PSR Tutorial Forum
Genos (12 Boards) => Genos - General => Topic started by: Pianoman on May 17, 2019, 08:43:48 PM
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My Genos froze last night, 5 minutes before starting a gig.
The buttons didn't respond, neither did the menus or anything else for that matter.
I tried switching it off but that didn't work either, so I had to unplug the power cable
in order to switch it off.
I then did a reset, just to be sure, and then it got working again.
I have owned a Tyros3 for 10 years, and not once did it ever freeze.
It was robust and reliable until the motherboard started giving me problems a
couple of months ago.
I have owned the Genos for almost 3 months now and it's already showing weaknesses.
I am not a big fan of the Genos but had to buy it out of necessity 2 days before starting
my gig season, when my T3 gave me trouble and there was nothing else available at short
notice.
I am trying so hard to like this instrument, but the sound is terrible and I struggle every day
to get a decent sound out of it, Especially from the preset styles.
It's incredible that the 3rd party styles posted on this very forum sound better than many
of the Genos preset styles.
I suspect that whoever designed or programmed these styles, especially the drums,
has never gigged in the real world of noisy stages, bars, restaurants, hotels etc.and have
probably spent most of their time in the safety of a sanitized studio.
Car manufacturers clock 10s of thousands of miles testing their cars, from the coldest
arctic climates to the hottest deserts of the world, not to mention racetracks like the
Nurburgring,, before presenting them to the public as a finished product.
I am now gigging 6 times a week, so I won't really be able to try any more adjustments
until early November, when the gigs slow down a bit.
The compressor settings aren't much to write home about, as all they seem to do is
mainly just raise the general volume or strangle the right hand voices when
increased.
After trying various EQ settings, without any improvement in sound, I only succeeded
in damaging the woofer on one of my main JBL speakers.
This is a flawed instrument in so many ways, and I refuse to insistently repeat the mantra
of "Genos good, Genos good" as some may want to do here.
Doing so would be like making excuses for a partner who constantly lets you down.
It is time for us to come clean and admit that what we have here is an instrument
with questionable durability and reliability, not to mention other flaws.
I put an instrument to the test 6 nights a week every week, for the most diverse public
that one can find anywhere, maintaining the gig intensity for 180 nights every year,
before things slow down to 2 or 3 gigs a week.
So I like to think that this has enabled me to have a bit of knowledge about sound quality
and dynamics.
And just to dispel the notion that this is Yamaha bashing, I have exclusively used Yamaha
instruments since 1971, apart from my current JBLs and Kawai MP11, and a Fender Rhodes
I owned from 1980 to 1984.
I've owned Yamaha Organs, Synthesizers, Leslies, Amplifiers, PA sound systems,
Saxophones, Flutes, Pianos, a Trumpet, and 2 Yamaha motorbikes.
Best Regards.
Abby.
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Abby, you have my deepest sympathy!! I am just thinking: could a PSR 975 fill your needs instead of the Genos? Even better, search for a Tyros 5. Hang in there!
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Hello Abby,
I don't own a Genos (yet) - but you make me really wonder now if I should wait for the next generation to come out. Most of my friends using it seem more or less happy with it, except a few who gig and miss the fast button access vs. navigating menus.
As for the styles: If I recall correctly, Yamaha lets you download the previous keyboard generation styles (forgot where they are, but I'm sure you will find them.) So why not download those? You might want to go through every one of them to make sure that everything is mapped correctly (so you don't get any "Revo Drum" surprises in places where you don't expect them.)
And as for reliability: I just hope that the next update which should come out soon will address that. You're getting me worried here :-(
Have a super weekend. Cheers, Roland
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Hi Abby
So now will you start making yourself Custom Styles and save them to your USB stick?
If you use Registration, then connect them to your Custom Styles.
That way when you purchase your next Yamaha keyboard ... you don't have to go through this sort of thing again.
I went from a PSR2000 to a PSR-S950 with no issues doing the upgrade. ;)
Every style I use when gigging is coming from my USB stick. And I have 3 copies of the it and back them up every 2 to 3 months. As I continue to add 3 to 5 new custom song styes each month.
Regards
Drake
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Abby,
Why use Genos presets at all if you don't like them? Why not just use what you had on the T3 that you liked so much.
When I upgraded from my T4 to the Genos, I copied everything from the T4 to a USB stick. I had them working on the Genos within 30 minutes of turning it on.
If you still have your T3 styles, why not go back to them?
Cheers,
Fred
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I suspect that whoever designed or programmed these styles, especially the drums, has never gigged in the real world of noisy stages, bars, restaurants, hotels etc.and have probably spent most of their time in the safety of a sanitized studio.
I happen to know many of the people who programmed the styles, some have been good friends and colleagues for over 40 years. Your suspicions are way off the mark! These guys have all served their apprenticeships the hard way, gigging in all the places you mentioned for years and doing a lot more besides. They're basically the same team that has worked on all the Tyros and high end PSR models.
As far as the freeze is concerned, have you considered the purity of the AC mains supply where you were. All of the freezes I've encountered over the past 49 years have been on digital instruments or 'analogue instruments under digital control'. In many cases it's been down to something putting ripples, spikes etc onto the mains. Other people's faulty instruments on occasion and even a really electrically noisy set of Christmas lights. You might like to check out what devices can prevent this happening!
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just buy a "old" remanufactured Tyros 3 , and jou lost a lot of frustrations .
If the Genos isnt youre friend right now , it wil never be .
S, 8)
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Hi Abbey
If i was playing out professionally I would make sure to have a back up keyboard.
I personally think that in this digital age it is a must as electrical or computer software is vulnerable to glitches.
I used to run a disco years ago and thank god i carried a spare amplifier.
Amplifiers hate Larger and lime.
I also think that the Genos is not a keyboard for out of the box playing as it is a workstation. You have to manipulate the sounds and rythms, eq and effects etc to get a good end result.
The older keyboards were not so complicated and easier play.
We all know that when new designs come out things are more complicated and more interesting adding to the learn curve.
The Genos sounds much better than it's predecessers . It has to be manipulated
All The Best
John :)
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As has been mentioned I would firstly check the electrical supply. Keyboards will react if this is not constant and could be your problem. Remember there are other things
to check before you blame it on the keyboard.
Most of us like very much some of the new styles on Genos but not always all. I always revert back to the styles I have used and tweaked myself in the past for certain songs and they sound great on Genos
and much richer than they did in my previous Yamaha keyboards as dose the OTS I set for them.
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As far as the freeze is concerned, have you considered the purity of the AC mains supply where you were. All of the freezes I've encountered over the past 49 years have been on digital instruments or 'analogue instruments under digital control'. In many cases it's been down to something putting ripples, spikes etc onto the mains. Other people's faulty instruments on occasion and even a really electrically noisy set of Christmas lights. You might like to check out what devices can prevent this happening!
Absolutely agree. You should be playing through a pure sinewave UPS or a surge suppressor with good EMI filtering (ISOBAR for example) . Not at all expensive for the small amount of current these keyboards draw.
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Cóuld be unstable voltages at the gig?
Do you use surge protection, or even better a small ups with power stabillization?
Either that or a corrupted user file/song/style/voice...
Those are in general the most common reasons of freezing/crashing..
My Genos is still rockstable, even when switched on for hours..
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I am beginning to suspect that it could be something to do with the free expansion pack
I installed just before loading the Genos into the car.
Best Regards.
Abby.
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Hi
What happens if there is an EMP strike????
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No , that is impossible . I have 18 Sound Packs in my Genos
including the free one and my Genos never gives me a problem .
The free Pack is good , if you like it or not is a matter of taste .
I think you have to learn a lot about how to use and how to handle
a complex instrument as a Genos .
That takes time and you are in this situation just a "beginner" .
So start learning today and try to understand your instrument .
Normal members do not write long messages with only complaints .
When a normal player does not understand something he/she askes
"how to questions "
Employees in musicshops think that you are payed for your bashing
messages , that could be right .
I am not sure that you own a Genos .
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No , that is impossible . I have 18 Sound Packs in my Genos
including the free one and my Genos never gives me a problem .
The free Pack is good , if you like it or not is a matter of taste .
I think you have to learn a lot about how to use and how to handle
a complex instrument as a Genos .
That takes time and you are in this situation just a "beginner" .
So start learning today and try to understand your instrument .
Normal members do not write long messages with only complaints .
When a normal player does not understand something he/she askes
"how to questions "
Employees in musicshops think that you are payed for your bashing
messages , that could be right .
I am not sure that you own a Genos .
Aren’t there a few to many assumptions that make you jump to this conclusion?
I am sure there is a logical explanation for a single freeze up..
And you can never rule out corrupted data..
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No , that is impossible . I have 18 Sound Packs in my Genos
including the free one and my Genos never gives me a problem .
The free Pack is good , if you like it or not is a matter of taste .
I think you have to learn a lot about how to use and how to handle
a complex instrument as a Genos .
That takes time and you are in this situation just a "beginner" .
So start learning today and try to understand your instrument .
Normal members do not write long messages with only complaints .
When a normal player does not understand something he/she askes
"how to questions "
Employees in musicshops think that you are payed for your bashing
messages , that could be right .
I am not sure that you own a Genos .
What on earth has come over you Mark?
I am not a "Beginner" and have been using complex instruments since before
you ever owned or played an instrument.
I am flattered that you talk about me with Music shops employees,
but what do mean by "Normal Members" anyway?
I do own a Genos and have paid good money for it and it is my right to criticise it
when I think that something is wrong with it.
Do you even know what it's like to stand in front of 200/300 people and silence
falls upon the room as everyone waits for you to start playing, then your
instrument freezes on you?
I play my instrument for a living and have a contractual obligation to deliver on an
agreed performance whether my instrument has frozen, or I'm ill, have lost my voice,
or have broken hands.
As I mentioned in my first original post above, I have exclusively owned Yamaha instruments
and even Yamaha motorbikes from the age of 17, I am now 64.
That is 47 years with Yamaha. Can you say the same for yourself?
Please let me remind you that you are neither an administrator, nor a moderator,
and nor do you own this forum.
I please urge to address other members with respect.
Respecting others is a sign of good upbringing and education.
This is the second time that you address me with disrespect.
The first time was about 10 months ago but I chose to ignore your comments
and not respond.
I know of no other member of this forum who deliberately shows disrespect
to another member.
I am attaching pictures of my Genos here for your perusal.
I will attach more pictures tomorrow after I set up my gear.
.
Best Regards.
Abby.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Best friends.
For me the Genos is still not what it should be, with me it also happens that it freezes, happened several times, after power off again good.
Regarding Rhythms, sometimes it is to weep how a rhythm is composed, not much attention has been given to the whole device, the intention is good but the expected is not realized.
I played with Roland, with all the Tyros, the best for me was Tyros 4.
I grasp De Heer Pianoman, he is disappointed, of which I think there are several, but who dare not express themselves.
Yamahah genos is not what it should be, maybe it will get better after the next update.
Sorry I don't want to despise anyone here, but these are my findings.
I feel somewhat cheated by Yamaha with their genos , for which I have paid a lot of money
I hope to come out with an update.
Sincerely to everyone.
louwe46
this has been translated (google) from dutch to english, sorry for the mistakes.
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Abby
Mark’s comments are unwarranted and well out of line, and I expect that will soon be quietly dealt with. No need to post more pictures, or justify your position, all of us who have played many gigs know how stressful equipment failure can be in front of an audience, no matter the cause.
Mike
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Why does everyone feel so personally attacked when some criticism is given to the Genos ?
I also had several problems with the Genos and I have resigned myself to it, these will be resolved with the next update and otherwise I will wait for the Genos 2.
Abby has lost faith in his Genos and was not satisfied with the sound and use of it from the start, and certainly expected more.
But what I am convinced of myself (I have had the entire Tyros series of 1/5) is that exactly the same sound can be made with the Genos as it came from the Tyros 3, a matter of stopping a lot of time in adjusting the EQ and not only in the main screen but in the depth of the instrument.
Sound technically the T3 is quite a step back, but if that is your "holy grail" for good sound, that is of course your personal choice.
I see that you use the "Golden EQ" setting, which can give a nice sound for many, but is a bit too "present" and too direct for old music. I would advise you to spend some time together with another musician in setting your EQ to your own taste, I am convinced that you will then forget about the Tyros 3 ;)
Soryt :)
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Abby
Mark’s comments are unwarranted and well out of line, and I expect that will soon be quietly dealt with. No need to post more pictures, or justify your position, all of us who have played many gigs know how stressful equipment failure can be in front of an audience, no matter the cause.
Mike
Thank you for your comments Mike.
I believe that Mark Z is also the gentleman who chose to call Mr.Kaarlo von Freymann
"A clown in a white suit ."
And now we don't hear from Mr.Freymann very often..
Flinging personal insults at people who are having difficulties with their instrument
is deplorable in my view and should be discouraged.
As I wrote above, I know of no other member who does this kind of thing.
One can politely agree to disagree without being rude.
Best Regards.
Abby.
PS: I'm going to set up my gear now and wanted to proudly display my setup anyway, before
this unfortunate event.
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If you have difficulties with your instrument, you can take a pill for that!!! Your Genos will spring into life ;D
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Hi Everyone,
I must say, regarding the styles, I agree 100% with Pianoman.
I loaded the tyros 5 styles (and older) and I find myself consistently chose the older styles over the new ones.
Even when the same style was created for Genos.
I think it's the drums selection. The Revo drums are not punchy enough ... (In my opinion).
By the way, if I played Jazz,60's and 70's I would chose the Genos styles. I think that it's a matter of the material you are playing.
For rock, pop, ballad - my taste is taking me to previous styles.
Having said that, Yamaha can always say it's there for you ... older and newer ... you need to choose.
I agree with Pianoman that by default, Genos is not set for gigging musician.
It's set for the living-room player.
We need to customize it to get it to rock.
One more note about sound.
I'm using either 2 Bose L1 compact or 2 EV evolve 50's.
Genos is rocking it with flying colors.
Again - this is only my taste and opinion.
Sound is good on the ear of the beholder ...
Cheers!
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I believe Abby posted a few videos of him playing at various gigs. He is a fine player and entertainer. His post is about two things: the Genos freezing and the Genos sound quality. Let me offer my two cents (or whatever your lowest currency is ;)).
Genos freezing
The two explanations make sense to me. The quality of the incoming AC power must be pure. I believe (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) the incoming 110 volts or 220 volts is converted to 12 volts DC before the Genos circuits are powered up. I was once told by an electronics service tech that the incoming voltage is not set strictly at 110 volts or 220 volts. Most electronic devices entertain a range of incoming AC voltage. There is also the quality of the incoming voltage. For example, phase, interference, and other variables. So, I would conclude that using a GPS power supply with proper filtering is a wise move for all of us. I can't tell you how many places I've played where the stage circuit was linked to the kitchen, dimmer switches, or fluorescent tube fixtures! These halls were built before the dinosaurs roamed the earth, that is, long before the halls were intended to be used for live electronic music.
I would not discount file corruption. Perhaps a custom style that worked on Abby's T5 doesn't like to play nice with the Genos? I've had similar problems. The solution was to open the custom style, resave it, and then resave the registration to which it belonged. I've had no more problems after that.
Genos sound quality
This is a very personal subject. Abby is a professional player who could care less what his Genos sounds like at home. It must sound perfect wherever he plays. Trouble is, not one hall is the same as the next. There are so many variables with room responses and numbers of patrons. He likely plays in the same venue fairly often, so he knows his halls.
There is also something called "schemata." Schemata is how we perceive information, based on our prior knowledge. Abby played the Tyros series for years before buying his Genos. His brain has a preconceived idea of how his instrument must sound. I believe that when he first sat down to play his Genos, his brain told him, "I only bought this keyboard because I need something for tomorrow's show. It's probably as good as my T5." Problem: the Genos is a totally different animal. Yamaha completely overhauled the sound processor and (in my opinion) brought us much closer to CD quality than any other arranger. Abby must get used to that or adjust his Genos so it sounds more like what his schemata dictates. Fortunately, he has a choice. If there is one thing Yamaha is stellar at, is reverse compatibility. You can make your Genos sound like a PSR2000 if you want to - although why you would want to is beyond me ;)!
Parting thoughts
Abby, it sounds like the EQ Gold settings go against your schemata, which is fine. Try the "out of the box" settings. They are much closer to the T5 sound. You can prune them back even further to you like. I believe you have excellent ears, which means you can get close to finding the sound you want. I don't think the Genos is the problem. It's your lack of time that makes it difficult to find that sound. Perhaps you can get into one of your favorite venues before opening time, and play with some of the Master EQ and Compressor settings to see if you can get the sound close to where you want it?
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Here's my setup for tonight's gig.
I normally set up in the afternoon then go home and sleep, in order to be fresh for
the gig.
Best Regards.
Abby.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Nice place, Abby! That hall is long and narrow and has a lot of hard surfaces. Whether you're playing a PSR2000 or Genos, a proper sound is going to be a challenge. A full house would help, but then you must deal with the high ambient background sound level from the people - somewhere around 75 dB. This is not an ideal place to judge the Genos.
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Hello Lee.
I know, the room is long and you get a hollow sound full of echoes.
I was just explaining the same thing to a hotel guest.
The place fills up completely at night and the background racket is overwhelming.
I actually hear the people from the street already, as I arrive and park my car.
This is only one of the hotels that I play in.
Thank God it's only on Sundays.
I play in a different hotel every day, this is the nearest to my home and one
of 3 where I can pop in quickly to set up and then run home for a nap.
The best acoustics are in a 5 star called the Hotel Fenicia here in Ibiza, where I played
last night. Check it out on Google.
I play there Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays.
I'll post a couple of pictures from there the next time.
Best Regards.
Abby.
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Abby find the reverb hall effect of the styles and voices and put it to...... minus 10!!
I can see a large hall already ;D
Hard work indeed to make a good sound in places like this one.
I can see why you are struggling for a proper sound all you gigging musicians.
Good luck with your show :)
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Until my health forced me into retirement 2 years ago, I made my living as a full-time entertainer, performing more than 400 times a year. My biggest fear, and I only encountered this 2 times in more than 30 years, was to have a major equipment failure. Fortunately, I never had a complete keyboard failure, though I did have a corrupt file cause the keyboard to lock up. Like Abby, I had to unplug the keyboard in order to shut it off, then did a minor system restoration when I fired it back up. Also, had an amp die on the job, but I carried a spare and was back in business in just a couple minutes.
I agree with Abby about many of the problems he has, and because of his success with the T3, I think that I would have purchased a remanufactured T3 instead of the Genos, then purchased another for a backup board. When I was still working, I had a complete backup system available and everything was identical.
Good luck, Abby and I sincerely hope you are able to find solutions to the problems you have been experiencing.
Gary 8)
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Good stuff, Abby. I love the pics :)!
I find the more "live" the room, the less bass you can use. I see you have a nice sized sub. In those echo chambers, I'd keep the sub really low, if not off. If possible, always shoot across a live room rather than down the length. I also try to set up away from corners and in a position where I only feed the dance floor. People sitting in the wings don't need or want the full fidelity of your playing. To them, you're just background. Happy playing :)!
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In the picture it looks like the speakers are in a separate room behind you, with the sound coming out through the doorway. If this is the case I would bring the speakers outside the room on each side of your keyboard, with a monitor behind you.
Regards,
Jerryghr
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Until my health forced me into retirement 2 years ago, I made my living as a full-time entertainer, performing more than 400 times a year. My biggest fear, and I only encountered this 2 times in more than 30 years, was to have a major equipment failure. Fortunately, I never had a complete keyboard failure, though I did have a corrupt file cause the keyboard to lock up. Like Abby, I had to unplug the keyboard in order to shut it off, then did a minor system restoration when I fired it back up. Also, had an amp die on the job, but I carried a spare and was back in business in just a couple minutes.
I agree with Abby about many of the problems he has, and because of his success with the T3, I think that I would have purchased a remanufactured T3 instead of the Genos, then purchased another for a backup board. When I was still working, I had a complete backup system available and everything was identical.
Good luck, Abby and I sincerely hope you are able to find solutions to the problems you have been experiencing.
Gary 8)
Hello Gary.
It's good to hear from you old friend.
I was thinking about you just yesterday as I listened to the song Laura receive the
full G.Diamond treatment.
Great, great stuff and a worthy tribute to your daughter.
I must apologise for laying low these last couple of months.
I've been struggling to get my keyboard ready for my gig season.
As you know, once the merry go round starts there's no way of getting off until it
stops by itself.
So I won't be able to do much tweaking now until mid November.
I think that I've accomplished a lot these last 2 months but there's still much
more to do.
Let's see what the new updates will bring.
My Best Regards.
Abby.
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Hello Lee and Jerryghr.
I unfortunately can't move to another location in the room, as the management wants
that whoever walks by from the terrace or elevators should be able to see me.
As well as those entering the hotel lobby.
Jerryghr, it is just a visual effect that the speakers seem to be in another room.
Actually they're leaning against the pillars.
I only have one more gig in this hall, where I only play in May and October.
Then we shall be moving to a big stage outdoors, facing the sea.
There I shall be able to blast away and be heard all the way to Sicily.
Best Regards to all.
Abby.
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Good luck my friend. I'm also going through setup on a different arranger. Still have the PA4X which I love, and also Roland EA7, which is really quite amazing at the cost. It is my backup unit and available for quick jobs outside my regular venue.
I'm also experimenting with a module/controller setup and making progress, but slowly.
I seldom play my Yamaha. It has pretty much been relegated to fourth place. Good news is that they are ALL great arrangers these days, you just have to work with them a while.
I'm certain you'll get everything under control soon.
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Hi,
Reading Pianoman's comments, it might be useful to hear from other Genos giggers how they feel about this new instrument.
Most Genos owners are saying the Genos is the best arranger keyboard ever made but apparently Abby has met a different experience.
I am told the Genos is a complete different " beast " than the Tyros.
Maybe Abby needs a lot of time to find out all the ins and outs of the Genos ?
Babette
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Reading Pianoman's comments, it might be useful to hear from other Genos giggers how they feel about this new instrument.
Most Genos owners are saying the Genos is the best arranger keyboard ever made but apparently Abby has met a different experience.
I am told the Genos is a complete different " beast " than the Tyros.
Maybe Abby needs a lot of time to find out all the ins and outs of the Genos ?
Babette,
We Genos affectionados have posted lots, but as Abby stated in his first post on this thread, he doesn’t want to hear any more.
It appears you either love Genos, or hate it, and there’s not much in between.
Cheers,
Fred
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Good luck my friend. I'm also going through setup on a different arranger. Still have the PA4X which I love, and also Roland EA7, which is really quite amazing at the cost. It is my backup unit and available for quick jobs outside my regular venue.
I'm also experimenting with a module/controller setup and making progress, but slowly.
I seldom play my Yamaha. It has pretty much been relegated to fourth place. Good news is that they are ALL great arrangers these days, you just have to work with them a while.
I'm certain you'll get everything under control soon.
Hello Don old friend.
Thank you for your well wishes and encouragement.
I see that you're still rocking.
I haven't had much time to scour the other forums lately.
It's the job's gathering intensity.
Best Regards.
Abby.
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Hey!
It's not just GENOS that freezes.
Found this on Korg's forum.
Such happens with computers as well.
// Pierre
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:45 pm Post subject: Pa4X frozen in Live Gig Reply with quote
For the first time my Pa4X had frozen after performing about 8 months with it.
It was in the middle of a gig and heard a sound like Bipppp coming from Pa4X.
I did Panic operation (Shift + Start/Stop) but it did not cut of the sound.
I had to reboot the keyboard.
Very annoying and frustrating when it happens during the Live performance.
Anybody has any idea how to prevent or remedy this issue?
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It might happen electronic instruments and/or computers
are freezing.
Maybe most of us experienced this frustrating action once or twice.
The reason why it happens is not easy to find out.
IMHO technicians can answer that question.
Babette
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Have you ever experienced a mobile phone freeze?. Or a laptop freeze?. Or a desktop computer freeze?. Even a router freeze?
All of them have lots in common. Most rely on some kind of UNIX operating system. Of course, Android is. Even Windows is built over a UNIX core (Edit: that last sentence is wrong, sorry!)
So well, from time to time, the very complex software structure of those things crashes. There is no 100% uncrasheable operating system, at least on consumer level.
Of course, good operating systems leave a trace so programmers can figure out what happened an try to fix that exact crash. But there are so many different possibilities that it is impossible to cover all.
I have been a programmer for decades and have also worked on the hardware side which could also generate some problems but I think, lots less probable than a software freeze on Abby case.
Just my 2 cents worth ;)
Jose
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Even Windows is built over a Unix core.
The Windows kernel (not core) is entirely developed by MS. The only "Unix"-like thing in Windows, are the Windows Services for Unix.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architecture_of_Windows_NT (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architecture_of_Windows_NT)
I think Windows is even one of the few OS'es which has no *nix heritage whatsoever.
(I've been working 100% in Windows development for a few decades, so I should also know a thing or two about Windows ;) )
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OK, I stand corrected about the UNIX kernel on NT-based systems. They share some concepts but not the kernel itself.
What I wanted to stress is that most current devices use some complex operating system which is inherently able to crash, more or less elegantly ;)
Jose
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Yes, that is, unfortunately, very true.
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Yes, that is, unfortunately, very true.
My first computer, back on 1982, a Commodore VIC-20, never froze by itself, on normal use... But I was able to crash it by some weird manually-coded assembly code (well, I was 14 then and had little clue on programming ;)! )
Jose
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Hello Everyone.
Thank you all for your helpful advice and suggestions.
I would like all of you to know that I have read every single comment and give
them all serious thought and consideration.
Like I have reiterated so many times over the past year, I am a big Yamaha fan,
and for the last 47 years, I have exclusively used Yamaha products for all my
musical needs, apart from a Fender Rhodes, my current JBLs, and the Kawai MP11.
That is a lifetime, many people don't live to reach 47 years.
This point seems to be somehow lost on people or just overlooked by those who
may wish to conclude that I am on a Yamaha bashing expedition.
Whatever concern that I post about the Genos is only limited to the issues that
bother me. Not the Gemos itself as a whole, and definitely not Yamaha.
I've always had the utmost confidence in Yamaha products for 47 years and
I find no reason for that confidence to be diminished.
Even the most tight knit families have disagreements on particular issues
every now and then, and that's ok.
When I feel that the issues that bother me are resolved, I will also come out and
say so very loud and clear.
Best Regards.
Abby.
-
Maybe whenever it is released GENOS 2 will fix some of these concerns....
freezing up is one thing but not liking the way it sounds is another.....
may I ask what rig setup before Genos you did enjoy and like the way it sounds?
good luck
-
Hello Everyone.
Thank you all for your helpful advice and suggestions.
I would like all of you to know that I have read every single comment and give
them all serious thought and consideration.
Like I have reiterated so many times over the past year, I am a big Yamaha fan,
and for the last 47 years, I have exclusively used Yamaha products for all my
musical needs, apart from a Fender Rhodes, my current JBLs, and the Kawai MP11.
That is a lifetime, many people don't live to reach 47 years.
This point seems to be somehow lost on people or just overlooked by those who
may wish to conclude that I am on a Yamaha bashing expedition.
Whatever concern that I post about the Genos is only limited to the issues that
bother me. Not the Gemos itself as a whole, and definitely not Yamaha.
I've always had the utmost confidence in Yamaha products for 47 years and
I find no reason for that confidence to be diminished.
Even the most tight knit families have disagreements on particular issues
every now and then, and that's ok.
When I feel that the issues that bother me are resolved, I will also come out and
say so very loud and clear.
Best Regards.
Abby.
Abby,
As I suggested in an earlier post, playing through a pure sinewave UPS and a surge protector with both EMI and RFI filtering would help prevent problems caused by noisy AC circuits. I recommend and use the ISOBAR line of surge protectors by Tripp Lite. They're not expensive. A suitable UPS and ISOBAR power strip will cost less than $150 US.
-
Hi Genos Player,
The sound of the genos is good. Of course, you can be divided Opinioss on the Revo drums.
For my way of playing, the Genos touch screen is not good. I play mainly with Midifiles. When I choose the next midifile on stage while playing a Midifile, it happens again and again that I come to the touchscreen field of another Midifile ... and the running Midifile stops ... and the new one starts. How embarassing. I strive incredibly that it does not happen ... but in the stress of the stage, it happens again and again. Yamaha forgot to integrate a pre selection function.
Saturday I played the first hours outside ... I could not see anything on the touch screen. Despite the good sound that makes the Genos unusable for me. I have 2 options: 1: I play all Midis in the future with the PC Live Player on my Shuttle Touchscreen PC ... 2. I go back to the Tyros 5 or PSR 975.
Do not have other users this problem?
regards
Siggi
-
Hi Genos Player,
The sound of the genos is good. Of course, you can be divided Opinioss on the Revo drums.
For my way of playing, the Genos touch screen is not good. I play mainly with Midifiles. When I choose the next midifile on stage while playing a Midifile, it happens again and again that I come to the touchscreen field of another Midifile ... and the running Midifile stops ... and the new one starts. How embarassing. I strive incredibly that it does not happen ... but in the stress of the stage, it happens again and again. Yamaha forgot to integrate a pre selection function.
Saturday I played the first hours outside ... I could not see anything on the touch screen. Despite the good sound that makes the Genos unusable for me. I have 2 options: 1: I play all Midis in the future with the PC Live Player on my Shuttle Touchscreen PC ... 2. I go back to the Tyros 5 or PSR 975.
Do not have other users this problem?
regards
Siggi
Siggi,
You should use the Song Player on the Genos. It's much more flexible than what was on the Tyros (or PSR), as you can include both midis and audio files. It has the pre-select function you want. While a midi is playing, you can select the next one (on the touch screen). When you're ready to play it, you touch it again. Even better, you can start it with the Enter button, which is much less error-prone than the touch screen.
For outdoors in sunshine, nothing works well. Certainly the Genos is better than the T1 or T2 was. If you're going to do an outdoor gig, you should insist on a canopy being available.
Cheers,
Fred
PS. It would have been better to start a new topic for these questions.
-
Maybe whenever it is released GENOS 2 will fix some of these concerns....
freezing up is one thing but not liking the way it sounds is another.....
may I ask what rig setup before Genos you did enjoy and like the way it sounds?
good luck
I used a Tyros3 together with the same sound system that I'm using now.
I am also using mostly T3 and T5 styles for the moment, after having tried the
Genos styles.
Best Regards.
Abby.
-
Stuart, Abby uses some heavy-duty equipment while performing, and most of the USP systems I've seen that would handle that much current cost well over $200. The system you quoted would be for the keyboard only and not the amps, mixer, lights, etc...
Gary 8)
-
Hi
Thank you for the Answer,
oh sorry, yes i should open a seperate Threat for that.
I have been using the genos for 6 months now. I have not discovered a song preset function.
I think I'm getting old.
Does anyone use this song preset function?
Siggi
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Stuart, Abby uses some heavy-duty equipment while performing, and most of the USP systems I've seen that would handle that much current cost well over $200.
True, but when one has equipment worth many, many thousands of $, that would seem like a reasonable investment.
Regards,
Chris
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Hello Gary.
I'm happy to see you posting.
I answered your previous comment and about the song Laura.
I don't know if you've read it.
I'm also happy to announce that I'm playing in the same hotel tonight where the Genos
froze last Thursday and there has been no Genos freeze.
In fact I've been playing in different hotels since the Genos froze on Thursday and
everything has been hunky dory.
Best Regards.
Abby.
-
The Genos is really a computer and all computers occasionally freeze. Sometimes midi glitches happen and you get that awful noise until reboot.
It is what they do and sometimes too many actions in quick succession can freeze a computer system.
All the Best
john
-
I also have a freeze now and then on my PSRS.
-
I've had a PSR 510, an S910 and now a S970 for the last 25 years in the same location/house. I don't turn the keyboard on when there is an electrical storm because we sometime have power outages.
Under normal conditions I experienced no freezes ever... so it must be the electrical mains with variable voltage or spikes. I think a ups device would work for areas with inconsistent voltages.
Joe H
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Hi Abby, glad you enjoyed my rendition of Laura and hope things continue to improve for you as the season progresses. Also very happy to see that you have an extremely busy schedule. My only wish is that I was in good enough health to travel to Ibiza to meet with you in person, but alas the health issues have worsened considerably during the past six months.
Keep in touch and keep us posted about your progress, old friend,
Gary 8)
-
My Genos froze too, but I wasn’t at a gig but I was transporting it from the cold north to a warmer climate. The overnight temps were in the single digits. Actually my wife and I were frozen too with those temperatures. :) :) Sorry no harm intended I thought I’d just add some humor to the discussion.
My more serious thought is I can understand Abbey’s concerns it’s too bad he couldn’t have got his hands on another Tyros 3. It has to be very frustrating for him playing keys that he doesn’t care for.
I don’t think I’ve ever read so much controversy anywhere about any arranger keyboard as there has been about Genos since its release. Me? I own one use it for gigs and have never had a problem, but I don’t play gigs 6 or 7 days per week.
I take no offense when the Genos is criticized, I know it works for me and I’m happy with it, if I’m not I just head over to my Korg Pa4x.
-
Hi,
The Tyros has always been Abby's favourite instrument.
He never liked the Genos that much, remember his comments.
If a professional like Abby has approx. 6 gigs every week, a spare arranger keyboard is always a must, IMHO.
Babette
-
Hi Abbey
I am in agreement 100%
A professional should always carry a spare with anything that involves computerized components.
With all the possibilities and Murphy's law It makes common sense.
All the best
John :)
-
This idea of carrying a spare is something that sounds good on paper, but in practice if you have done a lot of gigs, you would know that every additional piece of equipment is not just a cost, but something to be loaded, unloaded, carried, stored, cared for, checked periodically and kept up to date. OMB people have no roadie to do this for them, so if Abby is anything like me, he keeps it to the minimum possible. Especially with a back up keyboard which is actually pretty unlikely ever to be needed, because if it locks up, it would usually be quicker to re boot, and re run the failed keyboard than setting up a new piece of equipment. And you would ALWAYS try that first anyway. If it is a power issue the other keyboard will not work anyway, so it is only in the very unlikely circumstance - maybe one gig in a thousand - that a keyboard totally and suddenly stops working for no external reason and cannot be re booted that the second keyboard would be any use. And in any case, Abby has a back up - a digital piano, not ideal but in an emergency, I bet an experienced pro like Abby could mug through a show with it. And where do you stop, do you duplicate everything just in case??? Apart from high level pros with an entourage I doubt anyone does that. Basically, its just a very small risk, like a new car breaking down, that hopefully never happens, and if it does ... well you just have to live with it.
Mike
-
You hit it right on the nail Mike.
First, there are no power issues in any of the hotels that I work in here.
I'm sure that they have a all kinds of precautions in place anyway.
I already have a second powered mixer, tyre repair kit and battery powered pump,
oil, radiator fluid, powered screw drivers and all kinds of instrument repair tools in the car.
I also had a backup Yamaha PF 100 Clavinova at home, that I eventually donated
to the primary school where my son used to go to.
The headmaster is a friend.
There just isn't enough space anymore im the car.
So I would have to rush home to pick up whatever backup instrument
that may be needed.
Like I wrote in my original post, the T3 ran like clockwork for 10 years.
I even commented to a pub owner that the board was indestructible.
Anyway, I'm getting the hang of my Genos now, thanks to Lee for helping me out
with EQ issues, as well as all the good advice that I've been receiving from all the
members responding to my issues.
Best Regards.
Abby.
-
For a veteran pro like Abby, instead of investing another $6000 (or whatever your price is), he could create an audio backup list of tunes. It would take time, but he could record an entire gig's worth of music, play it back, and just sing to the tracks while faking the hand movements. The only downside is, he wouldn't be able to take requests.
I also like the suggestion of just using the Kawai piano. He could sneak by with it - just not as lively. No good for a dance.
-
Hi Mike,
I agree it might be a problem to load / unload 2 arranger keyboards but it must be much harder for a pro gigger if he/she cannot perform and must go home ( without payment ? ).
However, the audience and the ( hotel ) owner will be very disappointed. They are paying to be entertained.
It might be a risky challenge, I guess.
A spare like a PSRS 970/975 too heavy ... ?
Why not replace the piano by an extra arranger keyboard ?
Is there another alternative if one is gigging 6x in one week ?
Maybe other ( ex )giggers can answer these questions and are willing to share their experiences.
Babette
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Hello Babette.
Good suggestions, but I can't perform without a piano.
I am a pianist first and foremost, the arranger is just an added sweetener/bonus.
I drive a Chrysler PT Cruiser exclusively for transporting my gear.
I also have a VW Golf for personal use.
I couldn't even add a toothpick into the Chrysler. It's full to the brim.
Apart from the arranger and mixer that I take inside the house every night,
the rest of my gear stays permanently in the car for at least 6 months a year.
Thanks for the suggestions though.
Best Regards.
Abby.
-
Many of us have been there done that like Abby - vehicle packed every square inch with gear. The thing is that you would be carrying the spare every time and probably never use it. And sure as fate, if you carry a spare keyboard it would actually be something else that lets you down.
Extra equipment is more of an issue than people who don't do this regularly understand. I always thought the hardest part of playing gigs was loading the equipment back into a car at 2 am when everyone else is gone, probably through three fire doors and down 2 sets of stairs, and when you are dead tired. Believe me, at that point you are not thinking 'wish I had brought some spare equipment just in case'.
I had a few equipment issues when I was playing regular gigs, but always found a way to get through it. The hardest thing is to think straight about what might be going wrong when you are under the pressure of an expectant audience.
wasn't a possibility in the days when I was playing gigs, but the ultimate fall back position nowadays is to have a bunch of music on your iPhone, and become a DJ for the evening if all else fails!
Mike
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Hello Lee.
I believe that you are a person who has extensive knowledge about Subwoofers, to
the point of even building your own.
I personally have absolutely no clue about getting the best settings out of them.
From this picture of the rear panel that I am sending, what settings would you recommend
for the Genos?
Especially regarding the High Cut and Boost Frequency.
It is a 2200W powered Subwoofer.
Thank you in advance for any suggestions.
Best Regards.
Abby.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I performed 6 to 7 days/nights a week for decades, and I carried a Bose L1 Compact, spare mics, spare cables, even a spare laptop. I had a complete, identical setup at home ready to go in the event of a catastrophic failure, which never happened. However, I did have an amp failure, once, and within five minutes, I replaced it with my spare and was back in business.
Like Abby, I had contracts, 50 of them, that had to be fulfilled, which was my legal obligation to my clients. When I was hospitalized, I made arrangements for someone to cover for me, which was spelled out in my contract.
I carried all my gear in my Dodge Grand Caravan with room to spare. If the van were to drop dead, I could fit all my gear in my wife's Buick and still go to work until the van was repaired - that never happened.
I have seen many of Abby's performances on You Tube, and his piano is an integral part of his overall performance. Keep in mind that not only is Abby a great musician, he is also a fantastic entertainer. He utilizes both the keyboard and piano to their fullest. Audiences see this and respond positively, which is why he is in demand. If his keyboard were to unexpectedly die on the job, I'm confident he could finish the performance using just his piano and vocals and the audience would be none the wiser.
In my case, most of my performances were just an hour long, sometimes two shows a day and on rare occasions, three performances a day. Therefore, I streamlined my setup, selected the lightest gear possible that would provide the highest quality sounds, which decreased my setup and tear-down time to just 7 minutes and I never broke into a sweat. Because I relied heavily on my vocals, if my keyboard were to die on the spot, I would be able to finish the job by just utilizing my laptop PC, prerecorded midi files, Van Basco's MIDI/Karaoke Player and my amp. The keyboard would be replaced as soon as I got home and primary board would go to the repair center the same day. In this instance, I was no different than the plumber with extra spigot washers in the truck, or the electrician with spare circuit breakers and wire on hand.
Home players and weekend warriors who do not rely on their equipment to make a living have far more flexibility and do not have to load and unload their equipment on a daily basis, which can be hard on sensitive electronic gear, especially arranger keyboards which have dozens of tiny plugs and multiple circuit boards. As a pro, musical entertainer, we must treat this as a business venture, with such additional expenses as backup equipment. Fortunately, our equipment is very reliable and failures are extremely rare.
Fortunately, Abby has been able to resolve some of his issues and work around others. Hopefully, he will not experience another freeze-up.
Good luck,
Gary 8)
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Hi Abby. I'm glad to help with you subwoofer settings.
The sub is designed to extend the low-frequency range of your two Mains. It would be handy to have the frequency response specs for your Mains, but I'd wager they probably produce frequencies down to about 55 Hz. Depending on how the Low Cut filter is designed, the Mains may be able to reproduce a four string bass guitar open E note, which is 41 Hz, but not very loud or warm. That's where the sub helps.
Your picture shows a High Cut knob. In plain English, the term, "High Cut" (also known as a High Pass filter) means "What is the highest frequency that I want my subwoofer to produce?" I can only see part of the range because the knob is in the way, but I'm assuming the range is from 50 Hz to 150 Hz? You currently have it set at 100 Hz. This means the subwoofer is producing all notes up to 100 Hz and probably a bit more. This is too high because your Mains can easily produce frequencies down to 55 Hz. In plain English, this means that the frequencies between 55 Hz and 100 Hz are being produced by all three speakers - not good. This can create a very muddy sound and also give you a lot of undefined bass.
Therefore, I would set the High Cut at 80 Hz and no higher. My two Bose Compacts are very linear down to 65 Hz. I also set my High Cut to 80 Hz.
The Boost knob is used for filling in a low-frequency sound that has been canceled usually due to room response or phase issues between the Mains and your sub. The good news is, you can turn the Boost switch Off. Your speakers are of very good quality, so it's highly unlikely you need to boost any frequency. One exception is if your playing dinner music where the ambient noise is fairly low and you just want to warm up the bass a bit. In that case, you can turn the switch On and set the boost to about 45 Hz. You can do that by playing a chord on the Genos and listening to the bass line to see if there is an improvement. If you don't hear a drastic improvement, leave it Off. Without a huge explanation about the Phase switch, set it to the Norm position.
Final settings
Set the High Cut to 80 Hz
Set the Boost switch to Off
Set the Phase to Norm
Let me know how it works for you. There should be a huge improvement in the bass clarity. As a side note, your current settings can create howling and rumble in a hall the tends to echo. That's the last thing you need!
- Lee
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Thank you Gary for your comments and praise.
What you say regarding gear, set up and tear down times is the truth.
I've always been a big fan of yours and highly value your professional
tips.
You know the joys and stresses of this job.
I have to rush off to my gig now so I can't add more comments.
Best Regards.
Abby.
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Hello Lee.
Thank you for the quick response, much appreciated.
I'm of to try out your suggestions now, and will let you know the results.
Best Regards.
Abby.
-
Stuart, Abby uses some heavy-duty equipment while performing, and most of the USP systems I've seen that would handle that much current cost well over $200. The system you quoted would be for the keyboard only and not the amps, mixer, lights, etc...
Gary 8)
Right Gary... the UPS should only be needed on gear that contains computer- based OSs and have significant restart (boot up) times, like the Genos.
A good EMI/RFI filtering surge protector should be used ahead of all the gear. IMHO of course.
-
Hi Gary,
Your experience information is very interesting and useful.
Thank you so much for sharing it. I learned a lot.
In my perception the daily life of a One Man's Band is not easy at all.
Expensive and heavy equipment ( = big car, reliable instrument(s), mics, amplifiers, speakers, mixer etc.), no personnel and long, late and hard working hours.
And ... last but not least : almost no family life.
It looks like a pro gigger needs a lot of work and customers to have an attractive income.
Nowadays not so easy to find, I guess.
Best wishes, Babette
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Glad to help, Abby! Yes please, let us know if you hear any improvement. If not, please post links to the speaker specs of your Mains and sub. Thanks...
- Lee
-
.......I think you have to learn a lot about how to use and how to handle
a complex instrument as a Genos .
That takes time and you are in this situation just a "beginner" .
So start learning today and try to understand your instrument .
Normal members do not write long messages with only complaints .
When a normal player does not understand something he/she askes "how to questions "
Employees in musicshops think that you are payed for your bashing messages , that could be right .
I am not sure that you own a Genos .
Mark Z. keeps claiming anyone who critisizes Genos does not own one. Last year he claimed I did not have one. Dear Pianoman, just wait and he will call you a "Clown", a title he he was allowed to bestow on me. He also claimed I was considered a fool on German sites just like he claims "Employees in musicshops think that you are payed for your bashing messages"
For reasons I have not been able to find out Mark Z. enjoys special protection on this site.
Cheers
Kaarlo
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Abby, just curious: Where on the keyboard do you use RADIATOR FLUID. (Just kidding a little). Wish you all the best with your gigs, and am happy that you are starting to be friends with your Genos.
-
Babette,
.....It appears you either love Genos, or hate it, and there’s not much in between....
Cheers,
Fred
Hello Fred,
I am kind of "in between" and hope the update will push me to the "supporters". I remember your list, hope YAMAHA did what you asked for.
BTW, did anyone dare bet with you about whether there will be an update? Needless to say, I did not.
Cheers
Kaartlo
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It might happen electronic instruments and/or computers are freezing.
Maybe most of us experienced this frustrating action once or twice.
The reason why it happens is not easy to find out. IMHO technicians can answer that question.
Babette
You are right. As has been said here, the mains in the place you gig at are a critical factor. I had the problem a few times with Genos. But it was always in hotels in the countryside, never in Helsinki.
It never happened to me with the Tyros series, so it might also have to do with how big the capacitors on the DC side in the electronics are. I opened up my Genos to make the smallest range of the pitchbender less than 1/2 note (which is ok for hawai-guitars and trombones but too much for saxes and trumpets) So I contemplated to install additional capacitors but did not do that because I was afraid the additional currant draw to charge the capacitors on power up might be a problem.
Cheers
Kaarlo
-
Mark Z. keeps claiming anyone who critisizes Genos does not own one. Last year he claimed I did not have one. Dear Pianoman, just wait and he will call you a "Clown", a title he he was allowed to bestow on me. He also claimed I was considered a fool on German sites just like he claims "Employees in musicshops think that you are payed for your bashing messages"
For reasons I have not been able to find out Mark Z. enjoys special protection on this site.
Cheers
Kaarlo
Hello Kaarlo.
It's good to hear from you.
I did answer Mr. Mark Z here and also posted the answer to him via PM as well,
in case he missed it here in this thread.
I got a nasty response and an even nastier PM back for my efforts to encourage civility.
The vitriol was ferocious and unwarranted.
Such things are just not done between members.
But these are the times that we live in, where anonymity on the internet encourages
the worst instincts in people.
I'm not sure about the subject of Mr.Mark Z enjoying special protection, but I do remember
that when he called you a "Clown in a white suit" I was the only one who condemned
such language.
I did urge others to condemn it too, and all I heard was silence.
Silence in a situation like that is also a form of approval.
It is very normal to love one's instrument, especially after having paid a lot of money for it,
But to try and oblige others to do the same, and insult them if they don't, , or to form a cult
mentality around an inanimate object is weird, to say the least.
Best Regards.
Abby.
-
Mark has no special protection, he is now gone from the forum.
Sometimes the moderators just miss things, or decide to allow it to run to see if it is a one off, but it is now dealt with.
Mike
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Glad to help, Abby! Yes please, let us know if you hear any improvement. If not, please post links to the speaker specs of your Mains and sub. Thanks...
- Lee
Hello Lee.
I did try your recommendations last night and set the High Cut to 80 Hz and the boost
to off.
There was a marked improvement in the Sub's sound response, giving a rich overall
sound to the Genos.
Midway through the gig I decided to set the High Cut down to 70Hz and switchiing on
the Boost but leaving it on 40 Hz.
Both sounded good, but regarding the 70Hz and 40Hz Boost, it could also have been
because of the room that I played in, which had plenty of wood panelling and carpets.
Here are the specifications for the mains and the sub that you requested.
They're the only ones that I could find.
Best Regards.
Abby.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Hi Abby :
Silence does not ( always ) mean I agree with comments given by some ( ex ) members of this group.
As far as I know only moderators of this group have the power to act if comments are not acceptable.
Babette
-
Thanks for the specs, Abby. I'm glad to hear there was an improvement. You are 100 percent correct in trying some adjustments outside of my basic recommendations. The room and people within it can have a pronounced effect on the overall sound.
Even professional loudspeaker designers who use very sophisticated software agree that when the equations and frequency response graphs show a near perfect speaker design, their ears are the final judge. They often make adjustments to the crossover circuitry that messes up those graphs but for some reason, the speaker just sounds better in the test booth.
I'll read through those specs and post back soon. Thanks...
- Lee
-
Hi Abby,
I just went through your speaker specs. I was very curious to know the dB level of the Boost circuitry. The bass is boosted by 10 dB at the selected frequency, with a Q value = 1!! This means, if you turn the Boost on, the chosen frequency is boosted to twice the perceived volume. I would reserve that setting for outdoors only.
According to the spec sheet, your Mains respond from 55 Hz to 16,000 Hz. Your sub has a usable frequency range of 45 Hz to 150 Hz. The specs also mention that the sub can reproduce frequencies down to 32 Hz, but that's at -10dB. This means the sub is really only effective down to 45 Hz and maybe a little lower. Bass guitar notes in the low range will sound okay but a lot of the lower harmonics that give the bass a warm sound will be missing. Perhaps you hear this too? Worse, is the fact that a lot of the bass notes are being reproduced by all three speakers, which can create issues. You're probably achieving a decent sound but I question whether the Behringer is a good match with the EONS, especially at 42 kg. The last thing I want to you think is that you bought the wrong sub! As mentioned, if the sound is pleasing to you, the patrons, the crowd, and management, then you're winning. The EONS are pretty linear down to 55 Hz. It would be nice to have a sub that can be dialed down to 60 Hz or so. But as engineers say, "You either raise the bridge or lower the river."
Here are some further recommendations for your setup:- Leave the High cut on the sub at 70 dB
- Place the sub off center to the Mains and the wall behind it, if there is one. Never center your sub on stage. Also, never place any speaker in a corner.
- If there is a wall behind the sub, keep the sub off that wall by at least one foot or about one-third of a meter
- Turn down the Bass controls that feed the two EONS from your mixer. If you can force the EONS to only reproduce frequencies down to about 65 Hz, you'll hear a huge difference.
That's about it for now, Abby. Give these further ideas another try. I may have some other suggestions. Please send me the model number of your Yamaha mixer. I may be able to offer further adjustments at the source. Wish I could be there to work on this with you!! We'd have a lot of fun. Thanks...
- Lee
-
Abby, When MarkZ made that statement about Kaarlo, I sent Mark a PM and informed his this would not be tolerated. Apparently, he did not get the message.
Gary 8)
-
Hello Gary.
You're a "Gent" as the English would say.
Mind you, wasn't flinging accusations in every direction.
I knew that there would be responsible people like yourself or Mike
who wouldn't let that kind of behaviour stand.
I'm enjoying a night off tonight and getting ready to treat my wife to
a nice Italian dinner.
Best Regards.
Abby.
-
Enjoy your evening, Abby !😁
Babette
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Hi Abby,
I just went through your speaker specs. I was very curious to know the dB level of the Boost circuitry. The bass is boosted by 10 dB at the selected frequency, with a Q value = 1!! This means, if you turn the Boost on, the chosen frequency is boosted to twice the perceived volume. I would reserve that setting for outdoors only.
According to the spec sheet, your Mains respond from 55 Hz to 16,000 Hz. Your sub has a usable frequency range of 45 Hz to 150 Hz. The specs also mention that the sub can reproduce frequencies down to 32 Hz, but that's at -10dB. This means the sub is really only effective down to 45 Hz and maybe a little lower. Bass guitar notes in the low range will sound okay but a lot of the lower harmonics that give the bass a warm sound will be missing. Perhaps you hear this too? Worse, is the fact that a lot of the bass notes are being reproduced by all three speakers, which can create issues. You're probably achieving a decent sound but I question whether the Behringer is a good match with the EONS, especially at 42 kg. The last thing I want to you think is that you bought the wrong sub! As mentioned, if the sound is pleasing to you, the patrons, the crowd, and management, then you're winning. The EONS are pretty linear down to 55 Hz. It would be nice to have a sub that can be dialed down to 60 Hz or so. But as engineers say, "You either raise the bridge or lower the river."
Here are some further recommendations for your setup:- Leave the High cut on the sub at 70 dB
- Place the sub off center to the Mains and the wall behind it, if there is one. Never center your sub on stage. Also, never place any speaker in a corner.
- If there is a wall behind the sub, keep the sub off that wall by at least one foot or about one-third of a meter
- Turn down the Bass controls that feed the two EONS from your mixer. If you can force the EONS to only reproduce frequencies down to about 65 Hz, you'll hear a huge difference.
That's about it for now, Abby. Give these further ideas another try. I may have some other suggestions. Please send me the model number of your Yamaha mixer. I may be able to offer further adjustments at the source. Wish I could be there to work on this with you!! We'd have a lot of fun. Thanks...
- Lee
Hello Lee.
First off, I would like to say a big thank you for your help.
This is a great analysis, and I will definitely try out all the ideas that you suggested.
A lot of the things you wrote make sense to me now and provide me a with better
understanding about the Sub and it's relation to the mains.
I probably did buy the wrong Subwoofer. It was recommended by a friend who
uses one, but in combination with 12 inch QSC active mains and a Soundcraft
mixer.
Anyway, here is the information on my Yamaha EMX 5016CF Powered mixer.
I hope it is helpful.
You'll have to scroll down to page 35 for the technical specifications.
Best Regards.
Abby.
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Enjoy your evening, Abby !😁
Babette
Thank you Babette .
As you said in your post above, one of the penalties of being a pro gigging musician
is that it's not easy on the family.
So I always try to treat my wife to a nice evening out when I'm free.
Or I cook her a nice dinner if she prefers to stay at home.
Best Regards.
Abby.
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Abby,
You have applied EQ settings for each voices and every part of the style individually.
You have applied master EQ settings for your keyboard.
You have an equalizer to connect your two organ.
and you have a subwoofer with some EQ settings on it.
These all four different EQ settings affect the SAME frequencies of a sound.
(apart from the subwoofer which affects only the low frequencies as we know)
Lets say now that you lower the frequency of 440hz which is the middle A note to the style parts with the use of an effect.
The same frequency of 440hz you have boost it with your master keyboard settings.
The same frequency you have lower it down again with your Equalizer equipment besides you.
And let's say that there are too many objects in the venue that react to the frequency of 440hz so they boost it again.
How is this frequency will sound in the end? boosted or not?
With one EQ setting (part settings) we boost a sound with the other EQ (master settings) we feel it is too boosted so we want to lower it down again,so why did we have boosted it in the first place?
This is how I understand the hard part with the sound,the EQ settings AND the effects we choose.Too many parameters :(
With your Tyros over the years you have found the EQ settings that worked fine in most cases.
Genos as any other instrument can do it also but it will take you time to find out the settings that work for you.
As John has called me on Mark's thread:
"The clown with the accordion"
This is our way as friends in this forum to deal with stuff we don't like.
We are here to learn how we can improve our playing and the usage of all the functions our keyboards provide us and this is what this forum it is for. :)
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Glad to help, Abby! Dinner? What time would you like us all there? We'll need an address and directions :)! Should we bring wine, dessert...?
Excellent points, Panos. The EQ settings inside the Genos should be set fairly flat. As Panos writes, you don't want too many EQ settings in the signal chain fighting with one another. The EQ Gold settings may not be appropriate. Abby, did you specify your Genos Master EQ and compression settings? If not, please do so. Thanks for the Yamaha mixer PDF. I'll give a look.
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Just looking at the mixer PDF, Abby.
Are you feeding the sub with a signal that is unaffected by the Master EQ on the mixer? Do you feed the sub through the Aux 1 or 2 output jacks? If so, try pulling back the 63 Hz band on the Master EQ all the way (-12 dB). This should prevent any frequencies lower than 63 Hz from reaching your Mains. You want a way to only let the Mains play from about 90 Hz and above. Everything below 90 Hz can be played by the sub. If I'm right, the result should be an even better bass definition.
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Hello Lee.
Dinner was great and the wife loved it.
I normally leave the individual channel EQ settings to unity or neutral, I'm never sure
about the name.
The piano has it's own onboard EQ so I leave it at neutral too.
The same goes for the Microphone though I often lower the low frequency by
about 20%.
I sometimes raise the three highest frequencies on the digital EQ of the mixer by
1,2, and 3 Decibels, from the third last to the last, respectively.
I use Natural Compression and either modified Bright EQ settings or slightly modified
Lee Batchelor settings, depending on the room.
I'm attaching two examples of the EQ settings.
I don't know why one of the pictures is upside down.
Best Regards.
Abby.
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Hi Abby,
Yes, dinner must have been good. I could smell it all the way over here, just east of Toronto, Ontario (LOL) ;D! Next time, a little more garlic please :).
The Bright settings are fine, but the EQ Lee & Me settings are also fine and won't interfere with bass sounds you are trying to clean up. The EQ Lee & Me setting boosts the overall midrange, in particular, the vocal area. These frequencies make up the bulk of what we hear on well-produced CDs and are very carefully watched by the recording studio techs. I don't see that you need to change anything on the Genos. The slight boost in the mixer digital EQ is fine too. You may encounter some feedback if you push beyond 3 dB. You'll know it. Give my previous ideas a try - especially the cut on the mixer at 65 Hz. Let us know. Thanks...
- Lee
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Hello Lee.
Thanks for your response and clarifications.
I will try out your recommendations tomorrow and let you know.
I'll be playing tonight, but only on the hotel's grand piano for an hour.
I'll just take my mixer and PA system with me though I don't think that there
will be any singing.
It's a wedding reception in the hotel bar, and they just want background music
for an hour.
Then they'll go downstairs to the Discotheque for the rest of their business.
Best Regards.
Abby.
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This is not going to be popular, but when you boost EVERY band of e.q., you are basically turning the volume up and possible adding noise.
Most real experts advise cutting some bands if necessary and SLIGHTLY boosting some if needed. If you are boosting any band more than five or six decibels, something else is wrong.
And be careful of using both the keyboards internal e.q. and also the mixer e.q. It's easy to over boost bands that way. I usually e.q. the keyboard from the internal settings and leave the mixer flat for the keyboard.
You can use the mixer e.q. for vocals or other things plugged directly into it.
Also, those of us who have been doing this a LONG time have generally lost some high frequency hearing, so it is very tempting to overdo the high end and make it to shrill for the audience. Guilty here, especially as the night goes on and hearing changes, and you are tempted to make e.q. changes. I never touch the e.q. during the evening unless something feeds back, which is extremely rare with the speakers and setup I use, even though my ears may be telling me to twist knobs.
Over the years many of us became accustomed to using, and hearing, the infamous "V" e.q. setting, where highs and lows are boosted and mids cut. That may have been necessary "back then", but the modern p.a. systems and other gear are better and reproduce sounds more naturally.
A top sound man once was asked how he e.q.d a band and he said, "I ask myself if I can clearly hear the bass, hear the guitar, hear the drums and all other instruments, make adjustments as necessary, and then leave it alone!"
E.Q. --- a little bit goes a long way.
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Actually, Don - you're 100 percent correct.
The only reason I boost in that range on my Genos is to enhance the same area the studio producers do when finalizing a CD. My Soundcraft mixer runs flat all the time for the Genos channels. I roll the bass back a bit for my two singers because they have very warm voices in the lower range - almost too much if that's possible :).
Good advice, my friend.
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No EQ worries tonight.
I got back from the gig an hour ago.
I just pushed out the Grand piano that you see in the picture above , and tinkled
for an hour or so, took my 300 Euros and came home.
No Keyboards, EPs, or Subwoofer.
I just took the JBLs and mixer, but sang about 6 songs.
The rest of the hour was just background piano.
Best Regards.
Abby.
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Those gigs are gold, Abby! Good for you my friend. I just may hop a plane and come over to hear you play. Mind if I join you on the piano?
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Lee, I had serious thoughts of doing this, hopping on a jet and heading for Ibiza. However, turns out there are some problems packing a portable oxygen generator on a plane these days. Plus, recharging them in some nations would be out of the question.
Also thought about sailing my sailboat there, but I'm just too damned old to cross the Atlantic on a 33-foot sailing yacht. The trip takes about 3 weeks under ideal conditions, too much for this old fart. :)
Good luck,
Gary 8)
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Those gigs are gold, Abby! Good for you my friend. I just may hop a plane and come over to hear you play. Mind if I join you on the piano?
You're all welcome to Ibiza, and on the piano.
Mind you, this place is wild and expensive in the summer.
Wild women come here, and....ahem.....men too..
.
Still waiting for Gary.
Best Regards.
Abby.
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Lee, I had serious thoughts of doing this, hopping on a jet and heading for Ibiza. However, turns out there are some problems packing a portable oxygen generator on a plane these days. Plus, recharging them in some nations would be out of the question.
Also thought about sailing my sailboat there, but I'm just too damned old to cross the Atlantic on a 33-foot sailing yacht. The trip takes about 3 weeks under ideal conditions, too much for this old fart. :)
Good luck,
Gary 8)
Or, Abby could come and visit you. I'll need your address :)!
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Hi Abby,
One more note about the sub.
According to the pictures you have Behringer B1500HP Eurolive.
If this is correct, you have an active crossover in it.
The best way to utilize it is get the JBL's connected to it using the output channels.
The way to do it is run your L & R balanced XLR from the mixer to the sub input, and then from the sub-outputs to your left and right speakers.
If connected like that, it means that the split of frequencies will happen without special attention.
The crossover on the sub is making sure that only the mid/high frequencies are getting to the main speakers while the low frequencies comes from the sub only.
This way there is less concerns about doubling the low-mid range (which often is the "muddy") issues you get.
To make sure you get the most of each room, set you Genos to play and start moving the crossover point until it sounds the best.
(Each venue will have a different cross spot).
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Thanks, Yinon. I didn't see that. Excellent idea. That takes all the guesswork out. It will also tell you if the Behringer sub is up to the task, which it probably is :).
Also, the Outputs to the EONS appear to be crossed at 100 Hz, by looking at the label. This means the sub will handle frequencies from 100 Hz and lower. The EONS will handle frequencies 100 Hz and higher.
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Thanks for the tip Yinon and Lee.
It is indeed the Behringer B1500HP Eurolive Sub.
I'm using passive speakers though, so I'm not sure if that also applies to passive
speakers too.
If they do, that would be fantastic. I would just need to buy a couple more cables.
My speakers are EON 1500s.
Best Regards.
Abby.
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I don't think that works on passive speakers. You would need to route the XLR outputs from the sub to a power amp, or powered mixer, and then to the EONS. Opinions anyone?
Or could Abby use his Yamaha powered mixer as "the mixer" in the above statement? I've never routed signal in that fashion. Too convoluted.
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Hi Abby,
Unfortunately - this will not work with passive speakers. :-\
But now that Lee identifies the cross point for the JBL's (100KHz), it's an easier task.
Dial the 100KHz cross point on the sub and there should be no redundancy in frequencies.
One more thought ...
I know I may be out of line but perhaps you should consider a different PA system mainly as you gig every night ...
I'm using 2 L1 compacts for small venues (up to 70 people).
I'm using 2 EV Evolve 50 for mid size venues (up to 150 people)
I'm using my EV ZLX 12" and EV 18 sub for anything lrger than 150 ...
All are powered.
This allows me to reduce the mixer to a small Mackie ProFX12V2 (very small and light) ....
This saves a lot of room in the car (...and a lot of weight off my back).
The L1's and Evolve's are taking less than one min to setup and tear down ....
Absolutely recommended.
Cheers!
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Ditto on using self-powered line array systems like the L1 or any of the LD-Systems products, from the Maul 5 on up to their beastly systems.
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I'm forced to agree, Abby. Your current setup probably sounds great, but there are far lighter options these days. I can see wanting to keep the Kawai piano, even at 70+ pounds. If your budget permits, perhaps it's time to buy an inclusive powered system, that is Mains and sub that are engineered to work together. There a ton of options from which to choose.
Guys and gals, I just hope we didn't plant the seeds in Abby's head that will land him in trouble with "Mrs. Abby" :)!
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http://fohonline.com/articles/road-tests/yamaha-dzr10-d-and-dxs15-xlf-speakers/ http://www.audiotechnology.com/yamaha-dzr-series-powered-speakers/ Dante version not necessary here to keep cost down... And to quote foh-online "so when I say the Yamaha DZR/DXS speakers sound magnificent, it doesn’t come lightly"
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....However, turns out there are some problems packing a portable oxygen generator on a plane these days....
Good luck,
Gary 8)
As so often, when I read that, I felt I have overstayed my welcome in this world. My son is paralyzed (accident driving his YAMAHA motorbike).He he now has "an external sceleton suit". Has participated in a 200 m "marathon". But coming to Finland from Italy he needs many hours to "clear" the security inspection. They must make sure he is not a terrorist in disguise intending to blow up the plane.
Due to the fact that I since 30 years perform only to collect money for charity Finnair, SAS, Lufthansa and Alitalia graciously used to carry all my equipment, some 100 kg for free. Haven't had gigs abroad since two years so I am not sure, but I suspect they would say "that was then".
Cheers
Kaarlo
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So sorry to hear about your son, Kaarlo. No parent (or child) should have to go through that. It's a sad state of affairs when the world treats those who try to do good, as terrorists. Equally sad when they won't help you do charity work. My thoughts are with you, my friend.
- Lee
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So sorry to hear about your son, Kaarlo. No parent (or child) should have to go through that. It's a sad state of affairs when the world treats those who try to do good, as terrorists. Equally sad when they won't help you do charity work. My thoughts are with you, my friend.
- Lee
Kaarlo, I echo Lee’s comments, sorry to hear of your problems.
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So am I Kaarlo.
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Hello Karlo, I am very sorry about your son, I accompany you with my thoughts. a hug. Hans