Author Topic: PSR-e453 DJ Pattern Chord Question  (Read 3456 times)

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Offline simpa_tic

PSR-e453 DJ Pattern Chord Question
« on: August 19, 2017, 12:52:17 PM »
Hello.
I had try my new PSR Keyboard and I had notice This:
When I try to play with Dj Pattern, the Keyboard recognize only the Root Chord (C, C# D and so)
With Minus and "7" (Ex. Cm, C7 or other), my kearbord not recognize this chord.
They are recognize only with the  Style function.
I had try with Easy Chord and the "Finger Chord"...
in Dj Patter, only the Root chord are recognized...
It's normal?
 

Online Joe H

Re: PSR-e453 DJ Pattern Chord Question
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2017, 01:00:38 PM »
Yes, I think what you experience with the DJ styles is normal.  You don't need to play chords because the chord progressions are recorded in the DJ styles themselves.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: PSR-e453 DJ Pattern Chord Question
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2017, 01:34:24 PM »
When playing with the DJ Patterns, you can change the chord progression as far as the key that's being used (C, C#, D, D#, etc.), but not the type of chord (major, minor, seventh, etc.). This is mentioned in the Owner's Manual, although at the moment I don't have the page number handy. I don't know why it was done this way, but it's been like that since DJ Patterns were introduced on the PSR-E433. (The discontinued DJX models also have DJ Patterns, but I don't know how similarly they work to the PSR-E4xx's DJ Patterns.)
Michael Rideout
YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443
 

Offline simpa_tic

Re: PSR-e453 DJ Pattern Chord Question
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2017, 01:50:09 PM »
Ok.
It's little boring. I have a Lead sheet of "Popcorn" and it started with Bb...
I try to find one only mit root chord :-)
 

Online Joe H

Re: PSR-e453 DJ Pattern Chord Question
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2017, 02:45:04 PM »
Ted,

I'm not sure what you are referring to when you say Pattern Mode.  Do you mean the chord progressions of the DJ styles or are you referring to the arpeggiator?

I have posted both the DJ styles with the chord tags in them and also uploaded some PDFs on the Motif arppegiator programming, which uses the arranger chord recognition technology.  Of coarse the Motif XS Arps are far more complex than the PSR arps which I believe are recycled from the earlier model Motif ES keyboard and sound module.

I couldn't find my uploads from before but could post them both here again if anyone is interested.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: PSR-e453 DJ Pattern Chord Question
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2017, 06:53:58 PM »
Ted, I believe another member mentioned that he'd been able to output the MIDI for the DJ Patterns on the PSR-E433 using the Style Out function, but that it didn't work on the PSR-E443. If that's true (I never tried it myself), then I'd guess it won't work on the PSR-E453 either. In which case it might not be possible to determine the preprogrammed chord progressions for the DJ Patterns, other than the ones that were on the PSR-E433. Of course, recording the audio and trying to figure it out might be doable, especially if it's possible to turn off all but one track at a time.

Joe, I think I may have misused the term "chord progression," since musically I guess it refers to the type of chord, as well as each chord's relationship to the tonic? So it's probably most accurate to say that the PSR-E433/443/453 and PSR-EW400 let you change the key that the DJ Patterns are played in, but you have no control over any preprogrammed chord progressions that will be played in that key. And as far as I know, you can't select a minor key-- e.g., if you want the DJ Pattern to play in the key of A Minor, you'll probably need to select the key of C (Major).
Michael Rideout
YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443
 

Online Joe H

Re: PSR-e453 DJ Pattern Chord Question
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2017, 07:39:44 PM »
Hi Ted,

Having never owned an E series keyboard I was unaware of the Pattern Mode.  I took a look in the PSR E443 owners' manual and as you say... Yamaha basically tells us nothing.

But it looks like Yamaha ported over the DJ functions to the S770 and S970 with the 2 LIVE CONTROL knobs that perform some of the same functions as on the E series boards.  For example, Retrigger, Arp Gate time, Arp Quantize and Arp Velocity.

The DJ styles on the S970 appear to work the same way... that is; only the Root of the chord is recognized.  The DJ styles are recorded with chord progressions in each Style Section so you play along with right-hand melody, with the option of turning on the arpeggiator.  The S970 has about 160 arp types to select from. The LIVE CONTROL parameters allow you to modify the right-hand arpeggios in real time.

The arps also follow the notes played with the right hand.  The arpeggiator is a pattern generator of some sort that is usually tied to a Root note and then follows a pre-programmed pattern that will follow our playing.  This is different than the style Sections or even the Multi Pads on the higher-end arrangers, which are MIDI loops recorded in CMaj7 scale that are transposed by some function of the keyboard OS. 

The DJ styles are recorded in either C Minor or A Minor scale (I think) so that they can be transposed by key signature only playing the Root note, but do not follow our left-hand chords like regular styles do.  In other words, DJ style Main Sections are recorded similar to style Intros.  I've never tried to analyze what Yamaha has done because I play by ear and know very little of musical theory.

The mid-range PSR S970 does not have a Pattern Mode, but appears to have borrowed many functions from the E series keyboards.

I've attached the files I posted some time ago... both the DJ styles with the chord tags inserted in them and the docs I found and/or created on the Yamaha arppegiator.   The info you would like to know is probably one of Yamaha's secrets. 

One thing that I've learned trying to create arpeggios for my E-MU Proteus sound module is that to make the arp follow my right hand playing, the arp is programmed to play just the Root note and octaves of the Root (up or down), at specific intervals (bars) and the 32 steps can be programmed with rests and fine note variations as to create a "rhythmic pattern".   

With the Proteus arpeggiator Editor, the Root note is referenced as a value of 0 (zero) editable by semitones ( plus or minus increments of 1 = a semitone)   So setting a note to plus 12 for one step of the 32 step sequence would mean the note will play one octave up.... -12 will play one octave down.  My experiments seem to indicate I can use a plus 2 or plus 7 with limited use that allows a change in pitch.

By programming with just the Root note or it's octaves (up or down) the real character of the arp is the rhythmic pattern that is created that will then follow whatever notes you play with your right hand.  This is the main difference between a "pattern generator" type "arp" and a "step sequence" where a melodic phrase is recorded rather than a rhythmic pattern. 

I don't know if the attached files will be of any real help.  Yamaha isn't willing to share how they do things... I'm sure due to patents and copyright issues.

Regards,
Joe H
« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 08:34:27 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: PSR-e453 DJ Pattern Chord Question
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2017, 08:23:12 PM »
Ted, I don't think that works with the PSR-E443 and up. I did try it once with my PSR-E443 and got an error message. The PSR-E443 manual says that User Songs which are recorded with a Pattern cannot be converted to SMF. I guess Yamaha wanted to protect the Patterns? Or it might be that it has something to do with the retrigger feature, which the PSR-E433 doesn't have.

In other posts where the idea of controlling a style from a DAW or other external hardware/software was being discussed, I've mentioned that the PSR-E433 uses Sequencer-Specific Meta Events to record the style inside a User Song. The PSR-E443 has an additional message that I hadn't been able to figure out, but just last month I finally determined that it's for the Pattern retrigger rate and retrigger event-- the retrigger rate is set with one of the Live Control knobs, and the retrigger event is activated by pressing and holding down one of the Pattern Section buttons. Perhaps the routine which the keyboard's operating system uses to convert a User Song to SMF isn't programmed to deal with those retrigger messages?
Michael Rideout
YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: PSR-e453 DJ Pattern Chord Question
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2017, 12:05:17 AM »
That is really too bad about exporting DJ Pattern data from the E4X3 boards.  I think you are probably correct about it being the retrigger feature, as that seems to be the main difference between the DJ Patterns of the E433 and the newer boards.

Actually, I had a thought about how it might be possible to get around that-- if it's what the problem is. If you record with a Style [EDIT: on the PSR-E443], it also includes the extra event, but its value is set to (IIRC) FF, which disables it. So it might be possible to record a Pattern, extract the User Song to a MIDI file, and edit the extra event to the same FF value that's used for a Style. I'll have to give that a try.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 12:06:20 AM by SeaGtGruff »
Michael Rideout
YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443
 

Offline DerekA

Re: PSR-e453 DJ Pattern Chord Question
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2017, 09:42:37 AM »
I wouldn't quite go so far as calling the DJ styles/patterns a 'sales gimmick' - but it does seem to me that these are not intended to be something that you play a tune along with. So knowing the chord progressions isn't necessary.

You're supposed to use features like the live control knobs to adjust style filter / resonance in real time, switch parts on and off, and maybe add siome arpeggio patterns in order to make some simple dance-ish music. It means that even beginners can make something that sounds impressive (at least to people who are not "experts").
S770
 

Offline SciNote

Re: PSR-e453 DJ Pattern Chord Question
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2017, 07:03:55 PM »
I haven't experimented too much with the DJ patterns on my PSR-E433, so I figured I'd check them out to see what is going on here.

Note that I only checked out the default variation of the E433's ten patterns, and what I found is that none of them sound right with a major chord.  So, since it is natural to first play a major chord when you're trying to harmonize with a background, that might be why you couldn't get the arpeggios to sound right.  If anything, most of the patterns lean more toward a minor chord "feel."  From what I can see, many of the patterns are using a variation of a 7th chord with no 3rd, which itself is neither major nor minor.  So, with such a chord, if you use a "C" note for the pattern, you'd play C, G, and Bb (in any order) with the arpeggio, or mainly use those notes to improv manually, although, like I said, since most of the patterns sound more dark/jazzy/funky, a minor chord often works, as well.  Pattern 10 is an exception, which I'll discuss below.

Here are some specifics for what I found with the ten patterns...

Pattern 1 (Indust Rk) -- You can use the 7th with no 3rd described above, or a 7sus4 chord
Pattern 2 (Trance) -- You can use a simple 5th chord -- that is just root and fifth, so for C, you'd play C and G
Pattern 3 (Minimal) -- The 7th chord with no 3rd
Pattern 4 (Berlin Min) -- This alternates between the 7th chord with no 3rd and a minor 7th chord
Pattern 5 (Dub Tech) -- The 7th chord with no 3rd
Pattern 6 (UK Elec) -- Mainly the 7th chord with no 3rd, but the occasional brass hit sounds like a minor 7th chord
Pattern 7 (EuHouse) -- Alternates between a simple 5th chord (root and fifth only) and a minor chord
Pattern 8 (TrancHse) -- Sounds like a basic minor chord
Pattern 9 (OldSkool) -- Also sounds like a basic minor chord
Pattern 10 (R&B Smth) -- A little bit fancier, alternating between a minor 7th chord and a Major 9th chord (or you can use a Major 7th)

Note that, with all the patterns I experimented with, I did not hear any of the chords alternate away from the root chord for the note that you select.  For example, if you play a C for the pattern, then you may get different versions of C chords (7th no 3rd, minor, minor 7th, etc.), but I didn't hear any patterns automatically jump from C chords to F chords or G chords or any other root chord.  Therefore, if you want to keep things simple, you can just play any variation of the root and fifth with your right hand, and it should harmonize with the pattern.  So, if you play a C pattern, you can turn on the arpeggiator and play any variation of C and G together with your right hand, and it should go together.  But, that might be a bit thin sounding.  So, as implied above, for many of the patterns, you can play a minor or minor 7th chord, and it will usually sound right (again, Pattern 10 is an exception).  And if you are going to improv a melody yourself, your best bet is to use a minor scale for your notes.  So, if you play a C note pattern, you'd use notes from the C minor scale to improv.

Of course, with that 10th pattern (R&B Smth), that's where there is a difference.  When it goes to the Major 9th chord, you'd want to switch your notes from the minor scale to the major scale for that chord (and NOT use the flat 7th -- Bb with a C chord -- for that part of the pattern), then go back to the minor scale when the pattern goes back to the minor 7th chord.  And if you're using the arpeggiator, you'd want to play either a Major 7th or Major 9th chord during that part of the pattern.

Of course, like I said, this is just with the default variations of the E433's ten patterns.  The extra variations, as well as the additional patterns on the E443 and E453, could be different.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 07:40:25 PM by SciNote »
Bob
Yamaha PSR-E433
Yamaha PSR-520
 
The following users thanked this post: SeaGtGruff

Online Joe H

Re: PSR-e453 DJ Pattern Chord Question
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2017, 06:44:47 AM »
If someone has a way to get the DJ styles out of an E-series keyboard I can add the chord tags so you can see what the actual chord progressions are.

Attached is an example from the attachment I posted above.  A screen shot taken in MixMaster List View displaying only Section Markers and Chord names.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Online Joe H

Re: PSR-e453 DJ Pattern Chord Question
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2017, 07:42:50 PM »
Hi  Ted,

I don't think we are the same page.  MixMaster is used to view the MIDI file that's all.  But I added the chord tags from the file you created using MidiWorks and then loaded the MIDI into StyleMagic and had some fun taking a slice of the file (2 bars) and transposed all channels to C major key signature and turned it into a single Section Main A style file.

If the patterns have 5 variations then it seems to me one could create some nice styles from them by transposing them to C Major, or CMaj7.

This one has a very nice beat to it, sure would be nice to get the rest of the variations on this one.   ;D

I edited it so the Pad alternates between a C chord and a CMaj7 chord for some variety.  This took about 30 minutes or less to do.

Regards,
Joe H
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 07:52:21 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline SciNote

Re: PSR-e453 DJ Pattern Chord Question
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2017, 10:44:24 PM »
Glad I could help out!  For something like this, I feel it's just like transcribing a song, and for me it is just easier to play the pattern, see if I can recognize at least the basic chords or harmonies being used, and then try playing along with it to see what sounds right.

I would be curious to see if any of the patterns (including those not on the E433) or variations actually do go off of the root note chord selected to play the pattern.  I remember a long time ago there was a Casio keyboard that had a rock style where, if you had auto-accompaniment switched on and played a C chord, the background would go from C major, to something like either Bb or G major, then to D minor, and then back to C major!  It was a nice beat and background, but of course, if the song you were playing didn't have that type of chord progression, it limited its use.
Bob
Yamaha PSR-E433
Yamaha PSR-520
 

Online Joe H

Re: PSR-e453 DJ Pattern Chord Question
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2017, 05:03:27 AM »
SciNote,

The simple style I created lets you play any chords you want... just as any normal style does. 

So... the DJ Patterns COULD be converted into complete styles with programs like StyleMagic or midi2style if all 5 variations are recorded as song files.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline pjd

Re: PSR-e453 DJ Pattern Chord Question
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2017, 11:21:47 AM »
Hi --

This sounded like a job for Yamaha ChordTracker. So, I recorded an MP3 file for the "R&B Smth" pattern and the "OldSkool" pattern. I played each of the five section twice using the root note C. Then imported the MP3 files into ChordTracker via iTunes.

ChordTracker was too easily faked out by these two patterns. The "R&B Smth" pattern has jazzy changes and ChordTracker had a tough time making the changes. On "OldSkool," ChordTracker didn't get major vs. minor right. Major disappointment.

ChordTracker may be worth a try, but be prepared to put in some ear time and edit ChordTracker's result. It should do a little better with straighter, simple chord progressions.

The edited chord progressions (RnB-draft.txt) are attached.

All the best -- pj
 

Online Joe H

Re: PSR-e453 DJ Pattern Chord Question
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2017, 01:18:21 PM »
pj,

The "30 minutes" includes creating the style.  Inserting the chord tags took only about 30 seconds. 

 ;)

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline pjd

Re: PSR-e453 DJ Pattern Chord Question
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2017, 02:06:37 PM »
Hi Joe --

I get what you mean, but I'm not sure that we're comparing oranges to oranges.

I was curious about using ChordTracker to derive the progressions from an audio recording since Yamaha didn't give us a convenient way to get at the MIDI data for each section of the 20 patterns in the E433+. Also, curious as to how well ChordTracker would do extraction-wise. Yamaha has some real work to do on song audio with more than trivial chord types.

If only we had easy access to the MIDi! It didn't take long to make lead sheets from the DJX styles that I converted way back when.

Yamaha really should publish this info in the Data List PDF.

Interesting experiments anyway.

All the best -- pj

P.S. Gonna be away from my gear for a few days and wish I could experiment some more.

« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 02:08:21 PM by pjd »
 

Online Joe H

Re: PSR-e453 DJ Pattern Chord Question
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2017, 06:13:18 PM »
Wow Ted... I wasn't expecting this.   So now I've got the set of patterns with variations,  I owe it to the PSR E series folks to turn these into styles they can play with their own chord progressions.

Question to you or Michael... What is the style file size limit?   50K? 

Ted,  I could use one style from your E-433 keyboard to be sure I format with the correct Intros, Main Sections, Fill Ins, and Endings.  Then I'll build them out further for the high-end S series boards.

Thanks,
Joe H
« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 06:57:40 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline SeaGtGruff

Re: PSR-e453 DJ Pattern Chord Question
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2017, 07:21:42 PM »
Joe, the maximum style file size seems to be about 50K, but  I believe the exact limit varies slightly based on how much system memory the keyboard has and how it divides up that memory. But if you try to keep it within 50K, it should work.
Michael Rideout
YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443
 

Online Joe H

Re: PSR-e453 DJ Pattern Chord Question
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2017, 07:43:27 PM »
Ted,

So it looks like this:

Intro A
Main A
Main B
Fill In AB
Fill In BA
Ending A

So I played the C Patterns, but sounds like you go up the scale?  I'm a little confused about what you did.  I thought you recorded all 5 variations of each Pattern (?) in each scale.  As noted above, the Patterns must be in C scale for styles.  So I can find them, but I don't hear the variations.  What am I missing?

Oh... I get it.  the Patterns are not 1,2,3,4,5... they are lettered A,B,C,D,E.. correct?  So,  Do you start out in C scale and then go up?

Joe H
« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 07:46:52 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Online Joe H

Re: PSR-e453 DJ Pattern Chord Question
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2017, 10:25:17 PM »
Ted,

Got it now!

I've arranged each Pattern in its own folder and can play them in sequence now to get a sense of how they are played on the E433. Maybe I'll start with the Trance Pattern and see what I can make out of it.  The way you have done it is helpful. 

StyleMagic will let me create a Section out of each variation and then Export the Section to disk.  I can then later "Import" the different Sections to build (compile) them into a complete style. I can also create Fill Ins from what's there or add some from other styles using Style Creator Assembly on the S970.   8)

 ;)

Joe H
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 07:18:50 AM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html