Author Topic: Editing the Chord Track  (Read 400 times)

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Offline jerrythek

Editing the Chord Track
« on: December 02, 2017, 12:23:50 PM »
Hello all:

I am having an issue I'd like some confirmation on. If I record a Song using the accompaniment system (playing various chords, changing Variations etc), it plays back fine. But when I go into StepEdit mode and choose the Chord Track I don't get the proper information. It only shows 1 bar with a C Major chord, and then an end event at Bar 3. The tempo is even wrong, it seems as if it is just showing some default values (Tempo 120, whereas my Song was at 96). If I now try to play the Song on this screen the drums play for 1 bar and stop, no chord changes, nothing. Yet the RH part keeps playing properly and the sequence plays for the full number of bars.

So it "seems" as if the Chord Track data is not loading properly into the Editor window/memory.

If I go back and select CH1 for editing, it shows all my RH playing, and the correct/full accompaniment plays back, with all the chords, and Variation/Fills.

I've tried this a few times, always with this same result.

Can anyone reproduce this situation? or is editing the Chord Track working OK for you all?

Thanks in advance.

Jerry
 

Offline Wim NL

Re: Editing the Chord Track
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2017, 12:49:49 PM »
Jerry,

Song record, Chord Step Edit mode is another method to create songs.
Only if you had programmed all chords in step edit than you can change chords etc..

When you use easy record the chords Will not display in step record.

What do you want to correct, only the display chord in the lyrics or also the accompaniment events?

Best Regards,
Wim
 

Offline jerrythek

Re: Editing the Chord Track
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2017, 05:02:00 PM »
Jerry,

Song record, Chord Step Edit mode is another method to create songs.
Only if you had programmed all chords in step edit than you can change chords etc..

When you use easy record the chords Will not display in step record.

What do you want to correct, only the display chord in the lyrics or also the accompaniment events?

Hi Wim:

I recorded in Multi-Record, not Quick Record. But I played in real-time. And yes, I want to change a chord quality or two, changing the accompaniment events, to experiment as a songwriter might like to do...  :-)

Jerry
 

Offline EileenL

Re: Editing the Chord Track
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2017, 05:49:42 AM »
Chords will only show in Step record if you have recorded them this way. Just the same as most Yamaha keyboards.

Offline jerrythek

Re: Editing the Chord Track
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2017, 12:34:08 PM »
Thanks for the replies - I've got it. Seems a shame... they are obviously captured, and play back correctly. You can watch the Variation/Fill buttons light/respond and everything. So the data is "in there" somewhere.

 :o

Best regards,

Jerry

 

Offline Wim NL

Re: Editing the Chord Track
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2017, 12:43:44 PM »
Jerry,

There is some sys/ex data there but not from the chord step record.
Its only display chords.

The chord step edit record now only works with the preset styles
Not with modified user styles.
Best Regards,
Wim
 

Offline pjd

Re: Editing the Chord Track
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2017, 07:19:35 AM »
Hi Jerry --

Hope I can explain this one without confusing lots of folks.

Step Recording Chords is good for roughing out an arrangement from a lead sheet. Enter the style, chords and section changes, push the EXPAND button, and voila, you have a full MIDI song where the accompaniment has been fully expanded for you.

Usually I save the "chord track" in a MIDI file before pushing EXPAND. Then I can load the SMF back into the arranger and edit the "chord track."

That's all good news. The not so good news is that Yamaha has (at least) two different ways of dealing with chords and neither the twain shall meet.

The Chord Step Record representation (and feature) is separate from the chord annotation feature which is used to actually display chords as you play. The reasons for this separation are probably historical (going back to at least the QY-70). However, the actual representations of the chord information are quite different.

The Chord Step Record data is saved in a Yamaha proprietary data chunk in the Standard MIDI file. The chord annotations are stored in the MIDI part of the SMF as Yamaha XF Meta Events. A third representation (!) is Chord Control SysEx.

In the mysterious ways of Yamaha, they don't map or translate between representations for us.

Sorry, if all of this is TMI -- pj

Music technology blog: http://sandsoftwaresound.net/
 

Offline jerrythek

Re: Editing the Chord Track
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2017, 02:18:19 PM »
Hi PJ:

Thanks - I completely understand what you're explaining. I kind of surmised as much. Let me be open and candid here. I'm reviewing the Genos for a magazine. I've worked for keyboard companies for over 30 years (Casio, then Ensoniq, and then Korg). I know this stuff very well from a design standpoint, from limitations, and most importantly from long-standing designs that can sometimes make it hard to modify to do what seems "easy" on the surface. And sometimes something was just never thought of, because a feature was designed for one purpose, and the designers never consider a different workflow.

This issue falls into a few of these groups I think. And one of the harder ones is that they are using SYsEx to capture/store some of the information, and no one wants to have to edit MIDI Sys. Ex. to get something seemingly simple done.

During my time at Korg I worked with our engineers to try to "humanize" working with Sys. Ex., and I'm very proud of the way we did it in the M3 Music Workstation upgrade. Let's be real - the Sys. Ex. is representing a parameter that we see on the screen, and it's written in clear English. So if the user wants/needs to edit it, why doesn't the system simply present that name again, with the correct range of values possible? It can be done, we did it for the M3. (See the attached screen shot - events 3-6 are actually MIDI Sys.Ex. - isn't it easier to work with the screen on the left versus the binary data on the right?)  But it's a LOT of code to write and debug for the interface, so there needs to be a clear demand/need from the user base to prioritize that type of work over other features.

I'm not trying to spam the forum, or promote a Korg product here, just using it as an example.

Back to Genos: I actually use Step Entry of chord not to copy from a score/leadsheet, but to be able to experiment with different chord choices and even the amount of harmony used per measure when coming up with song ideas. So being able to go back and change a chord, add a few chords, whatever, is a wonderful way to experiment. Genos allows this to be done, but I think it can be improved to also allow it to happen from real-time recording. And if they were to deal with this issue (and if I'm right that being Sys. Ex. is a major part of the difficulty) then you'd also be able to insert Style changes into the Chord Track as well. Wouldn't that be nice?

Thanks for your informed input, I appreciate it!

Jerry




 

Offline pjd

Re: Editing the Chord Track
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2017, 10:42:40 AM »
Hi Jerry --

First, I've gotta say that I'm looking forward to your review! I enjoy reading your comments and analysis. Thanks for taking the time from your writing to send such a thorough reply.

Needless to say, your suggestions are right on and I like the approach which you described for working with SysEx (and other difficult low-level data) in a "humanized" way. Hopefully, Yamaha will adopt this approach (and other techniques) now that they are free of the old UI and its legacy code. You're right -- it will take more work and effort on their part to craft all of the dialogues.

I'm not much of a songwriter myself, but I see the need to try different chord progressions. Again, your observation is spot on. Since Yamaha are pitching the Genos to songwriters and composers (in addition to its traditional customer base), your observation might encourage them to improve the chord track.

Yamaha received a patent (U.S. 9,142,203) on a method that translates a textual chord chart to an accompaniment. A chord chart might look like:

    Title: AAAAA
    Composer: BBBBB
    Key: CMajor
    Style name: Pop1
    Musical time: 4/4
    Tempo: 120
    [A]
    | C | C F | F G7 | C_G7 C |
    | C | C F | F C  | F G7 C_ |
   
    | C | C | F C | C G7 |
    | C | C | F C | G7 C |

Not that different from chord charts found on the Web.

I mention this because it would be so much easier to enter a lead sheet or experiment with chord progressions if the incoming representation was more compact and musical than the chord track editor in Song Creator.

Perhaps Yamaha envisions the chord chart translator as a tablet-based tool that sends the accompaniment to an arranger workstation? I guess we won't find out until Yamaha finally releases a tool based on the patent. Yamaha's Chord Tracker app can send an accompaniment to an arranger workstation, so the transfer part is definitely do-able.
 
The discussion got me reminiscing about the QY-70. The QY's chord and pattern track inspired me to check out Yamaha's arranger workstations and that got me into this whole thing!

Thanks, again -- pj
 

Offline Wim NL

Re: Editing the Chord Track
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2017, 11:13:09 AM »
Why can I only select preset styles in song creator chord step edit?
I can't select modified styles in Genos.
In Tyros I could.
Best Regards,
Wim
 

Offline JÝrgen

Re: Editing the Chord Track
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2017, 11:19:54 AM »
Hi

About a year ago I wrote my "Backing Track" software at http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/software/btrack/index.htm

This program fetches the chord data form songs shown at http://www.riffstation.com/ - and transform these data to
- Yamaha Song
- MIDI File
- HTML File
- Text File
and to a csv - file.

The quality of the output of my software is 100% dependent on the input from riffstation - This is not perfect... in most cases... But this discussion is not the point right now...

I persuaded Peter Wierzba to create a csv file import feature in his software "Producer" at http://www.wierzba.homepage.t-online.de/producer/producermain.htm

This software will create MIDI songs after entering chords - manually OR a csv file - and style + variations...

From the manual...

Importing chord data from CSV files.

This function is intended for special use only.

Entering chord data into the cells of the chord row is usually done manual by using the mouse. Alternatively it is possible to import this data from a CSV file. Click Extras/ Import CSV Data, and then select the data file.

Format of the data file:

The file contains text lines, where each line defines one chord symbol to be entered in a cell. The chord symbol has to be in the exact format as entered manually. The format of the lines is:

<measure>;<beat>;chord;<chord_symbol>

Example data file contents:
2;1;chord;C m
3;1;chord;D Maj
4;3;chord;F m7

==============================

Maybe you will find this interesting...  ;)

JÝrgen
The Unofficial YAMAHA Keyboard Resource Site at http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha
- since 1999
 

Offline Wim NL

Re: Editing the Chord Track
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2017, 11:41:14 AM »
The resolution is only half beat.
That's not enough for me.
Best Regards,
Wim
 

Offline Wim NL

Re: Editing the Chord Track
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2017, 12:03:46 PM »
In Mix Master 4.6.6 there was Step Record.
After 4.6.6 no more.

You can see there is Step Record Chord and Midi Chord.
Best Regards,
Wim
 

Offline Wim NL

Re: Editing the Chord Track
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2017, 12:05:28 PM »
Best Regards,
Wim
 

Offline Jeremy Bender

Re: Editing the Chord Track
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2017, 03:11:24 PM »
Great to know it is the real and brilliant jerrythek on these forums reviewing the Genos. I assume for US Keyboard magazine. I really look,forward to your thoughts Jerry.

Iíve been a long time Korg player. Ive got an early M3 and serial no 17 Kronos 88. This is my first step into both Yamaha and arrangers with the Genos. Itís great fun both to play and learn. Iím playing very different things given the inspiration from the styles and playlist.

Jerry- this morning I was actually playing your brilliant transcription of Keith Emersonís solo from Fanfare on the Genos using the rock shuffle style as backing. Great to play a GX1 solo on a Yamaha even if not the dream machine itself!

When I have time Iíll post my thoughts as a new starter on this type of instrument. Itís so different to my traditional synths from Korg, Sequential and Moog etc. But I played it for about 7 hours today in the UK as all snowed in!