Author Topic: Variation Fill ins  (Read 4173 times)

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Offline PSR FAN

Variation Fill ins
« on: May 30, 2016, 05:05:41 PM »
Hi Guys,

Hope you are able to help me with this. There is this song style I downloaded from this Forum, but I want the fill in of Variation C to play when I press the Variation A button. Is it possible to somehow copy and paste the fill in of Variation C to Variation A.

Many thanks for your help.

Regards,
Varun (PSR FAN)

 

Offline Joe H

Re: Variation Fill ins
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2016, 08:02:22 PM »
PSR FAN,

Yes.  You can do this in Style Creator Assembly.  It is possible to copy any Style Part from one Section / Part to another Section / Part, as well as copy any Style Part from a different style.

How to do this is in the Reference Manual.  You can download it here:   http://download.yamaha.com/search/product/?site=usa.yamaha.com&language=en&category_id1=16277&category_id2=16535&category_id3=&product_id=2059270

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Variation Fill ins
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2016, 08:06:41 PM »
I copied a good instruction posted by a forum member on how to do this some time back.  It is attached.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

HSL

  • Guest
Re: Variation Fill ins
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2016, 12:43:06 AM »
The lack of separate physical buttons for variations and fillins won't allow you to select those freely in any combination you see fit.

This is because they wanted to save some pennies. A cumbersome workaround is to use an external control surface and assign the sysex strings that control the trigger of style sections to some button.

Unfortunately since there are no control surfaces that understand sysexes your choice is limited to a PC (or tablet) you have custom programmed. This is out of reach of most people.
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Variation Fill ins
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2016, 07:33:44 AM »
HSL,

You don't need dedicated buttons.  You are making too much of this. 

It is quite simple to do, sounds like you have never actually tried it.

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline PSR FAN

Re: Variation Fill ins
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2016, 07:37:49 AM »
Dear Joe and HSL,

Thank you so much for your advice. I can't wait to try this on my S770 now.

Joe, that document that you attached was superb! Thank you so very much again.

Regards,
Varun (PSR FAN)
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Variation Fill ins
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2016, 08:13:59 AM »
PSR FAN,

I got your PM... thanks for the comment.

I forgot to mention that if you want to copy an entire Section with all Parts, you can do this with StyleMagic.  It's a s simple a s drag 'n drop.  It's not a free program, but has many excellent and easy to use features... well worth the price I paid for it.

In StyleMagic, you load a style, go to the Sections Manager screen and "Export" a section (save to your computer)).  Then load the style you want to Copy To... drag the Section you want to change to the trash can and then "Import" the Section you just saved to disk.

You can also move Parts around in Channels Manager screen.  In the Multieditor, you can Copy & Paste any part of a style (any bars) to anywhere else in the style. (a very powerful feature)

Joe H

Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline PSR FAN

Re: Variation Fill ins
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2016, 08:57:44 AM »
Hi Joe,

Thanks so much. I i will surely check out this piece of software. I am sure that it is well worth the dollar spent and will pay for itself in the due course of time.

Thanks again. Also, Joe... would you be able to tell me where on this forum can I find simplified explanations/articleson operations posted by members (similar to the word file that you had attached with your message).

I am fairly new to the S series and I could do with all the help possible. ;D

By the way, I absolutely love my S770. Each time I sit down to play it, I discover things that leave me amazed.

Varun (PSR FAN)
 

HSL

  • Guest
Re: Variation Fill ins
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2016, 09:10:14 AM »
HSL,

You don't need dedicated buttons.  You are making too much of this. 

It is quite simple to do, sounds like you have never actually tried it.

Joe H

I tried in every possible way.

Could you please tell me how, for example, being in main A, trigger the fill C and transition to main B?

A well engineered conductor with all the needed buttons, would allow you to press fill C (immediately triggering the fill) then main B (the timing is not important, probably just after pressing fill C, so you can immediately free your hand). At the end of fill C the keyboard would automatically transition to main B.

With the built-in PSR/Tyros buttons and firmware I see no way to have that flexibility. But I would be glad to be proved wrong.
 

Offline DrakeM

Re: Variation Fill ins
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2016, 10:19:21 AM »
Hi HSL

"How being in main A, trigger the fill C and transition to main B?"

so you are in Main A ... you tap the MAIN C  and the fill in starts to play ... quickly tap the MAIN B .. and your done. But I don't think you can do that if you are playing and instrumental of the song, it's ties up your left hand too long. You are going to have to learn how to COPY and PASTE .. in this case the Fill in to the B slot with the C fill in pattern. Then remember to save it as a NEW style and give it a Name.

I recommend making a NEW style for every song you play, if you are going to play the song repeatedly. Then you can save the style in your Music Finder, the way the keyboard was meant to be used. Man, don't fight the keyboard manufacturer, use what they have given you.

Regards
Drake

HSL

  • Guest
Re: Variation Fill ins
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2016, 10:48:45 AM »
Hi HSL

"How being in main A, trigger the fill C and transition to main B?"

so you are in Main A ... you tap the MAIN C  and the fill in starts to play ... quickly tap the MAIN B .. and your done. But I don't think you can do that if you are playing and instrumental of the song, it's ties up your left hand too long. You are going to have to learn how to COPY and PASTE .. in this case the Fill in to the B slot with the C fill in pattern. Then remember to save it as a NEW style and give it a Name.

Drake, I suppose you use the autofill switch on (otherwise tapping on other main buttons will not trigger any fill).

As soon as you tap on main C the fill C will start playing,  BUT as soon as you tap on main B, the fill B will start immediately playing as well, overriding the fill C that just started a moment before.
As a matter of fact you never heard fill C, but only a fraction of it, and then fill B.
To be convinced of that, use Break instead of fill C. The break is usually more diverse than fills, and it is easier to hear if it is playing or not.

Copying and pasting sections of a style here and there does NOT solve any problem, since you still cannot mix and match main and fill variations as you want in real time. In any possible combination.

« Last Edit: May 31, 2016, 10:50:17 AM by HSL »
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Variation Fill ins
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2016, 11:48:55 AM »
HSL,

Since I use registrations to arrange a song, I would create a style variation with different fill Ins if that what I wanted.  Sometimes I use Intro A for that purpose too.  If your hands are quick enough you can press Fill In D then Main C quickly to get the effect, but copying alternate Fill Ins to the style and save as style v2 , style v3 etc, is the best way and use a complete registration bank to program your variations.

You spend too much time complaining about what you can't do instead of figuring out a way to do what it is you want to do.  If Yamaha built the keyboard as you would like it would add $1000.00 USD to the price.

Regards,
Joe H
« Last Edit: May 31, 2016, 11:50:04 AM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

HSL

  • Guest
Re: Variation Fill ins
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2016, 12:29:21 PM »
You spend too much time complaining about what you can't do instead of figuring out a way to do what it is you want to do.  If Yamaha built the keyboard as you would like it would add $1000.00 USD to the price.

250 USD per button? Gold plated? With diamonds?

There are more than 100 buttons on the front panel, many of which useless or pushed twice per year. They simply forgot to implement the right ones.

And since they repeatedly reuse the molds (for the casing), the printed circuit boards, and the firmware, you have to stick with shortsighted design decisions made long ago.

Instead of using totally unworkable "solutions" like the one you described above, I have just written a small program that redirects any control surface buttons (control change midi input) to the sysex strings I want, and hence I can control everything with all the buttons I want.

But, as I told to the thread original poster, this programming work, although simple, is out of reach of most people.

By the way, my USB computer keyboard has ~100 keys (labelled pushbuttons with return springs), a few leds,  USB cable and plug, on board electronics, plastic chassis with retractable legs, and 2 years warranty.

I paid it about 5, that means ~5 cents per button.

I am sure that Yamaha's buttons are even cheaper since most of them are tiny and of lower quality (including poor mechanical feeling, and as reported by some posters even with false contacts).
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Variation Fill ins
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2016, 12:54:03 PM »
Maybe you should design and manufacture your own arranger keyboard... then it will be PERFECT! And you will sell a million of them I bet.

 ;D

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline Fred Smith

Re: Variation Fill ins
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2016, 02:21:14 PM »
Instead of using totally unworkable "solutions" like the one you described above, I have just written a small program that redirects any control surface buttons (control change midi input) to the sysex strings I want, and hence I can control everything with all the buttons I want.

I'm sorry Joe's solution didn't work for you. It sure worked for me. But I'm glad you found your own workaround. Hopefully that made all the complaining worthwhile.

Fred
Fred Smith,
Saskatoon, SK
Sun Lakes, AZ
Tyros 4, Bose L1, Finale 2011
Check out my Registration Lessons
 

Offline tyrosaurus

Re: Variation Fill ins
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2016, 02:22:37 PM »
Drake, I suppose you use the autofill switch on (otherwise tapping on other main buttons will not trigger any fill).


Actually you can trigger any Fill when 'Auto Fill' is not on!

To trigger the fill for the style section currently playing, you just press that style section button once.

To trigger a fill from a different style section, you press the relevant section button twice in quick succession (akin to 'double clicking' using a computer mouse).  The Fill for that section will then play for one measure (or what remains of that measure if triggered part way through). 

If you do nothing else, then when the Fill ends the style will change to the Main section associated with that fill.

However if you press a different style section button just as the Fill finishes, the style will change to play that Main section smoothly without any glitches.  So to play a Fill from a different section and return to the same section, you would press the section button for the Fill twice and as the Fill finishes, you would press the section button for the style section that was playing before.

It sounds more difficult to do than it actually is, and it does allow the playing of any Fill whenever you want, whatever Main section is playing.

Having said this, I have to admit that it would be so much more convenient to have separate Fill buttons for the four fills, which could be triggered at any time with an automatic return to the Main section previously playing!  Just four extra buttons in hardware terms, but a million miles away from Yamaha's logic!


Regards

Ian
 

Offline PSR FAN

Re: Variation Fill ins
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2016, 04:05:28 PM »
Joe H,

Thanks for your help earlier today. Your solution worked for me. It took a bit of figuring out but it is actually quite simple when you get down to doing it.

Hi Ian - Though I agree with most of what you have written, the only problem lies in the fact that sometimes your left hand is too busy making chord changes to quickly double push the fill in button and then once again push the section button of whatever variation you want to play. This can be done but at the cost of missing out on chords which is an ear sore.

Varun (PSR FAN)
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Variation Fill ins
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2016, 04:43:06 PM »
I believe you could assign the 2 foot switches to trigger 2 different Fill Ins if you wanted to do that.  It would allow for some variations.  You could also create Drum or Drum + Phrase Multi Pads that do not repeat that could play as alternate Fill Ins as well.

There are always work-arounds of some sort.  Some are just easier to implement than others.  The more we learn about how our keyboards work, the more we can do with them.   :)

 8)

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline DrakeM

Re: Variation Fill ins
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2016, 09:03:08 PM »
How ever you want to solved it's all cool.  8)

But there hasn't been a break/fill in that  I haven't been able to create and put into the style. It just takes a bit of planning it to set up a perfect song style (with just using the Keyboard).

Regards
Drake
« Last Edit: May 31, 2016, 09:04:16 PM by DrakeM »
 

HSL

  • Guest
Re: Variation Fill ins
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2016, 11:14:10 PM »

Having said this, I have to admit that it would be so much more convenient to have separate Fill buttons for the four fills, which could be triggered at any time with an automatic return to the Main section previously playing!  Just four extra buttons in hardware terms, but a million miles away from Yamaha's logic!

Regards

Ian

Actually only 3 more buttons, since you can get rid of the autofill switch.

Korg has separate buttons for mains and fills (4+4). It is self evident that this is the right decision with the ultimate flexibility. And also the easiest to conceive and the first that comes to mind.