Author Topic: Polyphony 256?  (Read 2855 times)

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Offline ektor_s900

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Polyphony 256?
« on: December 28, 2017, 05:34:23 PM »
Hello everyone, and forgive the ignorance regarding this issue.
I want to know if this affects a style because when I create styles sometimes it tells me full memory, does this affect the polyphony? and in the midis part as it affects thanks.
To the being of 256 that benefits brings?
Ektor PSR-510-630-740-3k-S900-GW8L-S910-S970
 

Offline travlin-easy

Re: Polyphony 256?
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2017, 06:51:25 PM »
It should not affect anything you do. The amount of polyphony would only impact you if you had multiple instruments playing and playing complex right hand chords, which when over the 256 limit, would cause some sounds not to play.

Hope this helps,

Gary 8)
Love Those Yammies...
 

Offline zionip

Re: Polyphony 256?
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2017, 09:02:51 PM »
The specifications of Genos:
Polyphony:  256 Max. (128 for Preset Voices + 128 for Expansion Voices)

If you are only using Preset Voices, then you actually have only polyphony of 128, not 256.

Thanks,
Paul

Offline travlin-easy

Re: Polyphony 256?
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2017, 10:05:25 PM »
Paul, as with ALL keyboards, it's not the amount of polyphony, it's more how that it is utilized by the onboard firmware. I've seen keyboards with more polyphony, that didn's sound nearly as natural as the Yamaha's I've owned.

All the best,

Gary 8)
Love Those Yammies...
 

Offline Marcus

Re: Polyphony 256?
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2017, 01:20:48 AM »
I was practicing some Christmas hymns last week with both my Tyros 5 and my Genos sitting on top. On the last refrain if I add the fourth multipad or add the Right Hand 3 on top of all the multipads and full chording Left/Right hand parts, notes begin to get chopped off while playing on my Tyros 5. I am using no expansion in this particular case. As long as I don't add the fourth multipad to the others or add the third right hand layered voice, my Tyros 5 was fine. Obviously I was exceeding the 128 note polyphony.

For fun, I tried the exact same style, multipads, and Voice combination on my Genos and I experienced no note drop off whatsoever when using all the 4 multipads or Left/Right Hand parts while playing full chords. Again, I am using no expansion voices, so the (128 preset + 128 expansion) polyphony combination spec doesn't come into play. I can recall two sources that indicates that polyphony was doubled on the Genos compared to the Tyros 5.

I can also vaguely recall an explanation that the Tyros 5 128 polyphony was based on 64 + 64 stereo samples, where the Genos has 128 preset stereo samples. So in effect, polyphony is actually doubled, plus expansion has an independent polyphony of 128. The fact that I so far cannot make my Genos drop any notes whatsoever, most likely confirms my suspected understanding. My experiences on my short time on the Genos has been awesome, considering it as a high performance pro version of an arranger keyboard (spec wise and sound quality).

The most annoying thing I am experiencing now is, when I go back operating my Tyros 5 I am now occasionally in the habit of touching the screen instead of the buttons and of course nothing happens. The Genos touch screen is getting easier as I learn the navigation. I little trick to make your Genos touch screen a little quicker is turning off the "Transition Effect". Don't really need this added effect unless you are showing off your Genos to your friends. Go to Utility Menu 2 - Display/Touch Screen and turn the Transition Effect "off".

Marcus 
Gear: Triangle
"Extremely Happy with Genos"
 
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Offline pjd

Re: Polyphony 256?
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2017, 02:05:52 PM »
I can also vaguely recall an explanation that the Tyros 5 128 polyphony was based on 64 + 64 stereo samples, where the Genos has 128 preset stereo samples. So in effect, polyphony is actually doubled, plus expansion has an independent polyphony of 128.

True, thanks to the new tone generator IC.

The most annoying thing I am experiencing now is, when I go back operating my Tyros 5 I am now occasionally in the habit of touching the screen instead of the buttons and of course nothing happens.

LOL! I am now doing the same thing on the S950. "This stupid display! Why isn't anything, oh, er, I forgot. Never mind..."  :)

All the best -- pj
 

Offline keynote

Re: Polyphony 256?
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2017, 06:12:08 PM »
Originally posted by Marcus:

"I can also vaguely recall an explanation that the Tyros 5 128 polyphony was based on 64 + 64 stereo samples, where the Genos has 128 preset stereo samples. So in effect, polyphony is actually doubled, plus expansion has an independent polyphony of 128. The fact that I so far cannot make my Genos drop any notes whatsoever, most likely confirms my suspected understanding."

If in fact the preset polyphony on the Genos is 128 "stereo" samples then that is fantastic news but is it an accurate assessment? As we know the Montage has 128 "stereo" notes of polyphony for the acoustic sound engine and 128 notes of polyphony for the FM sound engine and Yamaha clearly stated 128 "stereo" polyphony for the acoustic sound engine of the Montage. On the other hand, Yamaha did not mention "stereo" polyphony for the Genos preset voices. Here is how they worded it on their website: 256 Max. (128 for Preset Voices + 128 for Expansion Voices) as zionip noted. As you can see there is no mention of "stereo" polyphony for the Genos. Now that doesn't mean it doesn't have stereo polyphony for the preset voices it is just that Yamaha did not mention it on their website.

What I found very interesting is in the Genos 'manual' under specifications it says the Max polyphony is 256 with no mention of the words (128 Preset Voices + 128 for Expansion Voices). So if a person only read the Genos manual they would come to the conclusion the 256 note polyphony was allocated across the entire range of the keyboard including the expansion voices. So, in other words, there would not be the supposed (128 for Preset Voices + 128 for Expansion Voices) limitation but instead the total would be 256 note polyphony no matter what voices are played. Marcus saying he was able to play complex arrangements with no note drop off is very encouraging and seems to support his theory that the preset voices may indeed have 128 note "stereo" polyphony. Now if we could only get a Yamaha representative to confirm it one way or the other it would finally settle the matter once and for all. In fact I might just give Yamaha another ring and see if one of their tech support personnel knows the low down concerning the true nature of the purported 256 note polyphony. The wording on Yamaha's website makes it appear there is only 128 note polyphony for the preset voices and 128 note polyphony for the expansion voices. If the preset polyphony is in fact "stereo" in nature then that's a whole different ballgame and a grand slam for Genos owners I might add. Here's to hoping it is 256 for the preset voices. Has anybody confirmed what currently is a mystery? I might call Yamaha today in fact to hopefully resolve this issue once and for all.

Mike

PS: I just called Yamaha USA a few minutes ago but they are closed today (Friday December 29th) due to a corporate holiday. So it looks like Monday will be the earliest before I can get a hold of them.
 
« Last Edit: December 29, 2017, 06:21:55 PM by keynote »
 

Offline pjd

Re: Polyphony 256?
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2017, 09:43:31 PM »
Hi Mike --

Consulting both the Montage service manual and the Genos service manual, both instruments have two SWP70 tone generator ICs.

On the Montage, one SWP70 handles AWM2 and the other handles FM-X.

In the case of the Genos, one SWP70 has sufficient waveform memory for the factory preset voices. The other SWP70 has a smaller waveform memory which is sufficient for the expansion memory (assuming that user waveforms are uncompressed). Even though the SWP70s are interconnected by a bus (as they are in Montage, too), I don't have reason to believe that samples can be shared between "sides." This is consistent with the 128+128 spec -- 128 voice polyphony for preset voices and 128 voice polyphony for user voices (with user waveforms).

It wouldn't hurt to get Yamaha to confirm, but I'm betting dollars to doughnuts on 128 voice stereo polyphony on each side.

BTW, neither the Montage or Genos has built out the full capability of the SWP70 in the current generation. Yamaha is thinking many years ahead of us all...

Hope this helps -- pj

Music technology blog: http://sandsoftwaresound.net/
 
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Offline tyrosaurus

Re: Polyphony 256?
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2017, 10:22:11 PM »
What I found very interesting is in the Genos 'manual' under specifications it says the Max polyphony is 256 with no mention of the words (128 Preset Voices + 128 for Expansion Voices).

This was what was stated in the original 'B0' version of the Owner's manual.  However this version was quickly replaced with the 'C0' version at the beginning of November 2017.   Updated versions of the Reference Manual and the Data List (both 'B0') were released at the same time, so you might want to check what versions you have of these.

At the time of writing the 'C0' version of the Owner's manual is the latest one, and in it, the Polyphony in the Specifications is stated as being: 

256 (max.)
(128 for Preset Voices + 128 for Expansion Voices) 


However it doesn't say if this is mono or stereo, so it would be very interesting to hear what Yamaha have to say when you speak to them.


Regards

Ian
 

Offline keynote

Re: Polyphony 256?
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2017, 11:24:33 PM »
And that's the rub. It doesn't say mono or stereo and why it doesn't say is anyone's guess. I want it to have 128 "stereo" polyphony make no mistake.  8) Yamaha stated emphatically the Montage has 128 note "stereo" polyphony. Why would Yamaha leave out such a vital piece of information for the Genos? Is it now to be presumed that all Yamaha keyboards currently being produced will have "stereo" polyphony and they now expect their customers to understand that as a given from this day forward?

There is definitely confusion regarding this matter and in my opinion the only way to clear it up is by word of mouth from a Yamaha representative who knows what they are talking about. I understand it to mean just what it says. That is to say it has 128 note polyphony for the preset voices and 128 note polyphony for the expansion voices and the only way to take advantage of the claimed 256 note polyphony is by "combining" both the preset and expansion voices. Now Paul says it is highly unlikely that the polyphony of the preset voices can be "shared" with the expansion voices and that may in fact be true. And if it is true then it is also true that the Genos has "stereo" polyphony and that is such an important piece of information you would think Yamaha would have said so one way or the other right? For Yamaha to leave out that information tells me, anyway, that since the SWP70 is supposedly so powerful maybe one of its special powers is the ability to 'share' polyphony between the preset and expansion voices??  Just saying.   ;)

Mike
« Last Edit: December 29, 2017, 11:27:10 PM by keynote »
 

Offline jsb1999

Re: Polyphony 256?
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2018, 01:41:53 AM »
I ran into a situation where I ran out of notes: 4 busy multipads, complex style playing, R1,R2,R3 voices, etc.
Since one of the voices I was using was Legacy, I figured I could create a version in YEM and load it into the Expansion section, thereby utilizing the additional 128 notes of expansion polyphony.  However, this did not solve the problem.  I assume that even though the voice is called up from the expansion menu, the wave files themselves reside in the original preset location and use that polyphony.  I confirmed this by using an expansion voice that I had purchased which included wave files. This solved the polyphony issue.
 

Offline keynote

Re: Polyphony 256?
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2018, 05:35:19 AM »
I ran into a situation where I ran out of notes: 4 busy multipads, complex style playing, R1,R2,R3 voices, etc.
Since one of the voices I was using was Legacy, I figured I could create a version in YEM and load it into the Expansion section, thereby utilizing the additional 128 notes of expansion polyphony.  However, this did not solve the problem.  I assume that even though the voice is called up from the expansion menu, the wave files themselves reside in the original preset location and use that polyphony.  I confirmed this by using an expansion voice that I had purchased which included wave files. This solved the polyphony issue.

Can you please explain exactly what you did to cause the Genos to experience note drop off? You said you used 4 multi-pads and complex style playing plus R1, R2, R3 voices. What style did you use? Which multi-pads did you use? Which R1, R2, R3 voices did you use? Did you use a sustain pedal at all? If you give us the exact things you did/used we can try them for ourselves and see if we experience the same thing you did.

PS: The Genos has "stereo" polyphony for both the preset and expansion voices. Regardless of whether you use the preset voices or expansion voices, or a combination of both, you have 256 Max notes of polyphony available to you at your disposal. If you provide us with all the voices, style(s), multi-pads, etc., you used, and did - such as sustain pedal, etc., we can better determine if it was really note drop off you experienced on the Genos or possibly a glitch within the operating system. You are using the latest firmware revision correct? FYI, I have also used complex arrangements and I have never experienced note drop off on my Genos. The link below is a summary description about the Genos including a list of features with an explanation about the polyphony and how it is utilized.

Yamaha Genos has 256 notes of true stereo polyphony
 

Offline tyrosaurus

Re: Polyphony 256?
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2018, 10:16:26 AM »
The page in the link actually says 'With 256 notes of true stereo polyphony, available notes will never be cut in half just because stereo Voices are in use, and even dense arrangements and performances won't brush the ceiling.'

All that this means is that a voice can be mono or stereo but will effectively use the same polyphony.

However, although the statement in the link does not admit it,  after pressure from users Yamaha have admitted that the 256 notes of polyphony are actually split between 128 (max.) notes for internal voices (including USER edited ones, stereo or mono), and the remaining 128 notes for expansion voices!   The current OS does not make the extra 128 notes of polyphony available to internal voices when no expansion voices are being used, so if you are not using expansion voices, the available polyphony for internal voices is 128 notes stereo or mono, no more!

To me, suggesting that the available polyphony is 256 notes smacks of the way that dodgy manufacturers attempt to 'big up' their products and hide the truth about them, and the statement in the page at the link surely suggests that Yamaha are being somewhat less than truthful about this issue, and therefore who knows what else!

I suspect that users of Yamaha keyboards run out of polyphony more often than they realise, especially those with three Right voices (Tyros and Genos).  Remember that multi-element voices will use one note for each element currently sounding, and that voices continuing to sound after key release (with sustain for example), will continue to use polyphony until they decay. 

I would love to see a real time polyphony indicator displayed on the main (home) screen, but I suspect that this will never be implemented, since it would clearly show everyone the shortcomings in some of Yamaha's products.


Regards

Ian
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 10:18:29 AM by tyrosaurus »
 
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Offline keynote

Re: Polyphony 256?
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2018, 09:14:11 PM »
The page in the link actually says 'With 256 notes of true stereo polyphony, available notes will never be cut in half just because stereo Voices are in use, and even dense arrangements and performances won't brush the ceiling.'

All that this means is that a voice can be mono or stereo but will effectively use the same polyphony.

However, although the statement in the link does not admit it,  after pressure from users Yamaha have admitted that the 256 notes of polyphony are actually split between 128 (max.) notes for internal voices (including USER edited ones, stereo or mono), and the remaining 128 notes for expansion voices!   The current OS does not make the extra 128 notes of polyphony available to internal voices when no expansion voices are being used, so if you are not using expansion voices, the available polyphony for internal voices is 128 notes stereo or mono, no more!

To me, suggesting that the available polyphony is 256 notes smacks of the way that dodgy manufacturers attempt to 'big up' their products and hide the truth about them, and the statement in the page at the link surely suggests that Yamaha are being somewhat less than truthful about this issue, and therefore who knows what else!

Regards

Ian

UPDATE!

I had to revise my whole post because of what I consider uncertainty regarding the polyphony issue. In trying to wrap my head around this issue I am learning more, I think, about how the polyphony is allocated on the Genos and how it functions in the real world. Now first of all the Genos has (utilizes) true stereo polyphony and that is according to Yamaha's own official statement.

That means when you play a "stereo" sample (voice) you're using only one note of polyphony not two as normally would be under the old system of allocation on the Tyros and Motif series, etc. I think Yamaha tech support staff were also unsure how the polyphony worked which has led to some confusion among end users. The tech support representative I talked to at Yamaha USA wasn't too resolute in his answer but I came away with the impression the 256 was available across the entire range of the keyboard. But in reality it's sub-divided into two sections i.e. preset and expansion, albeit, under the new "stereo" system of allocation. So you have 128 notes available for the preset voices but under the new system of allocation those same 128 notes of polyphony go further because the stereo samples only use one note of polyphony instead of two under the old system. Once you reach the limit of polyphony available from the preset voices you can tap into the 128 notes of polyphony available under the expansion voices for a total of 256 Max.

PS: I noticed over at he Yamaha Synth forum that Montage owners also seemed confused about the polyphony and Bad Mister aka Phil Cleninden seemed evasive in his answers which seemed to lead to even more confusion. I wish Yamaha would come out and give us a direct answer so we can put this issue to rest once and for all. Montage owners seem to feel the same way I might add. ;) Where is Yamaha when you really need them?  :-X

Mike

« Last Edit: February 06, 2018, 10:24:54 PM by keynote »
 

Offline pjd

Re: Polyphony 256?
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2018, 11:22:59 PM »
Hi --

I agree with Ian. Each tone generator IC has its own wave memory: one TG has the preset NAND flash and the other TD has the expansion NAND flash. The samples cannot be shared between TG ICs. That means 128 stereo voice polyphony for preset voices and 128 stereo voice polyphony for expansion voices. (Source: service manual)

Also, after digging through a number of the UVF (voice definition) files that are distributed with YEM, it's clear that Genos retains many of the stereo voices where each side (left and right) consume a single tone generation element -- two elements (two full voices of Genos polyphony). The elements are panned hard left and hard right. So, legacy stereo voices will still chew up polyphony at the old rate.

Newly sampled Genos voices -- and those using waveforms newly sampled for Montage -- use the stereo capability of the SWP70 tone generator.

The true picture is not simple, not black and white...

All the best -- pj
 

Offline jsb1999

Re: Polyphony 256?
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2018, 01:31:57 AM »
The point of my last post was that for polyphony purposes, 'expansion voices' does not mean voices called up from the Expansion Voice menu, but voices whose wave files are stored in the expansion memory portion of the Genos. A minor detail perhaps, but may be of use to some of us dealing with polyphony issues.
 

Offline Oymmot

Re: Polyphony 256?
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2018, 01:56:58 AM »
Hallo.
Iím from Sweden so I am sure I  do not understand all but, 256 voices are mot the same as 256 different instrument. One instrument can be a lot more than one voice. Everything take voices, pitch, sustain and so on.
This Is just a try to help.
Tommy
Tommy ÷lin
Hemsida: http://www.oymmot.se
E-post: tommys.musik@oymmot.se
 

Offline pjd

Re: Polyphony 256?
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2018, 03:21:07 AM »

Just wanted to post voice programming information for two example Genos Live! voices. "Live" in Yamaha-speak means "These acoustic instrument sounds were sampled in stereo, to produce a truly authentic, rich sound -- full of atmosphere and ambience."

SeattleSpiccato has three elements and each element has its own stereo waveform. An incoming MIDI note triggers one or more elements according to its MIDI note number and velocity. In this voice, element #2 is always triggered since it is spread across the entire note range [C-2:G8] and velocity range [1:127]. Element 0 is triggered if the incoming velocity is in the range [1:89]. Element 1 is triggered if the incoming velocity is in the range [90:127].

So, a MIDI note always triggers two elements -- that's two "voices of polyphony." Since Genos (SWP70) elements are stereo and the waveforms are stereo, it's only two "voices of polyphony."


SeattleSpiccato.uvf
                                  Note  Note  Vel  Vel
    # Waveform                     Low   Hi   Low   Hi  Pan  Wave#
    - --------------------------- ----  ----  ---  ---  ---  -----
    0 Spicato_f_tuned              C-2   G8    1    89    0   5784
    1 Spicato_ff_tuned             C-2   G8   90   127    0   5785
    2 Seattle_Spiccato_Hard_Split  C-2   G8    1   127    0   5786

Allegro.uvf
                                  Note  Note  Vel  Vel
    # Waveform                     Low   Hi   Low   Hi  Pan  Wave#
    - --------------------------- ----  ----  ---  ---  ---  -----
    0 [V-654 El-1]                 C-2   G8    1   127   -1   4081
    1 [V-654 El-2]                 C-2   G8    1   127    1   4082
    2 [V-654 El-3]                 C-2   G8    1   127   -1   4098
    3 [V-654 El-4]                 C-2   G8    1   127    1   4099


Allegro is an old legacy voice which is a layer of two stereo instruments. It's waveforms are mono. Elements 0 and 1 are a pair and are panned hard left (-1) and right (1). Elements 2 and 3 are a pair and are panned hard left and right.

An incoming MIDI note triggers all four elements because all elements are spread across the entire keyboard [C-2:G8] and the full velocity range [1:127]. The Allegro voice consumes four "voices of polyphony" for each MIDI note! Genos still has a lot of these old legacy voices.

Hope these examples help out. The discussion can get pretty abstract. :-)

All the best -- pj

Music technology blog: http://sandsoftwaresound.net/
 

Offline jwyvern

Re: Polyphony 256?
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2018, 04:55:01 AM »
Hi Paul,
I remember delving into some of the older live and other so called stereo voices with Tyros's using the PC Editor (Yamaha software that preceded YEM). Although it was common practice for Yamaha to hard pan matched pairs left and right I was never convinced there was any sonic advantage in doing so. I could not hear a quality difference (just a level difference) between using 2 static elements (which on average gave a voice sounding at centre) or just using one of them panned at centre. Maybe there is some genetic fault in my hearing, but the technique seemed to me to be an unnecessary squander of polyphony.

John
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 05:00:04 AM by jwyvern »
 

Offline pjd

Re: Polyphony 256?
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2018, 02:49:45 AM »
Hi John --

I hear ya. :-)

My opinion is mixed. When putting together backing tracks for S950, a few Live voices create an instant stereo field and make the track sound more lively (no pun intended) from the built-in speakers. That's a plus for a "home player" because the sonic experience is enhanced even though mixing pros would prefer to make their own left/right decisions.

On the other hand, when I play live, the PA is mono and schlepping one powered monitor is enough. Not enough space to set up two monitors, either. So, why bother with stereo? In that case, the polyphony is wasted.

All of my backing tracks are frozen to digital audio (WAV or MP3), so I'm never really pressed for polyphony and don't worry about this too much in practice.

All the best to ya -- pj

« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 06:04:49 AM by pjd »
 

Offline jwyvern

Re: Polyphony 256?
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2018, 04:13:23 AM »
Hi Paul,
 I was listening through 4 speakers in a 2x stereo configuration with 10 feet between the left and rights at home.
Unlike my experience it looks as if you did find some benefit when played through built in speakers, which suggests that hard panning left and right elements helps to widen the stereo field where the spacing between speakers is more modest (and possibly closer to the listener).

John