Author Topic: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR  (Read 1905 times)

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Offline Jeff Hollande

INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« on: January 11, 2017, 02:43:20 AM »
Hi Guys,

Plse do not shoot the piano player !  :D

As usual there are a lot of rumors and speculations.   ::)
Some of them are very bizarre like the following one.  :-\

Genos :
- complete new Style Structure.
- older Styles : no longer usable.     

This must be a joke, right ?

Maybe it is time and very useful Yamaha should start to tell the world - step by step - more about their new highend kb.


Jeff





« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 07:37:06 AM by Jeff Hollande »
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Offline EileenL

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Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2017, 05:11:43 AM »
As I always say don't believe all you hear. Some take delight in starting rumours to get people going.
  I can not see Yamaha not letting old style be usable on a new keyboard without some sort of conversion if needed.
  We have a long way to go before we hear any official news.

Online Del B

Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2017, 05:30:42 AM »
Jeff
I heard this about 18 -22 months ago I thought at the time when I just purchased my T5 and already I hear they are going to change the whole ball game.
I was told also that the voicing structure would change, so the Genos will be a totally different beast, and if you like what you already have, keep your existing keyboard and get the Genos as a second keyboard because the Genos will not have it.
All I can say is that the Genos will be a remarkable instrument to top the T5 - and we all have to wait and see when it is launched.

Del
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 05:37:12 AM by Del B »

Offline pjd

Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2017, 05:46:52 AM »
Hi Jeff --

Hmmm, I think this information is half right. Yamaha have patented (and published) several patents on accompaniment using both MIDI and audio parts. The audio parts include "melodic" instruments, not just rhythm as we have now. I've included the title and abstract from one of the patents below. If someone is interested, just go to the US Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) site and plug in the patent number.

Given that current styles are MIDI-based, I suspect that they will be compatible with the new accompaniment generator. Yamaha would be crazy to abandoned the wealth of current content which they have developed and accumulated. If there is a major change, it will be driven by a doubling of the current tone generator polyphony -- maybe more MIDI tracks -- and insert effects on all parts. That would be pretty hot in itself.

All the best -- pj

P.S. I remain somewhat skeptical of anything short of an official announcement by Yamaha, BTW.


US patent number 9,147,388 Automatic performance technique using audio waveform data
          September 29, 2015
          Based on JP PA 2012-142891 filed 26 June 2012

Combined audio and MIDI accompaniment.
Audio waveforms are used as accompaniment patterns in addition to MIDI.
Audio and MIDI lose synchronization (i.e., timing error accumulates) when
the audio waveforms are time-stretched.

In order to address the aforementioned prior art problem, a more sophisticated
technique has been proposed, which generates tones on the basis of audio
waveforms and tones generator on the basis of MIDI data in synchronism with
each other. Technique handles variable tempo synchonization of audio and MIDI.
Waveform data includes reference time position information corresponding to
reference timing and correction time position information.

« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 06:06:23 AM by pjd »

Offline voodoo

Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2017, 06:39:48 AM »
Genos :
- complete new Style Structure.
- older Styles : no longer usable.     
This must be joke, right ?

First of all, I do not believe anything from rumors....  8)

But nothing is impossible. They have changed the format for Voice and Style Expansions completely from YEP to YEM, but obviously they have a tool to convert the content, so up to date all YEP expansions for the PSR-S are also available in the new YEM format. So the same is possible for changes in the style format.

And everyone is complaining about the restrictions of the current style format (only 16 midi channels because of SMF format 0, no user friendly access to chord specific variations, only 1 measure for fills, etc. ). So a major change in style format could be possible.

Uli
PSR-S970 player

Offline J. Larry

Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2017, 07:17:51 AM »
Maybe, just maybe, Yamaha can catch up with Band In A Box, by providing realistic-sounding styles, played on real instruments by professional musicians, with improvisational solos available for good measure.

Offline Jeff Hollande

Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2017, 07:53:19 AM »
Thank you, Guys !

We may say then important changes will take place in 2017.
The end of the Tyros Dynasty is near and the new Genos will take over the Power
after a period of 15 Tyros years. 😀

Jeff
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 08:11:05 AM by Jeff Hollande »
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Offline guitpic1

Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2017, 08:17:35 AM »
If I was Yamaha corp. I would leak a rumor or two.  Might keep folks from buying a competitors product even if Yammie doesn't have anything new on the horizon.

 :)
guitpic1

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Offline Joe H

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Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2017, 08:27:33 AM »
Combined audio and MIDI accompaniment.
Audio waveforms are used as accompaniment patterns in addition to MIDI.
Audio and MIDI lose synchronization (i.e., timing error accumulates) when
the audio waveforms are time-stretched.

In order to address the aforementioned prior art problem, a more sophisticated
technique has been proposed, which generates tones on the basis of audio
waveforms and tones generator on the basis of MIDI data in synchronism with
each other.

This would be a real waste of time and energy.  The quality of sound of the keyboard and styles can be accomplished with better samples (maybe AWM 3)  After all... MIDI Voices ARE audio samples.  Seems to me the only point in creating audio melodic style parts is to reduce the ability to exchange styles or even edit them.

Yamaha has done a great job on advancing and implementing the MIDI specification to make realistic and expressive music.  Examples are the VL (Virtual Acoustic), FM and analog synth engines as well as SA and SA2 Voices. What is the point of abandoning MIDI for REX2 type audio samples for the non-drum style parts other than to inhibit or limit our ability to share styles.

IMHO    ;D

Joe H
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Offline Bachus

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Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2017, 08:38:12 AM »
Hi Guys,

Plse do not shoot the piano player !  :D

As usual there are a lot of rumors and speculations.   ::)
Some of them are very bizarre like the following one.  :-\

Genos :
- complete new Style Structure.
- older Styles : no longer usable.     

This must be a joke, right ?

Maybe it is time and very useful Yamaha should start to tell the world - step by step - more about their new highend kb.


Jeff


I can imagine a new style structure would work best if not ainiming for compatibillity with the old one..  this allows so much more freedom when developing something better


But this would be just like Microsoft upgrading to windows 8 throwing away the old desktop.. Yamaha should learn from this..


The solution to this is actually not that hard... the instrument should have 2 sepperate style players, one for the new stuff, and one for the old styles...  since the core of the instrument is software based, its quite easy to program..     

Life is like a box of chocolats, you never know what you are gonna get, so enjoy them all.

Offline Joe H

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Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2017, 09:12:50 AM »
To create a new style format would mean to change from the MIDI Type 0 file format to MIDI Type 1 format.  This would allow major possibilities for style variations.

Why? ...  because Type 0 only uses 1 track and 16 channels.  Type 1 can use 64 tracks (for variations) or more and the same 16 channels.  This all looks good on paper, but are you willing to $20.00 USD for a style? Having creating many styles now myself, I can say it is a LOT of work just using 16 channels on 1 track.  To add the possibility of 64 or more variations would require an enormous amount of programming and time.

There is no need to change the format... just learn how to use the keyboard.  Using different versions of the same style along with Multi Pads in registration banks will get you the same results... maybe even better than creating a new bloated style format!

Joe H
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 09:16:36 AM by Joe H »
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Offline Roger57

Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2017, 09:34:54 AM »
We're getting older and many technologies are moving forward exponentially yamaha is no exception yes backwards compabilities is a issue I'm sure work this out ...the whole point not to be too far behind like a decade (isn't that  what we see now) so nobody panic world millennium are moving to market and moving things just at faster rate ...personally I love the improvements and try not ever look back.
Most terms and technologies today may be defunct or obsolete but we should never lose the fundamentals specially in its basic principals and accept lesser of  it....if that would be the...the world would be a lot better place.

Regards
Roger57
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Offline Bachus

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Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2017, 10:09:19 AM »
To create a new style format would mean to change from the MIDI Type 0 file format to MIDI Type 1 format.  This would allow major possibilities for style variations.

Why? ...  because Type 0 only uses 1 track and 16 channels.  Type 1 can use 64 tracks (for variations) or more and the same 16 channels.  This all looks good on paper, but are you willing to $20.00 USD for a style? Having creating many styles now myself, I can say it is a LOT of work just using 16 channels on 1 track.  To add the possibility of 64 or more variations would require an enormous amount of programming and time.

There is no need to change the format... just learn how to use the keyboard.  Using different versions of the same style along with Multi Pads in registration banks will get you the same results... maybe even better than creating a new bloated style format!

Joe H

Better styles do not require more tracks...

Better styles, could require a whole different structure, not midi based at all, but totally based on AI, which means the styles can step away from being fully pattern based... giving youna much more dynamic performance...

We are often bound inside the limitations of our own imagination... 


Fully dynamic accompanyment...  that might be what they are working on, tough it could also be fully audio based accompaniment, which is actually the opposite of fully dynamic...


Only time will tell..
Life is like a box of chocolats, you never know what you are gonna get, so enjoy them all.

Offline Joe H

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Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2017, 11:47:48 AM »
Better styles do not require more tracks...

Better styles, could require a whole different structure, not midi based at all, but totally based on AI, which means the styles can step away from being fully pattern based... giving youna much more dynamic performance...

We are often bound inside the limitations of our own imagination... 


Fully dynamic accompanyment...  that might be what they are working on, tough it could also be fully audio based accompaniment, which is actually the opposite of fully dynamic...


Only time will tell..

Bachus,

Let's agree that we can disagree on this topic.  I don't advocate more tracks.  People who see limitations just don't understand how Yamaha designed their arranger keyboard.  Just about every claim here of the need for more of this... or more of that is based on ignorance of the Yamaha arranger architecture.

With MIDI based styles we can edit them to our heart's content.  I bought a MIDI keyboard and that's what I want to keep using...  MIDI.    For people who don't know MIDI they may not get where I'm coming from. 

Forget the DAW in a keyboard idea.  The more we move towards audio styles the less editing capability we will have or the more complex it will become do that.  What's the point.  If it ain't broke... don't fix it; just keep improving it.

Joe H
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 02:37:35 PM by Joe H »
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Offline Bachus

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Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2017, 02:40:24 PM »
Bachus,

Let's agree that we can disagree on this topic.  I don't advocate more tracks.  People who see limitations just don't understand how Yamaha designed their arranger keyboard.  Just about every claim here for the need for more of this... or more of that is based on ignorance of the Yamaha arranger architecture.

With MIDI based styles we can edit them to our heart's content.  I bought a MIDI keyboard and that's what I want to keep using...  MIDI.    For people who don't know MIDI they may not get where I'm coming from. 

Forget the DAW in a keyboard idea.  The more we move towards audio styles the less editing capability we will have or the more complex it will become do that.  What's the point.  If it ain't broke... don't fix it; just keep improving it.

Joe H

We might not agree... disagreeing is not a bad thing...

Indo agree however that there is nothing wrong with. Current arrangers, they have never been so good, and i love plaing mine, every minute...


I am not so much looking forward to a new arranger, as current day arrangers Tyros5, pa4x are near perfect for playing an arranger, and i dont think many of todays arranger players actually require anything not possible with a Tyros5 or a PA4x...  because both are still mindblowing. (Altough yamaha showed us with the cvp709 and the psr s970 how they can still improve the concept of an arranger, and then there are certain things Korg or Ketron are doing better then Yamaha) lots of room for improvement of the current concept..

No, i am hoping for a high end stagepiano/workstation with fullfledged added arranger features..  everything on board...  i know we disagree, but i dont like having to use a computer to create anything, i would like to use tools inside the keyboard..


But now, inthink i have been talking gibberish for most people that read this... 
Life is like a box of chocolats, you never know what you are gonna get, so enjoy them all.

Offline EileenL

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Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2017, 03:20:35 PM »
I am with you in that I never use a computer to do things on my keyboard. It is all there in the keyboard for you if you take the time to look and understand. That is part of the fun of owning these keyboards.

Offline Joe H

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Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2017, 04:03:44 PM »
(Altough yamaha showed us with the cvp709 and the psr s970 how they can still improve the concept of an arranger, and then there are certain things Korg or Ketron are doing better then Yamaha) lots of room for improvement of the current concept...

Well Bachus, there is no question that we agree on that idea.  And I must say that the more I learn about my Yamaha keyboard... the more I like it.

 :)

Joe H
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Offline Jeff Hollande

Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2017, 02:46:37 AM »
Hi,

Up to now not all can be done in the keyboard. At least I cannot.
Regulary I need pc programs to make my arranger keyboard life more pleasant and colourful.

GENOS NEW VOICING - AND STYLING STRUCTURE
It would be very sad if we could no longer use any of those great, free, plug and play tools made and updated by our Magicians ( like Michael B, Joergen S and all other Friends )... Cross my fingers though. :-\

Jeff

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Offline DerekA

Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2017, 04:47:57 AM »
It seems most likely to me that they'll expand the 'audio styles' concept so that any part can be a recorded audio loop (using their time-stretching and pitch-shifting knowhow) rather than just the percussion part as at present (which doesn't need pitch shifting).

Changes to the style format might include being able to record triggers for those audio parts within the MIDI data - as many people have found out, presently if you record an audio style in a MIDI song the rhythm part is just blank.
S770

Offline Roger57

Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2017, 11:12:43 AM »
Everybody Hi
Looking at all those comments and opinions and future of it thinking all aspects that  Yamaha has to consider when conceiving these keyboards mind bogling isn't it.

Regards
Roger57
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Offline J. Larry

Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2017, 11:34:20 AM »
Yes, all these speculations and suggestions would make for one fabulous, upgraded arranger, if everything was implemented, as dreamed about and wished for.  I wonder----will Yamaha outpace its older generation of dedicated buyers by going more high tech, with features that the “sit and play” group (possibly) don’t want, don’t care for, and won’t use?  Or, do they move forward, with younger players in mind, who are technically savvy, like many on this forum?  Maybe, we’ll find out soon.

Offline Roger57

Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2017, 12:32:41 PM »
Still with all these comments and opinions and wants and then future secret technologies that we don't know about and improvements to consider is quite staggering to say the least. Better quality signals more parameter control at least what where going to see AMW 2 better processing more balance signaling HQ to SHQ would greatly improve it.
If Montage indication cleaner clearer and more balance samples.

Getting better perhaps way better!

Regards
Roger57
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Offline browzer

Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2017, 01:36:20 AM »
I’m sure there will be improvements and additions that suit some people but also convinced that not long after the release of the keyboard the forum will be full of comments telling Yamaha where they have went wrong and what they should have added. Personally I’m really looking forward to this release but if the system has been updated or changed so much that it does not have backward compatibility with my S-970 and Tyros 4 then I won’t be interested as I’d have to start from scratch sorting out the 600-700 songs/tunes I already have set up in styles, registrations and Music Finder entries.

Ronnie
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Offline Roger57

Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2017, 02:02:17 AM »
So true Browzer
Your right talk about what is right what wrong...what would of done not done the world goes round until somebody or someone stop it but what the hell..seem we get ahead then we fall behind again with next new keyboard....hoping more and better but we like it and love it so we do it and hoping and aspiring for better and better with all these tweaks  adjustments and fiddling until we get it just right we learning  what we did wrong and somewhere between all therse endless hours frustration we enjoy it ....finally we get just right setup perfect and then ...new improve models comes out...now we start all over again....but we love we create and that what it's all about

Regards
Roger57
« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 02:18:14 AM by Roger57 »
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Offline Jeff Hollande

Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2017, 03:51:12 AM »
I wonder if Yamaha will show the Genos to their USA Dealers during the Namm ? 8)

Jeff
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Offline maartenb

Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2017, 04:25:12 AM »
THE CREDIBILITY OF RUMORS
  • 100% - If someone has actually laid their hands on the Genos and says something about it, I believe her/him.
  • 100% - If Martin Harris says something about the Genos, I believe him. (He just doesn't say something before the instrument comes out, though...  ;))
  • 100% - Yamaha teasers. These just don't contain much information, though.
  • 90% - If a Yamaha demonstrator like Ian House, Peter Baartmans or Michel Voncken says something, I consider it to probably be true.
  • 60% - If a shop owner says something, I take it with a grain of salt.
  • 1% - Everybody else. It's just too easy to start rumours, like "I heard that the next TOTL arranger will be lime green."  ;)

SOURCES FOR SPECULATION
As much as I love my Tyros 5, I also love to speculate about the next model. But in a serious, sincere manner. Some sources I use (in random order):
  • Newer Yamaha models, like the PSR-S970 and the Montage. They show a possible future, like Dance styles, arpeggiators, extra turn knobs (PSR-S970), and touch screen, new operating system, separate analog circuit board, new interface (Montage)
  • Yamaha behaviour in the past - This could enable me to extrapolate into the future
  • Trademarks - This predicted the "Reface" series, the "Montage" synthesizer and (highly probably IMHO) the "Genos" arranger.
  • Paul's (pjd) articles on his website SSS and his posts on this forum. Paul dissects the technical architecture of Yamaha instruments which sheds light on possible technical future. He also translates long Yamaha patents into plain and short English, which is a huge time saver.
  • Industry/economy standards - For example, it is economical sound to change a line of instruments after 12-15 years, so I expect the Tyros 5 to be the last of the Tyros series.
  • My own computer and technical knowledge :)

SURPRISES
When pictures were leaked from the Tyros 5 presentation in Spain in 2013, I concluded after careful examination that they were real and that they depicted indeed the Tyros 5. This turned out to be true.

On the other hand Yamaha have managed to surprise me multiple times: I didn't expect the Reface to be what they are, I really thought the Tyros 4 was the last one of the Tyros line and I didn't expect Music in Motion in the Montage, etc.


CONCLUSION
I like the game of predictions, because I like the arranger concept very much and I would like for it to reach the highest results and musical fun. The Yamaha team is smart and I trust that the Genos will be great!

To answer the original post that started this thread:
- complete new style structure: Yes, I believe so
- older styles - no longer usable: No. This is as believable as a lime green Genos. ;)
Subject INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR: No. And certainly not in capital letters!  ;) However, the post managed to trigger a long and active thread, so I am not the only one to fall for it and respond. Well played, Jeff...  ;)

Maarten

Offline Jeff Hollande

Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2017, 04:50:06 AM »
Thank you for your very interesting reply, Maarten !  :)

If older ( midi ) styles might not be usable ( I really hope you are right though ) I may hope Yamaha will add a conversion prog.

Best wishes, Jeff

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Offline Lloyd E

Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2017, 06:06:41 AM »
Yamaha will notify us when the next Tyros (Genos) is available and not ONE minute sooner. Stay Cool. Lloyd ;D

Offline Joe H

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Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2017, 08:20:17 AM »
It's likely that Yamaha is going to expand on the audio style format by including audio parts other than the audio drums.  (which I will have no interest in)

The current MIDI Type 0 style format will continue sure as the sun is coming up tomorrow.

Joe H
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Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2017, 11:24:59 AM »
I wonder if Yamaha will show the Genos to their USA Dealers during the Namm ? 8)

Jeff

I wouldn't expect that Yamaha will be showing the Genos at the Winter NAMM next week unless they're planning to release it to the market sometime between the Winter NAMM and Musikmesse.

Likewise, I wouldn't expect them to be showing it at Musikmesse in April unless they're planning to release it to the market sometime between Musikmesse and the Summer NAMM.

If-- if-- the Genos is probably going to be released to the market in September, as some members have speculated, then I would expect Yamaha to be showing it no earlier than at the Summer NAMM.
Michael Rideout
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Offline pjd

Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2017, 12:21:21 PM »
Hi Maarten --

Thanks for the kind words! I'm in the process of writing a short summary of recent Yamaha patents applied for and granted. As you mentioned, it takes a while to dig through this stuff! I'll probably start a different thread for comments when the blog is ready.

Hi Joe --

While reading, I came across four motivations for full audio styles:

  • The ability to produce "actual musical instrument performance, human voices, natural sounds"
  • To play "automatic accompaniment in which musical tones of an ethnic musical instrument or a musical instrument using a peculiar scale"
  • To exhibit the "realism of human live performance"
  • To advance beyond known techniques that "provide automatic performance only of accompaniment phrases of monophony"

I know you're not a fan of this approach -- maybe if your EDM grooves incorporated yodelling? :-)

All the best (time to practice)

-- pj

P.S. I forgot to invite people over. Feel free to explore the site anytime: http://sandsoftwaresound.net
« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 01:12:29 PM by pjd »

Offline Wouter1972

Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2017, 01:00:28 PM »
Fantastic stuff all these different opinions on thoughts and rumours. I'm sure the people over at Yamaha are pleased with all the free publicity, be it true or false.

Wouldn't it be something if Yamaha invited some of you over to come and exchange some ideas face to face? I'm sure this would even help the fanbase raise to an even higher level.

I wouldn't be very helpful though...don't know all the tech lingo, but I do know what I like, hear and see. So far Yamaha hasn't disappointed me. I'm sure the next arranger will live up to many keyboardplayers around. ;D




Offline Joe H

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Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2017, 02:50:30 PM »
Hi Joe --

While reading, I came across four motivations for full audio styles:

  • The ability to produce "actual musical instrument performance, human voices, natural sounds"
  • To play "automatic accompaniment in which musical tones of an ethnic musical instrument or a musical instrument using a peculiar scale"
  • To exhibit the "realism of human live performance"
  • To advance beyond known techniques that "provide automatic performance only of accompaniment phrases of monophony"

I know you're not a fan of this approach -- maybe if your EDM grooves incorporated yodelling? :-)
-- pj

pj,

Honestly... I don't find any of those arguments credible.

Yodelling in EDM performances?... yes I do it all the time... LIVE (me that is) I would NOT count on any WAV file to provide an accurate reproduction of my yodels... ever!   ;D

Regards,
Joe H

PS:  I think the current audio styles are real crap.  With MIDI I can edit the drum kits to produce the sound I want.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 02:53:18 PM by Joe H »
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Offline Joe H

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Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2017, 02:58:14 PM »
pj,

BTW... I like a whole lot more music than EDM.  Classical, Smooth Jazz, Folk, New Age, Gregorian Chants, Hindu Chants, Pop, Celtic folk, Chill Beat, and a lot more.   I'm just producing some EDM styles (and some new Voices) currently because Yamaha hasn't given us anything to write home about.

 ;)

Joe H
« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 03:23:00 PM by Joe H »
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Offline pjd

Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2017, 03:52:38 PM »
Hi Joe --

The combination of yodelling and EDM just seemed sufficiently absurd.  :)

I'm taking kind of a neutral stance about full audio styles. I would like to hear them first. I haven't been too happy so far as 1. Yamaha haven't offered new styles for the S950 through Musicsoft and 2. They aren't so easy to modify and exploit, and 3. Can't be shared.

I agree that Yamaha could broaden their offerings.

Enjoy the weekend -- pj

Offline EileenL

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Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2017, 04:39:15 PM »
Well one of the Alpine packs contains yodelling in the styles and sampled voices.

Yamaha used to invite users up to Milton Keynes to discuss what we would like to see added to the next models and any problems we found on the currant model. The Japanese team would be there as well as Martin Harris. It was always a good day out and I have been quite a few times.

As to Audio Styles I can live without them but I do hope we will see some new styles and multi pads as the currant ones have been around for a long time now.

It is to late to hope for anything else now as all will have been decided a while back. We just have to waite now for the end product.
   

Offline Joe H

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Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2017, 04:45:36 PM »
pj my friend,

My last word(s) on the audio styles is that we not only can't edit the drum parts, we are stuck with those drum parts or else have to copy the style and then create drum parts for the entire style.

Another issue is... that there is a sonic mismatch between the audio samples of those drum / percussion parts and the audio samples of the MIDI Voices. And it doesn't sound good to me.  This doesn't have to be... just improve the MIDI sampling for better high-end frequency response. (though it can probably be done digitally).

Further more... it probably cost a lot more money, time, keyboard memory... and post production processing to produce a style using WAV audio, and that is just for the audio drums not to mention adding audio to any other parts of the style.   So... why would Yamaha pursue that is the big question?   If you like audio... use a computer-based DAW.

The way I see it, we will have far fewer choices of styles, minimal editing capability, and almost zero opportunity to make our own styles if Yamaha were to abandon the MIDI-based style format.

If Yamaha wants to compete with Audya... make a keyboard just like Audya... in other words; keep MIDI and audio as separate beasts (which they are)

OK... I'm done ranting!   ;D

Regards,
Joe H

« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 04:47:29 PM by Joe H »
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Offline Joe H

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Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2017, 04:51:33 PM »
EileenL,

Too bad they don't treat us that way in the USA.  I recently made some suggestions and was told by Tech Support they couldn't forward my ideas to Japan because of "legal issues" (if you want to believe that)

I was also told to post my ideas here because marketing folks at Yamaha were reading this Forum.  (perfect one-way communications)

Regards,
Joe H
« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 04:53:56 PM by Joe H »
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Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2017, 11:39:29 PM »
I am with Joe on the audio styles....and while i do recognise they can sound very good, they are extremely static in nature, they sound exactly the same each time... where in my vision the accompaniment of the future is much much more dynamic where the accompaniment reacts dynamicall to the playstyle of the musician, adding small nuances making it feel much much more dynamic and much much less like a recording thats looped in the background...

On top of that, you cant edit audio tracks like you can edit midi tracks...  a good example of advanced edditing of drums that i would like to see yamaha add is the drumset edditor of the Korg pa4x, its brilliant, every drum set is divided in 8 main sound cattegories, to which the drumsounds are added, you can edit each of these cattegories (volume, effects etc) on the fly...  it works really well for addapting styles to your personal needs..


I am with Joe on this....

(And yes i do agree that current Ketron audio styles are among the best sounding styles, this however is not because of the audio parts, but mostly about the arrangements Ketron uses)

(Also people telling me, that audio drums are played by a real drummer and so sound more alive, well you can also have midi drums played by a real drummer)


While audio drums sound like the best possible way to come close to the orriginal, in fact they are a step backwards where it comes to creativity, and espescially with drums, a good midi drumset can sound as brilliant as a live played drum session...
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Offline Jeff Hollande

Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2017, 12:47:30 AM »
Hi Joe,

Your comments are very interesting and very useful.
Thank you very much !

Jeff
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Offline pjd

Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2017, 07:23:09 AM »
Hi folks --

I'm trying to be a neutral reporter about Yamaha's technical work. As I said, I'm delaying judgement until I can hear the results and assess the usability of full audio styles as they are implemented in the actual product.

That said, a couple of points.

I think Yamaha realizes that there are "sync problems" between free flowing, naturally played drum and "melodic" phrases and the more rigid timing often imposed by MIDI. (Yeah, yeah, a crafted, dense tempo track could improve sync.) By "sync" I mean that sense of incompatible feel when phrases don't line up temporally. A lot of the technical complexity in their patents comes from synchronization methods to eliminate temporal incompatibility which leads to bad feel.

Reflecting on Yamaha's VOCALOID, etc., they seem to have a great respect for the human voice. I suspect there is a real desire to make greater use of the human voice in arranger products. Sure, people can add WAV multi-pads, but not everyone wants to do their own sampling and WAV editing.

The point about ethnic instruments and peculiar scales is a valid one, especially if you're a musician whose ethnic music depends on such things. There was a long thread not long ago about improvements to portamento. Also, very unusual time signatures come to mind like Balkan music:  5/8, 7/16, 11/16, 25/16. (How 'bout the Don Ellis Electric Bath era?) The world is a big place musically!

All the best to ya -- pj

Offline Bachus

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Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2017, 07:49:28 AM »
I am with Joe on the audio styles....and while i do recognise they can sound very good, they are extremely static in nature, they sound exactly the same each time... where in my vision the accompaniment of the future is much much more dynamic where the accompaniment reacts dynamicall to the playstyle of the musician, adding small nuances making it feel much much more dynamic and much much less like a recording thats looped in the background...

On top of that, you cant edit audio tracks like you can edit midi tracks...  a good example of advanced edditing of drums that i would like to see yamaha add is the drumset edditor of the Korg pa4x, its brilliant, every drum set is divided in 8 main sound cattegories, to which the drumsounds are added, you can edit each of these cattegories (volume, effects etc) on the fly...  it works really well for addapting styles to your personal needs..


I am with Joe on this....

(And yes i do agree that current Ketron audio styles are among the best sounding styles, this however is not because of the audio parts, but mostly about the arrangements Ketron uses)

(Also people telling me, that audio drums are played by a real drummer and so sound more alive, well you can also have midi drums played by a real drummer)


While audio drums sound like the best possible way to come close to the orriginal, in fact they are a step backwards where it comes to creativity, and espescially with drums, a good midi drumset can sound as brilliant as a live played drum session...
Life is like a box of chocolats, you never know what you are gonna get, so enjoy them all.

Offline Joe H

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Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2017, 09:06:56 AM »
The point about ethnic instruments and peculiar scales is a valid one, especially if you're a musician whose ethnic music depends on such things. There was a long thread not long ago about improvements to portamento. Also, very unusual time signatures come to mind like Balkan music:  5/8, 7/16, 11/16, 25/16. (How 'bout the Don Ellis Electric Bath era?) The world is a big place musically!
All the best to ya -- pj

I believe these issues are addressed in the PSR A3000... which also includes a Joystick rather than Pitch Bend and Modulation wheels.  Yamaha has got it covered.

Joe H
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Offline J. Larry

Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2017, 08:44:37 PM »
Just as pjd has the skill to analyze Yamaha’s patent applications, how about something like this:  If, indeed, a new Yamaha arranger(s) appear, how about some clever person on this forum, with the interest, skill, wherewithal, knowledge, etc. summarizing all of the major speculations, guesses, wishes, requests, etc. and comparing all that to what actually shows up in the final product?  It might be interesting to see if Yamaha is reading this forum, listening, or doing otherwise.  The results might be instructive about speculation and anticipation on future releases.  I’ve noticed, too, where several posters have followed closely Yamaha’s pattern of previous arranger releases.  That’s helpful, too, in knowing about when a new product might appear.

Offline maartenb

Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #44 on: Yesterday at 05:17:22 AM »
Impossible. The line between "objective speculation" and "wish list" is very thin. Besides, with speculation only a very small part of the new instrument can be discovered. I've heard nobody expect "Ensemble Voices" for example. And with the likely change of the Tyros line to a new Genos line (IMHO) all bets are off.


Maarten

Offline Joe H

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Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #45 on: Yesterday at 07:36:18 AM »
On the other hand... some of us expressed serious interest in the arpeggiator and Liver Control features which we argued were already on the low-end arrangers.  Why would these not be on the $2000 keyboards?  And... now they are there.

I can't say Yamaha did that because of posts on this forum or others, but we will never know for sure.  Another example is with the YEM software.  Yamaha added the ability to change the LSB on User Packs after the issue was posted here.

Recently I was told to post my ideas for future arranger upgrades on this forum because Yamaha Marketing Managers were reading our threads.

 ???

Joe H
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 07:37:30 AM by Joe H »
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Offline FredrikC

Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #46 on: Yesterday at 08:27:04 AM »
Impossible. The line between "objective speculation" and "wish list" is very thin. Besides, with speculation only a very small part of the new instrument can be discovered. I've heard nobody expect "Ensemble Voices" for example. And with the likely change of the Tyros line to a new Genos line (IMHO) all bets are off.


Maarten

You could require that all posts contain a hashtag for #speculation and #wishlist.  (Of course, you'll probably also need a #satire hashtag.)
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Offline Bachus

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Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #47 on: Yesterday at 11:17:12 AM »
You could require that all posts contain a hashtag for #speculation and #wishlist.  (Of course, you'll probably also need a #satire hashtag.)

I dont think thats a bad idea at all
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Offline pjd

Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #48 on: Yesterday at 12:36:49 PM »
Hi --

Doesn't look like Yamaha announced very much in the electronic keyboard realm at NAMM 2017. Just:

"Aspiring musicians need portable, affordable playing/learning keyboards for developing their skills. The new Yamaha PSR-E263 and the PSR-E363 are the latest additions to America’s best-selling line of portable keyboards, with the PSR-E363 being the most affordable in the series to feature touch-sensitive keys."

BTW, I call dibs on the #sarcasm hashtag. :-)

Take care -- pj

Offline Bachus

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Re: INCREDIBLE GENOS RUMOR
« Reply #49 on: Yesterday at 12:43:15 PM »
Hi --

Doesn't look like Yamaha announced very much in the electronic keyboard realm at NAMM 2017. Just:

"Aspiring musicians need portable, affordable playing/learning keyboards for developing their skills. The new Yamaha PSR-E263 and the PSR-E363 are the latest additions to America’s best-selling line of portable keyboards, with the PSR-E363 being the most affordable in the series to feature touch-sensitive keys."

BTW, I call dibs on the #sarcasm hashtag. :-)

Take care -- pj

A new OS for the montage, thats what i expected, tough i tought it would be a bigger one.. with more new features...
Life is like a box of chocolats, you never know what you are gonna get, so enjoy them all.