Author Topic: Create MegaVoices for the PSR S970  (Read 576 times)

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Offline rodrigo.b

Create MegaVoices for the PSR S970
« on: October 12, 2017, 09:28:52 PM »
Good Night! if I have a guitar sound on the computer (with Slides, Fret noises, Strum noises, etc.) or another sounds (brass, strings,etc) Can I create a megavoice with those samples that I have? I want to create a free expansion pack to share on my page and on this forum but I Can't find a tutorial on how to create megavoices that can work with songs and factory styles.
 

Offline EileenL

Re: Create MegaVoices for the PSR S970
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2017, 02:08:12 AM »
Mega voices were created by Yamaha to enhance the style parts and as far as I know can not be created

Offline Patrick

Re: Create MegaVoices for the PSR S970
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2017, 04:43:53 AM »
Hi Rodrigo, you can create your own voices using YEM; you can import your samples and then add some effects, .... You can also make your own kit off batterie, if you've the wave samples;  you can also make your own PPF pack, all the best Patrick
 ;)
 

Offline DerekA

Re: Create MegaVoices for the PSR S970
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2017, 05:21:43 AM »
A MegaVoice basically has (very) different samples assigned to different note and velocity ranges. So as long as you've got the samples and the time, there's no reason why you can't build one in YEM.
S770
 

Offline Enildo

Re: Create MegaVoices for the PSR S970
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2017, 06:11:22 AM »
Hi Rodrigo!

Yes, it is possible to create.
The megavoices are several samples of the same voice and several layers.
After creating you can access each of the layers by editing the "touch", as is done in the yamaha megavices.

Greetings,
Enildo
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 06:12:54 AM by Enildo »
When word fail, Music speaks!
 

Offline Misu

Re: Create MegaVoices for the PSR S970
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2017, 06:28:37 AM »
Hi Enildo,

I'm interest on this topic and, not enough knowledge.
How we can do this; using the elements from YEM?
This means that each voice have max. 8 elements (these elements are in fact the oscillators?)
Can someone to tell us if the polyphony it is 128, for example, for each element or if have voice with 8 elements the polyphony it is 16?
In this case can we use these MV for the right hand?

Thanks
Mihai
 

Offline pjd

Re: Create MegaVoices for the PSR S970
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2017, 06:33:18 AM »
A MegaVoice basically has (very) different samples assigned to different note and velocity ranges. So as long as you've got the samples and the time, there's no reason why you can't build one in YEM.

Just adding to Derek's comment.

I recommend studying the MegaVoice maps in the Data List PDF.

Regular voices are the usual MIDI voice: 128 velocity levels and only one basic sound. For example, nylon guitar is just the pitched, melodic sound of the notes either louder or softer depending on note velocity.

Megavoice guitars (and other Megavoices) are different. Please look at the Megavoice Map starting on page 16 of the Tyros Data List PDF.

Let's take a look at the Mega NylonGuitar voice. For MIDI notes B5 and below, the MIDI velocity is broken into eight (8) ranges:

    1- 20 Open soft
   21- 40 Open med
   41- 60 Open hard
   61- 75 Dead
   76- 90 Mute
   91-105 Hammer
  106-120 Slide
  121-127 Harmonics

Each range plays a different kind of sound. So, the MIDI velocity determines which guitar sound. Then, the velocity within that limited range determines how loud it will be.

Example 1: MIDI note A4, velocity 38 makes an Open Med guitar sound which is loud.

Example 2: MIDI note A4, velocity 2 makes an Open Med guitar sound which is quiet.

Example 3: MIDI note A4, velocity 110, makes a Slide guitar sound.

Now, let's look at the last two columns in the Megavoice map, again, Mega NylonGuitar voice. For MIDI notes between C6 and B7, the Tyros plays a Strum noise. The velocity in this case determines the Strum noise loudness over the full range 1-127.

For MIDI notes above C8, the Tyros plays a Fret noise. The velocity determines the fret noise volume and is full range 1-127.

Example 4: MIDI note D8, velocity 127 plays a very loud fret noise.

Now you need to figure out how to do this in YEM. Each voice has up to eight elements. Think of each element as a mini-controllable synthesizer.

You will need one element for each of the velocity ranges that form the main body of your Mega Voice. In the case of the Mega NylonGuitar voice, that's eight elements!

In YEM, build one element at a time. Layout the samples for one velocity range of the main body. You may have one waveform or you may have several waveforms. Each waveform occupies a key range. Do not map any waveforms onto the keys C6 and above (yet). These keys are reserved for the noise notes.

When you select a waveform belonging to an element, YEM highlights the color and displays eight resizing dots on the edges of the waveform. Use these dots to resize the waveform. Moving left or right changes the key assignment for the waveform. Moving an edge up or down changes the lower or upper limit of the velocity range to be assigned to the waveform.

If you have a lot of samples, be prepared to do a lot of work! Now you're learning how much work Yamaha puts into voice development!

Once you have assigned the waveforms (samples) for the main body of your new voice, you can work on the noise notes, that is, any keys C6 and above.

Select the first element. Assign the waveforms for the noise notes to the keys C6 and above. The actual layout is up to you, but you must use only the keys C6 and above.

If your noise notes have only one velocity range, 1 to 127, then you must set the velocity range for only those waveforms (1 to 127). If your noise notes have two or more velocity ranges (not recommended), then you must use more than one element.

So, you can see that YEM has enough editing power to create a Mega Voice. Be prepared to study carefully how Yamaha voices are constructed. Please don't expect to just jump in, clap your hands, and be finished. I regard Mega Voice development as a fairly advanced, expert job. If you haven't created a voice before using YEM, then I suggest trying something simple until you understand elements, waveform layout across keys, and velocity ranges.

Hope this helps -- pj
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 06:39:14 AM by pjd »
 
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Offline Enildo

Re: Create MegaVoices for the PSR S970
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2017, 06:37:13 AM »
Hi Enildo,

I'm interest on this topic and, not enough knowledge.
How we can do this; using the elements from YEM?
This means that each voice have max. 8 elements (these elements are in fact the oscillators?)
Can someone to tell us if the polyphony it is 128, for example, for each element or if have voice with 8 elements the polyphony it is 16?
In this case can we use these MV for the right hand?

Thanks
Mihai

The above explanation from the PJ is excellent.
That's right. I could not explain it better.

Enildo
When word fail, Music speaks!
 

Offline pjd

Re: Create MegaVoices for the PSR S970
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2017, 06:37:38 AM »
Can someone to tell us if the polyphony it is 128, for example, for each element or if have voice with 8 elements the polyphony it is 16?

Hi --

Here is a reply about polyphony that I posted to the Genos thread.

This has always been a somewhat confusing topic because of the way polyphonic voices are counted. A Tyros (or Motif or Montage) voice consists of up to 8 elements. Assume that only RIGHT1 is enabled and thus, only one Tyros voice is enabled. When a key is struck, the AWM2 engine determines the active elements and assigns each active element to a physical-level, hardware tone generation channel. One or more elements may be active simultaneously for a given note under the assumption.

Assignment and channel use is additive. If RIGHT1 and RIGHT2 are enabled (i.e., two layered voices), then there are one or more active elements from the RIGHT1 voice and one or more active elements from the RIGHT2 voice. This is why layers chew up polyphony.

The number of tone generation channels determines the actual number of active tones playing at any time -- the maximum polyphony.

If you're not confused yet, hold on. In the past, a stereo voice would use two tone generation channels where mono uses one channel.

-- pj
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 06:40:55 AM by pjd »
 

Offline Misu

Re: Create MegaVoices for the PSR S970
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2017, 06:55:48 AM »
Thanks PJD,

Yes I'm confused, so the polyphony in my supposed case is 16?

Best regards
Mihai
 

Offline pjd

Re: Create MegaVoices for the PSR S970
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2017, 07:20:30 AM »
Hello Mihai --

Be prepared to be even more confused!

Even if all eight elements are defined in a Mega Voice, not all eight elements may be active at a time. One to eight elements may be active depending upon the incoming MIDI note and the element programming (i.e., the velocity range and note range for each element.) When the synthesis engine gets a MIDI note (consisting of a MIDI note number and velocity), it decides which elements to play. If only one element matches, then only one polyphony voice is used up. If two elements match, then two polyphony voices are used up, and so on.

Thus, depending upon the combination of note ranges and velocity levels, a voice may use anywhere from one to eight voices of polyphony. It all comes down to the particular design (programming) of a user voice.

Whew!

All the best -- pj
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 10:29:07 AM by pjd »
 

Offline Misu

Re: Create MegaVoices for the PSR S970
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2017, 07:33:55 AM »
Hi PJD

Thanks again, I don't know why but now seems to be more clear.
Now I understand why 256 max. polyphony of Genos can improve many on the sound if it is used.

Regards
Mihai


 

Offline pjd

Re: Create MegaVoices for the PSR S970
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2017, 10:31:05 AM »
Thanks again, I don't know why but now seems to be more clear.

Hello Mihai --

I noticed something wrong with my last post and changed it. I hope the element counting scheme is easier to understand. The changes I made are rather important.

Thanks and take care -- pj
 

Offline voodoo

Re: Create MegaVoices for the PSR S970
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2017, 05:39:56 AM »
pj,

I see one problem why mega voices cannot be made perfectly in YEM. This concerns the velocity ranges. According to your example we have:

* 1-20 open soft
* 21-40 open med
* ...
* 91-105 hammer

So for mega voices we get:

* 20 is a loud open soft note
* 21 is a quiet open med note

* 91 is a quiet hammer note

And this is just not possible with YEM. The velocity in YEM is fix connected to the output level. Even if we assign the right sample, what we can, we get:

* velocity level 21 is always louder than 20
* Velocity level 91 is always louder than 20

So we will never get a loud open soft note at 20, and will never get a quiet hammer note at 91.

It is because, the synth parameter that determines how velocity influences volume level, is not given in YEM. We have touch sense for pitch and filter, but not for amplitude, sadly.

pj, have you thought about this?

Uli
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 05:41:07 AM by voodoo »
Yamaha PSR-S970 (sold)
Yamaha Genos (ordered)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline voodoo

Re: Create MegaVoices for the PSR S970
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2017, 05:43:07 AM »
This is the same reason why we cannot do a velocity cross fade for two elements of one voice. We have to use two voices and two panel voice parts and apply the velocity cross fade on this level.

Perhaps YEM 2.5 will extend the features in November....

Uli
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 05:47:36 AM by voodoo »
Yamaha PSR-S970 (sold)
Yamaha Genos (ordered)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline DerekA

Re: Create MegaVoices for the PSR S970
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2017, 07:16:39 AM »
I get what you're saying, but you're in control of the samples. So you need to find a wave sample that's quiet at velocity 91. No-one said it was easy, just possible ....

Offline Enildo

Re: Create MegaVoices for the PSR S970
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2017, 02:23:07 PM »
Hello Everybody!

See this article on the site "Sand, software and sound".
It explains very well how to create your "megavoices" in YEM:
Link: http://sandsoftwaresound.net/creating-mega-voice-yem/

Enildo
When word fail, Music speaks!
 

Offline pjd

Re: Create MegaVoices for the PSR S970
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2017, 06:56:22 AM »
Hello Everybody!

See this article on the site "Sand, software and sound".
It explains very well how to create your "megavoices" in YEM:
Link: http://sandsoftwaresound.net/creating-mega-voice-yem/

Enildo

Hi Enildo --

OK, we've come full circle.  :D  :D  :D

Not everyone knows that I'm the guy behind http://sandsoftwaresound.net

Enildo's link points back to a lesson that I made out of our thread! Joe W is considering this lesson for the PSR Tutorial, too.

All smiles and thanks, Enildo -- pj

Offline pjd

Re: Create MegaVoices for the PSR S970
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2017, 07:17:03 AM »
Hi Uli --

Very good point. I encountered something like this when I did the velocity switched scat voice. To be honest, I didn't do much to deal with the issue then. (I just got sick of that whole project.  :P )

Ummmm, I drew the red circle in a different place. (Please see attachment.)

YEM lets us set the volume for individual waveforms (samples). If someone is building a regular voice, this lets them balance the loudness of the samples across the keyboard. It prevents C5 from sounding louder than D5 if there is a split between the C5 and the D5, i.e., D5 plays a different sample than C5 where the amplitude of the C5 wave is higher than D5.

When building a velocity switched voice or a Mega Voice, the loudness needs to be balanced across velocity ranges, too. This could be accomplished using the wave volume slider.

Going back to your picture, the amplitude envelope is per-element. Wouldn't we be able to get the same effect by setting the maximum amplitude for each element? I see what you mean, though. It's not perfect.

Close enough for rock and roll?  :)

I need to see what they do on MOX.

All the best -- pj

Offline pjd

Re: Create MegaVoices for the PSR S970
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2017, 08:46:24 AM »
Hi Uli --

I'm just about out of time for today. (Gotta run downtown.) Here are parameter values for the Mega Nylon voice on the MOX:


MOX F01 Mega Nylon

                                             Amp Velocity Sensitivity
El# Waveform            Notes   Veloc  Xfade    Curve Level Offset
--- ------------------- ------ ------- -----    ----- ----- ------
 1  Nylon Open Sw St    C-2 B5   1-60    0        2    +28    62
 2  Nylon Dead Notes St C-2 B5  61-75    0        2    +55    51
 3  Nylon Mute St       C-2 B5  76-90    0        2    +55    36
 4  Nylon Hammer St     C-2 B5  91-105   0        2    +55    21
 5  Nylon Slide St      C-2 B5 106-120   0        2    +55     6
 6  Nylon Harmonics St  C-2 B5 121-127   0        2    +60     0
 7  Nylon FX St          C6 G8   1-127   0        3    +32     0

    INIT     Attack       DCV1        DCV2     Release
El# Level  Time Level  Time Level  Time Level   Time
--- -----  ----------  ----------  ----------  -------
 1   127    74   127    66    90    97    0       20
 2   127    85   127    80     0     0    0       20
 3   127    85   127    80     0     0    0       20
 4   127    72   127    63    86    97    0       20
 5   127    82   127    66    90    98    0       20
 6   127    58   127    60    86    95    0       20
 7   127    96   127    60     0     0    0       20


Hopefully, I didn't make any transcription errors. "Xfade" is velocity crossfade (always zero). Velocity sensitivity level and offset are tweaked for each waveform range as expected. The second table is the Amplitude Envelope Generator (AEG) parameters.

I guess we can get close with YEM, but not the whole enchillada.  :D

For those people that don't care about the gobbledygook, please note that the Tyros 5 voice is more detailed than the MOX voice. You get what you pay for.

All the best -- pj

Offline voodoo

Re: Create MegaVoices for the PSR S970
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2017, 07:18:36 AM »
Wow, pj,

you challenge me always again, so I have to give an intelligent reply.... ;) So I try to give my best....

Thank you for your excellent description if the MOX megavoice. The most interesting column is the Offsett column. When we add the upper velocity limit and the offset we get the maximum volume of each waveform:

* 1 Nylon open Sw St: 60+62=122
* 2 Nylon Deat notes St: 75+51=126
* 3 Nylon Mute St: 90+36=126
* 4 Nylon Hammer St: 105+21=126
* 5 Nylon Slide St: 120+6=126
* 6 Nylon Harmonics St: 127+0=127

So all waveforms nearly touch the upper limit 127 of max volume. When we consider the velocity-to-volume-function, we see the megavoices have a "increasing sawtooth".

But all voices in Yem only have a linear velocity-to-volume-function, because we don't have the touch sense offset parameter. All reachable volumes are below the bisecting. The volume parameter of the single waveform (that you have marked) is always relative to this boundary. That is, sample 1 is always quiet, sample 2 is always louder, sample 3 is always loudest. However, we could try to increase the overall volume of the voice and reduce the volume of sample 2 and sample 3.

I drew a little sketch showing what i mean. So we can approach some sort of compromise, but no real megavoice....

pj, now it's your turn. ;)

Uli
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 07:24:31 AM by voodoo »
Yamaha PSR-S970 (sold)
Yamaha Genos (ordered)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline voodoo

Re: Create MegaVoices for the PSR S970
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2017, 07:32:49 AM »
For completeness:

We have the touch sense parameter for the whole voice (see screenshot) in the common part. Here we can "compress" the velocity range from 0-127 to for example 100-127. But this applies always to all voice elements. What we need is to apply a shift to touch sense different to each voice element.
Yamaha PSR-S970 (sold)
Yamaha Genos (ordered)
Nord Electro 5D
 

Offline pjd

Re: Create MegaVoices for the PSR S970
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2017, 11:16:27 AM »
Hi Uli --

Beautiful analysis!

Yeah, attempts at Mega Voice via YEM will remain deficient until Yamaha gives us per-element AMP sensitivity control in YEM.

I've got to update the lesson on my site. (Too much Genos madness.  :P )

Thanks for analyzing this -- pj