Author Topic: Recording straight from the Genos  (Read 627 times)

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Offline ugawoga

Recording straight from the Genos
« on: December 07, 2018, 11:46:34 AM »
Hi

I would like to know who has a near cd quality recording straight fom the Genos  that may just need a little limiting.
Also how to attain that high quality.
Does the Genos need  to go through the processes in a daw to get Cd quality at the right levels.
I have always found recording at flat  on Genos never gets anywhere near a pro cd quality and level.
Any good tips from the advanced guys on the Genos.


All the best
john
 

Offline Lee Batchelor

Re: Recording straight from the Genos
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2018, 12:50:15 PM »
Hi John,

I have never recorded audio straight from the Genos, but I would assume the EQ and compression processing in the Genos is not as good as in a DAW or other external processing software on a Mac or PC. It all comes down to recording flat from the Genos, and then processing the audio up to pro levels. That is a life time of study on its own, however, with some practice you can get good at it. It takes a keen ear. I've done it but have never achieved the quality of the big boys and girls. Without formal training, it all boils down to trial and error.

Are you recording vocals too? If so, what mic are you using? The pro level studios use very expensive mics for recording singers. I believe they also use very high end sound interfaces. I use the Steinberg UR-44. It's very robust but probably not as good as what some of the pro guys use.
Current Gear: Genos, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compacts, 15 inch sub designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44.
 

Offline ugawoga

Re: Recording straight from the Genos
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2018, 02:31:55 PM »
Hi Lee

I do now record flat and I am having a big go at mix and mastering In Cubase.
My first attempt was  boomy bass and thin sounding on other equipment.
Since then I have got some sound acoustic tiles in my room and things are looking up.
I also purchased a good set of AKG 701's and Sonarworks headphone Reference.
Another couple of tries later ,firstly gain staging and eqing each track things are improving.
Like you I just cannot get to that level a pro gets to yet but pretty near.
I will go over my track again and again until It sounds almost  the same to  reference tracks.
It is funny because I mixed my song to -15 LUF's and It still did not come out the same as the pros at -15 LUF's.
I am starting to read Mike Seniors guide to mixing.
It was recommended to me.
Well It will make good reading. Anything to get better at it.

So now it comes down to perception of sound and those small moves on eq's and compression that get's It up to the top levels.
It will obviously take time and making templates of different genre's  can help. also a lot of time wasting!! ::) :P ;D.
It's all the fun of the fair Lee. lots of knob twisting a fader moving trial and error. :-\ :-X



All the best
john
 

Offline EileenL

Re: Recording straight from the Genos
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2018, 02:55:19 PM »
I have always been happy with CD's I have produced straight from keyboard. Some have added DSP settings and extra reverb even a little echo in places. I don't record with the EQ on flat though. I only do that when playing out because I am using an external mixer along with speakers.

Offline ugawoga

Re: Recording straight from the Genos
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2018, 03:29:06 PM »
Hi Eileen

I have had a listen to some of your songs and they are obviously a different genre to mine but you do seem to have higher recordings than me.
I even got higher recordings from the Tyros but not the Genos. Something I am not doing and It must be simple.
I am not talking about ear busting levels. When i put them on the clubs , I have to use a limiter to get a good volume to equal others.
So some eq and compression could make those Genos recordings much better.
The thing is that In Cubase the Genos sounds are already in stereo and there is not a lot of positioning to do .if you did you would be destroying that sound.
I would like to get my songs to a higher volume perception or a hotter signal so then I can get the body into the song and then lower It If you have to.
You can also eq in Cubase for fine adjustments that can compliment a finished track.
I want to write my own music and that is why I want to get to a standard before embarking on that trail.


All the best
John
 

Offline EileenL

Re: Recording straight from the Genos
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2018, 04:27:15 PM »
Hi John,
  As you know I use Genos speakers in doors   and work from my own registration banks in which I set up all my volume and effects. I always record to mid first as most do. That way you can do further balancing before recording into Audio. There I watch the volume meter dose not go into the red. I have plenty of volume then. I always make sure that my volume slider is at 127 then have my main volume knob set at about One O'clock.
 

Offline ugawoga

Re: Recording straight from the Genos
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2018, 04:48:10 PM »
Hi Eileen

I just had a thought that maybe the speakers that go with the Genos helps better as I did with the tyros 5 speakers.
Because now I have much stonger speakers , I have to find that middle ground .
I can now get up to a good level by working in Cubase, but I would like a hotter recording from the Genos without going Into the red. This gives a song more warmth and body.
I think it is not to do with volume, it is to do with pre-gain,eq and compression.
Yes ,It is all a fine balance between settings and It will be nice to hit the sweet spots and that will come when i study Harder!! :)
I do know Eileen that you have quite a bit of knowledge and experience and I do get an honest opinon from you and I respect that.

All the best
John :)
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 04:52:32 PM by ugawoga »
 

Online Toril S

Re: Recording straight from the Genos
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2018, 06:13:48 PM »
I thought I was the only one that recorded to MIDI first! Good to know there are others!
Toril S

Tyros 5, PSR S970, PSR 2100 and PSR-47.

Toril's PSR Performer Page
 

Re: Recording straight from the Genos
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2018, 06:42:18 PM »
Hello John,

To obtain a good Audio result, it is to store the file in .Wav format generated by the keyboard (or the DAW) on a USB key and to insert this one on a PC, then "Import" this file. on Audacity and choose "Export" in .MP3 format which allows to choose in the menu of Audacity the highest compression ratio, is 320kbits / s to obtain a sound of very high quality but with a more bulky volumetry.

Best regards

Jean-Pierre 33
 

Offline ugawoga

Re: Recording straight from the Genos
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2018, 08:02:07 PM »
Hi Toril
I record Midi first into sequencer and then record to wave
Mp3 is  not the best format but is acceptable for the masses who have mp3 players
Wave files are the best format and then Flac or AAC.

All the best
john
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 09:21:51 PM by ugawoga »
 

Offline rattley

Re: Recording straight from the Genos
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2018, 11:34:59 PM »
Hello Toril,

I always record to MIDI first too. Then play the MIDI back while recording to WAV. I usually record as a single take and those MIDI's haven't been edited. Someday I will edit some but I am still having to much fun playing Genos right out of the box.   -charley

 

Offline keynote

Re: Recording straight from the Genos
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2018, 10:37:50 AM »
Here is a recording straight from the Genos to my computer DAW i.e. Sonar Platinum. I'm singing on top of a midi and also using the vocal harmony function for added effect. Is it CD quality? I'll leave that up to the members of this forum to decide. ;)

My setup includes a Shure SM58 mic. I'm also using professional quality cables. My audio interface is a Universal Audio Arrow thunderbolt 3 (sound card) that is hooked up to my computer where everything is recorded using Sonar Platinum. I'm also using a Mackie 1202 VLZ Pro mixer that outputs to 2 Mackie HR824 Mk2 speakers. Speakers are also an important piece of the puzzle. You can record quality music through the Genos but playback of the audio is better appreciated if you can listen to the music through quality speakers.  8)

I am using the Gold EQ setting on my Genos with slight modifications to the original settings. Enjoy!

Mike

PS: For your convenience I posted the song below in .mp3 format. It is the highest quality setting i.e. variable up to 320kbps. The song was recorded in .wav format which I then converted to mp3. The difference in quality is minimal in my opinion. I couldn't post the .wav file here because it is larger than 7MB which is the maximum size allowed from what I understand.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2018, 10:40:08 AM by keynote »
 

Offline ugawoga

Re: Recording straight from the Genos
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2018, 12:10:45 PM »
Hi Keynote
I am picking up quite a few things and here is my tack on things so far.

You have Gold settings and quality equipment and decent monitor speakers
Your music sounds really good on the quality side.
I have a modern type Jarre song that I have been playing with the past month and just have a little more to do as I have been playing It on my stereo and in the car to get a good idea where I am at. I am determined to get It right before posting here on this forum and then critical remarks would be appreciated.
I have done the gain staging In Cubase and eqing and finally exported to wave, but as I said still not happy at the moment. I need the drums up a little and the lead synth and more warmth.

Now, Eileen has told us how she does It and I tried Eileens way by main volume at one  o'clock and faders at 127 for a quick recording. Recording flat without eq and compression in the Master area. I thought It best to start like this because Eileen uses the Genos System speakers  which would be similar to the Tyros speakers. For this I used headphones to get in that ballpark and then try It out on bigger speakers for the test
Yes ,you can fiddle with the eq's and effects etc and  and balance and then record Eileens way.
I compared her recording with my Tyros 5 recordings and they were all roughly around the same area taking into account of different genre's.
I had some great recordings off the Tyros, but could not achieve that on the Genos to my satisfaction.
I also know that the Genos is a far better keyboard and It has then got to be pilot era. So if all ok Cubase to do the little nuances.

The thing with recording and mixing Is that if you record too low things can become a lot harder to achieve a decent quality level as everything has to work harder and I have found out exactly that with some background noise going through my Focusrite 6i6. Too much gain.. Yes, you can gate It out with a noise filter.

I think that i recorded too low as my faders on everything was about halfway and  trying to leave headroom.

I have now come to the point i want to now make.

With the Genos what is considered Input gain other than cranking up effects, because In Cubase you set the input gains to about -12 db for each track.
This is why i am thinking that to get a decent level with the Genos some sort of gain is needed  to get into the ballpark.
The Genos has a volume knob and volume sliders for recoording midi in this case and recordings can come out stronger than others even at the same level without going into the red.
What i am trying to say is how do we get the Genos to the way we perceive sound rather than cranking the volume up to get the same result
If we just crank the volume up and do not go into the red the recordings can sound half the sound perception of a CD track quality.
So It is great to hear how other people record their music because I am still learning.
I do practice a lot and have fun ,but I also like learning.
When you put music on Soundcloud etc your recordings  can sound weaker as they put limiters on it and squash to mp3 power, but some learned people get over that somehow and that is all to do with how we perceive sound. Anyone for a LUF!!! :o ;D

It would be nice If Yamaha did a tutorial on this sort of thing rather than how to save files etc.
Dont get me wrong, I am getting there slowly. :o


All the best
John :)
« Last Edit: December 08, 2018, 12:18:38 PM by ugawoga »
 

Offline EileenL

Re: Recording straight from the Genos
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2018, 12:49:41 PM »
Hi John,
  The only thing I switch off when recording is the compressor and this was told to me by one of the Yamaha lads a while back. I do use EQ settings but they are Yamaha preset ones as they suit my set up. I did not like the golden set as supplied by Leigh Wilbraham, was to over the top for me. Now days there is very little difference between WAV and MP3. For me not enough to worry about.
.

Offline andyg

Re: Recording straight from the Genos
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2018, 03:27:47 PM »
FWIW....

I record to MIDI first, listen carefully and then rebalance if required. Then record via aux/line outputs to a digital recorder or to my laptop's docking station which has auto sensing of line or mike levels. I can then wind the recording level up to max if I like. But it's safer to bring the levels down a little so you don't clip. Absolutely flat EQ and definitely no compression in the keyboard or the recorder/DAW.

If I'm recording in one take, I'll use the DSP effects in the keyboard, but if time permits, I'll play each part of the MIDI song into the DAW/recorder separately, with no FX at all. That way, once all the tracks are safely in the DAW I can remix and add any DSP effects I like - I have an arsenal of them in the DAW and most are better than the ones in the keyboard.

Once everything's done, I'll master the tracks, adding some compression, EQ, stereo widening or whatever it needs.

All really down to personal preferences, how much gear you have and how much time you have (and how fussy you are!) :)
It's not what you play, it's not how you play. It's the fact that you're playing that counts.

www.andrew-gilbert.com
 

Offline ugawoga

Re: Recording straight from the Genos
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2018, 06:30:34 PM »
Hi To Eileen and Andy and the band of merry men and women (lucky i got that right) ;D

I disagree with Eileen on the point that there is no difference between wave and mp3.
There is a huge gap for me there.
I must admit Eileen that songs that do not contain a huge amount of detail mp3 is fine.  --at 320kpbs
Flac is better and AAC files.
I do know this as i love music ,especially rock and soft music. My Marantz system does show the difference to my ears.
Never mind as we all have different lug holes!! ;) ;D and it is all down to taste especially Fillet steak and a bottle of fine red wine!! :P

I almost do what Andy does but have to get the little nuances right.
Focus alpha 50  monitors for a 10ft x 10ft room are in a class of their own and outweigh any competition and are a steal for the price.
After that it is down to the mixer.
.


All the best
John :)
« Last Edit: December 08, 2018, 10:01:15 PM by ugawoga »
 

Offline Lee Batchelor

Re: Recording straight from the Genos
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2018, 02:13:12 AM »
Agreed to a point, John. In fairness to Eileen and others who hear little difference between .mp3 and .wav files, I agree that over computer speakers and other lower quality speakers, including the Genos speakers, there is no real difference. When played over a REAL system or high-end studio monitors, there's a significant difference. I still use my original Altec Lansing, Voice of the Theater system from 1974! Those speakers just won't die and they provide excellent bench marks for audio production.

I always export my finished audio files as .wav, unless there are space limitations in the destination file area.
Current Gear: Genos, SoundCraft mixer, two Bose L1 Compacts, 15 inch sub designed and built by myself, Yamaha HS8 studio monitors, Cubase 8 Artist, Steinberg UR-44.
 

Offline J. Larry

Re: Recording straight from the Genos
« Reply #17 on: Yesterday at 01:35:10 AM »
In PreSonusí Studio One DAW, it has a mastering section, as well.  For louder, punchier mixes, just take your final mix in a wav file and import it into the mastering section.  There, you can put a limiter on the final output, select your limit ceiling, and slowly raise the limiter gain while the song is playing.  You can definitely make the song louder, with the faders bumping right up to 0db.  To my ears, itís all done in the mastering process.   
 

Offline ugawoga

Re: Recording straight from the Genos
« Reply #18 on: Yesterday at 05:16:02 PM »
Hi Larry

It Is no good just raising the volume or limiting It for loudness just for loudness as distortion can arise
It is all about getting the right input and warmth  and clarity before limiting
Gain staging before mixing is the place to start.
This Is what i am learning and hopefully it is sinking in the old noddle.


All the best
john :)