Author Topic: SysEx info lost when editing a voice  (Read 1314 times)

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Offline Outof

SysEx info lost when editing a voice
« on: July 07, 2018, 07:55:58 PM »
Hello

My Yamaha PSR s970 keyboard (and other pro yamaha key instruments) have a SysEx number (MSB/LSB/PC) for each preset/voice. As soon as I start editing the sound, I loose this SysEx number. Is there a way to store the edited sound with this information (SysEx) kept?


Right now I can only recall original preset/voices from external equipment. As soon as I edit the sound, I loose that oppurtunity.

So glad if someone could help.
 

Offline Joe H

Re: SysEx info lost when editing a voice
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2018, 01:32:34 AM »
Please explain what type of editing are you doing and what software are you using.  I use StyleMagic software and I never experience the problem you are having.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline andyg

Re: SysEx info lost when editing a voice
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2018, 07:43:11 PM »
Or are saying that when you edit a voice using the keyboard itself, the resulting edited voice, now stored in User, has no Bank Select (CC 0 and CC32) or Programme Change numbers (not Sysex) and is therefore not accessible when using an external device or a DAW?

It's not what you play, it's not how you play. It's the fact that you're playing that counts.

www.andrew-gilbert.com
 
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Offline Outof

Re: SysEx info lost when editing a voice
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2018, 11:08:11 PM »
Well, if I edit a guitar sound and use another guitar effect, I have made a change - and have to save the sound to User for get it back later. As soon as it get there, the MSB/LSB/PC is gone.

(I have turned ON the MSB/LSB/PC info for each voice by the way)
 

Offline Joe H

Re: SysEx info lost when editing a voice
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2018, 12:15:07 AM »
I still don't understand what it is your doing.  If you created a User Voice and load that User Voice it will still load the Preset Voice with the new DSP settings. There will be no new MSB - LSB - PC for user Voices.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline Outof

Re: SysEx info lost when editing a voice
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2018, 07:00:32 PM »
What I try to do, is to access a User voice by programchange via MIDI. When I recall a voice trough my keytar, I can only do this with a preset voice. As soon as I edit it and store i User, the Sysex/programchange number is gone, and also the possibility to recall the voice with my keytar. All other factory voices works perfect.

Can I make my own expansion? I see that these have a sysex number...
 

Offline Joe H

Re: SysEx info lost when editing a voice
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2018, 07:21:18 PM »
You can't do what you are trying to do.  As I explained above, the User Voice is the Preset Voice with new settings.  There are no Bank Select and Program Change numbers for the User Voices. They use the Preset Voice numbers.  It's a modified Preset Voice. 

The User Voice file is nothing more than a Standard MIDI File (SMF) containing MIDI messages to re-program the Preset Voice differently than Yamaha did.

You can't create an expansion pack from Preset Voices unless you have a Tyros 5 or Genos. If you can find some Sound Font (SF2) sounds that will work for you, you can create your own Voices in YEM and install them on your S970.  That's only way to get what you want.

Joe H
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 07:24:28 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline Outof

Re: SysEx info lost when editing a voice
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2018, 09:02:10 PM »
Hello

Thank you for the info. I actually do have a Tyros 5 as well. Is what you are saying that I can modify and do whatever I want with a Tyros voice, and load it into my s970 as an expansion? Or is what I try to do, only possible in Tyros 5?


I also wonder if expansion packs for s970 only operate with own sampels? It should be possible to make an expansion pack for the keyboard that have the modified voices I want? If Yamaha can make them, I guess other can make them as well. As mentioned earlyer: Expansion packs do have the sysex info attached. 

I will dive into YEM, I have never heard about it before...
 

Offline Joe H

Re: SysEx info lost when editing a voice
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2018, 07:51:55 PM »
... Is what you are saying that I can modify and do whatever I want with a Tyros voice, and load it into my s970 as an expansion?

No you can't load Tyros Voices into your S970.

Or is what I try to do, only possible in Tyros 5?

Yes.

I also wonder if expansion packs for s970 only operate with own sampels?

No

It should be possible to make an expansion pack for the keyboard that have the modified voices I want? If Yamaha can make them, I guess other can make them as well. As mentioned earlyer: Expansion packs do have the sysex info attached.

You cannot modify the S970 Voices in YEM... they are locked and this prevents them from being edited in YEM

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline overover

Re: SysEx info lost when editing a voice
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2018, 01:03:23 AM »
What I try to do, is to access a User voice by programchange via MIDI. When I recall a voice trough my keytar, I can only do this with a preset voice. ...

Hi Outof,

you can NOT call up User Voices via MIDI, but you CAN use REGISTRATIONS (Regs) and call up them via MIDI! (Edit: This will work on Tyros2 - 5 and the new PSR-S975/775 models, but NOT on PSR-S970!)

When one of the Preset MIDI templates "All Parts" OR "KBD & STYLE" is activated, in MIDI screen, tab "RECEIVE", the MIDI channel 1 of Port 2 is automatically set to "KEYBOARD".

Now, connect your external keyboard/Keytar to the MIDI B IN terminal of the Tyros5. On MIDI Channel 1 you can PLAY the Keyboard Parts of the Tyros5 in the same way as if you were playing on the internal keyboard.

To switch through your Registrations via MIDI (also on the same MIDI Channel), you have to store ALL the Registration files in ONE folder (on the Tyros5's hard disk OR in User drive) and numerate the Reg files (at the beginning of the file name), starting with 001 (or 000). (The maximum number of files in a folder is 500).

Example: To call up the FIRST Registration file in the folder via MIDI, you have to send "MSB = 0" / "LSB = 0"

MSB         LSB           Reg Bank No.
  0           0 - 127        001 - 128     (000 - 127)
  1           0 - 127        129 - 256     (128 - 255)
  2           0 - 127        257 - 384     (256 - 383)
  3           0 - 115        385 - 500     (384 - 499)

A specific Registration (buttons 1 - 8 ) will be selected, when you send a Program Change message (0 - 7), after the MSB/LSB messages.


Best regards,
Chris


P.S.
You do NOT necessarily have to work with User Voices, but you can also save the voice settings directly into Registrations.

IF you use User Voices to make your voice settings of the keyboard parts (e.g. RIGHT 1 - 3), please keep in mind that NOT these User Voices will be stored in your Registrations, BUT directly the actual keyboard voice settings.


« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 01:59:44 AM by overover »
 

Offline Joe H

Re: SysEx info lost when editing a voice
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2018, 01:43:57 AM »
Chris,

Does that work with the S970?  I thought maybe it was only with the Tyros.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline overover

Re: SysEx info lost when editing a voice
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2018, 01:51:57 AM »
Chris,

Does that work with the S970?  I thought maybe it was only with the Tyros.

Hi Joe,

no, unfortunately, Registrations can be switched via MIDI only on Tyros2 - 5, Genos and on the new PSR-S975/775 models, but NOT on older PSR-S models.

(I had overlooked above that Outof is also using a PSR-S970 ...)


Best regards,
Chris

« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 02:00:23 AM by overover »
 

Offline Outof

Re: SysEx info lost when editing a voice
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2018, 08:31:37 AM »
MAN, this would be THE solution (registrations), but then I do not have a PSR s975..  :(

I have really no plans to upgrade to the s975 due to very very few changes. I am thinking about Genos however, but I am not shure I need such big and expencive keyboard.

At least I think you have helped me to see all aspects of this case, and I think the conclusion is: not possible (at least in an easy way).

Thanks for great help.

I will indeed send Yamaha a message and ask if they can do a firmware upgrade thow.
 

Offline Outof

Re: SysEx info lost when editing a voice
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2018, 01:30:37 PM »
I asked Yamaha tech support if they could "throw" in a firmware update for the s970 since it so similar to s975 (I don't want anything to be unproven), and then do the registration "trick". This was part of the answer, and it seemed not possible, what do you think? Is it possible for shure?

"You say that you can choose REG.MEM via Midi on a S975 - how do you do that ? Because as far as I know, this is not possible, unless you send SYS.EX codes from a PC/Mac seqencer."


 

Offline overover

Re: SysEx info lost when editing a voice
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2018, 01:27:02 AM »
I asked Yamaha tech support if they could "throw" in a firmware update for the s970 since it so similar to s975 (I don't want anything to be unproven), and then do the registration "trick". This was part of the answer, and it seemed not possible, what do you think? Is it possible for shure?

"You say that you can choose REG.MEM via Midi on a S975 - how do you do that ? Because as far as I know, this is not possible, unless you send SYS.EX codes from a PC/Mac seqencer."

Hi Outof,

I do NOT think that Yamaha will add this registration switch option on the S970 via a firmware update in the future. BUT, as mentioned above, the new models PSR-S975 and PSR-S775 definitely DO support this function.

Please refer to page 3 in the manual "How to connect YAMAHA keyboards (Tyros, PSR) with SongBook+":

http://www.baum-software.ch/downloads/OtherManuals/Manual_Yamaha_SongBook.pdf

"SongBook+" is an App for iPad, with which (among other things) the registrations of a supported keyboard can switched via MIDI.

The used MIDI commands are, as also mentioned above:

Controller #0 (= Bank Select MSB)
+ Controller #32 (= Bank Select LSB)
+ Program Change

This works on Tyros 2/3/4/5 and the new PSR-S975/S775.

On Genos, either these MIDI commands can be used (only ONE folder with Registrations can be used, as on the other models) OR one can use MIDI SysEx commands (ALL registrations, in ANY folder on the Genos, can be used). BUT these SysEx are not yet officially documented by Yamaha. This means, currently only "SongBook+" can handle it.


Best regards,
Chris

P.S.
Since the PSR-S975/S775 models have only ONE pair of DIN MIDI terminals, one has to make a custom MIDI template, in which the used MIDI channel of Port 1 (!)  is switched to "KEYBOARD" (in tab RECEIVE), when using DIN MIDI IN.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 01:45:34 AM by overover »
 

Offline Outof

Re: SysEx info lost when editing a voice
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2018, 09:30:33 AM »
Hello

Thank you for your reply.

Controller #0 (= Bank Select MSB)
+ Controller #32 (= Bank Select LSB)
+ Program Change

This commands are exactly what I use when programming my Keytar. I can recall Presets and Expansion voices this way. I don't get what Songbook+ does to recall Registration Memory to Tyros/s975/Tyros in the meaning of edited voices, like what other brands like Roland calls Performances.


I have sent some emails to people selling Genos, and they tell me it is not possible to pick a Registration Memory voice externally, but have to be picked up by the Genos itself. BUT, it might be possible to send System Exclusive information from a PC/Sequencer to choose a Registration – this is not documented a single place from Yamaha, and is officially not possible. 
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: SysEx info lost when editing a voice
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2018, 12:58:57 PM »
Those messages are standard MIDI messages, not SysEx messages. The two Bank Select controls (0 and 32) are Control Change messages, and Program Change is a Program Change message.

The trick about selecting a Registration using a Bank/Program change only works if the keyboard supports the use of a special Bank number for the Registrations. I forget what the Bank number is-- and there may be more than one-- but it should be listed in the MIDI reference section of the Data List document. If your model doesn't list it, then as far as I know you can't change Registrations that way. You might want to look at the Data List for the Tyros or Genos to see how they list the Bank number(s), so you know what you should be looking for in the Data List for the PSR-S models.
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710
 

Offline overover

Re: SysEx info lost when editing a voice
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2018, 01:01:32 PM »
Hi Outof,

GENOS uses a NEW technology for changing Registrations via MIDI:

When a Reg memory button is pressed, Genos sends all needed SysEx (via MIDI OUT) to call up this Reg bank & Reg button from external MIDI device, later.

Songbook+ sends automatically a request to the Genos, when the function "Yamaha Keyboard Link" is used. Then Genos sends the SysEx string for the actual activated Reg button (including the info for the Reg bank file). Songbook+ stores these SysEx to the actual loaded Song title and will send these SysEx again, when this Song (text) is called up in the future (on iPad).

The described is possible because the developer of Songbook + (Matthias Baum) works very closely with the Genos development team of Yamaha.


Possibly changing registrations via SysEx is also possible on older PSR-S and Tyros models. BUT the GENOS SysEx will probably NOT work here, and the original PSR-S and Tyros SysEx for this function (if existing) are not publicly documented by Yamaha, so far.


Best regards,
Chris
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 01:07:26 PM by overover »
 
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Offline overover

Re: SysEx info lost when editing a voice
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2018, 01:35:39 PM »
Those messages are standard MIDI messages, not SysEx messages. The two Bank Select controls (0 and 32) are Control Change messages, and Program Change is a Program Change message.

The trick about selecting a Registration using a Bank/Program change only works if the keyboard supports the use of a special Bank number for the Registrations. I forget what the Bank number is-- and there may be more than one-- but it should be listed in the MIDI reference section of the Data List document. If your model doesn't list it, then as far as I know you can't change Registrations that way. You might want to look at the Data List for the Tyros or Genos to see how they list the Bank number(s), so you know what you should be looking for in the Data List for the PSR-S models.

Hi Richard,

to my knowledge, these Bank Select / Program Change infos (for changing Registrations) can NOT be found in any Tyros User Manuals, except Tyros2 Owner's Manual, page 216 (MIDI Receive Settings):

Quote
To switch the desired Registration Memory via MIDI
(1) Set “PART” to “KEYBOARD.”
(2) Send the following MIDI messages from an external
device in the following sequence.
BANK MSB/LSB: Target Registration Memory Bank File
number(*)
* File Number corresponds to the sorted order of the
current drive. The value of the first file is 00H.
Program number (PC): Target [REGISTRATION MEMORY]
button number (0–7)
Example: When selecting [REGISTRATION MEMORY]
button number 4 of the 3rd Registration Memory Bank
File, the values are: MSB/LSB/PC = 00H: 02H: 03H


I have posted the correct MSB/LSB/ProgramChange values in "Reply #9" above. And as also mentioned before, this will work ONLY on Tyros2 - 5 and the new PSR-S975/775 models (and GENOS, of course, but there one can use also the new SysEx function to call up Regs via MIDI :) ).

« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 01:38:42 PM by overover »
 

Offline Outof

Re: SysEx info lost when editing a voice
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2018, 09:02:23 PM »
Ok, complicated - but I have a clue.

But, does this only work on Songbook+? Unfortunlately I am using Onsong, and it is quite amazing what you can do with it, also regarding MIDI. Today I was able to wirelessly start/stop songs, turn volume up/down, choose previous/next song and much more 20 meters away from my keyboard/iPad only using my keytar...
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: SysEx info lost when editing a voice
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2018, 09:39:43 PM »
The procedure should work with any external MIDI program-- DAW, song list app, hardware sequencer, etc. It looks like the trick is to set the MIDI receive channel to "Keyboard."

I swear I had seen different information in the manuals which mentioned a specific Bank number, but I must have been thinking about the Yamaha synths, which use the same technique for selecting a saved Performance setup (the synths' version of a Registration). On the synths there is a specific Bank number that's used for recalling the 128 User Performances. Other brands use the same technique for recalling user patch setups on their synths, and Casio uses it for recalling user voices and drawbar organ voices.
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710