Changing chord accompaniment without using left hand

[Amaravadi]

I can't play chords with my left hand....!!!
Nothing wrong with my hand, it is just that I play the melody part with both my hands.

Then how do I change chord accompaniment? 

When I bought the S900, I thought the 'AI FULL KEYBOARD' feature will do the trick, but the results are not even passable - most of the time the accompaniment gets stuck at the same note/chord while I play on - in other words the accompaniment does not match the melody.

Is there any other way to get the accompaniment without using the left part?  One way could be to pre-record the style accompaniment, then play the track in the background while playing the melody live.  But this could be cumbersome and moreover, I will have to record many style-only songs to play in the background.

I hope I have explained my problem clearly.

I would greatly appreciate if anyone could give a solution.

[Flip]

I'll have to admit...your post confused me.  I never heard of anyone playing the melody part on both ends of a KB.  But I think if yous set the split point up and use either the single or multi finger chord selection you will get the results you want.....don't forget to activate the "Accom" button.  I don't if this helps or hurts but based on what you posted I can't see any other way to accomplish your need.   Flip

[MBedesem]

You can make a midi to trigger the style by using the StepChord function of the SongCreator. I.e you enter in the chords that you want at the time that you want, then Expand with a style of your choice to make a midi that triggers the style.  You can also use the PC  MixMaster (http://psrtutorial.com/MB/bedesem.html) to make the entering process faster.

You can also use a midi file to control the style accompaniment:

Load a midi song, select a style that you want to use, and turn Acmp On. Then go to Vocal Harmony/ Mic Settings and select Mode=Chord and a chord source. For PSR midis channel 13, Chord 1, is usually good. (For other midis, look at the voice assignments in Mixing Console and pick either a piano or guitar or vocal assignment.)

These settings look at the notes on ch 13 as if they were being played live by the left hand, and thus it triggers the style that you have selected. Exit from Mic Setting (Important!), hit Play midi and then depress Acmp Start.

Note that there is a separate channel setting for the source of Vocal Harmony. Also, since the midi player is busy playing the file, you cannot record in the instrument using this method.

Another method is to play a midi externally.

The PSRs can use midi data entering via the midi data input to determine what chord is played by the accompaniment section. To set this up, go to Function/Utility/Midi/All Parts/Edit/ Chord tabs and select the midi channel that will have the note data to be analyzed for triggering chords.

Select a style. To Play only, with Accompaniment On, start the midi and then hit style Start.

To record the midi and accompaniment, select a style. .Then turn on ACMP and Style Synch/Start blinking.

Now press the REC and PLAY buttons to arm for recording. Turn off the REC for channels 1 through 8.

Press the MIDI start button to start the song playing. The style will start when it detects chords from the song and the style parts will be recorded to the MIDI.

(from the soon to be released 2012 PSRFAQ)

Regards,

Michael

[Jackuar]

Are you having your accompaniment section set in "Multi-fingered" mode by any chance? That will require you to play the chords in left hand to change them....

If that's the case, change it to single-finger mode--- you can change chords by simply pressing the root (For Major), Root plus Black key to the left (For minor), Root plus White key to left (For 7th) etc. Hope you know these combinations; otherwise, the Keyboard manual will have a page where the shortcuts for each chord combination is given. You can refer that. This method will still require usage of your left hand but may be 2 or 3 fingers at the max - giving you the benefit of controlling both the chording and melody playing at the left hand.

But there's a huge dowside here - you can't use your accompaniment split section for playing melody: All you can do it, move your left hand quickly over the acmp section, press these shortcuts to effect the chord change, and resume your left-hand-melody asap - if you understand what I mean. You may choose to reduce the split point to just one octave instead of the default 1-and-a-half, if you want more keys for your left-hand melody.

Hope this helps!

[Flip]

Michael, all I can say is WOW!   No wonder you are a Professor.   I'd love to go to a studio where one of our "experts" could give a hands on lesson on how to navigate the many features of the T4.  I'd gladly pay for the lessons.....the T4 is one hell of a KB and I have hardly touched on what it can do.   There are many, many features not fully explained or detailed in the manual.  I keep reading the site posts and gradually find something I did not either know about or fully understand.  Oh well......I keep learning little by little.
Flip

[mikf]

Can you describe what you mean by playing the melody part with both your hands. The melody is just one note at a time, so how do you use both hands?
Mike

[macmike]

I play manual left hand bass on everything. I couldn't play a chord with my left hand unless I took a long time...too slow for any good results. I learned keyboards from the start this way.
So I needed to set it up so the right hand would would steer the styles. I use the Full Keyboard setting with a split point for this and it seems to work well.
I don't know if this is what you want to do. But experimentation will eventually get you what you probably want I would assume.

[Amaravadi]

Thanks for all ur replies.

First, let me clarify.  I play the melody part with both my hands - not at both ends of the KB.  Of-course, it is mostly one note at a time, but I play some notes with right hand and some notes with my left hand.  So my left hand cant control the style accompaniment.  And no, I didnt select the MULTI-FINGERED option.

@macmike - Can I fix split point in 'FULL KEYBOARD' mode? I thought the full keyboard setting means no split point.  But if it is possible, then it is the best solution I suppose.  Pl clarify.

@ eBedesem (Michel) - Thanks for your very useful lesson.  Getting a midi in the background to steer the style is a great idea.  I am grateful for your detailed explanation.  But then, I will have to record a midi as a background for every song.  So I cant play spontaneously with accompaniment.  I just don't know why the melody part (right-hand part) cant steer the style accompaniment, if I select the 'AI FULL KEYBOARD'.

I would welcome any more ideas.  Thanks once again.

[Fred Smith]

I just don't know why the melody part (right-hand part) cant steer the style accompaniment, if I select the 'AI FULL KEYBOARD'.

Your problem is that it is very difficult for a keyboard to figure out the chord from just the melody. Very often, the melody includes notes that aren't in the chord, so it's impossible to determine the chord properly. That's why even the most simple sheet music has the melody plus the chord.

AI Full Keyboard mode is meant for piano style players, where they are playing a lot more than the melody. In addition to the melody, they are playing accompanying notes which are almost always part of the chord, which allows the keyboard to figure out the chord properly.

As I see it, your choices are:
* Learn to play a chord in the left hand
* Use Michael's ideas on midi files

Hope this helps,
Fred.

[macmike]

"@macmike - Can I fix split point in 'FULL KEYBOARD' mode? I thought the full keyboard setting means no split point.  But if it is possible, then it is the best solution I suppose.  Pl clarify."

Yes, with the Full Keyboard mode, you can select a split point and play a different voice on the 'Left' of the split. And if you play anything close to a chord, i.e.major or minor,on the right side, the style will get it's info and be 'steered' as you play with the right hand. But if you only play melody notes on the right, the keyboard can't work the style. At least play a chord there as your first note(s)...that might help.  I always select a bass sound for my left side but you can select any voice you want instead. Oh, and the Left button must be lit...don't forget that :-) I hope this is helpful.

[mikf]

Fred is right, you cant just play a melody and expect anything to work out the harmony - even a brilliant musician could not do that, never mind a machine, because the harmony options are endless. What the artificial intelligence on the keyboard can do is use logic to work out out what chord is likely coming next based on well known sequences even if you dont play it properly, but it cannot work from no information at all.
I hate to say it but if you have gone to the trouble of buying a fairly expensive S900 but can only play with one finger than maybe you have the cart before the horse. Dont worry about how to make the keyboard do all the work at this stage, start learning to play keyboard to at least a basic level.
Mike   

[Flip]

Don't get discouraged...I have a 900 and a T4.  Go to page 107 of the 900 user manual.....give it a serious dedicated look.....it might be the answer you are lookin for.  Its worth a try.......Flip  Like everyone else who has responded to your post I can't understand how you can play the way described it.  I hope it works out for you...the 900 is a great KB.

[macmike]

Sorry, but I don't feel that that is good advice to re-learn to play in the mold of how most players play.
I have been playing in an un orthodox way for years and I play professionally.
If you want to play like I suggested, then play that way and don't listen to nay sayers.
Remember, that you just need to supply some type of chord information on the right side to make the style work for you.

This keyboard is very forgivable in that regard. I think you'd be surprised at what control of the style you can get away with on the right side.
This is a world of left hand chorders and right hand melody players. It is definitely a minority of people who play differently.

I think, though, that if you can play with both hands the way you do that is a great thing. If that's the way you like it, continue. Don't let anyone tell you different.
I have seen people with seemingly closed minds here. Maybe they need to see people play in other ways to understand.
It's a wonderful thing that this keyboard will allow alternate ways of playing. And there are players who do quite nicely playing that way.

You can always play your way along with midis too but less impromptu.
Remember, different strokes for different folks. And no disrespect to left hand chorders intended.

[Flip]

OK.....it sounds like this is not the Forum for you.  Good luck.  Flip

[Joe H]

macmike,

I second your point of view.  There are over 3200 members on this forum and I'd be willing to bet that how I personally use and play my keyboard is probably totally unique. So I don't even ask many questions that I'd like to.

The reason being... we have "piano players" and we have "keyboard players" and then we have a few "one of a kind" folks that do it "their way"

Some people in this world are just "marching to their own drummer" and that's quite alright with me!

Regards,
Joe H

[Fred Smith]

Macmike,

I don't see how your advice and my advice are any different. As you stated, you have to provide some chord information to the keyboard. The melody alone won't do. That's the key thing that Amarvadi needs to understand. Whether it's your way of supplying chord information, or my way, or from a midi, or any other way, is immaterial. But regardless of the method, he has to do something different from what he is doing now.

Regards,
Fred.

[Bill Grosse]

Isn't it interesting how the old way always seems to come into conflict with new ideas.

My personal feelings about playing any instrument is that as long as I'm paying for it, I will play it as I wish. 
Now that must take into account the family and neighbors ears of course. 

Bill G

[Joe H]

        

Joe H

[macmike]

What I object to is simply trying to tell someone that they should 'relearn' how they play to a playing style that they're not comfortable with.
I was helping Amaravadi to show him how he could play having the right hand do the chord steering. This is very similar as to how I do it and I am very familiar with it.
I would never consider relearning to play LH Chord/RH melody because I am happy playing the way I do.
I was offing him encouragement and not telling him that he has to relearn to play another way.
I offer anyone encouragement to what is possible and never knock how other people play. I was directing my help to Amaravadi and to no one else.
I don't appreciate things being said that I don't belong in this group. I'm done with this post.

[Flip]

Let me say a few parting words re this post....then I to am done with it.  The guy comes to us asking for advice.....we try to help him....then he gets..  anoyed with our input.  I have been a member of the site for a long time....never seen so negative a response to people who are trying to help.  Good by and good luck!  Flip

[Craig Schiller]

Let me say a few parting words re this post....then I to am done with it.  The guy comes to us asking for advice.....we try to help him....then he gets..  anoyed with our input.  I have been a member of the site for a long time....never seen so negative a response to people who are trying to help.  Good by and good luck!  Flip

What are you talking about? I don't see anywhere the OP got "annoyed".

[MBedesem]

Please everyone.....

I do not believe any of the participants in this thread intended to criticize others or their method. On uncharted issues such as this, all possible solutions are welcome, and this forum encourages everyone to participate and share their ideas or experience.

The only judge of what works is the instrument and the ears of the player. I know I will never begin to master all that could be done.

Please do not be mad, and please do not go away over misunderstandings!



FYI: several years ago someone wanted to be able to reverse the left and right hands. It seemed impossible, but we did find a way (eventually). See below (from the PSRFAQ). Who knows, perhaps some melody control is possible...

F.63. How to reverse the left and right hands on the PSR.

1) Enable Right 1 and Left
2) Connect Midi Out to Midi In
3) In Function/Split Point set Acmp=C1 and Left =C3
4) In Function/Midi/Edit/ Receive set Ch1 part = Off and Ch3 Part = Right 1; others can stay as Song
5) In Function/Midi/Edit/ Chord Detect set Ch1 part =On
6) In Function/Midi/Edit/ System set Local =Off for all Right/Left voices
7) Turn Acmp (accompaniment) On using the button on the keyboard

This will direct the Right 1 (Ch 1, right hand) data to the accompaniment section and trigger the current style while the Left data (channel 3, left hand) is used to drive the Right 1. You can change the Right 1 voice and style as you normally would.

Regards,

Michael

[TommyS]

Well put Michael!

    

Tommy

[mikf]

Like Craig, I cant see that the original poster either got annoyed by any of the answers or advice. The person who seemd to get upset was macmike, and actually no-one was arguing with him, so it all seems to be a bit strange. At some point it also seems that Flip got mixed up as to who had asked the question.
Macmike's method can work, and obviously does work, and so do umpteen other methods. If you inpout bass notes on the LH and add some harmony notes in the right, of course it will work. But the OP method was not working and unfortunately for him, there is no way to make it work simply by setting up the keyboard differenly. He will have to change something about the way he plays because he simply does not input enough information to give the keyboard a chance to work out the correct chord sequence. No-one was saying he has to play a classic way, a specific way, or that only one way can drive the accompaniment, just that his current way cannot work - so something has to change.
Mike 

[Fred Smith]

Well said, Mike.

Macmike, please don't go away mad. In rereading my first post, I agree you have a point about the advice, Rather than saying "... In the left hand", I should have simply said "Learn to provide chord information". I agree it doesn't have to be with the left hand. He should do whatever is easiest for him, although it probably would be useful to know that using the left hand is by far the most popular.

I feel the important point is that he has to change what he's doing to achieve what he wants.

Fred.

[Amaravadi]

Hi, everyone,

First of all, let me express my heart-felt appreciation for the various advises provided to overcome my shortcomings.

First, the good part.

Based on the various solutions provided by all of you, I have done the following:
1.  Set the Accomp to 'AI FULL KEYBOARD'
2.  Selected the highest octave possible
3.  Used the transpose function to further raise the pitch by one more octave.
4.  Then play the memody with both hands (as I usually do) on the left part of the KB.
5.  Bingo, the style gets steered albeit in a limited but useful way.

I find that even after changing the split point, only about 2 octaves on the left most part of KB steers the styles without providing chord info.  So, I had to raise the pitch so as to be able to play the melody on the left part of the KB.

Next I will try to exchange the left & right sides of the KB as advised by Michel.

Now, the not-so-good part:

I am extremely pained and regret that my post has caused some misunderstandings, which I am sure nobody intended.  I request Macmike not to go away (its your post that inspired me to find that being unique is also good) and Fred, its your post which makes me understand that one should explore ways outside his own territory and not stick to something.

Thanks once again to all of you great guys. Your posts have helped me find solution to my problem.

[Amaravadi]

Fred is right, you cant just play a melody and expect anything to work out the harmony - even a brilliant musician could not do that, never mind a machine, because the harmony options are endless. What the artificial intelligence on the keyboard can do is use logic to work out out what chord is likely coming next based on well known sequences even if you dont play it properly, but it cannot work from no information at all.
I hate to say it but if you have gone to the trouble of buying a fairly expensive S900 but can only play with one finger than maybe you have the cart before the horse. Dont worry about how to make the keyboard do all the work at this stage, start learning to play keyboard to at least a basic level.
Mike   

Dear Mike,
What I find strange is that even in 'AI FULL KEYBOARD' mode, on the left part, the style accompaniment changes by pressing a single key, but not so on the right part.  On the right part, you need to use two/more keys of the appropriate chord.  I thought in this mode, the entire KB behaves evenly.

But then, I think I am within my rights to expect the KB to perform what it is supposed to. The manual says "When this advanced fingering type (AI FULL KEYBOARD) is engaged, the instrument will automatically create appropriate accompaniment while you play just about anything, anywhere on the keyboard using both hands. You don’t have to worry about specifying the Style chords." That's exactly what I expected it to do, nothing more.

No sir, I dont play with a single finger.  I play with both my hands.  Yes, I admit I am not an expert KB player, though some people say I play fairly good.

What is more, my limited KB skills are no reason for my ears to put up with cheap crap.  So, I bought this S900 which sounds fantastic even with my (not-so-good) playing.  The great sounds on this KB always push me to improve my playing skills.

Best Regards
Amaravadi

[mikf]

Amavaradi
The reason the keyboard acts this way is because normally you would not want the keyboard accompaniment changing chords for every melody note. Most times the chord will stretch over several melody notes. The trick is for it change at the right time.
By 'playing with  single finger' I dont lliterally I dont mean to infer that you are using the same finger, but that you are only inputting one note at a time. The keyboard will attempt to find an accompaniment from this but as you are experiencing, it will not be even reasonably accurate. Maybe the marketing is a bit overstated, but I dont think they expected it to be taken that literally. Think of it this way, - harmony does follow some established patterns, but without any framework the possibilities are endless and if you hum a tune to an accomplished musician he still has no chance of defining the harmony. Actually he wouldnt even know what key from just a series of melody notes unless he recognized the tune. Now its possible that an actual musician would recognise the tune and start to fill in the harmony, but a keyboard is dumb from that perspective. It has only logic, not tune recognition.
Sorry the keyboard is not meeting your expectations - but I think you may be stuck with trying something different. Dont give up, - there are two solutions that both take a bit of work, but worth it.
One is to learn to play the melody with one hand, and a single finger bass note in the left. Then you can use the single fingered chord option. That is really not all that difficutl to learn.
The other is to learn to play at least two notes occssionally in your rh. which will then help the keybpoard to more accurately select a harmony using the AI fingering.
 Mike 

[Fred Smith]

What I find strange is that even in 'AI FULL KEYBOARD' mode, on the left part, the style accompaniment changes by pressing a single key, but not so on the right part.  On the right part, you need to use two/more keys of the appropriate chord.  I thought in this mode, the entire KB behaves evenly.

I agree with Mike that this is by design. As a single right-hand note is a melody note, you don't want this determining the chord because it will more often give you the wrong chord (as melody notes are often not part of the chord). However, a single left-hand note is typically an accompaniment, and always part of the chord, so can be used for chord determination purposes.

What I find interesting is that the keyboard uses middle C as the dividing line in this mode -- it does not use the split point. The split point simply determines where the left hand voice starts.

But then, I think I am within my rights to expect the KB to perform what it is supposed to. The manual says "When this advanced fingering type (AI FULL KEYBOARD) is engaged, the instrument will automatically create appropriate accompaniment while you play just about anything, anywhere on the keyboard using both hands. You don’t have to worry about specifying the Style chords." That's exactly what I expected it to do, nothing more.

You are right to expect the keyboard to perform as advertised, but Yamaha would say that it does. It all comes down to the definition of the word "appropriate". In AI Full Keyboard mode, Yamaha would say you are getting the best accompaniment that can be determined from the keys being played. And from my tests, I would agree. That's not to say it's the best possible chord, just the best that can be determined from the played notes. That's why most people play a specific chord (rather than let the keyboard guess the chord).

Hope this helps,
Fred.

[Amaravadi]

Dear Mike & Fred,

Both of you have aptly described the behaviour of the KB and your points are well taken.  I think now I have a grasp on it - even in 'AI FULL KEYBOARD' mode, the KB still has to assume that I am playing the melody on the right part and supplying chord info on the left part.

No, I am not at all disappointed with the KB.  Its a fantastic KB and as I said in my previous post, I did get most of what I wanted in terms of accompaniment with the help of you all.

I do hope Macmike comes back and say a few words.  I respect his opinion and like his encouragement.

Best Regards
Amaravadi

[Fred Smith]

Both of you have aptly described the behaviour of the KB and your points are well taken.  I think now I have a grasp on it - even in 'AI FULL KEYBOARD' mode, the KB still has to assume that I am playing the melody on the right part and supplying chord info on the left part.

Just to clarify, AI Full Keyboard mode will use right hand notes to determine the chord, depending on the circumstance. For example, if you play only right hand notes (but at least two), that will determine the chord. However, the left hand takes precedence. If you play at least three notes in the left hand, that determines the chord. If you play less than three, then notes in the right hand will be taken in to account.

I experimented with AI Full Keyboard with some of my old piano music, and it worked quite well. However, virtually all of the music I have is chording in the left hand with melody as the top right hand note with some additional accompaniment notes below it. I suspect this is the type of music Full Keyboard was developed for.

Hope this helps,
Fred.

[Wally Z]

Wow!  I am so glad I read this post.  Even though I'm self taught, I do play a piano type of method most of the time.  I have had problems playing with styles because the left hand parts just didn't sound right.  Usually my left hand is not just holding a chord.  My left hand fingers are almost always moving from note to note contained in the chord.  I know there's a name for this but since I'm not a trained musician I don't know what it is. lol  I've been playing with the keyboard set on multi-finger. This is fine until you try playing with a style.  After reading the above post I went to the keyboard and changed it to AI Full Keyboard.  Wow!  What a difference.  I'm actually excited about being able to play with styles now.  Now I'm wondering if this type of playing is what the original poster was talking about. I guess it's like playing a rhythm with left hand and melody with right hand. Similar to a band lead guitar playing the melody and the rhythm guitar playing the chords.  Very cool!  Thank you all so much.     Think I need to go back and read the owners manual and reference manual again.  Although you guys usually make this stuff easier to understand.

[mikf]

Wally - I think the word you are looking for is arpeggio - the notes of a chord played one at a time.
The original poster was not talking about this. He ( or maybe it's she??) was playing only individiual melody notes. The reference to using both hands was a bit of a red herring because the left hand is not playing anything to support the melody, just some of the melody notes in the normal rh range.   
Mike

[RONBO]

interesting thread, indeed.

This may seem a bit of a radical solution, but here goes.

you could consider using TWO keyboards. i know that sounds expensive but it may be the solution

regards

Ron

[Amaravadi]

Dear Ronbo,
Wow, this will not only punch a big hole in my pocket as I will have to buy another S900, it will also be a big pain to set up every time as I suppose I will have to use the midi-out of the 1st KB to drive the style of the 2nd KB.  Also, I can as well forget about taking them to a gig.   

Dear Mike,
Its a 'he'.   

Dear Wally,
Glad this post is of interest to you.

Dear Fred,
Thanks for your further explanation.  I am also grateful to you for giving tips (in another post) on inserting a silence in the middle of a performance.  I always wondered how it could be done, and now I know, thanks to your reply.

Regards
Amaravadi