Topic: Kick drum editing

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi all,

I find that the Kick drum in most of the styles is way too loud, boomy, and ringy. Before anyone chimes in saying, “That doesn’t happen with my Genos,” I’m talking about my Genos going through my sound system. I’ve tried reducing the bass on my Genos L/R mixer channels but then the bass guitar voices become anemic. I honestly think Yamaha really dropped the ball on their style mixing. I could edit every one of my styles by using the Style Creator or some external software created by the very generous and smart folks on this site, but then I’d have dozens of user styles to sort through. It would be a dauting task!

My only solutions so far have been the following:

(1) Save the song in a registration where the Kick is mapped to Sub 1 out. Run a cable from the Sub 1 Out of the Genos to my mixer, which sits beside me. From there, I can adjust the Kick level but that can be hit and miss as well. Some songs you need to boost the level or bring it down a lot!

(2) Turn off the Kick drum because it's too loud and it's too big a task to solve the issue. You need the Kick drum for the “feel” of the rhythm section. Otherwise the rhythms sound anemic. What I DON’T need is a Kick drum that plays at the same level as the bass guitar. That is an absolute no-no on stage! The Tyros 5 never had this problem.

Thoughts or ideas are much appreciated. Thanks...

Extra info
The worst offender is the Kick drum that uses the B0 note. It's a horrible sounding kick, which simply means it could be changed to A0 but there again, we're getting into multiple User styles and basically setting up the Genos as Song 1 > User style 1, Song 2 > User style 2, and so on.

[Wim NL]

Menu 2 > Style Maker > Recording Channel > Drum Setting
By playing the style you can see what base drum is being played
Or search for the kick drum note in Step Edit
In Drum Setup, select the kick drum note (A0, B0, C1)
Lower the level or choose a different instrument for the Kick.
Play the style, save the style when you're happy and done.

Also in MixMaster you can also insert a instrument volume for the kick.

Also lower the amount of reverb for old styles.

[DrakeM]

Sounds like you want the style to sound correct.

Therefore you just have to set it up once and save it as a USER style. I personally do not use or play using any preset Yamaha style ever.

If you want it correct, you have to put in the time and effect and then save it.

[MadrasGiaguari]

Dear Lee,

I totally agree with Wim advise. It is exactly what I do. I would just add that, once in Drum Setup, you have quite a few parameters to adjust the sound of the Kick: Pitch, Cutoff, Resonance and other.
In Drum setup, the Pan command too can be effective: one can try to place the Kick a little left (let's say -10) and then, in Play mode/Mixer place the Bass a little Right (let's say +10): this way the two bass frequencies sources (Kick and Bass Guitar) don't interfere too much each other. 

In addition to the regular method recalled by Wim, one may also reduce the boom feeling by modifying the EQ setting for the Drum2 track: in Play mode, listen to the Kick, go to Mixer, EQ, Rhythm2, reduce the Low settings (usually about -30 makes the difference). If still not good increase the High (even to +60). Then (still playing) adjust the Volume of the Rhythm2 Track, to rebalance all.

Ciao,

Angelo
Once you like the results, save the Style with the new settings.

[Lee Batchelor]

Wim, Drake, and Angelo...thanks for the great suggestions! If I were to summarize your thoughts, I'd be back to doing all my edits on the Genos. Too bad Yamaha never created a computer interface between the Genos and a PC or Mac. I'll play around with the various settings and see what I can do.

I did make some changes in the Master screen. I may be able to handle some the problem on a global scale, which is the fastest and easiest way. That would be better than going through over 275 registrations and basically redoing everything from scratch .

[MadrasGiaguari]

Dear Lee,

about the missing computer connection, the good thing of working within the arranger is that you LISTEN to what happens in real time, while modifying the values od the parameters.

275 Styles are many, but you don't need to revise the complete Style, but just concentrate on the Kick AND Bass Guitar tuning, that takes much shorter time that adjusting completely a Style.
And once you find the "right recipe" it will be easy and fast to do the changes in other Styles.
I say that because an action on general parameters wouldn't take into account the big difference from Style to Style in this respect. Jut start.... and with the good results you will fill encouraged to continue.....

Ciao,

Angelo
Angelo

[DrakeM]

Hi Lee

I didn't realize you were having issues with your registrations from your previous keyboard as you were saying the style's drum and bass were too loud.

I have always setup each style for each song and saved it as a User style and not used registrations (expect for special needs). When going to my next keyboard I am pretty curtain the styles will play correctly in the new keyboard. I had no issue going from a PSR 2000 to the PSR S950. I just changed out the OTS choices with the improved Guitar voices. I did need to redo all my VH setups, as the S950 uses the totally new VH2 system. 

I know folks like to use the registrations, maybe they are easy to set up. But I keep reading on the forum you can't just transfer registrations from one keyboard to the next and not have issues with how they sound on the new keyboard.   

[Lee Batchelor]

Great idea, Angelo.

Actually, the bass guitar can stay as it is on all my styles. It's only the Kick and sometimes Toms that are too loud. Fortunately, the Edit window is readily available for the drum channel, that editing will go a lot faster. I may even look in the Legacy drum kits for a more realistic Kick. The Revo ones don't sound good to my ear. Too ringy! That's the first thing we fix on stage  - kick drum with too much delay, howling, or ringing going through the subs.

I'm starting to think Yamaha may have favored the Genos speakers when they set the initial parameters. This makes perfect sense but when pros use much larger speakers, things fall apart. In that case they need an external way of editing drum and other parts. I'll see about using the Mix Master program too.

Thanks again for the help !!

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi Drake,

You're the second one to mention about building a song with User styles instead of a default style. It makes sense because the User style parameters are locked in and are independently controlled when transferred from one keyboard to the next. A Registration can still be used. It just takes a little longer to set up. I'm in a bit of a stage lull at the moment. I'm going to spend the time revamping all my styles. Thanks for the great input 👍!

Note to all who wish to revamp or set up User styles and Registrations
It may seem obvious but when setting up User styles and Registrations, make sure you do so with the speakers you're going to play through. I own a set of Bose Pro 8 stage speakers AND a pair of Yamaha HS-8 studio monitors for recording and mixing. I set up a bunch of styles one time using the HS-8s. It was a disaster when played through the Bose!! Both sets of speakers are "flat" but the room in which the setups were done "colored" the final sound. I had to do the setups all over again!

[pjd]

Hi Lee --

This seems like the kind of problem that one would like to fix in one place instead of editing the drum voice in a zillion styles.

YEM has the ability to edit drum kits including a limited number of legacy drum kits (ArabicKit, BrushKit, CymbalKit, ElectroKit, NoisesKit, RockKit and StandardKit2). The other possibility is to acquire a 3rd party drum kit which allows modification (i.e., not protected).

Of course, this means all of the relevant styles must use the edited drum kit; you'll still wind up editing all of the styles as to choice of drum kit for Rhythm2 (or maybe Rhythm1, if necessary).

Cheesh, this is a difficult problem. Wishing you the best -- pj

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi PJ,

I've been a Windows user since 3.0 came out. After all these years, I look at Yamaha software and wonder where their brains are. They REALLY step outside the box of the typical Windows processes. Hence, I tried using YEM once and that was enough for me. I didn't know you could edit drums with it. Perhaps I'll try again and see if I can figure it out.

Thanks 👍!

[maarkr]

 'I’m talking about my Genos going through my sound system. '

idk if i missed it but what is your sound system?  Lo freqs can sound bad depending on the playback equipment.  I've also noticed MANY of the default sounds have been EQ'd, not necessarily for the best playback depending on the system.

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi Maarkr,

I use two Bose Pro 8 speakers for the Genos and vocals. They have an F3 cutoff of 45 Hz. You're 100% right about the EQ settings. I think Yamaha has favored the speakers that come with the Genos, and why shouldn't they?

At least they included some parametric EQ options. The problem is, while you can easily fix the kick drum boomy-ness on a global scale, you end up destroying the bass lines on some or most of the styles. A proper drum editor would solve that issue - something a lot of stage performers have been asking for. Problem is, Yamaha caters to the home players and again, why shouldn't they? Home players make up about 95% of the Genos market. We're between a rock and a hard case.