and I didn't see anything about a sampling feature.

It's in the manual and you can easyly find videos on Youtube demonstrating this feature...
Yamaha PSR-S670
 

Offline arvacon

Re: PSR-E463 and PSR-EW410
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2018, 03:16:01 PM »
Two things might be happening..

1: Yamaha made the PSR-E453 so perfect, that they can't think anything better than this, or..
2: They are out of ideas because they fired the designer last year, so they just did some small changes to the existing model to win some time until they will hire a new guy..  :P

Seriously, the new model is nothing more than the same instrument with the e453, just they made some minor changes at the software and they changed also the screen light to white. They didn't bother to change even one key's position, everything is exactly as at the 453. Come'on Yamaha, you could do it better! At least why the h*ll they didn't add the live! piano voice at this one??

The only noticeable updates are the sampling function and the audio recording, but these doesn't worth the increased price and the waiting for this model.
I would suggest that if someone wants to buy a keyboard in this range, in the next few months it will be a good time to buy the 453, as the price will drop more.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2018, 03:18:43 PM by arvacon »
 

Offline SciNote

Re: PSR-E463 and PSR-EW410
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2018, 04:10:21 PM »
While you are probably correct in stating that the price of the E453 will likely drop, if we're just looking at current prices, the E463 looks like it will be the same price as the E453, based on pre-order prices posted at several music store websites.

I also agree that it looks like Yamaha is using the exact same shell for this keyboard, as all of the buttons appear to be in the same place, though some of their functions have moved.  However, the same thing happened when the E443 replaced the E433 -- essentially the same shell, just a different color and some function buttons moved a bit.

If I was deciding between an E453 and an E463, I do believe that the sampling feature and added flexibility with the effects knobs (allowing the reverb, chorus, and DSP to affect the style as well as the main/dual voices) make it worthwhile, unless the E453 is majorly discounted.

I will reserve my final opinion until I see it in person.  I'm holding out some hope that the on/off status of the DSP will now be stored in a registration and that the sustain pedal will be able to affect the split side of the keyboard, as well as the main/dual side, though I realize the chances are kind of low.
Bob
Yamaha PSR-E433
Yamaha PSR-520
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: PSR-E463 and PSR-EW410
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2018, 04:53:58 PM »
If you look at any given keyboard series from Yamaha-- PS, PSS, PSR, PSR-E, PSR-S, Tyros, etc.-- and list the specific features from one model to the next in any given line, you can see that it's normal for the changes from model to model to alternate between only a few changes and quite a number of changes.

It's unusual for there to be many changes in one model followed by many additional changes in the very next model; whereas it's not unusual for there to be only a few changes in one model followed by only a few additional changes in the next model.

This is why owners of much more expensive keyboards, such as the Tyros, generally don't replace their old Tyros as soon as the next model comes out, but tend to skip a model or two before buying a newer replacement, based on how many changes there are between their older model and the one they're considering.

As for the reverb types on the PSR-E363, I hadn't noticed the "Cathedral" type. Here's how the reverb types on the PSR-E363/PSR-EW300/YPT-360 correlate with those on the PSR-E453/PSR-EW400:

No. 01 - Hall 1    - MSB 001, LSB 00 = No. 01 - Hall 1
No. 02 - Hall 2    - MSB 001, LSB 16 = No. 02 - Hall 2
No. 03 - Hall 3    - MSB 001, LSB 17 = No. 03 - Hall 3
No. 04 - Hall 4    - MSB 001, LSB 01 = * not available *
No. 05 - Cathedral - MSB 001, LSB 23 = * not available *
No. 06 - Room 1    - MSB 002, LSB 17 = No. 04 - Room 1
No. 07 - Room 2    - MSB 002, LSB 19 = No. 05 - Room 2
No. 08 - Room 3    - MSB 002, LSB 07 = * not available *
No. 09 - Stage 1   - MSB 003, LSB 16 = No. 06 - Stage 1
No. 10 - Stage 2   - MSB 003, LSB 17 = No. 07 - Stage 2
No. 11 - Plate 1   - MSB 004, LSB 16 = No. 08 - Plate 1
No. 12 - Plate 2   - MSB 004, LSB 17 = No. 09 - Plate 2
No. 13 - Off       - MSB 000, LSB 00 = No. 10 - Off
No. -- - Room      - MSB 002, LSB 00 = No. -- - Room
No. -- - Stage     - MSB 003, LSB 00 = No. -- - Stage
No. -- - Plate     - MSB 004, LSB 00 = No. -- - Plate

The MSB and LSB values are from the MIDI Reference for each model.

Certain combinations have reverb types listed for them but don't have any corresponding reverb types that can be selected in the Function menu, although some of them might be used in certain Music Database entries. If you set the keyboard to one of those reverb types-- either via MIDI SysEx messages or by choosing certain Music Database entries-- the panel will display the Reverb Type number as "--" in the Function menu. These are the last three listed above.

It turns out that the PSR-E363 has three new reverb types-- Hall 4, Cathedral, and Room 3! The MSB and LSB combinations for these three new reverb types do not exist at all on the PSR-E453; at least, they have nothing listed for them in the MIDI Reference. Presumably these new reverb types are on the PSR-E463. :)
« Last Edit: February 05, 2018, 04:56:02 PM by SeaGtGruff »
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: PSR-E463 and PSR-EW410
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2018, 05:05:45 PM »
While you are probably correct in stating that the price of the E453 will likely drop, if we're just looking at current prices, the E463 looks like it will be the same price as the E453, based on pre-order prices posted at several music store websites.

Based on the fact that the price of the PSR-EW400 has been discounted by $100, whereas the price of the PSR-E453 hasn't changed, I'll go out on a limb and guess that the PSR-E453 isn't going to be discounted-- or if it does get discounted, it won't be by much. I'm not sure why the PSR-EW400 has been discounted while the PSR-E453 has not, but it might be that following its introduction two years ago the PSR-E453 has been selling well, whereas the PSR-EW400 has not-- maybe due to its higher price tag.
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710
 

Re: PSR-E463 and PSR-EW410
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2018, 09:04:37 PM »
I am actually not disappointed by the features placed in new model, but by the fact that the rival companies released comparatively newer models from the scratch.
For ex -
1. Roland E-X20 which has got acoustic pianos, that sound great, plus the GO-Keys and Go-Piano are already present for Juno and XP lovers,

2. and recently Casio released new CTX models, 700/3000/5000 with new sound sampling technology which hits the final nail in the coffin, :'(
while Yamaha still retains the vintage samples, especially CTX 5000 and E-X20 have got many features to shake the market of E463. I think the Line out port should have been included in PSR E463 to counter atleast with the rivals.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2018, 09:11:22 PM by AnupamEnosh »
Anupam
Yamaha PSR-E453, Casio SA 21
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: PSR-E463 and PSR-EW410
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2018, 06:04:28 PM »
After reviewing a photograph of the right side of the panel on the PSR-E463, it appears that the new styles and "grooves" are in the following categories:

15 new styles:
- 2 new "8 Beat" styles
- 1 new "16 Beat" style
- 1 new "Ballad" style
- 1 new "Dance" style
- 5 new "Latin" styles
- 5 new "World" styles

10 new "groove" patterns:
- 2 new "Dance Pop" patterns
- 1 new "House" pattern
- 7 new "World" patterns (which is a new category)

As for the 3 new reverb types, I assume they're the same ones that were added to the PSR-E363.
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710
 

Offline SciNote

Re: PSR-E463 and PSR-EW410
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2018, 05:35:31 PM »
I am actually not disappointed by the features placed in new model, but by the fact that the rival companies released comparatively newer models from the scratch.
For ex -
1. Roland E-X20 which has got acoustic pianos, that sound great, plus the GO-Keys and Go-Piano are already present for Juno and XP lovers,

2. and recently Casio released new CTX models, 700/3000/5000 with new sound sampling technology which hits the final nail in the coffin, :'(
while Yamaha still retains the vintage samples, especially CTX 5000 and E-X20 have got many features to shake the market of E463. I think the Line out port should have been included in PSR E463 to counter atleast with the rivals.

I've been doing some research on these new Casio CTX's, and they are quite interesting.  Check out this video demonstrating the lowest of them -- the CTX-700 which only costs about $175 -- and check out what's going on with that synth sound at about 6:37...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlfXsXuKXms

Do you hear that??? PORTAMENTO! On a $175 keyboard!  C'mon, Yamaha, it's time to step up!

Granted, this looks pretty much like a preset instrument, with only limited ability to modify the sounds.  And I imagine that this portamento effect is likely just "hard-wired" into certain sounds.  But the higher end versions are advertised as having rhythm editors and tone editors.

I'm not about to trade my PSR-E433 for a Casio yet, but am curious to see these keyboards in person and do some comparisons.
Bob
Yamaha PSR-E433
Yamaha PSR-520
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: PSR-E463 and PSR-EW410
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2018, 06:23:45 PM »
Do you hear that??? PORTAMENTO!

Yes, it has Portamento, plus other sound parameters not available on the PSR-E models. :)

However, I don't think these parameters are accessible on the keyboard itself-- meaning via the buttons, knobs, function menu, etc. They can be accessed via MIDI CC messages, as listed in the MIDI Implementation Chart in the User Guide (which is available at Casio's site), but you can't edit these advanced sound parameters and save them to a registration or user tone. I'm guessing that at least one of the higher CT-X models will have those capabilities, since that's how it is in the CTK line-- the lower models don't have user tones, but the higher models do.

So it looks like the CT-X700 could make an interesting and fairly inexpensive sound module if you were to use a controller and/or software with it to modify the various sound parameters.

Note that Yamaha's keyboards have had these sorts of features since XG. The problem with the PSR-E models is that they are only XGlite compatible, and XGlite doesn't include all of XG's features. I'm sure Yamaha could make the PSR-E models XG compatible if they wanted to, but this would no doubt raise the cost-- and it might even entail other changes, such as replacing the dedicated LCD display with a dot-addressable screen, operating system changes, etc. You might end up with something like the PSR-S670, costing about the same as the PSR-S670.

I know what you mean, though-- if Casio can include all of these (hidden?) parameters on a <$200 keyboard, why can't Yamaha? But in my opinion, if you look carefully at the panel and controls of the CT-X700 they look a bit cheap-- not as nice as those on the PSR-E models. Of course, it's hard to tell from a video, so I'll need to actually put my hands on one in a store before I pass judgment. But my point is that Casio may have had to make certain decisions about the design and quality of the panel controls and display on the CT-X700 in order to keep its price down. And to be fair, Yamaha has to do the same type of juggling act with balancing market cost against features and quality.

Anyway, I'm very interesting in getting my hands on a CT-X700, even if I am an avowed "Yamahaian." :)
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710
 

Re: PSR-E463 and PSR-EW410
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2018, 01:24:58 AM »
I've been doing some research on these new Casio CTX's, and they are quite interesting.  Check out this video demonstrating the lowest of them -- the CTX-700 which only costs about $175 -- and check out what's going on with that synth sound at about 6:37...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlfXsXuKXms

Do you hear that??? PORTAMENTO! On a $175 keyboard!  C'mon, Yamaha, it's time to step up!

Granted, this looks pretty much like a preset instrument, with only limited ability to modify the sounds.  And I imagine that this portamento effect is likely just "hard-wired" into certain sounds.  But the higher end versions are advertised as having rhythm editors and tone editors.

I'm not about to trade my PSR-E433 for a Casio yet, but am curious to see these keyboards in person and do some comparisons.
I can feel the absence of a wider range of Acoustic and Electric Piano patches on PSR-E series models. Casio has improved a lot this time.
Anupam
Yamaha PSR-E453, Casio SA 21
 

Offline SciNote

Re: PSR-E463 and PSR-EW410
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2018, 08:24:33 AM »
Yes, it has Portamento, plus other sound parameters not available on the PSR-E models. :)

However, I don't think these parameters are accessible on the keyboard itself-- meaning via the buttons, knobs, function menu, etc. They can be accessed via MIDI CC messages, as listed in the MIDI Implementation Chart in the User Guide (which is available at Casio's site), but you can't edit these advanced sound parameters and save them to a registration or user tone. I'm guessing that at least one of the higher CT-X models will have those capabilities, since that's how it is in the CTK line-- the lower models don't have user tones, but the higher models do.

So it looks like the CT-X700 could make an interesting and fairly inexpensive sound module if you were to use a controller and/or software with it to modify the various sound parameters.

Note that Yamaha's keyboards have had these sorts of features since XG. The problem with the PSR-E models is that they are only XGlite compatible, and XGlite doesn't include all of XG's features. I'm sure Yamaha could make the PSR-E models XG compatible if they wanted to, but this would no doubt raise the cost-- and it might even entail other changes, such as replacing the dedicated LCD display with a dot-addressable screen, operating system changes, etc. You might end up with something like the PSR-S670, costing about the same as the PSR-S670.

I know what you mean, though-- if Casio can include all of these (hidden?) parameters on a <$200 keyboard, why can't Yamaha? But in my opinion, if you look carefully at the panel and controls of the CT-X700 they look a bit cheap-- not as nice as those on the PSR-E models. Of course, it's hard to tell from a video, so I'll need to actually put my hands on one in a store before I pass judgment. But my point is that Casio may have had to make certain decisions about the design and quality of the panel controls and display on the CT-X700 in order to keep its price down. And to be fair, Yamaha has to do the same type of juggling act with balancing market cost against features and quality.

Anyway, I'm very interesting in getting my hands on a CT-X700, even if I am an avowed "Yamahaian." :)

Yep!  That's what I meant when I said that this is probably essentially a "preset" instrument, with the portamento effect likely just "hard-wired" into certain sounds.  For this keyboard, I doubt that there is any way to adjust the filter cut-off, resonance, envelope and other synth-type effects and store them into presets, though from what I've read, it does have 8 banks of 4 registrations, like the E400-series.  Perhaps the registrations are just for saving combinations of main/dual/split voices, volume levels, octaves, and possibly reverb and chorus settings.

But this keyboard is also about $100 US less than the street price of the E453 and E463, so as more information, including pricing information becomes available on the CTX-3000 and 5000, it will be interesting to see how they compare.

Additionally, you may very well be correct about the quality of the construction of the keyboard.  When I bought my E433, I compared it to Casio's CTK-7000 (now replaced by the CTK-7200) and found the Yamaha's keyboard feel to be lightyears superior (and while the feel of the E443 and E453 may not be quite as good as the E433, those keyboards still feel much better than the Casio's that I've seen, in my opinion) as well as the overall quality of the sound, even though the Casio has more sound-editing options, like DSP effects.  When I've checked out the key-feel of some newer Casio's, I've found that they've built in some resistance to the keys, which gives it a kind of semi-weighted feel, but I still prefer the synth action of the E433.  We'll see how these new models compare as they are released.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 08:26:56 AM by SciNote »
Bob
Yamaha PSR-E433
Yamaha PSR-520
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: PSR-E463 and PSR-EW410
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2018, 10:19:16 AM »
Registrations store only parameters that can be set on the keyboard, so they won't include parameters that can be set only via MIDI.

Here's a quick comparison of some of the differences in the MIDI capabilities as far as which types of messages will be responded to:

Channel Aftertouch -- CT-X700: YES -- PSR-EW400: NO
Bank Select LSB (CC#32) -- CT-X700: NO -- PSR-EW400: YES
Portamento Time (CC#5) -- CT-X700: YES -- PSR-EW400: NO
Portamento Switch (CC#65) -- CT-X700: YES -- PSR-EW400: NO
Sostenuto (CC#66) -- CT-X700: YES -- PSR-EW400: NO
Soft Pedal (CC#67) -- CT-X700: YES -- PSR-EW400: NO
Decay Time (CC#75) -- CT-X700: YES -- PSR-EW400: NO
Vibrato Rate (CC#76) -- CT-X700: YES -- PSR-EW400: NO
Vibrato Depth (CC#77) -- CT-X700: YES -- PSR-EW400: NO
Vibrato Delay (CC#78) -- CT-X700: YES -- PSR-EW400: NO
Delay Send Level (CC#94) -- CT-X700: YES -- PSR-EW400: NO

As I said, XG can do all of that. And I didn't list the things that both keyboards respond to, such as Attack Time, Release Time, Filter Resonance, Filter Cutoff, Reverb Depth, Chorus Depth, Modulation, Pan, Volume, Expression, and Pitch Bend. Also, most of these features cannot actually be accessed on the CT-X700, except for the three pedals (sustain, sostenuto, and soft).

Regarding Channel Aftertouch, as I understand it the message itself doesn't really do much of anything, since you need to define what aftertouch controls. So if you assign aftertouch to control modulation-- which in turn you assign to control vibrato-- you could achieve the same results by sending Modulation messages rather than Aftertouch messages. Indeed, the ability to receive aftertouch seems kind of worthless unless you have a keyboard controller that's able to generate Aftertouch messages, and (as far as I know) most keyboard controllers with channel aftertouch can be programmed to output whatever message type you want to assign aftertouch to (such as Modulation messages), rather than outputting Aftertouch messages per se.

It might seem odd that the CT-X700 doesn't respond to Bank Select LSB messages, but Casio uses Bank Select MSB messages to select the bank, so it doesn't actually need the Bank Select LSB.

I'm not sure how the portamento capability works, since (as I understand it) portamento usually requires that the part or channel be in monophonic mode rather than polyphonic mode, and neither the CT-X700 nor the PSR-EW400 respond to Channel Mode messages, hence there's no way to set a channel to monophonic mode. But both keyboards do respond to the Portamento Control message, so that message might be the key to controlling the portamento (no pun intended).
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710
 

Offline SciNote

Re: PSR-E463 and PSR-EW410
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2018, 11:20:56 AM »
I imagine many of these parameters will be keyboard-accessible on the higher end models of this line, which will be interesting to check out.  But what you said about registrations only being able to save what is accessed on the keyboard...  Isn't it the case that the PSR-E400 series keyboards actually have two different split points internally -- one for the auto accompaniment, and one for the actual split voice -- but that they can only be accessed as one common point from the keyboard, by setting the split point?  And didn't you create a custom registration, using a hex-editor, that enabled you to set these as two distinct split points, so that the auto accompaniment could stop at, say, the lowest octave of the keyboard, but the split voice point could be available for the first, say, two octaves, allowing three separate zones on the keyboard (accompaniment/split, split, and main/dual) ?  So, wouldn't this be a case where a registration could be created on a computer to access parameters not directly available on the keyboard, which could then be brought back to the keyboard?

As I recall, you said that once that registration is in the keyboard, a user could start with that registration as a template, then set their own voices, effects, levels, etc. and save it all to their own registrations, with the separate accompaniment and split voice points intact, as long as they don't actually change the split voice point from the keyboard before saving the registration.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 11:24:35 AM by SciNote »
Bob
Yamaha PSR-E433
Yamaha PSR-520
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: PSR-E463 and PSR-EW410
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2018, 01:25:30 PM »
Well, until someone buys a CT-X700, saves some Registrations, exports the Registrations to a computer, and examines them to determine the data structure, we of course don't know for sure what fields they might contain.

But I would be very surprised to see Registration fields for all of those CC parameters.
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710
 

Offline SciNote

Re: PSR-E463 and PSR-EW410
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2018, 04:34:34 PM »
Indeed, we'll see what comes down the pike.  I've found pictures of the CTX-5000 online ( https://music.casio.co.uk/ctx5000/ ), and there are no drawbar/slider controls (like on the CTK-7200), no live control knobs -- nothing that seems like it is designed to significantly modify the sound while playing.  It looks like it has a volume knob, a main data-entry rotary control, a pitch-bend wheel, and what is likely a modulation button by the pitch-bend wheel.  So, as always, it will probably have some things not available on the PSR-E's, whereas the PSR-E's will have some things not available on the Casio's.  And, if the street-price ends up being around $450-500, which may be the case, then it would be understandable if it has a few tricks up its sleeve!
Bob
Yamaha PSR-E433
Yamaha PSR-520
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: PSR-E463 and PSR-EW410
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2018, 05:38:18 PM »
Regarding the two Split Point fields (Accompaniment Split Point and Left Voice Split Point), they must have been "inherited" or "left behind" from older PSR models that had two Split Points, just as the PSR-S models do. And while the PSR-E panel controls and Function menu don't let you set the two Split Points individually, the Split Point you set in the Function menu is written to both Split Point fields-- so in that sense, both of the fields in the Registration memories can be updated from the panel controls (just not separately).

However, I spoke too hastily, because it's certainly possible that a Registration might contain fields which aren't directly accessible from the panel controls-- but in that case they would presumably contain default values.

For example, I have a few Backup (BUP) files from the PSR-E353, but unfortunately they all contain blank Registration memories because the owners hadn't saved any settings to a Registration, so I don't have any clue what each byte is used for. However, based on the size of the Registration section, coupled with the fact that the PSR-E353 has 9 Registration memories, I can tell that each Registration contains 54 bytes. If I list the fields that the Owners Manual says are saved to the Registration, it appears that there are about 20 bytes unaccounted for. That means it's possible there are a number of fields associated with the Main Voice, Dual Voice, and Split Voice which are stored in the Registration even though they aren't accessible in the Function menu. In particular, the Function menu lets you set the Octave and Chorus Depth for the Main Voice, as well as the Voice Number and Octave and Chorus Depth for the Dual Voice and the Split Voice. Notice that the Function menu doesn't show the Voice Volume, Pan, and Reverb Depth for each Voice, even though those are very basic settings. If by chance those parameters are stored in the Registration after all, it would account for 9 of the 20 bytes. That would still leave room for the Attack Time, Release Time, Filter Cutoff, and Filter Resonance for the Main Voice and Dual Voice. But I really have no idea what the PSR-E353's Registration memories look like, so this is just pure speculation.
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710
 

Offline SciNote

Re: PSR-E463 and PSR-EW410
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2018, 12:27:59 PM »
Well, I just took a trip to the local Sam Ash music store today, and sadly, there was yet no PSR-E463 or Casio CTX-700.  Not surprised about the E463, as it is not supposed to start shipping until May.  But I did take a quick look at some current Casios -- the CTK-7200, and the CTK-4400.  The key feel on the 7200 leaves MUCH to be desired -- very "springy" and "plasticky" -- they will need to make serious improvements to the key feel on newer models to be competitive -- unless this was just a worn demo model.  The 4400 was better, but still no match at all for the Yamaha PSR-E400 series.

A keyboard needs to have a quality feel, and this is one of the things that drew me to the E433.

They did have some keyboards from a brand I had never heard of before -- Medeli.  One was an $80 entry-level model that had a cheap key feel and decent sounds for the price.  Interestingly, there was a preset that came up on display as an abbreviation for "drawbar organ", but was labeled on the case (with a printed menu of voice names on the case) as "Hammond organ."  It was pretty convincing for the price.

But one up from that model was one that cost about $180, but really had a quality sound, and the key feel wasn't bad, either.  It seems like it's the same concept as the new Casio CTX-700, in that they have seemed to concentrate on providing a good sound for the price, but do not include many ways to modify the sound.  There is a DSP button, but it appears to simply turn on and off a preset DSP effect for a particular sound.
Bob
Yamaha PSR-E433
Yamaha PSR-520
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: PSR-E463 and PSR-EW410
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2018, 03:14:15 PM »
Casio has posted the User's Guide for the CT-X800. It has the same tones and rhythms as the CT-X700, and they appear to be nearly identical, but the CT-X800 has a pitch bend wheel.

I've heard of Medeli through other forum sites from posts by members in Europe (I think). I had searched for information about them and found manuals for many of their keyboard models, which I downloaded to look over. Those files are all dated May 18, 2014 on my computer, so that was almost 4 years ago, and I'm kind of fuzzy about it now, but my recollection is that their keyboards had (IIRC) 100 timbres to choose from, 100 accompaniments, etc.-- which struck me as similar to early (as in pre-GM1) Yamaha and Casio models. I didn't keep up with them after that.
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710