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Genos (12 Boards) => Genos - General => Topic started by: ugawoga on November 23, 2017, 09:57:20 AM

Title: Genos setup
Post by: ugawoga on November 23, 2017, 09:57:20 AM
Hi
The reason I put this query here is this section Is mostly looked at and I am getting frustrated

The Genos is ok.
The problem is my new Yamaha DXR8 speakers.
I am getting a buzz from them as they are higher powered and sound great at low volume.

I plug one DXR 8 In to the mains on a six gang surge protection unit  and no Buzz when turning up speakers.
I plug the other one In and the Buzz starts.
I cannot understand this as they are both from the same outlet
Do all Pa speakers buzz when turning them up???
I thought It was my computers causing this at first , but I whittled them down to just the two speakers in the same board from the same outlet.
Anyone got any ideas as I do not want to pay out another £50 to see if a mains cleaner works .
But that will not stop ground loops I am told.
Are the Dxr 8 just too powerful for a 10ft x 10ft room even at low volume, but they do sound nice and full bodied and clear.

All the best
John
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: zionip on November 23, 2017, 10:25:31 AM
Hi
The reason I put this query here is this section Is mostly looked at and I am getting frustrated

The Genos is ok.
The problem is my new Yamaha DXR8 speakers.
I am getting a buzz from them as they are higher powered and sound great at low volume.

I plug one DXR 8 In to the mains on a six gang surge protection unit  and no Buzz when turning up speakers.
I plug the other one In and the Buzz starts.
I cannot understand this as they are both from the same outlet
Do all Pa speakers buzz when turning them up???
I thought It was my computers causing this at first , but I whittled them down to just the two speakers in the same board from the same outlet.
Anyone got any ideas as I do not want to pay out another £50 to see if a mains cleaner works .
But that will not stop ground loops I am told.
Are the Dxr 8 just too powerful for a 10ft x 10ft room even at low volume, but they do sound nice and full bodied and clear.

All the best
John

Hi John,

I had similar problem before, and the cause was a bad unbalanced cable with 1/4 inch jacks.  Once the cable was replaced, the hums went away.  Ideally if you use balanced connections for your equipment if supported, hums and buzz will be minimized.

For overall cleaner sounds you may need a power conditioner like this Furman M-8Dx Merit Series Power Conditioning, 15 Amp, 9 Outlets with Wall Wart Spacing, Pullout Lights, Digital Voltmeter:
https://www.amazon.com/Furman-Conditioning-Outlets-Spacing-Voltmeter/dp/B00145EVJ6/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1511433208&sr=1-1-spons&keywords=power+conditioner+rack+mount&psc=1

Yes, even high quality PA system could be noisy.  Many years ago I used a very high quality Crown power amp with a pair of Community PA speakers and they were loud without hums or buzz.  I also used 2 big Roland KC-500 keyboard amps (the predecessor of KC-550) with great results at lower volume levels, but when pushed for very high volume levels, I could hear some hums.

Thanks,
Paul
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: ugawoga on November 23, 2017, 11:16:39 AM
Hi Paul

I have tried two sets of speaker cable of high quality and I get the same buzz---It Is not the leads to the speakers-. I wished It was as simple as your situation.
The Dxr8,s are quite powerfull amps and I do not know whether a buzz is normal for pa speakers.
I can eliminate the buzz if I turn the speakers just under a quarter volume and turn the Genos up to half way and that is quite a volume.
So I do not know whether you should be happy with that and live with the interference.
It is odd that one speaker plugged In is clear as a bell even at full volume,but plug the other in the same board and oulet  and the buzz returns
I even swapped around the order of plugging in the speakers and the same happens.
How can two powered speakers plugged into the same board cause a ground loop??
Would a mains conditioner from Maplins do the job. About £40 uk money


All the best
John


Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: DavidB on November 23, 2017, 11:24:25 AM

How can two powere speakers plugged into the same board cause a ground loop??


Because you also need to take into account the mains ground and how that might be connected internally in both the Keyboard and each speaker. You are then creating a loop with the shield on the audio cables... potentially. Although I would expect them to be isolated within the Genos. I never had to suffer a hum from my Tyros to my Stagepas 300, but I haven't tried the Genos. In any event, it's a different set up with the keyboard feeding one amplifier which then feeds both speakers. I think in your case, each speaker has it's own amp right?

I thought you had decided against the DXR's and were going for the HS8's?

Hope you get it solved, but I suspect you will end up putting some sort of ground loop isolation in place if you keep this set up

Best wishes,
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: ugawoga on November 23, 2017, 11:44:20 AM
Hi Dave

I was going for Hs8's, but was recommended the Dxr8's
The sound quality is amazing off of these speakers.I kept my Tapco monitors for mixing.

Each Dxr has It's own amp.
The only thing I can think of is a mains conditioner, but that may be no good for what may be a ground loop. I am lost with all this loop stuff.
The guy at yamaha guy said that the Dxr8's are quality. I suppose they would say that.

Al the best
John
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: zionip on November 23, 2017, 11:46:57 AM
Hi John,

If this is not a cable issue, then I would recommend you to try and order a power conditioner, which provides much cleaner sounds because this kind of product purifies and stabilizes the electric current and in most cases gets rid of hums and buzz entirely.  Make sure you connect the power conditioner straight to a known clean wall socket and connect your equipment to it, and buy it from a place with good return policy just in case it does not solve your problem.

I have an old Juice Goose power distribution center with pull out lights and line conditioning, very reliable and convenient:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/tyPpZXmqW88GRtin1

I sincerely hope that you can resolve your problem very soon.

Thanks,
Paul
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: ugawoga on November 23, 2017, 11:54:10 AM
Hi paul
one last thing
Can two poweed speakers in the same board to same outlet cause a ground loop ???
I will of course try Maplins for that mains conditioner, but ask them about returns ,just in case.

All the best
john
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: zionip on November 23, 2017, 11:59:36 AM
Hi paul
one last thing
Can two poweed speakers in the same board to same outlet cause a ground loop ???
I will of course try Maplins for that mains conditioner, but ask them about returns ,just in case.

All the best
john

Hi John,

Did you test the speakers individually just on its own?  Say, power on speaker A only, no problem.  Then power off speaker A, power on speaker B only, still no problem?  I only know that when you powered on both, the hums began.

Thanks,
Paul
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: zionip on November 23, 2017, 12:10:02 PM
Looked at the specs of Yamaha DXR8 powered PA speakers, they are definitely above the specs of HS8 near field monitors.  The DXR8s are much louder, more flexible, ready for gigs, also quite a bit more expensive.

Paul
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: ugawoga on November 23, 2017, 12:12:13 PM
Hi Paul

I plugged In Speaker A  with leads attached to the genos and no buzz.
I plugged In speaker B and I get the buzz.

I reversed this and plugged in speaker B first no buzz and then speaker A and the buzz returned again.

This is what baffles me!!

All the best
John :)
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: zionip on November 23, 2017, 12:20:53 PM
Hi Paul

I plugged In Speaker A  with leads attached to the genos and no buzz.
I plugged In speaker B and I get the buzz.

I reversed this and plugged in speaker B first no buzz and then speaker A and the buzz returned again.

This is what baffles me!!

All the best
John :)

OK, the picture is a bit clearer now.

Could it be your Genos introduced the noise?  Did you test each individual main output of Genos for noise level one at a time?

I noticed my Genos was very noise in audio recording when I connected a Zoom H4N recorder to the unbalanced stereo main out of the Genos.  The GNS-MS01 speaker system was extremely clean though, but it cannot match the power and tonal performance of the DXR8s.  I connected Genos stereo main outputs to an old pair of 20w per side powered Yamaha MS202ii speakers and they sounded clean though.

Paul
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: markstyles on November 23, 2017, 12:30:17 PM
One thing to try is get all equipment, plugged into a powerstrip on same AC socket..  Since you did your experiment,  it implies the problem is something to do with amp, speakers, cable, rather than your kbd..  Try a different kbd.. Might be one of the cables

An old trick is to 'lift the ground'.  That is get those (in USA) three prong adapters, and cut of the grounding plug..  Do get the buzz if you plug a different kbd into it?... 

A UPS (uninterruptible power   supply) is a good idea..  It takes in AC, and stores it in a battery.. and then power is siphoned off the battery.. Helps solve some problem. Great for computers too.  If AC varies too much.  It keeps the Electricity supply clean and consistent.  Also if power fails, the UPS will run for several minutes, before the battery is drained.. Enough to shut off computers properly, not such a worry for kids, but it's an extra precaution..
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: zionip on November 23, 2017, 12:43:37 PM
A UPS (uninterruptible power   supply) is a good idea..  It takes in AC, and stores it in a battery.. and then power is siphoned off the battery.. Helps solve some problem. Great for computers too.  If AC varies too much.  It keeps the Electricity supply clean and consistent.  Also if power fails, the UPS will run for several minutes, before the battery is drained.. Enough to shut off computers properly, not such a worry for kids, but it's an extra precaution..

Great idea of UPS.

I had the experience of several APC UPSes went out of order in a couple of years due to battery failures.  I found this Tripp-Lite SmartPro LCD 120V 1200VA 700W Line-Interactive UPS very affordable (I found lower price locally), reliable, and long lasting, with relatively large capacity:
https://www.tripplite.com/smartpro-lcd-120v-1200va-700w-line-interactive-ups-avr-2u-rack-tower-lcd-usb-db9-serial-8-outlets~SMART1200LCD/
https://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-SMART1500LCD-Smartpro-LINE-Interactive-Outlets/dp/B01APS0QV4/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1511441656&sr=8-2-fkmr0&keywords=Tripplite+SmartPro+LCD+120V+1200VA+700W+Line-Interactive+UPS

Thanks,
Paul
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: ugawoga on November 23, 2017, 12:54:56 PM
Hi Paul

I now have tried one speaker and as soon as the keyboard is plugged in  the buzz is there .
So It seems whatever i plug in after the first speaker the buzz starts.

all the best
John

Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: zionip on November 23, 2017, 12:59:43 PM
Hi Paul

I now have tried one speaker and as soon as the keyboard is plugged in  the buzz is there .
So It seems whatever i plug in after the first speaker the buzz starts.

all the best
John

Hi John,

Your test indicates that your Genos might have been plugged into a noisy socket.  You will have the best results when your Genos is connected to a power conditioner / UPS to make it quiet.

Paul
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: alans on November 23, 2017, 01:03:21 PM
Hi John

Pleased to read you've got your Genos,but not pleased to hear of your problems,I know you had high expectations of your new setup and it is frustrating for you, hope you can find a solution for this as you have invested a lot to get the sound you wanted.

Best wishes

Alan
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: StuartR on November 23, 2017, 01:05:24 PM
Great idea of UPS.

I had the experience of several APC UPSes went out of order in a couple of years due to battery failures.  I found this Tripp-Lite SmartPro LCD 120V 1200VA 700W Line-Interactive UPS very affordable (I found lower price locally), reliable, and long lasting, with relatively large capacity:
https://www.tripplite.com/smartpro-lcd-120v-1200va-700w-line-interactive-ups-avr-2u-rack-tower-lcd-usb-db9-serial-8-outlets~SMART1200LCD/
https://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-SMART1500LCD-Smartpro-LINE-Interactive-Outlets/dp/B01APS0QV4/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1511441656&sr=8-2-fkmr0&keywords=Tripplite+SmartPro+LCD+120V+1200VA+700W+Line-Interactive+UPS

Thanks,
Paul

Be mindful of PFC (active power factor correction) when selecting a UPS. A lot of switching power supplies use PFC and would not be able to deliver their rated load if connected to a UPS that didn't supply true sinewave, PFC power. I have no idea whether Yamaha uses this type of switching power supply in their musical instruments.
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: zionip on November 23, 2017, 01:13:46 PM
Be mindful of PFC (active power factor correction) when selecting a UPS. A lot of switching power supplies use PFC and would not be able to deliver their rated load if connected to a UPS that didn't supply true sinewave, PFC power. I have no idea whether Yamaha uses this type of switching power supply in their musical instruments.

You have a point, StuartR.

So should we just consider a power conditioner a safer option for the Genos to reduce hums?

Thanks,
Paul
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: StuartR on November 23, 2017, 01:22:23 PM
You have a point, StuartR.

So should we just consider a power conditioner a safer option for the Genos to reduce hums?

Thanks,
Paul
Tracking down the source of a "hum" can challenging. I presume that unbalanced cables are being used to connect the Genos to the active speakers? The length and proximity to other cabling can be a factor in that case. It seems less likely to me that the AC mains is noisy but perhaps I'm spoiled by what we have here in the U.S.
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: voodoo on November 23, 2017, 01:23:00 PM
The safest solution is a pair of DI-boxes to cut the ground loop.

I had similar trouble with a pair of Bose L1 compact. They tend to produce a hum when power supply is not "right".
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: StuartR on November 23, 2017, 01:29:10 PM
The safest solution is a pair of DI-boxes to cut the ground loop.

I had similar trouble with a pair of Bose L1 compact. They tend to produce a hum when power supply is not "right".

Bingo. They're cheap. Use short unbalanced cables to and from the direct boxes to your Genos and speakers and whatever length balanced cables between the two DI boxes.
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: zionip on November 23, 2017, 01:33:20 PM
The safest solution is a pair of DI-boxes to cut the ground loop.

I had similar trouble with a pair of Bose L1 compact. They tend to produce a hum when power supply is not "right".

Which direct boxes would you recommend?  Active vs passive?

I used to use Whirlwind IMP 2 1-channel instrument direct boxes on stage and connected them to in-house PA system, but tthey are passive.  The active direct boxes are generally not cheap.

Paul
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: zionip on November 23, 2017, 01:46:34 PM
It looks like a pair of Countryman Type 85 active direct boxes, each costs about $179, should be very good in John's scenario:
https://www.gearank.com/guides/di-box

$154 with free shipping online:
https://www.amazon.com/Countryman-DT85-Type-Direct-Black/dp/B00BBVXW16/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1511445734&sr=1-1-fkmr0&keywords=Countryman+Type+85+active+direct+box

John will have to find a good price in UK.

Wow, this thing is hard to find in UK, and similar products are much more expensive in UK than US.

Paul
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: pjd on November 23, 2017, 02:49:05 PM
Which direct boxes would you recommend?  Active vs passive?

I'm using an ART DualZDirect passive DI with my S950. It has phase inversion, ground lift, selectable attentuation and THRU for each channel. $40 USD. Genos costs enough.  ;) I'm using the DualZDirect while awaiting the boatload of G. The ART feeds Mackie HR824mkI monitors.

There's going to be some signal loss through passive, but that's what gain staging is for. ART offers an active version of the same box for a little more money, $55 USD.

Hope this helps -- pj
 
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: EileenL on November 23, 2017, 03:08:41 PM
Hi John,
  Have you tried taking everything out of the anti surge sockets and just having the two speaker plugs in there. Are the speakers running along side a power cable.
On looking at the specs they do seem a little over kill for a small room Be fine for gigging.
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: StuartR on November 23, 2017, 03:30:42 PM
It looks like a pair of Countryman Type 85 active direct boxes, each costs about $179, should be very good in John's scenario:
https://www.gearank.com/guides/di-box

$154 with free shipping online:
https://www.amazon.com/Countryman-DT85-Type-Direct-Black/dp/B00BBVXW16/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1511445734&sr=1-1-fkmr0&keywords=Countryman+Type+85+active+direct+box

John will have to find a good price in UK.

Wow, this thing is hard to find in UK, and similar products are much more expensive in UK than US.

Paul

Don't think you're gonna need active boxes. In fact, this may work fine. It's a dual box so you only need one. Cost is about $17 us. I used one of these with my Montage.

Pyle-Pro PDC22 Dual 1/4'' Instrument To Balanced & Unbalanced (1/4''/XLR) Direct Box https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00356J8KE/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_pUUfAb7ND7N25]https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00356J8KE/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_pUUfAb7ND7N25]Pyle-Pro PDC22 Dual 1/4'' Instrument To Balanced & Unbalanced (1/4''/XLR) Direct Box https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00356J8KE/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_pUUfAb7ND7N25 (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00356J8KE/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_pUUfAb7ND7N25)
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: tyrosman on November 23, 2017, 03:57:31 PM
hi John what you could do is get contact spray and move the Jack lead in and out the socket and see if it clears the problem i have Yamaha msp 5 speakers do this on both speakers
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: zionip on November 23, 2017, 05:59:42 PM
Nice sharing on the lower priced direct boxes from so many members, really appreciate it.  That is collective wisdom.  I only had the experience with the Whirlwind IMP 2 passive DI.

Paul
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: ugawoga on November 23, 2017, 07:00:56 PM
Hi Eileen
I have done what you have said Eileen  and also rang Yamaha for advice.
The guy at Yamaha said maybe a mains cleaner plug extension which you can get at maplins might get rid of the buzz or supress it more.
The weird thing Eileen is when I plug one DXR 8 In the socket of a surge protector board with the jack lead from speaker to Genos (Genos not turned on), I get all clear even at full volume on speaker.
As soon as I put the DXR8 on the other side in the plug socket the buzz starts
If I do the same in reverse the other speaker is clear and buzz again when the next speaker is plugged in.

Also when I plug one speaker in and the Genos plugged in I get the buzz again.

So I am in a rock and hard place at the moment

If I turn up the DXR 8's to about 15% volume and turn up the Genos to half way I get  quite a hefty volume and being 15% up the buzz is virtually gone
The quality of these speakers is second to none ,but you have to eq the base down .
It will take me some time to get the levels of everything perfect.

So should I accept that and carry on or is this acceptable for £1000 set of speakers.
I mulled over the idea of giving my speakers back to the Tipsters in exchange for some lower wattage speakers under thei 30day return policy.
By the way could the fans in the speakers being upsetting things.
This is another thing after they recommended the speakers, .Fans mean added noise ,but minimal, like an I7 computer tower stack.
I am at a loss what to really do as the speakers are not cheap.

All the best
John
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: ugawoga on November 23, 2017, 07:04:45 PM
Hi Tyrosman

I will certainly give that a try.

Allt he best
John
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: ugawoga on November 23, 2017, 07:06:36 PM
Hi Stuart and Paul

I will have a look into your recommendations .


Also I like to thank Paul for trying to help me out.

All the best
John
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: Tommy 73 on November 23, 2017, 07:12:27 PM
 :)

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: ugawoga on November 23, 2017, 07:18:22 PM
Hi Tom
Does that mean hum is the same as buzz.
£120  for this device not cheap and may not work
this looks like last resort for me

All the best
John
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: Tommy 73 on November 23, 2017, 07:25:06 PM
Hi John this sound like a ground loop problem there are many manufactures out there this one won't break the bank personally i use Radial but they can be a bit pricy ... phone a good pro audio outlet like PMT or Andertons for advice and of course you can send these back if they dont work but you do sound like you are in gound loop territory to me ...a search on Google will explain all about this ...
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: Tommy 73 on November 23, 2017, 07:36:42 PM
https://www.studiospares.com/Microphones/DI-Boxes/Radial-ProD2-Dual-Passive-DI-Box_403570.htm?gclid=CID7n5e71dcCFe-7swodlD0GiA&gclsrc=ds
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: Tommy 73 on November 23, 2017, 07:37:50 PM
https://youtu.be/l4famaQmWnA
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: zionip on November 23, 2017, 07:46:55 PM
I found this Rolls HE18 Hum Eliminator has good reviews on many sites including Amazon, B&H Photo & Video, supports RCA and 1/4 inch jacks, only $38 with free shipping in US:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004E4LU0W/ref=sspa_dk_detail_1?psc=1

Same product in UK costs £83.43, ouch:
https://www.thomann.de/gb/rolls_he_18.htm

Thanks,
Paul
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: Marcus on November 23, 2017, 07:53:20 PM
Checkout this old post from Robbiedoes and his Tyros 5. Lots of info regarding his process of elimination to get rid of an annoying hum. I think it ending up being a main board, but the discussion to get to that point is quite informative.

http://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,24218.msg173475.html#msg173475

His solution was:
So as told, yesterday I removed the earthed connection on the Tyros 5 power cable only. At this moment, the noise and 9,5KHz whistle tone disappeared. The Tyros 5 seems to have problems when connected equipment (like my AW2400 harddisk recorder and the HS80/HS10W speakers) are sharing the same earthed connection with the earthed powerstrip. Even if the powerstrip itself is not connected to an earthed wall poweroutlet.

Marcus
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: Tommy 73 on November 23, 2017, 08:37:53 PM
https://airlinktransformers.com/category/balanced-power-supply
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: Tommy 73 on November 23, 2017, 08:54:10 PM
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/prepare-di
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: zionip on November 23, 2017, 09:08:54 PM
Checkout this old post from Robbiedoes and his Tyros 5. Lots of info regarding his process of elimination to get rid of an annoying hum. I think it ending up being a main board, but the discussion to get to that point is quite informative.

http://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,24218.msg173475.html#msg173475

His solution was:
So as told, yesterday I removed the earthed connection on the Tyros 5 power cable only. At this moment, the noise and 9,5KHz whistle tone disappeared. The Tyros 5 seems to have problems when connected equipment (like my AW2400 harddisk recorder and the HS80/HS10W speakers) are sharing the same earthed connection with the earthed powerstrip. Even if the powerstrip itself is not connected to an earthed wall poweroutlet.

Marcus

Hi Marcus,

Thanks for the link, it is informative.

I read the whole thread, and found that Robert's 9.5KHz whistle problem was ultimately resolved when Yamaha replaced the mainboard of his Tyros 5.  His thread of discussion reflected that quite a number of Tyros 5 owners had a lot more hum / buzz / noise related issues with their Tyros 5s when they got released, than we heard from Genos owners so far.  I am going to buy a hum eliminator for my Genos setup for peace of mind.  :)

Robert said in his thread:

"I just want to update this topic with the final solution.

It took a long breath, but exactly one year later Yamaha decided to replace the mainboard of the Tyros 5. Yesterday I've visited the Yamaha Authorised Service Centre for the replacement. Back home I've tested the Tyros 5 by connecting everything back again to a grounded outlet. I was surprised to hear that it really did solve the 9,5KHz frequency tone and happy that finally a solution has been provided. Never expected that it could be caused by the mainboard.

I have always seen the solution using non-grounded outlets for all connected equipment as a workaround. Now I can finally close this issue.

Greetings,

Robert"

Thanks,
Paul
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: ugawoga on November 23, 2017, 09:30:54 PM
Hi

Big thanks for all your tips .

Firstly I have decided to tidy up all my wiring as It looks like Clapham Junction at the moment.
I will then have another try as ground loops must be solveable
If not I will have to try one of these eliminators
The Drx speakers may be Pa powerful speakers but the quality is fantastic except for the Hum/buzz
I now have a headache crawling around under my desk and the poor old back!!!! ;D

All the best
John
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: StuartR on November 23, 2017, 10:29:34 PM
Hi

Big thanks for all your tips .

Firstly I have decided to tidy up all my wiring as It looks like Clapham Junction at the moment.
I will then have another try as ground loops must be solveable
If not I will have to try one of these eliminators
The Drx speakers may be Pa powerful speakers but the quality is fantastic except for the Hum/buzz
I now have a headache crawling around under my desk and the poor old back!!!! ;D

All the best
John

John,

Didn't remember if you said that both speakers were plugged into same AC mains outlet as Genos.
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: agoldstraw on November 23, 2017, 10:39:34 PM
Bear in mind that nearfield monitors and active (powered) PA speakers are NOT the same beast at all. Buzz shouldn't be terrible, but at rest, PA speakers generally won't be as clean and quiet as nearfields when no signal is going through them. But of course, nearfields are not practical for use in sound reinforcement scenarios by the same token.

If you're not going to be gigging at all, I'd swop for a good pair of nearfields, as the sound will be so much better anyway. Even if you are going to be gigging, you'd be far better off buying a pair of active PA speakers to cover JUST that function. I know it's more expensive and probably not want you wanted to hear. However, use either type of speaker in the situation it was not designed for, and you can expect less than optimal results.

A final thought: however much you might be tempted, do NOT disconnect the earth wire on any of the plugs – it could potentially electrocute you.

Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: ugawoga on November 24, 2017, 12:19:08 AM
Hi Stuart
Yes the speakers are plugged into the same outlet  as the Genos

All the best
John
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: ugawoga on November 24, 2017, 12:31:58 AM
Hi Mr Gold

The Dxr 8's are fantastic for detail with the Genos.
I think the solution Is backing off the speakers untill the hum is not audible and when I did this I turned the Genos up to half way, that was very high at that and had to tone It down. They are quite powerful beasts but the quality is second to none. Just trying out Spanish guitars was amazing in detail.
What put me on to these were finding out they have quality amps inside and at home the quality is there at lower volumes,even though they are pa's. Great full bodied sound.
Some people use pa's for Home Cinimas. I suppose they have Mansions!! ;D
Since this morning I have now took all leads out and I will get some cable tidies and place the leads around more orderly. have not finished yet,will try again tomorow
Also try to keep the mains leads away from the speaker leads.
Hope things go great this time. Got to keep plugging away!! :o ;D


I do have a pair of Tapco S5 monitors for mixing

All the Best
John
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: zionip on November 24, 2017, 01:00:36 AM
Hi John,

The master volume knob of the Genos can be turned very 'high' without distortion.

You mentioned "turned the Genos up to half way", did you mean 12 o'clock position?  With the Genos GNS-MS01 2.1 speaker system, I had to maximize the volume knobs on the front and back of the subwoofer, and turn the master volume knob of the Genos to 2 o'clock position to achieve acceptable volume level, which does not have any distortion at all.

Using a very old pair of Yamaha MS-202ii powered speakers, only 20W per side, at 12 o'clock position of their own master volume knobs, the master volume knob on Genos just have to be turned to 12 o'clock and the sounds produced are already very nice and loud, with excellent stereo separation, without distortion.

So in practice, you can turn the volume knob of the Genos to very high, 2 o'clock to 3 o'clock positions, the volumes of your DXR8s very low to achieve excellent sounds without any distortion or noises.

Thanks,
Paul
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: ugawoga on November 24, 2017, 12:53:17 PM
HI Paul
I backed off my Yamaha DXR 8's until the buzz had gone and that is only 25% up
I could only get the Genos at the 12 0'clock position and that is quite a hefty volume and I had to turn down the Genos a little.
I really do not need a di box as the sound is amazing at these settings.
These are really powerful pa speakers, but at low volume you get great quality and detail.
I am still keeping options open.
Now I have shorter speaker leads and can separate them now fom running alonside the mains leads as that could be part of the interference I had.
Also now I am re-laying all my leads in an orderly fashion.
At the moment I am taking things one step at a time


All the best :)
John
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: EileenL on November 24, 2017, 05:08:41 PM
Pleased to hear you are now getting sorted and Ray was able to help.
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: zionip on November 25, 2017, 10:07:53 AM
Hi John,

I am glad that you have a good handle on the PA speaker humming issue.

Seeing you problem, I ordered a US$38 rolls HE18 Hum Eliminator for peace of mind:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004E4LU0W/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I learned a lot from this thread.

Thanks,
Paul
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: ugawoga on November 25, 2017, 07:33:04 PM
Hi
Still thinking about this situation.
If you did get the ebbtech buzz eliminator can you put a lead in from the keyboard and out to the pa DXR 8.
I read In native instruments section that you must not connect a lead from an amp to a speaker.
The amp is in the speaker so what is the situation there.
Also does a cheaper buzz or hum eliminator degradate the sound  from the speakers???
I am not too worried about this as backing off the speakers to just under a quarter volume  and turning up the Genos to 12 '0clock you get sufficient volume for a room and the quality is 100%.
It would be nice to kill the buzz as I might want to do a Deep Purple or a Black sabbath sometime. Not Motorhead, they work at 0 db and the ceiling shakes which takes a couple of days to get over. 8) ;D With a Motorhead concert ,you need to see an ear specialist afterwards , not Specsavers ;D My son in Law dragged me to a Motorhead concert and I have never been the same agaiN!!  :P ::)  " Mean looking mother in a black leather jacket""!! wooowowowooowoZING!! ;D  " Ace of Spades" Yeah!! :) Reginald Dixon Nah!! ;D

All the best
John
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: Tommy 73 on November 25, 2017, 08:18:53 PM
www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-there-any-point-di-ing-keyboards
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: Tommy 73 on November 25, 2017, 08:33:24 PM
https://youtu.be/EvXXrzy7Kyw
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: ugawoga on November 25, 2017, 08:53:33 PM
Hi
A mic input .
I am confused here
I asked whether you can go from keyboard outs to Di box in and to the Powered speaker as I am getting the buzz from the speaker.
I red that from amp to speaker is dodgy,. It is **** if you are not electrically minded and I have a horrid cold !! :-[
I am not talking about mix consoles etc.
I am not up to speed with the tech and need an explanation that is simple like a little drawing would help
I do not want to blow anything up or degradate the sound from the speakers
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: zionip on November 25, 2017, 08:54:36 PM
Hi Tommy,

Thanks for the links - they are very useful to me.

So, I guess after you watched the Youtube video on the positive review of the US$149 Radial ProD2 Passive 2 Channel Direct Box and the guy's painful experience with cheap DIs, you removed your link to the inexpensive Behringer Ultra-DI DI600P.  :)

That was the reason why I quoted the US$179 Countryman Type 85 DI, and we need 2 of these for Genos - too expensive solution.  The Radial ProD2 Passive 2 channel DI is much more affordable, with proven track record.

Paul
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: Tommy 73 on November 25, 2017, 08:57:46 PM
I think its safe to say...when you have spent very good money on a new outfit like you have john then using cheep gear inbetween will only act as the weakest link and after trying one or two of these Di's in a passive configeration over time and passive being best for a keyboard.. then there are differences in tonality and after trying a few there are changes in the dynamics... Radial is especially good and for a few quid more why risk choking the fidelity of the Genos with cheaper gear...all the pros use Radial 😊
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: zionip on November 25, 2017, 08:59:02 PM
Hi
A mic input .
I am confused here
I asked whether you can go from keyboard outs to Di box in and to the Powered speaker as I am getting the buzz from the speaker.
I red that from amp to speaker is dodgy,. It is **** if you are not electrically minded and I have a horrid cold !! :-[
I am not talking about mix consoles etc.
I am not up to speed with the tech and need an explanation that is simple like a little drawing would help
I do not want to blow anything up or degradate the sound from the speakers

Hi John,

On the video, I could see that the guy implied to connect the high Z unbalanced left and right outputs from Genos to the DI boxes, then the DI boxes connect to a in-house mixer using low Z XLR cables, then from the mixer, you connect either balanced 1/4 inch cables or XLR cables to your powered speakers.

Thanks,
Paul
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: Tommy 73 on November 25, 2017, 08:59:32 PM
Yes sorry Paul fat finger on my smart phone thats why i removed it lol...... I am watching David Gilmour live at pompe2 and not concentrating....😉
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: zionip on November 25, 2017, 09:03:07 PM
Hi John,

In your case:
Genos unbalanced outputs - unbalanced high Z 1/4-inch cables - DI boxes - balanced 1/4-inch cables, or XLR cables to your powered speakers.

Thanks,
Paul
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: Tommy 73 on November 25, 2017, 09:05:48 PM
Hi John,

In your case:
Genos unbalanced outputs - unbalanced high Z 1/4-inch cables - DI boxes - balanced 1/4-inch cables, or XLR cables to your powered speakers.

Thanks,
Paul
thats the way Paul 😊
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: ugawoga on November 25, 2017, 09:15:40 PM
Hi Paul
I have looked on Amazon and can see the cables you put down
What is this about never go from amp to di box to speaker as you will damage them.
But I will be going from keyboard to di box and then to powered speakers.
Sorry paul I am a novice at this and i did not know the difference between balanced and unbalanced.Why is their not a standard!! :)


All the best
John
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: Tommy 73 on November 25, 2017, 09:29:36 PM
I have made a bit of noise about Genos at this price point not having balanced outputs and Yamaha have only just catch up with every one else with the montage which now has balanced outputs....so unfortunately a Di will be needed and most probably in this case will hopfuly sort this problem out... 
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: ugawoga on November 25, 2017, 09:42:46 PM
Thanks tom for your help
One last thing
What is it that you must not connect amp to speakers with di box in between,which could damage your gear with electrical terms I do not understand.
Came from Native Instruments pages.

If all ok as you have written I shall go for the Ebbtech  one you recommended as I believe cheap is cheap and you get what you pay for.
I also read that cheap ones like paul wants could alter your sound. Is that right ??  You cannot cut corners with these things.
Otherwise big thanks for your help
The Dxr8s are quality,I can say that as the stereo field is engulfing. Great for ambient music, like the Ozric Tentacles
At low and  medium volume the sound sweeps accross the speakers side to side with panache.
Also good taste In music you have. May the Pink Piggies fly!! :D . and the aero gozzers fly down the wires!!
You need to get Jean Michel Jarre London Docklands out next!!  I still have the VHs without a player!!,but I copied it ages ago.

All the best
John
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: StuartR on November 25, 2017, 09:51:46 PM
I have made a bit of noise about Genos at this price point not having balanced outputs and Yamaha have only just catch up with every one else with the montage which now has balanced outputs....so unfortunately a Di will be needed and most probably in this case will hopfuly sort this problem out...

INTO the Genos is still a prosumer class of device and thus the unbalanced outputs which fit better in a home environment. On another front the Genos touchscreen is much better than the one on my Montage.
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: zionip on November 25, 2017, 10:07:21 PM
Hi John,

I like the simplicity of explanation on balanced vs unbalanced audio cables at this site:
https://www.epiphan.com/blog/audio-cables-balanced-vs-unbalanced/

You mentioned:
"What is it that you must not connect amp to speakers with di box in between,which could damage your gear with electrical terms I do not understand."

Please note the following different Genos, cable, DI, mixer, amp, speaker configurations:

1.  Conventional setup with a mixer, power amp, and passive speakers:
Genos unbalanced outputs - unbalanced high Z 1/4-inch cables - DI boxes - balanced 1/4-inch cables, or XLR cables - in-house mixer - balanced cables - power amp - speaker cables - passive speakers

2.  Conventional setup with a mixer, and a pair of active near field monitor speakers or powered PA speakers:
Genos unbalanced outputs - unbalanced high Z 1/4-inch cables - DI boxes - balanced 1/4-inch cables, or XLR cables - in-house mixer - balanced cables - powered speakers.

3.  Your situation, without a mixer, just Genos and a pair of powered PA speakers:
Genos unbalanced outputs - unbalanced high Z 1/4-inch cables - DI boxes - balanced 1/4-inch cables, or XLR cables - powered speakers.

From the above, you can see that there is no DI boxes in between a power amp and a pair of passive speakers.  As long as the DI boxes are used before the amp, not in between the amp and the speakers, you should be fine.  The only links between power amp and passive speakers should only be speaker cables.

Thanks,
Paul
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: Tommy 73 on November 25, 2017, 10:37:53 PM
Thanks tom for your help
One last thing
What is it that you must not connect amp to speakers with di box in between,which could damage your gear with electrical terms I do not understand.
Came from Native Instruments pages.

If all ok as you have written I shall go for the Ebbtech  one you recommended as I believe cheap is cheap and you get what you pay for.
I also read that cheap ones like paul wants could alter your sound. Is that right ??  You cannot cut corners with these things.
Otherwise big thanks for your help
The Dxr8s are quality,I can say that as the stereo field is engulfing. Great for ambient music, like the Ozric Tentacles
At low and  medium volume the sound sweeps accross the speakers side to side with panache.
Also good taste In music you have. May the Pink Piggies fly!! :D . and the aero gozzers fly down the wires!!
You need to get Jean Michel Jarre London Docklands out next!!  I still have the VHs without a player!!,but I copied it ages ago.

All the best
John
you are fine john paul has you coverd here...keep going it will be worth it when you sort this niggly problem out...Ozric Tentacles I remember them my mate use to play them in the van on the way to a gig with me stuffed in the back with the drum kit and the PA etc great stuff...and Gilmour well he still cuts it today bloody amazing ...and the  Jarre was only playing some on the keys this after noon...as i was born in the 70's I still loved the music from then as mother always had it on ...i use to drive my grandparents crazy playing there EX70 organ with my old keyboard midi in playing Mike oldfield over and over...when you study the recordings of that time there was some real magic taking place there.. ..even the hi-Rez mastering of today has something missing compared to the 70's.....humm tape saturation I guess lol...good luck John hope it works out I'll keep an eye if you still have problems on here 😊
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: Tommy 73 on November 25, 2017, 10:41:48 PM
INTO the Genos is still a prosumer class of device and thus the unbalanced outputs which fit better in a home environment. On another front the Genos touchscreen is much better than the one on my Montage.
not really should have balanced at this level and the montage screen.. yes we just missed the Genos nice big one and would of been nice if they angled it like Genos ...next time perhaps 😊
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: zionip on November 25, 2017, 10:55:38 PM
Hi John,

You mentioned:
"If all ok as you have written I shall go for the Ebbtech one you recommended as I believe cheap is cheap and you get what you pay for.  I also read that cheap ones like paul wants could alter your sound. Is that right ??  You cannot cut corners with these things."

You seemed to be mixing up the hum/buzz eliminator and the direct boxes.  The following discussion thread is a good start:
http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/forum/LivePerformanceCategory/acapella-33/372800-

I ordered the $38 "Rolls HE18 Buzz Off Dual Channel Hum & Buzz eliminator" to see if it removes hums as claimed, due to good Amazon user reviews.  I also ordered the Radial ProD2 Passive 2 Channel Direct Box, which I think is more useful to me because it is reported to be significantly better passive DI box than the Whirlwind Imp 2 that I used before.

I will let you know the testing results when I receive them.

Thanks,
Paul
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: Tommy 73 on November 25, 2017, 10:58:30 PM
RADIAL PRO D2....all day long ....Stereo direct box designed for keyboards
Smooth, warm sound rounds out digital edge
Able to handle huge transients without choking.😊

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: Tommy 73 on November 26, 2017, 05:34:50 AM
Because I'm making reference to the Radial Pro D2 one other thing to consider if you don't have much experience here then once you have your left & right jack cables coming from the Genos into the Radial Pro D2... then from there your left & right XLR outputs (Pro D2).. into the "left input no.1" XLR on DXR8 and the "right input no.1" XLR on the DXR8 you will probably find you will need to switch on Both L&R DXR's the small toggle switch from "Line" into the up position "Mic" when using the Mic line level from the Pro D2 ....at this point before you switch on the power...turn the Genos Master panel volume right down to "0" and gently bring the volume up on the Genos in this new configeration....as for the DXR's volume setting this will depend on how close you are to them but equally the same level settings on both DXR's ...😊

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: zionip on November 26, 2017, 06:12:38 AM
Hi Tommy,

It is very nice of you to even mention these small details to help John out.

The key is always turn on Genos first, before turning on the active speakers.  This way guarantees no annoying popping sound from the speakers when we power Genos on.

It is of course a best practice to minimize Genos master volume control when powering it up.

I actually tested the Genos with different master volume levels when powered on.  Yamaha did a good job in designing the power on process of Genos, I found that it never really introduced any loud pop sounds to the already on external speakers.  I could only hear some sort of white noise when the master volume knob of Genos was set past 12 o'clock position when powered on with the already on external speakers, but no loud pops occurred. 

Your mileage may vary though due to different designs of speakers, so please do not hold me responsible for any unfavorable testing results on your side.  :)

Thanks,
Paul
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: Tommy 73 on November 26, 2017, 06:34:55 AM
Thanks Paul all ways good to know ...i was setting up some Yamaha DSR's yesterday for a friends band Rig and after the afternoon sound checks when we finished one of the members from the hotel in bournmouth who was in a rush trying to lock the function room before we came back for the evening gig and when I said power down to my guitar buddy this chap from the hotel only jumped in pulled the bloody mains wall plug from the rig and after a sharp word from me panicked and promptly switched it back on again ....well can you imagen the bang from the PA ..not good ...i try to follow good habits I guess you never know with electronic ;) and good to here the information has been helpful   :)
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: zionip on November 26, 2017, 08:08:20 AM
Ha Ha, Tommy,

The guy you mentioned made 2 big mistakes in a row.  Maybe you should consider buying some uninterrupted power supply (UPS) for all of your equipment.

Cheers,
Paul
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: ugawoga on November 26, 2017, 12:07:26 PM
Hi Paul
I would like to know if your buzz /hum eliminator gets rid of that zzzzzbuzz or do they call it hum ??
By using unbalanced cables and balanced to the speakers.
The Ebbtech seems to be the jobby  as we only want to elliminate the annoyance, not to change the sound from the speakers In any way
I am sorry if I am a little naive with all of this as if you are not electricall minded , it can be a headache sorting  out electrical cockroaches in the wires.

All the best
John :)
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: Marsh on November 29, 2017, 11:24:26 AM
Hi john I have the same set up as yourself, like you I was experiencing the same problems I have installed a behringer micro hd 400 hum destroyer on short leads from keyboard then longer jack to jack leads to drx8 first speaker then joined the other drx via a xlr male to xlr femail cable from the link out on speaker with the leads from keyboard to mic/line on second speaker then set DSp switches to off and stereo to on . The sound from these speakers is fantastic with a little noise from the cooling fans but no buzz/ hiss my room size is 27x12 hope this helps you.    Marshall
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: soryt on November 29, 2017, 12:04:53 PM
simple , turn up volume on the Genos to 75/80 %  and lower your Pa output  8)

Soryt  :)
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: ugawoga on November 30, 2017, 04:06:25 PM
I reckon Soryt Is on the button!!
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: ugawoga on November 30, 2017, 04:25:24 PM
Hi Marshall
I was beginning to think I was the only one with this set up. At first I thought these were total overkill and now I have changed my mind.
Apart from the teething problems now is the time to look at the sound seriously. Looks daunting at the moment.
These speakers give so much detail , but I am having beginners problems in getting the eq right on the button.
It is a case, I know of trial and error, but these speakers can be heavy on your ears If the bass is too much and not balanced.
The thing I do notice with the Genos as with the Tyros the kick drums are too loud and sometimes monopolise the drum channel.
So I will go to the edit Channell and lower them for certain styles and put them In the user section.
My Vst's sound fantastic as well.
I was was playing around with the acoustic concert guitar and being new to this Genos with the uprated sounds It is hard to get the touch right and  acoustic Instruments  can get a little droney or bassy hiding the sound of the strings. It is all down to eq and things like that. It will take me some time as It Is a new ball game with better speakers than the Genos ones.
These DXR's are In the premier league!! for a Genios ;D 8)
Keep In touch Marshall as we can swap ideas.


All the Best
John
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: zionip on December 02, 2017, 07:18:46 PM
Hi Paul
I would like to know if your buzz /hum eliminator gets rid of that zzzzzbuzz or do they call it hum ??
By using unbalanced cables and balanced to the speakers.
The Ebbtech seems to be the jobby  as we only want to elliminate the annoyance, not to change the sound from the speakers In any way
I am sorry if I am a little naive with all of this as if you are not electricall minded , it can be a headache sorting  out electrical cockroaches in the wires.

All the best
John :)

Hi John,

I used the following 2 devices in testing hum / buzz elimination between Genos and powered speakers (I used a Zoom H4N recorder instead):

Rolls HE18 Buzz Off hum eliminator, $38 from Amazon (don't buy it, it was horrible in my test):
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004E4LU0W/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Radial ProD2 stereo direct box, $150 from Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000B85FV0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Input side of these devices:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/sTqcqL2aKRdrNtZP2

Output side of these devices:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/40OUNkIySlTNrdb93

I used the following cables for the testing:
2 x Fender California Series Instrument cable (unbalanced 1/4 inch)
2 x Livewire Advantage balanced cable (balanced 1/4 inch)
2 x Whirlwind MK4 Series XLR microphone cable (balanced XLR)
https://photos.app.goo.gl/BZMMOSGG1uXLY7w03

I used a Zoom H4N recorder instead of a pair of powered speakers so I can load up the recorded MP3 files on Audacity to show the differences.

The master volume of Genos stayed at 12 o'clock position for all tests.  The recording level on the Zoom H4N recorder remained the same during the tests.  I used the Genos demo song "Orchestral" as testing source.

The main left output of Genos connects to a green Fender guitar cable, and the main right output connects to a red Fender guitar cable:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/aofPxLGCMfHkbYwy1

Scene 1:
Genos -> unbalanced 1/4 inch cables (Fender guitar cables) -> Zoom H4N / powered speakers
https://photos.app.goo.gl/066SaeP9ycQrJKXg1
The signal was very hot, loud, and clear, with some high frequency hissing noticeable through the monitoring headphones on the Zoom H4N.  However, the high pitched hissing is not noticed on actual recording.
The recorded MP3 file: 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13Vq-JtGqw3RFOFkr0bQ-RbGUvp_m27pV/view?usp=sharing

Scene 2:
Genos -> unbalanced 1/4 inch cables -> Rolls Buzz eliminator -> balanced 1/4 inch cables -> Zoom H4N / powered speakers
https://photos.app.goo.gl/QVCaGt35vTE3B0D43
The cheap Rolls Buzz elminator actually introduced loud buzzes, same results with different sets of balanced cables - it is useless, and I will return it.  I did not order the Ebtech hum eliminator, which has balanced XLR outputs.

Scene 3:
Genos -> unbalanced 1/4 inch cables -> Radial ProD2 stereo direct box -> balanced XLR microphone cables -> Zoom H4N / powered speakers
https://photos.app.goo.gl/xpyyRFJ325k1tGqs2
The signal was very quiet, a tiny bit of high pitched hissing still noticeable through the monitoring headphones on the
Zoom H4N, but a lot quieter than scene 1.
The recorded MP3 file: 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-pzyAQNDiIcZBFBNm6vuOtSQmzzyGmO2/view?usp=sharing

Visual comparison of audio signals between Scene 3 and Scene 1:
Scene 3 on the left (with Radial ProD2 stereo direct box) and Scene1 on the right (Genos with good unbalanced cables only)
https://photos.app.goo.gl/2TWSpwhlXbhErFpK2

I could not hear any high pitched hissing on the two MP3 files.  However, during the recording sessions, through a pair of monitoring headphones I could hear the signals much cleaner through the Radial ProD2 stereo direct box.

I highly recommend the Radial ProD2 stereo direct box as a solution to minimize your speaker hums situation.  If you are satisfied with reduced volumes on your powered speakers, you can just stick to your current setup.  BTW, the audio quality US$25 Fender unbalanced 1/4 inch California Series Instrument cable is not bad at all.  I used 2 of these cables to record stereo tracks directly from Genos with good results.

I am not going to test Ebtech hum eliminator since I prefer the much more versatile Radial ProD2 stereo direct box (with additional individual thru, -15dB pad, and ground lift).

Thanks,
Paul
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: Tommy 73 on December 03, 2017, 07:04:29 AM
Hi John,

I used the following 2 devices in testing hum / buzz elimination between Genos and powered speakers (I used a Zoom H4N recorder instead):

Rolls HE18 Buzz Off hum eliminator, $38 from Amazon (don't buy it, it was horrible in my test):
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004E4LU0W/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Radial ProD2 stero direct box, $150 from Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000B85FV0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Input side of these devices:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/sTqcqL2aKRdrNtZP2

Output side of these devices:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/40OUNkIySlTNrdb93

I used the following cables for the testing:
2 x Fender California Series Instrument cable (unbalanced 1/4 inch)
2 x Livewire Advantage balanced cable (balanced 1/4 inch)
2 x Whirlwind MK4 Series XLR microphone cable (balanced XLR)
https://photos.app.goo.gl/BZMMOSGG1uXLY7w03

I used a Zoom H4N recorder instead of a pair of powered speakers so I can load up the recorded MP3 files on Audacity to show the differences.

The master volume of Genos stayed at 12 o'clock position for all tests.  The recording level on the Zoom H4N recorder remained the same during the tests.  I used the Genos demo song "Orchestral" as testing source.

The main left output of Genos connects to a green Fender guitar cable, and the main right output connects to a red Fender guitar cable:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/aofPxLGCMfHkbYwy1

Scene 1:
Genos -> unbalanced 1/4 inch cables (Fender guitar cables) -> Zoom H4N / powered speakers
https://photos.app.goo.gl/066SaeP9ycQrJKXg1
The signal was very hot, loud, and clear, with some high frequency hissing noticeable through the monitoring headphones on the Zoom H4N.  However, the high pitched hissing is not noticed on
actual recording.
The recorded MP3 file: 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13Vq-JtGqw3RFOFkr0bQ-RbGUvp_m27pV/view?usp=sharing

Scene 2:
Genos -> unbalanced 1/4 inch cables -> Rolls Buzz eliminator -> balanced 1/4 inch cables -> Zoom H4N / powered speakers
https://photos.app.goo.gl/QVCaGt35vTE3B0D43
The cheap Rolls Buzz elminator actually introduced loud buzzes, same results with different sets of balanced cables - it is useless, and I will return it.  I did not order the Ebtech hum eliminator, which
has balanced XLR outputs.

Scene 3:
Genos -> unbalanced 1/4 inch cables -> Radial ProD2 stereo direct box -> balanced XLR microphone cables -> Zoom H4N / powered speakers
https://photos.app.goo.gl/xpyyRFJ325k1tGqs2
The signal was very quiet, a tiny bit of high pitched hissing still noticeable through the monitoring headphones on the
Zoom H4N, but a lot quieter than scene 1.
The recorded MP3 file: 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-pzyAQNDiIcZBFBNm6vuOtSQmzzyGmO2/view?usp=sharing

Visual comparison of audio signals between Scene 3 and Scene 1:
Scene 3 on the left (with Radial ProD2 stereo direct box) and Scene1 on the right (Genos with good unbalanced cables only)
https://photos.app.goo.gl/2TWSpwhlXbhErFpK2

I could not hear any high pitched hissing on the two MP3 files.  However, during the recording sessions, through a pair of monitoring headphones I could hear the signals much cleaner through the Radial ProD2 stereo direct box.

I highly recommend the Radial ProD2 stereo direct box as a solution to minimize your speaker hums situation.  If you are satisfied with reduced volumes on your powered speakers, you can just stick to your current setup.  BTW, the audio quality US$25 Fender unbalanced 1/4 inch California Series Instrument cable is not bad at all.  I used 2 of these cables to record stereo tracks directly from Genos with good results.

I am not going to test Ebtech hum eliminator since I prefer the much more versatile Radial ProD2 stereo direct box (with additional individual thru, -15dB pad, and ground lift).

Thanks,
Paul
Thanks Paul for confirming my recommendation the Radial Pro D2 is the one to complement the investment....A Note to "YAMAHA" ...you where noticeably late to the scene with balanced outputs on your high end synthesizers perhaps you will remember to correct this with Genos2 as this will so deserves to have "balanced outputs" next time ...all the best  :)
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: ugawoga on September 03, 2018, 12:32:07 AM
Hi to all
In the end  a cheap Behringer hum eliminator for £20 solved the buzz or hum .
I can recommend one as It has done Its job ever since this thread started.
If interested In one Amazon has them.

Big thanks to everyone who tried to help me, Much appreciated :)

All the best
John
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: EB5AGV on September 04, 2018, 04:19:51 PM
Hi to all
In the end  a cheap Behringer hum eliminator for £20 solved the buzz or hum .
I can recommend one as It has done Its job ever since this thread started.
If interested In one Amazon has them.

Big thanks to everyone who tried to help me, Much appreciated :)

All the best
John

Could you share the exact model with us?  ;)

Jose
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: ugawoga on September 04, 2018, 08:43:21 PM
Hi Hose
23 euros with Amazon Spain De
Non Balanced cable In as Genos etc  unbalanced outs and balanced cable out and wherever the rest take you. Kills the hum for me.

Here it is and It does the job

All the best
john

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: valimaties on September 05, 2018, 02:31:02 PM
Hi Uli.
I paste a review from a client from sweetwater:

Quote
This unit is made of very light gauge metal and the connectors are of very low quality. If you plug/unplug cables into this frequently you will eventually end up with intermittent connections. It does eliminate hum at times but other times it actually boosts it (?) I have Behringer processing gear that has served me very well for many years through many gigs without issues but this is absolutely NOT a good buy. Save up and buy the Ebtech model.

by Frobie from Findlay, OH   on May 11, 2015
Music background: Active, gigging, Bassist- Live Sound Engineer


Is it true?!  :(

I really want to buy a hum destroyer, too, but I searched for reviews on each piece of electronics I want to buy, so ...
Also, he said about Ebtech model, but Paul said it is not a good choice. And sincerely, 180 euros is too much for me, for Radial Pro D2... :(

Thanks,
Vali

Title: Re: Genos setup
Post by: ugawoga on September 05, 2018, 10:28:25 PM
Hi Val

That £20 Behringer HD stop the buzz on my DXR speakers.
It is a sturdy well built box and no electric plugs to bother about . Just plug your Genos  Outs to In on Behringer HD and out to powered speakers.
Unbalanced out lead from the Genos and the Behringer HD balances the signal so you can either use XLR to TRS jack or Stereo TRS jack to jack balanced.
I am over the moon with It. The price is a drop In the Ocean

I do not keep unplugging and plugging It In as It Is In my room permanently plugged In. For me It destroys that horrible hum /buzz
I suppose If you gig you may need something more expensive. I am not an expert In electrics and would probably blow up the Electric Grid!! ;D :o :P

All the best
John :)