PSR Tutorial Forum
Genos (12 Boards) => Genos - General => Topic started by: Joe H on September 25, 2017, 04:53:37 AM
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EDIT: I asked Roger to move this topic to the Genos Board since we now know Genos has an arpeggiator. Thank you Roger
I thought I'd move this topic over to Other Features rather than the Genos board because the S770 and S970 arrangers already offer an arpeggiator and real-time control. Though these functions are far more limited in their implementation than they COULD have been. It's a beginning and a sign that Yamaha is listening to its customers.
I fully expect that Genos has at least one arpeggiator, but could very well have inherited the dynamic 4-arpeggio technology from the Motif line, which has evolved and advanced over the years.
Many arranger players have little or no experience using arpeggiators so it might be worthwhile opening this discussion with some basic information on what arpeggiators are... and how they can be used.
I'm sure that some people have the impression that arpeggiators are for Electronic Dance Music (EDM) only. But this is not the case at all. In fact our arranger styles and Multi Pads are recorded arpeggios. With the Motif line of workstations, Yamaha incorporated 4 LIVE arppegios which offer far greater dynamics and variation in a performance than stagnant pre-recorded arps can... which are used to create our styles and Multi Pads.
Here is a brief overview of Yamaha's evolving development of the arpeggio from it's early "broken chord" form to a very sophisticated Pattern Generator form that no longer resembles the original definition of arpeggio. The following is a summary from the Motif Rack XS Owner's Manual.
I've also attached a PDF version of this summary for download.
Arp Categories
Acoustic Piano & Keyboard
Organ
Guitar / Plucked
Guitar for “Mega Voice”
Bass
Bass for “Mega Voice”
Strings
Brass
Reed / Pipe
Lead Synth Lead
Synth Pad / Musical Effect
Chromatic Percussion
Drum / Percussion
Synth Sequence
Chord Sequence
Hybrid Sequence
Controller
Mega Voices and Mega Voice Arpeggios
Normal Voices use velocity switching to make the sound quality
and/or level of a Voice change according to how strongly or softly
you play the keyboard. This makes these Voices respond
naturally.
However Mega Voices have a very complex structure
with many different layers, and are not suitable for playing
manually. Mega Voices were developed specifically to be played
by Mega Voice arpeggios to produce incredibly realistic results.
You should always use Mega Voices with Mega Voice Arpeggios
(included in “GtMG” and “BaMG” category).
Sub Categories
Rock Z.Pad Zone Velocity for Pad*
R&B Filter
Electronic Expression
Jazz Pan
World Modulation
General Pitch Bend
Combination Assign 1/2
Zone Velocity*
Arpeggio types belonging to the Sub Categories marked with an asterisk
(*) contain some velocity ranges, to each of which a different phrase is
assigned. When a type of these categories is selected, it is a good idea to
set the Velocity Limit of each Element to the same range as below.
Velocity ranges of each Arpeggio type
2Z_*****: 1 – 90, 91 – 127
4Z_*****: 1 – 70, 71 – 90, 91 – 110, 111 – 127
8Z_*****: 1 – 16, 17 – 32, 33 – 48, 49 – 64, 65 – 80, 81 – 96, 97 – 108, 109 –
127
PadL_*****: 1 – 1, 2 – 2, 3 – 127
PadH_*****: 1 – 112, 113 – 120, 121 – 127
Arpeggio type ES
These Arpeggios created for use of Normal Voices will be
played back matching the played notes
Arpeggio type XS
These Arpeggios created for Normal Voices use a newly
developed chord recognition technology to determine what
notes should be played back by the Arpeggio.
Arpeggio type with a normal name (example: UpOct1)
In addition to the above types, there are three other playback
types:
1. Arpeggios created for use of Normal Voices and
played back using only the played notes and their octave notes
2. Arpeggios created for use of Drum Voices
3. Arpeggios containing mainly non-note events.
It is my hope this information will both inform and stimulate some useful discussion on the value of adding arpeggiators and real-time control features to all future mid-range and top-of-the-line arranger keyboards.
Joe H
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Thank you Joe for bringing up this interesting thread.😄
I am one of these people who are never using aps.
It is time for me to change that attitude and from now I am going to start reading your attached pdf and find out if aps can make my songs richer.
Jeff
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Thanks Joe for starting this very interesting thread,although I do not have much experience with arps,I have dabbled with them in a simple way when I have connected my Casio WP- X1 and Waldorf Streichfett to my T5.Although the midi took a bit of sorting I did manage to make some some interesting pieces, although in limited sort of way.
I will keep following this thread with interest..Hopefully the Genos will have more scope for the use of arps which will no doubt add lots more interest to the music we can produce
Alan
😀😀😀
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Thank you Joe,
As the original poster of this topic in the Genos thread, let me illustrate my thoughts on this matter by copying most of my previous post.
I asked Tommy 73 the following questions, but of course I would highly appreciate anyone to share his/hers experiences:
I find the concept of the arpeggiator instead of a style engine very interesting. For what I have heard so far, a lot of the arpeggios on the Montage are very inspiring! Since you have both the Montage and the PA4X you must have a clear picture of what it means for an arranger player to switch over to a performance synth like the Montage. My thoughts are that it would be refreshing to 'break free' of the somewhat rigid nature of predefined styles, to a more open structure of building an accompaniment with arpeggios. My understanding is that you can build up an accompaniment with 8 arpeggios which you can freely choose out of thousands, including breaks and endings.
Of course I realise that nothing is predefined and you would have to build up your accompaniments yourself, but I expect that you can save your work and reuse and change those settings for other performances. Is this how you use your Montage as well, or am I thinking too much from an arranger players perspective? By the way I am not into EDM at all and maybe there is a lot of emphasis on this genre in Montage. Is there enough orchestral and mainstream-like content as well?
Regards,
Tom
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I fully expect that Genos has at least one arpeggiator, but could very well have inherited the dynamic 4-arpeggio technology from the Motif line, which has evolved and advanced over the years.
Thanks you Joe, it is very interesting to see how arpeggios have evolved over the years to what they are now. Does the Motif XF have a 4 track arpeggiator? If so, then Montage marks another major leap in this technology since it has an 8 track arpeggiator according to the specs. this would mean that at least the amount of available tracks is equal to the styles on arranger keyboards. I am not sure if all 8 tracks can compliment each other to make a coherent accompaniment though :).
Tom
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Thank you Joe, great topic...
although i would have placed it in the Genos section
Bachus,
As I noted, because the S770 and S970 have an arpeggiator... and also considering Tom NL's questions and comments, I wanted this to be a topic of arpeggiators in general rather than Genos specific because hopefully this thread will benefit everyone who have a keyboard with arps.
Joe H
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Tom NL,
I think once you get a better understanding of arpeggiators you will see it's not either / or. The arpeggiator is a TOOL. As noted in Yamaha's description there are many types or categories of arps for different types of instruments and musical genre.
And as I noted, a live arpeggiator offers real-time variation of playback based on the notes being played with the right hand. In the case of the Motif, Yamaha notes that Mega Voices are used to create dynamic variations in not only nuances of the instrument, but some of the Motif Mega Arps / Voices have different instrument samples that respond to the different Velocity values programmed into the arp. This is how the multi channel Motif arps can be more expressive.
For arps to work on our arrangers, they must be programmed in CMaj7 scale. So I think the Motif borrowed the chord recognition technology from the arranger keyboard. And we will know soon if the Genos has an arpeggiator. I can't imagine it NOT having at least ONE. If the Motif arps have been ported over then we will have a very different kind of arranger for those thinking of buying a Genos.
There is a lot to say, but I am hoping for a group discussion and contributions from others who have used arpeggiators.
Joe H
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I am very interested in hearing what Tommy 73 has to say about arranging on his Montage and the use of arpeggiators. My understanding is it is similar to the Motif Performances. I think creating styles and arranging on the Genos will be similar to the method I have developed for the S970. More on that... but hopefully Tommy 73 will chime in first.
And it's important to see this thread as being about arps in general... not the Montage, Motif, S970 or Genos. since Arps are now a part of arranger architecture, we can learn from each other from our shared experiences so those new to arps will appreciate their importance and value.
Joe H
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Very interesting thread!
I've never used arps, and I thought they were for the right hand only, like you can hear in the beginning of the first teaser "Star Dust". But I remember that I've heard a very realistic rhythm guitar pattern from an arp, many years ago. I think it was Bert Smorenburg on a demo of Motif?
Does someone know a YouTube video that showcases and explains these new arps?
Thanks in advance,
Maarten
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Hi Maartenb,
Thanks for joining in. We will have a lot of competition with all the Genos threads but now that we know the Genos has an arpeggiator this topic will be relevant to the Genos.
Here are a couple of Youtube videos on arps.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1v8s1pyZ-2Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1v8s1pyZ-2Q)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-R2rSrQDEw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-R2rSrQDEw)
There is a lot to say about arpeggiators and how they can be used for both live performance as well as a tool to create new style loops and Multi Pads.
Joe H
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Here's one more. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73Wrn5w41qo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73Wrn5w41qo)
The nice thing about the Motif is the Arp Editor where you can create your own. The Motif will also import new User Arps.
The Motif Rack XS does not support User Arps and there is no editor :(
It would be nice if the Genos supports User Arps or has an editor. We will know soon. These videos show the more advanced function on the Motif but should still help give people a better grasp of how arpeggios are constructed.
NOTE: While the S970 arpeggiator does not have any drum arps, it is possible to create new drum loops by playing the right notes on the keybed and record them to the on-board sequencer. More on that later.
Joe H
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... But I remember that I've heard a very realistic rhythm guitar pattern from an arp, many years ago. I think it was Ber Smorenburg on a demo of Motif?
Maarten
The Motif has a few... I'll try to record a some arp types from the S970 including a guitar arp, piano arp, keyboard arp and strings arp. R1 can play the arp while R2 can play normal. The overdub of an arpeggio with another Voice can provide interesting effects. Chord arps are basically rhythmic in nature and sequence arps are as well.
Joe H
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Hi Joe,
Interesting thread.
This is a recording I made on the Motif XS some time ago, the brass section is an Arp and the drum is also on the whole an Arp, the rest of the parts I played in individually myself. Just to give anyone interested a flavour of Arps..... and it's not EDM, it's Watermelon Man by Herbie Hancock!!
https://soundcloud.com/imfarming4-johnk/watermelon-man5 (https://soundcloud.com/imfarming4-johnk/watermelon-man5)
John
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Hi John,
Nice to hear from you... it's been awhile. That is the perfect kind of example I'm looking for. Now that Yamaha includes an arpeggiator in it's latest arrangers, it's my intent to shed some light on the use of arps.
So the brass arp is an excellent example of non EDM. And of coarse Yamaha emphasizes the value of arps for creating drum loops.
PS: I'm waiting on an audio cable to patch my Motif Rack XS into my S970 so I can record the MRXS on the S970 WAV recorder. We still don't know what capabilities are in the Genos, but we know there is at least one live arpeggiator. Wouldn't it be nice if that arp could be used with R1, R2, R3, Left or in a style Part?
Cheers,
Joe H
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Genos has an arpeggiator!
So... now the topic of arpeggiators is relevant to the Genos. :)
Many things to cover on this topic. Once Yamaha releases the Owners' Manual, Reference Manual and Data List Book we will know a lot more about how Yamaha designed the new keyboard and what kind of implementation has been programmed for the arpeggiator.
Won't be long now. Please keep in mind that this thread is still about arpeggiators in general and not exclusive to the Genos.
;)
Joe H
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Thanks for sharing Joe,
I have not used arps much, because I didn't understand their many uses. The information you provided has given me a whole new view of an arp. Thanks!
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Mjm,
We are just getting started. There is a lot to cover and I welcome anyone who wishes to share their experience with playing arpeggiators. At first I didn't think they were that useful. But as I learned (and continue to learn) how to PLAY them, I now see them as a useful tool in making music.
To PLAY an arpeggiator means to develop fingering patterns for the arpeggiator to follow rather than just holding a number of keys down. Each arpeggio has a pattern of its own that will repeat over and over if you just play a single note or several notes. But by playing different notes with the arpeggiator running it is possible to create many variations based on the rhythm of the arp itself.
An arpeggio is a "broken chord"... that is the notes are played in succession rather than simultaneously. In the 1980s arpeggiators on analog synthesizers and MIDI keyboards were simple up and down patterns like you might hear played on a orchestral harp. But on a synthesizer you could create varying patterns for a synth Bass by what notes you played on the keyboard.
Today's arpeggiators are comprised of not only a sequence of notes, but also rhythmic note patterns, MIDI controller messages like cc11 (Expression) and cc74 (Filter Cutoff), cc10 (Panpot) and sometimes even Pitch Bend messages. Yamaha has advanced arpeggios to an even greater extent with what they call Mega Arpeggios that really get complicated using special Mega Voices to create realistic guitar strums, or a combination of different instrument sounds in a single Voice to creat an interesting musical phrase. Then there are arpeggios created strictly for playing drum and percussion patterns.
The S970 does not have any Mega arps or drum arps. It will be interesting to see what Yamaha has programmed into the Genos. It may be similar to the S970 or more like the Motif arps... or something in between.
I think that maybe learning to play arpeggiators is a little like learning to play music itself. Start simple and just keep practicing.
:)
Joe H
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Hi Joe,
Yes, it's ben a while, but I read a lot of the posts and intersting topics here, just busy with work.
I digress, here is an example of the Motif XS guitar strumming patterns that Joe is mentioning, again not EDM but James Taylor's Fire & Rain, a project I haven't finished but listen to all the variations within the guitar patterns. Hopefully the Genos may utilise these Arpeggiaters to the full. Listen with headphones or good speakers for best effect.
https://app.box.com/s/4fzf0yaq1o1hmsbrisgs (https://app.box.com/s/4fzf0yaq1o1hmsbrisgs)
John
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Hi Joe,
Thanks for the info. Wow, I have a lot to learn, but am looking forward to experimenting with some of the ideas you mentioned.
Best regards,
Mark
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If the arpeggiatior provides us very good guitar strums patterns, it will be fantastic.
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You could also make your own arpeggios and stick them on a pad. :)
Just means a little extra work but good for practice.
Also if daw compatible, you can use the Genos with Vst Instruments ,then skies the limit. ;D
I did this with tyros 5 The first effect done with vst,the rest Tyros 5 .Took a little practice getting the repeat arpeggio right. Makes your pinkies ache.
https://soundcloud.com/silver-machine/eye-in-the-sky-and-really-sirius (https://soundcloud.com/silver-machine/eye-in-the-sky-and-really-sirius)
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John K,
Thanks a gain for the contribution and demo of a guitar arp. Yes I hope the Genos has some good guitar arps. the arps in the S970 are particularly good for piano, strings, and synth leads and counter leads.
I'll try to record some of these in the next few days. Watching out for the next Genos video... so this thread may experience a blackout for a couple of days. ;D
Joe H
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John S,
What a great piece of music! Seven + minutes is a long time to hold one's attention... but you pulled it off very well.
8)
Joe H
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You could also make your own arpeggios and stick them on a pad. :)
Just means a little extra work but good for practice.
Also if daw compatible, you can use the Genos with Vst Instruments ,then skies the limit. ;D
I did this with tyros 5 The first effect done with vst,the rest Tyros 5 .Took a little practice getting the repeat arpeggio right. Makes your pinkies ache.
https://soundcloud.com/silver-machine/eye-in-the-sky-and-really-sirius (https://soundcloud.com/silver-machine/eye-in-the-sky-and-really-sirius)
Absolutely. I play the Motif Rack XS arps, the Proteus arps and Catanya v2 VST (a Cubse plug-in) on my S970. I too have created arps by playing them by hand and recording them to the S970 sequencer. Once a MIDI file they can be converted to style Parts or Multi Pads.
But the live arpeggiator is different in that we can achieve real-time variations as we play the arp.
NOTE: I realize there is no particular format for this thread but at some point the collective information can be summarized and organized into a useful document (hopefully).
;)
Joe H
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If the arpeggiatior provides us very good guitar strums patterns, it will be fantastic.
There are MIDI guitar loops out there (Twiddly Bits) that were recorded using a MIDI guitar that sound very realistic. If you want guitar parts for styles or Multi Pads that is a good option. I personally haven't experimented with guitar arps much since I have been focusing on EDM for the last couple of years.
;D
Joe H
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Hi Joe
Thanks for your comments, much appreciated. Once you get the tune in your head it is not too bad. You just have to get those registrations right and practice like billy'o.
I must admit that It will be handy to have the arpeggiator, but rich piano's,orchestra's,brass and even better saxes is what I dream of from the new Genos. Also looking forward to the Synth section.
If the organs are great The santana stuff will sound good.The editing side I hope is good as well.
As you guessed Joe I am a 60s and 70s man. :)
All the best
John
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As you guessed Joe I am a 60s and 70s man. :)
All the best
John
I grew up in the 50s and 60s. The 70s in particular produced a LOT of good music.
:)
Joe H
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In the end, i think that in every decades huge amounts of great music are produced..
Dont forget the 80’s and the 90’s ... thats when i was dating and dancing and playing live music...
Making a lot of that music special to me..
I agree... I like almost everything except heavy metal.
;)
Joe H
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In my opinion
View from a Victor Meldrew!! :o "I don't believe it"!! :-\
Before and 20s,30s 40,s 50s,60s,70s 80s Is where music was at It's best as music was more Interesting and fun and descriptive. :)
The downfall for me was Punk onwards, All music from then got dumbed down and young people with mobile phones and playstations wired up to everything except real life does not make for future of Intelligent music. :P. Kids today think they are musicians firing off samples from a flashing Light Box with loads of coloured buttons kind of like.
You turn on the Tv and everything now is manic with reality shows and even Strictly Come Dancing has been dumbed down. >:(
I rarely watch tv as the music soap and reality shows drives me nuts.
Thank God for my man cave 8) ;D
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I like almost everything except heavy metal.
Well, I'm still into progressive rock/metal after all these years ;) But pardon me folks, I don't like Schlager :P
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Hi Dromeus
I had a father Into german OOOOmPah music,"Drove me nuts"
Now Shclager music is Eurovision song contest nightmare music
The only thing good about It all Is the BEER!!! :o ;D
You did not mention the dreaded Pat Methany DOOO DOOOS! Ug!!
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Hey guys,
This thread is about arpeggiators... not what kind of music you like. So let's stay on topic please.
Regards,
Joe H
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It Is no different to all the nonsense that has been talked about.
It brightens the day.
Still nobody knows what is going on ,just arping on about It ;D
It's Friday Night!!! "get the wine out and the Fillet steak" ;)
see you Monday!!! :o ;D
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Where it comes to arps, i would be highly surprised if it wasnt exactly the same as the arps on the s970.... all signs seem to comfirm that...
It does look that way doesn't it?. But for the TOTL arranger, there should be a major upgrade in the number of arps and Arp Types. Since the Genos has some OS upgrades due to the touch screen lets wait for the manuals to see if pressing the Harmony/Arpeggio buttons leads to a more substantial arp menu than the S970.
The Tyros has always offered more of everything than the top PSR S series. I don't want to jump to conclusions.
Joe H
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Hello Joe, I want to share here this Song that is called !! The Oh Of Pleasure !! by Ray Lynch, in which you can appreciate an excellent handling of the arpeggiator, this theme is from the 90s, I hope this helps a little, if I am wrong please let me know greetings Hans
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5syZh-b5QsA
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Hi sorry for the late entry due to many constraints on my time at the moment I am only dropping in and out of the Genos threads... but thought I would put this link up as I was asked previously about Arranger style vs Arpeggiator based styles on montage this link is from the Yamaha Synth forum ...thought it might be interesting where this question came up in the Genos threads https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/figured-out-a-live-use-for-parts-9-16 P.s. this forum is a good source of information for the montage ...when I own my time again I will try to drop back in all the best. :)
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Arpeggios can be amazing. One of the reasons I love to use Omnisphere (from Spectrasonics) is for it's truly impressive arps. They add such a lot of texture and interest to almost any sound, especially if (like me) you favour a more dreamy and ambient sound. I really like what Montage does with arpeggios and I'm hoping we get some of that goodness on the Genos.
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Hans,
Interesting piece of music. Another good example of the use of arpeggiators. I think it is possible to create music like than on the S970 building one track at a time on the MIDI sequencer.
Joe H
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Hi sorry for the late entry due to many constraints on my time at the moment I am only dropping in and out of the Genos threads... but thought I would put this link up as I was asked previously about Arranger style vs Arpeggiator based styles on montage this link is from the Yamaha Synth forum ...thought it might be interesting where this question came up in the Genos threads https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/figured-out-a-live-use-for-parts-9-16 P.s. this forum is a good source of information for the montage ...when I own my time again I will try to drop back in all the best. :)
Hi Tommy 73,
I think we can do very well with our arrangers. Eight part styles plus 4 Multi Pads, plus R1, R2 layer with an arp on one or both right Voices, plus a Left Voice Pad or string Voice.
What we don't know yet is if the Genos has more than one arp. It appears at this point to be only one. And will that arp be available for only R1 and R2... or can it be played in a style Part or Multi Pad ???
I've been experimenting with creating style Parts and Multi Pads with the S970 arpeggiator. Since we can create variations of the arp playback depending on the notes we play on the keybed, it is possible to create new and unique custom style parts and Multi Pads. While this may not be quite as good as 4 or 8 live arpeggiators, it's a new tool for the arranger... which is a good thing.
And with the help of Live Control and my Peavey hardware MIDI controller, I can create real-time filter and/or Pan sweeps, as well as variations in the Amplitude Attack and Release Envelopes... all these can be recorded simultaneously as a MIDI song file and converted to style parts or Multi Pads. 8)
:)
Joe H
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Joe... been playing a lot with Karma.. ( the arps on the Kronos)
And i love adding them to the left hand, thats also comtrolling the chords for the areanger.. Setting chord detection to full chord, allows you a lot of freedom with your left hand for playing with the arpegiator..
Well I can't do that with the S970 alone, but S970 - Motif Rack XS (MRXS) integration is very good so I'm looking at all the ways I can play the MRXS as if it is part of the S970.
Examples are:
1. over-lay the 4 part MRXS Multi (4 live arpeggiators) with styles and Multi Pads.
2. Use MRXS arps to play S970 Multi Pads channels using S970 Voices
3. Create a MIDI configuration on the S970 to have MRXS arps play with the R1
or
4. play along with left hand chords.
I will be making many new style parts and Multi Pads using the MRXS arps. I also have a E-MU Proteus 1000 with the v2.2 OS upgrade wich has 16 live arps. And I can never get by without my Peavey PC1600x hardware MIDI controller with its 16 long throw faders and 16 buttons... all of which are fully programmable to send ANY MIDI message. The PC1600x also has a CV foot pedal input that can be assigned as Master Fader to controll any or all 16 faders at once (Super Foot Pedal.. kind of like the Montage Super Knob)
It would be nice to have all this capability in a single instrument... but that would mean Montage plus Genos combined.
;D
Joe H
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The Genos has 216 different Arps on board.
The arpeggiator only works with the R1 voice
And there is no way to import user Arps.
Which makes the whole feature quite useless to me.
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The Genos has 216 different Arps on board.
And there is no way to import user Arps.
This is, what I expect. :(
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I wonder If It has a randomizer and programable like In FM8 vst.
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I wonder If It has a randomizer and programable like In FM8 vst.
The manuals are not available yet... so we will have to wait and see.
Joe H
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The Genos has 216 different Arps on board.
The arpeggiator only works with the R1 voice
And there is no way to import user Arps.
Which makes the whole feature quite useless to me.
216 arps is probably a case of not wanting to undercut the Montage.
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So who wins from that staement
Certainly not the customers..
What do Montage owners care if the more expensive Genos has several 1000’s of their arps?
Maybe it makes some montage owners buy the more expensive Genos..
I dont think many Genos buyers would ever buy a montage
I'm just saying that if Genos has all of the Montage features plus styles, why buy Montage? But you are right, the customer loses with the 216 arps if that is an important feature. Is that a deal breaker in your case?
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It is...
There are more tough...
- no onboard creation of new sounds
- no midi messages assignable to the knobs sliders and assignable buttons
- the knobs are not encoders
- no effects for the multipads
- the organ world is gone
And a few more...
So far there is not enough there to warrant paying more then €2500 on top of my pa4x
Thanks for the reply. I wondered how folks like yourself and Joe H would feel about the number of arps when I heard Harris mention it.
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Thanks for the reply. I wondered how folks like yourself and Joe H would feel about the number of arps when I heard Harris mention it.
I didn't hear him mention it. But as I stated in another thread or this one... the MX keyboard @ $500.00 USD has 999 arps and 2 live arpeggiators. So I think Genos buyers are ripped off. The Motif XF has far more capability for far less money... not to mention the enormous support Yamaha has offered over the last 15 years with Motif-Cubase Integration, serious software editors, documentation, blogs and forums.
Joe H
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I didn't hear him mention it. But as I satted in another thread or this one... the MX keyboard @ $500.00 USD has 999 arps and 2 live arpeggiators. So I think Genos buyers are ripped off. The Motif XF has far more capability for far less money... not to mention the enormous support Yamaha has offered over the last 15 years with Motif-Cubase Integration, serious software editors, documentation, blogs and forums.
Joe H
Yeah, it's not like they didn't have the arp content available and had to spend time on development. They have existed for some time. Deal breaker for some.
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Yeah, it's not like they didn't have the arp content available and had to spend time on development. They have existed for some time. Deal breaker for some.
I'm concerned about no dedicated buttons to solo style parts or for turning style parts on/off. I'll have to wait for the manual to see how this is done from the touch screen. Not a good design for the arranger. Dedicated buttons are necessary for any number of reasons while editing styles or auditioning Multi Pads to play along with the style. Now that Yamaha is taking a "use Multi Pads to enhance style" approach, Part On/Off buttons become even more important for the average person. I've been using this approach for 5 years and can say just how important this feature is.
Joe H
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I'm concerned about no dedicated buttons to solo style parts or for turning style parts on/off. I'll have to wait for the manual to see how this is done from the touch screen. Not a good design for the arranger. Dedicated buttons are necessary for any number of reasons while editing styles or auditioning Multi Pads to play along with the style. Now that Yamaha is taking a "use Multi Pads to enhance style" approach, Part On/Off buttons become even more important for the average person. I've been using this approach for 5 years and can say just how important this feature is.
Joe H
The slider and button design of the montage is perfect. For the price of the Genos they could have taken that.
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I didn't hear him mention it. But as I stated in another thread or this one... the MX keyboard @ $500.00 USD has 999 arps and 2 live arpeggiators. So I think Genos buyers are ripped off. The Motif XF has far more capability for far less money... not to mention the enormous support Yamaha has offered over the last 15 years with Motif-Cubase Integration, serious software editors, documentation, blogs and forums.
Joe H
Unfortunately the Genos is aimed at another type of customer: more sit and play instead of creating sound themselves. :(
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Uli,
I must clarify that I am a fan of XG. Yamaha sound designers have set the Voice Envelopes in such a way that the Part Parameter Offsets... Attack, Decay, Release controllers do a fairly good job. The advantage of this is real-time changes in both Filter and Amplitude Envelopes.
But I will also say that there are times when I would like to go deeper editing at the Element level. At least we can do that with custom Voices in YEM.
Joe H
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Make your own arps and stick them on a pad
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Make your own arps and stick them on a pad
There are many arps that would be very difficult to make if not impossible without a live arpeggiator. That's simply a fact. The arps that I am planning to make will have multiple real-time controllers as well as note data. An important element of EDM is fluid and animated loops and pads, that include Filter and Pan sweeps and side chaining
Joe H
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This one's for Bachus... and anyone who likes Trance music. there is 10 minutes worth so don't stop at the first demo, there is a lot more to be heard.
"It's not what you got but how you use it" or sometimes... "Less is more"
One Guy, One Synth, One Arpeggiator (Yamaha S90 ES) | JayB
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCwXyVF0p3U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCwXyVF0p3U)
Joe H
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I'm concerned about no dedicated buttons to solo style parts or for turning style parts on/off. I'll have to wait for the manual to see how this is done from the touch screen. Not a good design for the arranger. Dedicated buttons are necessary for any number of reasons while editing styles or auditioning Multi Pads to play along with the style. Now that Yamaha is taking a "use Multi Pads to enhance style" approach, Part On/Off buttons become even more important for the average person. I've been using this approach for 5 years and can say just how important this feature is.
Joe H
Don't understand this comment...in the Genos brochure, the dedicated Part On/Off buttons are indicated on the Genos (section 25). Seems just like on my Tyros 5; what am I missing here?
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Mike,
I think you are referring to Parts R1, R2, R3 and Left
I was talking about the 8 style parts... those 8 buttons (x2) below your Tyros screen.
Joe H
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Mike,
I think you are referring to Parts R1, R2, R3 and Left
I was talking about the 8 style parts... those 8 buttons (x2) below your Tyros screen.
Joe H
Ah. Doh. Thanks, Joe - blanked on the "style parts on/off" in your comment.
Right; looks like Genos is focusing the artist's attention on registrations as a primary tool in conjunction with the touch screen. Won't be surprised to see the style parts on/off functionality in the touch screens.
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Joe you probably misread my comment about the 2 rows of 8 buttons to the right.. they would pretty much work like the 4 rows of buttons on the montage... somif you want dedicated buttons for style part on off, you would have them... want to use them for something else.. you could do that..
With another of those nice small screens above them to give you information
This would not only add all the functionality you want, but also give the design of the Genos a much more ballanced look between left and right side..
By the way, saw you posted a video for me, i am in kind of a hurry, but will watch later today when i get home...
I think having the 4 rows of buttons the Montage has would be perfect to suit Joe and everyone else.
I think that part of the Montage design is genius.
In the end, having the montage design, with all the Arranger buttons beneath it and the just a little bit bigger screen would be perfect.
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Joe you probably misread my comment about the 2 rows of 8 buttons to the right.. they would pretty much work like the 4 rows of buttons on the montage... somif you want dedicated buttons for style part on off, you would have them... want to use them for something else.. you could do that..
With another of those nice small screens above them to give you information
This would not only add all the functionality you want, but also give the design of the Genos a much more ballanced look between left and right side..
By the way, saw you posted a video for me, i am in kind of a hurry, but will watch later today when i get home...
I guess you are talking about hypothetical buttons that could or should be on the Genos... it that right?
The Genos has 6 buttons for direct access to somethings and 6 assignable buttons on the right side.
Joe H
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Looking at the Demo's style parts are controlled by the sliders. You can turn them on or off very quickly.
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So how are we going to convince Yamaha we want to be able to load custom and user created arps?
The Montage did not have the ability to create user ARPS when it first shipped. Yamaha did listen to the hue and cry on the synth forum and eventually added this functionality.
Time to organize, mates!
-- pj
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The Montage did not have the ability to create user ARPS when it first shipped. Yamaha did listen to the hue and cry on the synth forum and eventually added this functionality.
Time to organize, mates!
-- pj
We know it's possible for Yamaha to do firmware updates for the Genos just as they have with the Montage. So they could add a second arpeggiator, more arps, add an Arp Editor to create your own and the ability to load User Arps.
As I noted before that the $500.00 USD MX49 keyboard has 2 live arpeggiators and 999 arps on-board.
But... will they listen is the question. We are all waiting on the manuals to see just how "programmable" those knobs and faders really are. They should support writing and sending ANY MIDI message and be able set minimum and maximum values.
I don't know about the MOX but the Motif Rack XS has encoders that are also buttons. There are 5 knobs programmed for 20 different parameters adjustable real-time.
You press the knob to see the current value of the parameter. when you change the value it is seamless and smooth (no jumps). The original parameter value and current value can be seen on the display any time you press the knob or turn it. So it's possible to always go back to the original setting if you want.
With my PC1600x I can map a foot pedal to control Arp Gate Time, Attack, Decay, release, Filter Cut-off and Resonance at the same time, with minimum and maximum values set for each. What this does is allow me to create a nuance not possible on the Motif keyboard except by using the same kind of PC1600x algorithm.
Let's hope the Genos allows the player to assign Arp Gate Time to a foot pedal. Just that single parameter can go a long way in creating real-time variations to a live arpeggiator.
Joe H
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But everyone who wants user arps and a creative tool to create them raise your hands
Count me in!
:)
Joe H
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Organising is hard when there are so many things on everyones wishlist... and every wishlist is different...
But everyone who wants user arps and a creative tool to create them raise your hands
Exactly. Count me in for user arps.
Now that I've said that, I'd like to amplify your point (and whine). ;) Let's focus, folks. One issue -- user-defined arps. Let's get that much even if Yamaha dictates how they are implemented.
Thanks -- pj
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I have 150 arps on my PSR-E433. Of course, it doesn't have the ability to upload new arps. I haven't used them much, but I did use one in a part of a song that I wrote and recorded. I have included a small clip where the arp is playing in the background. Toward the end of the clip, I turn up the envelope generator's release to allow the notes to gradually blend together. Except for the drums, I manually played all of the other parts (piano, bass, etc.) as part of a multi-track recording.
https://app.box.com/s/45nowisjr1hu1io5kd9d53yk1ujz91zb
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So if we want to make demands ... or aks nicely for improvement of the arp feature..
What should we shoot for with the current physical state of the Genos..
As its obvious that yamaha can not change the hardware...
Should we stick to this topic, or create a topic specifically for our wishes..
How should Yamaha change the arp feature to make it more usefull?
Here is my opinion...
1) add more arps then the current number of 210
2) open up the system so you can load user created arps from other yamaha instruments
3) add an option to create your own arps
4) make it so we can assign a user arp to each of the 4 panel voices. This should happen trough a specific window on the screen that opens when you hold the arp button for a bit longer.
5) add options for comtroling the arps trough the live controlls, pedals and assignable buttons.
Changing this. Would for me be a reason to upgrade from the pa4x to the Genos. Because when done this way, there is truely a reason to change from Pa4x to the Genos.
5)
Bachus, I absolutely agree it would be really great if there was a way to add in more arps - perhaps, say, from third parties - and then use them across the Genos' Styles as we wished. Think of the creative possibilities that would be opened up. Perhaps some kind of firmware update? I really hope so.
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Thats what we are aiming for, a firmware update..
What we need first is the attention of people that have real influence with Yamaha..
We need them to bring this topic to their doorsteps.
True that.
I had this idea last night and would like to offer it for the list. I apologize to anyone who might have suggested this before.
Every PSR/Tyros/Genos style is a potential source for arpeggio MIDI data. The styles, collectively, are one huge library of phrases. Since the keyboards can import new styles, a musician can easily bring their own arpeggios (musical phrases) into the system.
Yamaha needs to add the ability to: a. store user arpeggios, b. copy a musical phrase from a style and convert it to a user arpeggio.
This process is similar to the way Motif and Montage import and create user arpeggios.
Using styles as the phrase database, Yamaha has an instant phrase library and so do we. A copy and convert operation might also be handy for creating Multi Pads, too.
-- pj
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Here's a few extra thoughts. I wanted to keep my last message focused.
There's no reason to have Motif-envy. A lot of the Motif arpeggios started life as phrases in style MAIN, FILL-IN, BREAK, INTRO and ENDING sections. Of course, there are also the arpeggios started life in the old Yamaha beat-boxes like the RS7000. That's why I started thinking about the current existing PSR/Tyros/Genos styles as an "instant library."
In Montage-land, Yamaha seems to have orphaned the arpeggios. (Might be overstating this a bit.) When Yamaha moved from the Motif Performance concept to the Montage Performance concept, they lost the 5 (or 6) section mini-style, song starters. These style-like groups of phrases played together, so a quick drum+bass+guitar+whatever backing track could be played in real time into sequencer pattern or song tracks.
You can still play a Montage performance into its performance recorder, but all of those wonderfully composed groups of arps have been lost. Montage users wish and have asked Yamaha to convert them, but Yamaha hasn't take any action. This is what I mean by "orphaned."
Thus, I'm not optimistic about Yamaha converting any of its old content. :'(
-- pj
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keep in mind his does not really work for some of the more advanced but highly usefull arps..
Also there are restrictions, like a max of 16 different notes for an arp.
Hello Bachus --
I'm hoping that the Genos engineers will eliminate this ridiculous note limitation. This "encoding," if you will, always struck me as some kind of hack to reduce storage space.
I guess I'm expanding the discussion, but which advanced arp features did you have in mind? That short list would be good guidance for the Yamaha engineers.
All the best! Gotta run to the gym for a while -- pj
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True that.
I had this idea last night and would like to offer it for the list. I apologize to anyone who might have suggested this before.
Every PSR/Tyros/Genos style is a potential source for arpeggio MIDI data. The styles, collectively, are one huge library of phrases. Since the keyboards can import new styles, a musician can easily bring their own arpeggios (musical phrases) into the system.
Yamaha needs to add the ability to: a. store user arpeggios, b. copy a musical phrase from a style and convert it to a user arpeggio.
This process is similar to the way Motif and Montage import and create user arpeggios.
Using styles as the phrase database, Yamaha has an instant phrase library and so do we. A copy and convert operation might also be handy for creating Multi Pads, too.
-- pj
I already have a thousand phrases in C scale I could donate.
Joe H
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What really concerns me is that the Genos has the same identical Live Control options as the S970. The improvement is that these Live Control parameters can be assigned to the 6 knobs and 8 faders. Fader #9 is a Volume control.
No improvement to assign any of those parameters to a foot pedal. this is recycled PSR E433 on a $5000.00 keyboard. Unacceptable.
Joe H
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RE:
"In Montage-land, Yamaha seems to have orphaned the arpeggios. (Might be overstating this a bit.) When Yamaha moved from the Motif Performance concept to the Montage Performance concept, they lost the 5 (or 6) section mini-style, song starters. These style-like groups of phrases played together, so a quick drum+bass+guitar+whatever backing track could be played in real time into sequencer pattern or song tracks.
You can still play a Montage performance into its performance recorder, but all of those wonderfully composed groups of arps have been lost. Montage users wish and have asked Yamaha to convert them, but Yamaha hasn't take any action. This is what I mean by "orphaned."
_________________________________________________ _________________________________________________ ____
Hi, all the voices and more and all the Arps and more that made up these 4-part performances are still available in the Montage. Some Montage owners ( including Phil ) have, using the information in the manuals or having access to a Motif recreated these on the Montage. Converting your old favorites from the Motif is I think an excellent way to learn and experiment on the Montage. John Melas has hinted that he might do a conversion tool to convert all Motif performances to useable Montage performances. It takes a little time and effort ( which Yamaha have decided not to do as they want you to use the better Montage ones ) but is possible. The focus as always with the synthesizer line has always been the use of Arps/performances to kick start the creative process rather than using the supplied ideas as a fixed in stone (silicon) preset.
Christopher.
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RE:
"In Montage-land, Yamaha seems to have orphaned the arpeggios. (Might be overstating this a bit.) When Yamaha moved from the Motif Performance concept to the Montage Performance concept, they lost the 5 (or 6) section mini-style, song starters. These style-like groups of phrases played together, so a quick drum+bass+guitar+whatever backing track could be played in real time into sequencer pattern or song tracks.
You can still play a Montage performance into its performance recorder, but all of those wonderfully composed groups of arps have been lost. Montage users wish and have asked Yamaha to convert them, but Yamaha hasn't take any action. This is what I mean by "orphaned."
_________________________________________________ _________________________________________________ ____
Hi, all the voices and more and all the Arps and more that made up these 4-part performances are still available in the Montage. Some Montage owners ( including Phil ) have, using the information in the manuals or having access to a Motif recreated these on the Montage. Converting your old favorites from the Motif is I think an excellent way to learn and experiment on the Montage. John Melas has hinted that he might do a conversion tool to convert all Motif performances to useable Montage performances. It takes a little time and effort ( which Yamaha have decided not to do as they want you to use the better Montage ones ) but is possible. The focus as always with the synthesizer line has always been the use of Arps/performances to kick start the creative process rather than using the supplied ideas as a fixed in stone (silicon) preset.
Christopher.
Thanks for your post. Having recently purchased a Motif Rack XS I agree the 5 (on the MRXS) arp variations was an important element of the Performance Mode. I did not know this was eliminated on the Montage. I'm looking at how I can convert MRXS Multis to Multi Pads and style Parts for the arranger keyboards. It is nice to have access to those 6630 Motif arps.
:)
Joe H
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RE:
"In Montage-land, Yamaha seems to have orphaned the arpeggios. (Might be overstating this a bit.) When Yamaha moved from the Motif Performance concept to the Montage Performance concept, they lost the 5 (or 6) section mini-style, song starters. These style-like groups of phrases played together, so a quick drum+bass+guitar+whatever backing track could be played in real time into sequencer pattern or song tracks.
You can still play a Montage performance into its performance recorder, but all of those wonderfully composed groups of arps have been lost. Montage users wish and have asked Yamaha to convert them, but Yamaha hasn't take any action. This is what I mean by "orphaned."
_________________________________________________ _________________________________________________ ____
Hi, all the voices and more and all the Arps and more that made up these 4-part performances are still available in the Montage. Some Montage owners ( including Phil ) have, using the information in the manuals or having access to a Motif recreated these on the Montage. Converting your old favorites from the Motif is I think an excellent way to learn and experiment on the Montage. John Melas has hinted that he might do a conversion tool to convert all Motif performances to useable Montage performances. It takes a little time and effort ( which Yamaha have decided not to do as they want you to use the better Montage ones ) but is possible. The focus as always with the synthesizer line has always been the use of Arps/performances to kick start the creative process rather than using the supplied ideas as a fixed in stone (silicon) preset.
Christopher.
Hi Christopher --
Thanks for posting this and I agree. The point that I wanted to make WRT Genos is that Yamaha will only go so far converting its old content. Their policy puts the onus on either the end user to convert or for a 3rd party to build a tool (such as the excellent tools from John Melas).
I went the other way and converted MOX performances to PSR/Tyros styles. Did about about 24 of them. If I buy a Montage instead of a Genos, I will convert them back to Montage. (Cheesh. ::) )
I totally agree. This is an excellent way to deep dive and learn the intricacies of one's electronic instrument.
All the best -- pj
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Hi PJ, I see what you meant. :) Converting those MOX performances to styles must have been fun and I think something that lot of people overlook, which is the power of the styles. Used in combination with multi-pads they can be an incredibly expressive tool. A lot of talk about the Arps on the synthesizers seems to overlook the fact that the synths only have the Arps and now we get to have Arps on the new Genos as well(as styles and multi-pads). Great! Good luck on having to make a decision between the Genos and the Montage, a difficult one for sure but you know you will be happy with either. I'm lucky at the moment to have a Montage 8 and a Tyros 5-76 so I might be able to resist the urge for the Genos a little longer. :) Thanks for all the informative posts as well, they make for interesting reading.
Christopher.
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... Let's hope the Genos allows the player to assign Arp Gate Time to a foot pedal. Just that single parameter can go a long way in creating real-time variations to a live arpeggiator.
Joe H
Unfortunately it does NOT! Genos Pedal assignments only support Arp On/Off or Arp Hold... same as S970.
:(
Joe H
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So if we want to make demands ... or aks nicely for improvement of the arp feature..
What should we shoot for with the current physical state of the Genos..
As its obvious that yamaha can not change the hardware...
Should we stick to this topic, or create a topic specifically for our wishes..
How should Yamaha change the arp feature to make it more usefull?
Here is my opinion...
1) add more arps then the current number of 210
2) open up the system so you can load user created arps from other yamaha instruments
3) add an option to create your own arps
4) make it so we can assign a user arp to each of the 4 panel voices. This should happen trough a specific window on the screen that opens when you hold the arp button for a bit longer.
5) add options for comtroling the arps trough the live controlls, pedals and assignable buttons.
Changing this. Would for me be a reason to upgrade from the pa4x to the Genos. Because when done this way, there is truely a reason to change from Pa4x to the Genos.
Luckilly someone saved he essence of my contribution to this topic..
Now again, the question is how are we going to get Yamaha to add (some of) these to the Genos?
They actually did quite some big featurenupdates for the montage
So not all is lost, we just need to unite our wishes
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Bachus,
I think we just keep making an appeal to Yamaha that their TOTL arranger MUST offer more than the PSR E-433, S670, S770 and S970. After all the Genos IS now the TOTL arranger.
1. Minimum 2 live arps... 4 would be better
2. Assignable to Left, R1, R2, R3, Style Parts or Multi Pads.
3. Genos should also offer ALL Live Control functions assigned to a foot pedal or foot switch.
4. Full MIDI implementation (MIDI Data Formats like the Motif) All Live control parameters can be executed via system exclusive.
5. Live Control parameter setting on all knobs and faders be saved in registrations
6. Add all Motif XF arps and Mega Voices necessary to use with the Mega Arps
Joe H
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Bachus,
I think we just keep making an appeal to Yamaha that their TOTL arranger MUST offer more than the PSR E-433, S670, S770 and S970. After all the Genos IS now the TOTL arranger.
1. Minimum 2 live arps... 4 would be better
2. Assignable to Left, R1, R2, R3, Style Parts or Multi Pads.
3. Genos should also offer ALL Live Control functions assigned to a foot pedal or foot switch.
4. Full MIDI implementation (MIDI Data Formats like the Motif) All Live control parameters can be executed via system exclusive.
5. Live Control parameter setting on all knobs and faders be saved in registrations
6. Add all Motif XF arps and Mega Voices necessary to use with the Mega Arps
Joe H
Yes offcourse..
Arps assignable to the multipads and styles..
How could i have not seen this..
This would be so huge for creating diversity in a style.
Real arps playing, and you could controll the parameters amd chnage the arps and so your auto acomp trough changing the arp in real time, or even trough prerecorded controll messages..
Definately would be huge..
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Joe, how much success did you have turning the midi of a styletrack into an arp?
We know Montage has a feature that turns any midi track into an arp..
But would such a tool work in the Genos too?
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... Real arps playing, and you could control the parameters amd chnage the arps and so your auto accompaniment through changing the arp in real time, or even through prerecorded control messages..
Definately would be huge..
I can do this with my Motif Rack XS Multis. I created an algorithm made up of Arp Gate Time, Attack, Decay, Release, Filter Cutoff and Resonance simultaneously. Each parameter is adjusted with its own minimum and maximum value. the PC1600x faders are mapped to a pedal as Master Fader so I can control the algorithm with a foot pedal real-time. I will try to record an example this weekend.
I also DID made a style Part using the S970 arpeggiator. The recorded arp was manipulated with real-time Arp Note Gate Time using Live Control to create a unique one of a kind arp. I will try to record an example of that as well.
I'm hoping Yamaha will add the sysex data formats for arp parameters on the Genos. When I requested them for the S970 I was told they don't exist. :(
I have turned MANY style Parts into arps and converted them to Multi Pads and converted Multi Pads to style Parts. Just recently I converted a bunch of Motif arps to Multi Pads using Pad-Maker-Midi. These are good for Trance music and other EDM. Michael Bedesem's MixMaster has a Batch Process for converting style parts and Multi Pads into pure MIDI loops. You have the option of including the Voice messages and other MIDI data or just the note data alone.
This function allows us to convert thousands of ready to use MIDI loops created from style parts and Multi Parts that are 100% compatible with our arranger keyboards. And I'm talking about all styles and genre of musical tastes.
I have made several appeals to the author of StyleMagic to add Import MIDI Loop to his next program update. If he does this, it will be possible to load loops into StyleMagic to build styles much the same way as in a DAW but I think a lot easier. Plus StyleMagic allows us to easily create the CASM settings and convert to a style. Not to mention the great Voice Editor and Drum Kit Editor.
Joe H
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Great informational post, Joe. These are the kind of posts that are very helpful to everyone on the forum, and I'm really happy to have you here.
Keep up the good work,
Gary :cool:
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Thanks Gary. I'm still working nearly full time at 70 years of age. This really puts a damper on my hobby projects. There are a couple of tutorials I would like to write, but so little time.
Lately it seems like there is a lot of "chewing the fat" and not so much help with how to get the most out of our keyboards.
About two yeas ago I contacted several forum members and proposed a group effort to write a tutorial on style making that included all available tools, the technical aspects of building a style, the musicality of styles, mixing and arranging. I don't know how this could be coordinated except by a video conference for an initial discussion followed up by group emails and maybe a couple more video conferences.
It would be nice to produce a comprehensive tutorial that might include in-depth documentation with screen shots of the keyboard and software where applicable and short videos on "How To" techniques. But... it's just wishful thinking... I'm just a dreamer on this I think.
Regards,
Joe H
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Joe, I will be 77 next week, and I didn't retire until last year, mainly because health issues forced me to retire. The best advice I have for you is to take some time to smell the roses before someone places roses on your casket. I should have retired at age 70, but when you are an musician/entertainer and work 7 days a week and the money is flowing in it's hard to say no when someone offers to pay you for having this much fun.
I celebrated my 72 birthday sailing down the Atlantic Intra-Coastal Waterway to the Florida Keys where I spent that winter. It was as close to retirement as you can get, and I only performed two to thee nights a week while I was there, which paid all my expenses. If I were not so busted up, I would do it this month, but now my lungs are shot and I am slowly dieing of pulmonary fibrosis from asbestos contact when I was a young kid in the US Navy.
I have done several tutorials for the site, which can be found under projects. If I were going to do one today, it would be all video with audio voice overs, which have a greater impact than those that I merely wrote. The only reason I was success with the written projects is for many years I was a full-time, freelance outdoor writer for 25 publications. For me it was relatively easy, but without that experience, it would have been a lot more time consuming and difficult.
Thanks again for your efforts and contributions to the forum,
Gary 8)
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Hi Gary,
I've decide to go to a 4 day work week... so that's a start in the right direction I think. ;)
:)
Joe H
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Thanks for sharing - I have just really begun with Arp's.
I use a combination of my T5 with Logic Pro X which has some Synth Plug-ins with programable ( customizable Std Patterns) ARP's.
So this combo offers quite a selection:
1) I can just trigger the ARP in Logic by playing a note or chord on my T5.
2) I can combine a T5 Multi-Pad (Arp) with a Logic Arp ( 2 separate tracks- same BPM) - and get something Strange / amazing / Exciting / different results.
3) I can take a T5 MP play it thru a Logic Synth where the T5 MP gives the 'pattern' and Logic is revoicing it.
The dropbox link is an example of:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/b9crrqev7izokpv/EDM%20chant.mp3?dl=0
1) T5 Style and MP
2) Logic Arp
3) T5 Ensemble voice
4) Apple loops and samples
8)
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I don't have an account with Google drop box so I can't listen to your arps.
Joe H
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Thanks for sharing - I have just really begun with Arp's.
I use a combination of my T5 with Logic Pro X which has some Synth Plug-ins with programable ( customizable Std Patterns) ARP's.
So this combo offers quite a selection:
1) I can just trigger the ARP in Logic by playing a note or chord on my T5.
2) I can combine a T5 Multi-Pad (Arp) with a Logic Arp ( 2 separate tracks- same BPM) - and get something Strange / amazing / Exciting / different results.
3) I can take a T5 MP play it thru a Logic Synth where the T5 MP gives the 'pattern' and Logic is revoicing it.
The dropbox link is an example of:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/b9crrqev7izokpv/EDM%20chant.mp3?dl=0
1) T5 Style and MP
2) Logic Arp
3) T5 Ensemble voice
4) Apple loops and samples
8)
Nice performance
Logic/mainstage has a very nice arpeggiator, also Omnisphere, Reason and Halio. Have very nice arps.
I even started a topic about this ar kvr audio, the worlds most popular vst forum, and it seems people agree overthere, nothing comes close to the diversity of Yamaha’s motif and montage arps..
If you want Yamaha’s arps and make full use of it, we still seems to be condemned to using a montage.. why cant yamaha understand that this feature is also very very usefull for arrangers? In a more pro form, i guess...
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God bless you "Gary", and may you have many good days and years of enjoyment ahead into your retirement. Stay as activate as you can as you fight your unfortunate ailment, which seems to be in your nature anyway. Above all, thank you for your service, your sacrifices and others make this world a safer place.
Marcus
The Yamaha arranger keyboards already have a nice assortment of Multipads with arpeggio patterns. I assume their will be a bunch included in the new Genos addition of Multipads. Multipads, for the most part, seem to be ignored by a lot of arranger users, but I use that powerful feature all the time.
In Multipad Creator, you can edit or substitute another voice into an arpeggio pattern, while even accessing your custom voice edit saves or any voice in your expansion folder (Tyros 5). Above all, Multipads can allow 4 arpeggio patterns to play at the same time or with style parts playing and of course usually set to follow your chords.
Above that, on the Genos, I can assume that Multipads sounds/voices can be dynamically altered through the "Live Controller", just like the other assigned parts where the sound can be shaped during a live performance. So one cannot rule out the powerful Multipad arpeggios and the fact that four can play at the same time.
Above even that, REX/REX2 files can be assigned to a Multipad or built up within various style RHY parts. Huge potential in voice creation within the new Genos YEM program. Looking forward to this. REX files give us the option of still creating quality Audio RHY parts in a style. For some reason YamahaMusicSoft removed the Golden Oldies REX Style pack from the site. I ready wanted to purchase these and study their structure, but I am pretty sure how they were made with the REX files assembled within the various style parts. There is no loss of audio quality using a REX file within a reasonable tempo range.
REX2 files can add the stereo element to a standard REX file. In Recycle or Reason 7/8 programs, intricate and complex DSP effects can be added with alternating Left/Right stereo effects built separately into each slice of the file. These files need not to be limited to sequencer programs or DAW, but have huge potential within a hardware arranger. When transferred to a Tyros 5 or better in the Genos, the original stereo DSP effects edited and inserted into the REX2 file is reproduced on the Tyros5/Genos with no loss of sound quality. When the REX file is played through a Multipad or style RHY part, I can see no reason why the Genos live controllers cannot dynamically add to the huge potential of using REX files within your overall mix and music creation.
Really looking forward to the Genos Reference and Data specs and how in depth the YEM2 will be.
Check out Slice Edit Mode (8:30 - 13:35)
Reason | Creating REX files Without ReCycle | Pyramind
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01s0XOx3wz0
Marcus
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... Above that, on the Genos, I can assume that Multipads sounds/voices can be dynamically altered through the "Live Controller", just like the other assigned parts where the sound can be shaped during a live performance. So one cannot rule out the powerful Multipad arpeggios and the fact that four can play at the same time...
Marcus
Marcus,
Unless you have seen it in writing... don't assume anything. It is unlikely Yamaha has implemented what you describe above. Multi Pads are pre-recorded arps and cannot be manipulated real-time. We can edit them... adding continuous controllers with Pan and Filter Sweeps, Portamento, Add DSP 1 Send, Attack, Decay and Release, etc. The same applies to style Parts which are also pre-recorded arps. That is the big difference between Multi Pads and style parts and a live arpeggiator.
I think there are about 50 more arps in the Genos over the S970s 160 or so.
From the demos I watched, Yamaha has taken a new approach for the arranger and given us many more Multi Pads to compliment styles. Apparently Peter at Easy Sounds was aware of this concept and implemented it in his new expansion pack Magic Dance. Magic Dance comes with 600 Multi Pads (150 MP Banks). I think some of these Multi Pads came from the Motif or Montage.
I suspect we will find the Genos allows the live arpeggiator to be assigned to R1, R2, R3 or all three Voices at once... which is how the S970 works. I don't know how the live arps are setup in the Motif and Montage architecture, but they seem to be linked to the sequencer.
In the arranger, we have several sequencers:
1. Style (Creator) loop sequencer (Type 0)
2. MIDI Song sequencer (Type 0)
3. Multi Pad loop sequencer (Type 1)
4. Voice Set sequencer (Type 0)
Since the Style sequencer is a special MIDI file... Standard MIDI File plus OTS and CASM chunks, it may not be possible to incorporate a live arp into a style.
Joe H
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Marcus,
......"Unless you have seen it in writing... don't assume anything. It is unlikely Yamaha has implemented what you describe above. Multi Pads are pre-recorded arps and cannot be manipulated real-time. We can edit them... adding continuous controllers with Pan and Filter Sweeps, Portamento, Add DSP 1 Send, Attack, Decay and Release, etc. The same applies to style Parts which are also pre-recorded arps. That is the big difference between Multi Pads and style parts and a live arpeggiator"............
Joe H
Correct, you cannot edit Pan and Filter Sweeps, Portamento, Add DSP 1 Send, Attack, Decay and Release in a Multipad or using the Genos continuous controllers. What I was suggesting was, such dynamics could be added and edited within a REX2 file before being imported to the YEM and then to a Genos Multipad or assembled into a Genos RHY style part. When played on the Genos, all the pre-edited Pan and Filter Sweeps, Portamento, external DSPs, Attack, Decay, Release edits are already processed within the stereo REX2 file in Recycle/ Reason or compatible program/DAW.
The only thing the Genos live control can do however, is just mix the volume level (REX2 multipad or REX2 style part). As far as the above, the Tyros 5 already accepts REX2 files, so personally I am going to investigate this potential on the Genos or whatever improvements were done to the YEM2. ****, where are the Genos Data, Reference, Computer/App, YEM2 pdf manuals? ::) :'(
Marcus
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Marcus,
I assume that is a typo. Multi Pads CAN be edited to your heart's content... as you describe for the REX2. I doubt you will have much advantange with REX2 on the Genos. From what I've heard so far, Genos equals the sound quality of REX2... so working in MIDI will be an advantage over REX2 files.
Joe H
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Multipads are midi loops..
Since we cant synchronise audioloops, they dont count
These are static sequences
Arpeggio’s can so,etimes be a static sequnce
However, most of the time, they have been set to be much more dynamic
For example with the pattern starting over each time you play a new key..
Multipads are not arps.. while they can be a static arpegio...
They are not arps, and will never be..
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Multipads are midi loops..
...Multipads are not arps.. while they can be a static arpegio...
They are not arps, and will never be..
Exactly!
Joe H
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Marcus,
I assume that is a typo. Multi Pads CAN be edited to your heart's content... as you describe for the REX2. I doubt you will have much advantange with REX2 on the Genos. From what I've heard so far, Genos equals the sound quality of REX2... so working in MIDI will be an advantage over REX2 files.
Joe H
Sorry about that Joe, I misread your post. You can edit multipads, but fairly limited in Multipad creator, and no real-time editing.
REX files are MIDI controlled. Each slice is mapped to a key note and played in sequence to a tempo, thus no loss in audio quality. The Tyros 5 Audio drum parts are audio and quality does degrade beyond a reasonable tempo with time stretch.
Sorry I'm am not that familiar with Arps or Arp generators, but I am learning a lot from everyone's perspective. For me, I can be quite content using arpeggio MIDI loops within a Multipad. They would follow the style tempo and follow the chording. As far as I can tell, the Genos arpeggio feature is clocked to the tempo and notes dictated by the chord and pattern selected. I can't see any difference converting them to an exact Multipad copy, plus up to four arps can play at the same as a Multipad.
I also no difference converting the exact arp MIDI loop into a style part. I also no difference setting the Genos Chord fingering to "FINGERED" to activate the Style "Sync Stop" button and restarting the arp loop pattern each time you play a chord. I also see no reason why every arp/voice combination on the Genos could not be converted to an exact MIDI loop copy (or substituted Tyros 5 voice) and transferred to a Tyros 5 and play the exact arps within a style or a Multipad. The only difference is, the Genos has the added "live control". Of course "live control" works great on arps and more contemporary music types, one of the strong points of the Genos.
Marcus
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Multi-pads are probably the most underutilized feature of an arranger keyboard by live entertainers. Essentially, as an entertainer, it's one of those overlooked features that we rarely thought about while on stage, but in the studio, it jumps out and says "Let me make your song sound great!"
I, for one, was guilty of overlooking multi-pads for many year, but after I discovered what they could do to enhance my performances, they were a go to item on every job - and the audiences noticed the difference immediately.
Great discussion, guys and gals, keep them coming,
Gary 8)
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Marcus,
Our style Main Sections and Multi Pads are recorded MIDI loops. The arpeggiator in the S970 is very basic. There is a "pattern" programmed into the arpeggio that is often anchored to a Root note. (usually played with the thumb of the right hand). The simplest arps are the Up , Down and Up/Down, Down/Up all of which can be 1 octave, 2 octaves or 3 octaves.
Lets take the simple Up arp. The arp follows the notes you play on the keyboard. It could be 2, 3, 4, or 5 notes. You can play any notes you wish and the arp follows the "Up Pattern" following whatever notes you are playing. If you are playing a chord, then you get the standard "broken chord" arpeggio. But if you are moving you fingers around to different notes as the arp pattern plays, you get variations on the arp output. You can be switching between 2 notes and 3 notes and get more variations. If you have real-time Arp Note Gate Time things begin to get interesting because now you can change the note length at will so that some notes play legato and some play staccato and maybe some in between.
On the S970, and no doubt on the Genos, if you have the Arp Menu open, you can change arps on-the-fly using the same Voice to create even more complex arp patterns. You can also layer R1, and R2 playing the arp or have R1 play the arp while R2 plays a synth pad... or plays the same Voice sustained while R1 plays the arp pattern.
Now it is possible to record all this and convert it to a Multi Pad. So... Multi Pads don't have to be the stagnant repetitious loop but could have the dynamics close to the live arp if done well.
So I think you and Bachus are both right. It's not what we have, but how we use it. I see even with the limited single live arp we can create new and interesting style Parts and Multi Pads with a little creative imagination.
Some arps have both note data and controller data... usually this is Filter, Pan or Expression. The newest XS and XF arps in the Motif (an I assume in the Montage are far more complicated and use Mega Voices that may have both Drum/percussion samples and Normal samples programmed in them) and the arp is programmed so the velocity of the arp notes triggers the different samples.
I think very few people here have explored the arps on the S970. A couple of other important arp parameters are Arp Note Velocity and Unit Multiply. Real-time variation of the Arp note Velocity can be as effective as real-time variation of the Arp Gate Time with certain Voices that are velocity sensitive and may have filter mapped to velocity. Another parameter that can be effective is Release time that will give a similar result as Gate Time. It requires a lot of experimenting to learn how to "play" the arps.
So I understand why Bachus says Multi Pads are not arps... they aren't. But it is possible to created more interesting Multi Pads by recording the arps and applying real-time effects via the knobs and faders on the Genos and recording them to the sequencer so they can be converted to a style Part or Multi Pad.
I'm very happy Yamaha added this new tool to their arrangers. Like Bachus, I think Yamaha fell short on what they could have included... and we will have to see once the board is in the hands of some of the forum members as to any improvements over the S970 OTHER than more knobs and sliders.
Regards,
Joe H
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Awesome explanation. Thanks for taking the time writing that post. Looking forward to what the Genos can create and explore with this new Arp feature. If I ever use this feature, it will be mostly for creating realistic guitar, piano and other traditional instrumental patterns.
For me, perhaps as a tool to create fixed Multipad and style parts, even though some may cringe at that limitation, unless I am inspired into some contemporary mindset and delve deeper. I'm sure some more awe inspiring Genos video demos are on the way. Great thread and discussion as we wait for the true details of the Genos.
Marcus
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Marcus,
I didn't comment on the Unit Multiply because it would have just added a distraction to the points I wanted to make. Unit Multiply will half-time or double the speed of the 4/4 time signature. The settings in between half and double I believe will create 3/4 time signatures. So an arp doesn't have to be playing FAST. It can be slow. Just listen to the different musical phrases in our style parts. It is most likely many of those loops were created with an arpeggiator.
Joe H
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... and we will have to see once the board is in the hands of some of the forum members as to any improvements over the S970 OTHER than more knobs and sliders.
Regards,
Joe H
Well attached is from Genos Data List Book. It looks like Yamaha implemented my suggestion for the S970 (BTW.. which Yamaha Engineers said it couldn't be done) Many of the Arp parmaters and Live Control Parameters are saved in OTS, Registrations, and Voice Set.
Joe H
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I'm going to try to revive this thread after I was rudely interrupted by a stroke two days after the last post. ( October 16) I went through 3 weeks of intense physical and occupational therapy plus speech therapy (3 hours a day) followed by Carotid Artery surgery in early December
I connected the Motif Rack XS audio outs to the Aux audio In on the S970 so I could record a couple of Performances using the on-board USB Audio recorder. I created an algorithm using my MIDI hardware controller that implements several XG messages in real-time using a foot controller. People with a Genos might be able to create a similar setup with the faders if you can set the minimum and maximum values for the sliders and assign the 9th slider as Master Fader.
My setup looks like this:
Resonance: 64 - 68
Filter Cut Off: 64 - 68
Attack Rate: 64 - 68
Decay rate: 60 - 68
Release Rate: 60 - 70
Arp Gate: 75 - 180
If you listen closely, you will hear changes going from staccato to lagato in the 4 arps as they play. The controls effect all 4 arps because they all play one MIDI channel 1.
Motif Arianes NightWalk Performance
https://app.box.com/s/kllnut2tb20iwo7eczn98c44bc9fhsmp (https://app.box.com/s/kllnut2tb20iwo7eczn98c44bc9fhsmp)
Motif Tollhouse Performance
https://app.box.com/s/8wad8y42jlsy4p7kj9h1wx27dnud74nu (https://app.box.com/s/8wad8y42jlsy4p7kj9h1wx27dnud74nu)
I will be posting a similar demo using S970 arps. My setup for the S970 uses a different algorithm for the XG controllers.
Joe H
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OK,
Here is a demo on the S970 with a custom style using Magic Dance pack Voices. The XG controllers are set different than for the Motif and are optimized for R1 and R2 to get the results you hear. I don't know whether you can setup the Genos Live Control sliders to accomplish the same thing as I did with my external Peavey PC1600x MIDI controller.
S970 Dynamic Arp
https://app.box.com/s/iz9wf4bllx7xrviatdut7y8p640lf1ye (https://app.box.com/s/iz9wf4bllx7xrviatdut7y8p640lf1ye)
Joe H